Green Gang Kung Fu

[The Xia]

Shaolin monk Fong Toh Tak is credited with being the founder of the Qing Bang (Green Gang). I remember some mentions that Lohan Men was a popular style amongst members of the Qing Bang. Does it trace back to Fong Toh Tak? If not, does any style?

[The Xia]

ttt.......

[The Xia]

No one knows anything about this?

[htowndragon]

my grandfather was Qing Bahng, but i dont think he knows anythign about kung fu. he had a gun.

[PangQuan]

i know wikipedia isnt the best source but take a look at this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Gang

scroll down to references. one of the references used is Encyclopedia Britanica. So perhaps there is a lead there that you can follow up on.

its all i got though...

[The Xia]

my grandfather was Qing Bahng, but i dont think he knows anythign about kung fu. he had a gun.
Your grandfather must have some interesting stories. Of course not all members would have done Kung Fu. Not to mention, I doubt members that did would give up guns either.

i know wikipedia isnt the best source but take a look at this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Gang

scroll down to references. one of the references used is Encyclopedia Britanica. So perhaps there is a lead there that you can follow up on.

its all i got though...
I have read the wikipedia articles for the Green Gang and Du Yuesheng. Pretty atrocious if I may say so.
Example: " It dealt in high-level Buddhist mysticism and gong fu for mental, spiritual and physical development behind closed doors, which was part of it's attraction to the upper class."
Yeah sure... :rolleyes:
I have done quite a bit of reading on the Qing Bang so the Britannica probably wouldn't have what I'm looking for. I'm interested in the Kung Fu practiced by some members (which I hear was mostly LoHanMen), and if the Shaolin monk founder has a style to his name.

but thanks for responding htowndragon and PangQuan. :)
Do either of you know anything about the information I am looking for? Anyone else is welcome to chime in too.

[PangQuan]

sadly i dont. :mad:

good luck though. its definately an interesting subject.

[The Xia]

Thanks anyway. :)

[mickey]

Hi The Xia,

I was going to ask you whether Fong Toh Tak was the same as Fung Doe Duk. I got a slight confirmation on the wiki entry on Due YueSheng and Bak Fu Pai:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du_Yuesheng


mickey

[The Xia]

Thanks for responding. :)
I remember reading some internet chatter about Du Yuesheng and Bak Fu Pai. I started a thread on that and lkfmdc said that he has done a lot of research on Du and nothing about Bak Fu Pai was ever mentioned. I really don't like that article. I mean look at the sentence after the Bak Fu Pai mention.
"Because of his Green Gang's formidable kung fu and Buddhist Mystical skills, Chiang later hired Du and the rest of the Green Gang to execute all pro-communists in Shanghai, as his government was continually finding itself at odds with the Communist faction of the Kuomintang." :rolleyes:
And I believe Fong Toh Tak is another spelling of Fong Do Duk. I got that spelling from wikipedia. I've heard the name Fong Do Duk outside of a Doo Wai-Bak Fu Pai context (please no one lead things there...). I think Wing Lam even mentions him in one of his books on Hung Gar. However, the credible Green Gang information I've read doesn't really cover much about the origins. But I know that many Triads do trace themselves back to the Shaolin temple so I didn't find that particular piece of information to be out of the realm of possibility. I probably should have mentioned this in the opening post.

[mickey]

Hello The Xia,

I think your unconscious aspect is trying to tell you something.

That sentence you mention may actually be a "gateway" sentence. It suggests that the person who posted that may have been exposed to the lore of an inner tradition. If that person really took the time to proofread that, he might actually remove it because it says something about him, as in "I know something." If you can find out who put that there, you might get more information.



mickey

[The Xia]

Nah that wasn't my "gateway" sentence. I know from history that Kung Fu ties in to Triads. I guess you can call that the "gateway". From there I wondered what the connection to the Qing Bang might be.

I wouldn't put much stock in that sentence. Check out a variation of it on the Du Yuesheng article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du_Yuesheng
"Because of his Green Gang's formidable kung fu and Buddhist Mystical skills, Chiang later hired Du and the rest of the Green Gang to execute all pro-communists in Shanghai, as his government was continually finding itself at odds with the Communist faction of the Kuomintang."
Yeah, sure... :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

wikipedia is worthless....

not only can anyone add or delete anything, but whoever "moderates it" apparently doesn't have to have any knowledte or credentials

I have a masters in Chinese history from George Washington University's Elliott School of Internationla Affairs (3rd most impportant program in country) and ABD in my PhD program, TAUGHT Chinese history at three major universities. Tried three times to edit out the INCORRECT part about Tu/Du being at Whampoa only to have it "de edited" back to the old crap.....

[htowndragon]

wikipedia helps me

500 pages of a book i have to read for US History in college= 1 page on wikipedia

20 pages of philosophy horsesh1t i can't understand= 1 paragraph in wikipedia


so far, its worked great.

[Dr.Harut]

You can watch the movie "Lord of the East China Sea" part one and part two.

[The Xia]

wikipedia is worthless....
That depends. There is plenty of crap on it but it has good stuff too. And it helps htowndragon lol.

not only can anyone add or delete anything, but whoever "moderates it" apparently doesn't have to have any knowledte or credentials

I have a masters in Chinese history from George Washington University's Elliott School of Internationla Affairs (3rd most impportant program in country) and ABD in my PhD program, TAUGHT Chinese history at three major universities. Tried three times to edit out the INCORRECT part about Tu/Du being at Whampoa only to have it "de edited" back to the old crap.....
That's pretty weird. Anyway, with all of your studies and research, do you know anything about the subject of the thread?

You can watch the movie "Lord of the East China Sea" part one and part two.
I doubt those movies will shed light on this topic.

[Oso]

try to find "The Dragon Syndicates" by Martin Booth.

It's about the triads. I couldn't get through it because I thought the writing style sucked. I just checked my copy and there is a fairly large index entry for Green Gang. However, the book doesn't really go into the martial side of it.

maybe Ross has an opinion on the book.

[neilhytholt]

try to find "The Dragon Syndicates" by Martin Booth.

It's about the triads. I couldn't get through it because I thought the writing style sucked. I just checked my copy and there is a fairly large index entry for Green Gang. However, the book doesn't really go into the martial side of it.

maybe Ross has an opinion on the book.

It's pretty well documented about the Green Gang rounding up Communists in Shanghai.

[The Xia]

It's pretty well documented about the Green Gang rounding up Communists in Shanghai.
Yup. It's often called the "White Massacre" or "Shanghai Massacre".

There is a lot of information out there on the Qing Bang. But I can find next to nothing about the subject of my opening post.

[neilhytholt]

Yup. It's often called the "White Massacre" or "Shanghai Massacre".

There is a lot of information out there on the Qing Bang. But I can find next to nothing about the subject of my opening post.

Yeah, I went through a lot of books on the Green Gang and Chiang Kai Shek and Du Yuesheng. They don't say anything at all about martial arts. Perhaps history and political science scholars don't have much interest in the subject?

It was, however, a portion of history that they don't talk about much in school. Even more weird political things have been coming out of recent releases of information from documents becoming unclassified by the U.S. and Russia. It's a huge complicated mess of manipulation.

[The Xia]

Yeah, I went through a lot of books on the Green Gang and Chiang Kai Shek and Du Yuesheng. They don't say anything at all about martial arts. Perhaps history and political science scholars don't have much interest in the subject?
I have seen mentions here and there but nothing very substantial. I agree with you that it's probably not an aspect that most writers would have interest in. But to as a martial artist and history buff, it's interesting. You still have to think though, it is a part of the picture and a good writer should illustrate the whole thing.

It was, however, a portion of history that they don't talk about much in school. Even more weird political things have been coming out of recent releases of information from documents becoming unclassified by the U.S. and Russia. It's a huge complicated mess of manipulation.
What are you talking about here? :confused:

[neilhytholt]

What are you talking about here? :confused:

Just the different financing that was going on and the political actions.

In school and in the media in the West they like to simplify the actions of WWII and the eventual Communist takeover of China and all of that but looking at documents and historical records about funding for Japan, various weapons embargos, oil embargos, etc., it's a lot more complicated than that.

Basically the U.S. and the financiers were hugely manipulative in both funding Japan in China and the eventual oil embargo which led to the Pearl Harbor attack and the arms embargo against the KMT that made the Communist takeover of China inevitable.

Where it gets really weird though is all the spying documents that were later released from Russia. It's hard to believe that there were that many agents in the U.S. govt and at such high levels.

[The Xia]

Just the different financing that was going on and the political actions.

In school and in the media in the West they like to simplify the actions of WWII and the eventual Communist takeover of China and all of that but looking at documents and historical records about funding for Japan, various weapons embargos, oil embargos, etc., it's a lot more complicated than that.
That's certainly true. OTOH, in school, all history tends to get dumbed down.


Basically the U.S. and the financiers were hugely manipulative in both funding Japan in China and the eventual oil embargo which led to the Pearl Harbor attack and the arms embargo against the KMT that made the Communist takeover of China inevitable.

Where it gets really weird though is all the spying documents that were later released from Russia. It's hard to believe that there were that many agents in the U.S. govt and at such high levels.
I know that after the U.S.S.R. collapsed, a lot of documents were released. I didn't know there was much on the Chinese Civil War though. It's important to note that the Soviets' relationship with Mao and company wasn't exactly perfect.

[neilhytholt]

I know that after the U.S.S.R. collapsed, a lot of documents were released. I didn't know there was much on the Chinese Civil War though. It's important to note that the Soviets' relationship with Mao and company wasn't exactly perfect.

Well, the U.S. funding for various groups and oil and arms embargos had various decision makers.

Based upon the likely identities of agents of the Communists according to documents that were released, it would appear a lot of those decision makers were agents or were influenced by agents of the Communists.

It's a whole lot more complicated than that, though, because there was a lot of manipulation on both sides. For example wealthy Chinese paid money for various U.S. campaigns and things like that.

[The Xia]

You know anything about the topic of this thread?

[neilhytholt]

You know anything about the topic of this thread?

By all accounts, the Green Gang at its height included the majority of the about 100,000 or so gangsters active in Shanghai at the time.

It's probably safe to assume the assorted members didn't practice only one single martial arts style, don't you think?

[The Xia]

But I did hear that Lohan Men was popular with them. Anyone know anything about this? (I know lkfmdc mentioned this once)

[neilhytholt]

But I did hear that Lohan Men was popular with them. Anyone know anything about this? (I know lkfmdc mentioned this once)

Here's an article Sal wrote:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1282

[The Xia]

Here's an article Sal wrote:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1282
Good article that gives the reader a basic outline of CMA history. Alas, there is nothing about the Qing Bang in it. Thanks for trying though.

[neilhytholt]

Good article that gives the reader a basic outline of CMA history. Alas, there is nothing about the Qing Bang in it. Thanks for trying though.

Like I said, by all accounts, the Green Gang was a society formed of many gangsters. Gangsters of diverse backgrounds. They say that it was the organized remnants of gansters from different societies that were involved during the Boxer Rebellion.

So if you look at his article, he talks about these societies and a bit about the martial arts they studied.

Do you really think there was just one Green Gang martial art? That seems like a low probability assumption to make.

[The Xia]

No, I don't think that. However, it is safe to assume that the Green Gang members that studied martial arts probably studied stuff that would be found in and around Shanghai. And although more then one martial art would be represented, there might be a few that are particularly popular with them.

[neilhytholt]

No, I don't think that. However, it is safe to assume that the Green Gang members that studied martial arts probably studied stuff that would be found in and around Shanghai. And although more then one martial art would be represented, there might be a few that are particularly popular with them.

Yeah, unfortunately Shanghai is one city that I have never found very much information about in terms of martial arts.

The people I've met from there seemed to be some of the most clueless in terms of older Chinese culture I've ever met. They seemed to really like the modern Shanghai social life. Perhaps this is because Shanghai is one Chinese city that has had Western influence the longest. Supposedly the British had a settlement there since 1845.

[The Xia]

Yeah, unfortunately Shanghai is one city that I have never found very much information about in terms of martial arts.
Beyond Jing Woo stuff, ditto.

The people I've met from there seemed to be some of the most clueless in terms of older Chinese culture I've ever met. They seemed to really like the modern Shanghai social life. Perhaps this is because Shanghai is one Chinese city that has had Western influence the longest. Supposedly the British had a settlement there since 1845.
The Old Shanghai and the modern PRC Shanghai are not the same place. But I guess that goes without saying.

[neilhytholt]

Beyond Jing Woo stuff, ditto.

The Old Shanghai and the modern PRC Shanghai are not the same place. But I guess that goes without saying.

What you're doing looking up on the Internet and books it seems like in terms of history and stuff it probably will only take you so far.

At least from the searching I've done there aren't too many people around anymore that were lineages from Shanghai from that period and the ones that are around don't seem to post much about what they're doing on the Internet, assuming they exist and are still practicing someplace.

If you really want to find out more about the old stories, you're probably going to have to start pounding on the doors of Chinatowns and old age homes, and unless you're Chinese you're probably not going to get very far with that. I've gotten doors slammed onto my fingers enough times to attest to that.

Chinese don't really trust guai lo, and the Green Gang were criminals and outlaws and so even more secretive.

Maybe if you travel around to schools and ask questions you could find some more modern people who will tell you something about the Green Gang. I don't know.

[The Xia]

So anyone know anything?

[The Xia]

ttt........

[buddhapalm]

There is a book called "Policing old Shanghai" or something like that. Talks a lot about the period you mention.

Cheers

[bredmond812]

I read a book series that was rereleased later as a compilation work called: Chronicles of Dao. It was a story whose authenticity i cannot verify. anyway, in it, a young monk named Guan Saihong who was a daoist from Huashan travelled to Shanghai with two other monks. They were going to bring in a rogue monk who had ties to organized crime. Specifically, his girlfriend was some martial arts badass who had wicked palms. Anyway, I read this like ten years or so ago, but i think the party of monks went to see Du. Some interesting things here, which either attests to the ability of any lunatic to write, or just how strange the truth may be:

The author, through the character of Guan Saihung, claimed that Du was a transvestite, and he gave Guan Saihung a mediocre demonstration of Bagua Double swords of some kind (which may have been invented by Du himself based on his experiences with Bagua single sword.)

Im not telling, im just saying. Look it up for yourself to see if it is there, it is about 2/3 of the way into the book.

B Red

[buddhapalm]

That was actually good reading.... the Wandering Taoist Trilogies. Seemed pretty farfetched, but great metaphorical wisdom within. Outlandish episodes such as the Frog immortal in the cave etc. Great wisdom, but in my humble opinion, I think that anyone who really had ANYTHING to do with the Ching Bang Wui (Green Gang) would never talk much about it, and definitely never write about its leader as being a transvestite lol. Think Salomon Rushdie but in Chinese. Hilarious if you ask me.

[buddhapalm]

Side note: I was told that Big Eared Tu was originally a pear pealer. He was such a master of peeling pears with his chopper, he could peel a giant pear in one continious rapid cut. A leader of Ching Bang met him selling his pears and peeling them on the street. The leader was so enthralled by his zen-like cutting style, that he thought, if he can cut pears like that, my god, then what couldn't he cut with his chopper. So he was recruited into the Ching Bang Wui. From there the pear peeler made his rise to fame.

[mickey]

Greetings,

bredmond812,

You are fusing two people together from the "Chronicles" series. The transvestite was called Grey Swan. Du was a separate presence in the book.


mickey

[bredmond812]

Greetings,

bredmond812,

You are fusing two people together from the "Chronicles" series. The transvestite was called Grey Swan. Du was a separate presence in the book.


mickey

haha,

ok, i goofed. i read it so long ago. Thanks for clearing the confusion.

B Red

[buddhapalm]

I guess me too :-o

[The Xia]

What about the Qing Bang and Lohan Men?

[The Xia]

One thing I've never found out much about in reading is the origins of the Green Gang. Anyone know anything about that? I remember reading somewhere that it has something to do with Fong Do Duk.

[The Xia]

ttt.................................