What kung fu reminds me of...

[Flying-Monkey]

Most kung fu schools remind me of survey classes in college. Actually, kung fu, itself, does not remind of survey classes. The way kung fu is taught reminds me of survey classes. Survey classes give you a general idea of the subject. It goes over a broad topics.

What I mean is this: Many kung fu school teach mainly forms, few applications, and even fewer sparring/ realistic self defense techniques. It is kind of like those physics for non-scientist classes.

__________________________________________________ ______________

After thought:

Kung fu is archaic as a fighting and self defense style. However, it is still effective if it is taught by a good teacher. In addition, it has cultural, historical, health, mental and in some ways spiritual benefits.

Do you need to learn MMA or other martial arts to successfully defend yourself? Not necessarily. If you want to be a complete sports fighter, you do. Do all fights go to the ground? No. This is a modern myth. However, this does not mean that fights cannot go to the ground. Not all sports fights go to the ground. This is true even with two grapplers.

Like mentioned above, kung fu is archaic. It is difficult to teach correctly, and it is difficult to learn. It also takes a long time to learn in most cases. The good thing is that most of us do not live in societies where fighting skills are needed in a short period of time. Plus, do not forget the benefits mentioned above.

[Oso]

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..........

[Flying-Monkey]

What does that mean?

[Oso]

it means nice try thanks for playing.

but, i guess you are serious...

[neilhytholt]

I give that a 0/10. This doesn't even make a point.

[lkfmdc]

it's got an interesting beat, but I can't dance to it...

[neilhytholt]

Here's my recommendation. If your CMA teacher isn't teaching you fighting, QUIT. It's very easy, you just stop going to class and giving them $$$.

Of course, they won't change what they're doing, except maybe add sanda ... big puffy gloves and MMA will take over the world. LOL

[rogue]

It's spelled effective, not affective.

A better way to get responses...

Most kung fu schools remind me of a steaming 6 day old pile of flan that's covered in flies.

For karate change the 6 days to 7.

[Flying-Monkey]

It is two threads in one.

I thought of the second half as I was writing.

The points are:

1. Kung fu is not taught completely; however, it is sold as such.

2. Although kung fu is old, difficult and limited, it still has a place in martial arts.

If you did not understand my thread, you could has asked.

[Flying-Monkey]

It's spelled effective, not affective.

A better way to get responses...

Most kung fu schools remind me of a steaming 6 day old pile of flan that's covered in flies.

For karate change the 6 days to 7.

Thank you for the spelling correction. i did not notice it. :)

[neilhytholt]

It is two threads in one.

I thought of the second half as I was writing.

The points are:

1. Kung fu is not taught completely; however, it is sold as such.

2. Although kung fu is old, difficult and limited, it still has a place in martial arts.

If you did not understand my thread, you could has asked.

So basically you're saying that the teachers suck (and are liars), but still go to them. I don't really like that sentiment.

[Fu-Pow]

I hate to say it but I see some similiarity between kung fu and....

http://stovebend.us/isu/veisha/sca3.jpg

http://www.hawkcreek.org/images/festival/dudes_lar.jpg

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[neilhytholt]

Look, if you don't DEMAND more from your MMA teachers, you're not going to get more.

And most of them say, "Okay, study here or quit." So the only option is to quit.

Otherwise you're rewarding them for being liars and cheaters and sucky teachers.

[rogue]

I hate to say it but I see some similiarity between kung fu and....

http://stovebend.us/isu/veisha/sca3.jpg

Three guys in shorts and baseball caps?:confused:

[neilhytholt]

Three guys in short and baseball caps?:confused:

Society for Creative Anachronisms ... pretending that they're in the middle ages.

This is perhaps the first seemingly intelligent thing that Fu Pow has said on here.

[rogue]

They wore shorts and baseball caps in the middle ages?:confused:

[Flying-Monkey]

So basically you're saying that the teachers suck (and are liars), but still go to them. I don't really like that sentiment.

I did not say that. They are two different thoughts. That is why there is a line between them. They are not connected.

The second has an assumption. The assumption is that the kung fu style is taught correctly.

[Flying-Monkey]

They wore shorts and baseball caps in the middle ages?:confused:

lol!!!!!:)

[neilhytholt]

I did not say that. They are two different thoughts. That is why there is a line between them. They are not connected.

The second has an assumption. The assumption is that the kung fu style is taught correctly.

Whatever... this is another useless discussion.

In other news, Iran captured 15 British soldiers ... so when are we going to war, or will they give them up peaceful like?

[Flying-Monkey]

They were my thoughts. If they do not interest you, that is ok.

what style do you do, neilhytholt?

[neilhytholt]

They were my thoughts. If they do not interest you, that is ok.

what style do you do, neilhytholt?

It's not that it's not interesting, it's just that you aren't really saying that much.

Like I said, I quit. I don't train with anybody or take any classes anymore. You have to quit if they aren't giving you what they want, otherwise you will get crap and pay for it.

[rogue]

F-Moneky. I think you have a point to make but just phrased it funny. Give it another try.:cool:

[Flying-Monkey]

Please forgive my poor phasing. Thank you for your patients, Rogue.

The first half:

I know most of you been to or are in college. There are intro and survey classes in almost all fields of study. I used Physic for non-scientist as an example. In this class, you learn a general history of physics and go through all the main topics in physic: classical mechanics, electro-magnetism, relativity, quantum theory etc. However, there are no mathematics. A student will have a general understanding of physics, but they cannot go into a lab and do research.

I feel the way kung fu is being taught is like classes. Forms are (on the most part) encyclopedias of the techniques in the style. In most cases, KF teachers do a half ass job teaching the forms and explaining the applications. Then, for self defense, they teach half ass kick boxing, which has nothing to do with the forms and applications that have nothing to do with forms. They teach the half ass kick boxing one a week or twice a month or never at all. The student knows about martial arts in general, but cannot apply it.


The second half:

When kung fu is taught correctly, it is still useful even though it is a little out dated.

I hope this is a little easier to understand.

[PangQuan]

I hate to say it but I see some similiarity between kung fu and....

http://stovebend.us/isu/veisha/sca3.jpg

http://www.hawkcreek.org/images/festival/dudes_lar.jpg

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:


http://martial-artistry.com:8490/johnathanspear.jpg

what are you trying to say?

[rogue]

F-M,
That's true of many martial arts today. IMO it comes from a lack of purpose or trying to be too many things to too many people.

In your opinion what parts do you find a little out dated, and do you see any way to get them in the present?

[Flying-Monkey]

F-M,
That's true of many martial arts today. IMO it comes from a lack of purpose or trying to be too many things to too many people.

In your opinion what parts do you find a little out dated, and do you see any way to get them in the present?

That would take a lengthy reply. I will do it in a few hours.

[Royal Dragon]

Society for Creative Anachronisms ... pretending that they're in the middle ages.

This is perhaps the first seemingly intelligent thing that Fu Pow has said on here.

Reply]
The scarry part about those midevile guys, thay actualy FIGHT with thier weapons. You can get all sorts of training and sparring weapons. They hold sparring and fighting contests with them. I'd be willing to bet they would Kill a TCMA guy at weapons fighting. They are a nutzo bunch of people, and sometimes don't know the meaning of restraint, but they do use thier skills under pressure.

When I am ready, if there are no Dog Bro's in Chicago, I'm doing weapons fighting with those nerds.

[neilhytholt]

Flying-Monkey, tonight I found a page that might sum up what you are trying to say:

http://www.psiaa.org/membership.htm

"Membership schools are principle based, non-sports oriented."

Or, in other words, they don't do any fighting. In fact, only one of them from what I've been told does any sparring, which is Jake's school, who posts on here.

[Oso]

Society for Creative Anachronisms ... pretending that they're in the middle ages.

This is perhaps the first seemingly intelligent thing that Fu Pow has said on here.

Reply]
The scarry part about those midevile guys, thay actualy FIGHT with thier weapons. You can get all sorts of training and sparring weapons. They hold sparring and fighting contests with them. I'd be willing to bet they would Kill a TCMA guy at weapons fighting. They are a nutzo bunch of people, and sometimes don't know the meaning of restraint, but they do use thier skills under pressure.

When I am ready, if there are no Dog Bro's in Chicago, I'm doing weapons fighting with those nerds.

not my experience. the SCA group round here wouldn't let me spar with them unless I had all the armor built as they specified. I told them 'don't you read your D&D books well enough...MONKS don't wear armor! :p

I tried for years to get this one guy to spar with me and told him he could use whatever weapon he wanted (didn't matter much...they were all rattan of different lengths) and I would just use my bear hands and if he hit me hard enough to knock me down, he won if I could knock him down, he won. He would never agree...said it wouldn't be fair because he had the armor and the sheild and such. ftr, he was inches taller than me and 200+, 5+ years older and supposedly some sort of black belt in something as well. He was actually the only person in that group who seemed capable...so, I wasn't trying to pick on some 98 pound kid with

[Ben Gash]

I know a couple of "historical fencers" as they're known here, and it certainly seems rough 'n' tough.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

To a certain degree I will agree with the analogy that F Monkey is using. In college you take an intro course which is basically an outline of a particular subject. Nothing is studied in great depth, just the basic facts so to speak. If you look around the class, most people are there because they have to be. Fast forward to a more advanced course on the subject and you will find far fewer students but the ones there for the most part are serious and show some kind of interest in what they are learning. Martial arts is similiar to this, many start and want a basic understanding of self defense or fighting. When they realize it takes time, hard work, and dedication, they quit. The ones left are the serious students who have the dedication. Style and functionality are left as the key aspects as to whether or not the dedicated student wasted his/her time or not. Someone who is dedicated and trains hard can still suck if 1. What they were taught was crap or 2. They do not have some natural ability to absorb what they were taught.

[rogue]

not my experience. the SCA group round here wouldn't let me spar with them unless I had all the armor built as they specified. I told them 'don't you read your D&D books well enough...MONKS don't wear armor! :p

I tried for years to get this one guy to spar with me and told him he could use whatever weapon he wanted (didn't matter much...they were all rattan of different lengths) and I would just use my bear hands and if he hit me hard enough to knock me down, he won if I could knock him down, he won.

Ummm Oso, we might want to rethink your strategy.:D

[Royal Dragon]

Oso,
The Group in Chicago said so long as I was useing one of the sparring weapons (Hard foam, like the kind our headgear is made from), I could jump in and fight with them any time I wanted.

[WinterPalm]

I would say that I have to respectfully disagree with some of the stuff that was well-thought out, and disrespectfully disagree with the medeval reinactment stuff.

First off, if you are not sparring at a high intensity, whatever that means, you are not training properly.
If you are not drilling and drilling, and drilling some more, you are not training properly.
Forms are important and very necessary for developing kung fu skill...but not to the exclusion of everything else. They contain many good applicable methods of physical and mental preperation including agility and coordination...yes there are other ways to train this, that is not the point.

I would say that your first couple years of training, if done daily and with great intent, is like the first couple of years of college/university. Then, as you get to the upper level classes, say third year and honours classes, you start to get very specialized and integrated knowledge and skills that carry over to the earlier basics you learned....it is also worth noting that there are very few people in your class of 10 that started in first year survey courses of 200+. Kung fu is like this as well.

Kung Fu is for combative purposes first and foremost. The weapons are good training but not something you will use in the street more than likely. You are better off doing empty hand sparring or against someone else with a weapon.

F-Monkey, you are 100% right...you need a great teacher to help you and then you have to dig deep down to see if you have the ability to continually learn and apply and be a great student...that is the goal to me. Without great teachers and great students, where can one learn? If you are no good it might be your teacher but it might be you as well...or maybe a mixture.

That said, there is a point of diminishing returns where all your extra effort and work is not balanced by proper guidance and training, that is another thing altogether.

I think a more critical issue might be that since Kung Fu is surrounded by an ethics of non-violence, many have slacked in their preparation for violence which leads to sloppy or unable kung fu guys.

[Fu-Pow]

I think that there is a crowd within the kung fu community that bears a striking resemblance to the SCA people. Same mindset, different culture...one west the other east.

You know the type I'm talking about. They show up at tournaments in there full Chinese middle ages regalia. They compete the hell out of the forms competition.

Sparring starts......*crickets chirping*...hey where'd everyone go? They looked so tough in there silk jammies with their old school weapons.


FP

[neilhytholt]

Well, fighting in tournaments isn't safe in terms of disease.

You're getting hit with gloves that other people got hit by and who knows what diseases they have.

I wouldn't compete in sparring tournaments anymore just because it's not hygienic.

[WinterPalm]

Fu-Pow,

Maybe I was a bit universalist in what I said...but I know exactly what you are talking about. I see the guys wearing the crazy robes and getups, etc, and pretending to be Chinese (that Asia-phile issue is a whole other thread) or what they think is Chinese.
I suppose if that is what they want and they understand it is showmanship and not for combat purposes...

[neilhytholt]

Fu-Pow,

Maybe I was a bit universalist in what I said...but I know exactly what you are talking about. I see the guys wearing the crazy robes and getups, etc, and pretending to be Chinese (that Asia-phile issue is a whole other thread) or what they think is Chinese.
I suppose if that is what they want and they understand it is showmanship and not for combat purposes...

Well, they need to be safer in terms of diseases at tournaments for sparring. In pro matches they test the combatants for diseases, but not sparring tournaments.

It would be a good start if they'd have disposable single use covers for gloves and foot gear.

[Fu-Pow]

Fu-Pow,

Maybe I was a bit universalist in what I said...but I know exactly what you are talking about. I see the guys wearing the crazy robes and getups, etc, and pretending to be Chinese (that Asia-phile issue is a whole other thread) or what they think is Chinese.
I suppose if that is what they want and they understand it is showmanship and not for combat purposes...


It would be fine if that's what they thought but I think they seriously delude themselves into thinking that they are "too deadly" to use their skills or that sparring is somehow beneath them.

Quite frankly I'm at the point if I go to tournament I wouldn't even do forms competition. It's a laughable exercise. I've often been "judged" by karate guys way younger than me. It's like having a underage diving judge judging the gymnastic competition at the olympics.

Lol at the asiaphile issue. You're right that's a whole other thread. It'd be like if a bunch of asian dudes showed up at an SCA convention and started wearing medieval armor and speaking with a english accent. Who knows...maybe that's not so far fetched.

Just to be fair there is all kind of delusion in the martial arts, its not just the "forms warriors." There is delusion in MMA too, the delusion that sport H2H=street H2H for example.

[MasterKiller]

I think that there is a crowd within the kung fu community that bears a striking resemblance to the SCA people. Same mindset, different culture...one west the other east.

You know the type I'm talking about. They show up at tournaments in there full Chinese middle ages regalia. They compete the hell out of the forms competition.

Sparring starts......*crickets chirping*...hey where'd everyone go? They looked so tough in there silk jammies with their old school weapons.


FP

I was cracking up at Taiji Legacy last year because one of the spectators was walking around with a Chinese flute strapped to his back.

KUng Fu tournaments are like a mix between comic book conventions, LARP, and fight nights.

[PangQuan]

i remember a tourney i went to with some friends. one of my friends was performing his kwan dao set for a few judges, he messed up in the middle and just freestyled the rest of the form. completely made up.

he got a perfect score......:rolleyes:

took the 2nd place under another friend who got first for doing a dao set. which he screwed up on and made up too.

both routines were new to each guy but they decided to do them anyway.


they took 1st and second which i thought was totally funny.

but it goes to show you, forms comps dont really mean much

[neilhytholt]

It would be fine if that's what they thought but I think they seriously delude themselves into thinking that they are "too deadly" to use their skills or that sparring is somehow beneath them.


Sparring at tournaments just isn't hygienic. Probably in most classes it's not hygienic either. And with big puffy gloves there's not much point anyway.


Lol at the asiaphile issue. You're right that's a whole other thread. It'd be like if a bunch of asian dudes showed up at an SCA convention and started wearing medieval armor and speaking with a english accent. Who knows...maybe that's not so far fetched.

They DO go to SCA conventions. I've only been to a couple that I happened across by accident at colleges, but there were Asian guys with fake accents and there were Asian guys with Mongolian style clothes and non-Asians with Chinese style clothes.

Those SCA guys when they spar with their weapons they DO go hard. They even break their armor and their weapons a lot of the time, at least the ones I went to. Of course some people build their own armor and use sparring weapons.

[PangQuan]

the SCA stuff goes both ways.

you will find people who are simply interested in midevil style fighting and need an outlet to get their game on.

then you get the people who want to live in a fantasy land and pretend they are knights.

same with kungfu.....or anything else for that matter.



It takes all kinds.

[neilhytholt]

the SCA stuff goes both ways.

you will find people who are simply interested in midevil style fighting and need an outlet to get their game on.

then you get the people who want to live in a fantasy land and pretend they are knights.

same with kungfu.....or anything else for that matter.

It takes all kinds.

SCA is not just about dressing up as a warrior and stuff. They also have people who dress up as bartenders, barmaids, wenches, you name it.

A girl I met once said she went to them and played a wench because she got free drinks and free sex ... I told her you're supposed to get paid if you're a wench but she said she got paid in beer.

[Becca]

... If you did not understand my thread, you could has asked.No he couldn't. that would take all the point out of his trolling.:rolleyes:

[neilhytholt]

No he couldn't. that would take all the point out of his trolling.:rolleyes:

Trolling. That's a blatant ad hominem attack.

Fact is, he didn't make a strong point. He's didn't even talk about what he meant by 'up to date'.

[Oso]

Ummm Oso, we might want to rethink your strategy.:D


LMAO...I reckon so. I'll leave it as typed and will remember to not post until after I finish the first cup of coffee. :D

[Oso]

SCA is not just about dressing up as a warrior and stuff. They also have people who dress up as bartenders, barmaids, wenches, you name it.

A girl I met once said she went to them and played a wench because she got free drinks and free sex ... I told her you're supposed to get paid if you're a wench but she said she got paid in beer.


that's why 'round here it's better known as the Society for Consenting Adults.

[PangQuan]

SCA is not just about dressing up as a warrior and stuff. They also have people who dress up as bartenders, barmaids, wenches, you name it.

A girl I met once said she went to them and played a wench because she got free drinks and free sex ... I told her you're supposed to get paid if you're a wench but she said she got paid in beer.

maybe i should go to one and tell them im a barbarian and i have come to Crush them, see them driven before me and hear the lementations of their women.

[Oso]

you can't do that in SCA.

back in 87-88 I had a couple friends of mine who got in to it and they were telling me about it...I was like, cool, drinking, wenching and when they were telling me about how the US is split up in to like 5 kingdoms and then further into baronies and such I asked what happened when someone decide to yell 'the king is a fink!'

they said you couldn't do that, everyone had to be nice and such and you'd be kicked out....

okay - 5 kingdoms, baronies and dukedoms and such...and no wars?!?!?

so I said no thanks

[neilhytholt]

you can't do that in SCA.

back in 87-88 I had a couple friends of mine who got in to it and they were telling me about it...I was like, cool, drinking, wenching and when they were telling me about how the US is split up in to like 5 kingdoms and then further into baronies and such I asked what happened when someone decide to yell 'the king is a fink!'

they said you couldn't do that, everyone had to be nice and such and you'd be kicked out....

okay - 5 kingdoms, baronies and dukedoms and such...and no wars?!?!?

so I said no thanks

I was researching it around here a while back because I was looking for someplace for weapons sparring and they pretty much are the only place around.

There are at least a few different groups, not just SCA. So you could I guess start your own group, and compete for members. But yeah, I don't think they have wars and stuff.

[PangQuan]

lets start our own kingdom!!!!!

we can declare supremacy among all and force the war and or obedience!

[Oso]

i'm down...but who gets to be king?























it's good to be the king
















:D





or, i guess we'd be playing 'emperor' since we'd be all chinesey and shiat



but, 'it's good to be the emperor' just doesn't have a ring to it


somebody let us know what is sounds like in mandarin or cantonese....

[neilhytholt]

i'm down...but who gets to be king?

Supposedly in SCA they fight for it. With rattan weapons. The Medieval version of Sanda. LOL

[neilhytholt]

Anyways, I shouldn't have attacked Flying Monkey's point here. Sorry about that.

I'd say that the way a lot of teachers teach their classes by doing forms and not a lot of applications is like science vs. applied science (engineering), but even in science they do experiments.

Maybe you could use the analogy of dogma vs. science, like because some master said do the form this way you must do it that way.

[Royal Dragon]

*I* Would be Emperor of course...I am the one who knows the Emperor's style after all!!


They don't call me *Royal* Dragon for nutt'n Ya know!!! :D

[Royal Dragon]

So, since the founder of my art was a warlord who just coincidentally conquered *Five* waring states, I think it's best to just let me take charge here.

All you guys can be my Generals though, and your students are your troops.


So, as your new Emperor first thing is I want to know everything I can about the subjects we are about to conquer.

[Royal Dragon]

I'd say that the way a lot of teachers teach their classes by doing forms and not a lot of applications is like science vs. applied science (engineering), but even in science they do experiments.

Reply]
You bring up a good point. Modern Kung Fu just does experiments, like in school. You don't get good untill you leave school, and enter the actual work force where you apply your science daily.