chinese strength training

[northernArts]

I'm looking for books or DVDs that explain how to train with stone / iron locks (http://www.atomicathletic.com/store/category.aspx?categoryID=181) & stone balls (http://www.atomicathletic.com/store/category.aspx?categoryID=209).

Matt Furey has a workshop (http://www.shaolinstrengthtraining.com) coming up which will cover these methods but I don't have the 1400 USD to attend. Also I would rather just get a book or tape/DVD.


I'm also wondering if anyone has tried the stone warrior (http://www.martialartsmart.net/dvdyvs341.html) DVD. Did you like it? Is it worthwhile?

[Dale Dugas]

Keen markets the set that Green Dragon made infamous. He is a scawny looking man who seems to not have much connection.

I would recommend Sifu Steve Hamp who has been trained in all variety of Chinese strength development exercises by GM Gene L. Chicoine.

Sifu Hamp's website is http://www.noweightsworkout.com

He has reasonable tapes and ebooks as well as an online free forum to post questions that he answers himself.

No offence to MF, but he charges out the wazoo for everything he sells.

Take a look and stay clear of Keen he is associated with Jim Lacy of 18 Daoist Palms and that man is a total nutter.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[IronFist]

Crazy training methods are cool and all, but are they the most effective?

[Vasquez]

Crazy training methods are cool and all, but are they the most effective?

well oush ups is the tradiional way to gert punching power

[northernArts]

...Take a look and stay clear of Keen he is associated with Jim Lacy of 18 Daoist Palms and that man is a total nutter.

OK thanks. I wasn't aware of the Lacy connection - I don't want to associate myself in any way with his "organization." :mad:

I'll check out the link you provided.

[Dale Dugas]

Keen is a "lohan" in Lacys made up fu. Total nutter and anyone who listens to him is also insane as well as maladjusted.

Sifu Hamp is top notch and a great teacher.

Check him out.

In Boston,


Dale Dugas

[northernArts]

Thanks again Dale, Sifu Hamp's site (http://www.noweightsworkout.com) looks excellent.

Ok I'm still wondering if anyone knows of any books or DVDs that show how to train with stone / iron locks (http://www.atomicathletic.com/store/category.aspx?categoryID=181).

I suppose I could use them as kettlebells but I've done KBs and although I love them I'm looking for a change. I'm wondering how the chinese used them but can't seem to find much info.

[mickey]

Greetings,

A man with a penchant for nostalgia. I must help thee....


I can describe some exercises that I have seen with the blocks.

-Swinging upward from a horse stance.

-Punching with stances

-Tossing in the air and catching (CAREFUL!!!) Can be done with a partner (CAREFUL!!!).

-One Arm Pushups with other arm vertical, holding the lock above(saw HaiDeng's student do this in a documentary).

Kettle bell exercises can also be used. The block appears to offer more stability. Looks like it could be good for developing good wrist strength.


mickey

[mickey]

gosh,

Did I kill this thread too?

mickey

[K.Brazier]

I didn't realize that these iron locks were such a big ticket item.
I was taught by my shifu, Shi Zhengzhong, only throwing methods.
Behind the back and shoulders are some of the scarrier, but first you learn the bag throws which are safer.

I'll be moving back to Tampa end of November same place as Furey. I usually taught the rock lock for free I can't imagine how can make it so exiting to get 1500us$ for that.

[northernArts]

Greetings,
A man with a penchant for nostalgia. I must help thee....

I can describe some exercises that I have seen with the blocks.

-Swinging upward from a horse stance.

-Punching with stances

-Tossing in the air and catching (CAREFUL!!!) Can be done with a partner (CAREFUL!!!).

-One Arm Pushups with other arm vertical, holding the lock above(saw HaiDeng's student do this in a documentary).

Kettle bell exercises can also be used. The block appears to offer more stability. Looks like it could be good for developing good wrist strength.
mickey

mickey thanks a lot :) I used to throw and catch a single kettlebell, and Jeff Martone has two DVDs on this: Hand-to-Hand Kettlebell Drills: Xplosive Strength & Stamina for the Combat Athlete (http://www.dragondoor.com/v112.html?l=3120494) & H2H II: Harder. Faster. Stronger (http://www.dragondoor.com/dv019.html?l=3120494)
I remember the first DVD had many challenging exercises in it.

I didn't realize that these iron locks were such a big ticket item.
I was taught by my shifu, Shi Zhengzhong, only throwing methods.
Behind the back and shoulders are some of the scarrier, but first you learn the bag throws which are safer.

I'll be moving back to Tampa end of November same place as Furey. I usually taught the rock lock for free I can't imagine how can make it so exiting to get 1500us$ for that.
I hear ya. Matt Furey includes a lot of things in the seminar that I personally couldn't care less about, if it was just rock locks & stone balls for 400 USD I would go.

[IronFist]

I used to be into studying all the secret Chinese training methods, but the reality is that if you want to develop strength for fighting or anything else you're better off training squat, deadlift, bench press, pullups, kettlebells and running than you are with any of this secret iron rocks, secret Chinese strength sets like Stone Warrior (which I did for about a year so I'm not just talking out of my ass), or any other "secret" kung fu training methods that you see in movies or in obscure books. Yes, there is a coolness factor to it, in that you're training in an ancient way that few other people are, but there's also the reality factor to it that your training isn't as effective as it could be.

Now I'll get nailed by the trolls and the TMA purists so I'll sit back and if Toby or Ford or anyone wants to jump that's fine.

Or I could just anticipate the questions and remarks, but I'm not in the mood to do that. I just want to add that I'm talking about power development and NOT about skill development, so no "such and such exercise won't teach you how to punch better," because neither will punching with stone locks in your hands or anything that you're thinking of, either.

[hazhardy]

I used to be into studying all the secret Chinese training methods, but the reality is that if you want to develop strength for fighting or anything else you're better off training squat, deadlift, bench press, pullups, kettlebells and running than you are with any of this secret iron rocks, secret Chinese strength sets like Stone Warrior (which I did for about a year so I'm not just talking out of my ass), or any other "secret" kung fu training methods that you see in movies or in obscure books. Yes, there is a coolness factor to it, in that you're training in an ancient way that few other people are, but there's also the reality factor to it that your training isn't as effective as it could be.



'tis a funkin' good point there, but i spose the ''coolness'' is what just keeps draggin' 'em in.
hza

[Dale Dugas]

Rumor has it that John Allen made Stone Warrior up from other programs that he had learned. No one before has every heard of such a program, though most of us had heard of iron wire, iron vest, iron palm, etc...

Muscle Restructure along with iron vest make up some serious strength training as well as bodyweight exercises.

But you have to see what works for you and what you want out of it.

You need to work your material with the strength you are building. Hopefully along the lines of what you want to pull off against someone else.

I dont care how big I am, how cool something is or isnt(thats totally inane to training), or esoteric names or whatnot. The bottom line is, does this material help me gain better health, more strength and further my training in a positive manner.

If it doesnt then its a total waste of time and effort and none of us can afford that these days.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[northernArts]

OK thanks everyone for your advice. After careful thought I've decided to use the blockweights / stone locks as kettlebells and go back to my kettlebell routines.

I've ordered some DVDs so I can get exposed to some different KB exercises; in the past I just used Pavel's DVD.

Stephen Maxwell's Cruel and Unusual Kettlebell Exercises for Real Men (http://www.dragondoor.com/v109.html?l=3127426) Mahler's Aggressive Strength (http://www.dragondoor.com/dv022.html?l=3127426) Kettlebell Basics for Strength Coaches and Personal Trainers
(A two-Volume DVD set) (http://www.dragondoor.com/dv026.html?l=3127426)

[Dale Dugas]

Steve Cotter is a hsing yi/bagua man who also does KB. Look up his stuff as he goes through alot of training for the kung fu man.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[Ford Prefect]

The funniest thing about this thread is that Chinese Strength Training will probably be the next biggest thing in the professional strength training community such as athletic trainers for professional, high-level collegiate, and olympic athletes. When the Iron Curtain was coming down and major scientists were defecting from Russia, Soviet training revolutionized the way most of our upper-tier athletes are trained.

I can see the same thing happening in China. Once the flow of information starts, we'll start seeing how they train to remain dominant in events like olympic weight lifting, gymnastics, diving, and I wouldn't be surprised if they emerge as forces in wrestling and track events. In 20 years instead of Pavel Tsatsouline, you'll have Hu Flung Pu dumbing down all the super secret Chinese training methods from complex strength-training texts for public consumption.

The funny thing is that is will be firmly based on science and modern training methods like powermetrics, accumulated kinetic energy, and good old weight lifting.

[northernArts]

Steve Cotter is a hsing yi/bagua man who also does KB. Look up his stuff as he goes through alot of training for the kung fu man.

In Boston,
Dale Dugas
I noticed those DVDs but didn't know what to think. Are they really good? What does he do differently?

[IronFist]

What is "Muscle Restructure?"

[IronFist]

The funniest thing about this thread is that Chinese Strength Training will probably be the next biggest thing in the professional strength training community such as athletic trainers for professional, high-level collegiate, and olympic athletes. When the Iron Curtain was coming down and major scientists were defecting from Russia, Soviet training revolutionized the way most of our upper-tier athletes are trained.

I can see the same thing happening in China. Once the flow of information starts, we'll start seeing how they train to remain dominant in events like olympic weight lifting, gymnastics, diving, and I wouldn't be surprised if they emerge as forces in wrestling and track events. In 20 years instead of Pavel Tsatsouline, you'll have Hu Flung Pu dumbing down all the super secret Chinese training methods from complex strength-training texts for public consumption.

The funny thing is that is will be firmly based on science and modern training methods like powermetrics, accumulated kinetic energy, and good old weight lifting.

Yeah, but it won't be long periods of stance training. :D

[SevenStar]

It might be. stance training is great for building leg strength... :D

[Ho Chun]

What is "Muscle Restructure?"


Muscle Restructure, is the set of exercises that the Indian Monk Da Mo, brought to the Shaolin Temple. It's a series of 12 exercises that are perform with full tension. They are awesome.

Hope this helps,

Steve

[Ford Prefect]

Delibandit,

You're mistake lies in thinking that none of us practice or have practiced stance training and are not fully familiar with it. Also, there has been much experiementation and study on stance-training type exercises and their physiological effects on the human body.

[Ford Prefect]

Well, it is for the vast majority of training goals. Strance training has its place in an art and can help build fundemental levels of strength, but anything passed that would better be addressed with other means.

[Ho Chun]

Delibandit,

You're mistake lies in thinking that none of us practice or have practiced stance training and are not fully familiar with it. Also, there has been much experiementation and study on stance-training type exercises and their physiological effects on the human body.


I have to ask...what are the physiological effects on the human body? Is there a website that has this information? I am curious.

Thanks,
Steve

[Samurai Jack]

What is "Muscle Restructure?"

You would know it as the "Muscle / Tendon Change" set from Shaolin.

[Ford Prefect]

Steve,

For people with strength training experience or experience in stance training, it is a very low-level muscular contraction. For those just starting out, it can be mid-level. Imagine when you first started out and had a tough time holding the horse for a minute, or had trouble holding each stance in an 8-stance set for 8 seconds each. For these people, the energy to contract their muscles to remain in the stance comes from the "anaerobic" energy system. This is the same energy system that weight lifters use. The more practiced you become at stance, the more strength you gain, and the higher your anaerobic threshold.

Because of this after a beginner spends a few months of dilligent practice, stance training begins using the aerobic pathways. This is the same pathway used when running a marathon or doing anything steadily over a long duration. While on the surface, this may sound great, it really isn't. Fighting is mostly anaerobic in nature. You want to be doing things that is focussed on that. It's not as if you should abondon stances altogether, but you should recognize their limitations and use other methods to fill the gaps.

Also, the strength gained from stance training is isometric in nature. This means that strength improvements are experience only in the exact angle of flexion and with 15 degrees in each direction. It does not give you strength through a large range of motion.

[ElPietro]

I think it's funny that stance training gets dismissed so easily and that weight lifting is thought to be the modern replacement.

Stance training and weight lifting yield different results. Stance training builds strength, but not like weight lifting. The muscle will get stronger, but not as big as weighted excercise. However, that said, the muscle to mind connection gets stronger (if you do it properly, you have some internal concetration components that are part of that training).

These statements are pretty much based on poor assumptions.

Why do people think that weight training means automatically getting bigger?

Stance training will buid strength only for a little while, and then that's it. The only way to get stronger, is to hold onto something heavy. Do you do this? Maybe, but then you are practicing resistance training now aren't you? If you don't add further resistance, you aren't getting stronger, you are simply increasing your endurance to hold that stance. This is entirely different. But perhaps if that's what you want to achieve then it's a good way to do it. But if you want to get stronger legs, you must train with progressive resistance, not progressive time. If anything, doing this for prolonged periods will actually WEAKEN your legs.

You can easily get stronger without ever gaining a pound of extra weight. A muscle doesn't need to get big to get strong, and there are many methods of getting stronger without getting bigger in the gym.

Also it's a myth that a bigger muscle is less flexible anyway, and unless taken to the extreme, will usually result in the exact opposite.

I'm sure that these "time tested" methods work in their own way, but it's funny to say people dismiss something that is ancient and out-dated, versus those that dismiss something that is modern, and progressive.

In summary, I do not ride a horse to work, I drive my car.

[ElPietro]

Is your internal force that part where you put your hands together, scream "hadoken" and shoot off a fireball at your opponent?

[Samurai Jack]

I just got the book Gene recommended called "72 Consumate Arts Secrets of the Shaolin Temple". Many of the exercises are weight training exercises anyone on this forum would recognize. Those that aren't are simply boxing or conditioning exercises that most athletes would recognize i.e. medicine ball etc. Okay, theres like four weird "magic" ones, but the rest of it's sound.

For example:

Thousand Caddies Flood gate Chi Kung = Progessive Sumo Deadlifts

Pot Lifting Art = Wrist Roller

Lying Tiger Chi Kung = Pushups

Soft Bone Art = Stretching / Yoga

Key Stone Art and Frog Art = Kettle Bell swings

I really liked the Shaolin Master's Comments about deadlifts:

"Outwardly (it appears) that the art is the practice of lifting and supporting weight with the fingers and palms; actually it's the training of the three parts of the body (Legs, torso, and arms). Not only will one astonish all with his great arm strength, but also have great power all over his body."

Shaolin was ahead of it's time. I'll just have to remember this next time an uninformed martial-artist tells me weight training is conter-productive.

[Fu-Pow]

Steve,

For people with strength training experience or experience in stance training, it is a very low-level muscular contraction. For those just starting out, it can be mid-level. Imagine when you first started out and had a tough time holding the horse for a minute, or had trouble holding each stance in an 8-stance set for 8 seconds each. For these people, the energy to contract their muscles to remain in the stance comes from the "anaerobic" energy system. This is the same energy system that weight lifters use. The more practiced you become at stance, the more strength you gain, and the higher your anaerobic threshold.

Because of this after a beginner spends a few months of dilligent practice, stance training begins using the aerobic pathways. This is the same pathway used when running a marathon or doing anything steadily over a long duration. While on the surface, this may sound great, it really isn't. Fighting is mostly anaerobic in nature. You want to be doing things that is focussed on that. It's not as if you should abondon stances altogether, but you should recognize their limitations and use other methods to fill the gaps.

Also, the strength gained from stance training is isometric in nature. This means that strength improvements are experience only in the exact angle of flexion and with 15 degrees in each direction. It does not give you strength through a large range of motion.

It seems that your assumption is that static stance training is an end in and of itself. (Granted for those that brag about the 1/2 hour horse stances it is.)

The fundamental stance training is done so that one has the minimum strength requirement to execute the forms. The forms (at least in the styles that I've practiced) utilize stances that have a wider range of motion than the 15 degress you mentioned. In addition they could be considered plyometric in that you are required to offset the effect of gravity and explode into the next movement.

The other thing to consider about stances is that they are not designed just to make your leg strongs but to train you to utilize only the muscles that are necessary to hold you up.

In an art like Taiji very little muscle is utilized so having "strong" legs is pretty meaningless, unless their strong in the "right way."

My point is that while I believe in weight lifting to some extent (mostly to keep tone in underultiized muscles) if your forms move you vigorously through different levels, jumps, kneeling etc (depends on style) you should get more than enough of a leg workout and you'd be better off to practice your forms rather than practice something less direct to kung fu.

Depends on what your goal is though, master your art or move more weight around.

[Dale Dugas]

I agree with Fu Pao, moving and working with your forms helps develop the routes and strength needed to make them work. I added a weight vest and shot puts in my hands to my Bagua training and I have gotten much stronger as well as being more rooted and able to unroot others who ignore their lower body training. The shots are held(10 pounds) and I work through my palm changes with them slowly. feed all the tension down into my feet and into the ground, where I could call it back up and issue it into an enemy.


In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[Fu-Pow]

I agree with Fu Pao, moving and working with your forms helps develop the routes and strength needed to make them work. I added a weight vest and shot puts in my hands to my Bagua training and I have gotten much stronger as well as being more rooted and able to unroot others who ignore their lower body training. The shots are held(10 pounds) and I work through my palm changes with them slowly. feed all the tension down into my feet and into the ground, where I could call it back up and issue it into an enemy.


In Boston,

Dale Dugas


Yeah I think a weight vest would work great, provided that you already have layed the ground work for proper structural alignment and execution of the techniques in the form.

Just to give you an idea of where I'm coming from this is usually how I train at Gold's Gym. Everything I do is 1 set at about 10-15 reps as fast as I can with good form. I go 2x through the circuit.


Dumbell flyes at 45 degree angle
Assisted Wide Grip Pull Ups
Tricep Cable Pull Downs
Knee Raises
Leaning Horse Stance (side to side with 35 lb weight)
Calf Raises
Burpees with a Push Up at the end
Standing Cable Rows
Cable machine shoulder exercise

I don't take any break between exercises and it takes me about 1/2 hr to go through the circuit twice.

I designed this workout to maximize natural push/pull rotational movement, to be executed from a standing position when possible, to keep my heart rate up to burn fat and to tone muscles that might be neglected through normal training.

I think circuit training is probably the best supplement that you can do to your kung fu training. It keeps you trim and builds strength and endurance without overtraining certain muscles groups that could potentially interfere with your martial arts program :D .

The keys when designing such a program are:

1) Stand up position as much as possible

2) Maximize natural movements

3) Use body weight when possible

4) Move through the circuit quickly to keep your heart rate up.

In addition:

5) Utilize plyometrics in body weight exercises for explosiveness if it is safe to do so.

[Samurai Jack]

I'm incorperating the ideas from the Shaolin manual into my deadlfit routine. I'm going to be performing one low-rep set, five days a week, and throw a little bit of weight on the bar every week. Instead of starting off with a light weight and working up ten pounds a day ala PTP, I'll be starting close to my one rep max and put only 2 1/2 pounds a week on the bar. I'm considering using singles or triples for this routine. Any comments?

[_William_]

A problem I see with your routine is that you are doing the same amount of work, every day, for a week. Then the next week is exactly the same but with 2.5lbs more. Not much room for variation and IMO little adaptation.

I would do something like Steve Justa's routine. I don't remember exactly how it goes, but here is the gist of it.

Start out doing 3 singles. Add a single each day, until you reach a set goal of perhaps 15 singles. Add weight, and start off with 3 singles again, etc.

[Vasquez]

I'm incorperating the ideas from the Shaolin manual into my deadlfit routine. I'm going to be performing one low-rep set, five days a week, and throw a little bit of weight on the bar every week. Instead of starting off with a light weight and working up ten pounds a day ala PTP, I'll be starting close to my one rep max and put only 2 1/2 pounds a week on the bar. I'm considering using singles or triples for this routine. Any comments?


.....like a monk?

[Dale Dugas]

V is rather limited in his vocabulary as well as training experience. Ignore him as the little bug he truly is.



Fu Pao,

Always should you have basic structure training under your sash before you go out and add weight to any movement. I forgot that some people think you can just up poundage without that consideration. Shot puts in your palms help me to better focus my intent on walking as im slowly walking a circle(im one of those bagua guys) performing palm changes. the puts will pull me off if im off my frame in the littlest. Great help for me.

In Boston

[K.Brazier]

Delibandit,
I like your writing on holding the stance.
Kevin

[Samurai Jack]

Dale, have you tried the NWW muscle / tendon change tape? I learned this exercise set years ago, but I'm a little rusty on it. Is it any good?

[Dale Dugas]

They have two sets restructure one and two. One is on tape that he is selling now. Its a decent upper body workout. I like it and it has ripped me up and helped me lose fat and get harder. Nothing wrong with that.

Dale

[IronFist]

I'm incorperating the ideas from the Shaolin manual into my deadlfit routine. I'm going to be performing one low-rep set, five days a week, and throw a little bit of weight on the bar every week. Instead of starting off with a light weight and working up ten pounds a day ala PTP, I'll be starting close to my one rep max and put only 2 1/2 pounds a week on the bar. I'm considering using singles or triples for this routine. Any comments?

Sounds like you might hit CNS fatigue pretty quickly, depending on how close to your 1RM you start. I'd get enough sleep each night, too. 1RM sets are hard to do if you're not feeling aweosme that day. Keep us posted, tho.

If I were doing it I would start well below my 1RM, or maybe do a two week cycle of PTP first, take 3-5 days off, and THEN do what you suggested.

[Samurai Jack]

Thanks for the tips. I'll let everyone know how t goes. It feels really good to be doing heavy singles after all the high-rep stuff I was doing. So far, so good.

[IronFist]

^ Ever notice how it doesn't feel really good to do high rep stuff after doing singles for a while? :D

[iron tiger]

What is "Muscle Restructure?"

You would know it as the "Muscle / Tendon Change" set

aka the "Muscle Change Classic," pts 1 & 2


stance training

Holding deep stances for extended periods also has a stimulating effect on the body's internal energy (ie 'chi'), in addition to the leg strengthening/positive influence on maneuvering.

:)

[Fu-Pow]

Holding deep stances for extended periods also has a stimulating effect on the body's internal energy (ie 'chi'), in addition to the leg strengthening/positive influence on maneuvering.

:)


I would think that standing meditation would have more of that effect than holding low stances....

[bodhitree]

chinese strength training (http://english.peoplesdaily.com.cn/200311/20/eng20031120_128654.shtml)

Yet Again (http://www.abc.net.au/sport/content/200408/s1182177.htm)

[SevenStar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL4PY38ZNvE&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3eb740pyiE&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KJG0tFJe4g&mode=related&search=

[Chief Fox]

Taht sweep pole thing was pretty cool. The other stuff sorta reminded me of kettlebell training.

The "long bag" was pretty cool. Probably a pretty good grip workout.

Thanks for the vids.

[Meat Shake]

Never used the first one, but the movements are the same as belt cracking... Looks like a good workout though.
2nd was a single sided rock pole... Ive got one made of cement. :)

3rd one.... I miss the long bag. those things are fun. Playing catch with them is a great workout.

[IronWolverine]

:) I can dig that.:mad:

[Mr Punch]

That first one was sweet! Buuut looks like a good way to pull out your lower back!

Second one looked good too: wonder if that's any better than actually throwing someone or if it's just designed as a solo drill.

Third one: gotta make me one of those!

Meat Shake: checked out a vid of belt cracking the other day: you just supposed to pull it as fast and taught as you can at the end of each move?


Iron Wolverine: why the angry face?

[dougadam]

I am impressed