Mystery of The Snake & Crane; Part Deux

[Jim Roselando]

N-Joy:

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=138

Soemthing for you History buffs!

[t_niehoff]

Interesting stuff! Many thanks for sharing it.

Did this legend include the name Yik Kam?

Can you also tell me what you think "hard" and "soft" mean in terms of WCK?

TIA

[Jim Roselando]

T wrote;


Interesting stuff! Many thanks for sharing it.

The more info the better.

Did this legend include the name Yik Kam?

The legend mentions that there was a Woman's style and a Man's style and Leung Jan had trained both. I used my research to analyze the legend and come up with Hypothesis/article.

Can you also tell me what you think "hard" and "soft" mean in terms of WCK?

Body "conditioning" and Power "generation".

[t_niehoff]

T wrote;


Interesting stuff! Many thanks for sharing it.

The more info the better.


Agreed.



Did this legend include the name Yik Kam?

The legend mentions that there was a Woman's style and a Man's style and Leung Jan had trained both. I used my research to analyze the legend and come up with Hypothesis/article.


OK, thanks for the clarification. I was interested to see if there is any other legends that mention Yik Kam (besides from Hendrik's lineage).



Can you also tell me what you think "hard" and "soft" mean in terms of WCK?

Body "conditioning" and Power "generation".

OK, that further clarifies things.

Thanks again.

[canglong]

In the old days, and even today, if people were from different villages (or systems) they would not associate. This sort of tribal mentality was normal for the times. If these two arts had no relations then the chance of interaction would have been next to impossible.
Throughout the history of Wing Chun and Weng Chun these two systems have long interacted with each other.Jim,
Care to clarify this apparent contradiction.
It should be noted that the one set, three sets or loose hands platforms found in the different lineages is not of importance. These are just platforms for development. The content and conceptual design is what really matters and all Wing Chun share these concepts. Here if you had said in my opinion most likely no one would argue with you but since you didn't it sounds as if you are speaking as an expert on all systems leaving your argument open to debate. Let me be the first to say that your argument sounds untrue, unfounded and illogical based on the facts. Firstly, you don't have the ability to speak for all wing chun systems. Secondly, since the forms are one of the main stays being passed on in a majority of systems contrary to what you write they would seem to be very important in every way from the number, the concepts, the content and more.

[Liddel]

Jim,
since the forms are one of the main stays being passed on in a majority of systems contrary to what you write they would seem to be very important in every way from the number, the concepts, the content and more.

I agree,
Someone ( if i remember right -it was couch) once posted that they see the differences in forms between lineages as just differences of emphasis, in flair and choreography...
However for my lineage at least, these differences in forms have a trickle effect creating differences in use and application which also changes timing, circumstance and most importantly preformance IMO.

Far be it for me to say one way is better than another, but differences in forms do seperate the method and goal between those that are not the same.

Im always interested in people like yourself who delve into the history of our art, Using phrases like "legend has it" indeed alot of it is legend so really are you speculating on specualtion ?
How does one know whats what ?
Im rather interested in your reply

[t_niehoff]

I agree,
Someone ( if i remember right -it was couch) once posted that they see the differences in forms between lineages as just differences of emphasis, in flair and choreography...
However for my lineage at least, these differences in forms have a trickle effect creating differences in use and application which also changes timing, circumstance and most importantly preformance IMO.


Forms (linked sets) can only at best be merely representation, and a very limited one at that -- they have nothing to do with application, timing, performance, etc. because they can't. You can show a jab (from western boxing) in some sort of form but that couldn't possibly begin to tell you how to apply it, or give you the timing, or the circumstances or the performance. It's the same with any open skill athletic activity -- you could put a forehand into some sort of tennis form and all it would give you is a basic model from which to begin your own exploration and development.



Far be it for me to say one way is better than another, but differences in forms do seperate the method and goal between those that are not the same.


Yes and no. Forms are represenations, so the forms of different arts/styles represent their respective methods and would "show" different tools. However, within methods - while there is room for variation - we are constrained by function. Going back to boxing as an example, we could come up with different boxing forms (different choreography, for example) but the tools within those forms would *in application* work pretty much the same way because they have too (if you want them to function).

Now, if you took nonboxers, who "developed" their so-called skill and understanding in performing nonrealistic drills -- like "slow boxing" (moving at 20% with no real power) -- and also took silly-@ss theory from other nonboxers, their own "insights" from slow-boxing, and reinterpreted those forms, modified those forms, etc. and passed that down to other generations of nonboxers -- people who thought they were getting application, timing, performance, etc. from those forms -- what would you get?

Just like boxing is not in any boxing form, WCK is not in any WCK form. It can't be. Function must proceed form.



Im always interested in people like yourself who delve into the history of our art, Using phrases like "legend has it" indeed alot of it is legend so really are you speculating on specualtion ?
How does one know whats what ?
Im rather interested in your reply

Legends aren't "facts" -- there is no proof they are true. If there was proof, they would no longer be legends. ;) Speculations built upon (unproven) stories are by their very nature unreliable.

WCK history is essentially lineage, a line of persons that practiced WCK. The only way to prove WCK history is by proving lineage with independently verifiable evidence. If a person can't do that, then all they have is some story. And anything built upon an unproven story is unreliable.

However, these unproved stories and legends do provide fertile ground for which people can project whatever they want to believe to be true.

[Hendrik]

Jim,

Yik Kam Legend?


The facts are:

Yik Kam simply exist and he is my si Jo and si suk Jo's Sigung.

My si jo Cho Dak Seng exist and recorded in various chinese martial art magazine article from various source,

my si suk jo Sam Chan still alive in the 60's at the time I am starting my WCK training. He was living in Ipoh Malaysia and associate with my sifu Cho Hong-Choy.


Not to mention, Yik Kam has passed down writting about WCK and medicine documents .

we still can get hold of these documents via Cho family. Cho family has kept these infor for past 5 generation or since the red boat era.

and the document is consistantly reflect and accord to older documents of Chinese martial art such as the White Crane from Fujian.




peace

[canglong]

Just like boxing is not in any boxing form, WCK is not in any WCK form. It can't be. Function must proceed form. Terence,
Shadowboxing would be a representation of form boxing, so I have to disagree with you. Muscle memory is a large part of being relaxed, natural and a necessary part of acquiring the ability to flow. So I find application in the form of shadowboxing just as I do in the forms of wing chun and they are all very much functional. When you learn how to react naturally you will have acquired a good deal of the requirements to apply the tool(s).
Shadowboxing is an exercise used in the training for combat sports, especially, as its name implies, in boxing. It is used mainly to prepare the muscles before the person training engages in stronger physical activity. In shadowboxing, only one person is required to participate; the participant throws punches at no one in particular. Muhammad Ali once performed a now famous shadowboxing routine next to Howard Cosell for ABC's Wide World of Sports television cameras.

Most boxing trainers prefer that their fighters do their shadow boxing before engaging in any other daily exercise routines. The main purpose of this exercise, apart from getting the muscles ready for other activity, is usually to maintain a fighter's rhythm and show the fighter how they would look at that stage of training against a certain opponent. This could be important as fighters envision themselves facing their immediate future opponents: it usually gives fighters an idea of what is, and what is not, to be fixed.

The activity of shadowboxing usually, but not always, requires a mirror. Fighters may want to do some shadowboxing of their own after their daily routines are over, either inside a boxing gym's ring, or wherever they please to at home without having to look directly at a mirror.

Shadowboxing is not, of course, limited to boxers. Many karate fighters for example, also use the exercise as part of their daily routines, and it was common to see Bruce Lee practicing his kicks in front of a mirror on his films. Shadow boxing with swords and other weapons, referred to as a floryshe, is a major training tool in the Association for Renaissance Martial Arts. It is also common to see drummers using this method to critique their playing style, look and expression.

Fighters of other martial arts also shadowbox as part of their daily training regime. Amateur wrestlers also practice many drills simulating specific wrestling moves without the aid of a partner.
From wikipedia

[t_niehoff]

Terence,
Shadowboxing would be a representation of form boxing, so I have to disagree with you. Muscle memory is a large part of being relaxed, natural and a necessary part of acquiring the ability to flow. So I find application in the form of shadowboxing just as I do in the forms of wing chun and they are all very much functional. When you learn how to react naturally you will have acquired a good deal of the requirements to apply the tool(s). From wikipedia

Shadow boxing is not the same thing as linked sets (forms). Linked sets are a generic catalogue of representations (models) of movements/tools of some martial art and they are not "put together" in a way that even begins to represent genuine application (how one will really move in a fight). Shadow boxing, in contrast, is a personal exercise representing how an individual fighter will move in actually fighting (where one is fighting an imaginary opponent). Shadow boxing actually comes from genuine fighting (in that you take how *you* box and then put that into the drill), not the other way round (where you do shadow boxing and then try to put it into real fighting). And, one person's shadow boxing will be very different (individual) than another's shadow boxing (Joe Frazier shadow boxing does not look like Mohammad Ali shadow boxing).

We can't take true application (fighting) - which is an open skill - and reduce it to a fixed sequence or fixed movement. The nature of open skills is adaptability of the movement. For example, if a person tried to create a form for tennis, they could put in a forehand, but in application every forehand is different -- it is not a shape or a position but a dynamic action that needs to be adjusted and adapted to the moment (in terms not only of form but energy, timing, etc.). A good tennis player could "shadow play" since he already knows how to play.

Linked sets may have been useful in a time and culture where people couldn't read or write, where they did not have access to books, where they did not have vieotapes, etc. and needed some way to catalogue the basics of their method so that they could be retained (memorized) and passed down. But as training they were and are useless. The fact that all modern, functional fighitng method don't make use of them is proof they aren't necessary for the development of high levels of skill.

[t_niehoff]

Jim,

Yik Kam Legend?


The facts are:

Yik Kam simply exist and he is my si Jo and si suk Jo's Sigung.

My si jo Cho Dak Seng exist and recorded in various chinese martial art magazine article from various source,

my si suk jo Sam Chan still alive in the 60's at the time I am starting my WCK training. He was living in Ipoh Malaysia and associate with my sifu Cho Hong-Choy.


Not to mention, Yik Kam has passed down writting about WCK and medicine documents .

we still can get hold of these documents via Cho family. Cho family has kept these infor for past 5 generation or since the red boat era.

and the document is consistantly reflect and accord to older documents of Chinese martial art such as the White Crane from Fujian.


peace

What independently verifiable evidence exists that Yik Kam existed? Writings alleged to have come from Yik Kam? How can this be verified?

[osprey3883]

Linked sets may have been useful in a time and culture where people couldn't read or write, where they did not have access to books, where they did not have vieotapes, etc. and needed some way to catalogue the basics of their method so that they could be retained (memorized) and passed down. But as training they were and are useless. The fact that all modern, functional fighitng method don't make use of them is proof they aren't necessary for the development of high levels of skill.

Terrence,
So are you saying that all martial arts who employ form training as a method of learning the "vocabulary" of their art are in fact unable to fight? If you are that is a very brave statement.
In your profile you identify yourself as a WC practitioner, doesn't your family have SNT CK BJ weapons dummy, etc?

Matt

[anerlich]

So are you saying that all martial arts who employ form training as a method of learning the "vocabulary" of their art are in fact unable to fight?

He didn't say that, though he yet might. He said:


they aren't necessary for the development of high levels of skill.

------


From wikipedia

LOL, and that would be an appeal to the ultimate authority on the subject. :p

Terence, this be a history thread. Do you have to turn everything on the board into an espousal on your opinions of the value of alive training?

That said:

I don't agree with shadow boxing necessarily being movements analogous with how you actually fight. You can do stuff shadowboxing that would get your chimes rung every time in sparring. you can get the same false sense of security from too much shadowboxing that you can from too much forms training. Otherwise, all those people doing Tae Bo and boxercise would all need to register their hands as weapons.

Forms represent a vocabulary of techniques which represent a traditional root of a TCMA. There are no rules saying you can't adapt them to suit your own body and movement patterns or use them as vehicles for exploration. If you don't practice the applications of them against resisting opponents they won't help you learn effective sportfighting or self-defense.

[byond1]

Well, instead of spending 5 hours writing why Weng Chun is a myth, i will make everyone wait for the Book (*Or at least the pre article teaser)

Sum Nung himself has stated Fung Siu Ching practised the exact same system as Fok Bo Chun. The only differance was the method of organizing the Information. Hence YKS called his art Wing Chun. 1 had the archival method with broken down hand forms. The other San Sik.
And Sum Nung has stated very bluntly "THere is no Weng Chun"

THere was no "Weng CHun" Prior to Dai Duk Lan. 3 Differant branchs of Wing Chun, Tang, Lo and Dong, that focused on the Pole and Jong forms, united and changed the character to seperate themselves. This has been independently confirmed by the AWCKRI directly from Dong and Tang Family inheritors. They still trace themselves to Shaolin though~

Cheung Bo used the character "Wing" as do his decendents but used the founder of "Weng Chun " county Bok Hok Kuen as his ancestor::))) And Cheung Bo very likly was a Great grandstudent of Fung Siu Ching, hence makes sence he passed down San Sik.

Cheung Bo, Fung Siu Ching and Fok BO CHuen practised an art called Wing Chun that was a child of White Crane. I have found , more likely than not, the exact form that contributed to the creation of WCK, and will be gradualy releasing information on it. What did Sum Nung inovate with YKS methods?? YKS pionered smaller motions. Fung and Cheung simply used larger movements and circling, exacling like whats found in White crane. Huen Sau is foudn in White crane to. And if you want to see where Tang family and Yuen family LDBG comes from, check out White Cranes pole method.

Male/Female version of WCK is a nice romance, but i dont believe it as if we took the actors, put them in 1 of the 2 groups, they dont have the same method of organization.

Female:

Yik Kam - 1 form - 4 section archival method

Leung Yee Tai - Linked San Sik method (LJ Kulo method)

Male:

Wong Wah Bo - Early Teachings - 1 form - 4 sections archival method

Wong Wah Bo and Leung jans inovations later teachings - 3 Hand forms + Jong

Dai Fa Min Kam - Linked San SIk Method

How and why i dichotomize these methods to each actor will be revealed when the research is released. But the info is being cross referanced across all WCK lineages Currently.

Jim, Thanks for trying your best to put something intellegent together. It was an interesting read, and had some nice jems like the Grip variation in the Gwun. Wait till you see the grip in the White Crane pole>>>>> female here i come~!!

Brian

[byond1]

~Disclaimer~ The research of the AWCKRI, in regards to the Wing Chun Kuen systems that trace their history, root, and source to Weng Chun County White crane, only relate to system stemming from the King Fa Wui Goon Opera Troup members. Leung Yee Tai, Dai Fa Min Kam, WOng Wah Bo, Yik Kam, Go Lo Chung ,ect. Hence Mainland WCK, such as YKS, Lo Kwai, Kulo, Cho Family.

Wing Chun systems, not directly related to the Ban Chung or Opera groups, has nothing to do with our research and i cant speak for them. There are traditions of northern Wing Chun and Shaolin HFY WCK, Pao Fa Line ect, that have a completly differant history, tradition and method , and again is not part of our research.

Jim - Last point - "The Soft Snake style Crane meets the San Sik style Crane family" In my opinion this logic is flawed going out the door! The older San Sik Crane of Fang was the harder Ging.The San Sik Style Crane of Ng Mui ~Was~ Softer crane :::))) and had developed for possibly 5 generations. This was than integrated with an Internal Snake Boxing system by someone(Hint-Miu Shun) becomeing even softer. Perhaps creating something so soft its what Hendrik describes as "Internal" -:confused: Darn! I had debating with Hendrik!!! Than the Soft crane of Ng Mui + Internal Snake boxing Hybred was introduced to the King Fa Wui Goon, and i agree there was either Ng Muis Soft Crane San sik art, or even older Fang Method Hard Crane San sik art, or both, that could have been reintegrated in differant amounts, with the Hybred style (WCK)creating some of the variations we see in Mainland method and preservation.

There is no Weng Chun Wing Chun style that uses SPDM and Male methods. That is simply during Dai Duk Lan period of integration, Lo Familly were Hung Gar boxers. They integrated Hung into the art of Fung siu Ching. This was integrated with the other 2 family methods, including CHu CHong Man who had an art sourced from 3 or 4 differant teachers, creating a modern method. This was than passed on to Sifu Hoffman, who integrated more Hung Ga, dragon, Tai Chi and BJJ creating his own version of the Dai Duk Lan system. So if you see his version, you will see SPDM and Chi Shim looking Hung Ga. If you look at Pre Dai Duk Lan Tang, Chu/Dong family methods, Its......its......Wing Chun::::)))))


Brian

[t_niehoff]

Terrence,
So are you saying that all martial arts who employ form training as a method of learning the "vocabulary" of their art are in fact unable to fight? If you are that is a very brave statement.
In your profile you identify yourself as a WC practitioner, doesn't your family have SNT CK BJ weapons dummy, etc?

Matt

No. I am saying that linked sets have little to no *training value*, that they are merely a catalogue of representations of the basics. Does singing the "alphabet song" make you a better writer? ;) Sure, you need to learn the alphabet, but the alphabet and the act of using the alphabet in writing are two very different things.

If we can put aside the blinders of tradition and our won insecurities for a moment and examine things from the POV of performance, it is clear that linked sets aren't needed to have high levels of performance: they don't have them in BJJ, judo, wrestling, boxing, sambo, muay thai, etc. - all the functional martial arts - yet those people are able to learn the basics without any trouble. So from an afficiency standpoint, why practice something that isn't needed? That's wasting training time.

Moreoever, as I explained above, fighting, regardless of the style or method, is an open skill (look it up) which is characterized by adaptation and it can't be reduced to fixed movements. Models are fine as an example of how something can be done; they are not, however, definative.

And, yes, we have the linked sets too. They are part of the tradition so we pass them on. I'm just talking about their value in the scheme of things.

[Jim Roselando]

Brian,


Thanks for sharing.

Thats the last history/research type article I am going to write. I actually not going to debate it with anyone. Between the Snake Sginature reseach, and this info, I believe its a good place for people to start to look into this art if they like history stuff. It roots us firmly in Two Giants of chinese martial art technology. Fukien Crane with 350 years of written history and Emei Snake with 775 years of history. It also provides some possibilities as to Generation One Wing Chun, Generation Two Wing Chun and Cousins falling into Loocalization Evolution timeline.


Have a good one.

:)

[t_niehoff]

LOL, and that would be an appeal to the ultimate authority on the subject. :p


Since we're being snarky, I'll suggest you look up "appeal to authority". I'm not saying listen to what anyone has to say and take it as gospel. I'm saying to look at the training methods of people who have achieved proven very high levels of martial skill (so obviously their training works), and we see that none of them use linked sets. Isn't that evidence?



Terence, this be a history thread. Do you have to turn everything on the board into an espousal on your opinions of the value of alive training?


And if you bother to actually read the post, you'll see that it was not I who brought up the issue of "training" or the "value" of forms, it was CangLong and Liddel -- I responded to their comments. Could I have let it pass? Sure. I understand that repetition can be tiresome. I sure get tired hearing the same nonsense spewed. ;) But my POV is that when I hear a discussion going along "blah, blah, blah, blah, bigfoot, blah, blah, blah", I'll interrupt and say "Bigfoot? There is no such thing." Of course, then I hear, "There goes Terence again ranting on about there being no Bigfoot." ;)



That said:

I don't agree with shadow boxing necessarily being movements analogous with how you actually fight. You can do stuff shadowboxing that would get your chimes rung every time in sparring. you can get the same false sense of security from too much shadowboxing that you can from too much forms training. Otherwise, all those people doing Tae Bo and boxercise would all need to register their hands as weapons.


Once again, I'll ask you to reread what I said, and more closely this time. I said that the fighting is first, then people take that experience and put it into their shadow boxing, not the other way round.



Forms represent a vocabulary of techniques which represent a traditional root of a TCMA. There are no rules saying you can't adapt them to suit your own body and movement patterns or use them as vehicles for exploration. If you don't practice the applications of them against resisting opponents they won't help you learn effective sportfighting or self-defense.

Is WCK or any martial art different than any other sport/atheltic activity? Why don't we have linked sets for tennis, basketball, boxing, wrestling, etc.? Couldn't a tennis form "represent a vocabularly of techniques" you need to play tennis? Would this provide any advantage to a tennis player-trainee?

It wouldn't make good sense to create or practice a tennis linked set. First, it wouldn't be necessary to the development of good tennis skill -- and similarly neither are the WCK forms. Second, it would really be counter-productive since tennis, like fighting, is an open skill, and any model used in a form would be essentially an exception rather than the rule (as every forehand is different). Practicing to move one way and then doing another is not a productive way to train.

I'm not saying that models don't have their place -- they clearly do in terms of our learning. But once we learn it, we no longer need the model. Yes, we'll use the model as a starting point from which to develop our own way of doing whatever it is but our own way will vary from the model. And, equally important, is that the model is not "the thing", but only a representation of the thing. When you do a tan sao in the form, you are not really doing a tan sao, you are only performing a fixed representation of that movement. All the "stuff" that really goes into a tan sao in application is not present (like swinging a racket in the air -- so much more goes into a real tennis stroke).

[Knifefighter]

Terence,
Shadowboxing would be a representation of form boxing, so I have to disagree with you. Muscle memory is a large part of being relaxed, natural and a necessary part of acquiring the ability to flow. So I find application in the form of shadowboxing just as I do in the forms of wing chun and they are all very much functional. When you learn how to react naturally you will have acquired a good deal of the requirements to apply the tool(s). From wikipedia

Muscle memory and being relaxed are context specific. Running through forms trains your muscle memory and teaches you to be relaxed while doing the forms only.

Developing muscle memory and relaxation for fighting comes from experience in fighting.

The Dog Brothers stick fighters have a saying for this:
"Higher consciousness through harder contact."

[t_niehoff]

Muscle memory and being relaxed are context specific. Running through forms trains your muscle memory and teaches you to be relaxed while doing the forms only.

Developing muscle memory and relaxation for fighting comes from experience in fighting.

The Dog Brothers stick fighters have a saying for this:
"Higher consciousness through harder contact."

IME, almost everything pertaining to the martial arts is context (intensity) specific. This is why unrealistic (context) practice, while necessary to learn, will never develop significant skills in a realistic context.

[Hendrik]

Jim, Brian,


Great start, however since you both have not seen the other red boat set of Cho family such as the arrow punch and the Chui Da or the Jeet Kuen set or the Chi Sau Long. I think that is another direction we would like to look into.... and may be there is no Female or Male .... but all is one?


Also, what is hard? what is soft? that got to be clearly define otherwise it is just word without meaning.

And what is the join force inch power of white crane ?

Also, Ng Mui if according to the White Crane people, they rank Ng Miu as some one live in late 1700 era.


Also, there is an evolution of White Crane on the end of 1700 era....


So, there are lots of direction need to look at.

Not to mention, forsue, using the hip is not a major signiture of power generation of White Crane,. there are horizontal and vertical power and .....etc which even if we brought it up today it will energize one's power in WCK over night. IMHO.

So, until that level of understanding is comprehend and know, books reading and posture comparison doesnt really contribute much.



Best Regards
Hendrik

[Hendrik]

What independently verifiable evidence exists that Yik Kam existed? Writings alleged to have come from Yik Kam? How can this be verified?




Rational thinking is excellent.

HOwever, Rational thinking become a blockage when one doesnt know what is the limit of the nature of rational thinking.


My answer is waiting for you when you could transcent the limit of your rational thinking.

Until then have a sweet rational/resonable/critic thinking mind set dream.

rationalized for a reason why you will wake up tomorrow morning. and does that reason matter if you wake up or what if you dont (which for most of us will happen one day in the next 50 years forsure, where we will never wake up after that last day. so rationalize and plan and calculate which day is your last day and see if your rational mind make any sense? )

[Hendrik]

Muscle memory and being relaxed are context specific. Running through forms trains your muscle memory and teaches you to be relaxed while doing the forms only.

Developing muscle memory and relaxation for fighting comes from experience in fighting.
"

Yes, external training is doing that.

however,

Internal training is doing the opposite, let go and let it goes back to the nature and let it flow.

[t_niehoff]

Rational thinking is excellent.

HOwever, Rational thinking become a blockage when one doesnt know what is the limit of the nature of rational thinking.


My answer is waiting for you when you could transcent the limit of your rational thinking.

Until then have a sweet rational/resonable/critic thinking mind set dream.



Ahhhh . . . the appeal to other ways of knowing. Maybe in your heart you just know or maybe it came to you in a dream/vision or maybe . . . . When people don't need evidence to believe something, and accept it on faith, there can be no "reasonable" discussion since obviously for that person reason doesn't matter (they believe for reasons outside of rational thought).

Hendrik "knows" and this knowing is not based on evidence or rational thinking, and he can't demonstrate it with evidence or explain it rationally. Only when we transcend to Hendrik's plane, the plane where logic, rational thought, real evidence, etc. no longer matter can we begin to understand. Apparently Hendrik's answer is awaiting my senility.

[t_niehoff]

Yes, external training is doing that.

however,

Internal training is doing the opposite, let go and let it goes back to the nature and let it flow.

Here's what you do: go down to a local MMA gym and have a good grappler get you in a headlock. Then let "Nature" take over and "let it flow" and see where it gets you. It will get you to the same place it got you when Rene choked you out.

The only way to learn and develop the ability to be relaxed and move effectively (including flow) when dealing with an opponent with high levels of aggression, attributes, and skill is by doing it. It comes from experience, nothing else. There are no such things as internal training and external training -- there is just training. You determine the effectiveness of your training by your (increased) performance ability.

[Hendrik]

The only way to learn and develop the ability to be relaxed and move effectively (including flow) when dealing with an opponent with high levels of aggression, attributes, and skill is by doing it. ----

True.

How and is it only one way?

that is the question.

and How to measure it in term of brainwave and heart rythem is the first step.




It comes from experience, nothing else. ------

Sure,
and how to measure experience?





There are no such things as internal training and external training -- there is just training. -------



Sure, there is your reality.

But not according to the chinese which using these type of catagorization for past few hundred years.




You determine the effectiveness of your training by your (increased) performance ability.------


What is your EEG handling?

What is your HRV handling?

Until you got those basic stuffs, how do you even measure effectiveness ? not to mention the more demanding case while in action.

[Hendrik]

Ahhhh . . . the appeal to other ways of knowing. Maybe in your heart you just know or maybe it came to you in a dream/vision or maybe . . . . When people don't need evidence to believe something, and accept it on faith, there can be no "reasonable" discussion since obviously for that person reason doesn't matter (they believe for reasons outside of rational thought).

Hendrik "knows" and this knowing is not based on evidence or rational thinking, and he can't demonstrate it with evidence or explain it rationally. Only when we transcend to Hendrik's plane, the plane where logic, rational thought, real evidence, etc. no longer matter can we begin to understand. Apparently Hendrik's answer is awaiting my senility.


you have too many may be and too many speculation.

Could your rational mind tell you what is your EEG and HRV reading?




In fact, I am the one who brought up EEG and HRV measurement.

Do you know your EEG and HRV?

Until then hahaha who is day dreaming?




And also, could you use your own rational mind set way to prove to us here that you great great great great great great grandfather exist?









Let me tell you from another rational mind set, on viewing a certain person in this forum.



1, one were very proud of oneself WCK.

2, Got defeat by the BJJ or MMA

3, Traumtized (sp?) but trying to deny the defeat because of lost face.

4, start thinking and place blame on others, and thinking one is the victim of that not good WCK training.

5, start act paranoid and trying to play savior of WCK --- to police and trying to comform everyone's ancestors and traditional technology disregard of one have no idea on the subject one talk about.

in the same time down play WCK to show one know it all. In fact how much do one know about TCMA? very little.


So, what is the issue?

Fail to take responsible for one own life. for EGO and Face is so important. if one screw up that is other's fault.



if fact, rationally, what the heck, defeat is a defeat.

rationally, this person is just dont have the gut to admit his own weakness and take responsibilities for himself. You see, policing and down play others is not going to get this person where he would like to be --- past could not be changed and his defeat, unless he let it go, it is always there as soon as he hold on to it. But his "rational mind" is not rational enought to know he is not rational.



Freedom start from letting go. That he dont know.

Thus, his defeat continous to looping in his mind and haunt him. and there is not end to it. This is what the Buddhist called it Wu Cien Dao or Neraka. The hell of no time intervall. For there is no ending in this loop. until one let it go.





You love to fight and learn about fighting, Go ahead learn as much as you can.

I love to have peace. So, now I let it Go.

are you rational or am I rational?

hahaha that you figure it out if you know how to transcent the limit of your rational mind. and BTW, EEG will show if you could do that. and that is the basic of using or handling the INTENTION. very basic.

[t_niehoff]

The only way to learn and develop the ability to be relaxed and move effectively (including flow) when dealing with an opponent with high levels of aggression, attributes, and skill is by doing it. ----

True.


Yes, I know. And you'll find everyone who can do it had developed that ability by doing it.



How and is it only one way?

that is the question.


You can find the answer by doing it.



and How to measure it in term of brainwave and heart rythem is the first step.


Wrong. Like anything else in life, we get better at it, and more relaxed doing it, by doing it. With skill comes relaxation, and skill comes from experience doing it.



It comes from experience, nothing else. ------

Sure,
and how to measure experience?


How about the amount of time you actually do it? How much time have you spent fighting with WCK? That is your experience level. Want to know the quality of that experience? It's the level of your opponents. There you go. :)




There are no such things as internal training and external training -- there is just training. -------

Sure, there is your reality.

But not according to the chinese which using these type of catagorization for past few hundred years.


I hate to be the one to break this to you, but there is only one reality.

Yes, you are quite right that the chinese have used that categorization for hundreds of years. People believed the world was flat too for hundreds of years. They were both wrong. Should I continue to insist the world is flat because my ancestor's thought that way?



You determine the effectiveness of your training by your (increased) performance ability.------


What is your EEG handling?

What is your HRV handling?

Until you got those basic stuffs, how do you even measure effectiveness ? not to mention the more demanding case while in action.

I punch you and you fall down. Effective. How do we measure performance in any sport or athletic activity? They don't seem to have a problem doing it -- even without EEG and HRV (LOL!). BJJ has a performance-based grading system. It's easy enough if people do the activity.

If anyone wants to know how to develop athletic skill, what is simpler than looking to what good athletes actually do? WCK is an athletic skill. Train like any successful combative athlete. Want to know how not to develop athletic skill? Don't train that way. The EEG, HRV stuff is silly.

[Hendrik]

I punch you and you fall down. Effective. ---


Sure, buy a bazoka, just use a finger to triggle to blow up even a big rock.

can your punch do what the bazoka did just being triggle by a finger?

Until then, your puch is not good enough and you have no idea about your limit. your punch could never ever ever beat the fire arm.

[t_niehoff]

you have too many may be and too many speculation.

Could your rational mind tell you what is your EEG and HRV reading?


No, but my rational mind tells me someone is in need of medication. ;)



In fact, I am the one who brought up EEG and HRV measurement.

Do you know your EEG and HRV?

Until then hahaha who is day dreaming?


Maybe I should wear a tin foil helmet too? That way the aliens won't be able to control my mind.



And also, could you use your own rational mind set way to prove to us here that you great great great great great great grandfather exist?


There is no doubt that everyone has a genuine "great great great great great great grandfather" -- but how do we know who specifically that person was? Just because someone created WCK, doesn't mean it was Ng Mui. Geneology is very demanding in terms of finding proof. In WCK, we just need stories.




Let me tell you from another rational mind set, on viewing a certain person in this forum.


Let me guess . . . is it me? ROFLOL!



1, one were very proud of oneself WCK.

2, Got defeat by the BJJ or MMA

3, Traumtized (sp?) but trying to deny the defeat because of lost face.

4, start thinking and place blame on others, and thinking one is the victim of that not good WCK training.

5, start act paranoid and trying to play savior of WCK --- to police and trying to comform everyone's ancestors and traditional technology disregard of one have no idea on the subject one talk about.


Not quite. Not so proud of myself. Have been beaten lots of time (almost every day -- hence why I am not so proud of myself). Don't blame or credit anyone for my performance but me. This is the process everyone must go through to get better. Have enough experience to recognize BS when I hear it. Don't want to save anyone, either. But I'll point out the BS when I hear it.

If your training methods work and produce good results (better WCK fighters), just show us. I can't argue with results. How far would I get saying "Hey, Ramon Dekkers, your training methods stink!"? LOL! They've produced a world-class fighter. What have your "traditional training methods" produced? Take your camcorder down to MMA gym, mix it up with those guys, and tape it. If it produces good results, I'll be on-board with you. But you can't show me through EEGs and HRVs that you can deal with a decent fighter.



So, what is the issue?

Fail to take responsible for one own life. for EGO and Face is so important. if one screw up that is other's fault.

if fact, rationally, what the heck, defeat is a defeat.

rationally, this person is just dont have the gut to admit his own weakness and take responsibilities for himself. You see, policing and down play others is not going to get this person where he would like to be --- past could not be changed and his defeat, unless he let it go, it is always there as soon as he hold on to it. But his "rational mind" is not rational enought to know he is not rational.

Freedom start from letting go. That you dont know.

Thank you for the pseudo-psychoanalysis. When you can't provide evidence and can't explain or defend something rationally, you attack me personally with your bizarre psychology. I understand -- what else can you do? People resort to this sort of thing when they have nothing of any substance to offer.

[t_niehoff]

I punch you and you fall down. Effective. ---


Sure, buy a bazoka, just use a finger to triggle to blow up even a big rock.

can your punch do what the bazoka did just being triggle by a finger?

Until then, your puch is not good enough and you have no idea about your limit. your punch could never ever ever beat the fire arm.

Never said it could -- only that it was effective as a punch. You asked me how to measure effectiveness, and I told you. What you can't do is measure the effectiveness of a punch with EEGs or HRVs.

[Knifefighter]

I punch you and you fall down. Effective. ---


Sure, buy a bazoka, just use a finger to triggle to blow up even a big rock.

can your punch do what the bazoka did just being triggle by a finger?

Until then, your puch is not good enough and you have no idea about your limit. your punch could never ever ever beat the fire arm.

LOL @ thinking a punch will equal a bazooka (they don't still use those, do they?).

What's even funnier is thinking that measuring EEGs or HRVs will make that happen.

[Hendrik]

LOL @ thinking a punch will equal a bazooka (they don't still use those, do they?).

What's even funnier is thinking that measuring EEGs or HRVs will make that happen.



it is always funny to notice some one doesnt know how to read and comprehend. may be the EEG is so screw up due to got beat too many time on the head? :D

[t_niehoff]

it is always funny to notice some one doesnt know how to read and comprehend. may be the EEG is so screw up due to got beat too many time on the head? :D

Hendrik, you wrote:

"can your punch do what the bazoka did just being triggle by a finger?

Until then, your puch is not good enough "

I think we can read and conprehend just fine.

[anerlich]

Since we're being snarky, I'll suggest you look up "appeal to authority".

If you took your own advice and read before posting in reply, you'd see my Wikipedia crack was made in response to canglong, not you.

I know what "appeal to authority" means. How about you look up "ideas of reference"?


I'm not saying listen to what anyone has to say and take it as gospel.

As if. :p Maybe you need to look up "delusions of grandeur" as well.

[anerlich]

it is always funny to notice some one doesnt know how to read and comprehend

How about someone who writes quasi-mystical gibberish and tries pass it off as profundity?

[Hendrik]

How about someone who writes quasi-mystical gibberish and tries pass it off as profundity?

Fair comment.

and

to be real honest to ourself, who is perfect?

why not focus on the subject and everyone contribute positively from different person's perspective?

[t_niehoff]

If you took your own advice and read before posting in reply, you'd see my Wikipedia crack was made in response to canglong, not you.


My bad, and I apologize. That was clear when I reread it.



As if. :p Maybe you need to look up "delusions of grandeur" as well.

Don't worry, even if I had delusions, they wouldn't be of granduer -- when you roll/train with guys 20 years your junior (as I know you do too) there is no granduer to it! :)