yang jwing ming's bagua video?

[wingchunalex]

since there are no bagua schools in my area i was concidering buying one of yang jwing ming's baguzhang videos. is this an acceptable way to try and train in bagua. i have a good background in chinese martial arts with wing chun and yang tai chi, maybe i can have someone check me on the eight palms form if i ever get the chance after i learn in on video. everyone's opinion would be a big help.

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu

[PlasticSquirrel]

your background in yang family taijiquan is good. if you have skill in applications, you will certainly need it for baguazhang. if you do decide to use the book and videos, you should at least have a partner to practice applications with, or it is doubtful that you will become good at applying it. much harder to apply than the xingyiquan i practice.

as for the book and videos, although they come from ymaa and are probably written by dr. yang, liang shouyu is probably the source of the information. they are good friends. after they met up, mr. liang taught dr. yang hebei xingyiquan and emei baguazhang, and dr. yang authored books on the two styles (dr. yang has a better handle on english, and more experience as a writer). really what you will be picking up is from liang shouyu, and is the style of baguazhang from the emei mountains. mt. emei is reputed for it's great gongfu, but it is not as popular as the other two martial mountains of songshan and wudangshan.

from what i've seen of liang shouyu, he has very good skills in the internal styles (he practices hebei xingyiquan, emei baguazhang, and chen taijiquan), with extensive experience in all three, as well as many types of qigong. his ways of applying them are very good. they're the type of applications where you just think "man, that would really suck to have that happen to you." though he's a wushu coach, he first learned traditional styles.

really, if you have good experience in wing chun and taijiquan, i don't see any reason why you couldn't learn baguazhang, even with it's complexities, if you practice very carefully and practice apps with a partner. that's just me, though. i'm sure others will go for the "you can't learn anything from a video!" approach. ;)

[TaoBoxer]

no

[Chris McKinley]

I haven't seen the YMAA videos on Bagua personally. However, if the applications mirror those found in the YMAA book Emei Baguazhang, you should be aware that the video will be of more cultural than martial value. In my review of that book for Amazon.com, I mentioned that I believed it to be the best English language book on Bagua available at that time, but I was very critical of its lackluster and, IMO, completely unimpressive and overly basic combat applications.

Baguazhang has a reputation as a very nasty and brutal art, with many creative limb destructions. Yet the applications shown in the book do nothing to corroborate or further that reputation, IMO.

[Crimson Phoenix]

I am a practicionner of Jiang's bagua xingyi and have that video...indeed, the applications are very simple and I have come to think that it is made on purpose. In my opinion, you will have much troubles learning an art like bagua unless 1) you really really read the book carefully and 2) are lucid enough to really judge your practice to see if it suits the principles in the book.
But since you have a background in taiji, it could greatly help.
The Emei style is quite different from the one I practice, but all the important points (spine alignement, twisting, waist work etc...) are here.
I do not believe applications are really important when you start, I have been practicing my 8 basic palms for 1 year and a half without being shown any applications (or obvious ones) because sifu told me that there are better things to learn than applications from the palms until you manage to "move internally".
I'd tend to say that anyway buying the book an the first two videos is a good buy and there is always something you can benefit from in them...

[Repulsive Monkey]

...has given the right answer in my opinion as even with my years of experience in one internal martial art I still would only accept direct teaching from a face to face teacher, its the only way you can be sure.

[PlasticSquirrel]

i wonder if you two would think that you are better teachers or fighters than liang shouyu, that you would say that someone can not learn baguazhang at all from his books and videos, or question his teaching methods?

liang shouyu is a very powerful fighter, with probably over 30 years of teaching. even i know skill when i see it.

[Sam Wiley]

More than likely, you can learn the forms from their videos, as both Liang and Yang are reputed to be excellent teachers.

On the other hand, I myself am in agreement with several others as to the fighting applications, which are far more basic and far less brutal than ones I learned in the style that I practice. I suppose that as far as martial arts go, the applications are acceptable, but when it comes to self-defense they will more than likely be ineffective. I suppose that I am going to continue to take flak from people who have not been exposed to the extremely vicious side of the internal martial arts, but I am just trying to point people in the right direction.

So, if you are set on learning this style, and there are no teachers in your area, by all means check into the videos. At the very least, it will give you a fair introduction to the art.

I myself had learned Taiji before learning Bagua, and I feel this made things easier. Baguazhang is more athletic and physically demanding, though, than most modern Taiji styles. But having practiced a harder art like Wing Chun, which has many similarities to Taiji and Bagua both (at least to the styles I practice), you'll probably be well-prepared for this.

Good luck. :)

*********

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

Plastic Squirrel...

Regardless of the skill level of the instructor in the Video or Book, there is no way anyone could learn a system from either. What a ridiculous thought. Do you actually think one could learn the intricacies of an art from a video or book with no one there to correct you? I don't even know where to begin to explain how impossible that is...
Secondly, what's up with this attack on Taoboxer and Repulsive Monkey? They are just giving their opinions and said nothing about the ability of the teacher. Maybe you are so offended because this is how you learned your Martial Arts?

~ETB

[Chris McKinley]

PlasticSquirrel, I'm not sure to whom your comment was directed, but I'll respond appropriately. As for me, I question EVERYONE'S training methods, no matter WHO they are. Notice I didn't say I label them as inferior, merely that I question. When someone comes along who has a superior training method, questioning it allows me to appreciate WHY it's superior.

I also happen to know a good bit about learning theory and how learning takes place due to my academic background, generally significantly more than most martial arts instructors I'm likely to encounter, no matter how masterful they are at what they do. This allows me to question their methods to check if I feel their methods are in line with the principles of how learning actually takes place. This isn't a scientific evaluation, simply me making an educated evaluation for myself.

However, all of what I've just typed isn't really relevant to the point I originally made in my first post. Namely, that the applications put forth in the Emei Baguazhang book (not video) are rudimentary to the point of near uselessness against any but the most incompetent street attacker, and therefore do not properly represent the art of Baguazhang as a fighting art, IMO.

I have high respect for Liang Shou Yu's ability and for his reputation as a teacher. However, you seem to be assuming that the material found on a book or video by him automatically includes the best of what he has to offer...all of his teaching experience, ability, etc.

I choose not to make that assumption, because if what's in the book is the best of what Master Liang can do, his reputation would be nothing but hype and he might even be considered a fraud. Personally, I think that Master Liang and Dr. Yang simply chose, however wisely or not, to provide some very basic applications in order to be able to clearly demonstrate the principles of Bagua, rather than realistic street technique, and this they do quite well.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

I have deep respect for Master Liang. I've been able to meet him several times and have trained extensively with one of his Tudi (Sam Masich, who is also Dr Yang's disciple). Having met many other students of his, including well known and successful competitors, there is one thing I have observed as regards the teaching of applications. This is that Master Liang keeps the martial pretty close to his chest.

Most of his long-time students don't learn more than rudimentary applications for the changes. It appears as though Master Liang can use his martial arts, and is likely capable of employing even very simple applications despite the agression speed or power of an opponent. I do believe, however, that he probably learned more detailed applications from his grandfather than he has so-far been willing to share. I know that some of his 10-year students were surprised one day to discover that Master Liang is the lineage holder of a Sichuan snake-style that they had never heard of. This is an example of how private he can be about his martial arts.

A major part of Wude is the care that must be taken with the sharing of deadly knowledge. I believe that Master Liang is a strong, perhaps even extreme, example of this. I do wonder why his students have so little knowledge of application when they train with such a high-powered man?

When I watched him teach he wasn't a real hands-on teacher touching and demonstrating usage. I wonder how much his students, even the long-time ones, get to touch his power?

As to the idea of learning from a video, how can you get more than simple coreography? If you know the style then you may be able to read into the movements and understand the transitions, otherwise its fairly useless.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[PlasticSquirrel]

for clarification, i was just asking a question. not posing any sort of attack. i don't see any sort of common sense in a flat-out "no". i think that people should respect mr. liang's skills enough to think that someone can learn something out of his books and videos, no matter how much that something is. how far someone can go with those skills is subject to many factors. isn't learning a little bit of gongfu better than none, though?

chris: the question wasn't directed at you. your response was a very valid and fair one, with good points made. to question someone's teaching method is most certainly acceptable.

eight trigram boxer: maybe you are a little insecure yourself about a simple question posed at two other people, that you would try to make an attack at me. what ever thought you considered to be ridiculous was made up by yourself. notice that i used the words "at all" in my last post. i do not think that anyone could claim to have learned a system properly through training with videos. i have nothing to hide, and i do not learn from videos. do you feel like you have to justify your training method by tearing down others' teaching/learning methods? notice that many great masters release videos or vcd's, so that people can learn at least a little bit. maybe it's because they are more confident of their skills. from what i know, sam wiley has very good skills, and he would never bug out like you just did over a simple question. some of the people on this board are considerate of other peoples' dreams and aspirations, and realize that if they can't learn anything face-to-face, that it would be smart to learn at least a little bit using other methods.

if you want to see what sort of depth i have, i invite you to look through my past posts. i am sure that you will see that i have a bit of knowledge, and that if i talk about topics such as jins, rooting, or moving qi to different depths of muscle, that i talk about them out of clear comprehension of them, and out of purely my observations, rather than with the words of others.

[grounded]

I believe in many cases these books are written as a teaching aid, not as the sole educational method. I have friends who have worked with Dr Yang and have had much success with his books AND hands on coaching. However, the idea that one could learn a system well without hands on help cheapens the experience. Besides, if you can learn from a video, why am I spending money every month to learn hands on? :eek: `

[wingchunalex]

i thank all of you for your advice. since there are no bagauzhang teachers in my area i think i will invest in the video. I alread own the book. wing chun in my main art, so the fighting applications are not overly important to me, i am more interested in the footwork and the way the palm strikes are done. i have always thought that ba gua is a very interesting system and seems to fit my personality and is another way to express myself through martial arts. if i ever get the chance to learn from a teacher i will at least have something to work off of. and anyway, ba gau is not my main art, so thanks everyone for you help.

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu

[EARTH DRAGON]

they say he who learns from a book has a fool for a student and a jack*ss as a teacher... or is that just for lawyers?

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[IronFist]

I'm gonna put it on eBay tomorrow unless someone from here wants it.

It's the video "Baguazhang: Emei Baguazhang Volume 1 - Basic Training, Qigong, Eight Palms and Their Applications."

Here (http://store.yahoo.com/ymaa/embagvol1bas.html) is a link to it at the YMAA store.

It basically follows the book by the same name. The back of the cover says "It contains basic training and body conditoining, teaches Qigong, and demonstrates the famous Eight Palms sequence with martial applications." It also gives demonstrations of bagua post training and some of the training with bricks they show in the book.

Retail price is $49.99 + shipping. I'll sell it for $40 shipped.

PM me. First come first serve.

Oh yeah, it's VHS and in mint condition. I only watched it twice.

[Walter Joyce]

So now he is a ba gua expert????

[PHILBERT]

[I made a fool of myself.]

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Walter Joyce
So now he is a ba gua expert????

Are you talking about me or Yang Jwing-Ming?

I hope you don't think I'm selling it cuz I think I'm a Bagua expert now :rolleyes:. I'm selling it cuz I bought it to see what bagua was all about a few years ago and I forgot I had the tape and now I'm selling it cuz I don't want it any more.

[Walter Joyce]

My bad, I meant Jimmy Yang.

I'm from Boston, which is where he is based.

Lets just say his internal act does better on the road than at home.

[Brad]

Liang Shou Yu is the primary author for Emei Baguazhang.

[Walter Joyce]

That may be true, but you wouldn't know it by the name of the thread.

[IronFist]

Correct. Liang, Shou-Yu is listed first. But I had never heard of him so I just said Yang instead. Sorry for the confusion.

[IronFist]

Sold.