chinese special forces knife clip

[Black Jack II]

Here is footage of some PRC Special Forces Knife training. It's hard to find anything on chinese offensive knife work so I thought some may want to discuss this. The techniques on the vid are all reverse grip/pikal and done in gross motor long range motions from a weak hand guard position with the blade held back to help power the blow.

ehhh....I have seen and experianced far worse than this but I've got some problems with what is shown in terms of some of the executed movements and one step mentality of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnW6tnMsvAk

[rogue]

That's pretty bad even at a basic level. Are you sure that's their SF?

[lkfmdc]

I have this VCD format with no translations, and man he has an accent :p

Some good stuff but also an example of how CMA never escapes some of its baggage. They had to arrange teh techniques into a "form" and teach the form, then teh applications, instead of going straight to the knife work

[rogue]

Did you guys really think that was good?:confused:

The guy shows his knife and then makes a big downward strike. He looks like the perfect guy to use that old karate upward block vs knife defense against.

[Black Jack II]

Don't use the word guys....I never said it was good.

I said I have been through far worse in my knife training quests for knowledge.;)

[rogue]

Here's Mr. Henry teaching how to use flashy knife moves against stationary attackers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_jBeDKdV64&mode=related&search=

[Black Jack II]

That is a good vid to show the complete opposite side of the PRC Special Forces material. In terms of fancy to non-flashy.

Though if I had to teach someone either of those two approaches straight from that vid. It would be number one.

[Knifefighter]

Here is footage of some PRC Special Forces Knife training. It's hard to find anything on chinese offensive knife work so I thought some may want to discuss this. The techniques on the vid are all reverse grip/pikal and done in gross motor long range motions from a weak hand guard position with the blade held back to help power the blow.

ehhh....I have seen and experianced far worse than this but I've got some problems with what is shown in terms of some of the executed movements and one step mentality of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnW6tnMsvAk

I think if one has a knife and he is being attacked by someone who is unarmed, he can do almost whatever technique he wants.

[Black Jack II]

I think if one has a knife and he is being attacked by someone who is unarmed, he can do whatever technique he wants.

LOL....guess so.:D

[rogue]

But where's the coolness factor in that?:D

[Oso]

not terrible but not great

good lord...using a long fist, large frame format????? wait...someone with better experience in BSL or plain old NLF tell me that's not an empty hand form with a knife???

[Black Jack II]

Don't you dare make me break on the Erle tai chi knife clip on youtube.....:D

Here is a article by Rovere who works with chinese military combatives. Wonder if his knife stuff is the same.

http://www.rovere.com/wjknf.html

Sounds different as stances are not stressed and movements more natural. At least according to this article.

[lkfmdc]

An ice pick grip stab into the "well of the neck" will kill you, so it isn't such a bad technique, the horizontal stab into the are below teh floating ribs is also pretty deadly.... what makes it horrible is how stiff he is, from doing it like a form!

[lkfmdc]

However, having purchased the video that knife fighter recommeneded for me, I no longer fear the knife

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nqtt-b0cmBI

[Black Jack II]

An ice pick grip stab into the "well of the neck" will kill you, so it isn't such a bad technique, the horizontal stab into the are below teh floating ribs is also pretty deadly.... what makes it horrible is how stiff he is, from doing it like a form!

Extactly, the vital zone choices are fine, its the stiff application of these principles that sucks.

[Oso]

i didn't watch all of it but at one point the translation says he's saying that 'obviously he wasn't in a horse stance' and that the movements must be done more 'agilely'

[shrug] at least there is some attempt to recognize the translation of form into reality. but, I think, as you say lkfmdc, there is still baggage to shed.

well of the neck usually targets the subclavian artery...somewhere/someone said that that will 'empty' the brain case in just seconds. ???


and, really, any 'form' that is stiff is just wrong. beginners might be stiff with unfamiliarity but as you get to know the form, and hopefully how it could be used in 'reality' then you lose the stiffness and have a more natural movement that may not be 'textbook' but, well, I can tell if a guy doing a form has ever even thought about applying the dance to fighting or not.

[Oso]

However, having purchased the video that knife fighter recommeneded for me, I no longer fear the knife

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nqtt-b0cmBI

Brilliant as usual from old school, pre-full-length-movie Python.

[rogue]

Even with good targets I'm sticking with all around horrible.

[Royal Dragon]

I like 2:10-2:14

The knife weilding attacking instructor walks right into a really hard well aligned striaght to the face.....:rolleyes:

I'm not much of a knife fighter or anything like that, but if I was the puncher, I'd jack the guy in the face really hard and step back right after.

Even in I got cut, at least my punch would keep him at a distance to where my blubbery belly would just get skined, and nothing vital.

One thing I have noticed, a LOT of TCMA apps have the defender walking right into a striaght punch to the face....why is that?

[PangQuan]

I like 2:10-2:14

The knife weilding attacking instructor walks right into a really hard well aligned striaght to the face.....:rolleyes:

I'm not much of a knife fighter or anything like that, but if I was the puncher, I'd jack the guy in the face really hard and step back right after.

Even in I got cut, at least my punch would keep him at a distance to where my blubbery belly would just get skined, and nothing vital.

One thing I have noticed, a LOT of TCMA apps have the defender walking right into a striaght punch to the face....why is that?

Masochism????

[Black Jack II]

welcome to the wonderful world of knifefighting, where everyone is an expert and everyone is always right.:D


Even with good targets I'm sticking with all around horrible.

It's not my cup of tactical tea but I can point out some basic value besides the length of bad that comes along with it. One of the biggest points you can say about that material, and I am not endorsing it, is that with some logical stripped down modification and actual repeated intent behind the stuff shown, it is a hell of a lot easier to remeber than the korean stuff posted on the following link.


well of the neck usually targets the subclavian artery...somewhere/someone said that that will 'empty' the brain case in just seconds. ???

The human body can withstand a massive amount of damage, a lot more than most people give it credit for, so I don't buy into a lot of the instant death blade work on average. I have read some medical info which states that a subclavian stab can cause loss of consciousness with two to five seconds, but what scares me just as much is the effect of psychogenic or hemorrhagic shock.

If you survive the blade encounter your not out of the woods yet.

[xcakid]

Never been in any knife fights, but I have taken and seen many so called knife techniques. I can tell you this; nothing better for knife fighting than Kali/Arnis.

[Black Jack II]

nothing better for knife fighting than Kali/Arnis

I have done fma for years as well as silat and that is not allways true. Many different systems and teachers in FMA and there not all equal.

[Oso]

The human body can withstand a massive amount of damage, a lot more than most people give it credit for, so I don't buy into a lot of the instant death blade work on average. I have read some medical info which states that a subclavian stab can cause loss of consciousness with two to five seconds,


well, our timeline is similar...and, if you are unconscious w/ a cut artery...you'd be dead shortly after.


but what scares me just as much is the effect of psychogenic or hemorrhagic shock.

If you survive the blade encounter your not out of the woods yet.

that's true as well...me, I'm gonna pull a 'John Cleese Defense' given the opportunity.

[lkfmdc]

you got to plan ahead, have you 16 ton weight ready at all times....

[rogue]

It's not my cup of tactical tea but I can point out some basic value besides the length of bad that comes along with it. One of the biggest points you can say about that material, and I am not endorsing it, is that with some logical stripped down modification and actual repeated intent behind the stuff shown, it is a hell of a lot easier to remeber than the korean stuff posted on the following link.

BJ, You do know that the Hwarangdo crap is the same material from Michael Echanis' infamous Black Book. I've yet to see anybody else use it except for the HRD guys, which should tell us something. And remember, if something is crap but easy to remember, it's still crap.:D

[Oso]

i'm a big guy but I don't think I could conceal that :D

that's why I'm going to get a tiger.

[Black Jack II]

BJ, You do know that the Hwarangdo crap is the same material from Michael Echanis' infamous Black Book

Yep sure do, ahh the infamous Echanis....heh.

From my understanding Echanis did not spend much time in HRD at all, maybe about a month or so, for that matter because of his injury he did not spend a long time in the military either.

Regarding his HRD training I think he used the term privately trained to help explain his fast promotion in the system even though he did not take HRD for very long, getting a promotion to a black belt to help build some extra cred could bring some welcome money to himself and the HRD group lead by Joo Bang Lee if one of his government contracts went through, such as the job he had in Nicaragua.

It's not the HRD that made him so well known, I think it was the fact that he was just one of those born hard kinda cats, and his rep has really made Ohara Publications a bit of extra cash.


And remember, if something is crap but easy to remember, it's still crap.

True, but its a less smelly grade of crap than the flashy, overcomplicated crap.:cool:

[rogue]

The good old HRD/Echanis boondoggle. Though I have it on very, very good authority that the man was a cold killer and not too great a human being. The HRD gave him both credibility of rank and myth. Recently I came across a thread I had about Echanis.

I'm a little biased toward the American variety of knife work. I'm still quite bad at it though.:D

[Black Jack II]

I'm a little biased toward the American variety of knife work. I'm still quite bad at it though


ummm.....western based knife combatives and studies. Yeah, lets just say its a passion and I could not agree more.:D

[xcakid]

I have done fma for years as well as silat and that is not allways true. Many different systems and teachers in FMA and there not all equal.


Yes. Guess you're right. Most instructors found commercially I found do not practice the Escrima part of Filipino MA. They tend to focus on the Arnis(stick fighting) and Kali(empty hand and locking). I have found very few that knows about Daga y Daga and Espada Y Daga fighting(although Arnis is suppose to be the beginning training for it). As well as Filipino boxing using the balisong. But those that do are pretty **** dangerous. There was a guy in Stockton, CA that taught this. He was from a Moro tribe in the Phillipines. That is where he learned it from. Got passed down through his village. Not sure he is still alive though. I was about 12 and he was already in his mid 50's.

[Black Jack II]

Yes. Guess you're right. Most instructors found commercially I found do not practice the Escrima part of Filipino MA. They tend to focus on the Arnis(stick fighting) and Kali(empty hand and locking). I have found very few that knows about Daga y Daga and Espada Y Daga fighting(although Arnis is suppose to be the beginning training for it). As well as Filipino boxing using the balisong

The terms Arnis, Escrima and Kali are all the one and the same.

Actually Kali is more of a bogus and misleading term first used in the 1960's to describe the integrated filipino martial arts and you really only see it outside of the Philipines. People refer to it as the mother art of Arnis and Escrima but there is no proof of that whatsoever and it more than not came from the word kalis which is a sword.

There are many-many different systems of eskrima, each with its own flavour, take on fighting and personal background. Modern Arnis, Pekiti Tirsia Kali, Sayoc Kali, Balintawak, Black Eagle Eskrima, Kali-Silat, Kombatan Arnis, San Miguel Eskrima, Doce Pares, the Dog Brothers to name but a few.

The empty hand is in all systems from a interchangable point of view, buno wrestling, suntukan boxing, sikiran kicking, pagamut joint locking, its all part of the same pie, just some have bigger slices for different things like blade or baston or empty hand or even something like the spanish whip.

You mentioned Moro, there is a moro-moro style as well.

[xcakid]

The terms Arnis, Escrima and Kali are all the one and the same.




Beg to differ........just a bit. True they describe FMA in general. However, they are a more direct description of stages within FMA though. Arnis being the training with stick as well as open hand application. Escrima being more advanced denoting the training with bladed weapons. Kali, well yes, that is somewhat a misnomer. Buno, Suntukan, Sikiran and Pagamut are all part of the same system. :D

[Black Jack II]

However, they are a more direct description of stages within FMA though

Disagree. A rose by any other name is still a rose but that is not correct.

The true difference lies in the style itself and not the term used as a marker, for example Sayoc Kali is basically to the public a blade all the time system where something like Balintawak Escrima focuses mostly on a longer single baston.

Sayoc Kali used to be called Sayoc Escrima before the name was changed yet here both arts focus on different aspects. It honestly has to do with the factor of location in the philipines, whichever dialect or region of the country the system or teacher came from.

Luzon Islands, Cebu, Ilonggas, Aetas, moro-moro/muslim south, where ever the location of birth, though all from a ancient malay people.


Buno, Suntukan, Sikiran and Pagamut are all part of the same system.

Yep and oddly no at the same time. Some fma styles or teachers have aspects of those above in there teachings, maybe a bit of all, but they also exist on there own with the exception of Pagamut I believe.

[xcakid]

Disagree. A rose by any other name is still a rose but that is not correct.

The true difference lies in the style itself and not the term used as a marker, for example Sayoc Kali is basically to the public a blade all the time system where something like Balintawak Escrima focuses mostly on a longer single baston.

Sayoc Kali used to be called Sayoc Escrima before the name was changed yet here both arts focus on different aspects. It honestly has to do with the factor of location in the philipines, whichever dialect or region of the country the system or teacher came from.

Luzon Islands, Cebu, Ilonggas, Aetas, moro-moro/muslim south, where ever the location of birth, though all from a ancient malay people.



Yep and oddly no at the same time. Some fma styles or teachers have aspects of those above in there teachings, maybe a bit of all, but they also exist on there own with the exception of Pagamut I believe.

I don't have any written documentation or web links to post. However, based on the Pilipino language(I am of Pilipino descent BTW, but grew up in the US) and what was taught to me in FMA, Escrima means, roughly translated, fencing. Denoting bladed weapons. OK so escrima is really not Pilipino by nature rather Spanish derived. Don't recall now the exact dialect where Arnis came from but if memory serves me right, it meant working with sticks or baston.

Yes each different region will have their our flavour to the art. My instructors have been for the most part from Ilocos Norte and the one that was a Moro. I noticed that the ones from Ilocos incorporated a lot of take downs, arm breaks and ground techniques. While the Moro derived one focused on disarming and targeting limbs as well as ground techniques.

ehhh.....we're talking symantics now. Not really worth arguing. :) We now return you to your regularly scheduled topic now in progress.

[rogue]

I still think that Chinese blade work sukced, and so did the HRD one too.:D

[Black Jack II]

ehhh.....we're talking symantics now. Not really worth arguing.

We are not arguing, its a interesting topic to broach on is all. Funny part being that the FMA arts are not the most practiced martial arts in the philipines, judo and karate take that prize.

Plus lets not foget that the great influence the European nations such as Spain, Portugal and Italy had on fma. Soliders and merc's brought with them the cut & thrust swords of the period and there specific fighting methods. Methods like those used by the Italian teacher Di Grassi and Spanish teachers like de Narvaez.

That is what is great about the fma arts, the real fma arts, they take anything usefull and intergrate it, from judo to boxing, to spanish sword methods.

Rogue,

You know your doing the HRD stuff right now......black makeup under the eyes ala Geg Walker. Heheh

[Oso]

That is what is great about the fma arts, the real fma arts, they take anything usefull and intergrate it, from judo to boxing, to spanish sword methods.

i feel the Precas certainly did this in his teaming with Jay and others. While it may be very debatable what Dillman added to Modern Arnis, Jay's influence is pretty obvious to me.

[Scott R. Brown]

that's true as well...me, I'm gonna pull a 'John Cleese Defense' given the opportunity.

That only works when someone attacks you with a banana or "a point-ed stick! :D

[Oso]

i betcha a tiger will work against almost anything short of a gun.

except of course a trio of chinese guys armed with a tiger fork, a broadsword and twin daggers :p

[xcakid]

Funny part being that the FMA arts are not the most practiced martial arts in the philipines, judo and karate take that prize.

Plus lets not foget that the great influence the European nations such as Spain, Portugal and Italy had on fma. Soliders and merc's brought with them the cut & thrust swords of the period and there specific fighting methods. Methods like those used by the Italian teacher Di Grassi and Spanish teachers like de Narvaez.

That is what is great about the fma arts, the real fma arts, they take anything usefull and intergrate it, from judo to boxing, to spanish sword methods.



Yep. FMA is great at incorporating what works. The other good thing about FMA is that it melts into any, I mean any, MA style out there. When I was in Shaolin Kempo we incorporated FMA. When I was in Sil Lum and was asst. instructing my sifu gave me the go ahead to incorporate the stick fighting aspect of Arnis. When I was in TaeKwonDo we also worked with FMA. And that was the traditional Kukiwon WTF style TaeKwonDo.

Hmmm....I wonder if my current sifu would let me teach FMA and incorporate it with Long Fist. :cool:

[Black Jack II]

Jay's influence is pretty obvious to me

From there we can follow the chain, Jay got it from the western martial art of Lua.:)

[rovere]

Black Jack II

This Video material is not what I was shown from the Wu Jing or am referring to in my article. While the militayr bodyguards do teach forms with the knife (and both forward and reverse grips) they fight closer; use smller, tighter,more natural movments and stepping (helps to prevent disarming); and always assume and train against an opponent that is armed. (e.g. Knife vs. knife; knife against baton; knife against rifle/bayonet; etc.)

[Black Jack II]

Rovere,

Thanks for responding, as I stated it did not sound like it was the same material but since chinese knife combatives is not that common I linked it for the discussion.:)