long range instinct shooting

[Black Jack II]

For those that shoot, here is a nice little example of extreme accuracy using point shooting methods down range and by down range I mean all the way to 100 freakin yards using no sighted methods.

There is a second part on this page where they use it in a high speed fashion using double taps and so forth which is also excellent. DRM calls his method fist-fire but point shooting has been around since the OSS in World War Two to help boost a soliders ability to fight at very short range under low light and other non-prime conditions.

There are a number of different methods within point shooting, spanning from traditional FSA material to the Army Quick-Fire program to the system developed by Lucky" McDaniels and taught in the US Army in the mid sixties called the "Quick Kill" method using Daisy BB air rifles with no sights.

http://www.downrange.tv/player.htm?bcpid=452320104&bclid=459256134&bctid=715980776

[xcakid]

I went to a 3 gun comp last year where they had pistol targets out to 50yds. :eek: with a no shoot zone on part of the target. Double taps need to score. Talk about a beyotch course of fire.

I then started reading up on quick target acquisitions for long ranges with pistols. Seems theres is not that much difference as for short ranges. Basically focusing on front sight. Rather than trying to get a perfect sight picture. Proper presentation of the weapon will always align you properly. So if front sight covers target you are pretty much gonna hit a torso sized target. Works for me 10yds and in. However, we start shooting at plate target, then that's another story.

Now I guess the only factor is wind if you are talking about 100yds+ as well as bullet weight and twist rate. 1MOA variance will throw you way off at 100yds. I shoot mainly .223's so I pretty got used to accounting for bullet drop and how the bullet reacts to wind. I can hit a torso sized target at 100yds using the point and shoot method. I won't have a tight group or hit the certain quadrant I want to hit, but I will hit the target maybe close to 70-80% of the time.

I took a tactical rifle course a few years back where we had to shoot pop up targets ranging from 50-150yds out. Shooting from a low ready standing position. I was using a red dot sight on my AR so target acquisition was a bit faster, but it taught me to trust my instincts and my reflexes. I pretty much had very little adjustment when I presented the weapon. That was actually my first introduction to point and shoot drilling.

I compete, or should I say use to compete since I have not done it in the past year, IPSC and IDPA. Accuracy is bad, meaning, I do not get tight grouping in my double taps. My second one is always low. Which means I am yanking the trigger. However, I have speed and agility so I score fairly well. I'm also competing in the amateur divisions so........ Most guys fumble mag changes. Which make me confident enough that in a real life altercation, I will at least hit the person I mean to hit. I just may not hit them in the spot I want to hit them.

So I always drill proper presentation of the weapon from the holster. Even if I am just at home. I would do it maybe 20-50X. Cause every class I have taken they always said that proper presentation and you will always have the muzzle at your target. Still use the weaver stance though, which everyone says is not proper alignment. However the isociles(sp?) stance just feel weaird to me. Most pro competitors do use isociles so there must me some truth in that.





BTW, I will have to take a look at that link when I get home. I am at work and its blocked labled as "weapons/violence" site. :rolleyes:

[xcakid]

Oh BTW, I never aim at moving target. I typically just lead it with the muzzle of my weapon and fire. I hit them 50-50. Not bad if I do say so my self. So I guess, that another form instinctive shooting?

[Black Jack II]

Regarding stances, such as the modern iscociles or weaver position.

A lot has been researched to show that people under stress assume shooting or fighting stances that are contrary to formal training. Point Shooting instead takes advantage of these natural physiological reactions of the human body, and is thus based on fighting stances that the you will automtically assume when threatened.

Kinda like the flinch response in regards to empty hand combatives.

Whats nice abou this vid in specific is the excellent accuracy he gets off with non-sighted methods at that range, even though the system itself was made for close range, high stress work.

[xcakid]

Regarding stances, such as the modern iscociles or weaver position.

A lot has been researched to show that people under stress assume shooting or fighting stances that are contrary to formal training. Point Shooting instead takes advantage of these natural physiological reactions of the human body, and is thus based on fighting stances that the you will automtically assume when threatened.



True. Weaver has always been comfortable for me. I revert to it in open hand fighting as in the "boxing stance" and of course when shooting rifles. That's why I just practice my presentations from there. A lot of instructors frown upon it. Blackwater seems to teach both though. :confused:

Will have to see the site when I get home tonight.

[neilhytholt]

Don't get me wrong here. He's a great shooter, but he's still sighting the thing.

It's a lot harder to shoot from the hip or shoot quickly without the gun being right in front of the eyes.

[Oso]

Don't get me wrong here. He's a great shooter, but he's still sighting the thing.

It's a lot harder to shoot from the hip or shoot quickly without the gun being right in front of the eyes.


too many movies, dude. Besides, even in the movies, shooting from the hip is still usually <12 yards.

he's a great shot.



when I use to train with my PT92, all I did was set up pieces of notebook paper and shoot singles and double taps from 3, 7 and 12 yards. I got to where I could put 11-13 of them on the paper all the time w/ double taps.


i figured that was reasonable enough. did the same with my Star 9mm years later but was much worse at 12 yards with it...much shorter barrel.

one of these day's I'll have the money to buy my SOCOM II and my Smith M&P



http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=29

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=45932&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15711&isFirearm=Y

[Black Jack II]

What this guy is doing, his fire fist method seems to be index & point shooting, the term point shooting means different aspects to different people, there are a lot of sub outlooks on this method. The first part of the vid is just a showcase of none-sighted fire on much longer range than what the method is really used for.

The basics of point shooting/instinct shooting were developed for very close range, often just 5 yards or less. To be used in realistic bad conditions, low light, scared, under stress. In real gun fights just like in actual empty hand confrontations people often assume reactions that are contary to there formal training.

This is were point shooting comes in, to help take advantage of your bodies natural physiological reactions under stress, when aimed fire can not be accessed.

Yes, they also fire from the hip, its part of the training and not just the punch out as seen on the first vid.

[neilhytholt]

Yes, they also fire from the hip, its part of the training and not just the punch out as seen on the first vid.

Firing from the hip I think is the hardest. Pulling it out and shooting without taking the time to sight is hard too, but not as hard as from the hip.

That's something I used to do every time I went to the pistol range is at the end of the session, I set a target at intervals spaced back, and draw and fire as fast as possible without sighting with the Baby Glock. Not from the hip, but just straight forward.

That seems like the most likely scenario if somebody gets the drop on you and you just have to go for it, assuming they're in front of you and there's no cover. (Of course you probably want to drop down but I can't do that at the local range).

The last time I tried I got only 4/9 shots in the circle as far back as it would go, which wasn't very far -- I think 20 meters.

I didn't like that, so I thought I'd do it again but I guess I was tired because I didn't control the recoil and it went up and shot the bracket holding the target and the target fell off. Since then they always look at me kindof funny.

[xcakid]

OK Finally saw the video. He is pretty much using the technique most Pro IDPA and IPSC shooter use and what I have originally posted. That is proper presentation of the weapon for alignment. Covering the traget with muzzle and firing. No need for sights. Also if you notice during the 100yds shooting, he would pull the gun back and re-present it. That way he gets proper alignment again. He is still aiming the weapon, just not in a conventional way.

I know the technique. Just can't do it past 10yds and be that accurate though with a pistol. :D A carbine....maybe out to 50-75yds. 100yds plus, I will not be 100%

That guy is pretty impressive.

[Black Jack II]

His whole system seems to be based on body indexing and not just the older FSA style point shotting methods. He lines up his body with the target without twisting the hip and line's the gun up underneath the dominant eye so that it indexes on the sweet spot.

He seems to call it index and point shooting. In some older war-time point shooting methods you don't drop down after every shot but incorporate a "swing" in the arm and centerline of the body for multiple attackers in a short range enviroment, using a one-handed/convulsive grip and crouched body position.

Though to be honest he is only dropping the gun down here for realignment in the long distance part of the vid.

[xcakid]

I sometimes practice a drill at home that covers much of what this guy is doing. I have a Glock 19 I use for my concealed carry. It has a LaserMax laser on it. So I put on my jeans and my IWB holster with weapon. I would then pick a target in the living from the kitchen. Like say pic frame or clock on the wall. I would draw, then I would activate laser and see if I hit my intended target with the laser. I do pretty well with this. :D I would also sometime choose multible targets. So I would draw, activate laser turn it off, engage next target, turn on laser then off, then engage next, etc. I bet my neighbors that can see me through the window thinks I'm crazy. :D

Thank goodness I live in TX and guns here is a non-issue.

[neilhytholt]

Thank goodness I live in TX and guns here is a non-issue.

Try Seattle. Suicide city, evidently.

I was talking to some guys at work when we went out to lunch about how the shooting range/gun shop doesn't allow people to rent guns there anymore unless they bring their own in because they had a bunch of people rent guns and then kill themselves on the range a couple years back.

It was like "What!!! You shoot guns??? What are you, the Green River Killer? (Green River Killer is this guy who killed like 50+ people).

People were giving me bad looks for over a month, and a couple of guys wouldn't go to lunch anymore.

Then, this guy I hardly met out of the blue from another floor asks me out to lunch with a couple of his friends. Turns out they're the hunting group. They're telling me about all their bow conquests, fishing trips up in Alaska and stuff. I'm trying to explain to them I don't actually hunt, but I just give up and play along ...

[xcakid]

Try Seattle. Suicide city, evidently.

I was talking to some guys at work when we went out to lunch about how the shooting range/gun shop doesn't allow people to rent guns there anymore unless they bring their own in because they had a bunch of people rent guns and then kill themselves on the range a couple years back.




Happens here too. Not too long ago at the DFW Gun range someone did that. Rented a handgun and some ammo. Started shooting and just turned the gun on themself. Happened quite a bit when I lived in CA. Specially during the holidays. Really sad. :(

Quite a few folks I work with shoot on a regular basis. Actually when I first moved to TX, I did not know a soul. I found an IDPA shooting comp and started shooting 1-2X a month and met people there. Folks at the first company I worked for, found out. Matter of fact I saw the SVP of my dept at a gunshow buying a rifle. There would be a group of us that would sometimes go after work and shoot.

The culture and outlook on firearms here in TX are really different.

[neilhytholt]

The culture and outlook on firearms here in TX are really different.

Well, Seattle is a pretty liberal city, to say the least. Get out of the city and suburbs, and it's another story, it's very conservative, lots of guys with trucks with gun racks.

Which is what you have to do to find a long gun range. Actually, I don't even know where one is around here. Supposedly there was one in the suburbs a while back but they closed it down because it made too much noise.

[Shaolinlueb]

i was shooting soda cans from more then half a football field away with no site with an ak-47. is that good?