??? about Patriotism in the U.S.A [Archive]

specialed

03-27-2007, 04:00 PM

I was just wondering if any of you chaps and chapesses from the USA find your martial arts philosophy and values conflict with your american philosophy and values.

"Our American philosophy"? And that is...??? You seem to know, so please define what it is.

Before you answer that, Keep in mind that the US is a country where the ability to think freely and express oneself is a highly regarded value. Not like many, many other countries where such things as simple as a cartoon in a newspaper or magazine can get death warrant issued for the artist.

for example i find the idea of young children swearing themselves to the American flag every day absolutely absurd! isnt that just brainwashing.

Showing patriotism and loyalty is brainwashing? Yeah, right pal...This isn't North Korea you're talking about. I'd want my children to say the pledge of allegiance at school every day as a reminder that they live in a free country and should be thankful for that, as well as loyal to it.

and issues like the death penalty, foreign policy and so on, I find these values clash strongly with my martial arts ethic but i wanted to see what the American view on this was if ts at all different.

Death penalty conflicting with martial arts ethic? What kind of dumb pills are you taking? Foreign policy? American views on martial ethics and these topics? Dude, shut up. Train. Leave your pansy political views out of it. Martial arts are for warriors, not creampuffs.

PangQuan

03-27-2007, 04:08 PM

now im curious what regular forum user created a new user account to rant at this guy.

has to be a reg as its this dudes first post, hmm screen name specialed. LOL

dude this is funny stuff.

golden arhat

03-27-2007, 04:13 PM

now im curious what regular forum user created a new user account to rant at this guy.

has to be a reg as its this dudes first post, hmm screen name specialed. LOL

dude this is funny stuff.

cough...black jack cough cough ...rogue cough

specialed

03-27-2007, 04:19 PM

cough...black jack cough cough ...rogue cough

Golden A$$hat is a prime example of why the UK is rapidly becoming a country of pushovers.

The Xia

03-27-2007, 04:19 PM

I think this is one of the most ridiculous threads I've come across here.

Black Jack II

03-27-2007, 04:21 PM

OHHH KAYYYBEEE LETS FEED THE TROLL.....:rolleyes:

for example i find the idea of young children swearing themselves to the American flag every day absolutely absurd! isnt that just brainwashing

Old Glory is much more than a piece of cloth that represents a certain part of the earth. It's a symbol of what a country is all about, what its people are about, there believe in unity, what they will protect and die for. The Pledge of Allegiance is a treasure chest of information if one takes the time to examine the words that capture an ideal of who we are.

PangQuan

03-27-2007, 04:34 PM

I think this is one of the most ridiculous threads I've come across here.

lmao, the good stuff always comes out during the end of my workday

:D :cool:

golden arhat

03-27-2007, 04:35 PM

Golden A$$hat is a prime example of why the UK is rapidly becoming a country of pushovers.

wow its almost as if you did something intelligent and witty with my name to mock me

but you didnt
and it ddnt work
and if had only just registered how would you know straight away from ur 3rd post who rogue or black jack was ?? or why would you care ??

its blatantly obvious what you did

specialed

03-27-2007, 05:00 PM

and if had only just registered how would you know straight away from ur 3rd post who rogue or black jack was ?? or why would you care ??

its blatantly obvious what you did

You are wrong. My join date is well over a month ago. I am neither of the two people you list. I simply chose not to get involved until I read the pathetic initial post of this thread.

Water Dragon

03-27-2007, 05:06 PM

this thread has 'twenty page flame war' written all over it.

Mr Punch

03-27-2007, 05:53 PM

Hey shortlee, welcome to the board.

Unfortunately, you're gonna have to sharpen up your threadgame. It was a nice try, but addressing a whole country when the citizens of which mostly pride themselves on individuality and individual freedoms was a bit crass.

If you reverse the question, and write one to all the British on the board, you'll be getting dozens of opposing answers too.

Perhaps your next thread should be something like "ATTN Americans: what do you see as American values/qualities?" and encourage people to express themselves freely rather than couch the question in your own presumption.

Hey special-ed (I assume that's 'education'?) welcome to the board, you obnoxious ****. I shall look forward to more of your irrelevant, pointlessly rude b****.

Showing patriotism and loyalty is brainwashing? Yeah, right pal...This isn't North Korea you're talking about. I'd want my children to say the pledge of allegiance at school every day as a reminder that they live in a free country and should be thankful for that, as well as loyal to it.So, if as free-thinking individuals they decided that the the US's standards of freedom didn't quite come up to scratch with theirs (children can be very idealistic and very demanding you know), and that they didn't want to stand up and say the pledge of allegiance, you'd respect their rights to individual freedom in refusing?

Goood, glad to hear it.

Death penalty conflicting with martial arts ethic? What kind of dumb pills are you taking? Foreign policy? American views on martial ethics and these topics? Dude, shut up. Train. Leave your pansy political views out of it.He said his martial ethic. In some countries people have different martial ethics, as an expression of their rights to individual freedom, and can express those without fear of reprisal.

For example, some people might find this to be a laughable wannabe expression:
Martial arts are for warriors, not creampuffsI trust you are writing this from Iraq, warrior-boy? Or at least from the set of 1200 (300 II: the Sequel ) where 600 women and children live ****ty lives without their fathers in a fascistic narcissistic fantasy state, and 600 hundred slaves bury a couple of thousand dead Spartans and half a million rotting Persians?

I think you should send shortlee the rest of your dumb pills... they seem more effective than his.

xcakid

03-27-2007, 06:36 PM

I believe there is a saying, and will answer most of you question. It goes:

"I may not agree with what you say, but I will die defending your right to say it"

As for the death penalty. That is a personal choice. We have the death penalty but not every state uses it. In CA, they have people on deathrow that would die of old age before they see their sentence carried out. The subjects of....err I mean.... the citizens(I use that term lightly since they let their govt do the thinking for them) end up paying nearly $40K annually to house these a-holes. And it would only take them about $5K of off them. Here in TX, we have the only electric chair with a service contract. :D If you kill someone in TX, we will kill you back. CA, 8%+ state income tax. TX, no state income tax. Doesn't conflict with my belief at all, cause I have not embraced Buddhism nor do I believe in being non-violent. I take martial art for its health benefits. Being able to fight is just gravy. So really no conflict.

You're question regarding the flag: How bout asking yourself why the UK thinks so highly of an in-bred family and call them royalty? :p

USA - we rebelled against authority if that is not individualism, I don't know what is.
UK - people are called "subjects" for hundreds of years. Royals herded you guys around for hundreds of years. Much like they are doing now and telling you it for your own good. Filiming your every move. Telling you what you can and cannot have. What is bad and good for you. (Sadly this is catching as it is starting to happen here now.)

specialed

03-27-2007, 07:13 PM

For example, some people might find this to be a laughable wannabe expression:I trust you are writing this from Iraq, warrior-boy? Or at least from the set of 1200 (300 II: the Sequel ) where 600 women and children live ****ty lives without their fathers in a fascistic narcissistic fantasy state, and 600 hundred slaves bury a couple of thousand dead Spartans and half a million rotting Persians?

I think you should send shortlee the rest of your dumb pills... they seem more effective than his.

Too late. After reading your post its apparent that you've intecepted them and swallowed the lot.

SanHeChuan

03-27-2007, 07:26 PM

Dude! I want a trolling alter ego! That would be sweet! :D

Wait what was the question? What does Patriotism have to do with Kung fu?

You Know in my kung fu class we have to recite the school creed, kind of a Chin woo thing. :eek: Dear god lets not pledge allegiance to the our country and school that would be... What?

But I also think citizenship should be earned through service (not military), rather than something your born into. Maybe people would be more appreciative or at least willing to do something about their problems other than complain. I know people who couldn't pass the citizenship test the make immigrants take.

LOOK! I have the greatest country and the best style so sit down and shut up :p J/K

Mr Punch

03-27-2007, 07:56 PM

USA - we rebelled against authority if that is not individualism, I don't know what is...UK - people are called "subjects" for hundreds of years. Royals herded you guys around for hundreds of years. Much like they are doing now and telling you it for your own good. Filiming your every move. Telling you what you can and cannot have. What is bad and good for you. (Sadly this is catching as it is starting to happen here now.)See, that's typical of the negative BS you find all over the internet these days.

We're supposed to be allies, and God knows we're like as two peas in a pod in some ways.

And yet here, on a thread that should have simply been a good opportunity for Americans to say what they think about being American and about American values, is some ill-informed (and frankly that makes it racist) crap slagging off the UK. Now, I know we have Golden Arsehat on our side (God bless im)... but please.

I didn't agree with Blair joining Bush by lying to our people. This is not political, it's moral. I appreciate the need of the govt to hide their intentions sometimes. Now, this is on point: why? Because, although I felt that way, I still supported Blair and by reluctant extension Bush, in Iraq. I someone accuses me of being a 'liberal' or a 'socialist' like that's a bad thing, fine. I've used my freedom of speech (which I would fight for) to defend my position and someone is using theirs to attack my position. Bring it on! :D

Regardless of the fact that the people of both countries were lied to, and that the situation in Iraq was largely of our making in the first place, I will support the UK. Why? Well using xca's cynical logic, this is because I'm a blind sheep? Some (US definition) liberal's accusation - a blind patriot? I'm in lose-lose position! No, it's because I'm English. Simple as that.

But xcakid's cynical bull**** negativism is just going to turn this thread into another: US kicked your asses, then saved your asses, and all the ills of the world are from European imperialism crap. I'm sick of it.

I don't have enough time to take every dumb kid's statements on the net seriously (and hell, I wouldn't have enough time to look at 20 words of Golden Arhat's but he's English, so I'll let him off! :D )

Let's have a quick look:

USA - we rebelled against authority if that is not individualism, I don't know what is...1) The first poster is obviously ignorant. So it's time to politely inform him, rather than us vs them bs

2) Nobody said the US wasn't individualistic.

3) If you are talking about championing individuality maybe you are sacrificing democracy?

4) If you think you have the monopoly of popular uprisings you know NOTHING.

A selection

Levellers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levellers#Origin_of_name)
more (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolpuddle_martyrs)
more (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peasants_Revolt)
more (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diggers_%28True_Levellers%29)
more (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddites)
more (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentrich%2C_Derbyshire)
more (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing_Riots)

One of the roots of your Bill of Rights and Constitution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_carta#Rebellion_and_civil_war)

and more recent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_Tax_Riots)

If you rest on your laurels in the fight for freedom, and just believe your country is free, whilst stifling political dissent/discussion... you deserve everything you get. By the same token going to fight wars protecting spurious business interests for contrived reasons in the name of 'fighting for your freedom' while letting individual freedoms slide at home (Patriot Act and Cindy Sheehan anyone?) is failing to uphold the very freedoms you love and take for granted.

I'm not saying that's happening, or getting into the ins and outs of the Patriot Act or whatnot (but it does seem they are anti-American to me!) and I'm not US-bashing... I'm saying, while there is no debate these things are more likely to happen.

UK - people are called "subjects" for hundreds of years. So what? In effect it means nothing more than citizen, in that a civilised member of a civil city-based society has certain responsibilities that go with freedoms.
Royals herded you guys around for hundreds of years. What exactly do you mean by this? Perhaps you'd like to read up about how much executive, legislative or adminstrative power the Royals actually have? (None)
Much like they are doing now and telling you it for your own good.Is this 'they' the royals, the govt (ie. the Blair and Bush coalition :D ), the BBC, the Severn Trent Water Company? Sounds a bit like a conspiracy theory to me. And again I point to political debate being alive and well in the UK and the UK media... when was the last time a real democractic movement (eg populist politics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_Tax_Riots)) got any unjust law changed in the US? And yes, the have been more peaceful lobbying examples, but I happen to like the rabble-rousing ones! :D

Telling it for your own good: again this sounds like the US, the UK or just about any govt 'democratic' or otherwise.

(Filiming your every move.Again. So. What? If you're not doing anything wrong I don't see the problem, and the number of criems these cameras have prevented/helped solve justifies them to soem extent to me.
Telling you what you can and cannot have. What is bad and good for you. (Sadly this is catching as it is starting to happen here now.)Now what the **** are you talking about? And are you saying the British govt started this trend? And when is advice (on nutrition etc) turned into 'orders'?

Like I said I have a couple of probs with the US, just as I do with the UK, but a bit less us vs them cyncism and ill-informed parrotted crap please.

Mr Punch

03-27-2007, 07:58 PM

But I also think citizenship should be earned through service (not military), rather than something your born into. Maybe people would be more appreciative or at least willing to do something about their problems other than complain. I know people who couldn't pass the citizenship test the make immigrants take.That7s a good point for the UK too.

LOOK! I have the greatest country and the best style so sit down and shut up :p J/KOK... mine both suck! :( :D

Mr Punch

03-27-2007, 08:04 PM

Too late. After reading your post its apparent that you've intecepted them and swallowed the lot.Which particular point were you taking issue with, warrior-boy?

The Xia

03-27-2007, 09:34 PM

this thread has 'twenty page flame war' written all over it.
Folks,
I think you'd be better off discussing Royal Dragon's women problems then dignifying this. :eek: :D

SanHeChuan

03-27-2007, 10:20 PM

Speaking of mandatory service. I met this HOT, I mean I spotted her from across the mall HOT, Israeli chick in Virgina last year and she said something to the effect of, "Yeah, I had to do two years of mandatory military service, shoot AK's and sh!t." Not that is HOT! I had a thing for Jewish girls before but ****! :D That is HOT.

shortlee

03-28-2007, 12:01 AM

Okay stuff the classics study this is being copied and pasted STRAIGHT INTO my psychology course work. only joking

I didnt expect such hostile approaches from some of you, but then again i am sorry for my naievaty, perhapes i should avoid threads like this

pangquan and Mr punch thankyou for your sensible comments that came acfcross as being more level headed

as for the rest of you (americas great). people////

'were not being brainwashed by our corrupt governemnt... honest'

did your agressive words not prove my point, dotn you feel youve had 'americas great' drummed into you enough by now.

I only make that statement because some of you seem so intent on insulting the UK

''martial arts for warriors'

my point about ethics and death sentence was the fact that if youd studied some of the moral ethics displayed by great patriots of the arts then youll find they were peaceful, caring and compassionate...

bodhidharma maybe... 18 lohan hands ring a bell anywhere.... sarcasm btw...

the death sentence goes against many martial arts techings of compassion and tolerance...

as for an earlier question as to what i think american values are so far Ive dtermined this.

'stuff everyone else were the best.. oh and were really free honest.... yes free'

except for the few of you which seem to manage decent answers to my question, the rest seemeed to take it as an insult.

and im sorry if i offeneded your rag worshipping ceremony, so ythe UK may be full of pushovers, but because were not blinded by patrotizm were able to have debates over EVERYTHING because everyones got a different opinion thats not mascaaded as patriotism

well thats about it really, ive been watching this thread grow and i thought its about time i got involved.. slaughter me for my comments i wouldnt expect any less

golden arhat

03-28-2007, 12:23 AM

Scott R. Brown

03-28-2007, 01:38 AM

Hi shortlee,

The problem here is the manner in which the topic was originally addressed. The issue of patriotism is not an American issue, it is a human issue. There are individuals in every country of the world who have patriotic feelings for their country. It is irrelevant whether the country devoted to is dominant or subordinate in power. Those of dominant power seek to maintain their dominance; those of subordinate power seek to achieve a position of dominance. This is a quality of humans that is reflected in goals of countries. As above, so below, but also as below, so above!

Patriotism is part of human psychology. It is the same quality that causes some to be devoted to their favorite football team, marital art style, ethical value, church of choice, employer, etc. It is a human quality to want to identify with something greater than ourselves. This is is a more productive manner in which to address the topic, not how, why or what motivates someone to be devoted to a SPECIFIC ideal. This is a DIRECT challenge to an individual’s subject of devotion. Hostile responses are just about begged for using this manner of addressing the topic. Most people will fiercely defend that which they are devoted too.

The question would have been better asked about the “human” quality of patriotism and not “American” patriotism in particular. Britain has had their time in history when they forced/influenced their values on other countries. Dominant countries always influence/impose their value system on the less powerful. It is not an American quality, it is a human quality. Many cultures have had their time in the sun. The Vikings invaded/influenced much of Europe, the Mongols Asia and eastern Europe, the Chinese Asia, the Greeks the near east and Asia, Egypt, north Africa and the near East, the Muslims Europe, Africa, the near east and Asia, etc. I think you get my point. America has their day in the sun now, but that too shall pass.

We should be careful when criticizing the patriotism/imperialism of any country because every country would do the same thing if they were a dominant power. There is no country that would not do it! This is because it is a human quality to do so. The question regarding whether it is a good or an evil is secondary to our acceptance of the reality of it. We cannot do anything about the reality of it; it is as old as power and politics. The good and bad of it will be determined by individual value systems and agreement will never be achieved!

golden arhat

03-28-2007, 04:29 AM

You're question regarding the flag: How bout asking yourself why the UK thinks so highly of an in-bred family and call them royalty? :p

umm i dont

hell not alot of ppl do

Mr Punch

03-28-2007, 06:35 AM

xcakid

03-28-2007, 07:06 AM

Well if you can't see anything wrong with your situation Mr Punch then I guess it would be like arguing with the wall.

BruceSteveRoy

03-28-2007, 07:24 AM

i am not usually in the habit of quoting redneck stand up comics but whenever anyone brings up the deathpenalty i cant help but be reminded of ron whites bit about execution.

"if you kill somebody in texas we'll kill you back. most states are trying to abolish the death penalty, we're putting in an express lane."

and shortlee learn to be more tactful. unless you are a troll which is fine but if you are going to be a troll than i suggest hone your skills elsewhere first. troll fu is a precarious art.

BruceSteveRoy

03-28-2007, 07:39 AM

mr punch is my hero

Scott R. Brown

03-28-2007, 07:59 AM

I think shortlee is just a newbie and not a troll. He hasn't learned the BB culture/etiquette yet.

I made a comment to him on another thread starting out with something like, "Here in America we don't....."

It is possible this was the source of his questions. It seems to me he is trying to understand American culture. His misunderstanding of how to ask questions should not be held against him yet.

My brother-in-laws father coined an apropos maxim:

"Do not attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence."

In this circumstance we might restate it as; "Do not attribute to malice what can be explained by naiveté."

BruceSteveRoy

03-28-2007, 08:10 AM

either that or he is intentionlly being inflammatory to get a rise out of the americans on the board in an attempt to see if we are intrinsically patriotic when people challenge our values. for instance calling the american flag a rag. but i would have to say that the opinions that shortlee has of the american populace are at best myopic and at worst sterotypical.

Scott R. Brown

03-28-2007, 08:30 AM

Yes but perhaps we all have stereo-typical views that we may not be aware of. He sounds like a college kid who is trying to understand things to me and may not have mastered the BB etiquette yet. He has very few posts so far.

His original comments were replied to with vitriol so I think it might be understandable that he would reply with like words if his original intent was misunderstood to be trolling.

I am just saying it is too soon to make a definite judgment based upon one thread.

BruceSteveRoy

03-28-2007, 08:30 AM

In this circumstance we might restate it as; "Do not attribute to malice what can be explained by naiveté."

i would agree based on the first post but the second one seems like he is either dense or rude.

personlally i think that it is a more interesting topic to look at americans that feel patriotic to their own culture or culture's nation. i grew up in NJ. huge italian population and everyone had italian flags in their yards, tatoos of italian flags etc they are american but they identify themselves more readily as italian.

or the irish. all the irish i knwo are very proud of being irish. i am part irish but never really identified myself as being irish. other than i like to fight and drink ;) lol jk. but almost all of my irish friends would identify themselves as irish as easily as american even though they lived here their whole lives and so did their parents.

or the puerto rican flags, mexican flags, dominican flags, greek flags, etc etc my neighbor back home has a huge british flag in her yard. the point is american patriotism isnt just about saluting a flag evidenced by most americans identifying themselves as something in conjunction with american. the point of america and the "rag" as you called it is a unifying banner for all of these groups. its not a perfect system (not by a long shot) but i challenge anyone to find one that is.

my problem is with people that can't appreciate their nation, their culture or whatever without trying to put down another.

Scott R. Brown

03-28-2007, 08:45 AM

Hi Bruce,

Your points are well made.

Think of it like this:

"A" makes a seemingly (to himself) innocent comment.

Everyone jumps down his throat about the comment.

"A" doesn't understand the vitriol because he meant no offense and thought he was asking a sincere question, albeit crudely stated in the eyes of the audience. He therefore feels defensive and reacts with anger. that is return the vitriol with more vitriol. This is a rather common scenario i think.

The putting down of other cultures in order to puff up ones feelings of ones own is just human psychology. It is no different than putting down another football team that is an opponent of your own.

It is that humans are inherently tribal in their attitudes.

BruceSteveRoy

03-28-2007, 08:47 AM

point taken.

AJM

03-28-2007, 10:17 AM

Americans are programmed to be non tribal individuals so that we will never agree on anything, particularly our problems sothat by the time anyone comes up with a solution it will be decades out of date and fundamentally useless.
This message was brought to you by the multinational corporate states of Amerika. Drink more soda, drink more beer, watch some telly and STFU.

golden arhat

03-28-2007, 11:30 AM

Sh!t, I was wrong.

Shortlee just posted this thread as a prelude to airing his cliched ill-thought out Yank-bashing before accusing others of not being level-headed. Those pesky kids.

Arhat, don't get me wrong, I love you mate, so untainted by common sense or insight, and yet so c0cksure. Sweet. English to a fault.

umm i dont bash yanks, i bash people who have differing views
its called an argument
i havn't been so smart recently i'l admit that
but i still dont get why you have to mock me
considering i agree with what most of you say (just havnt been so articulate recently) lol i hope your opinion of me will get better
and stop being so condescending

basically i disagree with black jack and rogue ( lol rogue is usually content with just being rude to me most of the time lol one time his entire argument consisted purely of copying my "about me" on myspace and calling me stupid) on most topics
this is not to say i am left or right i dissaprove of labels like that
just liberal with my thoughts (and stupidity)

its weird lol everyone talks about how nice and intelligent and nice i am in life

but on the web i can be a real pr!ck innit ?

anyway as for my views ask away in fact i'm sure u'd probably get a better understanding of me that way
instead of labelling me as a stupid mindless drone
so yeah i hope you will actually bother reading more thatn 20 of my words some times

i'll try to be smarter
thankyou
:D

rogue

03-28-2007, 11:57 AM

but i still dont get why you have to mock me

Some things are just meant to be Fred. :p

rogue

03-28-2007, 12:06 PM

so why have a go at me then ? surely you wouldnt care or know what i was on about

and yeah how you decide i'm a pushover by not knowing me
and because i obviously have different beliefs is real mature of you

Everything one needs to know about GA. (sorry bro, you dragged me into this thread)

hi i am fred i live in oldham north greater manchester, i am originaly from north london.
ive been told im arrogant, ive been told i have a massive ego, ive been told i'm too head strong and over confident, ive been told i'm too lazy, but thats ok ,nothing phases me much,(and hey it might just be true)

i'm all instinct and impulse i don't plan anything

i know everything changes and nothing is permanent in this world, this saddens most but it gives me hope. i try not to cling to anything for that reason. i roll with the punches

make sense ??

anyway back to the main subject ME !! (whatever that is)

i can be quiet and unasuming, i can be LOUD and attention seeking, calm and collected some times, i can get angry and flip out at ppl at others,

I LOVE MARTIAL ARTS, and i love philosophy, ,
i try to judge ppl on merit and the choices they make often tho i get the wrong end of the stick, (innit aimee) i live in the now,

I'm a buddhist,
my friends are very important to me(tho i dont have many)

my girlfriend, aimee, means a lot to me. she's the only one i'd clean my room for.

i love everyone (well actually i dont i hate loads of ppl),
im very untidy,
im true to myself,
i hate grammar,
but love messing with words,
im opinionated but always open to new ideas,

i'm a peaceful enough guy within reason
don't push me (no joke)
Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket
and i have a weird sense of humour and music,
i ****in hate scene kids (there are exceptions) ,

i think into and about stuff way too much but dont usually stress myself out about it,
i think im quite nice,
u might think so too,

golden arhat

03-28-2007, 12:20 PM

and that i think revealed a whole lot more about you than me

@PLUGO

03-28-2007, 12:26 PM

hmnmm perhaps a bit of history on the Pledge of Allegiance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance) and the criticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance_criticism) it receives, might be of interest.

rogue

03-28-2007, 12:28 PM

and that i think revealed a whole lot more about you than me

Not as revealing as this picture.

http://myspace-846.vo.llnwd.net/01363/64/86/1363676846_m.jpg :p

C'mon Fred, you're an attention hound. :D

golden arhat

03-28-2007, 12:35 PM

Not as revealing as this picture.

http://myspace-846.vo.llnwd.net/01363/64/86/1363676846_m.jpg :p

C'mon Fred, you're an attention hound. :D

lol that was halloween

i think its funny and thats the point

The Xia

03-28-2007, 12:37 PM

Are you two going to be the next forum rivalry?
Like Abel and Knifefighter?
I called it first folks!

golden arhat

03-28-2007, 12:41 PM

apparently hahahah

rogue

03-28-2007, 12:44 PM

lol that was halloween

i think its funny and thats the point

What the heck are you supposed to be, somekind of weird cowboy?

Are you two going to be the next forum rivalry?
Like Abel and Knifefighter?
I called it first folks!

Naw, I'm just trying to help GA promote his myspace page. He must have gotten a lot of hits with my help.:D

Black Jack II

03-28-2007, 12:50 PM

Rogue...

LMAFAO!!!!

You just made my day.:D

golden arhat

03-28-2007, 01:05 PM

What the heck are you supposed to be, somekind of weird cowboy?

Naw, I'm just trying to help GA promote his myspace page. He must have gotten a lot of hits with my help.:D

lol a gangsta
it didn't work

rogue

03-28-2007, 01:13 PM

Looks like you went to the Seven* school of street cred.

You know Fred, there are some things us white boys should just never even try.:D

golden arhat

03-28-2007, 01:46 PM

eminem proved that lol

i'm assuming u are aware that isnt how i dress usually

SanHeChuan

03-28-2007, 01:55 PM

D@mn 7*'s losing street cred and he isn't even here. :D

rogue

03-28-2007, 02:37 PM

eminem proved that lol

i'm assuming u are aware that isnt how i dress usually

Far be it for me to assume anything. :D
One these might be a little easier to do authentically. ;)
http://www.drbukk.com/images9/cebina.jpg

SanHeChuan, If I took away 7's street cred points while he was here he might ride me down an escalator or something.

golden arhat

03-28-2007, 02:53 PM

lol actually where i live its people dress like both those pictures add tracksuits
greater manchester is a weird place lol

Ben Gash

03-28-2007, 03:11 PM

For the inside scoop on what things are like down GA's way go to
www.chavscum.co.uk :D

LeeCasebolt

03-28-2007, 03:17 PM

I was just wondering if any of you chaps and chapesses from the USA find your martial arts philosophy and values conflict with your american philosophy and values.

Such a silly question. As if anything were more American than beating the living crap out of people...

rogue

03-28-2007, 03:17 PM

Hey, you Brits are trying to steal our redneck culture!:D

I've posted this before but the new guys like Fred may like it.
http://www.drbukk.com/gmhom/park.html

Of course here's a photo from back in the day when Watchman and I were a great superhero duo. That's the Watchman's Mullet Mobile. My sidekick cycle is right behind it.
http://www.drbukk.com/gmhom/images/batmobile.jpg

Ben Gash

03-28-2007, 03:19 PM

I think the American side of the problem comes from the lack of knowledge many Americans exhibit regarding their own history (see this thread for numerous examples) never mind anyone else's, coupled with the lack of geopolitical knowledge that often goes with it.
On our side, if you'd been forced to endure Braveheart, The Patriot and U-571, you'd be pretty POd

golden arhat

03-28-2007, 03:21 PM

For the inside scoop on what things are like down GA's way go to
www.chavscum.co.uk :D

west side lmao
or is that northwest side ?
or as vicki pollard puts it
west country

lol good old chavs

golden arhat

03-28-2007, 03:27 PM

rogue

03-28-2007, 03:27 PM

golden arhat

03-28-2007, 03:35 PM

Pish, pish. All the worlds problems come from England not controlling France.:D

see now their i agree with you

FRENCH PEOPLE SUCK !!

what i dont get is why americans dont like em
we english have got an excuse and that is centuries of warring and football,

Ben Gash

03-28-2007, 03:38 PM

Black Jack II

03-28-2007, 03:50 PM

David Jamieson

03-28-2007, 03:57 PM

If you think French people are bad you should see French Canadians. Anyway, the French REALLY hate Americans. See the real problem is that after the second world war we liberated them before they had a chance to surrender to us and form a collaborative government ;)

don't you live in swindon?

trust me, you would hate the english from swindon, they can barely utter a word that makes any sense and they are also a pack of poncy gits.

:D

I live in Ontario and have many friends who are quebecois, my parents are american and english and they both live in canada. My grandparents were all brits except my dads mom whos an american. I have cousins and uncles et al in canada, the uk, the USA, Norway, and even south africa. Trying to narrow it all down to a black and white this is this and that is that is an exercise in monumental stupidity.

I don't understand how war conflicts with martial values. I mean come on, you don't learn MA just to be one more wanker with a gi on do you? If you do, then you're no martial artist you're a poser and a martial atrist will one day crush you and your little doggy to. :p

Merryprankster

03-28-2007, 04:15 PM

Hmmm.

I seem to remember having a class in international relations that tried to define American values.

It was pretty interesting.

Basically, you just sort of came away with the "bundling swirl of contradictions" thing.

Which is fine, because that tends to mitigate stupidity over the long haul.

I'm trying to remember some of the things...

Solution oriented
Belief that no problem is unsolvable
Predisposition to action
Messianic (read: mission to save the world, not "come to Jesus.")

There may have been more, but I seem to recall these were the ones we could all agree on.

The last two, of course are what tend to **** people off - especially the last one....The last one is less obnoxious to others in our isolationist phases though. Then the Messianic thing tends to manifest as "beacon/example to the world," as opposed to mucking about in other people's affairs.

golden arhat

03-29-2007, 01:18 AM

don't you live in swindon?

trust me, you would hate the english from swindon, they can barely utter a word that makes any sense and they are also a pack of poncy gits.

since when did you speak britainese DJ ?

golden arhat

03-29-2007, 01:19 AM

rogue

03-29-2007, 06:36 AM

yup great country
(oops sorry yank bashing again)

u know rogue for all your evil
your not that bad (I dun contradikted ma self) :p

Aw crap, all that work I put into being an ******* down the tubes. ;)

Just remember the words of the Great Al Bundy, "It's wrong to be French".

Do people still remember Married with Children or am I making another outdated reference?

laugarkuen

03-29-2007, 07:23 AM

Pish, pish. All the worlds problems come from England not controlling France.:D

Yes, if we had only controlled the French better in the 18th Century America may still have been just another British colony :D

BruceSteveRoy

03-29-2007, 07:29 AM

Aw crap, all that work I put into being an ******* down the tubes. ;)

Just remember the words of the Great Al Bundy, "It's wrong to be French".

Do people still remember Married with Children or am I making another outdated reference?

http://home.nikocity.de/nomaam/Albundy/al065b.jpg

Siu Lum Fighter

03-30-2007, 12:50 AM

originally posted by Ben Gash
I think the American side of the problem comes from the lack of knowledge many Americans exhibit regarding their own history (see this thread for numerous examples) never mind anyone else's, coupled with the lack of geopolitical knowledge that often goes with it.
Ain't that the truth. One thing that never ceases to amaze me about all of these French bashers is that they don't seem to realize, or know, that America wouldn't even be a country if it wasn't for France. Not only that, but they gave us the Statue of Liberty as a gift!! Why isn't it considered un-patriotic for Americans to bash the French?

rogue

03-30-2007, 04:26 AM

And France would be a German suburb if not for the Americans.

Why isn't it considered un-patriotic for Americans to bash the French? Because Charles de Gaulle & Henri Giraud were a-holes. Those clowns were no Lafayette. And anyway it's not considered un-patriotic to bash our own country so why should we give someone else that courtesy.:D

Ben Gash

03-30-2007, 04:40 AM

Whereas I'm English, so it's my national duty to bash the French :D
I tell you what, the French leadership must have been so glad they decided to p*ss off the British by disrupting our supply lines during the War of Independance, especially when those ideas of liberty and fraternity took hold in France :D

rogue

03-30-2007, 05:47 AM

Heck, the French loved you so much that in taking Algeria from them you guys had to pretend to be Yanks, and we had to make sure the French knew we weren't Brits.:D Something about they might surrender to us, but they sure as heck wouldn't surrender to you without one helluva fight.:D

And we may have still owed you a few arm punches for that entire burning of Washington thingy and supporting the wrong side during the War of Northern Aggression. Otherwise known in the North as the Civil War. ;)

Ben Gash

03-30-2007, 06:15 AM

Hey, any political credit America felt it had was more than used up between 1945 and 1955.
As for the civil war, the civil war was a multi layered issue, a lot less black and white (no pun intended) than general belief, and history is after all written by the winners. As for the burning of Washington, it gave you one of your most distinctive national landmarks, what are you complaining about? Independence Day would have looked rubbish if they'd blown up a large red brick building at night ;)

rogue

03-30-2007, 06:35 AM

You mean the South didn't win? If we didn't then why do we have all these big statues?

http://www.monumenthouse.com/richmond/monument/

rogue

03-30-2007, 06:41 AM

And don't forget that 2007 is the 400th anniversary of the British commercial exploitation of the virgin lands of the New World and stealing of land from the native inhabitants. :D But you won't hear me complain about it.

Jamestown And The American Experience
By Aaron Kessler
March 23, 2007

It was a North-South thing.

At least that’s one explanation for why, as the 400th anniversary of the founding of Jamestown approaches this year, most people still associate the pilgrims landing at Plymouth Rock with the birth of America.

“The victors do tend to write the histories,” said William M. Kelso, author of “Jamestown: The Buried Truth,” and head archaeologist for the Jamestown Rediscovery Project. “Plymouth really took off [after the Civil War], as far as what was in the textbooks and what became our dominant creation myth.”

Kelso and historian James Horn spoke Friday at Vinegar Hill as part of the Virginia Festival of the Book.

Kelso believes that Jamestown, which was settled prior to Plymouth Rock, is a more apt place to start the clock on the American experience.

“When the pilgrims landed in 1624, there were already 1,232 people living in Virginia,” he said. “We started with representative government in 1619 ... and it still continues.”

Kelso said the settlement of the Virginia colony set the stage for an English foothold in the New World, even if Jamestown itself did not ultimately succeed as was hoped.
Horn, also an author and vice president of research at the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation, agreed. He said that the development of the American colonies tends to get taken for granted.

“There’s this fallacy that America would have started the same way no matter what,” Horn said. “But when you think about it, would Plymouth have happened if Jamestown had collapsed? Would the English have continued to look to the East Coast of North America for colonization or simply looked elsewhere such as the Caribbean? Who knows?”

The 400th anniversary celebration of Jamestown will feature a series of events later this year. The premier event will be the “America’s Anniversary Weekend,” which will be held at the Jamestown sites over three days starting May 11.

Those who visit the site of the original James Fort can thank Kelso. It had been thought the fort had been washed away by the James River, but Kelso and his staff thought otherwise and in 1996 uncovered the remains of James Fort.

Ben Gash

03-30-2007, 06:56 AM

Hey, if you want to complain about the situation that set the foundation for your entire life, be my guest ;)
And of course it was the BRITISH who systematically destroyed the indigenous peoples, trashed their way of life and p*ssed all over their customs :rolleyes:
If you look at the British empire as a whole, that wasn't the typical MO. We adopted a Roman model of integration with minor modification.

rogue

03-30-2007, 07:53 AM

Foisting cricket on the conquered people is not a minor modification.:D

Ben Gash

03-30-2007, 08:02 AM

It wasn't foisted, they all quite obviously love it (hence why most of them are better at it than us).

rogue

03-30-2007, 08:27 AM

Yeah, that's gotta hurt. Maybe that's why you all still pal around with us. No matter what we do at least we won't beat you at cricket.:D

Ben Gash

03-30-2007, 08:32 AM

I dunno, 15 years ago you managed to beat us at soccer :eek: :mad: :o :(

BruceSteveRoy

03-30-2007, 08:54 AM

lol we made you say soccer.

Shaolinlueb

03-30-2007, 09:16 AM

i dont always agree with the presidents and thier men, but i love usa and i think its the best country in the world.

swearing to the flag every morning? good.

death penalty - muslim law is eye for eye, arm for arm right? i dont think anything wrong with death penalty if they really did committ the crime. f them.

Ben Gash

03-30-2007, 09:23 AM

^ A story that may or may not be true
When Napolean's army was on the march, a Soldier was caught stealing food. He was hauled up before the General and sentenced to be hanged. The soldier's mother threw herself at their feet and begged for mercy. Napolean asked "He is a thief, why should he deserve mercy?"
To which the woman replied "If he deserved it then it wouldn't be mercy."
Whether or not people deserve what they get is irrelevant. The question is as people and as a society, do we want to be gracious and merciful, or do we want to be cold, hard, and unforgiving? The problem with choosing the latter, is that someday you may want someone to be the former to you.

Siu Lum Fighter

04-08-2007, 01:00 AM

I'm an American, but patriotism can be the last refuge of scoundrels. If you aspire to be anything like a descent, humble, and righteous martial artist, then you have to agree that this war has been initiated for the most despicable and evil reasons. How can anyone just blindly say, "I love America, it's the best country in the world no matter what!!" while we're obviously acting like the worst tyrants in the world right now? After watching this video I know certain people on this forum (you know who you are) are going to be saying something like, "ya, all right, burn em!!" but just know that you're aspiring to be just as wicked and evil as the men who have perpetrated this stupid, costly, and destructive war.

Be forewarned, some of these images are BRUTAL:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8905191678365185391

FuXnDajenariht

04-08-2007, 06:23 AM

i can honestly say nowadays im ashamed to be an American.... i expect soo soo much more from us. our impeachment laws should definitely be more versatile, i suppose you could say.

i mean really.......... how bad does a President have to be before you can get a retry???

Black Jack II

04-08-2007, 09:58 AM

If you aspire to be anything like a descent, humble, and righteous martial artist, then you have to agree that this war has been initiated for the most despicable and evil reasons

That is a bonafide preposterous statement. It's astonishing how dawrfish that line of thinking really is. A decent, humble and righteous martial artist.....who says to do that you have to think the war is based on your reasoning. :rolleyes:

For some people your dead wrong.

How can anyone just blindly say, "I love America, it's the best country in the world no matter what!!"

Because it is. No matter how guilty you feel for the wealth we have.

while we're obviously acting like the worst tyrants in the world right now?

No we are not. Your agenda speaks loud enough in the whole post.

Siu Lum Fighter

04-08-2007, 04:00 PM

Hmm...our so-called leaders are saying we're in a "war that will not end in our lifetimes." We invaded a country that never attacked us and we've killed and basically caused the deaths of MASSIVE amounts of civilians (over 650,000 according to Lancet studies). We're torturing people and holding them without due process. We're threatening to attack Iran. We whole-heartedly support Israel (or "Jewish America") in their brutal, militaristic ventures. ETC, ETC, ETC...

Ya, you're right dude. What choice do we have? We need to stop this "Axis of Evil" in their mad dash to take over the world before its too late!! Just look at how much ground they've already made. Iran's on the verge of having ONE nuclear missle!! And N. Korea? They've already got one or two!! Of course their not going to let the fact that we have over 15,000 stop them from using them. Ya, you're right; there are some real tyrants out there that need to be dealt with i-f*cking-mmediately!!

Siu Lum Fighter

04-08-2007, 04:21 PM

And since when does a county's wealth make it "the best country in the world"? Hitlers Germany was extremely wealthy.

We only give financial aid to countries that allow our corporations to run rampant all over them. We don't help countries that our elites can't make money off of. The countries in the third world that do have American friendly governments are some of the most unsafe, war-torn places on earth. If I dredged up all of the examples, this post would be a novel.

Mr Punch

04-08-2007, 11:27 PM

Yeah, that's gotta hurt. Maybe that's why you all still pal around with us. No matter what we do at least we won't beat you at cricket.:DThe first International Cricket Test Match was between England and America. You won. :eek: :( :mad:

Mr Punch

04-08-2007, 11:56 PM

lol we made you say soccer.lol, it's called English - we gave you the whole friggin language! :D

Ben, you never told us what happened! Did he get hung or what?

I love my country for what I... we have the potential to make it - despite what successive self-serving governments make of it. The words of 'Jerusalem' sum up part of patriotism for me.

If you rest on your laurels just saying you love your country, you're a fool. In that way patriotism is like martial arts: it is never finished, it is a way, it is a constant search for improvement. If you just say your country is great and free, you're deluding yourself - you need to work harder to identify what makes your country great and free, and what you are willing to sacrifice to keep it/make it that way.

Because of this, although I agree with neither, I'm more likely to side with the naysayers than the blind patriots.

specialed

04-09-2007, 02:37 PM

Hmm...our so-called leaders are saying we're in a "war that will not end in our lifetimes."

It takes more than one faction to have a war.
Right now as you read this, there are little school children being taught that the US and Western Culture are evil and should be destroyed. Do you have children? Are they being taught to hate, kill, and have it justified by religious means? Or are you one of those types that wants to sit down and talk about things, hold hands play peacemaker while those who see your life as less valuable than an animal continue to train for, supply, and carry out acts of violence against you?

We invaded a country that never attacked us and we've killed and basically caused the deaths of MASSIVE amounts of civilians (over 650,000 according to Lancet studies). We're torturing people and holding them without due process. We're threatening to attack Iran. We whole-heartedly support Israel (or "Jewish America") in their brutal, militaristic ventures. ETC, ETC, ETC...

We invaded a county that harbored, supported and gave birth to those who attack us through nonconventional acts of violence: aka terrorism. A county that was under attack from its own twisted regime, where if you happened to be born into the wrong tribe or group you could be killed at any time by your own governement. Oh wait, that's right, it's OK to use mustard gas on those pesky Kurds right? It's ok to allow terrorist training camps safe haven within your borders so long as they buy your weapons and make thier payoffs. Right?:rolleyes: Yeah, so sorry for the civillians forced to be used as human shields by the righteous former government of Iraq. It's horrible how those nice gilded palaces and estates were ruined, they looked so nice next to the shacks and tents that the human shields lived in.

Yeah, that's right too, those terrible, terrrible jews. They're so bad. They're so very bad for proactively defending themselves. We definately should stop supporting a full blown democracy that participates in worldwide commerce and has stood by our country's side since its own inception. Gosh darn it, we simply prefer fanatical car bombing mullahs that contribute Nothing to the planet other than chaos and mayhem. Don't you know there's no Starbucks in Syria? :rolleyes:

Ya, you're right dude. What choice do we have? We need to stop this "Axis of Evil" in their mad dash to take over the world before its too late!! Just look at how much ground they've already made. Iran's on the verge of having ONE nuclear missle!! And N. Korea? They've already got one or two!! Of course their not going to let the fact that we have over 15,000 stop them from using them. Ya, you're right; there are some real tyrants out there that need to be dealt with i-f*cking-mmediately!!

Yep. One missile that WILL be used is far more deadly than 15,000 that won't be sold, or used in the name of some radical religous belief. :mad:
Let Iran have their missile. Watch them use it. Then watch all the cowards scramble to lay down instead of retaliate. Lay down sheep.
North Korea too, old Kim he's our pal. No way he'd ever actually harm a fly right? He's such a good leader, very friendly to his people, even the ones he forces into slave labor.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE!!!

Chief Fox

04-09-2007, 03:36 PM

Queen Elisabeth is a man!

Tony Blair is a butt plug for George Bush.

golden arhat

04-09-2007, 03:55 PM

It takes more than one faction to have a war.
Right now as you read this, there are little school children being taught that the US and Western Culture are evil and should be destroyed. Do you have children? Are they being taught to hate, kill, and have it justified by religious means? Or are you one of those types that wants to sit down and talk about things, hold hands play peacemaker while those who see your life as less valuable than an animal continue to train for, supply, and carry out acts of violence against you?

We invaded a county that harbored, supported and gave birth to those who attack us through nonconventional acts of violence: aka terrorism. A county that was under attack from its own twisted regime, where if you happened to be born into the wrong tribe or group you could be killed at any time by your own governement. Oh wait, that's right, it's OK to use mustard gas on those pesky Kurds right? It's ok to allow terrorist training camps safe haven within your borders so long as they buy your weapons and make thier payoffs. Right?:rolleyes: Yeah, so sorry for the civillians forced to be used as human shields by the righteous former government of Iraq. It's horrible how those nice gilded palaces and estates were ruined, they looked so nice next to the shacks and tents that the human shields lived in.

Yeah, that's right too, those terrible, terrrible jews. They're so bad. They're so very bad for proactively defending themselves. We definately should stop supporting a full blown democracy that participates in worldwide commerce and has stood by our country's side since its own inception. Gosh darn it, we simply prefer fanatical car bombing mullahs that contribute Nothing to the planet other than chaos and mayhem. Don't you know there's no Starbucks in Syria? :rolleyes:

Yep. One missile that WILL be used is far more deadly than 15,000 that won't be sold, or used in the name of some radical religous belief. :mad:
Let Iran have their missile. Watch them use it. Then watch all the cowards scramble to lay down instead of retaliate. Lay down sheep.
North Korea too, old Kim he's our pal. No way he'd ever actually harm a fly right? He's such a good leader, very friendly to his people, even the ones he forces into slave labor.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE!!!

whats wrong with you ?

it takes 2 to tango fair enuff but we started it
u think they were our enemies ?
WRONG
we financed and supplied both the iraqis and the saudis

why do u think kids have learned to hate the west ?
for no reason at all ?
WRONG ppl hate us because we bomb the **** out of'em
we dont bomb 'em cos they hate us

the israeli's are totally in the wrong
germany wronged them and suddenly we have to give them a country ?
on land neither we nor they own ?
they barge in and bully the entire middle east bomb civillians and just generally strut around like they own the place (which they DO NOT) they then of course wonder why the whole middle east hates them
sure sucide bombing civillians is not very nice but hey when you aint got an army that can fight back against these opressors u make do with what you got (if some big country tried to invade the U.S then tried to claim that they really owned the place anyway would you not be severly fuked off ?

(btw here are the recorded casualties for the 1982 israeli lebanon war :17,825 Arabs (civillian)
5,515 in beirut alone
9,797 military (syrian and lebanese)
675 (israeli of which the grand majority are military personel)

and here are the casualties for the most recent conflict

hezbollah 250-1000
lebanese civillians 4,409 (of whom roughly 30% were under 13 and not taking into account those killed by landmines later on)
israelie defense force (116-120)
43 israeli civillians were killed
who are the real terrorists ?

north korea has only just come up with the ability to explode a nuclear "device"
they lack the capability to use it as a weapon but yes should not be allowed to proceed further (their goal has always been as stated by DPRK themselves to invade japan and south korea)

as for iran do you really think that an oil rich country would really want to **** off most of its potential customers ?
they want nuclear power not nuclear weapons
finally someone sticks up to the U.S and suddenly "they" are evil ?

its this stupid "us" vs "them" mentality thats whats wrong
iranians and arabs are ppl just like everyone else

put yourself in their shoes ..... how would you feel about it ?

FuXnDajenariht

04-09-2007, 04:15 PM

lol i absolutely love the fact that they "allowed" themselves to be used as human shields, then gives us the moral right to shoot through them.....

i also love how they "allowed" their country to be overrun with very well armed, very dangerous fanatical militants. all they would of been required to do was stage an armed uprising and somehow expel these people from their country, so **** simple. whats wrong with those people? they would of surely succeeded where even the entire American military failed.....uh huh...that reeks of a solid grasp of reality.

maybe if they asked them nicely to leave?

golden arhat

04-09-2007, 04:15 PM

not only that
but these zionist pigs are fascists
if you are not jewish u are simply not given the rights that jews have
if you are not jewish they can take your land away LEGALLY

No Israeli nationality applies to all citizens, as does a US nationality in the United States
http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0190/9001020.htm

remember 1939 people

just because they are jewish doesnt stop them being rascists

Black Jack II

04-09-2007, 04:47 PM

Ah those poor little terrorist Palestinians.....I will find time in my schedule to give a flying sh!t.

Hey, lets find ways to not blame a country whose leaders funnel cash meant to increase terrorism on civilians, I mean everyone loves and can support a people who kills uppity jewish children with c-4 wired to there chests.:rolleyes:

No lefty wants to be candid and state that the real reason they hate Israil is that they dig Palestinian Nationalism and love to find time to throw out the word Zionist Pig because well, it sounds so much more uber hip and global instead of just yelling out Hebe.

Poor...poor aging hippies...

Merryprankster

04-09-2007, 04:50 PM

If you aspire to be anything like a descent, humble, and righteous martial artist, then you have to agree that this war has been initiated for the most despicable and evil reasons.

Gosh. That may be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

One does not follow from the other at all.

Merryprankster

04-09-2007, 04:53 PM

For the Israel haters...

is anybody here familiar with the history of that region? Anyone?

Extending say...to the Ottoman empire?

Because if you're not, then how can you possibly have an opinion that's worth anything?

Really, this extends to anybody, regardless of what side they take, but I've found knee-jerk reactionism to be far more common among non-Palestinians who support Palestine than among any other demographic (except right-wing Israel-supporting jews).

Black Jack II

04-09-2007, 05:08 PM

If your talking about the disintergration of the Ottoman Empire than that is where the Palestine issue really became a international deal. Take a look at the Mandates System and the League of Nations to get a closer look.

Merryprankster

04-09-2007, 05:12 PM

I was also referring to the practice of absent Ottoman landlords when the region was divided into vliayets.

rogue

04-09-2007, 05:48 PM

Didn't the War to End All Wars fix that?:confused: ;)

BTW Did you read Guests of the Ayatollah by Bowden. A good read even for people who don't like books on world events.

Siu Lum Fighter

04-09-2007, 06:13 PM

Quote:
If you aspire to be anything like a descent, humble, and righteous martial artist, then you have to agree that this war has been initiated for the most despicable and evil reasons.
"Merryprankster" replied:
Gosh. That may be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

One does not follow from the other at all.
What is your definition of a "martial artist" then? Does it merely mean to be a good fighter? To be able to efficiently kick the crap out of people? How bout the reasons one might have for kicking someone's ass? If you were a descent, and humble person, who cared about humanity, would you feel that a war being waged in the name of greed and power, that has led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, and caused the world to fear and despise your country was a good thing?
How can one purport to be aligned with the sorts of righteous ideals and principles that were originally fostered within most martial arts communities while they give a free pass to the individuals perpetrating such a thing? Please enlighten me.

specialed

04-09-2007, 09:13 PM

whats wrong with you ?

it takes 2 to tango fair enuff but we started it
u think they were our enemies ?
WRONG
we financed and supplied both the iraqis and the saudis

why do u think kids have learned to hate the west ?
for no reason at all ?
WRONG ppl hate us because we bomb the **** out of'em
we dont bomb 'em cos they hate us

This is a prime example of being a clueless moron. Clearly Golden Boy, you know NOTHING about the culture of the people we are talking about here. Take a field trip to the middle east Goldie. Have a nice long hippy peace orgy over there. See what it gets you. Please take pictures too, wait...you won't have to: you'll end up beheaded on the evening broadcast of Al Jaziera by those friendly folks.

Oh, and by the way, we didn't start anything. Coming from someone who lives in a country that has been directly affected by terrorism, one can only hope that your ignorance is due to youth and that some day you'll wake up.

the israeli's are totally in the wrong
germany wronged them and suddenly we have to give them a country ?
on land neither we nor they own ?
they barge in and bully the entire middle east bomb civillians and just generally strut around like they own the place (which they DO NOT) they then of course wonder why the whole middle east hates them

Study some history kid. Prior to WWII. Way prior.

sure sucide bombing civillians is not very nice but hey when you aint got an army that can fight back against these opressors u make do with what you got (if some big country tried to invade the U.S then tried to claim that they really owned the place anyway would you not be severly fuked off ?

Yeah that's right. It's ok to walk into a sidewalk cafe and blow up 30 sticks of dynamite if you're "oppressed". That Western oppression is jus plain awful. I mean really, its horrible the way the West brings in things like medical technology, enterprise, free trade, democracy, and the ability to write opinions like yours or mine without fearing for our lives.

(btw here are the recorded casualties for the 1982 israeli lebanon war :17,825 Arabs (civillian)
5,515 in beirut alone
9,797 military (syrian and lebanese)
675 (israeli of which the grand majority are military personel)

and here are the casualties for the most recent conflict

hezbollah 250-1000
lebanese civillians 4,409 (of whom roughly 30% were under 13 and not taking into account those killed by landmines later on)
israelie defense force (116-120)
43 israeli civillians were killed
who are the real terrorists ?

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about the violence in the past (and present) between your country and the IRA? Do you support the IRA too? Why?

War is ugly. Civillians get killed. Hezbollah was launching rockets directly at civillian targets in the last round. Are they justified in that because they are "oppressed"?

north korea has only just come up with the ability to explode a nuclear "device"
they lack the capability to use it as a weapon but yes should not be allowed to proceed further (their goal has always been as stated by DPRK themselves to invade japan and south korea)

Ah yes, the hipocrasy is starting to come out now. What are the goals of Hezbollah? What stated goal has the nutty president of Iran been ranting about for the last few years? Let me help you out here. They want to wipe Isreal off the face of the map. But that's ok with you right? Because the Isrealies are "bad" in your warped world view.

as for iran do you really think that an oil rich country would really want to **** off most of its potential customers ?
they want nuclear power not nuclear weapons
finally someone sticks up to the U.S and suddenly "they" are evil ?

Suddenly? Again, time to do a little historical research. Let them have thier nukes, see what happens. They have a well documented history of violating treaties and agreements, as well as decades of war with their Arab neighbor (IRAQ). They're not peace loving flower children like you think. Geese kid, you ought to at least realize in light of current events that they didn't even make an attempt to honor the Geneva convention when they abducted your sailors.

its this stupid "us" vs "them" mentality thats whats wrong
iranians and arabs are ppl just like everyone else

put yourself in their shoes ..... how would you feel about it ?

Yeah, just like everyone else. Back in the '80s when Iran (persian) and Iraq (arab) were having thier little border conflict. They were putting children as young as 8 years old on the front lines to shoot at eachother. Just like the Western countries right? Just like everyone else right? You're living in a dream world kid. Hahaha here's a challenge for you: Go visit Iran and wear a T-shirt that prtrays the prophet Mohammed in caricature. See how nice they are to you.

Black Jack II

04-09-2007, 09:41 PM

If you were a descent, and humble person, who cared about humanity, would you feel that a war being waged in the name of greed and power,

See, right there is your problem. You act like that viewpoint which you type in such a boisterous manner is what everyone believes in......sell your bong and buy a clue.:cool:

and caused the world to fear and despise your country was a good thing?

Wake up call....ding-ding-ding....that part of the world hated the west way before the War in Iraq dude. You forget 9/11 or any of the other zillion acts of murder they like to dish out as if it were good rootbeer flavoured rock candy.

Get off your high adn mighty bs....:rolleyes:

btw-I think Merry was asking a general question....what do you know about the middle east from a non-grandiose left wing agenda?

Siu Lum Fighter

04-09-2007, 10:52 PM

specialized:

In reference to Iran, I think it should be noted that their country's military hasn't started a war in over 200 years. During the Iran/Iraq war it was the U.S. backed Iraqi regime that decided to attack Iran. George Bush and Ronald Reagan whole-heartedly supported Saddam even though he said loony things like, "all Shiites should be wiped off the face of the earth." (he was a Sunni) It was all because the U.S. was p!ssed that the Iranian people wanted nothing more to do with the corrupt, U.S. installed, regime of the Shah. And yes, it is unfortunate that Ahmadinejad has said some of the things he has said. I don't agree with some aspects of Arab and Persian culture (I should know something about this since I had an Afghan girlfriend for five years), but that's no reason to dehumanize them and slaughter them on as large a scale as the U.S. and Israel has been for decades now. Suicide bombings have been a reaction to this, not the cause. And one thing that might prompt Ahmadinejad to say such a thing is the fact that Israel has told Iran for years that they have nuclear missles pointed directly at them and they've openly called for the U.S. to attack them and be prepared to nuke them if they don't stop enriching uranium. If some racist, religious zealot (and yes, these come in the Christian/Jewish variety too) had a gun pointed at me and told me that if I ever purchased a gun they would kill me, I might feel negatively towards them too. Get real, does Ahmadinejad really seem like the crazy, fanatical, "I'm going to immediately nuke Israel once I get the Bomb," type of individual that our U.S., corporate sponsored, Ted Turner/Rupert Murdock owned, media outlets paint him out to be? He's actually quite smart and educated, so don't believe the hype just because, "well, the TV said so, so it must be true."

Black Jack and Merry:

I actually know quite a bit about history. How far back do you want to go? The Crusades perhaps? That slaughter of 70-100,000 innocent civilians after the fall of Jerusalem must have done wonders for Christian/Muslim relations. Don't you think?

Siu Lum Fighter

04-09-2007, 11:07 PM

And isn't there a reaction to the fact that the U.S. is indiscriminately using chemical weapons, in civilian populated areas? Watch the video people, it's real (our own marines are speaking out):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8905191678365185391&q=the+fallujah+massacre

unkokusai

04-09-2007, 11:49 PM

If you aspire to be anything like a descent, humble, and righteous martial artist, then you have to agree that this war has been initiated for the most despicable and evil reasons.

How can you write something like that and resist the urge to punch yourself in the face over and over again until you pass out?

unkokusai

04-09-2007, 11:51 PM

I wonder where this a-hole moved to after he left the US? He couldn't possibly be hypocrite enough to still live in a country he hates so much.

Siu Lum Fighter

04-10-2007, 12:12 AM

I'll admit that perhaps I should have phrased that better. But what I was getting at was that you can't agree with the people who perpetrated this insane war and aspire to be any sort of righteous, humble, and humane individual. I myself am a Buddhist/Taoist and since those have been the most influential religions in Asian martial arts, I don't think it's that preposterous to claim that the real reasons Iraq was invaded go against all of the major tenets of those religions (and almost every other) as well as the most celebrated traditions and philosophies within the martial arts.

I think maybe you should punch some sense into your own head.

specialed

04-10-2007, 06:39 AM

specialized:

In reference to Iran, I think it should be noted that their country's military hasn't started a war in over 200 years.

That's all quite subjective.
They've supported financially, trained, and covertly taken part in many things.

You're the one that announced they were ashamed to be an American right? Please, feel free to defect to some other nice country. Iran would be a great choice for you to live out your days as a self proclaimed Taoist/Buddhist. If not that, try Syria or North Korea.

Btw, I dated a mexican girl once. Does that make me an expert on immegration issues?

Black Jack II

04-10-2007, 08:39 AM

Take it easy Sean Pean....:rolleyes:

You elitist progressive intellectuals always do dig a good America bashing, it must be this natural feeling of a divinely-endowed superiority that makes you sound so barnyard crazy.

It's not America's fault you have a serious interminable identity crisis.

golden arhat

04-10-2007, 09:09 AM

That's all quite subjective.
They've supported financially, trained, and covertly taken part in many things.

sounds like another country that i know

Merryprankster

04-10-2007, 04:50 PM

If you were a descent, and humble person, who cared about humanity, would you feel that a war being waged in the name of greed and power, that has led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, and caused the world to fear and despise your country was a good thing?

Imagine for a moment that a person genuinely believed the war in Iraq is not about greed and power. Imagine that that same person, while lamenting the deaths of many people, believes the war is a justifiable use of force in accordance with international law. Imagine also that just as the Cold War caused many people around the world to fear and despise your country, this is as just a cause as the Cold War.

That person can be a decent, humble martial artist, and shouldn't have to endure your failure of imagination.

Incidentally, I don't support the war in Iraq, I thought it was a lousy idea from the start. That said, anybody who thinks it was "illegal" needs to read the original language of the Article VII UN resolution on Iraq that Dubya decided to go to war under. French protestations about the "lack of automaticity" notwithstanding, the language is clear. Boo-****ing-hoo - if you don't like it, write better resolutions.

I am terribly concerned, though, about the confusion lingering over a pre-emptive strike, which is perfectly legal, and preventative war, which is not (unless, of course, you have a UN resolution covering your ass). For instance, the 1967 pre-emptive strike by Israel was completely legal under international law, regardless of what idiots like to claim.

I am curious though, what "greed" factored in here. Is this "its all about oil" again? I'm curious because that's one of the more fantastic stories out there, quickly put to death by a cursory understanding of the oil market.

sounds like another country that i know

Sounds like every country of consequence. And as long as the international system has no final arbiter, this will continue. Get over it. I might also point out that the line of accountability became far clearer and much more strict after the Church commission, but nobody ever actually remembers the Church commission or what they did because people choose to make opinions without actually knowing anything for some unfathomable reason. States must be judged like people are judged - in their totality. Comparing Iran and the United States is an absurd non-starter....it's like saying Cuba is great because they have great medical care and lots of doctors.

actually know quite a bit about history. How far back do you want to go? The Crusades perhaps? That slaughter of 70-100,000 innocent civilians after the fall of Jerusalem must have done wonders for Christian/Muslim relations. Don't you think?

Oooo! Are we going to play the "gotcha" game now? Let's all sit around and give each other a quiz! Then we can point and laugh at the person who knows the least!

The Israel-Palestine issue is incredibly complex. "Knowing quite a bit of history," at the University 101 Western Civ level doesn't exactly qualify anybody's opinion...neither would even expert knowledge of the Crusades. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you've studied the issue in some detail.

I'm no expert, but I'm reasonably well versed in the circumstances surrounding the conflict. The whole thing is maddening. Each side wishes to start with a laundry list of grievances as entering arguments for negotiation. Justice is not achieved this way - only revenge.

FuXnDajenariht

04-10-2007, 07:45 PM

That's all quite subjective.
They've supported financially, trained, and covertly taken part in many things.

You're the one that announced they were ashamed to be an American right? Please, feel free to defect to some other nice country. Iran would be a great choice for you to live out your days as a self proclaimed Taoist/Buddhist. If not that, try Syria or North Korea.

Btw, I dated a mexican girl once. Does that make me an expert on immegration issues?

no i am, you ignorant dipsh!t and your the perfect example of why.

neilhytholt

04-10-2007, 07:58 PM

no i am, you ignorant dipsh!t and your the perfect example of why.

I used to think that I was ashamed to be an American.

But, really, you can't choose your country's stupid leadership. Lots of Iranians and Iraqis are probably ashamed of their leadership as well.

It's not our leader's fault that they're greedy, money-hungry, low IQ morons who just want to enrich their pockets at the expense of others. If they weren't born of elitist inbred stock and fed on a diet of low nutrient foodstuffs, it's possible they could be something else, like a normal person, or maybe even trailer trash.

neilhytholt

04-10-2007, 08:16 PM

Like this article. His use of 'inbred' instead of 'ingrained' ... maybe he's trying to tell us something?

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/democracy/bush/stories/bush/

"Ron Kaufman, a former adviser to President Bush agrees: "It's inbred, I think, I really do believe it's inbred in the Bush family, that if you can make a difference, you owe it to the country to make a difference.""

unkokusai

04-11-2007, 12:13 PM

I myself am a Buddhist/Taoist .

Yeah, I doubt that very much. You are most likely a young person who was raised in a household ambiguous about religion and you took your unfulfilled need for faith and have tried to cherry-pick a few aspects of religious traditions that you think are 'cool,' and that seem 'foreign' enough to your background as to not seem threatening or obliging of any real commitment.

You also seem to be a young person who has confused the comfort of simple, categorical (and immature) political opinions with reality.

Shaolinlueb

04-11-2007, 12:23 PM

im trying to figure out american values.

so far i know, hotdogs and baseball. but those arent really values.

Black Jack II

04-11-2007, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by Siu Lum Fighter
I myself am a Buddhist/Taoist .

Yeah, I doubt that very much. You are most likely a young person who was raised in a household ambiguous about religion and you took your unfulfilled need for faith and have tried to cherry-pick a few aspects of religious traditions that you think are 'cool,' and that seem 'foreign' enough to your background as to not seem threatening or obliging of any real commitment.

You also seem to be a young person who has confused the comfort of simple, categorical (and immature) political opinions with reality.

D@mn son.....ownage.:D

neilhytholt

04-11-2007, 01:11 PM

im trying to figure out american values.

so far i know, hotdogs and baseball. but those arent really values.

American values ... China values are quickly becoming the same.

Make $ any way you can screwing over whoever you can and evading the legal system to the best of your ability.

LeeCasebolt

04-11-2007, 01:52 PM

American values ... China values are quickly becoming the same.

Make $ any way you can screwing over whoever you can and evading the legal system to the best of your ability.

Those are universal human values. Or haven't you been paying attention?

neilhytholt

04-11-2007, 01:56 PM

Those are universal human values. Or haven't you been paying attention?

It didn't seem like people were so interested in screwing each other over when I was younger. Or maybe I just wasn't paying attention.

LeeCasebolt

04-11-2007, 01:59 PM

It didn't seem like people were so interested in screwing each other over when I was younger. Or maybe I just wasn't paying attention.

You weren't. People've been ****ing each other over since time began, and every generation has said "it was better when...". It wasn't. People just blot out the bad parts in their rosy little memories.

Siu Lum Fighter

04-11-2007, 02:07 PM

originally posted by Merryprankster
That person can be a decent, humble martial artist, and shouldn't have to endure your failure of imagination.

Once again, if they agreed with a pre-emptive war that has killed hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children was justified, even after the U.N.'s own leader of the Inspection Commision (Hans Blix) ascertained there was no immediate threat, they would not only be ignorant (or just a confused, blind patriot), but not somebody who's belief system was in keeping with humble and decent people. Now, perhaps there are different gradations; they aren't necessarily as bad as say, an SS officer. But, there's just not something entirely humble and descent about someone who thinks, "yes, killing countless thousands of innocent people, it's just the right thing to do, I'm all for it." If your kid came home and said "daddy, I think I might start to have a problem with some of the kids at school," and you told him, "Billy, I want you to go kick their asses for me," would you be a descent person who knew how to raise a kid???

And the U.S. and Israel are the most notorious serial abusers of UN resolutions ever!! It reeked of hypocrisy for them to hold up a U.N. resolution as a reason to invade. Especially when, in the end, it was the U.S. and a handful of ass kissers who was asserting that Iraq was an immediate threat and not the U.N. So don't try and hide the moral issue behind the specific "language of the Article VII UN resolution." Gimme a break!

And what about the Geneva Convention? The "language" about treating prisoners and using chemical weapons is pretty clear in that document too. Once again the U.S. and Israel have been among the worst violators. More recently, we used white phosphorous in Fallujah. Who's going to hold the U.S. accountable for that one?

I am curious though, what "greed" factored in here

Are you serious?!?!?!? Halliburton and other U.S. contractors are being paid billions from Iraqi funds. And I'm sure you're going to tell me Cheney has nothing more to do with the company he used to be vice president of, right?

You seem to be living in a fantasy world where U.S. Administrations and the corporate controlled media would never blatantly lie to the people, and there's no such thing as cronyism and corrupt politicians.

By the way, why do you call yourself "Merryprankster"? Wasn't Ken Kesey a non-conformist, who believed in turning people on and getting them to see through the illusions and lies of contemporary American society? You're giving a free pass to an Administration that seems to be diametrically opposed to things the Merry Pranksters were trying to do (not that I believe dosing people without their knowledge is cool, but all the other stuff they stood for was O.K.).

unkokusai

04-11-2007, 02:09 PM

It didn't seem like people were so interested in screwing each other over when I was younger. Or maybe I just wasn't paying attention.

You weren't paying attention.

neilhytholt

04-11-2007, 02:09 PM

Are you serious?!?!?!? Halliburton and other U.S. contractors are being paid billions from Iraqi funds. And I'm sure you're going to tell me Cheney has nothing ore to do with the company he used to be vice president of, right?

When he became V.P. he moved his shares into a blind trust to avoid conflicts of interest. Of course, if Halliburton does well, his shares do well. LOL

Black Jack II

04-11-2007, 02:37 PM

I love when b!tchfit liberals start spouting about the U.N.

The U.N is a grand failure. It sucks just like its older format the League of Nations sucks. It has a legion of problems and its a parliament of American bashing thugs pretending to be the voice of the people. The only people who love the U.N are romantic college age kids who think that the world can be fixed by its absurd utopian schemes.

Who gives a flying crap what Robert Mugabe, Bashar Assad, Kim Jong-Il, Hassan al-Bashir and Fidel Castro, condemn the United States. We don't need those circle jerks badge of approval for anything.

whatever.....:rolleyes:

Pre-emptive is the best way to strike, what are you going to do, give the other army advance warning. Same applies to self defense.

And the U.S. and Israel are the most notorious serial abusers of UN resolutions ever!!

Again, as its own nation, the United States does not ever need the U.N. to approve of us protecting ourselves from future harm. Not now, not ever. The U.N. trembles at the feet of America, they know who rides on the b!tch seat.

golden arhat

04-11-2007, 02:37 PM

neilhytholt

04-11-2007, 02:48 PM

Again, as its own nation, the United States does not ever need the U.N. to approve of us protecting ourselves from future harm. Not now, not ever. The U.N. trembles at the feet of America, they know who rides on the b!tch seat.

The U.S. can't even keep out Mexican illegals. If it makes an enemy of the entire world, how do you think they will be able to stop terror attacks? This place will turn into Israel or worse like Iraq.

neilhytholt

04-11-2007, 02:49 PM

lol
actually jhon major (former prime minister) was a big shareholder in some U.S defence company (lol farenheight 9/11 stupidest movie EVER lol)
still tho point stands
during the first gulf war he must have profited immensly

who else thinks profitting from war is wrong ?

Yeah, the Carlyle Group.

Evidently people don't seem to think profiting from war or anything else is wrong judging by their comments.

unkokusai

04-11-2007, 03:01 PM

I love when b!tchfit liberals start spouting about the U.N.

The U.N is a grand failure. It sucks just like its older format the League of Nations sucks. It has a legion of problems and its a parliament of American bashing thugs pretending to be the voice of the people. The only people who love the U.N are romantic college age kids who think that the world can be fixed by its absurd utopian schemes.

Who gives a flying crap what Robert Mugabe, Bashar Assad, Kim Jong-Il, Hassan al-Bashir and Fidel Castro, condemn the United States. We don't need those circle jerks badge of approval for anything.

whatever.....:rolleyes:

Pre-emptive is the best way to strike, what are you going to do, give the other army advance warning. Same applies to self defense.

Again, as its own nation, the United States does not ever need the U.N. to approve of us protecting ourselves from future harm. Not now, not ever. The U.N. trembles at the feet of America, they know who rides on the b!tch seat.

A fine sentiment, elequently expressed.

Merryprankster

04-11-2007, 05:02 PM

SLFighter,

It's clear that you don't understand what I am saying, or, alternately, you are being willfully obtuse, with respect to the first issue. A person starting with a different set of assumptions about the way the world works might find the Iraq war a perfectly moral and justifiable use of American power. You are incredibly hubristic to denounce their MORALITY on the basis that you hold a different opinion. It is one thing to declare them wrong and to tell them that their stances promote horrible costs in blood and tragedy - needlessly. It is another to call them base, prideful and lacking in basic human decency.

So much for humility.

Secondly, I addressed ONLY the legality of the war, not it's morality, with respect to the Article VII resolution. If you read morality into that, I can't be held accountable for your comprehension problems. As an addendum, I might add that the issue of whether or not they were an imminent threat did not factor into my analysis of the legality of persuing use of force under the Article VII resolution in question, because that is not part of the resolution.

Whether or not they are an imminent threat determines the difference between pre-emptive or preventative. The first is legal, the latter not. I might also add that the first is moral, whereas the latter is immoral. However, the issue is moot given that the legality is not something I am questioning.

With respect to the UN resolutions the US breaking them, I am curious which ones you cite. Give me the list. I'll be more than happy to do my own research.

Incidentally, white phosphorus is NOT/NOT classified as a chemical weapon under any arms treaties or codicils. It is a conventional weapon. The manner in which it was deployed may or may not be acceptable, but instead of not forming an opinion until all the facts are in, I note that you automatically choose to believe anti-US rhetoric. That speaks volumes about your bias. I am personally discomfitted by the use of WP in heavily populated areas, but judgment hinges on whether the weapons were employed with the intent of causing civilian casualties, indifference to civilian casualties, or a ****-up. If you want to equate them all, I might remind you that intent makes all the difference in criminal justice, and for good reason - the moral weight is significantly different.

When I asked which greed, I was trying to determine if you were one of the oil bandwagon idiots or more focused on the Halliburton side of the house. You've now made your stance clear. Thank you.

Finally, you have absolutely no idea what my political viewpoints are and have instead, jumped to a conclusion. Several actually. It is possible to be passionately against this war and this administration while not viewing it as the result of oligarchic greed, an insatiable thirst for resources, the product of evil in the white house, etc. It is also possible to be a liberal (which I am), and not believe that the United States is the root of the world's problems, either through action or inaction.

The "Michael Moore left," which is my personal shorthand for those who think you can't be a liberal without blaming the United States for everything, have done more harm to their agenda than any other politically active segment of society that I can examine, because they discredit the liberal agenda and liberal ideas in the eyes of mainstream society.

I always run this little experiment every time I enter a political thread - being somewhat vague on purpose with respect to my personal views - to see what I am dealing with. Thanks for not disappointing me.

Now, on to my personal view.

The Bush administration will go down as one of the worst in history for its appalling lack of competance, (sp?), lack of foresight and its incredible hubris. It has combined a predisposition for action with a total lack of introspection. Hopefully, it will stand as a warning to future American voters about electing ideologues untempered by pragmatism. My more specific views on the war in Iraq can be found below.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44795&highlight=Merryprankster

golden arhat

04-11-2007, 05:46 PM

SLFighter,

Incidentally, white phosphorus is NOT/NOT classified as a chemical weapon under any arms treaties or codicils. It is a conventional weapon. The manner in which it was deployed may or may not be acceptable, but instead of not forming an opinion until all the facts are in, I note that you automatically choose to believe anti-US rhetoric. That speaks volumes about your bias. I am personally discomfitted by the use of WP in heavily populated areas, but judgment hinges on whether the weapons were employed with the intent of causing civilian casualties, indifference to civilian casualties, or a ****-up. If you want to equate them all, I might remind you that intent makes all the difference in criminal justice, and for good reason - the moral weight is significantly different.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44795&highlight=Merryprankster

so if the bush administration is guilty of anything
its guilty of manslaughter then ?

but as you say everyone has different views on the war and the way things are run
just as everyone has differing views on morality

so in a country of democracy how can one force your own ideas at a country with differing views on it down the barrel of a gun?

shouldn't we abide by our own principles ?

u know each to his own and all that
i mean spreading "freedom" was a main selling point

so shouldnt we have let them be free to be captive ? till they made up their own minds and decided against it ?

Merryprankster

04-11-2007, 06:00 PM

so if the bush administration is guilty of anything
its guilty of manslaughter then ?

No. Or are you saying that soldiers firing with intent to kill is murder?

so shouldnt we have let them be free to be captive ? till they made up their own minds and decided against it ?

Which part of my post, both here and the link to the other, did you not understand about me not being for this war?

Siu Lum Fighter

04-12-2007, 02:02 AM

Merryprankster:

Fine, perhaps my rage over the whole matter has caused me to lose track of the conversation and wrongfully engage in a character assassination or two. Sorry if I made you out to be a total sell-out. I just get frustrated when someone gets all draconian about the specific language and legality of things that, to me, just seem flat out immoral and wrong, period. Of course, that's my point of view, and by definition a liberal is someone who is broad-minded enough to accept other peoples beliefs and opinions. But there has to be some consensus on how to best proceed forward in world affairs, and didn't everyone on the security council agree that Saddam had to show that he wasn't disarming first before he was attacked? Well, now we see that he couldn't disarm if he wanted to because he didn't even have any WMD's, and it was none other than the U.S. that "supplied" evidence that he had them and he wasn't disarming (suspect radio transmissions, false intelligence, and, my favorite, aluminum tubes?!?!). You make it sound like our president and his cronies just made "bad decisions" before all of the facts were in. As if they didn't have any ulterior motives, even though they seemed totally out for blood and in defiance of the vast majority of people in the world screaming NO to this thing. They knew exactly what they were doing. And I know your going to go back to thinking I'm just another one of those "idiots," but it's a fact that BP PLC, Exxon Mobil Corp. and the Royal Dutch/Shell Group stand to make massive profits from Iraq's oil reserves (the world's second largest). Why hasn't the U.S. committed to a massive invasion of any of the numerous African nations ruled by despotic, murderous regimes? Come on dude, it's obvious! It's the elephant in the room that some people don't like to talk about; especially the b@stards who stand to gain from it. Now that you've been less vague about your views, I'll say that I respect them, but I still feel that you're missing the big picture. Ya, this Administration is full of unwise morons. But they knew exactly what they were doing, and why. And many Democrats have been on board with them all along (I like to call them Demopublicans). As a matter of fact, I don't even think the "elections" we have in the U.S. can be said to have that much legitimacy. Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris (a Republican who loves Bush) completely throwing out recounted figures during the 2000 elections should have shown you that.

Siu Lum Fighter

04-12-2007, 02:17 AM

And I was under the impression that white phosphorous was a chemical weapon. After all, it is a chemical that burns/melts the flesh off of your bones. The facts are in and that's how it was purposefully used.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8905191678365185391
Try to watch to the part where there's actual footage of it being used along with the carnage that it wrought. There's also a former U.S. marine describing how it was used and saying that, without a doubt, it's a chemical weapon (the military jargon for it is "whiskey peat")

Once again, it's as if you agree that it shouldn't be considered a chemical weapon just because it hasn't yet been classified as such under any arms treaties or codicils. Even though it can be, and is used as such.

specialed

04-12-2007, 03:07 AM

1-Well, now we see that he couldn't disarm if he wanted to because he didn't even have any WMD's,

2- and it was none other than the U.S. that "supplied" evidence that he had them and he wasn't disarming (suspect radio transmissions, false intelligence, and, my favorite, aluminum tubes?!?!).

3-And I know your going to go back to thinking I'm just another one of those "idiots," but it's a fact that BP PLC, Exxon Mobil Corp. and the Royal Dutch/Shell Group stand to make massive profits from Iraq's oil reserves (the world's second largest).

4-Why hasn't the U.S. committed to a massive invasion of any of the numerous African nations ruled by despotic, murderous regimes? Come on dude, it's obvious! It's the elephant in the room that some people don't like to talk about; especially the b@stards who stand to profit from it.

1-wrong. he had them, and he used them, just ask the kurds dipwad. where are they now? look to the neighboring countries

2-they were produced right there in iraq in factories, and much of that evidence was produced by the UN task force

3-its called business dip****. since when is making a profit bad? are you some kind of marxist? got a retirement account or 401k? if so, you're invested in oil. commerce and business make the world go round, and there's plenty of people in the middle east profiteering from oil.

4-judging from the response to current military operations, how well do you think US involvement would go over anyhwere else? btw, ever hear of somalia? grenada? panama? kuwait? haiti? selective memory and facts on your part. why is the US held to a higher moral standard than say...iran? why don't the iranians go help the poor africans? what about the chinese? or the canadians? or argentinians? or the germans? the US is ****ed if we do, ****ed if we don't.

TaiChiBob

04-12-2007, 06:56 AM

Greetings..

Eager to hold on to the same thoughts and deeds that have failed them for centuries, the former civilizations of the planet Earth eliminated themselves from their own reality..

So continue this mindless arguing about which form of violence is most acceptable..

The only people who love the U.N are romantic college age kids who think that the world can be fixed by its absurd utopian schemes.
Isn't that special? "absurd utopian schemes", yeah.. and the world's history of war has really served us well..

Again, as its own nation, the United States does not ever need the U.N. to approve of us protecting ourselves from future harm. Not now, not ever. The U.N. trembles at the feet of America, they know who rides on the b!tch seat.
It is the same nationalistic pride and independence that fuels the fires of war and domination.. we are at a pivotal point in human evolution, where we will remain warring states or a global community.. all of which won't matter if we don't grasp the Global Warming issuse..

Be well..

Black Jack II

04-12-2007, 07:24 AM

Isn't that special? "absurd utopian schemes", yeah.. and the world's history of war has really served us well..

The world has a history of many things, one of them being war, some of those wars later bringing about positive change.

we are at a pivotal point in human evolution,

No we are not, the romantics in every generation say the same thing.:rolleyes:

all of which won't matter if we don't grasp the Global Warming issuse..

That is if you follow the junk science and agenda behind the theory of global warming. No proof it even exists as a number of enviromental groups like to spout out. Contrary to the insistence of the mainstream press, washed up celebs and political machines, there is no scientific consensus on "global warming" or that – if it even exists at all – it is caused by human activity.

No scientific consensus that it exists....just like chi.

TaiChiBob

04-12-2007, 07:48 AM

Greetings..

The world has a history of many things, one of them being war, some of those wars later bringing about positive change. "some" bring about positive change.. ALL bring death and destruction, and we now have the weapons to finish it..

No we are not, the romantics in every generation say the same thing. LOL.. see next quote..

That is if you follow the junk science and agenda behind the theory of global warming. No proof it even exists as a number of enviromental groups like to spout out. Contrary to the insistence of the mainstream press, washed up celebs and political machines, there is no scientific consensus on "global warming" or that – if it even exists at all – it is caused by human activity. ... No scientific consensus that it exists....just like chi.Well.. that about does it for you, you have demonstrated a severe lack of comprehension and reasoning.. you obviously don't pay attention to the major scientific papers, meetings and, oh yeah, something like the Kyoto agreements.. you know, where world governments see the problem but you don't.. it is the nearly moronic lack of of comprehension such as you display that may actually be the downfall of this planet.. that and GWB's policy that saving the planet would be too much of an economic burden..

Be well..

Black Jack II

04-12-2007, 08:15 AM

Well.. that about does it for you, you have demonstrated a severe lack of comprehension and reasoning..

This is the typical answer from the dedicated enviromental crowd when they speak to someone who has the common sense to not believe in the Global Warming swindle.

yeah...yeah...I know, the world is heading for catastrophe, if we don't take drastic action the earth will be obliterated by floods, famine, economies will crumble, entire species of animals will turn to the porn business for work.:rolleyes:

you obviously don't pay attention to the major scientific papers, meetings and, oh yeah, something like the Kyoto agreements..

Oh, I obviously must not because I don't agree with that viewpoint.:cool:

It's a science fiction future adopted on no real scientific authority. A lot of sweeping claims with precious hard evidence to back it up. What you get is a lot of misread data put together in a reckless fashion to suit what has become a massive dogma of alarmism.

At best we have a 50-year span of accurate measurements. The only genuine global records of temperature come from weather balloons, since 1958, and from microwave sounding units, since 1978. Despite the fact that certain self-experts cry out that global warming has been in effect for the last 1,000 years.

Does the data show a slight trend in warming, sure, but nothing even close to the apocalyptic vision of hell on earth some global warming enthusiasts try to make it out to be to support there gloomy thesis. Moreover, this minor trend could have easily have been caused by irregularities like volcanic eruptions or El Nino events.

There is sooo much more I could put down but its a waste of good finger strength and I doubt it would sink into that machinehead of yours anyway. The bottom line is that genuine science is about gathering evidence and testing the veracity of theories, not cheerleading for a particular ideology.

TaiChiBob

04-12-2007, 08:32 AM

Greetings..

All i can offer is pity, Black Jack II.. it won't be appreciated, but.. it is what it is.. Like so many others, you think so highly of yourself and your uninformed opinions that you will disregard the obvious situation.. it's okay, there are those that will carry your burden of responsibility for you.. that's what it comes down to, people would rather reject the truth because it compells them to actually do something.. enjoy your irresponsible fantasy.. the hard science is in, take it or leave it.. if you actually have data that refutes the vast majority of scientists that actively study this condition, present it..

Be well...

Black Jack II

04-12-2007, 08:48 AM

Keep your meaningless pity.:p

The real pity if for the poor sucker who falls for something so overblown and misdirected. A scam that is going to destroy billions in cash and cost a ton of jobs for regular people.

that's what it comes down to, people would rather reject the truth because it compells them to actually do something

Lmao...take the blinders off and get down from your magical winged horse.

More than 17,000 scientists have signed a petition circulated by the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine saying that there is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or any other green house gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future cause ANY catastrophic heating of the Earth's climate. These are people of science and not Al Gore trying to get a Oscar.

the hard science is in, take it or leave it.

Ah...no its not. The only thing in is a agenda:rolleyes:

The funny part is that a modest amount of global warming, should it ever occur, would be beneficial to our natural world. Temperatures during the Medieval Warm Period which was roughly 800 to 1200 AD, allowed the Vikings to settle presently inhospitable Greenland, and those temperatures were much higher than the worst reported by the IPCC. The climate during the period of 5000 to 3000 BC, known as the climatic optimum was even warmer than that and it was the time recorded as when mankind began to build its first civilizations.

Do you even have a clue as to how temperature data is recorded and stored????

TaiChiBob

04-12-2007, 09:07 AM

Greetings..

Black Jack II: Sir, you really have no idea about that which you speak.. bury your head in the sand if you choose.. world governments have accepted the Global Warming evidence..

Ah...no its not. The only thing in is a agendaTrue, an agenda like, try to make a difference.. try to effect a beneficial change..

So here's some more pity..

Be well..

Black Jack II

04-12-2007, 09:17 AM

Black Jack II: Sir, you really have no idea about that which you speak.. bury your head in the sand if you choose

So the best you can do is just state obscure statements about me....?

Again, do you have a clue as to how temperature data is stored and collected?

The only way global warming is real is if Chuck Norris gets cold and decides to turn up the sun.

TaiChiBob

04-12-2007, 09:31 AM

Greetings..

You will buy into whatever you choose.. you have chosen poorly.. i really haven't the time to waste on this, or you.. so, we're done.. and, yes, i do know how temperature data is recorded and stored, i actually set up and monitored stations for the ACOE for a few years, along with establishing the MHWL (Mean High Water Line) for coastal areas in the Jacksonville and Mobile districts.. i am certified to establish MHWL and OHWL (Ordinary High Water Line for freshwater as opposed to MHWL for tidal influenced waters).. i've examined much of the data you call "junk science", and find it to be convincing.. i actually understand it..

Be well..

Black Jack II

04-12-2007, 09:50 AM

Your right this is a dead conversation, I knew it the first time I read your post, when people are so cemented in there own dogma its hard to see anything else.

Since you know so much about temperature data, you know our most reliable source is satellite readings in the lower troposhere, which btw indicate no warming trends since the readings started around 23 years ago.

Readings by the way which are accurate to within 0.01 C, and are also in sink with studies done by weather balloons. It's only the land based stations which showcase a warming trend. Stations which do not cover the entire globe and are often tainted by the heat generated by nearby urban sprawl.

Good day.:)

neilhytholt

04-12-2007, 10:34 AM

Global warming from C02 is B.S. It's not like that little C02 will raise the planet's temperature that much.

TaiChiBob

04-12-2007, 11:33 AM

Greetings..

Neil: Do the math.. what is the thickness, in miles, of the earth's active weather atmosphere? (hint: greater than 10 and less than 20).. let's assume 20 miles, which is 0.0025 of the earth's diameter.. or, on a 1 inch diameter ball-bearing, less than the thickness of the condensation from breathing on it.. which the condensation from breathing on it would be deeper, proportionately, than the deepest part of the oceans.. the nightime images from space indicate the general areas where the highest levels of pollution exist as illustrated by the lighted areas.. even a simpleton (well, most simpletons) can figure out that it wont take much to destabilize this fragile system..

But, feel free to ignore the obvious.. ignore the evidence accepted by governments world-wide, even the US.. except that GWB's oil investors feel it is too expensive to save the planet..

It's not "cool' or "tough" to ignore our children's future.. it's very irresponsible and is a signature of a declining spirit for those that reject the obvious..

Be well..

neilhytholt

04-12-2007, 11:41 AM

even a simpleton (well, most simpletons) can figure out that it wont take much to destabilize this fragile system..

Dude, I was an environmental studies major in college until I quit that because it was such a dumbed down major with no science. But I did all the requirements for it and could have double majored except I didn't want it as my major on my transcripts because it was so stupid.

Bottom line is the people blaming global warming on C02 emissions are totally ignoring the fact that the sun is a variable star.

I'm not saying that we're aren't destroying the ecosystem at an unprecedented rate. In fact, it would probably be safe to say that given the population increase and the ecosystem damage, that human life on this planet will probably be unsustainable after only about another 500 years.

But basing hypotheses and theories and policy on incomplete data and bad science isn't going to help matters any.

Black Jack II

04-12-2007, 12:18 PM

Yeah, we are all so ignorant because you declare it to be.....again get off the magical horse in the sky and put down the koolaid. According to you these 17,000 scientists that I mentioned are ignorant as well.:cool:

http://www.oism.org/pproject/

MasterKiller

04-12-2007, 12:26 PM

Black Jack II

04-12-2007, 12:51 PM

17,000 strong, plus you can see some of there own data on the global warming myth if you go through the site, again this is not Al Gore, its people with a dedicated education to what we are talking about.

TaiChiBob keeps for some reason bringing Bush into this, but what else is new, what he does not seem to understand is the "no regrets" strategy which is to invest in atmospheric research now and in reducing emissions in the future if the science becomes more compelling.

Up to that time, the dollar should be spent on investments to reduce emissions only when they make economic sense. Even with that Ameirca spends more on global warming research each year than the entire rest of the world combined.

MasterKiller

04-12-2007, 12:58 PM

The Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine (OISM) is a 501(c)3 non-profit organization which describes itself as "a small research institute" that studies "biochemistry, diagnostic medicine, nutrition, preventive medicine and the molecular biology of aging." It has 6 faculty members,[1] and is headed by Arthur B. Robinson, a scientist who has a long history of controversial entanglements with figures on the fringe of accepted research.[citation needed] OISM also markets a home-schooling kit for "parents concerned about socialism in the public schools" and publishes books on how to survive nuclear war.[citation needed]

The OISM is known mostly for the role it played in 1998 in circulating the Oregon Petition, a "scientists' petition" on global warming, in collaboration with Frederick Seitz, a retired former president of the National Academy of Sciences

The Marshall Institute co-sponsored with the OISM a deceptive campaign -- known as the Petition Project -- to undermine and discredit the scientific authority of the IPCC and to oppose the Kyoto Protocol. Early in the spring of 1998, thousands of scientists around the country received a mass mailing urging them to sign a petition calling on the government to reject the Kyoto Protocol. The petition was accompanied by other pieces including an article formatted to mimic the journal of the National Academy of Sciences. Subsequent research revealed that the article had not been peer-reviewed, nor published, nor even accepted for publication in that journal and the Academy released a strong statement disclaiming any connection to this effort and reaffirming the reality of climate change. The Petition resurfaced in 2001.

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science/skeptic-organizations.html

Black Jack II

04-12-2007, 01:11 PM

That is a opinion from a pro-global warming website which not only goes against the agency but a number of top tier anti-global warming organizations.

I highly doubt 17,000 educated researchers sent in this petition on a whim, just as much as I believe a busload of playmates are going to come to my house tommorrow and help me with Spring cleaning.

PangQuan

04-12-2007, 01:35 PM

http://www.advancingequality.org/files/immi_pr_033007[1].pdf

Form: http://capwiz.com/napalc/issues/alert/?alertid=9589961&type=PR

not sure on your thoughts, but some may not be aware. I happily signed.

not trying to start a flame war or anything, just trying to do my part and spread the word.

BruceSteveRoy

04-12-2007, 01:47 PM

Dude, I was an environmental studies major in college until I quit that because it was such a dumbed down major with no science. But I did all the requirements for it and could have double majored except I didn't want it as my major on my transcripts because it was so stupid.
.

sorry to get off topic here. neil, i know why you are so bitter. :D its not just martial arts that you are disenchanted by. education also did not meet your standards. i am not one to compromise my standards either but at the same time i am not as bitter. perhaps its time to start accepting things on their own terms rather than be unhappy because of your ideals. just trying to offer a little help.

ok continue your debate.

Black Jack II

04-12-2007, 01:48 PM

God no, I am not signing that thing.

Anything that has to do with illegal criminal's in those terms is something I am very much against. :mad:

PangQuan

04-12-2007, 02:03 PM

more power to you.

i just have many close friends who would not be in this country if it were not for their family being able to sponsor them into the USA.

hell one of my friends who was sponsored in fights in iraq atm....

neilhytholt

04-12-2007, 02:09 PM

sorry to get off topic here. neil, i know why you are so bitter. :D its not just martial arts that you are disenchanted by. education also did not meet your standards. i am not one to compromise my standards either but at the same time i am not as bitter. perhaps its time to start accepting things on their own terms rather than be unhappy because of your ideals. just trying to offer a little help.

ok continue your debate.

It's not bitter. Environmental studies wasn't really a science. I wound up getting my degree in science. Most environmental studies people aren't scientists and base their conclusions upon conjecture rather than scientific evidence.

Black Jack II

04-12-2007, 02:24 PM

Yeah, that's one thing I agree with you on. IMHO they should kick all those people out of the country. No way would I agree to any more immigration.

Are you f@cking high, I never stated that, don't agree with me if you think that's what I said. I am all for proper immigration, but not for illegal's getting a free disney pass when they have been breaking the law and don't seem to give to flying sh!t's that they are doing it.

I am talking about setting legal immigration to manageable levels and opposing any efforts to grant amnesty so we can reward people who cr@p on the law.

PangQuan

04-12-2007, 02:29 PM

The provisions to change the family immigration system would:

•Remove the ability of U.S. citizens to sponsor adult children and siblings;
•Create caps and waiting periods on parents of U.S. citizens;
•Impose $500 fees to update existing applications for everyone currently waiting in line;
•Eliminate the diversity visa program;
•Prevent workers and individuals seeking to legalize from bringing family members and create insurmountable requirements to becoming legal permanent residents.

Such measures will undermine Asian American families and communities, and will neither fix our broken immigration system nor strengthen our economy. Immigrant families strengthen our economy and its labor needs in unique and important ways. Families come together to start and run businesses. Families provide an important safety net and take care of one another in times of economic, physical, or emotional hardships. Also, having all or part of one’s family in the U.S. improves one’s ties to this country.

We need comprehensive immigration reform, but any successful reform should also fully incorporate our shared American values of family, human rights, civil liberties, and due process. It is possible to increase employment-based visas while building strong American families. I urge the White House to work with Congress to respect families and enact real immigration reform in 2007.

PangQuan

04-12-2007, 02:32 PM

suppose the natives of this great land were successfull in stopping all the un wanted immigration from europe?

i bet your glad they failed in thier attempts.

PangQuan

04-12-2007, 02:33 PM

im not worried about traffic. I ride my bike.

besides if traffic is your main concern...you dont really count.

PangQuan

04-12-2007, 02:34 PM

Actually, no, a) I wasn't alive then. b) I'm part Native American, so I couldn't give a crap about Europeans and c) things are crowded enough as it is here now.

im part native as well. AND europian.

had europians been un able to invade, occupy, and multiply, you nor i would be in the great USA

PangQuan

04-12-2007, 02:55 PM

i think pretty everyone is here for the money and the easy ride.

thats the american dream man.

Black Jack II

04-12-2007, 03:06 PM

•Remove the ability of U.S. citizens to sponsor adult children and siblings;
•Create caps and waiting periods on parents of U.S. citizens;
•Impose $500 fees to update existing applications for everyone currently waiting in line;
•Eliminate the diversity visa program;
•Prevent workers and individuals seeking to legalize from bringing family members and create insurmountable requirements to becoming legal permanent residents.

I am 100% fine with the above. The diversity visa program is a running joke.

PangQuan

04-12-2007, 03:10 PM

im here for the hamburgers

PangQuan

04-12-2007, 03:22 PM

im not touching this with a 10 foot pole!:eek:

PangQuan

04-12-2007, 03:57 PM

so your saying you want to deport everyone thats not white????????????

thats kinda messed up dude.

B-Rad

04-12-2007, 04:11 PM

As if that's any better, lol.

B-Rad

04-12-2007, 04:26 PM

Can't say I've been screwed over by too many people... of those that have, most have been American, one was Taiwanese, one African. For each non American that's tried to pull one over on me or treated me poorly, I've known 5 more who've been cool decent human beings. Maybe you just have a way of ****ing people off. You do sound pretty racist, insulting, rude, and immature a great deal of the time on these boards. If you're anything like this in real life, it's no wonder you have problems.

Merryprankster

04-12-2007, 04:51 PM

SL Fighter,

I'm not entirely certain that WP shouldn't be classified as a chemical weapon. But it's not. I would like the United States to cease using it, because I have the same moral concerns you do. However, it is definitely not a chemical weapon, by definition.

At the very least, the use of WP in populated areas, where a real risk of harming civilians is present, should be eliminated.

With respect to "it's all about oil profits," that simply doesn't make any sense. The market prices are actually a result of increased demand worldwide, something that excellent periodicals such as the Economist have made quite clear. Since different grades of crude are fungible, there is one oil market. Invading Iraq may have caused oil price spikes in the short term, but the current situation is merely supply and demand. That's all.

Now, if we construe this a different way - "it's all about oil supply," a much saner option would simply have been to try and help Nigeria stabilize itself, or some other such issue in the Gulf of Guinea nations. Of course, you could argue that the newly established AFRICOM is an attempt to do just that, if you're conspiracy minded. :)

With respect to why we haven't invaded other countries to "hep them out," I would argue that we have - with variable results all around, and a considerable amount of ill-will generated each time. Black Jack said it best - we're ****ed if we do and ****ed if we don't. Soveriegnty is not something that should be lightly violated, and IMO, should be undertaken in this day and age under the auspices of international cooperation, unless the casus belli is clear.

B-Rad

04-12-2007, 04:53 PM

I doubt it's 100% your fault, but this stuff seems to happen to you more than most people :D And it is kind of stupid to give opinions on entire nationalities based on an extremely limited local sample. Someone who would do something like that is also likely to draw a lot of negative attention from other nationalities with that sort of attitude (which helps further reinforce the negative opinion). Even if you don't act racist outright in public, your attitude is still going to be conveyed to others in more subtle ways whether you realize it or not.

unkokusai

04-12-2007, 07:38 PM

You know, I've spent a lot of time working with Chinese and with Chinese MA teachers, and I've had Chinese room-mates. And I've spent a lot of time with Indians (from India), Pakistanis, and Mexicans, Jews, Native Americans, Blacks, Koreans, Japanese, Germans, British, Australians, Dutch, French, Canadians, Italians, Lebanese, Kuwaitis, etc.

And of all the people, if I had to grade them by nationality or background on personal ethics, meaning how low will they stoop to screw somebody over to get what they want, play dirty political games, lie, cheat, steal, etc.

Chinese are by far the worst, by a huge margin. They are far and away the most corrupt people I've ever met. Not Chinese Americans, but people from China.

Next are the Indians (from India). Next the Middle Easterners. Nobody else seems to be very prone to resort to dirty games to get what they want.

I hope you're kidding, 'cause that is some seriously ridiculous bull**** right there.

unkokusai

04-12-2007, 07:41 PM

No way would I agree to any more immigration.

Immigration is, and always has been, the lifeblood of America. Its illegal immigration that needs to be stopped, firmly and quickly.

unkokusai

04-12-2007, 07:43 PM

You want to come to the country, learn how to drive and don't drive 20mph in a 40 zone on your cell phone, okay?)

So you want to deport most drivers over the age of 60 and every yuppie ******* 'multi-tasking' and not paying attention to the road? Don't be stupid, stupid.

unkokusai

04-12-2007, 07:46 PM

Why should people get a pass to come in and get everything people here worked for just because they're a tech worker or something? .

Because we need smart people coming in to offset the negative impact of morons like you on the national intelligence scale.

unkokusai

04-12-2007, 07:46 PM

I agree with this, but I'd rather let in Mexicans than Chinese, Indians or Muslims.

That's just my personal opinion.

Well, your personal opinion is bigoted nonsense.

neilhytholt

04-12-2007, 07:49 PM

Well, your personal opinion is bigoted nonsense.

Okay, whatever. I mean, I'm not going to go out and join the KKK or something. Just saying that if they ask me to vote on letting more people into the country, I'm voting NO.

Shaolinlueb

04-12-2007, 09:04 PM

i cant believe people are saying they are ashamed to be american. im american, i am embarressed and dont always agree with our leaders, but i love america and the country!! stand strong and stand proud america.

unkokusai

04-12-2007, 09:45 PM

unkokusai

04-12-2007, 09:51 PM

Okay, whatever. I mean, I'm not going to go out and join the KKK or something. Just saying that if they ask me to vote on letting more people into the country, I'm voting NO.

And if they ask me to vote on sticking your ignorant ass on a raft and setting it adrift with shoot to kill orders upon return, I'll vote yes twice.

FuXnDajenariht

04-12-2007, 10:03 PM

unkokusai

04-12-2007, 10:24 PM

we hafta do sumthin to be proud of first methinks.

So American has never done anything to be proud of? There's still room on the raft, ya ****.

Black Jack II

04-12-2007, 10:24 PM

we hafta do sumthin to be proud of first methinks.

Oh brother plz.......:rolleyes:

The list is LONG and MIGHTY.

There's still room on the raft, ya ****.

LMAO

Siu Lum Fighter

04-12-2007, 10:53 PM

Wow:eek: , I come back to this thread after a day at work and it's gone from the Iraq war, to the world's oil market, to global warming, to immigration. It's like some sort of amorphous blob. But going back to what specialized said earlier:

1-wrong. he had them, and he used them, just ask the kurds dipwad. where are they now? look to the neighboring countries
See the next rebuttal:

2-they were produced right there in iraq in factories, and much of that evidence was produced by the UN task force
The United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC) had determined that UNSCOM (United Nations Special Commission) had successfully dismantled Iraq’s unconventional weapons program during the 1990s. But why are we even debating this? This stuff should be common knowledge!! What alternate universe are you living in?? They were churning out WMD's in "factories"???? God, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here!! (k, must calm down and, breath...)

3-its called business dip****. since when is making a profit bad? are you some kind of marxist? got a retirement account or 401k? if so, you're invested in oil. commerce and business make the world go round, and there's plenty of people in the middle east profiteering from oil.
Making a profit at the expense of peoples lives is just...wrong. Need I say more.

4-judging from the response to current military operations, how well do you think US involvement would go over anyhwere else? btw, ever hear of somalia? grenada? panama? kuwait? haiti? selective memory and facts on your part. why is the US held to a higher moral standard than say...iran? why don't the iranians go help the poor africans? what about the chinese? or the canadians? or argentinians? or the germans? the US is ****ed if we do, ****ed if we don't.
There was strategic importance to every one of those countries (but I suppose you could say that of just about any country). What I was trying to point out was that it's no coincidence that this country has committed so much of it's military to a region that has the largest oil reserves in the world. We didn't commit nearly as many troops to the above mentioned countries. Those were all flash-in-pan conflicts compared to this one.
Merryprankster:
Control is power. And in a world of increased demand and dwindling supplies (there's a great deal of evidence that the rate of oil production on Earth has entered a terminal decline), it makes sense that power-hungry, megalomaniacs would want to ensure that they have control over the most significant reserves on the planet. The fact that Bush, Cheney, and friends all have ties to big oil further points to their ulterior motives for this mis-adventure. Where else are they going to ensure long-term control over that much oil?? Do you really think it was more about WMD's and a few multi-billion dollar contracts for Haliburton and other U.S. contractors?? Do you really think we cared that much about the "freedom" of the Iraqi people? Every Iraqi would agree right now that they were better off under Saddam.
And the reason we haven't comitted troops to Nigeria, is because Shell and Chevron are already there. And it's worth pointing out that they've been one of the most destabilizing and environmentally destructive forces that country has ever seen.http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/Africa/Nigeria.asp
Perhaps it's not "all about oil" (I don't believe I ever said that), but you can be **** sure it's one of the most significant reasons.
Black Jack:
So, the findings of all of those so-called "scientists" you mention aren't going to be influenced by there corporate sponsors? Talk about "junk science." Maybe global warming isn't necessarily as bad as some say, but if you spew millions of tons of chemicals and CO2 and crap into the air every day, it's got to create major changes in our atmosphere and weather patterns. If you drank pool water every day wouldn't that affect your digestive system?
neilhytholt:
This is the Kung Fu Magazine forum. You actually have the gall to put down Asians that much on here?!?!? Maybe Asian people just don't like you. They can sense that you're prejudice against them. Didn't you say you were part Native American? What if I said all the Indians were a bunch of ooga boogas who needed to get out the way for white expansion because they were too stupid to make any technological advancements for hundreds of years? You've got to be kidding?!?!

Black Jack II

04-12-2007, 11:14 PM

So, the findings of all of those so-called "scientists" you mention aren't going to be influenced by there corporate sponsors?

There is nothing so-called about them.:rolleyes:

See that is your problem right there, you have some wild need to fit everything into some sort of nefarious conspiracy which does not exist except in your own head.

Corporate Sponsors...I tend to taste a little anti-capitalism in that statement?

Control is power. And in a world of increased demand and dwindling supplies (there's a great deal of evidence that the rate of oil production on Earth has entered a terminal decline), it makes sense that power-hungry, megalomaniacs would want to ensure that they have control over the most significant reserves on the planet.

This is another perfect example of a odd far left predisposition towards black helicopters and new world orders...what's next, did America fake the moon landing to pocket the cash.:D

Maybe global warming isn't necessarily as bad as some say, but if you spew millions of tons of chemicals and CO2 and crap into the air every day, it's got to create major changes in our atmosphere and weather patterns.

No it won't, at least not to according to a vast amount of people who don't mate up with the matchless junk science thats out there now. I already pointed out in a few paragraphs that it has been hotter in the past before, a lot more data can be thrown down that road, only the doom and gloom hippies have made enviormentalism a strict religon, so it does not really matter.

If you drank pool water every day wouldn't that affect your digestive system?

That makes about as much of a connection as saying Tera Reid is a good actress.

neilhytholt

04-12-2007, 11:41 PM

This is the Kung Fu Magazine forum. You actually have the gall to put down Asians that much on here?!?!? Maybe Asian people just don't like you. They can sense that you're prejudice against them. Didn't you say you were part Native American? What if I said all the Indians were a bunch of ooga boogas who needed to get out the way for white expansion because they were too stupid to make any technological advancements for hundreds of years? You've got to be kidding?!?!

Native Americans do seem have an inferiority complex. Maybe something about dealing with lots of diseases and then getting your lifestyle systematically destroyed as the govt. broke treaty after treaty after treaty has something to do with that.

As for the Asians sorry, but that's what I've run into. Something about a lack of an ethics system. If you look at a lot of the world, they're raised Christian or some religion, but most Chinese under the PRC weren't raised under any sort of ethics system except Communism is good.

Heck, I had conversations about it with my last sifu. He's just used to their system. A lot of Chinese teachers even brag about how much money they're scamming from the guai lo.

I had no idea about the Desi H1Bs and lying on the resume thing until I had to work with them. Can't really blame them -- they just want money and a better life, but it doesn't mean I have to vote them into the country.

Now I'm not saying that the institutions of the Europeans were any better, just that on a personal level they didn't seem to screw over their fellows as much. The rich have always screwed people over.

So, in other words -- I don't hate these people. They're just trying to make a better life for themselves. Can't really blame them. But it doesn't mean they're doing it ethically. It doesn't mean I want to vote them into my country so they can make it more crowded.

If you don't like my opinion, then whatever ...

As for raising it on a forum, where else to raise it? I'm telling them straight up that scamming people is wrong.

Siu Lum Fighter

04-13-2007, 12:16 AM

originally posted by neilhytholt
I agree with this, but I'd rather let in Mexicans than Chinese, Indians or Muslims.
Speaking of drivers, when I was living down in LA for about 2 and a half years there seemed to be a constant stream of freeway shootings going on most of the time I was there. It was always for some petty reason, like someone looking at the shooter wrong or something. And it was almost always some crazy f*cking Mexican gangster with a shaved head. I'd rather let in a bunch of slow driving Chinese people than a bunch of violent Mexican, gangbanging, Soreno heathens to be quite honest. And I really have nothing against Mexicans, I'm just trying to make a point.
Black Jack:
Still, I ask you, how are you going to tell me that scientists who rely on funding from oil companies (the main targets of global warming critics and the people who stand to lose the most) aren't going to say the whole thing is bunk?

originally posted by Black Jack II
This is another perfect example of a odd far left predisposition towards black helicopters and new world orders...what's next, did America fake the moon landing to pocket the cash
I'm talking about oil companies getting f*cking rich off the second largest oil reserve in the world. I'm also talking about the obvious ties between the Administration and the big oil companies. There's a Chevron oil tanker named after Condoleeza Rice for Christ's sake!! How is that a wild, black helicopter, faked moon landing conspiracy? People in the honey business go to where the bees are, people in the seafood business go to where the fish are, people in the mineral water business go to where the high mountain springs are, and people in the oil business go to where all the friggin' oil is. Duuuh!

neilhytholt

04-13-2007, 12:48 AM

Speaking of drivers, when I was living down in LA for about 2 and a half years there seemed to be a constant stream of freeway shootings going on most of the time I was there. It was always for some petty reason, like someone looking at the shooter wrong or something. And it was almost always some crazy f*cking Mexican gangster with a shaved head. I'd rather let in a bunch of slow driving Chinese people than a bunch of violent Mexican, gangbanging, Soreno heathens to be quite honest. And I really have nothing against Mexicans, I'm just trying to make a point.

That's L.A., though. L.A. is like a hellhole.

Yeah, though, Mexican drivers are terrible in San Diego. Talk about not following traffic laws, running stop signs, not signaling, cutting people off, speeding up and then slowing down .... what a mess.

But yeah, we should definitely kick some people out. I think I'll expand my list a bit.

a) Bush and all his cronies.
b) Gangs. Definitely gotta get rid of those.
c) Morbidly obese people. Some time spent in a third world country without enough to eat will probably save their lives, literally.
d) Those T.V. evangelist people. Freedom of speech shouldn't apply to their B.S.

neilhytholt

04-13-2007, 12:56 AM

Oh, BTW, those of you who didn't realize the Chinese and Indian posts were an attempt to evoke a reaction out of Unkokusai, sorry for the intrusion.

I don't really think we should kick everybody out. Although having the entire continent to myself wouldn't be something I would complain about.

TaiChiBob

04-13-2007, 05:06 AM

Greetings..

Wouldn't it be interesting to have discussions based on merit rather than partisan accusations.. forget scientists, use simple common sense.. somebody with HIV pees in your pool, don't worry.. it's just a little bit..

As for immigration, whenever the US can supply the labor necessary to fulfill its demands, THEN we can begin to examine the immigration issue.. illegal immigration is a serious issue, but needs rational consideration.. a comprehensive reform of immigration policy is essential.. a guest worker program is essential, documented and monitored.. immigrants without documentation have already broken the "law of the land".. a simple and effective documentation program would make it easy to work in US, such documentation would include work history.. anyone not working for more than 30 days, goes back to their native land..

Nationalism is poison.. pride is a spiritual defect.. judge people by who they are, not their color, ethnicity, religion, or adherance to "your" values..

US citizens have been incredibly fortunate.. simply by being born at the right time and in the right place.. it is incredibly insensitive to put down those less fortunate..

I hear the arguement about immigrants coming to the US for a better life, but.. in more cases than is reasonable, they actually bring the poverty and crime they sought to escape with them..

Gangs? i cannot understand why they are tolerated.. why the citizens don't demand that the legal system/gov't end it. i actually witnessed an FBI team walk away from a stake-out saying it was "too dangerous".. i worked there daily..

Consider the Don Imus situation.. what he said was far less than is heard daily on most Rap stations.. he should have been fired, AND.. the language and sentiments he conveyed should not be tolerated in any form.. isn't it interesting how it's acceptable in some forms and not in others? The US has lost its core values.

Of the US core values, fairness was its most admired.. gone....

Caution born of experience is a well-reasoned person's best defense.. prejudice, actions based on the expectation that people of similar appearance will behave similarly, is a dangerous concept.. it negates the individual's opportunity to be fairly evaluated..

Good luck, and be well...

unkokusai

04-13-2007, 06:31 AM

Oh, BTW, those of you who didn't realize the Chinese and Indian posts were an attempt to evoke a reaction out of Unkokusai, sorry for the intrusion.

That's a lie. Sobered up this morning and had a change of heart? Poor attempt at covering.

MasterKiller

04-13-2007, 07:03 AM

Control is power. And in a world of increased demand and dwindling supplies (there's a great deal of evidence that the rate of oil production on Earth has entered a terminal decline), it makes sense that power-hungry, megalomaniacs would want to ensure that they have control over the most significant reserves on the planet.

I would just like to point out that the most 'significant reserves' lie off the coast of the U.S. in the form of coalbed methane. We have direct access to and complete ownership of what will amount to more oil than is currently in the middle east reserves...

Corporate Sponsors...I tend to taste a little anti-capitalism in that statement?

C'mon, now. Don't be so obtuse. Corporations spend tons of money to affect policy in favor of their bottom line, regardless of their harm to the general populace. The Jungle...anyone? Big tobacco?

FuXnDajenariht

04-13-2007, 12:26 PM

So American has never done anything to be proud of? There's still room on the raft, ya ****.

yea the revolutionary war was all fine and well.

but what about lately? what have we done lately to make our ancestors proud about honestly? you have been watching the news right?

a raft huh? thats cute. maybe i'll actually find sum healthcare elsewhere.... :p

unkokusai

04-13-2007, 12:32 PM

a raft huh? thats cute. maybe i'll actually find sum healthcare elsewhere.... :p

Go for it. You won't be missed for a second.

LeeCasebolt

04-13-2007, 12:37 PM

So you want to deport most drivers over the age of 60 and every yuppie ******* 'multi-tasking' and not paying attention to the road?

Come to think of it, that's probably the best idea to come out of this thread.

Black Jack II

04-13-2007, 12:44 PM

but what about lately?

LOL.....American technology and its money has contributed so much to the standard of living across the globe its a collection of books within itself.

FuXnDajenariht

04-13-2007, 12:50 PM

Go for it. You won't be missed for a second.

nah. i would be remiss to leave people like you alone to flush whats left of our countries integrity down the toilet. i think ill stay and baby sit you neo-con prcks. we need all the reasonable people we can get, to make sure you dont do anything stupid-er.

PangQuan

04-13-2007, 12:53 PM

I'm just saying ... you talk about Democracy, and patriotism, that's just my opinion.

Patriotism is supporting your country, right? Not letting in anybody you think is destroying your country or will harm people.

People complain about Mexicans but Mexicans I've met have been some of the nicest people on the planet. I've never once met a Mexican that tried to screw me over.

ive had white people try and screw me over way more than any other "color" of people.

AND they were born here. @ssholes come in all shapes colors and sizes from any place on the planet.

FuXnDajenariht

04-13-2007, 12:53 PM

LOL.....American technology and its money has contributed so much to the standard of living across the globe its collection of books within itself.

oh i see. so your one of those who believes the world would cease to spin on its axis without the existence of America. :rolleyes:

i think a couple billion people would challenge you on your statement about their so called "standards of living", or rather lack thereof.

Black Jack II

04-13-2007, 01:38 PM

Your not comprehending anything now but your own selective choices. Here is what you asked.

what have we done lately to make our ancestors proud about honestly? you have been watching the news right?

Then you go and state this nonsense when someone gives you the truth to that question.

oh i see. so your one of those who believes the world would cease to spin on its axis without the existence of America.

The real downhome facts are yes, even if it ****es on your weeds the world at large owes America and its amazing success a great deal of thanks. From the telegraph which lead to a new era in communication, to the phonograh and incandescent light bulb by Thomas Edison, all the way to the first gas powered automobile, the first air conditioning technology, the first flight on the Kitty Hawk, the first rocket ship, the first trans-atlantic flight, first televison, the first digital computer.......the list is LONG.

Let's not even add the MASSIVE amounts of cash we hand out all over the world to countries in need and the jobs...not just jobs but the freakin industries we create.

Please fool.....get on that raft.:rolleyes:

FuXnDajenariht

04-13-2007, 01:56 PM

and what makes you think these things wouldn't of been created elsewhere in the world at some point? alot of these scientists were of immigrant stock. they could of just as easily decided to stay in their own home countries. we just had the will, capital and opportunity at that time. you ever heard the saying theres nothing new under the sun?

the Chinese created a primitive lightbulb thousands of years ago. the first computer program was also said to be based on another Chinese invention called the I-Ching. there were other attempts at flight around the world before and during the Kitty hawk flight. we were just lucky enough to be the first. hell.... Leonardo Da Vinci dreamt up the helicopter 800 years ago. if you think we have a monopoly on good ideas your deluded. we just happen to attract the best and brightest from around the world. you would do well to remember that. any invention you mention, you could probably find sum direct or indirect collaboration with the internation community.

it also could be argued that the international standard of living would be higher without America meddling in foreign countries. how well does all the cash we throw around actually help the indigenous people? or is it more like we're just manipulated their resources and cutting them out of the profit.

golden arhat

04-13-2007, 01:58 PM

The real downhome facts are yes, even if it ****es on your weeds the world at large owes America and its amazing success a great deal of thanks. From the telegraph which lead to a new era in communication, to the phonograh and incandescent light bulb by Thomas Edison, all the way to the first gas powered automobile, the first air conditioning technology, the first flight on the Kitty Hawk, the first rocket ship, the first trans-atlantic flight, first televison, the first digital computer.......the list is LONG.

Let's not even add the MASSIVE amounts of cash we hand out all over the world to countries in need and the jobs...not just jobs but the freakin industries we create.

Please fool.....get on that raft.:rolleyes:

the rocket was pioneered by the nazis
that does not make them great

the first telephone was created by a scot (or a cuban)
u ever been to glasgow? its one of the worst places on the history of the earth

a countries creations don't make it great

and what about all of the creations that have done serious harm to the world
all american inventions

nuclear weapons etc

not to mention that alot of these industries you create
exploit people in other countries

sure america has done its good but it has done its evil also

unkokusai

04-13-2007, 02:04 PM

nah. i would be remiss to leave people like you alone.

No you wouldn't. Get lost, you don't like the country and you're not wanted. Shoo! Go sip wine in Paris and spit at the tourists or something you'll really enjoy.

Or are you just a giant hypocrite?

Yeah, I thought so.

unkokusai

04-13-2007, 02:08 PM

we just happen to attract the best and brightest from around the world. .

Yes we do, because they see what self-loathing, empty-headed, spoiled liberals like you can't. Now get the $%^* out and make space for more of the best and brightest (it ain't you).

PangQuan

04-13-2007, 02:08 PM

regardless of anything else anyone thinks.

you have to admit, americans got it good....

its so easy to live in america i dont even have to try and i make a good living. I got the schedule i want, the activities i desire, the goods i crave and all at minimal effort.

something to be said about a place where you can literally fall down and get rich.

D-FENS

04-13-2007, 02:09 PM

Obviously you don't live around here. I've been actually taking a sampling of the people doing bizarre and dangerous stuff on the road, and taking into account their demographics.

9 times out of 10 it's a woman.
8 times out of 10 they're Asian.
7 times out of 10 they're on a cell phone.

About a year ago, oncoming traffic was stopped in the opposite direction. I was driving and this car didn't notice somehow the traffic was stopped. It careened into my lane and pulled back into the other lane at the last second.

It hit the car next to mine at the exact second I was passing by in the opposite lane. It was the closest I've ever been to a head-on. Totally rear-ended it.

Driver: woman, asian and on her cell phone. Never hit the brakes at all. Impacted at least 45 mph into the back of the other car. It was a huge mess.

...gotta confirm this as well. I was T-boned by an Asian girl on her cell phone. Didn't even see me coming, just shot right out like a loose turd. And if you want to see Chinese corruption in big business? Look no further than the way they treat their miners on the African continent. Absolutely dispicable.

golden arhat

04-13-2007, 02:12 PM

...gotta confirm this as well. I was T-boned by an Asian girl on her cell phone. Didn't even see me coming, just shot right out like a loose turd. And if you want to see Chinese corruption in big business? Look no further than the way they treat their miners on the African continent. Absolutely dispicable.

i once saw a woman on the road doing here eye thingy liner

eye pencil +car in front = eye kebab

FuXnDajenariht

04-13-2007, 02:14 PM

No you wouldn't. Get lost, you don't like the country and you're not wanted. Shoo! Go sip wine in Paris and spit at the tourists or something you'll really enjoy.

Or are you just a giant hypocrite?

Yeah, I thought so.

i have more of right to this country than most. my great grand parents helped to build it just as much as yours did. with blood and sweat at the end of a whip.

a true patriotic is sumone dissatisfied with the mediocrity infecting every part of our society and government. while people like you who call themselves patriots will settle for any and everything, for unchecked corruption and greed and plain idiocy passing itself off as democracry. ignorance is bliss should be the new mantra printed on our money.

****ing lemmings. :rolleyes:

so no i think i'll stay.

unkokusai

04-13-2007, 02:15 PM

...gotta confirm this as well. I was T-boned by an Asian girl on her cell phone. Didn't even see me coming, just shot right out like a loose turd..

Personal anecdotes are proof of nothing. This is basic stuff.

unkokusai

04-13-2007, 02:18 PM

i have more of right to this country than most. .

I don't want to hear it. You very obviously have nothing but disdain for the country, so go somewhere you will be more satisfied. Again, no one will miss you.

D-FENS

04-13-2007, 02:19 PM

i once saw a woman on the road doing here eye thingy liner

eye pencil +car in front = eye kebab

Hell, that ain't nothing... I once saw a guy rip a bong hit in the driver's seat before getting on the freeway! And I'm not talking about one of those plastic ones, I mean the guy actually had a glass bong in his lap. Didn't even try to duck, or hide behind the visor or anything! :eek:

Strange times we live in....

unkokusai

04-13-2007, 02:20 PM

a true patriotic is sumone dissatisfied with the mediocrity infecting every part of our society and government.

So you can't be patriotic unless you are convinced that your country is evil and corrupt? That's your definition? You really should run your posts through a 'dumb-check' before posting.

unkokusai

04-13-2007, 02:21 PM

Hell, that ain't nothing... I once saw a guy rip a bong hit in the driver's seat before getting on the freeway! And I'm not talking about one of those plastic ones, I mean the guy actually had a glass bong in his lap. Didn't even try to duck, or hide behind the visor or anything! :eek:

Strange times we live in....

Well, he was getting on the highway, so........

PangQuan

04-13-2007, 02:22 PM

golden arhat

04-13-2007, 02:23 PM

I don't want to hear it. You very obviously have nothing but disdain for the country, so go somewhere you will be more satisfied. Again, no one will miss you.

so let me get this straight
u want people who dont share your views expelled ?

how very umm american of you :rolleyes:

however
he is welcome here in the U.K
where active political debate is still allowed (for now)

FuXnDajenariht

04-13-2007, 02:26 PM

im allowed to be dissastified with my own country dip****. the revolutionary war wouldn't of occured if otherwise. thats how things changed for the better. im personally glad sumone, sumwhere had disdain for this country in the years leading up to the civil year. instead of bowing to the status quo. believing that it was the way it was and nothing could be done. i dont know if you could appreciate that though.

its in the governments best interest for people to believe that they should tow the line and never expect more. god forbid you try to do sumthin about your dissatisfaction. put the ****ing flag down for one second and read your history. see how fast dissenters got a boot in the neck. but dissenters are the cause of alot of the positive changes you seem so awfully proud of. when people begin thinking theres no room for improvement thats the beginning of the end.

unkokusai

04-13-2007, 02:26 PM

so no i think i'll stay.

So let's see, so far we can assume that if you had a job you hated you wouldn't leave that job and find one you are more satisfied with, but would rather sit around *****ing all day and making the company less productive. You wouldn't help improve the company because you hate it, but you wouldn't have the courage of your convictions enough to leave.

Further, we can assume that according to your worldview you cannot love your family unless you are convinced that they are all a bunch of *******s. Again, you wouldn't leave them or try to help them in a positive way, you would just sit around telling them what *******s they all are and flinging your feces at them.

You're quite a guy, all right.....:rolleyes:

FuXnDajenariht

04-13-2007, 02:28 PM

so let me get this straight
u want people who dont share your views expelled ?

how very umm american of you :rolleyes:

however
he is welcome here in the U.K
where active political debate is still allowed (for now)

lol thanks mate. but im not gonna run from the problem like they so want me to. :rolleyes: nice try though.

liberal is equivalent to coward in their eyes.

unkokusai

04-13-2007, 02:29 PM

so let me get this straight
u want people who dont share your views expelled?

Nope. I just figure people who hate any country would be happier somewhere else, and their leaving would make the place they hated more productive.

You want him? Take him. I know you Euro-types are big on self-loathing, so he should fit right in.

FuXnDajenariht

04-13-2007, 02:30 PM

FuXnDajenariht

04-13-2007, 02:35 PM

Nope. I just figure people who hate any country would be happier somewhere else, and their leaving would make the place they hated more productive.

You want him? Take him. I know you Euro-types are big on self-loathing, so he should fit right in.

never once have you heard me say i hate my country. but i stand by what i say.
infact i love it so much that i want to see it improved beyond whats currently on display to the rest of the world. the way we're carrying on is embarassing and frankly pathetic. nuthin to be proud of.

unkokusai

04-13-2007, 02:36 PM

omg i so wanna rip my eyes with a rusty spoon after readin this........

There's something else you may feel free to do. So many opportunities for satisfaction!

FuXnDajenariht

04-13-2007, 02:38 PM

how bout we make a deal. ill leave the country when you remove yourself from the Gene Pool and send proof that you did so. now i dont think you'd get enough height from the roof of your trailer, but i hear drowning is pretty pleasant.

unkokusai

04-13-2007, 02:42 PM

never once have you heard me say i hate my country. .

You said that we have done nothing to be proud of and that you are in fact ashamed to be an American. Doesn't sound like love to me. Are you going to try and back-peddle now because it has become obvious even to you that getting the **** out is the only logical choice that accords with your words and attitude?

FuXnDajenariht

04-13-2007, 02:44 PM

i think i wasted alot of replies so to summarize.

you first....

unkokusai

04-13-2007, 02:44 PM

how bout we make a deal. ill leave the country .

Good, go. That's the only deal that makes sense. I promise you that I will also not live in any country I hate, am ashamed of, or that I can find nothing to be proud of.

FuXnDajenariht

04-13-2007, 02:48 PM

so you wont remove yourself from the gene pool? no deal? fine. ill stay then. ;)

daayuumn and i thought u were committed to me going....

golden arhat

04-13-2007, 02:49 PM

You said that we have done nothing to be proud of and that you are in fact ashamed to be an American. Doesn't sound like love to me. Are you going to try and back-peddle now because it has become obvious even to you that getting the **** out is the only logical choice that accords with your words and attitude?

thats all taken out of context

if the government does something terribly bad at that point in time u feel ashamed to be american

in regards to a certain situation
america has nothing to be proud of

simple

but then so are you

unkokusai

04-13-2007, 02:52 PM

Already defending his new countryman. I like to see it. Maybe he really will make a good...um...that is...what the hell are you again?

neilhytholt

04-13-2007, 02:56 PM

ive been hit on crosswalks 3 times in my life. well i actually dodged them all, but still. if i was slow and not paying attention i would have been hit

each time was a middle aged white woman.....

sooooo whats that say?

i personally dont think it says anything, other than the fact that im lucky i dont trust ANYONE behind the wheel of a car and i pay attention to what im doing.

Actually, I asked the guys from Asian countries at work why the women drive so badly. They said it's two factors:

a) They never drove a car in their life before they got here. Most of them around here are wives of H1Bs or H1Bs themselves.
b) They have problems making decisions on their own because they are so used to making decisions as a family.

Don't know if that's true or not, but that's what they said.

But yeah, the time I almost got nailed in the crosswalk by the woman who was completely turned around messing with her baby, it was a middle aged white woman. I checked both ways, went, she was stopped at the intersection coming out of a grocery store.

She looked back at the baby, and started her move while I was in the crosswalk. She wasn't even looking at the traffic or me at all and pulled out. Never came across anything like that before.

FuXnDajenariht

04-13-2007, 02:57 PM

outsmarted by a 16 year old. no wonder your so bitter...

unkokusai

04-13-2007, 03:02 PM

outsmarted by a 16 year old. no wonder your so bitter...

"you're"

And what the hell are you on about now?

golden arhat

04-13-2007, 03:02 PM

So let's see, so far we can assume that if you had a job you hated you wouldn't leave that job and find one you are more satisfied with, but would rather sit around *****ing all day and making the company less productive. You wouldn't help improve the company because you hate it, but you wouldn't have the courage of your convictions enough to leave.

Further, we can assume that according to your worldview you cannot love your family unless you are convinced that they are all a bunch of *******s. Again, you wouldn't leave them or try to help them in a positive way, you would just sit around telling them what *******s they all are and flinging your feces at them.

You're quite a guy, all right.....

.

ok where to start

to compare a country to a job is idiotic

whatever is wrong with a job
pales in comparison with the problems of the u.s government

and considering he is of no importance with in the bush administration he cant exactly change things like that can he ?

so really all he can do is try and get the people who can to do something

and how does he do that ?

BY VOICING HIS OPINIONS

suddenly this is hating your country ?

hell in a country like america i'd consider that a service

fascist

You want him? Take him. I know you Euro-types are big on self-loathing, so he should fit right in.

another grand display of ur thorough understanding of the world

BRAVO *claps*