What the heck is "Spoon feeding" anyway?

[Royal Dragon]

Many times I have heard TCMA Teachers say they do not want to "Spoon feed" thier students. They want to make them work it out for themselves. They act like spoon feeding is a diservice.

But what exactly is work it out for yourself? Is it not the same as "I don't feel like teaching you, so you are getting some philisphical mumbo jumbo"?

In every other discapline, students are TAUGHT, and then that teaching is reinforced and expanded on by drills and problems that force thought and mastery.

Only in Kung Fu are you told to figure it out on your own and fed a "Spoon feeding" cop out.

Lets look at an example and comparison here.

When one learns math, we are not given a set of problems to figure out and told we are on our own. We are not told, or made to feel like being taught propperly is bad, and fed the buzz word "Spoon feeding" as if it's something bad that you would have to do to a baby.

In MATH, we are tauight the Additon, Subtraction, Times and Division tables first. This would be akin to being taught techniques, and functional applications in Kung Fu. Once one has master the various math tables, it's time to start doing simple math problems, and slowly working up to more complicated ones as we follow the path to mathmatics mastery. Through this, we learn what Addition and Subtraction is, and later the expansion into Division and Multiplication. This understanding could be likened to the theories of attack and defence of your given style, and the tables of Addition, Subtraction, Multiplication and Division would be the techniques and applications to them.

In mathmatics, we are given text books which guide us in our learning, and give us problems in which to test and expand our matmatical skills. The lessons and pages that we work out on our own in the book would be considered the same as sparring and fighting in Kung Fu. The text book itself would be the forms.

In Kung Fu, we are not taught the application tables (Apps to moves), we are taught many, many forms. This would be akin to being given a math book, and learning to copy the symbols of mathmatic equasions, but not actually learning to do math. You could have the most advanced Algebra Trigg text book, and you could become very good at copying the contents in the book and thus createing another identical book, but does that teach you to actually perform algebraic computations? Or does that make you good at copying forms?

So I say again, doesn't the term spoon feeding really mean I'm not qualified to teach, so buy my BS instead?

Really, If I have to figure it out on my own, and reinvent the wheel anyway, why bother with a Kung Fu teacher in an age when DVD's on entire systems are cheap and common place (Kung Fu's equivilant to "Home Schooling")?

And to take that even further, what is the point of learning Kung Fu, when MMA gyms actually teach correctly? Or why bother with more orthadox Kung Fu at all, and just go directly to San Shou, or Kuo Shou?

[Merryprankster]

Hear hear!

There is value in figuring out your own "personal" variation on something, but that requires a base level of skill in that particular technique that can only be garnered by being "spoonfed."

[Oso]

imo, the best lessons learned are ones you teach yourself.

not to say that teachers, of all disciplines (TCMA, TJMA, MMA etc) should not actually teach something to the people that have committed themselves to them (via money, time or whatever). But, any good teacher/coach will guide thier student/athlete in a direction of self awareness and self discovery that will allow them to make connections between the actual data learned and how to really make it thier own thing.

maybe that sounds kinda hokey and perhaps smacks of something new agey and mystical but I think that it totally applies to sport martial arts as well.

I've got a number of people that only drill what they know and wait for the next item on the agenda w/o making any sort of effort to compile it in their heads and bodies. They work hard and can do what they are shown well enough...but they are boring as hell to teach.


I think most of your analogy is off but I don't have time to dissect it.



And to take that even further, what is the point of learning Kung Fu, when MMA gyms actually teach correctly? Or why bother with more orthadox Kung Fu at all, and just go directly to San Shou, or Kuo Shou?

that's a big blanket statement...just wait, the over commercialization of MMA is dawning and only time will tell if the supposed 'correctness' of MMA can withstand the onslought of the mcdojo culture. The bottom line of a mcdojo's success is making a majority of people happy with themselves irrelevent of any actual attainment of skill. While the market share for mma schools is growing, it's still very tiny compared to all the mckrotty, mctkdo and mcfu schools. I personally think that the new drive to bring MMA style classes into the mcdojo is just an attempt to enlarge the market share of mcdojo's over the few schools out there (of all types) that actually try to impart some sort of real skill beyond breaking 1/2" pine boards at birthday parties where the cakes are cut w/ a 'real' samurai sword.

[MasterKiller]

Really, If I have to figure it out on my own, and reinvent the wheel anyway, why bother with a Kung Fu teacher in an age when DVD's on entire systems are cheap and common place (Kung Fu's equivilant to "Home Schooling")?

And to take that even further, what is the point of learning Kung Fu, when MMA gyms actually teach correctly? Or why bother with more orthadox Kung Fu at all, and just go directly to San Shou, or Kuo Shou?

And don't forget the old "Western (white) people (a) couldn't learn it right, (b) take the pain from correct training, or (c) have bad knees, so Master X had to change the training when he came to America."

It's bullsh1t control posturing used to make the master look invincible and all-knowing.

[Black Jack II]

Master had it right, its about a controll issue.

It's not just tcma, you can also find it to a high degree in some silat methods and also sometimes in filipino systems, i am sure to some degree any art can find a teacher like that.

I am sure its on it way toward sport mma, imho the only place you don't see it common place is current mma and modern self defense systems (rbsd).

[Oso]

(b) take the pain from correct training



(b) is the number one reason for the success of mcdojo schools. very few people want to train through the pain of muscle fatigue much less the pain that comes with sparring hard, even with good equipment.

[monkeyfoot]

IMO when teachers say they will not spoon-feed a student, it doesn't mean that they won't impart knowledge, its more that they are conservative in their ways. By this I mean that if a student has a question the teacher will point them in the right direction, but will not simply 'solve the problem for them'.

Its like when people come on the forums asking a question that can easily be found with a little bit of 'googling'. We don't shoot them down, but instead point them in the right direction and let them try and get the answer themselves.

IMHO a teacher is only there for guidance and correction. This way the student develops a much better understanding of the 'whys and hows' of a particular problem.

craig

[SevenStar]

imo, the best lessons learned are ones you teach yourself.

not to say that teachers, of all disciplines (TCMA, TJMA, MMA etc) should not actually teach something to the people that have committed themselves to them (via money, time or whatever). But, any good teacher/coach will guide thier student/athlete in a direction of self awareness and self discovery that will allow them to make connections between the actual data learned and how to really make it thier own thing.

maybe that sounds kinda hokey and perhaps smacks of something new agey and mystical but I think that it totally applies to sport martial arts as well.

I've got a number of people that only drill what they know and wait for the next item on the agenda w/o making any sort of effort to compile it in their heads and bodies. They work hard and can do what they are shown well enough...but they are boring as hell to teach.


I think most of your analogy is off but I don't have time to dissect it.



that's a big blanket statement...just wait, the over commercialization of MMA is dawning and only time will tell if the supposed 'correctness' of MMA can withstand the onslought of the mcdojo culture. The bottom line of a mcdojo's success is making a majority of people happy with themselves irrelevent of any actual attainment of skill. While the market share for mma schools is growing, it's still very tiny compared to all the mckrotty, mctkdo and mcfu schools. I personally think that the new drive to bring MMA style classes into the mcdojo is just an attempt to enlarge the market share of mcdojo's over the few schools out there (of all types) that actually try to impart some sort of real skill beyond breaking 1/2" pine boards at birthday parties where the cakes are cut w/ a 'real' samurai sword.

their self discovery will come through testing - sparring and competing. also, I think mma due to its nature and demographic will survive the onslaught.

[neilhytholt]

'Spoon feeding' means the person doesn't want to do any work.

For example, we had this lady at work that was extremely annoying because whenever she had a problem, she'd always expect somebody else to fix it.

She wouldn't even spend 5 minutes trying to figure out the solution. And she was always getting on people's cases because their documentation wasn't good enough -- yet when it was her turn to produce documentation she wouldn't produce ANY.

Finally I went to my manager and said, "Look, this is a problem because she expects everybody to do her work for her." He said, "Oh, yeah, everybody knows that she requires spoon feeding."

So guess basically what he was trying to say is that instead of looking at a document of figuring out a problem, she wanted it all fed to her 'spoon feeding'.

Anyways, I don't think that's very applicable to martial arts because in martial arts you're supposed to do what the teacher tells you, right? If you don't practice your form or application they're showing you, then it's not really spoon feeding, it's just laziness.

[Royal Dragon]

IMO when teachers say they will not spoon-feed a student, it doesn't mean that they won't impart knowledge, its more that they are conservative in their ways. By this I mean that if a student has a question the teacher will point them in the right direction, but will not simply 'solve the problem for them'.

Reply]
That is all fine and dandy, but what really happenes is that the teacher has not given a foundation to which a student CAN find an answer, so they try and figure it out on thier own, and end up being totally wrong. This is how we get so many hairbrained crazy apps in Kung Fu that get you in more trouble than not.

The problem comes from a long line of NOT teaching the basic math tables of Kung Fu (Techniques and thier uses & apps)

Its like when people come on the forums asking a question that can easily be found with a little bit of 'googling'. We don't shoot them down, but instead point them in the right direction and let them try and get the answer themselves.

Reply]
No, it like when someone comes on the forum who doesn't have the capability to find Google and we fail to show them that capablity. It's like expecting someone to do Multiplication, without ever haveing had them memorize thier multiplication tables. "Oh, you want the answer to 4X10? go figure it out ur self, you don't want me to be spoon feeding you do you?" So, the student not haveing any Multiplication in his background tries his best to use the addition, and subtraction he already knows to figure it out and ends up with the number 12.

He then goes to an MMA competition, and tries to fight with the number 12, and the guys who were taught right kick his ass with a 40.

The problem here is that the TEACHER had him copying Multiplcation text books, instead of teaching him multiplcation. In order for the student to have figured it out himself, he would have had to memeorised the multiplication table...which should have been provided by his teacher in the first place...

IMHO a teacher is only there for guidance and correction. This way the student develops a much better understanding of the 'whys and hows' of a particular problem.

Reply]
And this is precisely why MMA kicks our collective asses. They not only provide guidence and correction, they actually TEACH the mathmatics of fighting starting with the Addition, Subtraction, Multiplication and Division tables (Read as uses and apps to the techniques)!

No one will get a better understanding from *Not* being taught. Very few will know better from reinventing the wheel themselves.

[neilhytholt]

IMO when teachers say they will not spoon-feed a student, it doesn't mean that they won't impart knowledge, its more that they are conservative in their ways. By this I mean that if a student has a question the teacher will point them in the right direction, but will not simply 'solve the problem for them'.

Its like when people come on the forums asking a question that can easily be found with a little bit of 'googling'. We don't shoot them down, but instead point them in the right direction and let them try and get the answer themselves.

IMHO a teacher is only there for guidance and correction. This way the student develops a much better understanding of the 'whys and hows' of a particular problem.

craig

It's just that this type of mentality of 'do the form' and 'figure out the applications on your own' is NEW ... at least I never ran into it until wushu teachers started teaching in the U.S.

They used to show us, okay, this elbow use it to hit this part of the ribs and break it. Or this eye rake, use it to temporarily blind the opponent and stun them before you grab their throat.

Now the teachers don't teach apps, don't know the apps, so they say 'work it out for yourself'. It's a load of crapola. It's a CLASS. They're supposed to TEACH you.

It's different from a job where their job is to read docs and solve problems and they don't want to do that but instead rely on others to do their work for them.

[neilhytholt]

Basically, with the teachers that don't teach apps and expect you to do a lot of work and figure stuff out for yourself, what's the point of going?

If they don't provide an environment where you can spar, if they don't give you the apps, if all they're there for is to teach you a form when you can buy tons of forms off of VCD from China, then what's the point for their existence?

[mantis108]

A good figther or a champion of martial arts competition doesn't necessarily mean that he or she is a good teacher. He/she won't necessarily have all the answers or methodologies suitable for others for that matter.

It's unrealistic to rely on the "teacher" to give you all the answers. But at the same time if the teacher can't provide a basic teaching structure at the very least. That's not a teacher at all. So...

Teaching Kung Fu is an art unto itself. I would say one have to learn how to teach it properly before actually going to teach. Since there is no governing body to monitor standard in Kung Fu, well it's entirely possible that the students will be fed the "I ain't gonna spoon fed ya" rhetoric.

Mantis108

[Royal Dragon]

If they don't provide an environment where you can spar, if they don't give you the apps, if all they're there for is to teach you a form when you can buy tons of forms off of VCD from China, then what's the point for their existence?

Reply]
That would be my point!

[Shaolin Wookie]

My biggest issue with CMA in general. This concept is so widespread, and so friggin' annoying. I still don't know hwat it means. Sometimes I agree with it, sometimes I hate it.

[Anthony]

"I personally think that the new drive to bring MMA style classes into the mcdojo is just an attempt to enlarge the market share of mcdojo's "

I agree and this is why I think that any MMA schools popping up these days won't be around very long.


"....mckrotty, mctkdo and mcfu schools'


To have three different names for the same type of school is too redundant. Let's all agree on the term "McDojo" for all commercial/buisiness savy oriented schools regardless of the style taught. It's just easier. They're all the same anyway. Lets not be so PC.

The whole "not spoon feeding" thing is also just another way of stretching out the student's duration at your school. They stay longer if you hold back knowledge.


"(b) is the number one reason for the success of mcdojo schools. very few people want to train through the pain of muscle fatigue much less the pain that comes with sparring hard, even with good equipment."


I think that for most people the fatigue of a day job plus the job at home (wife, mortgage, kids, and real responsibility) is enough. It's just a lifestyle thing I think. MA becomes less of a priority. So a less intense school becomes more attractive. And combine that with the fact that the McDojos are better at marketing.....they get more people and these schools are the ones that survive.

[neilhytholt]

Teaching Kung Fu is an art unto itself. I would say one have to learn how to teach it properly before actually going to teach. Since there is no governing body to monitor standard in Kung Fu, well it's entirely possible that the students will be fed the "I ain't gonna spoon fed ya" rhetoric.


Yeah, structuring the class so people can learn definitely is NOT the same as being a good fighter, although there are some teachers around that seem to do both. Tito Ortiz, IMHO, is a good example of that.


I think that for most people the fatigue of a day job plus the job at home (wife, mortgage, kids, and real responsibility) is enough. It's just a lifestyle thing I think. MA becomes less of a priority. So a less intense school becomes more attractive. And combine that with the fact that the McDojos are better at marketing.....they get more people and these schools are the ones that survive.

The thing is, that a lot of apps oriented places think harder is better but what happens a lot of the time is students get injured. It's hard to find a teacher that can teach people harder with control so the students don't go home banged up too much.

[MasterKiller]

I think that for most people the fatigue of a day job plus the job at home (wife, mortgage, kids, and real responsibility) is enough. It's just a lifestyle thing I think. MA becomes less of a priority.

I lost my best training partner to World of Warcraft. Seriously.

[golden arhat]

a teacher MUST TEACH !

agreed learning is a personal thing aswell
but without the skills that are taught to u
and a solid base no progress can be made

for instance all the ppl in my gym fight differently even tho they train in the same "style"

all math is based at the core on addition subtraction division and multiplication

just as martial arts are at the core based on similar principles

fighting, correct motion, technique etc

to find things out for yourself you must know the basics and you must be TAUGHT!
to teach yourself

[Oso]

their self discovery will come through testing - sparring and competing. also, I think mma due to its nature and demographic will survive the onslaught.

I think there is a much higher probability of it surviving...but is anything really proof against the all mighty dollar? I'm very suspicious of what goes on behind closed doors at Zuffa. I can't point to anything specifically but I don't believe for a minute that Dana White or anyone else promoting it has any other interest than money.

I also wasn't implying that self discovery would come from any other place but sparring and competition...but that's just my personal opinion. I would say that high level gymnasts, dancers & weightlifters/bodybuilders no doubt reach a similar place. So, I would argue that martial artists who don't compete in sport combat but do train hard to make their body obey their mind can also be counted as having attained a higher level of self awareness even though they do not fight.

[Royal Dragon]

I would say that high level gymnasts, dancers & weightlifters/bodybuilders no doubt reach a similar place. So, I would argue that martial artists who don't compete in sport combat but do train hard to make their body obey their mind can also be counted as having attained a higher level of self awareness even though they do not fight.

Reply]
Sure they can, but even my daughter who was trained at the Illinois Gymnastics Institute when it was one of the top gyms in the nation, has suffered from a drop in skills now that she does not compete anymore. She is still really good and all, but not as percise as she was back then.

[Oso]

"I personally think that the new drive to bring MMA style classes into the mcdojo is just an attempt to enlarge the market share of mcdojo's "

I agree and this is why I think that any MMA schools popping up these days won't be around very long.

I wouldn't count on that.

"....mckrotty, mctkdo and mcfu schools'


To have three different names for the same type of school is too redundant. Let's all agree on the term "McDojo" for all commercial/buisiness savy oriented schools regardless of the style taught. It's just easier. They're all the same anyway. Lets not be so PC.

I wasn't. I was having fun with letters. :D

The whole "not spoon feeding" thing is also just another way of stretching out the student's duration at your school. They stay longer if you hold back knowledge.

I think it you are seeing a different definition of 'spoon feeding' than RD initially stated.

my general mistake is teaching too much at once w/o enough time to assimilate and integrate.

"(b) is the number one reason for the success of mcdojo schools. very few people want to train through the pain of muscle fatigue much less the pain that comes with sparring hard, even with good equipment."


I think that for most people the fatigue of a day job plus the job at home (wife, mortgage, kids, and real responsibility) is enough. It's just a lifestyle thing I think. MA becomes less of a priority. So a less intense school becomes more attractive. And combine that with the fact that the McDojos are better at marketing.....they get more people and these schools are the ones that survive.

well, anyone can be good at marketing...or not. the product still has to be palatable to enough people to make it viable as a business.



I'll say this, if we start seeing MMA Mcdojo's pop up at every strip mall AND they have people that actually get out an fight...just about every argument for a CMA school not making it will be flushed down the crapper. But, competition will be the proof. If a MMA Mcdojo never has a student compete in anything I don't know if it would count...would it?

[Oso]

I would say that high level gymnasts, dancers & weightlifters/bodybuilders no doubt reach a similar place. So, I would argue that martial artists who don't compete in sport combat but do train hard to make their body obey their mind can also be counted as having attained a higher level of self awareness even though they do not fight.

Reply]
Sure they can, but even my daughter who was trained at the Illinois Gymnastics Institute when it was one of the top gyms in the nation, has suffered from a drop in skills now that she does not compete anymore. She is still really good and all, but not as percise as she was back then.

ok, fine, but then one would have to say that anyone who does forms, and does them well and they have a high level of difficulty, can attain a similar level of self awareness and discovery.


and, ftr, I'm not meaning anything holy tofu'ish with 'self awareness' and 'self discovery'
:eek: :eek: i shudder to think it and somebody kick me in the crotch if it ever seems that way :eek: :eek:

i'm just talking about really knowing your capabilities...the whole 'know what you know, what you don't...and the difference'

[Oso]

really, fwiw, anyone that has mastered the application of their craft at a high level of demonstrable skill (be it a writer, sculpter, painter, singer, musician...what have you) has probably attained an intimate level of themselves through whatever process they took to get their.

He who works with his hands is a laborer.

He who works with his hands and his mind is a craftsman.

He who works with his hands, his mind and his heart is an artist.

While there is a lot of grandstanding and **** talking you also see a lot of heart there in the ring. For me, that qualifies any MMA fighter as an artist. Though, one of the things I don't like about the popularization of MMA on TV is the ego's that are demonstrated and are allowed to be demonstrated. I think it cheapens the effort it takes to arrive at that level. But, it sells PPV.

[TenTigers]

I am sorry to say, but the majority of you have never really learned traditional Chinese Gung-Fu. I am talking about the real deal. Not simply forms that have been passed down, cool uniform, altar,and all the Kwai Chang Caine ecoutrements, but actual Gung-Fu. What you might not realize is, real Gung-Fu is passed down through DIRECT TRANSMISSION-hands on,one on one, from Sifu to student. There are very specific,subtle, qualities of energy,movement, that cannot be taught any other way than, you feel me do it, you try, then you feel me again. One step at a time-baby steps. For those of you who get their panties in a bunch, you will cry,"Bullshido!", but for those of you who have actually BEEN THERE, you will nod your heads and say,'Yeah, he's right. That's exactly how I was taught."
There is so much that is involved with doing this right. The "Kung-Fu Body" is one. Feel, is another. Learning structure, sensitivity, reaction, etc is something that is transmitted only through touch from someone highly skilled. Do you think it is folly that many teachers only take a handful of students in a lifetime? Stop looking at these mega-kwoons with huge enrollment as a benchmark to Kung-Fu skill. It was never meant to be taught in this way.
and for those of you who dissagree, it is basically because you have not had the experience to discern the difference. period. you can argue till you are blue in the face, but until you have actually been there done that, you have no fukin clue.

[neilhytholt]

I am sorry to say, but the majority of you have never really learned traditional Chinese Gung-Fu. I am talking about the real deal. Not simply forms that have been passed down, cool uniform, altar,and all the Kwai Chang Caine ecoutrements, but actual Gung-Fu. What you might not realize is

The thing is, each generation since they actually fought on the streets a lot has gotten worse, right? So since the Boxer rebellion, it's all been downhll, right?

So I haven't found a single teacher in 25 years that was as good as my first teacher. Why was he so good? Could it be because he fought in the streets and his teachers fought on the streets?

So I don't know what your point is ... because the teachers now all seem to SUCK, right?

[golden arhat]

I am sorry to say, but the majority of you have never really learned traditional Chinese Gung-Fu. I am talking about the real deal. Not simply forms that have been passed down, cool uniform, altar,and all the Kwai Chang Caine ecoutrements, but actual Gung-Fu. What you might not realize is, real Gung-Fu is passed down through DIRECT TRANSMISSION-hands on,one on one, from Sifu to student. There are very specific,subtle, qualities of energy,movement, that cannot be taught any other way than, you feel me do it, you try, then you feel me again. One step at a time-baby steps. For those of you who get their panties in a bunch, you will cry,"Bullshido!", but for those of you who have actually BEEN THERE, you will nod your heads and say,'Yeah, he's right. That's exactly how I was taught."
There is so much that is involved with doing this right. The "Kung-Fu Body" is one. Feel, is another. Learning structure, sensitivity, reaction, etc is something that is transmitted only through touch from someone highly skilled. Do you think it is folly that many teachers only take a handful of students in a lifetime? Stop looking at these mega-kwoons with huge enrollment as a benchmark to Kung-Fu skill. It was never meant to be taught in this way.
and for those of you who dissagree, it is basically because you have not had the experience to discern the difference. period. you can argue till you are blue in the face, but until you have actually been there done that, you have no fukin clue.


thats what its like in valetudo

one guy shows u a sidemount
then u wrestle and he shows u exactly how the side mount is applied
then u try it
then he points out where u went wrong then he shows u again u try it again until perfect



not

one guy demonstrates it
next guy tries to immitate
teacher says go over there and practise your form by yourself with no one showing u how its really done or applied

later when asked teacher says this is how its applied *shows slow application once *

dumb student says oh ok
and assumes that he can apply what he has learnt

goes back to form

[Royal Dragon]

The thing is, each generation since they actually fought on the streets a lot has gotten worse, right? So since the Boxer rebellion, it's all been downhll, right?

Reply]
Maybe we should be looking at this as a testament to the evolution of the human race, instead of the failure of Kung Fu.

[Royal Dragon]

one guy demonstrates it
next guy tries to immitate
teacher says go over there and practise your form by yourself with no one showing u how its really done or applied

later when asked teacher says this is how its applied *shows slow application once * [I]Boiler plate Spoon Feeding lecture[/INSERT]

dumb student says oh ok
and assumes that he can apply what he has learnt

goes back to form

[neilhytholt]

The thing is, each generation since they actually fought on the streets a lot has gotten worse, right? So since the Boxer rebellion, it's all been downhll, right?

Reply]
Maybe we should be looking at this as a testament to the evolution of the human race, instead of the failure of Kung Fu.

Well, they have weapons of mass destruction now that can kill very efficiently. Why waste somebody's time in hand to hand combat when you can hand them a submachine gun?

But also, there just seem to be fewer street fights at least in the U.S. than ever before. I used to be able to go around town on the weekend and run into at least 1 good fight.

Haven't come across an actual street fight in over 15 years now. Oh, wait, take that back. I did run into one in a bad area about 5 years ago. Two dudes were arguing and hitting each other. But it didn't look like they were too serious.

[TenTigers]

Neil, in a way, you are right. Gung-Fu has been taught a$$backwards for many generations. Taught correctly(forget about "traditionally"-let's be real) you should do drills,drills,drills, applications, and fighting-all hands-on. Forms,if at all, are taught much later, only after the skills are learned. But most schools teach forms first,and MAYBE applications, and MAYBE drills. This right here, explains why most schools look like kickboxing, or point fighting when they fight and nothing at all like their forms,...um, which means for those of you on the short bus, they do not know Kung-Fu.Period. Doing cool applications with a cooperative partner, is not the same thing as being able to use your Kung-Fu.
Golden Arhat is on the money as well. Because it is all hands on, directly taught,felt, and thus learned from teacher to student. This is DIRECT TRANSMISSION.
My SPM teacher does not say,"This is how you do it"
as frustrating as it sounds, this is a typical scenerio:
"ok, do it" -he punches, I do the technique
"No. Again"
"No. Again"
"No. You punch. Feel mine"
"ok. Try again"
"No."
this goes on, and on, until it "clicks" until I "get it"
words don't work, descriptions don't work. Only AFTER I "get it", and I relay back to him what I experienced, does he tell me,"YES! That's it exactly!"
Is it frustrating? Sure. But when you are dealing with subtle techniques, where if it is slightly off, it doesn't work, this is the only way to really learn. Words, rationalizations, intellectualizing about it doesn't do a blessed thing in getting your from point A to point B. Touching,feeling,knowing, is the only way.
This, is why there are so many people studying or claiming to do Gung-Fu, and so very few actually doing it. It is very, very hard. Not only physically, but mentally and emotionally as well.

[neilhytholt]

My SPM teacher does not say,"This is how you do it"


Well, most American MA teachers seem to like to talk endlessly. I don't think most Americans can shut their mouths for more than 5 seconds at a time.

Anyway, whatever. You aren't going to change what MA are doing. All that will likely happen is low impact MMA and sanshou will start getting taught more.

[Anthony]

"I am sorry to say, but the majority of you have never really learned traditional Chinese Gung-Fu. I am talking about the real deal. "


And you base the "real deal" on the way "your teacher" taught it? You have to, since there's no "bible" of Kung-fu that says "this is the way it's meant to be done." Anyway, your argument is a too subjective and is typical in Kung-fu circles. "Traditional" is a subjective term and so is "real deal." Come to think of it, "Kung-fu" as a term doesn't really denote anything specific. It's really just a matter of personal perception and opinion. I can argue that Chuck Liddell has good/real Kung-fu. I can also argue that "older" is not always better.


"I agree and this is why I think that any MMA schools popping up these days won't be around very long.

I wouldn't count on that."

MMA is currently a trend. So I guess we'll see. I think Tiger Schulman snd schools like that will outlast them though. Unless of course, MMA schools become more McDojo-like (Cardio classes, Kids classes). But, schools that cater to one specific crowd generally don't get enough students to sustain themselves. It's like you said, alot of McDojos are now offering submission grappling classes. I think the market will get too saturated with it and in the end the little guy won't last and you'll be left with the McDojo that offers MMA.

[golden arhat]

"


And you base the "real deal" on the way "your teacher" taught it? You have to, since there's no "bible" of Kung-fu that says "this is the way it's meant to be done." Anyway, your argument is a too subjective and is typical in Kung-fu circles. "Traditional" is a subjective term and so is "real deal." Come to think of it, "Kung-fu" as a term doesn't really denote anything specific. It's really just a matter of personal perception and opinion. I can argue that Chuck Liddell has good/real Kung-fu. I can also argue that "older" is not always better.

.
what he bases the real deal on
is not just what his teacher taught
but on what he finds to REALLY work
which happens not to be what most ppl teach
so if kung fu is a martial art
then by definition what he does is real because its martial
and what most others do is fake because it does not work


MMA is currently a trend. So I guess we'll see. I think Tiger Schulman snd schools like that will outlast them though. Unless of course, MMA schools become more McDojo-like (Cardio classes, Kids classes). But, schools that cater to one specific crowd generally don't get enough students to sustain themselves. It's like you said, alot of McDojos are now offering submission grappling classes. I think the market will get too saturated with it and in the end the little guy won't last and you'll be left with the McDojo that offers MMA.

if you go into a boxing gym
u will see boxing that was not a TREND
why


well because ppl look in the ring and see 2 ppl boxing hard
and when they go to learn boxing this is exactly what they expect to be taught


now if ppl see mma in the ufc
they go to an mma gym and know straight away weither what they are learning is mcdojo bollocks
based on what it looks like in the ufc and pride

u say also that it wont be able to sustain itself based on it excluding a certain crowd

well i can say that the mixed martial arts have a pretty large crowd
because alot of ppl want and will continue to want to be a hard bas tard

[Kung Pao]

Spoonfeeding your students is, in reality, teaching them effectively. I think in Chinese way its is custom to keep your students in the dark. MMA has changed this thinking, and so students get better and ommre effective far quickleir in that. But there's less variation in MMA....a coulple of strikes, in effective combos, with less "form memory", more kicking ass memory.....the forms memory being kindof usless in my opinion. My crane teacher teaches more like a MMA school, but we often practice with MMA guys, so amybe that's why. I wish all kung fu was taught in combos. It's how I teach myself. I break donw forms to create combos, so it looks more like boxing I gueess. BUt it's pretty ****ed effective. Many crane strikes--I always like slapping eyes and lower abdomen. Many kungfu strikes don't work in gerneral, though. They might sometimes work but they're not high probability in my opinion. All kungfu should be tuaght more realistically. Only many people in kungfu aren't in it for the fighting so much as the coolness factor or something. like my teacher, my forms looks like a crane, my fighting looks like fighting, with a crane influence. All fighting should look like fighting.

When I announce it's time for sparring, theres usually only one out of twenty guys who runs for pads and is looking forward to it genuinely. Go to an MMA gym, and if you're not that same kind of guy as the 1/20 kung fu guy, you wouldn't last a second.

[Royal Dragon]

Many kungfu strikes don't work in gerneral, though

Reply]
I think that a lot of techniques in Kung Fu are missinterpereted, and they are actually throws. Trying to do them as strikes comes from the teacher NOT teaching what they are for, useing the spoon feeding argument, and the student just trying to make up something on thier own without the propper foundation.

[Kung Pao]

I mean pressure points/joint locks.

Technically, they should all work if doning properly. But even then, some people just don't respond. Everyone responds to qinna when done properly, but they're so rarely done proplerly in my experience. But pressure points are funny. Someitmes a pressure point is vital to executing a qinna quickly, especcially against a resisting opponent, but if you can't access it, you have to use a little muscle at times. It's frowned upon, but a necessary failsafe. I don't like throat strikes, b/c unless you're fighting a new guy, it's hard to get to the throat. Eye strikes often leave your ribs open, and are hard to get outside of chi sau.

Most fighters keep their hands high. It opens them up for kicks, but if they can take your kicks, it doesn't matter. A Thai boxer leaves much of his body open, in my opinion. But a Thai could take many of my strikes, I think, so it doens't matter as much (as I couldn't tak as many of his at a distance).

Fighting is a funny thing.

Edit: After reading it, I don't think this post makes any sense, lol.

Here's a better explanation: I've done pressure point strikes to a grown man that made him cry. Those same strikes made a fifteen year old girl look at me blankly, wondering why I was poking her.

Don't take that out of context, lol.

[neilhytholt]

I
Here's a better explanation: I've done pressure point strikes to a grown man that made him cry. Those same strikes made a fifteen year old girl look at me blankly, wondering why I was poking her.

Don't take that out of context, lol.

Yeah, we won't ask you why you're poking 15 year old girls. ;)

But a lot of women seem to be more flexible. In jujitsu, for example, locks that would have a guy tapping, trying them on women didn't seem to work too well.

[Royal Dragon]

When I was 14, I loved poking the 15 year old girls on my block!! :eek:

[Kung Pao]

Man, sometimes when you try to clear things up, you put your foot in your moth....lol....:o

[neilhytholt]

When I was 14, I loved poking the 15 year old girls on my block!! :eek:

When I was 14, I was on the yearbook staff and got to take all the pictures of the cheerleaders. Of course, they weren't interested in me.

Now they're mostly seriously overweight or obese, at least the ones that showed up to the 20 year reunion. I've never been around more fat in my entire life.

Anyways, talking about putting your foot in your mouth, I was in the hallway talking to one of my old friends, and said, "You've heard of mad cow disease, right? Well around here it's Fat Cow Disease."

Right at that moment a group of them was coming around the side so I couldn't see them, but they turned the corner right when I finished talking, and all gave me extremely angry looks.

[Kung Pao]

haahha

Actually, some of the cheerleaders at my ten year reunion caused myself and some buds of my to drool. didn't iplease our women much, that.

[neilhytholt]

haahha

Actually, some of the cheerleaders at my ten year reunion caused myself and some buds of my to drool. didn't iplease our women much, that.

The average increase in mass of the people at the reunion from 10 year to 20 year was at least 2x. Taking the elevator from the parking level to the 2nd floor, the elevator was groaning and I was checking the weight limits. We were probably over by 300 lbs. I was thinking I should have taken the stairs.

No way in hell I'm going to the 30 year unless they have it at ground level and no basement or parking garage underneath. The floor could give way.

[Kung Pao]

:d :d :d :d :d

[neilhytholt]

:d :d :d :d :d

Sorry. It's just that the title of this thread "Spoon feeding" was just too reminiscent of this event.

[Kung Pao]

I was 1 second away from posting on that pun.

[YouKnowWho]

what really happenes is that the teacher has not given a foundation to which a student CAN find an answer, so they try and figure it out on thier own, and end up being totally wrong. This is how we get so many hairbrained crazy apps in Kung Fu that get you in more trouble than not.
A young boy's father told him that a tea shop owner has great skill but the old man just didn’t teach anybody except his own family members. The boy went to that tea shop, sweep the floor, dump the trash, blow air into the stove,. Everyday he worked very hard without saying a word. One year and six months passed, one day the tea shop owner told the boy to stay for a while after the shop is closed. The old man then told that boy, "I know what you are up to. Now watch and I'll only show you once". He then demo a short form that only contain 5 moves. After that 10 seconds demo, the old man told the boy not to come back any more. The boy went home and grabbed his young brother and worked on those 5 moves all night long. Next day the boy brought his young brother and uses his brother as the dummy and demo the application that he had just figured out all by himself. The tea shop owner then said, "Can you use it?" Two months later there was a local tournament, the boy used those moves that he had figured out from the old man's sole form and won that tournament. After the tournament, one of the audiences removed his head cover (it was very sandy area) and that was the tea shop owner. The old men then spent 3 hours with that boy and explained every single detail to him.

That was the traditional way of CMA teaching. You offer a little bit information, if he is serious then you offer him some more. If he is not serious then you stop offer him more information. If he is serious and not intelligent enough then you don't want to waste any more of your time. If he is serious, intelligent but don't have combat spirit then you stop offer him more information. If he is serious, intelligent, and has combat spirit then you will teach him everything that you know.

Of course I'm talking about those who are wealth enough and no need to make living by teaching.

[Kung Pao]

But in every other martial art, you teach what you know. If we observed the same rules in boxing, nobody would progress. I know there's a cultural side to that form of teaching, but in America, you'd think the teaching curve would change. Honestly, I just don't see that mentality as being of much value. It makes for a good adage and story, but it's just talk. Do any of you sweep out shops to learn kung-fu? I still have to clean up the workstation in the warehouse where my teacher and I both work, but it's not teaching me how to defend myself, and he'd never say it was.lol. So that story is just some Confucious Say BS to me.lol. Chances are, the kid in the story is a ****ty sweeper, or a bad martial artist.

[golden arhat]

A young boy's father told him that a tea shop owner has great skill but the old man just didn’t teach anybody except his own family members. The boy went to that tea shop, sweep the floor, dump the trash, blow air into the stove,. Everyday he worked very hard without saying a word. One year and six months passed, one day the tea shop owner told the boy to stay for a while after the shop is closed. The old man then told that boy, "I know what you are up to. Now watch and I'll only show you once". He then demo a short form that only contain 5 moves. After that 10 seconds demo, the old man told the boy not to come back any more. The boy went home and grabbed his young brother and worked on those 5 moves all night long. Next day the boy brought his young brother and uses his brother as the dummy and demo the application that he had just figured out all by himself. The tea shop owner then said, "Can you use it?" Two months later there was a local tournament, the boy used those moves that he had figured out from the old man's sole form and won that tournament. After the tournament, one of the audiences removed his head cover (it was very sandy area) and that was the tea shop owner. The old men then spent 3 hours with that boy and explained every single detail to him.


That was the traditional way of CMA teaching. You offer a little bit information, if he is serious then you offer him some more. If he is not serious then you stop offer him more information. If he is serious and not intelligent enough then you don't want to waste any more of your time. If he is serious, intelligent but don't have combat spirit then you stop offer him more information. If he is serious, intelligent, and has combat spirit then you will teach him everything that you know.

Of course I'm talking about those who are wealth enough and no need to make living by teaching.

so then CMA shouldnt be taught at all then ?

"there are no secrets, only correct principles and understanding" -yip man

[Royal Dragon]

YouKnowWho,
Your story is cute and all, but in the same amount of time your boy was spending a year and half sweeping floors, the boys in MMA gyms were becomming very competant fighters.

Your story is the very reason CMA is going to die, or more realistically, for all practical purposes, has died except for some very small pockets here and there.

With Masters like Wai Lun Choi retired, and so few others actually teaching how to fight with their systems, or even KNOWING how to fight with thier systems, CMA is taking it's last breaths.

The original intent of forms was to document and preserve a style. Unfortunetly the entire concept has killed it. Very few even know the base applications to every move in thier forms. Most at best only know a few apps for each form and that is it. The schools fighting is a generic Kick boxing like practice with some added throws, NOT fighting with the styles they were supposedly taught.

There are some exceptions of course, but they are far, and few between. Even in those cases the training is horribly inefficent and it takes YEARS to accomlish what MMA gyms do in months.

[neilhytholt]

Y
Your story is the very reason CMA is going to die, or more realistically, for all practical purposes, has died except for some very small pockets here and there.


Just got back from running into the local Olympic style TKD guy in Quiznos. LOL. He remembered me from the last time I stopped by.

He said his business is down to less than 30% what it was 4 years ago. He doesn't think his place will stay in business that much longer -- maybe only a few more months. His dad is already back in Korea and he's thinking of going back as well. He said his dad still has a lot of students over there.

Do you think the dying out is going to be faster than most people think?

[YouKnowWho]

Your story is cute and all, but in the same amount of time your boy was spending a year and half sweeping floors, the boys in MMA gyms were becomming very competant fighters.
You miss the major part "La Fen Shen - blow air into the stove". Can you image how strong you could be if you can hold that handle, push, and pull in order to blow air into the stove for 1 year and 1/2? That push and pull training helped that boy to develop some good skill later on.

That boy's teacher owned a soy bean paste shop. That boy used to hold a big stick and stir the soy bean paste. The rotation movement also helps him to develop some good skill later on.

Besides "skill" there is "ability" (strength) which is also important. Some Chinese saying said, "Strength count for 10 techniques".

Even the MMA training will require some weigh lifting, long distance running besides gym work out.


CMA is taking it's last breaths.
I agree with you 100% on this. There is not much we can do there.

[neilhytholt]

(strength) which is as important.

Kids these days can go to the gym if they want to do weight lifting.

What do you think 'traditional' teachers business is really like these days? From what I've been told by martial arts teachers recently, it seems to be dropping faster than the housing market.

Anyways, this is the part that I don't like:

"The boy went home and grabbed his young brother and worked on those 5 moves all night long."

What if you don't have a good training partner? The purpose of the school is to provide training partners, right?

[Kung Pao]

Then lift some weights and learn the staff. Do you have to operate a stove in that manner anymore? I could say flipping hte switch on my electrical stove is teaching me how to active a pressure point, but wouldn't it be better, say, to activate a pressure point?

[Royal Dragon]

You miss the major part "La Fen Shen - blow air into the stove". Can you image how strong you could be if you can hold that handle, push, and pull in order to blow air into the stove for 1 year and 1/2?

Reply]
The ability to blow your teacher's stove for a year and a half does not a fighter make. It is total ineffciency, and a complete waste of time. The boy in your story could have bought a book on Shui Qiao, and accomplised the same thing in that year and a half that he got a small peek of his teacher's system.

Your story basically is a sad story of a colossial waste of time, and a fool who cowtowed to a master not willing to teach. Maybe in the day it was a nice romance, but today with so much skill being openly taught, only a fool would waste his time (a YEAR and a HALF!?!) just to *Maybe* earn a few techniques?

The boy could have gone to Ross, and be fighting within months.

[neilhytholt]

Your story basically is a sad story of a colossial waste of time, and a fool who cowtowed to a master not willing to teach. Maybe in the day it was a nice romance, but today with so much skill being openly taught, only a fool would waste his time (a YEAR and a HALF!?!) just to *Maybe* earn a few techniques?

The boy could have gone to Ross, and be fighting within months.

For Mr. Wang, who is retired, it doesn't really matter if he makes money off of a school or not.

For school owners, they'll probably be scrambling to add MMA programs or talk aging baby boomers into exercise programs.

Anyways, whatever ... once again, this conversation goes nowhere.

[Kung Pao]

Not to mention, his trrade skills were preempted by gas and electric stoves, and now he can't afford to learn his martial art of choice.

[YouKnowWho]

The time and place have changed. Old time stories may sound unreasonable to us but it did happened and we can just treat it as ancient history and used for reference only.

[Royal Dragon]

My whole point is that a large percentage of the Kung Fu community does not properly teach anymore, and hasn't for several generations.

In the research of my own style, I found that when it was developed, and for hundreds of years after it was taught technique and applications combined with footwork, enrty and strategy of applicatin combined with conditioning. Forms were for the teahcers or most advanced practioniers to codeify thier curriculem, and as solo practice to *Maintain* and refine thier mechancis. It was not in the least little bi used to develope the skills in the first place.

Back when our arts were used in real life, it took mear months to become proficient in useing the basics of our systems, not a year and a half of blowing the techer's stove to even be shown a couple of techniques.

The Chinese arts have become theatrical stage shows inspired by what was once highly functional fighting styles. So much knowledge has been lost that we now must reinvent the wheel in many, many cases.

If we wish to preserve what little is left, we need ot return to the methods of Old, before perfection form choreography became the goal.

The MMA example comes up, because they STILL use those old tried and true training methods...updated with modern training understandings.

[neilhytholt]

The time and place have changed. Old time stories may sound unreasonable to us but it did happened and we can just treat it as ancient history and used for reference only.

It's just that MA teachers these days don't usually fight. So how do you know if they are lying to you or not? If you stay with them for a couple of years or more, and they teach you only forms, how do you know if they actually have the apps?

It's a system that is too prone to abuse. You might find out after a while they really don't have the apps, and they start throwing practice swords around the room in an effort to save face.

[Kung Pao]

If we wish to preserve what little is left, we need ot return to the methods of Old, before perfection form choreography became the goal.

The MMA example comes up, because they STILL use those old tried and true training methods...updated with modern training understandings.

This is the point, isn't it?

I really like this post, Royal Dragon. I agree.

[neilhytholt]

This is the point, isn't it?

I really like this post, Royal Dragon. I agree.

Well, maybe he can talk some teachers into doing it. Hopefully he can.

[golden arhat]

You miss the major part "La Fen Shen - blow air into the stove". Can you image how strong you could be if you can hold that handle, push, and pull in order to blow air into the stove for 1 year and 1/2? That push and pull training helped that boy to develop some good skill later on.

That boy's teacher owned a soy bean paste shop. That boy used to hold a big stick and stir the soy bean paste. The rotation movement also helps him to develop some good skill later on.

Besides "skill" there is "ability" (strength) which is also important. Some Chinese saying said, "Strength count for 10 techniques".

Even the MMA training will require some weigh lifting, long distance running besides gym work out.


I agree with you 100% on this. There is not much we can do there.

in valetudo we do so much strength training you wouldnt believe

strength is not a prerequesite its something that comes through learning martial arts and putting serios effort in
if we all trained like that
no one would get anywhere

EFFORT IN, RESULTS OUT

not wait for years to learn something u dont know will work

[Oso]

methinks ya'll is confusing the words

attributes = strength & speed & coordination

skills = technically oriented things you can do


skills do have prerequisites

that's why fighting is at least 50% conditioning

you can teach almost anyone how to throw a front kick with a reasonable level of skill (accuracy, timing, positioning all figure in at this point.)

but unless they have good strength, speed and coordination, they will not be as effective with it.

yes, yes...the more they throw that kick, the stronger they will get with it...but only to a point.

have them do 100 squats, 100 bootstrappers and 100 lunges every other day and they will be more effective with it.

i think that some of the old stories were just simple methods of building the base attributes in small persons. there are better, more modern ways of building attributes.

[Royal Dragon]

Well, maybe he can talk some teachers into doing it. Hopefully he can.

Reply]
Doubt it, I don't think most really know anymore. Even the Shui Jiao guys are headed down that road with the reacent creation of forms for thier arts. How long will it be before even they are more concerned with how well a form is "Perfromed" VS. how well they fight?

[Royal Dragon]

i think that some of the old stories were just simple methods of building the base attributes in small persons. there are better, more modern ways of building attributes

Reply]
No, because each style already had training methods for that. They are there to help brain wash newbies to fool them into accepting rediculous levels of dedication in return for scraps...because most teachers don't know thier own styles. They only know forms choreagraphy, and unrelated, generic, san shou fighting.

[Oso]

not always.


btw, your trollfu is getting better ;)

[YouKnowWho]

Even the Shui Jiao guys are headed down that road with the reacent creation of forms for thier arts. How long will it be before even they are more concerned with how well a form is "Perfromed" VS. how well they fight?
You must talk about what happen in Taiwan right now. It's not true in the state.


yes, yes...the more they throw that kick, the stronger they will get with it...but only to a point.
I agree! Heavy skill training is still not the same as ability training. Punching and kicking in the air 10,000 times still cannot match with someone who works on heavy bag everyday. Skill will work when you are young. Only ability will last when you get old.

Form performers usually are lacking heavy bag training and I think that's the general problem that we are talking about here.

[Royal Dragon]

I'm glad to hear it's not happening in the states, I hope you guys keep it that way.

[Anthony]

"so if kung fu is a martial art
then by definition what he does is real because its martial
and what most others do is fake because it does not work"


Not even sure what youre saying exactly. I would say that Kung-fu is a martial art in name only. It's a "so-called" martial art. Anyway...you talk about "it" working. Well, there's no "it." Kung fu is not an inanimate object whose performance you can test (like a gun). It's like youre saying "Skill really works." There's only the practitioner. Where has Kung-fu "worked" anyway? And what techniques? Be specific.

"if you go into a boxing gym
u will see boxing that was not a TREND
why well because ppl look in the ring and see 2 ppl boxing hard
and when they go to learn boxing this is exactly what they expect to be taught "

Know alot of people who are making a living running a boxing gym do you?


"now if ppl see mma in the ufc
they go to an mma gym and know straight away weither what they are learning is mcdojo bollocks
based on what it looks like in the ufc and pride

u say also that it wont be able to sustain itself based on it excluding a certain crowd

well i can say that the mixed martial arts have a pretty large crowd
because alot of ppl want and will continue to want to be a hard bas tard"

It's a trend in the "buisiness" sense. Until a few years ago there were no MMA schools or even schools that offered it. Now, not only does every school claim to offer it but there are entire MMA schools popping up everywhere. MMA may continue to be around for a long time but the schools that teach it exclusively will die off sooner than later if they don't start doing Cardio-Karate and Kiddie Birthday parties. MMA is a competivive sport which pits you against someone else. Without that it wouldn't exist. When most people reach their 30's they either don't care for that anymore, are too old for it, or have better things to do. The MMA market is too limited to younger men only.

[golden arhat]

"so if kung fu is a martial art
then by definition what he does is real because its martial
and what most others do is fake because it does not work"


Not even sure what youre saying exactly. I would say that Kung-fu is a martial art in name only. It's a "so-called" martial art. Anyway...you talk about "it" working. Well, there's no "it." Kung fu is not an inanimate object whose performance you can test (like a gun). It's like youre saying "Skill really works." There's only the practitioner. Where has Kung-fu "worked" anyway? And what techniques? Be specific.

"if you go into a boxing gym
u will see boxing that was not a TREND
why well because ppl look in the ring and see 2 ppl boxing hard
and when they go to learn boxing this is exactly what they expect to be taught "

Know alot of people who are making a living running a boxing gym do you?


"now if ppl see mma in the ufc
they go to an mma gym and know straight away weither what they are learning is mcdojo bollocks
based on what it looks like in the ufc and pride

u say also that it wont be able to sustain itself based on it excluding a certain crowd

well i can say that the mixed martial arts have a pretty large crowd
because alot of ppl want and will continue to want to be a hard bas tard"

It's a trend in the "buisiness" sense. Until a few years ago there were no MMA schools or even schools that offered it. Now, not only does every school claim to offer it but there are entire MMA schools popping up everywhere. MMA may continue to be around for a long time but the schools that teach it exclusively will die off sooner than later if they don't start doing Cardio-Karate and Kiddie Birthday parties. MMA is a competivive sport which pits you against someone else. Without that it wouldn't exist. When most people reach their 30's they either don't care for that anymore, are too old for it, or have better things to do. The MMA market is too limited to younger men only.


maybe we dont understand each other
if you are talking about the buisness sense then i have no opinion on that as i do not live in the usa so i cant make an informed comment

here in the uk MMA is not very popular there are about 4 schools in the manchester area
moxt mixed martial artists here are also seasoned streetfighters
so not just anyone can say they do valetudo or MMA

in the manchester area also boxing is not unpopular
i have several friends who are boxers ,and their clubs are quite big

here the ifc is very popular
but the only real respected martial arts
are
muay thai
ju jutsu
valetudo
wing chun
and boxing

almost every other kung fu or karate club isn't given a second thought even though there schools are around in abundance
they are just there

now i can safeley say that MMA "as i know it" is no trend

i think this may also be down to our culture

in america your violence culture is more firearms based

here our violence is more hand to hand and improvised weapons violence (due to stricter laws in knives and guns) we have this concept of "hard" and just generally MMA'ers are thought of as hard wing chun less so
but all the rest are also thought of as such

mma cant have this mcdojo style thing
because then it would cease being MMA altogether