Internal styles????????

[sultanpro]

The only styles i know are Taijiquan, and Baguazhang, but i dont really know anything about
them, can someone give me some info on internal styles, or point me in the right direction.

I would like to train in an internal art but i need to know my options.

Thanks

Skard

Its not what goes in a man that defile's him, its what comes out.

[Eight Diagram Boxer]

http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/martart/wushu/bagua.html

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/index

do some searching, you'll find plenty of info

[EARTH DRAGON]

you question is a little broad and very hard to answer due to the fact that I am not sure what your goals are so it will be hard from people to give you advice. If you do a little research on internal styles and have an idea what it is you are looking for then it may be easier to help you or point you in the right direction. You see its like asking I want to take martial arts what style should I study? way to broad of a subject to narrow down. I wish you luck in your findings

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[dedalus]

I wish I had an entry-level background in xingyi instead of wing chun. Xingyi is a relatively simple but absolutely devastating fighting art, and you could choose to stick it out to mastery (as a complete system) or use it as a springboard into bagua and taiji. I've only practised the 5 fists in xingyi (and focus on bagua) but even that small-looking syllabus is packed with information about internal work.

There are some clips you could download to compare the three arts from Mike Patterson's site (http://www.hsing-i.com)

They're all amazing arts, but keep in mind that you may have to do a lot of "cup emptying" to get the most out of them.

[Gluteus Maximus]

- Dedalus -

. . . good link - thanks, very interesting site.

It seems Bagua is a lot more popular than Xingyi. Do you know why this is? You mention that it is relatively simple. Could this be the reason perhaps, i.e. could it be that people perceive Bagua and Taiji to have more to offer in some way? Also, many people seem to learn Bagua and Taiji concurrently, and some also learn Xingyi at the same time as the other two. All 3 being internal, are the principles of each compatible with each other to the extent that all 3 can effectively be learnt at the same time?


- ScarbroMantis -

. . . one other internal art is Yiquan (mind boxing), which is a derivative of Xingyiquan (mind form boxing).

As the name implies, it has done away with traditional moving forms (apart from an advanced type of free-form expression called 'health dance'), and is based on standing post meditation' (Zhang zhuang) which cultivates internal strength. There are two types of Zhang zhuang - Yangshengzhuan (health preservation standing post meditation) and Jijizhuang (combat standing post medtitation), which are taught first. These are followed by Shili (testing force), Mocabu (rubbing step), Fali (shooting out strength), Shishen (testing voice), Tuishou (push hands) and Shizuo, or San Shou (combat).

It was developed by Wang Xiangzhai of Henan Province, China, in the mid-1920s. A lot of really excellent stuff has been written on this forum about Yiquan by Li Jiong.

Cheers,

Max

Yooby Yoody

[dedalus]

I don't know why bagua seems to be more popular... or if it actually is (maybe a false conclusion based on who posts here?). I think there is some element of xingyi being less visually appealing to an uninitiated bystander, but when I look at it now I see incredible power and advanced technique - at least compared to any non-internal arts I've seen (and of course I ain't seen 'em all ;-)

I think that the three internal arts are compatible in a certain way... they all tend to use similar body mechanics and generate power by linking movement to dantien, but at the same time you have to break bagua rules to do taiji, and vice versa. In some ways that's a good exercise I suppose, but then again the better exponents eventually seem to settle on one of the three arts to become deeply specialised in.

Personally I find the cross-fertilisation process beneficial, but I'm not sure how long that will continue for, and even so I tend to focus on bagua more than taiji. I'm sure my taiji has some bagua corruptions (like the urge to pivot on the foot rather than to lift it and place it back down), and I don't really think people can develop high-level, combat worthy taiji if they train it as an aside to another style (like many external stylists do). I suppose the other problem with training all 3 is that each takes a lot of time and effort to learn!

[Gluteus Maximus]

Dedalus

Thanks for the informative reply.

Yes, I did base my perception of Bagua being more popular than Xingyi on the amount of posts I see on this forum, which could well have led to a false conclusion on my part.

I haven't seen Xingyi in action but have seen some Bagua and Taiji. I'll look forward to downloading some of those MPEGs off the website you gave the link to, once I have a few spare hours of net time.

Cheers,

Max

Yooby Yoody

[Crimson Phoenix]

I second dedalus...You know, to study Xingyi seriously you have to be really dedicated, and you have to be ready to train the same move for months and months...the external technique is secondary and you train the inner principles, but since Xingyi is technically "simple" and "straightforward" (the brackets reflects that it is a simplification for the sake of clarity), it can get really really boring for some people to train only the five fists over and over again for three years...in bagua it isn't as obvious, because the techniques are more varied, but in the end you come to the same point where you realize that you'll have to practice over and over again wether you enjoy it orr not to get some real benefits...you just realize later in bagua than in xingyi, which might help making this art a little less popular...but when you caught the inner jing, the inner trick, then techniques can bloom and you can apply this to everything and that is when the arts get interesting...my bagua teacher often tells me: "first, internal arts are harsh and boring...the body wants to move, the mind wants diversity, the internal ways are much different from everyday moves and your own habits get challenged, which your ego doesn't like...but when you caught the inner trick and can apply it to the practice, then everyday you get deeper, there is no limit, deeper and deeper, thousand techniques are born, you are delighted by every move...but until then it will be boring and harsh...so keep training and be patient!!"
If you can, you should train Jiang's Xingyi baguazhang?? It's baguazhang with xingyi stuffs mixed in it, it's all good!

[sultanpro]

Thanks for all the info, im trying to find an internal system to train with my 7 star mantis
i've really been thinking about Taijiquan, because
thats all i can find in my area.

Eight Diagram- Thanks for the sites thats just what i was looking for!

E.D.- Thanks for nothing!!

Its not what goes in a man that defile's him, its what comes out.

[HuangKaiVun]

Why do you feel that seven-star mantis doesn't fulfill your "internal" appetite, SkarbroMantis?

[Repulsive Monkey]

Maybe one of the reasons why Taiji and Bagua are more popular than Hsing-I might be because that Hsing-I is considered to be more external than the other two. Although all three are considered Sister arts of the Internal method, Hsing-I does tend a bit towards the external more so.

[blacktaoist]

Skarbromantis, i see you live in Toronto,cool i use to live out there in 98" I know a lot of good teachers in baguazhang out there.

There is Andy James that teach baguazhang on 179 danforth ave,ontario canada his number is 416) 465-6122 you should go vist him, i been to his school a few times, he train his students real hard, HE have a lot of real knowledge in baguazhang. I never crosshands with the man, but there was no need, because most of his students that i met were goood fighters in baguazhang.


There is also Eric Tuttle, i never got the time to met and vist him, but a friend of my's told me he was very good. I know he lives some where in kingston,ontario give him a call, (613) 542-9025 peace. May you find what you are looking for in the tao.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I WAS trying to help you but your welcome anyway. To bad we can't be freinds (though I dont know why) but I come to T.O quite a lot to see my kung fu freinds, get herbs and bring chinese pillows from my teachers factory to many shrfu's in ontario maybe even yours?

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[sultanpro]

Huang Kai Vun- Right now i have a good amount of free time on my hands so i would like to take advantage and try some internal training, not saying Mantis is not enough but, you can never
have to much.

The Black Taoist- Thank you very much, i called Andy today on my lunch break, im going to check him out sometime this week.

Skard One

Its not what goes in a man that defile's him, its what comes out.

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'm sure my taiji has some bagua corruptions (like the urge to pivot on the foot rather than to lift it and place it back down), and I don't really think people can develop high-level, combat worthy taiji if they train it as an aside to another style (like many external stylists do). I suppose the other problem with training all 3 is that each takes a lot of time and effort to learn!
[/quote]

I'll let you know in about 20 years.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[HuangKaiVun]

Actually, one CAN have too much.

To my knowledge, the Seven-Star Mantis style is a very BIG system with tons of forms and lots of drills. My hands and feet would be FULL just trying to learn the basics of that style properly.

Baguazhang is a fantastic art, but it has a totally different jing and thus philosophy than Mantis. Like Seven-Star Mantis, baguazhang is also a very deep system that requires tremendous practice and dedication.

Might studying Bagua and Mantis at the same time result in conflicting jings that cancel each other out?

[blacktaoist]

SkarbroMantis, let me if you like andy Bagauzhang class when you go. Also if you like you should try to hook up with Moslem Boxer, He lives in Scarborough Toronto also. Moslem boxer is learning from some Baguazhang and Hsing I expert, who just come back from china and now lives in scarborough toronto. I hear this guy Hsing I and Bagua is no joke! I hope to take my ass up there where you guys live sometime next year to met him and learn a few things from him. If you like drop a line to moslem boxer at dprincess74@hotmail.com You can meet up and he can take you with him when he gos to class. I hear the Teaher is real cool and loves to teach. If you go vist him let me know what you think of the guy skills. peace. May you find what you are looking for in the tao.

[sultanpro]

Earth Drgon- No disrespect, but that's the second time i asked a question, and the reply you gave me was not really worth the time it took you to type it.

I understand my question was "very broad", but the rest understood what i was looking for, i'm sorry you could not.

If my son ask's a question about the rain forest should i answer him like this..........

Sorry son, thats too broad to answer, thats like asking how meny insect species live in the rain forest. (your answer)

Well son the raiforest contains meny insects and animals, trees and other interesting things, including plants and flowers etc......(my answer)

But like i said no disrespect. e-mail me when your coming to T.O. it would be nice to meet you.

Skard

Its not what goes in a man that defile's him, its what comes out.

[sultanpro]

HuangKaiVun- I see your point

What would you suggest? Mabye instead of an internal system, i should just do some qigong?

I study my Mantis about 2 hrs a day 7 days a week
do you think adding some qigong would still be to much to handle?

If not, what type of qigong would you suggest?

Thanks

Skard

Its not what goes in a man that defile's him, its what comes out.

[bamboo_ leaf]

I think I would begin with, what is it that I expect to get out of internal training that my present training doesn’t have.

Mantis has some similarities to what are called internal arts but its very distinct and for the most part totally different approach to combat.

What are some of the things that you expect to find with “internal” training?
Is more better?

bamboo leaf

[HuangKaiVun]

SkarbroughMantis, I suggest talking to your current Mantis sifu first.

If you're training that long and hard, you ought to be deep into the Mantis system to the point where learning baguazhang with your current background will actually be more painful and timeconsuming than learning the baguazhang WITHOUT your Mantis background.

This is because the footwork, the hand postures, the power generation, and fighting systems of the two systems are completely different. From what I've seen and done of 7-star mantis and Baguazhang, you'd have to UNLEARN your 7-star thinking before even thinking about training Baguazhang.

As far as qigong goes, I do not know why you feel the need for additional qigong training if you're practicing traditional hardcore Mantis whose sets and drills have a very distinct "internal" flavor. Your sifu should be addressing these things day in and day out in training.

Could it be that your intense training schedule leaves you no room to rest and thus you feel the need for qigong to give you respite?

When I practice kung fu, my sifu always insists on moderation.

If you overtrain NOW, you'll pay for it not just later, but NOW as well!

[EARTH DRAGON]

no dissrespect taken, and again I was honestly trying to help or I would not have responded at all! many times I have asked for help and opinons on this board and have gotten trolls and rude comments but never would I tell someone with a positive genuine interestin my question that didnt help me THANKS FOR NOTHING I thought thats was a little out there and somewhat mannorless, But mant times people ask vague questions and they dont get the answers they are looking for,it is also possible I did not understand your question. I apologize that I couldnt be of more help but I was unaware this was the second time you asked me something and I didnt help you, for I enjoy sharing my experiences and opinons with others that enjoy sharing with me! and It is not like me to not help others on this board! anyways good luck in your internal training.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[dedalus]

I'd like to know what some others of you think about this, but it has been suggested that bagua is easier to learn if you have a good prior background in another art. I think you probably still have to go through the empty cup thing (I certainly did), but Dong Haichuan was said to teach only experienced fighters, and my own teacher often comments that he finds it much more difficult to teach bagua as an entry-level art. Many other internal instructors will only teach it to students who have a solid foundation in xingyi or taiji (this, however, makes me think that it is not their primary art). Only one of the guys I train with has learnt bagua exclusively - he's very good, but he also started young and persisted. I've seen many more give up after taking a long time to pick up the first few principles.

The qigong idea is, I think, a very good one, although qigong is also a broad area. Maybe you could take a class on taiji qigong, or maybe you could even find someone to get you going on bagua qigong (there are plenty of people on this forum who practise it and may be able to refer you to a teacher, book or video). A moving version might be good to get some *sung* into your mantis.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Depends, learning something that requires a certain type of hard to develop skill might be boring for some one with no prior training to appreciate what they where learning.

On the other hand I too had to empty my cup when first learning TC I found it impossible to keep or play both arts. Even within TC styles until you really internalize TC principles the requirements for movement may seem to contradict themselves.

Some people may be able to do both, I wasn’t one of them.

bamboo leaf

[sultanpro]

HuangKaiVun- No im not that deep into the mantis system,(just started 4 months ago) i just train the forms i know over and over again, i have nothing to do after work, so i train really hard.

I only know a couple qigong excercises and the whole internal art's thing really intrest's
me, is it not wise to train 2 systems together?

Should i forget about it and just continue to train the forms i know?

Is their any internal training that goes hand in hand with the mantis system?

Any info would be good.

Thanks

Skard

Its not what goes in a man that defile's him, its what comes out.

[grounded]

it's fine to practice more than one system, but beginning two at the same time......
the chinese call this "two days' work for one day's pay".

stick with the mantis for 6 months (if you train realllllly hard) or a year (if you go to class once a week) before even considering another art. A dedicated artist will train hours every day in ONE art. Including sitting meditation and qigong it can take me nearly 3 hours to get through my daily taiji practice regimen. If you have the time and you're like, Wong Fei Hung or something, go ahead, but this stuff takes time and effort.

On the flip side, there are lots of short forms that are actually pretty good, and an excellent primer to a long form, which takes at least a year.
After you can actually fight with Mantis you might consider one of these short forms to supplement your training, but this is not a western art- more is not always merrier. R

[dedalus]

Perhaps you should still check out a few internal arts. If you recognise immediately that they're deeper and will lead you to a better place, then you may choose to abandon your mantis without reservations anyway. I don't know - I've only seen one tanglang class and the instructor was young, arrogant and crap. I know people get thingy here about the superiority of different arts, but if you find a great taiji instructor and only have a crap mantis instructor, the choice seems clear to me. Same goes for the opposite scenario.

As far as short forms go, the five xingyi fists might be a good place to begin. Again, I think the key is to give it a shot and see for yourself, keeping in mind grounded's point that you get nowhere switching styles willy-nilly.

[Gluteus Maximus]

SkarbroMantis

As for Qigong, check out this Yiquan webpage:

http://www.yiquan.com.pl/health.html

The health standing meditations (Zhan zhuang) are the way of entering Yiquan as a martial art, or can be used solely for health, or in conjunction with another martial for helping to build internal power.

Another thought - being formless, Yiquan may be more compatible than some other martial arts based on forms.

Max

Yooby Yoody

[HuangKaiVun]

My knee-jerk response is to stick with the Mantis simply because you haven't trained in it long enough to give it the benefit of a doubt.

I don't know much about Mantis, but I'm 100% convinced that such a venerable and effective system has its share of qigong training - provided you ascend to the skill levels where you can even BEGIN training that stuff.

In kung fu, lots of qigong training is withheld from the beginner because done improperly, such stuff can destroy you from within. I have no doubt that your Mantis sifu has such things within his repertoire.

On the other hand, if you're having trouble with the Mantis philosophy and are regressing instead of improving, a change to a different art would be in order.

[sultanpro]

Thanks for all the info.

Its not what goes in a man that defile's him, its what comes out.

[Buby]

Yau Kung Mun is made up of two complete systems. One being Bak Mei and the other "The Style with no Name" which later was named Yau Kung Mun. Our Sijo is responsible for adding his Bak Mei(trained with CLC in old style bak mei) to the system.

Anyway, the original (for lack of a better word) Yau Kung Mun (Stlye with no name) is an internal art. The forms are done tai chi like, but it's only taught to bai shi.

Buby

Yo Dogs ya bes chill
Cause I flip like sifu Gary and his Yau Kung Mun click, wit two kicks and three pheonix fists
Trust dukes
your gonna split from the ging running through the wrist.