A footnote on standing arm breaks

[Ben Gash]

I just found this video. It features an elbow dislocation (not for the squeemish) and an UNSUPPORTED radius and ulna break :eek: Both only involved the kind of forces that can be employed hand to hand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SJk9dyLtUw&mode=related&search=

[Knifefighter]

I just found this video. It features an elbow dislocation (not for the squeemish) and an UNSUPPORTED radius and ulna break :eek: Both only involved the kind of forces that can be employed hand to hand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SJk9dyLtUw&mode=related&search=

Neither of these is a demonstration of standing arm breaks.

The first guy falls onto the ground (which is usually where breaks occur) with his arm extended.

The second involves the elbow being supported by a platform going into the ground (the table), as well as the other hand pulling against this platform. Addtionally, neither person is standing.

The only thing these particular clips support is how important it is to have either direct or indirect ground forces acting upon the arm and how this usually doesn't happen from a standing position.

[rogue]

Oh well, at least now we know the standing arm bar is a myth. Next, why bullets don't really kill. :p

[Ben Gash]

I never said it showed standing arm breaks, did I :rolleyes:
My point is that neither one involves leverag against the ground, neither one involves a large amount of force, and in the second one the arm is completely unsupported, and the radius and ulna are broken simply by muscular force.

[Knifefighter]

I never said it showed standing arm breaks, did I.

No, you just made it the title of your post :rolleyes:



My point is that neither one involves leverag against the ground, neither one involves a large amount of force, and in the second one the arm is completely unsupported, and the radius and ulna are broken simply by muscular force.

The guy is riding a skateboard and then falls headfirst from a wall into the ground and extends the arm out, thereby smashing it into the ground. You think this does not involve leverage against the ground or having a large amount of force? Yeah, right.

As far as the second one, the arm wouldn't have broken if the opponent's arm was not leveraged against the table and both people were not pulling against the table.

LOL @ using these as arguments for the validity of standing arm breaks.

[Ben Gash]

Um, no, by definition there is no leverage, it's an impact injury. His arm wants to travel backwards, but can't because of the position of it relative to his body. This is the basic premise of the standing arm break :rolleyes: It also does not involve large amounts of force. The skateboard isn't going that fast, and it's a small fall. If he'd tucked and landed in a foetal position he'd probably have just been a bit winded, and critically it is what I reffered to in my original post, involving forces that can be employed in hand to hand.
I really don't get you knifefighter, you come across as a reasonably educated guy, and then you are so obtuse that it seems inconceivable that you're not doing it just to wind people up. You tell people to put up or shut up, and then post a video of you looking pretty poor, and a MASSIVELY edited highlights reel showing 5 second snatches of you looking OK, and then get all antsy when people dare to criticise, and then proceed to ignore any evidence or opinion that does not correspond with what you seem to believe.

[Knifefighter]

Um, no, by definition there is no leverage, it's an impact injury. His arm wants to travel backwards, but can't because of the position of it relative to his body. This is the basic premise of the standing arm break :rolleyes: It also does not involve large amounts of force. The skateboard isn't going that fast, and it's a small fall. If he'd tucked and landed in a foetal position he'd probably have just been a bit winded, and critically it is what I reffered to in my original post, involving forces that can be employed in hand to hand.
I really don't get you knifefighter, you come across as a reasonably educated guy, and then you are so obtuse that it seems inconceivable that you're not doing it just to wind people up. You tell people to put up or shut up, and then post a video of you looking pretty poor, and a MASSIVELY edited highlights reel showing 5 second snatches of you looking OK, and then get all antsy when people dare to criticise, and then proceed to ignore any evidence or opinion that does not correspond with what you seem to believe.


And your full contact video is where? Oh, that's right... you've never done that type of thing.... Your experience consists of dancing around like a bug....bahahahawhwhwhwaahaha.


As far as the standing breaks, if you actually did full contact, you would know they happen very, very rarely, and almost never on purpose. You would also know that falling with the arm outstretched like that causes breaks quite often... and that says nothing to the inefficency of trying to do a standing break.

[Black Jack II]

Standing elbow breaks or jams are possible but I just don't think there viable as high percentage techniques in sparring but maybe more useable in the context of situational self defense.

Most breaks seem to occur when the opponent is pinned down so more force and leverage can be used, such as grappling and even arm wrestling or high impact falls such as skate boarding and other sports.

Being able to walk in and fracture the humorus at whim seems to be a bit of a myth unless you are a really strong guy and are able to nail the right spot. Getting a torn bursa seems to be more common, the good old fashioned tennis elbow injury, which is nasty to the joint in itself.

[Ben Gash]

"if you really did full contact" what, you mean apart from the full contact I've done? You really are an idiot :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

"if you really did full contact" what, you mean apart from the full contact I've done? You really are an idiot :rolleyes:


I guess if you consider posing and dancing around in your silk PJ's to be fighting....

[Ben Gash]

And what, if anything, does that have to do with me doing full contact? See, if you don't address the points, and bring up irrelevencies an start mudslinging, then people just think you're a troll. See the same website gives details for my San Shou class, hopefully I'll get some photos that meet with your approval :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

And what, if anything, does that have to do with me doing full contact? See, if you don't address the points, and bring up irrelevencies an start mudslinging, then people just think you're a troll.

People who say they do full contact fighting, but only post pictures or clips of forms dancing usually don't do full contact fighting.



See the same website gives details for my San Shou class, hopefully I'll get some photos that meet with your approval.

Maybe you can put up some clips of your "full contact" fighting. While you are at it, show some standing arm breaks too.

[Ben Gash]

Whatever you want Dale, I'm going to break someone's arm just to satisfy your curiosity.
See, some of us aren't as vain as you, and don't feel the need to compulsively videotape ourselves all the time. I personally don't like watching myself much, as I'm my own worst critic, so consequently I don't have much footage of myself.

[Fu-Pow]

If you can do a standing arm lock then you can do a standing arm break. The key is to control the wrist and the elbow. It's not easy to pull of but what's the big deal?

FP

[Ben Gash]

The deal is that KF can't do it (probably because there's usually a major height difference) so therefore it must be impossible, and everyone here who says that they've done it in a real fight is lying. This view is of course validated by the fact that noone participating in a sporting contest deliberately causes a career threatening injury to their opponent :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

The deal is that KF can't do it (probably because there's usually a major height difference) so therefore it must be impossible, and everyone here who says that they've done it in a real fight is lying. This view is of course validated by the fact that noone participating in a sporting contest deliberately causes a career threatening injury to their opponent :rolleyes:

Ah... the words of a pretend, fantasy fighter. The fact is, the opponent is trying as hard as he can to break your arm... what stops him is you tap.

No tap = arm broken.

Funny how no one ever has to tap while standing, but have to do this regularly on the ground. I guess competitors wait to apply full force until they hit the ground. :rolleyes:

BTW, I've had my arm broken during a match... so much for opponents worried about breaking your arm...

[rogue]

Old fragile bones? Careful Dale, guys our age have to be worried about breaking a hip if we fall off the toilet.:p

[Ben Gash]

If you're going to break/dislocate the arm you need to exert a short burst of energy. This isn't really conducive to tapping.
I didn't say arms didn't get broken, I'm saying most right minded people don't try to deliberately break the arm.People try for submissions and get over-excited, or misjudge their angles, or people think they can hang on and discover quite drastically that they can't.

[Black Jack II]

Not all standing arm bars are the same either.

By taking a look at the first picture one can see how hard that specific technique would be to apply under pressure. Where the second image is a much more compound gross motor style move.

http://www.leefamilystyle.com/images/fs_page_image.01.JPG

http://www.oishi-judo.com/ARM-LOCK.jpg

[Ben Gash]

The first one isn't an arm bar, it's an elbow drop throw.
The second one is a variation on what is my standard controlling hold. You could break the arm from there if you wedged your body into their armpit to control the shoulder, pull out on the wrist and hammerfist down onto the elbow with the left, but it's tricky and legally iffy (I'd rather use the hold to drive them down and work on the shoulder. Alternatively you could pull them back into you, left hand on the shoulder, and force your body through their elbow.
The thing with both of those apps though is that in terms of legality and practicality they're pretty much only for multiple attacker scenarios. With a single opponent, KF is right, there are more reliable places to go from that position (if he was only less confrontational about things he might find there's a lot more common ground out there).

[rogue]

I'll admit, once again, that I successfully executed a standing elbow dislocation in a street fight. It was fast, it was easy and it made me sick.

But I also believe that people can get their necks broken and other nonsense such as coelacanths still exist.

[Knifefighter]

http://www.leefamilystyle.com/images/fs_page_image.01.JPG

http://www.oishi-judo.com/ARM-LOCK.jpg

LOL @ breaking someone's arm with either of those moves.

[Black Jack II]

The first pic Ben clearly stated it is a armbar, the site I pulled it from mentioned it in the caption, in silat I have seen hyperextensions of the same nature.

The second pic just represents a different take, that one often performed off a grab, and going deep.

This one is what some may consider a classical standing armbar but as we all know there are many different ways to do the technique.

http://www.burrese.com/images/arm_bar_thad.jpg


The thing with both of those apps though is that in terms of legality and practicality they're pretty much only for multiple attacker scenarios.

As for this....your kidding right....your not really suggesting they fall into the deadly technique category are you?

Rogue,

Hey I believe in the armbar to, I totally think it has its place in teaching, if not just to understand the mechanics of how the arm works incase you find yourself in that position.

[Ben Gash]

No, I'm saying that legally breaking their arm from a restraining hold such as that is in the blacker end of grey, and that in a one on one situation you would be better off taking them to the ground from there.

[Fu-Pow]

I think the term "break" is a misnomer. We're really talking about dislocations?:eek:

[rogue]

I don't think any of the pictures shown would easily dislocate the elbow. It's been a very, very long time but I do remember pulling his wrist back with my right while I slammed my left into his elbow. I don't remember me or him bending over.

[Black Jack II]

but I do remember pulling his wrist back with my right while I slammed my left into his elbow.

Most of the non-traditional combative instructors who I have met advocate wrenching something along that measure. Grab and slam the forearm or cupped hand into the elbow joint, either across, down or from up underneath.

[Fu-Pow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUDNr8v7eRI&mode=related&search=

Here's some nice joint manipulation. Straight out of Chen Taiji's Six Sealing Four Closing technique. I think you could easily create a dislocation if a short burst of force was used.

FP

BTW, check out the rest of this guy's clips on youtube. He shows the "unsoft" side of Taiji Quan.

[rogue]

Fu-Pow, I don't think that move would dislocate the elbow no matter how hard you used it. Same for the ones BJ posted. If you did them hard enough the shoulder might give before the elbow at best. Also the Uke is still able to move their body away from the dislocation even if it means falling

I use variations of the technique Fu-Pow linked all of the time, and one day I had someone ask me about that "elbow break" that I showed. I didn't remember showing any elbow break and found out the confusion was in the terminology I used. When I bent the elbow ala fu-pow's video I used the phrase "break the elbow" when I meant collapse the elbow, but people thought I was breaking that joint. I've noticed most people teaching that type of technique also say break the elbow and use the same term when they mean hyper-extend, lock or dislocate the joint. I've since cleaned up my terms when showing techniques. So when we say elbow break do we really mean that?

[Black Jack II]

So when we say elbow break do we really mean that

Good point. Its just a hyperextension that may result in a fractured humorus if the angle is applied to just above the elbow joint. A very unlikely side-effect could be damage to the branchial artery as a complication to the fracture, pinched or severed blood vessel.

That or you could get a torn bursa, the small sack which lubricates the joint, which causes extreme pain when trying to extend the arm, tennis players can get it with the fabled "tennis elbow."

[rogue]

And those are all good techniques BJ, especially against someone not used to feeling them.

[Knifefighter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUDNr8v7eRI&mode=related&search=

Here's some nice joint manipulation. Straight out of Chen Taiji's Six Sealing Four Closing technique. I think you could easily create a dislocation if a short burst of force was used.

Those aren't breaking anything. The person applying the lock is actually more likely to have his arm hurt than the person he is applying it on.

There is a simple way to determine if these kinds of locks/breaks work. Try to apply them in sparring type situations. You don't even have to go at 100%... just try them at 80-90%, or so. It won't take you long to figure out that, even if you were going at 100%, they are almost never going to result in damage. Almost the only time you can do these types of breaks is if the opponent gives you his arm to start out with.

[MasterKiller]

Funny how no one ever has to tap while standing, but have to do this regularly on the ground. I guess competitors wait to apply full force until they hit the ground.

I tapped to a standing submission one time. Still can't figure out how the guy got me in it. He cable-gripped around my head and body and twisted my back and neck. Hurt like a mofo and I couldn't figure out how to get out.

Granted, it wouldn't have broken anything, but the pain was enough to make me tap in a class environment.

[rogue]

Believe it or not depending on the persons training they may just give you that arm. Grapplers are aware of how an arm can be used to tie them up or move them, others aren't and will make mistakes. Also injury may not be the goal but transitioning the other fellow into less advantageous position is.

And what injury are you thinking about the guy executing the technique inflicting on himself. I have one idea but if you would point out the time and technique I'd appreciate it.

[lkfmdc]

I mentioned this in the firts, maybe second (ok maybe third) thread about this subject :rolleyes: .....

KF is right in that most trained grapplers won't submit or even give you some of these techniques... but you can use them as "bait"... just like most grapplers can see an arm drag coming but you can use it to set up another technique. For example I use elbow locking to set up the arm drag, I use the stomach arm bar to set up a head lock to snap down, etc etc

[Knifefighter]

KF is right in that most trained grapplers won't submit or even give you some of these techniques... but you can use them as "bait"... just like most grapplers can see an arm drag coming but you can use it to set up another technique. For example I use elbow locking to set up the arm drag, I use the stomach arm bar to set up a head lock to snap down, etc etc

Of course they can be used as set ups. Wrestling uses a variety of manipulations for setups.

[lkfmdc]

Of course they can be used as set ups. Wrestling uses a variety of manipulations for setups.

See how easy that was! THREAD OVER :D

[Knifefighter]

And what injury are you thinking about the guy executing the technique inflicting on himself. I have one idea but if you would point out the time and technique I'd appreciate it.

The guy on the left can pull the opponent's right arm, beginning to straighten it. As he does this, he can bring his left arm up into the opponent's right elbow from underneath.

A more likely scenario, however, is that the guy on the left simply takes him down (notice how he has trouble maintaining his balance, even during this simple demonstration).

Not only that, but the guy doing the demo can't decide whether or not his right leg goes in front or in back of his opponent... which leads to other techniques he is opening himself up for by not understanding what he is doing- (i.e. rolling knee bar and/or scissor sweep takedown).

The techniques on that video are completely unrealistic on so many levels it's not even funny. Can you imagine trying to make a technique work in which you can't even keep your balance when applying it during a demo on a compliant partner?

[Knifefighter]

See how easy that was! THREAD OVER :D

Not as long as people think the techniques shown on the above clip are viable.

[Merryprankster]

Agree that techniques shown above are low percentage.

CAN they work? Yes. Would I put stock in it? No. Would I, perhaps, use them to elicit a response. Yup.

But seriously considering them as viable "breaks" is just silly.

[rogue]

The guy on the left can pull the opponent's right arm, beginning to straighten it. As he does this, he can bring his left arm up into the opponent's right elbow from underneath.

A more likely scenario, however, is that the guy on the left simply takes him down (notice how he has trouble maintaining his balance, even during this simple demonstration).

Not only that, but the guy doing the demo can't decide whether or not his right leg goes in front or in back of his opponent... which leads to other techniques he is opening himself up for by not understanding what he is doing- (i.e. rolling knee bar and/or scissor sweep takedown).

The techniques on that video are completely unrealistic on so many levels it's not even funny. Can you imagine trying to make a technique work in which you can't even keep your balance when applying it during a demo on a compliant partner?

I noticed that also but I just watched the video again and he was also showing how not to do the techniques. I missed that the first time because I had the sound off. So he seems to be aware of the same things you are.

[Black Jack II]

Low percentage may be saying it nice.

How extactly are those maneuvers practiced under a condition to help stimulate stress so one can observe the end effect?

Can they work, I am sure at some point, but it seems like taking a simple concept and nerfing it so it actually becomes harder to accomplish.


noticed that also but I just watched the video again and he was showing how not to do the techniques.

Odd, I got to go back and watch that again now.

[rogue]

His English is not perfect. At one point he even mentions losing if he does the technique the wrong way.


Anybody care to define the terms "low percentage" and "resisting opponent"?

[Knifefighter]

I noticed that also but I just watched the video again and he was also showing how not to do the techniques. I missed that the first time because I had the sound off. So he seems to be aware of the same things you are.

You are right... he loses his balance when is demonstrating the incorrect version. I stand corrected on that point.

Those are still not viable breaking techs... and we could have a whole separate conversation on setting yourself up for knee bars and scissor sweeps by bringing your leg behind and in between your opponent's legs like that.

[lkfmdc]

and we could have a whole separate conversation on setting yourself up for knee bars and scissor sweeps by bringing your leg behind and in between your opponent's legs like that.

That one I'm afraid I'm gonna call you on... pretty much every technique you can do has a counter... putting you leg behind to "bump" is in BJJ, Greco, Sambo, etc... putting your leg in front is also in pretty much all the grappling arts. Of course you can counter them? What are you suggesting, levitating over them so they have no access to your legs? :rolleyes:

[rogue]

I agree that they aren't breaking techniques. Well maybe if the guy doing them was super strong and the other real compliant and willing to stabilize himself somehow.

Once again you're right about the knee bars and scissor sweeps, but at the same time you're assuming a certain kind of encounter and a certain kind of resisting opponent. I've used those moves against karate and TKD folks during sparring without a problem, except them getting ****ed at me. But against someone else it'd be me on the wrong end of the stick.

[Meat Shake]

What are you suggesting, levitating over them so they have no access to your legs? :rolleyes:

Ashida Kim taught me that move.

[Black Jack II]

Ashida Kim taught me that move.

That is funny ****.

[Black Jack II]

Anybody care to define the terms "low percentage"

Mine may be different than others but low percentage to me revolves around complex fine motor based skills or techniques which may rely on a certain set of attribute development and constant practice to make them work.

An example would be high kicking which often rely on a high degree of fine motor skill and athleticism to pull off and with age tend to lose its effectiveness rapidly for normal people without a source of constant maintenance. You can also put in there any methods which rely on specifc weight class equity to make them shine as a high percentage technique.;)

Now sprinkle over this the effects of a AD dump and the psychological effects of fear and it becomes more clear....at least to me.:cool:

[Knifefighter]

That one I'm afraid I'm gonna call you on... pretty much every technique you can do has a counter... putting you leg behind to "bump" is in BJJ, Greco, Sambo, etc... putting your leg in front is also in pretty much all the grappling arts. Of course you can counter them? What are you suggesting, levitating over them so they have no access to your legs? :rolleyes:

Yes... every technique has a counter, but you don't want to set yourself up and serve something up to your opponent on a silver platter. Putting your leg behind and between your legs like that gives the opponent the opportunity for a knee bar or a flying scissor sweep (a technque that is banned in judo competitions because of potential leg injuries- and we could also start another conversation about leg injuries being higher percentage than arm injuries from standing).

One principle of submission grappling/BJJ is to never step between your opponent's legs from behind with one leg like that.

It takes a lot of work to set a skilled opponent up to be in a position like that for a rolling knee bar or scissor sweep. I'm surprised that people would actaully give that position away.

[rogue]

Mine may be different than others...

And thus the problem with the term "low percentage".;)

[Black Jack II]

And thus the problem with the term "low percentage".

So very true bro.

I still think my definition holds water in the general context of self defense I was placing it under.:D

[rogue]

They all do, it's when they're actually put into context that things get dicey.:D

[Black Jack II]

True dat.

One man's eye poke is another man's eye problem.;)

[lkfmdc]

One principle of submission grappling/BJJ is to never step between your opponent's legs from behind with one leg like that.

It takes a lot of work to set a skilled opponent up to be in a position like that for a rolling knee bar or scissor sweep. I'm surprised that people would actaully give that position away.

Maybe it's the internet and we're not talking about the same thing, but I learned this from Randy Couture, I think he's fought, we night be able to find some footage of it somewhere :rolleyes: :p

You get a right underhook and put your righ hip forward. If you put your right leg BETWEEN his legs you can either drive him back into the cage/wall OR you can lower innner hook him and take him down. If you your leg is on the OUTSIDE of his leg you knee bump him and take him down (end up in mount). If he steps out to escape that I can knee strike him with my left

Sure, he can try and scissor or knee bar me vs those techniques, but if I apply the proper body mechanics and pressure I have a pretty good attack going

[rogue]

Now this is service. KF has already videoed and posted his testing of the technique.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY9j2G-D6aY&mode=related&search=

:D

[Knifefighter]

Maybe it's the internet and we're not talking about the same thing, but I learned this from Randy Couture, I think he's fought, we night be able to find some footage of it somewhere :rolleyes: :p

You get a right underhook and put your righ hip forward. If you put your right leg BETWEEN his legs you can either drive him back into the cage/wall OR you can lower innner hook him and take him down. If you your leg is on the OUTSIDE of his leg you knee bump him and take him down (end up in mount). If he steps out to escape that I can knee strike him with my left

First of all, it is hard to get to the position in the first place, as the opponent will always try to keep squared off with you.

I think you have Randy's technique wrong. You have to step from a squared off position, not from behind or the side. If you step between the legs, or wrap the leg it is from this squared off position.

If you step between the legs (as was shown in the above clip) from the side or behind, you give the opponent the leg attacks he wants, whether you have an underhook or not.

Once again, putting your leg between your opponent's legs from behind is always a bad idea.



Sure, he can try and scissor or knee bar me vs those techniques, but if I apply the proper body mechanics and pressure I have a pretty good attack going

He cannot attack your leg if you step from the squared-off position.