Why is the chen style so different

[bamboo_ leaf]

Why are all the derivatives of the Chen style so much different from the Chen that they are said to have originated from?

All of these masters had access to the Chen style yet their TC more closely follows the Yang style why do you think this is so?

bamboo leaf

[EARTH DRAGON]

sorry this is so long, its taken from our history page on my web site but it maybe an explaination or answer to your question.
Chen Sen Feng developed the grand ultimate system called Tai Chi Chuan. Chen returned to the shaolin temple were his new Martial art that was often called (wu tang boxing ) then he taught Chen Sun Chi. At this point the art consisted of only three techniques with many fighting applications and was called Lao San Dao(old three cuts)when Chen taught Wang Tsung Yueh he changed the art by developing into 13 posture's. The modified forms were taught to Jiang fa,who lived in the nearby Chen Village. He taught Chen Wang Ting who lived In the Shan Dung province He returned to the Chen Village in1644 and began to take the Wu Tang boxing methods learned from Jiang fa and refine & perfect them, he added postures from Sung Tai Tzu Chuan and various Shaolin forms.Then combined the internal health theories of passages of blood,air flow and energy, and this new art became Chen Chia Chuan , now called Chen Tai Chi Chuan. For generations the art of Chen Tai Chi was a secret heritage of just a small number of family members. Almost exclusively parent passed the knowledge onto the children.During the 1700's Chen Wang Ting's stlye had developed into the five routines of Paoi Chuoi , a 32 and a 108 posture Tai Chi form, also Duan Da ( short strike) form. By the end of the century the art had been passed down to Chen Chang Shing who untied and simplified the various routines.Word began to spread of about Chen's martial art and in the early 1800'S and reached Yang Lu Tsan. Yang was a master of Hung Quan Shaolin stlye,and became fascinated with stories of a new internal art and its health benefits. Eager to learn Yang travel to the Chen Village to seek instruction from Chen . Officially no one other than family members were taught so he was forced to learn in secret. He became the janitor of the Chen Village, and secretly observed as they practiced in the middle of the night. Yang practised continuously repeating one movement 1000 times a night. 20 years later Yang moved to Beijing were he began teaching tai chi ,he noticed that the Chen style was very difficult to learn for the average practitioner So he modified it for health, and ease of flow,this new style he called "Yang style"it is still the most common of Styles practiced today.
That is what I have been taught to know of the history from my shrfu of Tai Chi Chuan so maybe its becuse only chen family members know the true chen style and every one else has learned yang's interpertation or Chen. just My opinon and understanding.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Kevin Wallbridge]

The historical record looks a little different from the folk model.

There is nothing extant from the period of Zhan Sanfeng that even alludes to him being involved in any martial practices. He wrote about alchemy not boxing.

Three hundred years later Chen Wanting appears to have developed a syncretic martial system based on the thought and method of Qi Jiguang, and perhaps the writing of Chang Naijiao. It may be that Chen Wanting was poised to rise in the Confucian bureaucracy when the Ming dynasty fell and the Qing dynasty arose. As the Qing were a non-Chinese military society the possibilties for military advancement for a Han were severely curtailed. This may be why Chen Wanting stayed home and developed his martial arts.

The historicity of Jiang Fa is not well established. He appears in no official records of the period, though there is a portrait of Chen Wanting that shows a bearded figure standing behind him. The Chens identify this as Jiang Fa, which would make him a disciple not a teacher (the teacher does not stand behind a seated student in classic portraiture).

Zhan Sanfeng and Jiang Fa mythology aside, I think I know what you are getting at bamboo_leaf. The real problem is that transmission has not followed a communist ideal were all Chens got to share equally in the Taiji pie. Its a feature of peasant societies that the world seems finite and so the world's resources seem finite. This means that if your neighbour is getting ahead they are getting a bigger share than your family. Its ok for them to survive, but if they expand it will ultimately be at your expence. This has been a subtle feature of Chinese society from the most ancient times.

Because the boxing skills were a means to local power in the Chen village there was a quiet competition for the best skills even between the various families of the same clan. It appears from the historical record that the best skills remained in the direct line from Chen Wanting through Chen Changxing through Chen fake. Yes there were many skilled boxers in the village (it is not certain but the northern advance of the Taiping rebellion may have been stopped at the Chen village), but each kept a little bit secret from the others.

When we come to the 20th century we are in a period of terrible decline. China was ripped apart by colonial powers with no long term interest in the infrastructure of China (a feature of the unequal treaty system). It appears that the overall level of boxing in the Chen village had declined due to poverty, social dislocation, lack of central authority, and widespread opium addiction brought on by despair. When Chen Fake went to Beijing he took with him the highest level of knowledge still remaining in the village. After his departure, and until Chen Zhaokui's return in the 1960's, there were no practitioners of the first rank left in the village.

In Beijing, Chen Fake taught openly, but not completely. He taught a "public" form, based on the form of his grandfather Chen Changxing, but not as detailed in terms of precise silk-reeling jings. This sharing of more private knowledge may have been because he needed to compete for position with other high level Taijiquan practitoners in Beijing at that time. This form became the basis for the Chen of Feng Zhiqiang and Hong Junsheng. More detailed than what was still happening in the village (they continued to do an even simpler version of the form), but still not the "lineage" form.

Chen Zhaokui returned to the village and began to teach the public form, this became called by the villagers the Xinjia, or new frame, because it seemed as if this must have been created by Chen Fake once he got to Beijing (Chen Zhaokui said it was his father's form). Hence they call the village form the Laojia, or old frame.

Chen Zhaokui had four disciples that he taught the lineage form to: Ling Jiang, Cheng Jinzhai, Ma Hong, and Wu Xianbou.

So what we have is an old style generated in the 17th century, cross-fertilized in the village until the breakdown of the old Imperial system, yet having at its core the skills of the main decendants. Better than most of their contemporaries, not by genetics, rather because they were receiving better more-detailed training. The lineage core leaves the village with Chen Fake, who was acknowledged as being peerless the Beijing Taijiquan community, and he never returns. When his son comes back he is teaching more of the old core material, which comes to be called the new stuff.

The real dilemma for Chen practitioners is that the best of the style left the village a couple of generations ago, so is it "the source" for the best Chen style?

As for "... yet their TC more closely follows the Yang style..." I actually don't understand what you are saying. It seems to me the other way around.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[MaFuYee]

bamboo leaf;

ooh ooohh.... i know the answer!

it's because yang style is the real snit, and those evil chen folks, just stole the "tai chi" name, and attached it to their indigenous ma system. - they then went and spread a bunch of lies, about how yang style really came from chen style. - and the stupid americans bought that bunch of bunk, lock stock and barrel.

they don't even question, when every 6 months or so, the powers that be, in the chen community, decide to add another "traditional" form. - hey, it's good business!

* actually, over the years, there have been dozens, if not hundereds of styles that have incorporated "tai chi" into their style's name. - it doesn't mean that they have any ties to the yang style, it just means they adoped the name, because it was in vogue. (kinda like the "Y2K" bandwagon phenomenon.)

- neque mibi quisquam Judaeorum fabulas objiciat.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Thanks for the info:

This is from “fundamentals of TCC by Wen Shan Huang.

The TCC health exercise was created and founded by the Chinese Taoism some 700 years age and originally comprised three parts, body and mind conditioning, hands combating and weapons fighting”

TC classics by Wayson Liao

He talks about a “temple style” that was first known later to be associated with the family styles that we have today a kind precurssor.

The Dao of TC by Jou, Tsung Hwa,

He also seems to suggest the same thing.

I have read this in a couple of other books it would seem to suggest that their was a pre existing TC idea “style” that was introduced to the Chens.

I was wondering if any one had an idea of what the pre Chen looked like. Not really important in the scheme of things just wondering.

My first intro to TC was though a direct student of Tung Kai Ying when he was in Hawaii his grandfather was a direct student of Yang Cheng Fu. Tung Ying Chieh.

It would be many years later that I would pick up and settle on the Cheng-Man Ching from. Very different from the way the Yang style is played as l first learned it.

In Golden Gate Park I can see many different styles while practicing preformed by in my opinion quite good players.

The Wu, Yang and some others look closer to the same idea then the Chen style. I am not saying better just more similar. Of course as I found by my own experience they may be very different even if they superficially look similar.

actully i am not looking for an answer perse, just some differnt views.

thanks to all who shared.

:)

bamboo leaf

[This message was edited by bamboo_ leaf on 11-12-01 at 10:23 AM.]

[This message was edited by bamboo_ leaf on 11-12-01 at 10:23 AM.]

[EARTH DRAGON]

Again from our history but no records of pre chen for it has been said that chen sen feng invented the stlye but I may be wrong
The history of tai chi has been handed down from generation to generation for thousands of years and also through traditional writings of tai chi which are collectively referred to as the "classics" according to legend tai chi was created at the end of the Sung Dynasty by a Shaolin monk named Chang Sen Feng, a shaolin disciple.Chang left the temple because he felt the fighting techniques became to harsh and strength oriented, in order to find a suitable Martial art for himself and other monks he journeyed to the Wu tang mountain and spent many years there as a hermit .He observed the habits of Long lived animals such as turtles and cranes, learning and adapting these natural movements to the mechanics of the human body and connecting them with the principles of Taoism Chen Sen Feng he developed this grand ultimate system called Tai Chi Chuan. Eventually Chen returned to the shaolin temple were his new Martial art that was often called (wu tang boxing )

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Daniel Madar]

There is a form of Wu Dang Taiji, though where it actually originates from I can not say. ((And I am not talking about Dan Docherty's system.)) My teacher knows it, but neither performs it publicly nor teaches it. She learned it from her friend, Pei Xi Rong, if I recall correctly, in exchange for teaching him something.

What exactly this style looks like, I can't say, having not seen it. Actually, that's not entirely correct. I've seen stick figure drawings of it in Wong Kiew Kit's book on Taiji, but that hardly counts.

-D

Merciless is Mercy.

[mantis108]

These are straightly my thoughts and they don't represent ideas other than my own.

1) Essentiallly, all the 5 families Taijiquan (the form) are structured the same. So it is quite possible that Taijiquan (the form) was created by the Chen family based on the Tai Tzu Changquan. That begs the question does the form equals the system? Is the form along represent the Taiji system? That's to say Taiji system can be articulated with a finite form or Taiji system can not and should be represented by a finite form because it's conceptual.

2)I have learned couple of Taiji forms other then the Taijiquan in the Taiji Praying Mantis system that are not found in any of the 5 families. They were said to be a "Temple style" found in the Shantung province (Northeastern China). The Henan Taiji systems are middle southwestern-ish. The frame (body mechanics) are similar to the Yang and it's derivatives. We know that Yang Lu Chen taught in Beijing, which was neibourghing Shantung province. There is a theory out there that points to a Northern and Southern systems of Neijia (though not necessarily Taiji but similar in principles) that exist side by side.

3) What if the form was from Chen ( the south) and that the frame, postures and concepts are more inclined to Northern style?

4) The more martial looking Chen and the more civil looking Yang both have the Silk Reel type of power generation altought they look quite different due to the frames that they adapted. In principle they generate power the same way.

Just a few thoughts

Mantis108

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[Daniel Madar]

I've heard from a number of places that Yang knew another style prior to learning Chen Taiji, and he synthesized the two. To my mind this makes a lot of sense, but still has many wholes in it.

What I find interesting is the fact that Hao is an admitted fusion between Yang and Chen, but really resembles neither of them very strongly.

Merciless is Mercy.

[EARTH DRAGON]

just curious what Yang are you talking about? if it is yang lu tsan how could he know of another stlye of tai chi before is was invented by chen sen feng?

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[bamboo_ leaf]

I have also heard or read that CMC had some influence from another source other then YCF, some say this accounts for the different ideas displayed in movement.

Mantis 108,

Jou, Tsung Hwa wrote that the goal is to be formless, he also speaks of what he calls master keys, which are the TC principles. This is very much in line with my own thinking.


interesting informantion, would any one say that its easyer picking up the principles in some TC styles as opposed to others? i have heard that Wu is very hard to grasp the opening and closeing is quite small.

bamboo leaf

[Daniel Madar]

Since there are multiple accounts of where Taiji originated from, and Bamboo's seemed framed in such a way as to assert that Yang did indeed learn from the Chen Family, I framed my answer likewise.

That is to say:

Assuming that the Chen Family is the source of the "original" taiji, and Yang did indeed learn from them, there has been an assertion that Yang (Lu Chan) had learned another style of MA prior to studying in ChenJiagou.

I did not mean to imply that Yang Lu Chan knew another style of taiji, just another martial art. Long Fist, or Monkey style or what ever.

Merciless is Mercy.

[This message was edited by Daniel Madar on 11-12-01 at 02:13 PM.]

[gazza99]

Great informative thread guys! I for one have not dedicated hardly any effort in research. But from listening to different theories/arguements on history and liniage it seems the debate can be endless.

It does seem though, that most of the flavors of taiji agree on the basic principles. Its just what emphasis is used to achieve the power/health. Or what proportionality of training is dedicated to the application for combat.

Basic structure seems to transcend styles of taiji, please correct me if Im off on any of these examples..

-hold head as if suspended from above
-keep the backbone straight (sac-rum vertical to ground, coccyx points in direction your facing)

-Arms and palms and shoulders are relaxed (sung)
-elbows are sunk, but gwa's are open
-Yin/Yang exists in a state of change (one leg *yang* issues power, and the other being *yin* recieves it. )
-shoulders are naturaly rounded
-Unity of upper and lower
-movements are always circular-(even if they may appear straight)
-fluidity-since all movements are circular they do not start and stop but flow into one another hence the "moving like a river" analogy.

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[Daniel Madar]

-hold head as if suspended from above
-keep the backbone straight (sac-rum vertical to ground, coccyx points in direction your facing)


Wu Jien Quan style "leans" forward, so the head is not suspended, nor is the sacrum vertical to the ground.

Merciless is Mercy.

[mantis108]

Hi Bamboo Leaf,

I hear you. I am more or less on the conceptual camp ;)

Daniel,

About the Wu Style lean body structure, it is still under the same principles. There are 2 main reasons to have the "leaning". One is stylized which I am not about to disclose. The other is technical. It is physically impossible for a small physique (wieghting 100 - 115 lbs person) to "root" and sustains a hard push from a large person (250 - 300 lbs range). Those who said it's possible are boostering a myth. I know this because I have trained my stance (over 45 mins mark in low stance). Most of the people I encountered are much heavier than I, who weight around 110 lbs. With the Yeung style posture (straight bodied) , I still will be pushed/toppled over easily. But I adopt the Wu style body, which was my initial style BTW, the situation improved greatly for me. I can maintain good posture, form and root. With good flooring, I could even "creat" an impression that I am very hard to push over or "unmovable". That's just the principles of physics which good Taiji employs. BTW, I believe the Wu style's creator has a bit of a haunch back himself. I think he was born that way.

Mantis108

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[Daniel Madar]

BTW, I believe the Wu style's creator has a bit of a haunch back himself. I think he was born that way.


I can't think of any other way to say this, but I never said that Wu is not in line with the main taiji principles, merely that Gary was missing some information when he made his statements.

As for Chuan Yu having a hunch, I'm not sure I can believe that. Chuan Yu served in the Imperial Guard, and it is unlikely that someone who was physically deformed would be allowed into the Guard. Is this merely your assumption--as mine is--, or do you have some concrete evidence to suggest it?

Wu is also my main style.

Merciless is Mercy.

[gazza99]

Mantis:
I have limited exposure to Wu style, but I only weigh 145 pounds, I have been able to uproot a 300 pound person without having to lean. Ive had the same guy run at me with a punch, and Ive been able to block without having to be knocked back.
Also I would think leaning would allow your energy to be split easily? Of course if you cannot disclose your secrets that lie behind the reason..fine.
Regards,
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[bamboo_ leaf]

There is another post on rooting.

Could you share some insights on rooting on the other post?

bamboo leaf
www.cyberkwoon.com (http://www.cyberkwoon.com)

[mantis108]

Great to meet another Wu style folk. I am not saying the founder was deformed. I was saying that he had a bit of a hunch (from I have heard which could be misinformation and I am also looking for info concerning this) that might make the posture looks like leaning. When Yeung Ching Fu was young, he was slim and used a straight body. Later, he kind of adapted the leaning as his body became heavier. For that there are pictures of him in different ages to verify. My point is that sometimes certain postures are adapted to suit the stylist. It is not necessarily a bad thing as long as principles of the style are expressed. We have to be alert and not just to mimic our teacher and we are also responsable to finding out whether it is personal preference of the teacher or it is stylistic difference.

"Wu Jien Quan style "leans" forward, so the head is not suspended, nor is the sacrum vertical to the ground."

I agreed with the latter half of the statement but not the head is not suspended part. Since my understanding is that even the spine is kind of tilted slightly forward and keeping straight, the head is in fact more suspended. "Ding Tau Yuen" or "Hui Ling Ding Ging" is about the natural suspension of the head (aligned naturally not forcefully stiff with the spine). It is a must in Taiji. Especially in Wu Style when it comes to the Neigong as in the water buffalo pose.

Regards

Mantis108

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