Notes from Feng Zhiquiangs Seminar

[Fu-Pow]

Check it out lots of great stuff from an authority on Chen Taiji.

http://www.silkreeler.com/articles/wrkshp_trans.shtml

Fu-Pow
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[RAF]

Excellent. ;)

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Feng is a great master, of that there is no doubt, however I'm disappointed to see him say something like "Qi can leak out from the perenium." There is just no basis in Chinese medicine for this statement. Now we are going to see a whole generation of Chen stylists reiterating this fallacy and justifying to themselves that its ok to be lazy and not go deep into the legs.

Lets add a little water to Taijiquan, apparently its not diluted enough.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[Fu-Pow]

Hmmm...not sure what he meant by that. I think that the idea is that going to low to early can be damaging to the body. Also, low does not necessarily mean better. I think in the progression it goes middle height stance is easiest, low stance is harder and high stance is the hardest. So maybe he is giving higher level practioners something to aspire to other than just to see who can do the stances the lowest. Just speculating. :confused:

Fu-Pow
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[RAF]

Low stances are really pushed sometimes too fast. What I liked about his article was driving home the point of being relaxed.

Relaxed, consistent, properly aligned postures will eventually result in lower (maybe not the lowest but the safest) postures. The key is relaxed and consistent and by consistent, it may take two, three or four years. I think the alignment is very important and you need a good teacher to check this.

I once knew a teacher who pushed stretching, stretching and more stretching in order to achieve low postures. It never worked. Most of his students were injured with torn muscles and they were always tense. When they played the forms they popped back up into high stances and their fajing looked rubbery or completely stiff.

Does Feng Zhiqiang's training emphasize holding stances (relaxed)? His ideas have seem to strike a note. Regarding the leaking of qi, I am just letting that one pass. I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water

[Fu-Pow]

One thing that struck me in his seminar was that he was always moving, even when doing wuji stance.

Apparently, Taiji doesn't really have any static postures, they may look static but the dantien is always moving a little bit. If you are holding your wuji stance like a high horse stance then it is no good. I've noticed in my wuji training that if I just hold my stance statically my calves get really stiff. This is avoided if I move even slightly side to side, expanding and contracting. Again, just my own observation and speculation.

I think lower stances give you a lower center of gravity and a slight advantage in intermediate development. But perhaps at higher levels you have such a high level of control over your body that you can manipulate your opponent without sinking. Hmmm......

And as for stretching, it doesn't seem to me to very important for Taiji. Loosening up your joints perhaps. The movement is a gentle internal spiraling. In external arts, like CLF, it seems more important with more stress put on the joints and more jumping around.

Fu-Pow
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[Nexus]

Often in wuji you will rock back and forth. Taiji is said to posses the 10/90 rule where 10% you see while a practitioner is doing forms/movements and the other 90% of what is actually going on is internal. So when you watch some master doing this awesome flow of movements and how graceful etc etc it all seems, keep in mind that 90% of what they are doing is not visible to the eye. We learn this to be the case though from our own practices and experience.

- Nexus

[bamboo_ leaf]

“I think lower stances give you a lower center of gravity and a slight advantage in intermediate development. But perhaps at higher levels you have such a high level of control over your body that you can manipulate your opponent without sinking. Hmmm......’ if you really understand Shen, YI, CHI you can do what your talking about.

The key is to be Sung ” means more then relaxed” and have good structure / alignment. Someone mentioned diluted TC. How?

Relax, alignment and mind. The idea of low stances is to teach another way of supporting the body other then what you’re used to. Other wise why not just go out and do some heavy squats with a bunch of wt. Low stance high stance, big frame small frame. why! will the real TC please stand up!

Sink your mind this is key, this is what makes your root. Really relax your body.

I liked the article some important points that I thought he bought out was the no pain no gain idea, meaning that how can you really relax if your legs are tight. If you’re depending on structure for your peng how is this different then sholin. "Force comes from the bones chin from the sinews".
what dose this mean to you?

Ithink the deeper is better leads to a type of idea that will not lead you to finding TC. I have seen adds about people putting rice grains on their stomachs and seeing who could pop them up the ****hest. The deep stance thing is the same way. Is this correct?

TC is very hard to really do, but I think it’s not hard in the way that most people think. To really relax and keep this throughout all your postures. No tension, don’t use force.

good aritcal :)
enjoy reading the many ideas presented here,
it seems we have some differnt understandings.
or maybe the same said in differnt ways.

if your in the SF area e-mail maybe we can talk drink tea.

bamboo leaf

[Kumkuat]

I think low stances are for the high intermediate to advance level people. I have no idea how you can go into a low stance completly aligned and relaxed. I can barely hold it for a minute on a high stance.

[wujidude]

"Hu was a master of five arts. He was a master of Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, and Chinese Medicine as well as martial arts. When he meditates, I have seen him levitate for about a foot off the ground."

I wonder if Feng meant that he literally saw Hu floating a foot off the ground. Defying gravity like that would take a considerable amount of skill, I would think.

Or perhaps he meant something along the lines of what the Transcendental Meditation types teach, hopping a foot into the air while sitting cross-legged and calling that levitation. That would show definite development of the dantien and taiji's "springy" energy.

Difficult to say what Feng meant without knowing Mandarin and being there at the time of his talk, or else having a chance to query Feng directly about it. I only raise this because I strongly believe that skill in taijiquan and other martial arts can be acquired without believing in magic.

[Mojo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wujidude:
" When he meditates, I have seen him levitate for about a foot off the ground."
[/quote]

It's good to know I'm not the only one who does this.

..............................
The Dude: Fortunately, I'm adhering to a pretty strict, uh, drug, uh, regimen to keep my mind, you know, uh, limber.

[Fu-Pow]

My experience is that Chinese people like to tell "stories" especially in regards to their teachers. There is a whole cultural context this statement was made in that we may not be aware of. In other words, I don't believe master Hu could levitate. I do however believe the story about Feng and students being unable to pick up Master Hu from the ground. This seems more plausible as it doesn't violate any laws of physics.

Fu-Pow
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[Mojo]

Fu-Pow
Since we do not, in fact, know ALL the laws of physics, nor all the ways in which 'chi' may effect the physical world, your claim is faulty.
Levitation may indeed be possible and may not violate the laws of physics once we gain a deeper understanding of these laws.
Am I making mself clear ? :confused:

By the way, my instructor has seen his instructor levitate off the ground durring meditation, as has a number of his other students.

Having said all that, I think it is important to treat a subject like this with skepticism, don't believe anything until you have personally experienced it.

..............................
The Dude: Fortunately, I'm adhering to a pretty strict, uh, drug, uh, regimen to keep my mind, you know, uh, limber.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

The reason that I referred to dilution is that Feng's teacher was an advocate for both low stances and powerful expressions of energy. If high frame is your style then thats great, but it wasn't the style of Feng's teacher. Now many people who are Chen stylists in the Hunyuan Xinyi Chen of Feng will train their Chen in the upper basin and never explore the lower basin. Keep in mind that before Yang Chenfu even the Yang style was trained "under the table" by the young sons of Yang Luchan.

I'm a student of Eric Tuttle who is Ma Hong's disciple (an recognized lineage representative and inner door student of Ma Hong). Ma Hong was a disciple of Chen Zhaokui, Chen Fake's son (Chen Fake was Feng's Chen teacher). Ma Hong says that Chen Zhaokui taught that lower was better and gives many clear reasons why this is the correct way to practice Chen style. Certainly correct for the Chen Fake line, if not the line from his grandfather Chen Changxing.

If you are not able to go low and stay connected, then why not train to do so?

I've trained in Yang Chengfu's Yang style and would be inappropriate to go as low as Chen demands in that form. Middle to upper basin matches that style. Since he origionally comes from a lower basin tradition I just have to wonder where Feng is coming from with those statements now?

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[Fu-Pow]

Coming from 70 years of experience.

Fu-Pow
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[Kevin Wallbridge]

70 years of one man's experience is somehow heavier than 350 years of many other master's experience? We are talking about a tested system, not something that arose after the revolution.

What bothers me most is that the justification he uses is not one of experience, its spurious medicine. If Qi leaks out the perineum when you open the groin then you'd better better keep defication down to a minimum. Keep in mind the Chinese medicine has been tested for over 2500 years, so where is he coming from with this concept?

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> 70 years of one man's experience is somehow heavier than 350 years of many other master's experience? We are talking about a tested system, not something that arose after the revolution. [/quote]

Do you know anyone better at Chen Taiji than Master Feng? Would anyone dare to touch hands with him? Remember Feng was the one that brought Chen Taiji back to Chen village after the communists banned it. Remember that master Feng was the one who took on any challenger to the Chen Taiji name. Don't be an idiot.

Fu-Pow
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[patriot]

It is amazing to find such an absolute authority on Chiense medicine and Qi gong here.

Yes, it is well known that one should do his business before QiGong practice and should not defecate or urinate during or immediately after Qi Gong practice so as not to lose qi. Ask any competent teacher.

It seems one can be an instant "disciple" nowadays by arranging workshops and seminars to make money for one's master.
Do you or Mr. Tuttle speak Chinese? Mr. Ma Hong doesn't speak Enlgish for sure.

[patriot]

It should be noted that Feng was the designated training partner of Chen Zhaokui by Chen Fake. Chen Zhaokui has been documented to state publicly that Feng was the best amongst Chen Fakes's disciples.

Note also that Ma Hong is one generation below Feng. In Ma Hong's book on Chen Style Taiji Principles based on teachings by Chen Zhaokui, he has asked Feng to write a Preface out of respect and his close association with Chen Zhaokui.

By all accounts, Kevin, you are at least 3 generations below Feng. So why don'you show more respect as your Grandmaster Ma Hong did?

[RAF]

You guys are being a bit hard on each other. Fu-Pow, I really enjoyed and am glad you posted the material. However, its a good bet that Chen Fake never trained in the way suggested by Feng Zhiqiang. And perhaps this is an improvement.

However, I wonder how Chen Fake would have felt if Feng Zhiqiang had approached him and said here are the changes I am going to make regarding the Chen family taijiquan.

If you follow the logic of Patriot's position, then Feng Zhiqiang would never have dared change the training material of Chen Fake. We all have a right to question changes and material regardless of our level of skill (doesn't mean anyone will necessarily accept the changes. To question changes is not a bad thing that is what the boards here seem best at)

There is probably a number of ways to reach the same point.

What I don't quite understand is if the training methods were good enough for Chen Fake then why would they not be good enough to pass on to future generations. They were obviously good enough for Feng Zhiqiang for many, many years since he reached such a high level of skill by them. I am open minded to listen and try to follow where Feng Zhiqiang is going but it also doesn't mean I will necessarily throw out what I have learned from traditional training. I would love to hear his logic for the change, no arguments intended. Maybe he really is on to something, only time will tell.

Ma Hong is a pretty heavy hitter. I competed with one of his disciples in China (a professor of martial arts in Jiangsu). His students are pretty sharp too. Although the flavor of our forms are different, many of our training is similar. I wouldn't want to kick Ma Hong too hard. A man has got to make a living and his tapes are good if you can understand Chinese.

One further question. If Chen Fake had forms for public consumption and other training for private consumption, should we expect any less from Feng Zhiqiang? Perhaps we are only getting some of the basic ideas of Feng Zhiqiang in the public and maybe there is no contradiction between the two types of training methods. Public v. private teaching is NOT a bad thing. Not everyone wants to go into the depths of a system and many just want some of the health benefits along with a scant of self defense. Not everyone wants to become a Chen Fake or Feng Zhiqiang and maybe this is what he has recognized. Self promotion and developing one's own system is not always such a bad deal, especially if you have paid your dues.