Shaolin scholars, please discuss thanks

[Sal Canzonieri]

Some background stuff first:

Shaolin Chan (Zen) teachings, Shaolin qigong, and Shaolin Quan are attributed to being from both Buddhist and Taoist sources in origin.

Many books and articles have been written about the original Indian connection to early Shaolin qigongs. Some of the Indian Monks traveling to Shaolin brought over yogic "qigong" material. Not debating this, as this has been extensively written about by others. You can clearly see yogic postures in Shaolin Muscle Tendon / Marrow Washing exercises, etc, etc, etc., including the knowledge of human 'marma' - 108 highly sensitive, vulnerable and vital parts of the body, 18 phases of training, etc. Note: 18 and 108 being well known Shaolin "numbers". The Shaolin Muscle Tendon / Marrow Washing exercises also are very similar to pre-existing Taoist qigongs. These exercises so far are seen as the oldest Shaolin qigong material.

The "Extensive Records of the Taiping Era" record that, prior to "Bodhidharma's arrival in China", monks practiced wrestling and other Chinese martial arts of the times for recreation. Shaolin monastery records state that two of its very first monks, Hui Guang and Seng Chou, were experts in the martial arts years before the said arrival of Bodhidharma (whose legendary founding of Shaolin arts has been debunked by historians). (Note: Some later era Shaolin Quan are similar to postures seen in the Indian art of Kalaripayattu, which was developed around 11th-13th century AD at the earliest, and which most likely was derived from the same ancient sources as the Indian martial arts that were brought over by Indian bodyguards for the early Indian monks traveling to and from Shaolin).

Now, what I am interested in discussing is the next oldest set of qigong and quan materials:

Many people say that the famous (many thousands of people in China practice it) Dragon-Tiger Qigong is one of the older qigongs to derive from Shaolin. It is 7 simple moves, the important part is to use it to generate energy from your hands and use them for healing your side meridians. These 7 movements also are very similar to Shaolin Muscle Tendon / Marrow Washing exercises / yogic movements from India. Dragon and Tiger originated 1,500 years ago in the Shaolin Temple. Many Taoist qigong sets were practiced there, and although Dragon and Tiger has a Buddhist name, it is nevertheless in the Taoist neigong tradition. It uses the Taoist meridian line system that was developed for health and meditation.

Some time later in Shaolin, the Rou Gong and Rou Quan material was developed in Shaolin. This is the stuff I am most interested right now in researching. The Rou Gong and the related Rou Quan (note: Quan also can be translated as "exercises" rather than "fist") were practiced by only the head monks and kept secretive. The Shaolin Rou Gong comes from a qigong set called the Luohan 13 Postures set. There is a Rou Quan form that incorporates these 13 postures, plus some others for a total of 18 postures. There is also a 36 posture Rou Quan set, and a 108 posture set. They are still practiced today by Shaolin lineages that left after the 1928 fire. The 108 Rou Quan set includes not only the Luohan 13 postures, but also the movements from the Dragon-Tiger qigong set, interestingly.

The sets are collections of loose techniques, the postures can be done in any order once learned. You can also do the Rou Quan sets as qigong sets, the self defense applications arise from the qigong movements. Rou Quan is high level Shaolin in that it is a qigong that can be used as self defense martial art, perfect for monks. The movements are done alternatively as soft and hard, slow and fast.

(Note: There is a Qing Dynasty set of Shaolin Rou Quan forms, as shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia, which mixed Louhan Quan with Rou Quan, but I am not discussing this type of Rou Quan system. There are also other Rou Quan sets out there that are unrelated as well, such as seen in modern era Da Bien style from Beijing area)

I've throughly examined all the postures and movements in these sets for the past 4+ years, both the qigong and the quan sets. What I have observed is that the movements when not done as static postures are Tong Bei techniques, including Shuai Jiao like takedowns/throws, which the Tong Bei style system has in it. Especially the 108 Rou Quan set, this set is like a grand collection of Tong Bei movements merged with qigong movements (they are superimposed, if you can understand what I mean). I know that Tong Bei is Taoist in origin basically.
Also, just about every Tong Bei style has a 108 posture set. I need to research them to see if any are in the same sequence of movements as this particular 108 Rou Quan set. Tong Bei was always taught as secretively as Rou Quan was, back then.

What I have also observed, is that these Rou Quan forms can be done empty handed and also with the staff. I have also noted before that any Shaolin Louhan form can also be done with the staff with no changing of movements needed.

Now the interesting thing is that these movements with the staff can also be done with the sword instead, which really makes it look like Tong Bei movements, and of course Tong Bei is based on sword movements in the first place.

I guess other people have observed this too, judging from this book:
"Down through the ages, the exercises as practiced at Shaolin Temple have developed into the largest wushu school with hundreds of routines in different styles, from which many other schools have been derived. Of these mention may be made of Hong boxing, Pao Chui boxing, Liu Ho boxing, ba duan jin ("8 section brocade" exercises) which is said to have been revised by General Yue Fei (1103-1142) on the arhats' routine in 18 forms, the "stepping exercises" and "heart-and-will" school derived respectively from the dragon's and tiger's sections in Monk Bai Yu Feng's routine imitating the five animals' movements, and the long-range boxing in 36 forms compiled by the First Emperor of the Song Dynasty (960-1279). The routines can be practiced solo, duet or trio, and barehand or with ancient weapons, particularly the cudgel which has earned great reputation for Shaolin Temple."
- China Sports Publications, Shaolin Temple Wushu

It's really interesting (to me anyways) that this early Shaolin Rou Qigong and Quan that was kept so secret are in essence Tong Bei techniques with qigongs, and is applicable as staff routine in Shaolin style or Sword routine in Tong Bei style.

Also, another interesting thing: all the movements/postures seen in Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan sets are contained and done exactly the same in these Rou Quan sets.

And, the Rou Quan when performed looks like some kind of Tong Bei like Tai Ji Quan. It looks like Yang Tai Chi, a lot. My opinion is that this maybe be because Chen Tai Ji Lao Jia Yi Lu form is derived from Shaolin Tai Tzu, and Yang Tai Ji comes from the Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu form. Maybe the Shaolin Rou Quan was known by Chen Chang Xin, Yang Lu Chan's teacher? And THIS is what was emphasized by him to YLC and that is why Yang appears "softer/slower" than Chen Tai Ji Quan?

Does anyone out there have any further information about what I've posted so far about Rou Quan that they can share?

[GeneChing]

Honestly Sal, I've gleaned most of my rou quan info from your research. I'm not sure I have anything to add. I'll keep my radar on, now that I know you're working on this. Keep up the good work.

[beiquan]

Many books and articles have been written about the original Indian connection to early Shaolin qigongs. Some of the Indian Monks traveling to Shaolin brought over yogic "qigong" material. Not debating this, as this has been extensively written about by others. You can clearly see yogic postures in Shaolin Muscle Tendon / Marrow Washing exercises, etc, etc, etc., including the knowledge of human 'marma' - 108 highly sensitive, vulnerable and vital parts of the body, 18 phases of training, etc. Note: 18 and 108 being well known Shaolin "numbers". The Shaolin Muscle Tendon / Marrow Washing exercises also are very similar to pre-existing Taoist qigongs. These exercises so far are seen as the oldest Shaolin qigong material.

Maybe you missed the memo, but it's been pretty well known in the field of CMA history ever since Tang Hao (1940s) that the Muscle Tendon/Marrow Washing exercises (Yijin jing/Xisui jing) were a 17th century forgery with NO connection to India or Bodhidharma at all. Who are these people who have "extensively written" on this topic? Terence Dukes? You? The Tourism board of Dengfeng village?

Ignoring existing research on the topic, reporting your own subjective observations (A looks like B, so they must be related!! OMG!!), presenting myth as fact, and of course not citing your sources... another masterful display of amateurism from Sal. Maybe you'll get the cover story this time?

[Sal Canzonieri]

I know all that, DUH!!! DUH! DUH!

ha, hah.
What was a forgery was a particular document, not the elements of the set itself.

See:
Zhou, Renfeng 周稔豐. 1989. The Book for the Revitalization of Tendons and the Purification of Marrows, Yijin xisui jing 易筋洗髓經. Tianjing: Tianjing University Press.

The document: "Book for the Revitalization of Tendons and the Purification of Marrows, Yijin xisui jing" was written in 1624 by Taoist Zinin Daoren 紫凝道人, and the set was actually based on Han era gymnastics and the Yuan era Eight Section Brocade, as commentated by Zhou Renfeng 周稔豐 in 1989. Other CMA historians say that it blended many ancient Chinese health-building exercises together, such as the five-animals-postures (五禽戲), Baduan Jin (八段錦), HuangDi NeiJing (黃帝內經), etc.

So, DUH, as you surely know, this book from 1624 falsely attributed to the Yijin Jing shown in the book to Bodhidharma, which I DID NOT MENTION at all and did not say was true. According to Zhongguo Wushu Shi, Lin Boyuan zhu (Taibei: Wuzhou Chubanshe), 1996, pp. 181-183:
"Forged prefaces, attributed to the Tang general Li Jing and the Southern Song general Niu Hao were written. They say that, after Bodhidharma faced the wall for nine years at Shaolin temple, he left behind an iron chest; when the monks opened this chest they found the two books “Xi Sui Jing” (Marrow Washing Classic) and “Yi Jin Jing” within. The first book was taken by his disciple Huike, and disappeared; as for the second, “the monks selfishly coveted it, practicing the skills therein, falling into heterodox ways, and losing the correct purpose of cultivating the Real. The Shaolin monks have made some fame for themselves through their fighting skill; this is all due to having obtained this manuscript.” Based on this, Bodhidharma was claimed to be the ancestor of Shaolin martial arts. This manuscript is full of errors, absurdities and fantastic claims; it cannot be taken as a legitimate source."
AND
"The first book was taken by his disciple Huike, and disappeared; as for the second, “the monks selfishly coveted it, practicing the skills therein, falling into heterodox ways, and losing the correct purpose of cultivating the Real. The Shaolin monks have made some fame for themselves through their fighting skill; this is all due to having obtained this manuscript.” So, OBVIOUSLY it was attributed to Damo to say that Shaolin doesn't do the real way to do it and that the real way was the version shown in the book (which was faked).

DUH! Do you understand what is being said there? Shaolin was doing a different version of this set and the author of the 1624 book wanted to say that his (forged) version was the real one and not Shaolin's. DO you get it?

What was in that 1624 book and what Shaolin ACTUALLY practiced as their Yi Jin Jing are not the same at all. What was in that 1624 book is it's own entity (fake or not), and it is NOT what Shaolin actually practiced as this form. The set in the BOOK is the forgery with false claims to Damo, not what Shaolin actually really practiced.
Regardless, Shaolin practices a set with the same name, and they incorporate yogic postures into their set, as they do in other qigongs they practice. The Shaolin version is the "Shaolin" version. This version works on opening the fascia/ body /meridians and breathing exercises, regardless. The movements used are in common to both Shaolin Buddhist qigongs and Indian yogic systems, which was all that I was saying. That they share positions in common (Buddhist yogic postures).

AND the movements of the Shaolin version any not at all the same as the movements in the Taoist "Forgery" document that you are talking about.
The sets have the same names, that's all that is the same about them.

There are many sets from various parts of China with the same name as Yijin jing or Xisui jing but use very different postures, they just share the name cause the sets do what they are called: stretch the muscle/tendons, etc. Simply, Yijin-Jing (易筋經) just means “internal exercise” (內功) and breathing exercise (導引術 or 吐納). But they aren't the SAME sets, they are from various time periods.

I don't just compare things with no logic behind it. I have an anthropology background (degree in Behavioral Science, which is combo of Anthro, Socio, and Psychology and other related fields. It's a triple major, so I did a lot of hard work getting this degree, back in 1982.) I compare WHO taught Who what when and where. I trace where sets and postures migrated from one place to another via the people that practiced their movements during various time periods. I'm not going to post these exact specific details, which is my over 30 years of hard work, and just give them away to strangers. I post here to see if the people that I know that have extensive research materials might be able to add something or just plain old have a nice discussion about a topic. I know that you can't comprehend that in your thick uncouth angry immaturity that has to attack rather than just participate in a decent discussion. I've interviewed researchers, back in the late 80s, early 90s, who did many years of traveling in India and China to review the origin of qigong, among them is Bruce Frantzis, who studied this very subject and traveled in both countries during his own investigations.

So, you are talking about something totally different than I was, just because the sets share the same name. If anything the Taoist version is the forgery.
douche.

[Sal Canzonieri]

AND:

There are many connections between Chan and Ati-yoga (anuttarayoga), which relates to the practice of Vajrayana, which many many many Shaolin sets have their posture names and internal workings based on. Vajrayana being the Jingang in Chinese.

Some of the leading Buddhist scholars believe that Chan probably started out with wondering yogic types, with some being monks and others not.
With certain aspects of Shaolin martial arts, such as breathing methods and postures connected to these yogic practices.

[beiquan]

Funny that in responding to me you are quoting a translation that I made of Lin Boyuan's article. Where in there does it claim that the Yijin jing existed before the document written in 1624? In the preface to this document, which is obviously a forgery? Is that a reliable source? You claim that the movements of the Shaolin Yijinjing are totally different from the 17th century forgery, that is completely untrue. I have a woodblock reprint of that text (from the 19th century anthology _Neigong tushuo_), it is the exact same twelve exercises that are being taught as SHaolin Yijinjing nowadays, even Shi Deqian has a video out on these exercises.

I call you an amateur, I will not apologize for that. I have every right to call you this because I am a professional, with a BA, MA, and soon a Ph.D in Chinese history. I have sent you a PM with a link to my CV if you wish to verify this. Despite your BA in anthropology it is clear from your writings that you have:

1.) No formal training in the general practice of history;
2.) No formal training in the specific methods and resources used by scholars of Sinology;
3.) Inadequate knowledge of the Chinese language to properly conduct research.

You claim that I owe you a public apology, forget it. You have no scholarly credentials, you have produced nothing original, all you do is continue to perpetuate the same hackneyed myths that wuxia authors have been pushing for a hundred years. All this crap about Indian bodyguards teaching Kalaripayattu to Shaolin monks, give me a break, this belongs in a fantasy novel!

Bad scholarship is like bad gongfu, you can do it for 5, 10, 30, even a hundred years and it will not magically turn into good scholarship.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Whatever dude.

All that counts is that I've physically used everything I know many times all over the world, even recently, and it's always worked out perfectly. I've never lost a self defense situation and I never will. Plus I practiced Western boxing, being that my relative was world champ in the 1930s. Plus I grew up on the mean streets of Newark NJ, and had to fight just to get to school and back everyday. So, I know what's real or not.

Armchair martial arts experts, I can eat you for a snack on the street.

Scholarship. I'm not presenting "scholarship" in a open forum discussion group, but topics to discuss, which means give and take, conversation with people.
The topic was Tong Bei and Rou Quan. You just want to be a***** and instead of discussing things normally and have a normal conversation with information exchanged, you have to cut someone down and be the "expert" that will set me straight, whatever dude, I guess you got your jollies.

Here's some of my past public articles, tell me where I am wrong about things:
http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/index.htm

I was gathering info from people directly throughout the 80s and 90s and many great martial artists from all over the world with concrete knowledge were happy to pass on their style's history to me because they saw the sincerity, way back then when hardly anyone wrote about CMA history, and they passed info to me that they didn't give their own students (cause most students today don't care about history).

I would think that someone so learned as you wouldn't be a**** and would want to exchange information, I have cartons and cartons of papers that I gathered from all these years of trying to find out what the real history of CMA is and boxes and boxes of films and tapes people gave me of their forms and training. Stuff I am sure no one else has.

Hell with it, this stuff makes me lose interest in sharing any information.

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi Sal,

Can you describe the 108 Rou Quan set you refer to above?
The Shaolin Lohan Qi Gong 少林羅漢氣功 passed on by my older generations is composed of 108 sections each of which end in a posture.

cheers,
r.


". . it's been pretty well known in the field of CMA history ever since Tang Hao (1940s) that the Muscle Tendon/Marrow Washing exercises (Yijin jing/Xisui jing) were a 17th century forgery . . ."

Re: Tang Hao; Xu Zhen; Matsuda, et al
I only buy part of their argument, and not at all their conclusions about the Shaolin / Yi Jin Jing/Bodhidharma. Pretty much all of this material is based on the same very thin resources and a very narrow historical methodology.

Shaolin traditions were most often transmitted orally or by gesture as were many aspects of ancient cultural traditions and skills. This is why anthropology is a very valid and important approach in looking at these issues. Historically, the methods of anthropology have been based on non-textual resources, in particular focused on what people say and do rather than on what they have written. Participant observation is a methodology based on the authority of the spoken word and what would otherwise be unrecorded.

By the way Sal, we also practice Yi Jin Jing 易筋經 (I'm referring to the nei gong exercises not the text) in our lineage of (northern) Shaolin.

[Sal Canzonieri]

cheers,
r.

Re: Tang Hao; Xu Zhen; Matsuda, et al
I only buy part of their argument, and not at all their conclusions about the Shaolin / Yi Jin Jing/Bodhidharma. Pretty much all of this material is based on the same very thin resources and a very narrow historical methodology.

Shaolin traditions were most often transmitted orally or by gesture as were many aspects of ancient cultural traditions and skills. This is why anthropology is a very valid and important approach in looking at these issues. Historically, the methods of anthropology have been based on non-textual resources, in particular focused on what people say and do rather than on what they have written. Participant observation is a methodology based on the authority of the spoken word and what would otherwise be unrecorded.

By the way Sal, we also practice Yi Jin Jing 易筋經 (I'm referring to the nei gong exercises not the text) in our lineage of (northern) Shaolin.

Thanks.

And, the public version of Yi Jin Jing, that yes, even Shi Degian has shown is that 17 move one that "he" mentioned about.
But, the real Shaolin Yi Jin Jing, is not 17 moves, but 88 movements in total.
AND, Shi Digian has finally shown it to the public, in the new edition of the Shaolin 2 volume set, the one with photos, he himself is shown presenting this Yi Jin Jing.

Everyone knows that the author of the 1624 book in the preface made up that Damo created the Yi Jin Jing, but no one has been able to prove that the individual movements are themselves are fake. They do depict actual movements traditionally done in ancient exercises. I've never heard this disputed.

All that these armchair martial art scholars has said was that the moves are seen in Han era daoyin, the song era 8 Section Brocade, etc. The emphasis is on "Seen in". But what if the Daoyin and 8 section brocade moves and the moves in Yi Jin Jing comes from the same original sources? No one has really said that this not possible.

Also, wasn't there recently a Western Han Danasty era tomb excavated where they found a piece of silk with Daoyin exercises that were the same as most of those in the Yi Jin Jing? All the Yi Jin Jing movements were found to be the movements of farmers moving their grain, something that people were doing for centuries back to antiquity.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hi Sal,

Can you describe the 108 Rou Quan set you refer to above?
The Shaolin Lohan Qi Gong 少林羅漢氣功 passed on by my older generations is composed of 108 sections each of which end in a posture.



The 108 posture Rou Quan and the 36 posture Rou Quan are said to stem from the Rou Qong (soft exercises) that Shaolin has been doing since it's earliest days. The Rou Qong is often called the 13 Louhan qigong or neigong.

These quan are actually neigong exercises that can also be used for self defense.

The 108 posture Rou Quan is one of three ancient sets that are credited to Hui Ke.

It has 108 postures, not sections. They are composed of groupings of movements that can be done in any order.
The hands trace along the meridians when doing all the Rou Quan sets.

It starts with a neigong movement first, where the arms are circles and raised about while breathing out and then returned to center while breathing in. Then the hand raise and fall to the chest while gliding over the sides of the trunk.

The next move is the Pierce Behind the Back movement, it does this exactly like the Dragon-Tiger qigong posture "Dragon Soars to Heaven and Brings Back the Pearl".
then it does two "Old Man Splits Wood" movements (which is the same as Tong Bei double Dao movements).
then it does Box the Ears movement, the reeling silk movement, then raise fist and drop down, then Louhan Plants the Banner movement on right and left.
then kick and split movement (like "hide the sword" posture".
then Cross arms and turn into elbow strike.

That's the first section.

next section starts with Fan Shou (flip over hands) and Push Mountain posture, then side kick, then scropian kick, then fist under elbow whirling arms, and then double elbow strike.

Do you want me to go over the whole 108 movements?
Is this sufficient to see if it similar to your form?

each one of these postures can be done as solo neigong movements on left and right sides and repeated as as many times as you wish.

[Sal Canzonieri]

This 108 Rou Quan is just about all tong bei.
The first move after the nei gung part, is piercing behind the back (right and left side)
from Tong Bei and then it does "kai men" open gate movement/posture on the right and then again.
Tong bei also calls this exact same movement/posture "kai men".
The rest of the 108 are all various Tong Bei moves.

There must be something going on that people today have missed, historically and FUNCTIONALLY. Using anthropological techniques to investigate the transmission of postures from one area and style and person to another shows the functionality of techniques. You can trace how these techniques evolved into other styles this way (in a given local area of course), because no matter what each style calls the movements, their functionality remains the same in application.
It's just like when Languages are traced. Even though on paper 'scholars' say it must have went a particular way, when people to people transmission are traced they prove often that what scholars say DON"T bear out. For example, how Japanese language arose, read the information that is out there, on paper it seems one way, but when tracing genetic and cultural transmissions it bears out a very different way.

About the Tong Bei being the original root of ancient Shaolin such as Rou Quan:
First thing to observe is that Rou Quan, Xiao Hong Quan, Lao Da Hong Quan, Tai Tzu Chang Quan, and Chen Taijiquan's Lao Jia Yi Lu share the exact same opening sequences of movements, even the salute part is the same in all these sets.
Why? Is this "just' coincidence?
All these sets arose in the same local area.

Read this: http://www.literati-tradition.com/chen_camp.html

Many people from the Henan area (around when Rou Gong and Rou Quan first arose) are originally from Shanxi province, because they were forced to relocate and repopulate that area of Henan whose original population was decimated by war, etc.
The Chen family records say that the Chen clan practiced martial arts that their ancestors in Shanxi practiced. This new info about the Li family corroborates this as well.

Tai Tzu Quan it is well known is derived from Tong Bei, because that is what the military practiced during Zhao Kwuan Yin's time (pre-960 ad).

What is long practiced in Shanxi and in the villages and local area that the Chen clan comes from? TONG BEI.

So, not only did this Shanxi Tong Bei arrive via population movement into Henan, and VERY NEAR Shaolin temple, but it was also practiced by the military, which Shaolin is known to have ex-military men staying there. The two oldest martial monks (before Damo ever was said to be in the area) were said to be ex-military men that brought throwing arts and so on to the monks. Shaolin had guards to protect their acreage and they were used to usher in the Tang Dynasty when they protected the Prince. This is well known.

Logically, there were many people of that time period that had knowledge of Tong Bei, which is known to be not only for fighting but also having Nei Gong exercises.

The connection between Shaolin's earliest martial arts and the local people's knowledge of Tong Bei that was brought over from Shanxi and which was practiced by the military (of which Chen Wang-ting was a general in the army) should be further investigated.

The different sets practiced in the area in Shaolin and in the local villages have the same movements and postures, and it bears looking into, especially concerning Shanxi tong bei sets and nei gongs.

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi Sal
Thanks for the extensive replies and posts - very interesting.

These sound a lot more complicated than what our version is. More on this later - I've been swamped with work :-(

r.


"next section starts with Fan Shou (flip over hands) and Push Mountain posture, then side kick, then scropian kick, then fist under elbow whirling arms, and then double elbow strike."

[Sal Canzonieri]

Well, we're probably comparing two different things.
Your 108 Louhan Gong might not be the same things as 108 Rou Quan.

I wouldn't think that they would be the same things.

[mawali]

Sal,

Livia Kohn and Catherine Depeaux, Daoist scholars/writers, who have done comnsiderable research, found that there are few, if any representations of what we see as styles represented as they are today. Most of Daoyin compriesed of Daoist and Buddhist synthesis and where one starts and the other begins is not so easy. Folk naming of an art may, and will vary form village to village depending on understanding and historical significance (lineage). Even Chen style, as example can undergo sufficient differentiation within itself to be indistinguishable from its origin. Here is an example:
Chen Family
- Wangting version
- Small frame version
- Zhaobao version

Chen differentiation into:
Yang Luchan (his original style was Chen); We can say there is nor way to verify what his style looked like, OR we can track down people who studied with him, OR (less reliable) look at Banhou students and compare the frame and format, with differentiation over time to what we have today.
Chengfu (what we know today as Yang)
Wu Yuxaing

Many of todays arts appear to have come from /reorganized from the 1800 when more people were exposed to an art and one could have seen the variations and expressions through comparison!
A difficult task, indeed!

[GeneChing]

I had the delight of meeting Dr. Kohn when she was keynote speaker at the Zhang San Feng Festival (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44840) a few years ago. I wasn't familiar with her work at that time. Her talk was rather academic, which was a shame because it went spiraling over the heads of most of the attendees. I was all ready to ask questions, but it was clear that the audience was rather bored, so I caught up to her later and we talked privately. I'm impressed with her work. It's nice to have a real academic scholar looking at this stuff.

[r.(shaolin)]

And, the public version of Yi Jin Jing, that yes, even Shi Degian has shown is that 17 move one that "he" mentioned about.
But, the real Shaolin Yi Jin Jing, is not 17 moves, but 88 movements in total.

Interesting - The Yi Jin Jing 易筋經 we do has 21 sections. My teacher learned this during the 1920's and his teacher's teacher who was still alive then learned it sometime in the early/mid 1800's




AND, Shi Digian has finally shown it to the public, in the new edition of the Shaolin 2 volume set, the one with photos, he himself is shown presenting this Yi Jin Jing.

Can you scan some of the postures and post it.?


Well, we're probably comparing two different things.
Your 108 Louhan Gong might not be the same things as 108 Rou Quan.

I wouldn't think that they would be the same things.

You are right. What we do is done on one spot - each section, all of which are a short series of motions ending in a single posture.

r.