Chiu Family Hung Gar weightlifting

[The Xia]

The Chiu brothers are buff fellows and are often pictured with standard gym weights in their training areas. Since they are traditional Hung Gar stylists I wonder what kind of lifting program they use. Does anyone know their routine?

[The Xia]

Anyone know?

[Mulong]

I too have been curious about this subject, because it is obvious they have enhance their martial arts training with free weight training; however, I gather that the purest will state that it was via "iron thread" training.

It is common knowledge that some sort of weight training has been use throughout the ages in Chinese martial arts, i.e., shuaijiao, etc. Therefore, it will be interesting to see their; for example, Wang, Ziping weight lifting method is available in book format.

[The Xia]

ttt.......

[Asmo]

I've seen weights in the kwoon of Chan Hong Jung as well (see various documentaries shot in his kwoon). In all cases not too heavy 'pumping' type of weights.

[The Xia]

Do you know what kinds of exercises are used?

[Asmo]

Fast repetitions and many of them is all I know. The logic behind that seems clear though. But what specific exercises are done I don't know. Hopefully people closer to the source will tell :)

[The Xia]

Fast repetitions and many of them is all I know. The logic behind that seems clear though.
As expected.

But what specific exercises are done I don't know. Hopefully people closer to the source will tell :)
We shall see. :)

[Mulong]

The cat is out of bag; come on spill the beans- what method do they use?:mad:

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I would assume just a program of primarily high repetitions with low weight just to build definition and endurance.

The rest would be low reps with heavy weight to gain just the size that we're used to seeing them at.

Mix it with their Hung Gar training and you get, "Buff, but not muscle bound". No big mystery. The only thing left for anyone that interested is to find out the EXACT routines.

[Mulong]

That's the question; the actual drill, because it defiantly works!:)

[South Paw]

3 reps with light to medium weights.
No heavy weightlifting.

[Mulong]

Southpaw, have you seen the drill?

[SevenStar]

3 reps? with light weight? surely you mean three sets...

[SevenStar]

I haven't run across anything specific, but did see this on a hung gar page:

"Later under the second world war Chiu Kao returned to Kwantung to teach young Chinese men how to fight the Japanese invaders with Hung Gar techniques. After the war he returned to Hong Kong and started to work as a tailor and he also reopened his school. He started to combine weight training with Hung Gar and the Chiu family became famous as the Bodybuilding Kung Fu Family."

[SevenStar]

I would assume just a program of primarily high repetitions with low weight just to build definition and endurance.

The rest would be low reps with heavy weight to gain just the size that we're used to seeing them at.

Mix it with their Hung Gar training and you get, "Buff, but not muscle bound". No big mystery. The only thing left for anyone that interested is to find out the EXACT routines.

definition can be obtained with heavy weight. Definition or "tone" is nothing more than residual tension in a relaxed muscle. Combine that with low bodyfat and you have a defined individual.

FWIW, you can lift heavy weights and not get big and bulky. It's all in the lifting regimen.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

3 reps? with light weight? surely you mean three sets...

Even more specfically, how many reps in those three sets? I'm thinking that it should be something like 3 sets of 10 reps at with low weight for definition.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

definition can be obtained with heavy weight. Definition or "tone" is nothing more than residual tension in a relaxed muscle. Combine that with low bodyfat and you have a defined individual.

FWIW, you can lift heavy weights and not get big and bulky. It's all in the lifting regimen.

What is your definition of heavy and light? Any body bodybuilder will tell you that to get definition you use "light" weight with high reps and "heavy" weight with low reps to get size.

[Mulong]

Honestly, they should market this, because both brothers look great for their age.

[TenTigers]

I think definition is caused by a lack of subcutaneous bodyfat, allowing the muscles to show through the thinner skin. Muscles will react with growth when stimulated and overloaded to the point of hypertrophy-adaptation to the workload. But I could be mistaken.

[SevenStar]

What is your definition of heavy and light? Any body bodybuilder will tell you that to get definition you use "light" weight with high reps and "heavy" weight with low reps to get size.

body builders also have the "artificial pump" - lift weight, high rep with light to moderate weight and notice what happens - the muscles worked retain a "pumped" look for at least an hour after the work out. However, that is not really "definition" per se, as the "pump" goes away. anyone can look cut as long as their bodyfat is low enough and they lift weights in some fashion. lifting tends to put the muscles in a constant state of tension, although it is only slight. That is part of the reason why a lot of MA used to (and many still do) preach against weight training.

yes, heavy weights with moderate reps - 5 to 8 - will increase size. however, maximal weights with only 1 - 3 reps does not really pack on size. it is more directly related to pure strength, training the neuromuscular system to contract harder, producing a higher strength output.

[SevenStar]

Honestly, they should market this, because both brothers look great for their age.

so does Frank Zane (http://www.frankzane.com/images/frankdbsm.jpg)

[South Paw]

Sorry.

3 sets of 10 to 20 reps.

I once asked Sifu.
They just did normal weightstraining, with some extra for legs, chest and kiu sau.

[hasayfu]

Coming in late to this discussion but I concur with Southpaw. When I spoke to SiGung Chiu Wai about weight lifting, he said nothing special. Basic exercises for the various body parts. SiGung was Mr. Hong Kong at one time. He was serious into body building but I don't believe he did anything special. Basic weights and Hung Gar.

I noticed the weight set he had in Canada. Very old school. Iron weights painted orange(?) and a basic bench.

While weight lifting is a definite factor to his physique, healthy eating and regimented exercise are big factors to his health. At 70 years old, he lifts less then an hour in the morning. Most of his practice is around Hung Gar and just enjoying life.

[TenTigers]

While weight lifting is a definite factor to his physique, healthy eating and regimented exercise are big factors to his health. At 70 years old, he lifts less then an hour in the morning. Most of his practice is around Hung Gar and just enjoying life.
That in itself, is an amazing feat, not only for a 70 yr old, but for most people half his age! Try doing weight training every morning as well as other exercise. And at 70...inspirational.

[SevenStar]

Coming in late to this discussion but I concur with Southpaw. When I spoke to SiGung Chiu Wai about weight lifting, he said nothing special. Basic exercises for the various body parts. SiGung was Mr. Hong Kong at one time. He was serious into body building but I don't believe he did anything special. Basic weights and Hung Gar.

I noticed the weight set he had in Canada. Very old school. Iron weights painted orange(?) and a basic bench.

While weight lifting is a definite factor to his physique, healthy eating and regimented exercise are big factors to his health. At 70 years old, he lifts less then an hour in the morning. Most of his practice is around Hung Gar and just enjoying life.

less than an hour is optimal. I lift heavy and my workouts are 45 mins to an hour. it is a misconception that you have to be in the gym for long periods of time.

However, being into bodybuilding and using light weights don't typically go hand in hand... Did he lift heavy when he was younger?

[SevenStar]

That in itself, is an amazing feat, not only for a 70 yr old, but for most people half his age! Try doing weight training every morning as well as other exercise. And at 70...inspirational.

there are a lot of strong old guys out there. a few years ago, I posted in the training forum about a guy I used to workout with. At 67, he was still bench pressing 275.

[hasayfu]

I'm only commenting on his routine at 70.
I would guess that he followed conventional body building methods of the 50s and 60s since that was when he was Mr. Hong Kong.

When I asked him generally, he did not stress any special method. He also mentioned using heavy weapons training and things like rings and stone locks as other forms to build strength.

Again, at 70, his focus was not constantly working out but enjoying life. That was the big message I got.

[Mulong]

Bless him; a true role model.

[GeneChing]

Read A Legend's Story (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=911) by Curtis Kautzman, just posted on our e-zine.

How's that for a 3-year-old ttt? :cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nice bump Gene.
I doubt they do/did 'endurance" type work ( high reps low weight), they are Hung Guys, I am sure they did the classical ST of the time and what is still the good soild core basics:
Moderate to heavy weights, low reps and sets, minimal time in the gym, get strong and get the hell out.

[David Jamieson]

Chiu Wai is like a Chinese version of Jack LaLanne :p

[iron_leg_dave]

Tu Jin-Sheng's photos always impress me. His lats look like bat wings, and his facial muscles make it look like he could bust a picnic table with his face without popping a zit.

[Jimbo]

I remember visiting Chiu Chi Ling's school one night in Kowloon on one of my visa trips to HK from Taiwan, in 1988. When I got there, Chiu Chi Ling hadn't arrived yet, and none other than his father, Chiu Kau, answered the door and let me in. As I recall, the training area was small, with weight equipment to the sides of the practice area.

[jmd161]

I know through my sifu that Chiu Chi Wai was always into body building. I think I remember him saying that Chiu Chi Ling was also but can't remember for sure.

[5thBrother]

For Their Todai...

I'd be interested in a exact breakdown of their weights training routine, no doubt from what i can tell its just standard weight lifting / basic body building training ontop of their MA training... but would be interested in any their "routines"

Q's would include.. "how was your weighs routine in your 20s/early years", "how is your weights routine changed now that your in your eg. 70s"

would be interesting for the curious like me...

Or for any "MA journilist types" that wanna do an interview with their Sifu etc...

nice thread

[SevenStar]

I'm doubting it was basic body building. body building training is counter productive to the results MA typically go for. There is a difference between strength training and body building.

[David Jamieson]

weight routines for kungfu are not typical bodybuilding routines although some stuff is shared like big compound lifts, military presses, punch outs etc.

there are some that are never gonna be seen in a gym like weighted full range of motion lifts, wrapping lifts, and lifting from postures to stress points (similar to some types of lock lifts).

[JamesC]

With such basic equipment, it seems like compound lifts would be the emphasis.

Full squats, deadlifts, bench press, and press will always be king. They're the best for you and require no specialized equipment, really.

I've always wondered why people thought you had to have a bodybuilding routine in order to get huge... Those routines are tailor made for each individual AFTER having reached their genetic potential. In most cases, to help push themselves beyond their genetic potential with the aid of anabolics.

In my opinion, Sifu Chiu Wai looks like someone who could have easily done nothing other than basic compound lifts, his kung fu training, and just practiced a healthy lifestyle.

[jmd161]

I'm doubting it was basic body building. body building training is counter productive to the results MA typically go for. There is a difference between strength training and body building.

According to my sifu he competed and was really into body building big time! I think he was a champion or something like that.... My sifu knew him when they both were much younger and in HK.

[JamesC]

According to my sifu he competed and was really into body building big time! I think he was a champion or something like that.... My sifu knew him when they both were much younger and in HK.

What was the time frame for his competitions and stuff?

I ask because the state of bodybuilding then was probably still in it's infancy, and thus, still included the major lifts as their staple.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The Chuis trained ST in the 50's and 60's so yeah, it would have been more like strength building than body building as we tend to know it nowadays.

Hung Kuen and ST have always gone hand in hand in my view, Hung guys love their power :D

[jmd161]

What was the time frame for his competitions and stuff?

I ask because the state of bodybuilding then was probably still in it's infancy, and thus, still included the major lifts as their staple.


I'll find out more this weekend when my sifu returns... I'll ask him and get back to you.

[Frost]

What was the time frame for his competitions and stuff?

I ask because the state of bodybuilding then was probably still in it's infancy, and thus, still included the major lifts as their staple.

to be fair most good bodybuilders suggest building strength first with the big main lifts, arnie suggested this, franco colombo was a power lifter too, coleman still deadlifts heavy right up until competition.

the problem is as you say people see the pre comp routines of lifters and assume thats all they do or thats all they ever did, without realising they build size and strength with the big lifts first

[JamesC]

to be fair most good bodybuilders suggest building strength first with the big main lifts, arnie suggested this, franco colombo was a power lifter too, coleman still deadlifts heavy right up until competition.

the problem is as you say people see the pre comp routines of lifters and assume thats all they do or thats all they ever did, without realising they build size and strength with the big lifts first

Yeah, and I get so **** aggravated when I see people who weigh 120lbs walk into the gym and start doing 3 sets of 10 on bench press and dumbbell curls just because they saw it in Flex. Gah.

I've also noticed that a lot of body builders are pretty tight-lipped when it comes to telling newbs about building a base in strength training first. All the good ones did it, but it's almost like they want the rookies to think that if they train from the routine straight out of magazines without actually getting stronger first.

Anyways, it just seemed that with the equipment that was most likely available to Sifu Chiu Wai at the time, that the core lifts were most likely his staple.

However, thanks to Muscle and Fitness, and other crappy magazines, the general public seems to think that you can't look huge, cut, or in-shape unless you do at least 3 sets of 10 on every machine in the gym.

Full squats, press, bench, deadlifts, and pullups are all anyone needs to get huge. The determining factor is going to always be the diet.

[Dragonzbane76]

Full squats, press, bench, deadlifts, and pullups are all anyone needs to get huge. The determining factor is going to always be the diet.
agree

diet is probably one of the major contributors that defines what the out come is.

about 2 years ago I was benching around 340ish... I was going max and was looking for output.

and i will agree on certain parts that it is counter productive to the MA's outlook. I could put up some major numbers in areas, but as for flex. speed, and dexterity, I was lacking and I could see it when sparring.

When I put on the weight and was benching and lifting at a max. I noticed that my overall fighting capability went downhill and wasn't what i had before. Stren. is great and helps but it has to be moderated is what i learned.

I turned my routine around and started going for a more "lean" routine. cut weight, higher reps, cardio. I feel a lot better doing it this way. my body can go longer and harder than before. diet as stated before was the leading contributor.

[Frost]

Yeah, and I get so **** aggravated when I see people who weigh 120lbs walk into the gym and start doing 3 sets of 10 on bench press and dumbbell curls just because they saw it in Flex. Gah.

I've also noticed that a lot of body builders are pretty tight-lipped when it comes to telling newbs about building a base in strength training first. All the good ones did it, but it's almost like they want the rookies to think that if they train from the routine straight out of magazines without actually getting stronger first.

Anyways, it just seemed that with the equipment that was most likely available to Sifu Chiu Wai at the time, that the core lifts were most likely his staple.

However, thanks to Muscle and Fitness, and other crappy magazines, the general public seems to think that you can't look huge, cut, or in-shape unless you do at least 3 sets of 10 on every machine in the gym.

Full squats, press, bench, deadlifts, and pullups are all anyone needs to get huge. The determining factor is going to always be the diet.

how about someone who weighs 110 soaking wet screaming through a set of tricep pushdowns on his arm day which lasted over an hour (and using wrist wraps to hold on to the bar) saw this last week no lie :eek:


people want short cuts, they dont want to work hard they dont want to clean up their diet and they like to believe they are special and thus need a special program

[JamesC]

Yeah, it's just sickening sometimes.

One of my favorites is when people say they are "hard-gainers." There is NO SUCH THING! Seriously! The only thing they MIGHT be is an undisciplined eater.

If you really want to put weight on, it isn't that hard. You increase your calories until you can't burn them off. It's that simple. Drink your GOMAD for a couple months and then tell me you're a "hard-gainer."

Sorry for the rant... Just frustrates the hell out of me.

Btw, if anyone here thinks they're a "hard-gainer", try visiting http://www.70sbig.com

[David Jamieson]

One of the problems as well in context to diet and nutrtion is that people need to stop thinking that they only eat calories.

You drink a lot of them too. Especially the soda.
Nevermind alcohol.

I do notice that there is not a lot of attention paid to how calories are consumed by drinking too.

[SevenStar]

With such basic equipment, it seems like compound lifts would be the emphasis.

Full squats, deadlifts, bench press, and press will always be king. They're the best for you and require no specialized equipment, really.

I've always wondered why people thought you had to have a bodybuilding routine in order to get huge... Those routines are tailor made for each individual AFTER having reached their genetic potential. In most cases, to help push themselves beyond their genetic potential with the aid of anabolics.

In my opinion, Sifu Chiu Wai looks like someone who could have easily done nothing other than basic compound lifts, his kung fu training, and just practiced a healthy lifestyle.

the issue with bodybuilding isn't getting huge. The issue with bodybuilding is that such exercises isolate muscles. Also, getting bigger is typically a more bodybuilding mentality. Of course you can do O lifts and get big.

[Frost]

the issue with bodybuilding isn't getting huge. The issue with bodybuilding is that such exercises isolate muscles. Also, getting bigger is typically a more bodybuilding mentality. Of course you can do O lifts and get big.

isolated movements can be an advantage in som aspects of fighting: curls to aid the defence on an arm bar, hamstring curls/GHR to aid in getting a strong position on the ground, pinning the head and body to the ground when armbaring from the mount etc

[teetsao]

sevenstar is right on.
low body fat is what shows "definition". you can and shhould use heavy weight(heavy to you) and low reps. higher reps gives you the "pump" and will volumize your muscle and sure build some endurence but you do not get good permanant muscle gain doing this. i have been incorporating weight training for years. we will be covering more indepth on another video soon. covering weight training and nutrition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95Nm7GFjS2E

[SevenStar]

isolated movements can be an advantage in som aspects of fighting: curls to aid the defence on an arm bar, hamstring curls/GHR to aid in getting a strong position on the ground, pinning the head and body to the ground when armbaring from the mount etc


eh....sounds plausible, but you are reaching on that one. doing curls to defend an arm bar is no different than a cma guy doing iron palm - it isn't really necessary, and is time that would be well spent doing something else, in regards to fight prep.

[Frost]

eh....sounds plausible, but you are reaching on that one. doing curls to defend an arm bar is no different than a cma guy doing iron palm - it isn't really necessary, and is time that would be well spent doing something else, in regards to fight prep.

i thought that too, until i got curled out of an arm bar by a very good fighter and body builder...watching someone 80kg curl a 100kg guy off the ground sort of makes you re evaluate your position on things :)

[SevenStar]

so now curls are part of your regimen?

[SevenStar]

Yeah, and I get so **** aggravated when I see people who weigh 120lbs walk into the gym and start doing 3 sets of 10 on bench press and dumbbell curls just because they saw it in Flex. Gah.

I've also noticed that a lot of body builders are pretty tight-lipped when it comes to telling newbs about building a base in strength training first. All the good ones did it, but it's almost like they want the rookies to think that if they train from the routine straight out of magazines without actually getting stronger first.

Anyways, it just seemed that with the equipment that was most likely available to Sifu Chiu Wai at the time, that the core lifts were most likely his staple.

However, thanks to Muscle and Fitness, and other crappy magazines, the general public seems to think that you can't look huge, cut, or in-shape unless you do at least 3 sets of 10 on every machine in the gym.

Full squats, press, bench, deadlifts, and pullups are all anyone needs to get huge. The determining factor is going to always be the diet.

eh...bodybuilding isn't totally usesless - it just isn't what you are going for in what you do. I grew up in a bodybuilding world, and was one of the guys reading flex all the time. dorian yates (even though I knew he was a roid head), kevin levrone, lee haney and others were all people I looked up to. From ages 13 until about 21, those sorts of workouts were all I did, and and I was one of the strongest players on the football team, with a 420lb squat at age 17, and 180lbs. Those magazines have their niche, no different from say the crossfit groups. crossfit doesn't promote bodybuilding, because that's not what they do. bodybuilding doesn't promote powerlifting, because that is a different sport. Powerlifters aren't promoting isometrics - it isn't what they do.

[Frost]

so now curls are part of your regimen?

sometimes, it made me reevaluate there worth thats for sure

[JamesC]

eh...bodybuilding isn't totally usesless - it just isn't what you are going for in what you do. I grew up in a bodybuilding world, and was one of the guys reading flex all the time. dorian yates (even though I knew he was a roid head), kevin levrone, lee haney and others were all people I looked up to. From ages 13 until about 21, those sorts of workouts were all I did, and and I was one of the strongest players on the football team, with a 420lb squat at age 17, and 180lbs. Those magazines have their niche, no different from say the crossfit groups. crossfit doesn't promote bodybuilding, because that's not what they do. bodybuilding doesn't promote powerlifting, because that is a different sport. Powerlifters aren't promoting isometrics - it isn't what they do.

I didn't say it was useless.

The point I was making is that because of those magazines, and just plain laziness, the general public seems to think it is the only way that you can workout and achieve results.

This obviously isn't true.

If someone actually takes the time to research, diet, plan, and dedicate themselves to their training, I don't care if they're doing ballet(which is probably harder than anything i'll ever even consider doing). There's a big difference between that and going to the gym with neoprene shorts, weightlifting gloves, and a headband on to start your bodybuilding routine of 4x12 dumbbell flyes just because you saw Arnold doing it in a magazine.

[JamesC]

Also, kids don't count in this, obviously.

By their very definition, they don't have a ****ing clue about anything most of the time.

[5thBrother]

Sorry nothing productive to add atm, but

"started to work as a tailor and he also reopened his school"

KUNG FU HUSTLE just slams into my mind hehehe :P :)

[tiaji1983]

I personally dont do it at this time, but my teacher teaches the Wong Fei Hung Hung Ga system, and he has the classes do muscle isolation exercises with weights before they do Iron Wire. I do Iron Wire without the weights because the Iron Wire itself is getting me cut enough for my personal taste. Plus I dont practice Hung Ga.