On Kung Fu and Grappling

[DarkKnight]

Of course my immediate answer to any grappling need (in a kung fu context) would be Shuai-chiao.
However, the actual ground fighting elements of SC
are more to break or stun and then to disengage.
Monkey Fist is pretty buch in the same boat.
Gou Chuan (dog fist) has a more well-rounded ground fighting arsenal and would be a possible option but their main context is in striking.
There is also Bando, which is essentially Kung Fu from Burma (but still has it's origins from Shoalin). Bando has a Python style that has some very good locks which use the whole body to attack a single limb. Here you will find arm bars, leg locks and a variety of chokes.
However, for pure submission style, ground based grappling, no style on the planet will be on par with Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

[Chang Style Novice]

BJJ seems to be top rung now, but I find it hard to believe that it cannot be improved upon. Surely, someone somewhere could have an idea that is effective and not used by BJJ.

Having not trained in BJJ, and as a very beginning Judo student, it should be noted I may be talking out my tuchis.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[Stranger]

SAMBO is an awesome grappling style in my opinion (particularly for the streets).

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

[Budokan]

Yeah, I'd hate to go up against someone who really knows sambo. That's one tough style.

K. Mark Hoover

[DarkKnight]

Yeah, Sambo has some real good things to offer.
However, on the ground it is inferior to BJJ.
Of course, like everything, it comes down to the practitioner.

[Jaguar Wong]

Chang Style, the thing about BJJ is that is it being improved upon all the time. People are learning the core basics, and expanding upon their strengths. Just like they should be doing with any style...as long as it's trained correctly.

If you look at BJJ's progression from just the 90's to today, you'll see a lot more wrestling takedowns added, as well as more leg locks, but I don't know if those are coming from Sambo, or Shooto. BJJers are testing their skills, and developing new stuff, while abandoning the stuff that doesn't work for them (I'm talking on a personal level, because what doesn't work for them, still works for someone else). So along the top levels of BJJ, you'll see people with different skills and strengths (like Royce's legendary guard) :).

In fact, one of our friends was showing us some crazy stuff they work on at his school. One of the guys actually used a foot choke on him. It is very hard to describe, and I'm sure I forgot most of the details already, but I was trippin' out when I saw how innovative they get when they roll all the time (I'm talking 5 - 6 days a week for hours at a time).

Jaguar Wong

[Chang Style Novice]

Makes sense. If you're going to refine and improve groundfighting, the school for a sophisticated groundfighting system would have to be the place for it.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[Stranger]

DK,

"inferior"?
I respect your opinion, but I believe that SAMBO, while not necessarily "superior", can not be labeled "inferior" either.

1) SAMBO has wrestling based takedowns and streamlined judo-type throws of a much higher skill level than found in BJJ. Takedowns are very important in SAMBO. If your opponent is injured on the way to the ground, your groundfight starts off much better than when you drag a fresh opponent into the guard.

2) SAMBO fighters do not cook BG's in their guard and they don't turtle as often as other non-BJJ groundfighters. The guard is hell in real fights (most BJJ and Brazilian Vale Tudo fighters will readily admit this). I know that BJJ guys can do more than the guard. Hours and hours of mid-guard work might be better spent a) working reversals b) practicing from safer positions c)working on scrambling d) working takedowns e) anything! The mid-guard range is suicide on the streets. It is the offspring of Sport BJJ.

3) Leglocks are easier to snag and are less likely to result in getting bitten or eye gouged than upperbody submissions. SAMBO is the king of leglock arts.

I've trained in both arts (BJJ for much longer),and think that a person truly interested in learning a well rounded ground game would be best served by studying both.

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

[Jaguar Wong]

Plus Sambo has those attractive uniforms (tight Judo jacket, and speedos) :eek: You gotta love that. Seriously, though. I read about the history of Sambo in JAMA (not the Journal of the American Medical Association), and I was pretty impressed with what I saw. It had a couple of technique deonstrations as well, one of them involving choking out a downed opponent with your shin and forearm (or hand, I don't remember the details), while still in a kneeling positon. I thought that was very cool. Plus the article mentioned somewhere that Sambo guys in Judo tournaments were the first ones using crazy techs like the flying armbar.

Plus, dem crazy Russians train anything and everything with a lot of intensity. Like the Brazilians :).

Jaguar Wong

[Grappling-Insanity]

You cant really compare Sambo and BJJ since there really different systems working for the same end. I would LOVE to learn from a good Sambo guy. Leg locks are probably the small guys best wepon.

[Ralek]

I have used the guard in a street fight agiasnt a national level san shou fighter and former opponenent of Marvin Perry.

The guard is the best position you can possibly be in when you are on your back whether it is sport or a street fight. The only other positions would be the bottom of the mount and the bottome of side control. Those are placed you don't want to be.

Basically the gaurd just means "don't let them get passed your legs" So you guys are saying that in a street fight if you fell on your back you would just let the guy mount you and not try and keep him from passing your legs?

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

[Jaguar Wong]

LOL! Now it was a street fight with Shaolin Tiger!?! :p

Jaguar Wong

[Stranger]

Obviously if I went to my back I would put the opponent in my guard. The way some people are trained BJJ, they would hang there staring at their opponent fishing for submissions. Listen to Mario Sperry or Rickson Gracie's take on the subject- guard should either be tight or long range. Helio hates the mid-guard too. You just can't let somebody sit up in your guard in a real fight and get base- they'll pound on you. SAMBO avoids time on the back, and that is a fight strategy that I can agree with. If I do end up on my back, I go to guard (closed or long, never mid-guard). I said a smart grappler would know both approaches to grappling.

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

[Pika]

On the street, the only time to use the guard is when you have no choice. It is the most superior offensive and defensive position on your back, but I would never 'pull guard' on the street.

Stranger is correct. The guard in a street situation should be long or short range, I personally prefer short, as finishes and sweeps are available. Long range is best for mltiple attackers, as you can return to your feet and run (I believe the best method of defence against multiple attackers).

Pika.

[Xebsball]

"agiasnt a national level san shou fighter and former opponenent of Marvin Perry"

Say that again and i'll go MONDO NUTS!!!!!! MONDO NUTS!!!!!!

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