Exchanging Info on Fa kuen Form

[byond1]

Hi Guys,

Im researching a form called "Fa Kuen" It has been passed down along side several Wing Chun branchs. It may actually be several differant forms, and im wondering, as its not traditional Wing Chun Kuen, if it turns up in any other Southern Arts. I seem to remember hearing of a Fa Kuen in Fut Gar, but my source could have been faulted.

Fa Kuen translates usually as "Flower Fist" - (Interesting in WCK we have a slogan about " No flower fist methods or Brocade Legs") "Fa" has also been translated or used to mean "Variation" as in the form teachs seamless flow from technique to technique. All versions i have researched tend to have Footwork in the 8 directions. IT tends to teach Spiraling Jing, using a Bow and Arrow horse, and has a legend attached that Chi Shim Created this form using Tai Chi principels, to make its power generation Arch smaller than traditional Souther Siu Lum. Some Traditions state Ng Mui created the form as an application set for Siu Lien Tao level methods. There is other meaning to "Fa" which im not at liberty to discuss.

Fa Kuen can be found traditionaly in the wonderfull Cho Family Wing Chun of Poon Yu Village. I cant say all Cho Gar has it. But i know the Singapore branchs have it. The branchs i have encountered tend to focus on the "Fa" meaning "Variable" or Variation. And teachs the flow from Technique to technique and tends to be said to be SLT application based.

Chu Chong Man or the Iron fist of Wing Chun passed on a Fa Kuen form. It was learned from the Wong Family, who had won several outstanding titles for their families skill. It was said CHi Chim taught the elder Wong, as his personal methods were not suited for an older man. The Grandson of the Wong family, Wong Git Sing, taught Fa Kuen to Chu CHong Man. THis particular Fa Kuen form is actually 3 forms in one. Set 1. Ping Yao Kuen Set.2 Fut Kuen set.3 Mui Fah Bot Gwa. I have heard that set 1 has a CLF flavor.
I have seen parts of this Fa Kuen and can only say im not sure which set it was, but had a very Tai Chi feel with heavy use of Bow and Arrow horse, with bridge work that appear Wing Chun Like, but had a completly differant method of power generation. And actualy had a movement that looked like a Single Whip.

Incidently Chu CHong Man taught in H.K in the 50s running a florest and Dit Da Clinic. He was related to Yip Man, and they actually had alot of interactions. He was one of the masters that met at Dai Duk Lan to exchange and unite the 3 families Lo , Tang, and Dong (Chu CHong man carried on Dong Family tradition)

Also New Martial Hero mentioned a "Fujian Weng Chun" hailing form the Weng Chun Hall, where Hu Hui Gan brought out a system that included the 3 forms listed above. IE Ping Yao Kuen, Fut Jeung and Mui Fah Bot. BUt also included Luk Dim Boon Gwun, Lien Wan Kau Da, Bot Sik Dan Da ect.

Fa Kuen also turns up in modern Chan Wah Shun family. Which there version has 9 sections, but i havnt seen the material myself and so cant comment. This material was integrated into Chan Family ~After~ Chan Wah Shuns son died (Chan Yiu Men) - As non of Chan Yiu Mens students, such as Pan Nam or Jiu Chow, had any material other than Wing Chun. Its possible Chans Yius wife, a known Kung Fu master integrated other material or their children did.



So im curious if Chu Chong mans Fa Kuen is related to Cho Gar Fa Kuen, or if only the names of the sets are the same, and the similarities end there. And if anyone has encountered this form anywhere else.

Any exchange of info would be graciously appreciated.

Brian

[Weito]

Brian,

We have Fa Kuen in our curriculum, actually three forms. Interesting might be too that we also practice a Siu lam Wing Chun - that's what my late grandmaster told us - that I have never seen before. Cheung Duen /Kiu Kuen - or long- short bridge. fist - is the most characteristical one. Oh yes, to complete the story, Lai Ng Sam was born and partly raised in Futshan.

In the past I did my best to find out more specific informaation about Flower Boxing, and failed. I thought that especially in Malaysia there were schools teaching (at least) one Fa Kuen form. I am familiar with the WKK article too, but I could not recognize the sequences as presented with these articles.

Ng San Kuen - the third Fa Kuen form - is the most famous/ significant one. Length about 200+ movements. Broad variety of skill has been seen during play. Five animals, but also Sword fingers and Duen Da skills. So its relation with Southern Siu lam is rather clear to me.

Warmest regards,

Evert.

[DaveTart]

There is a "flower fist" form in UK Lau Gar. A not too brilliant example can be found here:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/j.kelly627/

The video you want is the top one. Does that look like anything you know?

[Fu-Pau]

Most southern styles have a form called Fa Kuen (or more correctly Moi Fa Kuen), which translates as Plum Flower Fist. Generally the form is named thus because the pattern of the foot work roughly follows the five directions that the petals of a plum flower form. The plum flower of course also symbolises China.

Chow Gar (Jow Ga), Hung Ga, CLF, Hak Fu Mun etc all have forms named Fa Kuen or Moi Fa Kuen. Not necessarily the same form, just that their forms share a common name.

[Hendrik]

So im curious if Chu Chong mans Fa Kuen is related to Cho Gar Fa Kuen, or if only the names of the sets are the same, and the similarities end there. And if anyone has encountered this form anywhere else. -------




Totally different set.

[Fu-Pau]

PS:

For comparison purposes, here is a rendition of a segment of the Jow Ga (Chow Gar) Moi Fa Kuen:

www.jowtigers.com/movies/fakuen.wmv

With acknowldgements to Tailik

[byond1]

I appreciate everyones responces.

Weito - Interesting, that your Fa Kuen has 3 forms/sets within it. Based on What Hendrik has shared, Cho Family Fa Kuen isnt related to the Chu Chong Man Fa Kuen set. But perhaps your Version is related to Chu Chong Man. The names of the forms could have been modernized by Chu Chong Man. Im working on getting some material on Vid. If and when it becomes available, i will let everyone know.


Hendrik - Thanks for sharing and the clairification. Chu Chong Man admited in New Martial Hero that the Fa Kuen of Wong Git SIng was from a source other than Wing chun, but was related to Southern Fist. In modern times, his descendents are saying it is a Shaolin Wing Chun form tracing back directly to Chi Shim, and comes from the same source as LDBG, MYJ, and Jong Kuen.

David - Thanks for the vids. They wouldnt play at work, and i just got home i will be checkign them out in a few minutes and than repost my opinion.

Fu-Pau - Interesting. My studies are Mainly in H.K WCK, Mainland WCK, and 2 branchs of White Crane. Im also expanding a bit into some Emie. But i would say WCK has always used the 5 Petaled plum flower as a symbol of several things, including the footwork, all being found within the shape, as well as all palm striking methods found within the shape.

Yes, i have heard of Moi Fa Kuen. Some Malasian WCK , for example from Yip Kin has Siu Fa Kuen and Dai Fa Kuen, but i understand its not WCK at all. Its either a CLF or hung mix

Because the history of WCK was a bit vague, many groups imported non WCK material and attempted to connect WCK to it, proving an ~ older~ Origin or a more ~Shaolin~ origin.

My opinion is the only way Mainland WCK is related to Shaolin would be from one of its parent systems like Weng Chun County White Crane. And as ive mentioned other places, i dont have a clue where and what was used to create White Crane, but to my eye it doesnt move nor look like most shaolin i have seen. Even alot of Southern Arts are differant to Crane.
To me, I see alot of Hakka influence in the crane system. or perhaps my mind is playing tricks on me

Brian

[byond1]

David - Interesting system. Are those complete sets?? In ancestral Wing Chun we have small sets, that are Jing Patterns, with Concepts attached. And than the Principles of the system give a framework to apply the concepts and Jing within.

I tend to think its differant. But i havnt seen all 3 sets. The set i did see didnt have the style footwork, i saw showcased. But used more of a...sinking and shifting into differant positions. The Bow and arrow is the core horse. There is also a section that has single hand going out with a Tan (Palm Up hand- Dispercing Hand) Sau ~Looking~ Motion. Im thinking this form is cross polanated perhaps, as the mechanics are complelty differant to any WCK i have encountered. I have a photo sequence of several sections of 1 of the sets. And i saw the same set performed live.But in no means have all the details down.

Thanks for sharing

Brian

[DaveTart]

David - Interesting system. Are those complete sets?? In ancestral Wing Chun we have small sets, that are Jing Patterns, with Concepts attached. And than the Principles of the system give a framework to apply the concepts and Jing within.

If that is reference to me: Then yes, they are full set's of the Lau Gar system. The BKFA's website is here:
http://www.laugar-kungfu.com/

However, there is controversy about how geunine the Lineage he claims is.
I.e. They may not look like traditional sets because they might not be traditional/ancient sets.

[Hendrik]

Some Malasian WCK , for example from Yip Kin has Siu Fa Kuen and Dai Fa Kuen, but i understand its not WCK at all. Its either a CLF or hung mix------


Siu Fa and Dai Fa are different compare with CLF type. IMHO