The Role Of Stance trainning....

[Adventure427]

I got a few ideas from my post entitled "Stances in real fights?" ....but they were clearly geared towards a different topic so i hope this thread is cool with everyone and isn't too much of a repeat...

The Question: What do each of you feel the role of stance trainning is? Reason i ask is because i like to practice the stances, and just want to know why i'm doing it. I've heard of lots of reasons to. It's just been years, looking for a refresher. Also any tips on doing it?

I recently was able to hold the horse stance for 9minutes (whew) :D I can probably go even longer now as that was a couple to a few weeks ago. Thanks for comments in advance everyone :D

[zhangxihuan]

i think stance training mainly has to do with building leg strength and endurance, as well as agility. The stronger your legs are the better/faster/stronger your kicks will be. It also is a good discipline to allow you to accept more pain.

[X_plosion]

i think stance training mainly has to do with building leg strength and endurance, as well as agility. The stronger your legs are the better/faster/stronger your kicks will be. It also is a good discipline to allow you to accept more pain.

Second the motion.

Many beginners who come in from a sedentary lifestyle often don't have the joint strength in their knees that is necessary for strenuous training. Thus, there's often a need for time to build up the strength via standing in the stances for progressively longer time periods, then learning how to move in them and to smoothly shift from one stance to another. It also helps the student understand body movement mechanics.

[dougadam]

I have been training for over 30 years, and I still do horse stance.

[Adventure427]

How do you feel it helps you dougadam? What do you feel it gives you that you would not otherwise have? I like the old stories like the 1000pound horse stance, and holding it for as long as an incense burns....and all the great stories, but i really wonder what the practical benefits are (hence why im posting this). I appretiate the comments so far

[ling hou]

We use words like Mao bu, Ma bu, Gong bu and on and on and on with the BU.
I think that the word "Bu" was translated wrong.

Bu [bu4] pace; step i.e. march step, goose step [zheng4 bu4]; learn to walk [xue2 bu4]

So based on the way that bu is used (in Chinese) it has nothing to do with holding a stance for a long period of time to prove that you can hold it. When I was in China I asked many people about holding stances for significant amount of time. Everyone informed me that if you could hold a Bu for 30 seconds to a min then that was long enough. The real question was can you move from bu to bu indefinitely with perfect form?

The stories of holding a stance for long period of time were a weed out process. These practices were used to see if the potential student was willing to do what was asked. Because knowledge is kept very guarded in China, even today, people continually test your character. Chinese are constantly examining your dedication, resolve and what type of person you are.

I kind of look at it like swimming, I cannot float but I can swim (being too negative buoyant). Well, floating is good, but not if you are trying to move in the water. Stances are great to build some muscle and develop some endurance, but learning to move and transition from place to place is much more important.

Also, traditionally stances were done much closer than they are done now (with some exceptions). Ma bu (horse stance) was traditionally done at shoulder width. The reason that most people cannot do a level Ma Bu (thighs parallel to the floor, at shoulder width) is not lack of strength but lack of flexibility in the hips. Try doing a wall sit, you can hold it but take away the wall and it becomes very hard because of the balance issue.

The exceptions are styles like Hong Jia (hung gar) which has its roots after Xiaolin (shaolin) with the Red Boat Society. They would practice in the hulls of rocking junks, making their stances wider for greater stability.

Kurt Yungeberg
www.meridiangatekungfu.com

[Water Dragon]

Stance are isometric exercises. They have their place, but most people tend to use them. I've heard isometrics should compose about 30 % of leg training, That menas do your stances, but squat, stretch, and run too. They all have a place in training.

[SevenHands]

One thing I've wondered. Through training stances (more specifically the horse stance) is it possible to overdevelop the outer quadricep muscles ultimately leading to a muscular imbalance? I wonder this because I used to enjoy the horse stance until I started having a pain in my right knee. I later realized, through the help of physiotherapy and knee specialist that my medialis (inner quadricep) was underdeveloped causing the kneecap to track incorrectly (which I am now trying to fix through various exercises). I should really start a new thread for this question, with more depth.

[Water Dragon]

Naw, stances won't do much to put muscle on, or increase strength. Isometrics train you to 'lock' the muscle. You use this when you change direction quickly like in basketball, or when you're stopping an incoming force like blocking in football or a grappling situation. You still want to do things like squats and deadlifts to gain size and strength, and stretching to keep you flexible.

Most people do waaay too much stance training. I've heard about 30 % of your total leg training is about right. If you do a horse stance properly a minute is a good achievement.

[Royal Dragon]

Stance training is to develop your structure/Skeletal alignment first and foremost. The secondary benifits are strength (At first), but once you can hold 1-2 minutes there is endurance.

Someone above mentioned developing the knees as well. Since many Kung Fu movements are hard on the knees, stance training is important to develope them as an injury prevention conditioning regment.

The horse stance alone is not enough. It is just the starter stance. You really need to hold all of the major stances used in your system, and holding a point in the middle of your transitions is good too.

I think those commenting holding each stance 1-2 minutes is enough have never really done serious stance work, and don't know the bennifits. You really should be able to hold each on for 5-10 minutes each. If you work just the 5 most common stances, there is a good 1 hour workout right there, NOT counting your warmup and stretchout.

[Royal Dragon]

You still want to do things like squats and deadlifts to gain size and strength, and stretching to keep you flexible.

Reply]
Yes, you got it! It's all part of the package. You really should not short any one segment of it.

[Iman01]

Stance training is very important. The strength and balance it helps build is very valuable.

When throwing, I can tell the difference between a person that can do 2 min of horse stance and a person that can do 10 min of horse stance. The 10 min guy can sink to nullify throws much more easily than the 2 min guy.

[Royal Dragon]

That is due to haveing better structural alignment.

[Water Dragon]

Any horse that can be held for ten minutes is not a stance worth holding. Most CMA guys would be a lot better off doing wall sits than horse stances.

[Royal Dragon]

Wall sits (Roman chiars I assume) don't build your structure very well. They teach you to lean back against the wall...which is the opposite of what you need in a fight.

A good 10 minute horse stance, or even longer, like 20-40 minutess will really develop not only the propper structure, but your ablity to hold it in place even when tired. This is especially so if you have partners pushing and pulling on you form various directions during the practice.


The same goes for all stances...you should be able to hold at least the major ones 20 - 30 minutes if you want to really see and feel what it is they do, and why we do them.

This translates into being difficult to uproot, or take down when under pressure.

[Water Dragon]

No, it really doesn't.

[Royal Dragon]

Ok there...when we have our fight, I'll show you what I mean...when will you be in Chicago next anyway? Don't you have family here you need to visit sometime?

[Water Dragon]

Man, are you still on that bull $hit? No offense Gian, but when I make it back home, I'm gonna have better things to do than run up to the North suburbs to play Kung Fu Hero with you.

[Royal Dragon]

But I was looking forward to crossing hands..... :(

[Becca]

No, it really doesn't.
Yes, it does. Not to feed RD's ego, but I have been told by many of my grappling partners that they know when I'm working my KF stance training by how hard it is to throw me. I root better when I keep up on the stances.

[Water Dragon]

Yes, it does. Not to feed RD's ego, but I have been told by many of my grappling partners that they know when I'm working my KF stance training by how hard it is to throw me. I root better when I keep up on the stances.


Naw, it doesn't. Stances are definately the reason you're defending throws better, but not because of structure, rooting, or alignment. There's better ways to get that stuff.

Structure, alignment, and rooting all depend on incoming force. After all, you need something to align against, a force being applied against your structure, something for the root to connect to. If you haven't, i recommend reading Mike Sigman. The guy can be an @ss, but he knows his stuff and explains it beautifully. Tim Cartmell breaks it down pretty good as well.

Stances are isometric in nature. Here's a good definition of what that means:

Isometric Contraction—Muscle Actively Held at a Fixed Length

A third type of muscle contraction, isometric contraction, is one in which the muscle is activated, but instead of being allowed to lengthen or shorten, it is held at a constant length. An example of an isometric contraction would be carrying an object in front of you. The weight of the object would be pulling downward, but your hands and arms would be opposing the motion with equal force going upwards. Since your arms are neither raising or lowering, your biceps will be isometrically contracting.

The force generated during an isometric contraction is wholly dependant on the length of the muscle while contracting. Maximal isometric tension (Po) is produced at the muscle's optimum length, where the length of the muscle's sarcomeres are on the plateau of the length-tension curve.

This is why you want thighs parallel to the floor on a horse. It stretches the quadricep the most. If you start reading the studies, you're gonna find that isometrics tend to build strength at the ends of the muscle, but not throughout the belly like lifting weights does. Thus, the infamous "tendon strength" you hear so much mysterious babble about.

You use this stuff whenever you perform a motion that requires you to tense a muscle without flexing. changing directions quickly while running, shooting a jump shot, blocking in football, and yes, blocking a throw. That's what your grappling partners are picking up on.

If you train right, you can get all the results you need in under 3 minutes 3-4 times a week. Work it in to your daily stretching routine if you want, but don't make it out to be more than what it is, a training tool. Holding a proper stance for over 5 or 10 minutes is kinda like bench pressing 700 pounds. It can be done, but if you wont have time to train much else if that's your goal.

[Mr Punch]

Becca and RD are standing in the incorrect.

Water Dragon spent a short time standing in the incorrect and now owns the correct.

[WinterPalm]

Naw, it doesn't. Stances are definately the reason you're defending throws better, but not because of structure, rooting, or alignment.

I stopped reading after this...are you sure?

[Water Dragon]

If this helps anyone, here is what I would consider a 'proper ma bu'

http://alexng.net/fsuwushu/reference/horse2.jpg

This is not:

http://www.dekungfu.com/images/sifu/Horse%20Stance.jpg

Holding the first picture for 1 minute will give infinitely better results than holding the second for ten minutes. Try both, you'll feel the difference immediately.

[Ravenshaw]

I'm confused. Are we talking about horse only as an exercise? That first photo is a nice exercise, but a horrible stance. I tend to keep the two (exercise vs. utility) separate. I don't even use horse as my isometric exercise anymore.

[Water Dragon]

I'm confused. Are we talking about horse only as an exercise? That first photo is a nice exercise, but a horrible stance. I tend to keep the two (exercise vs. utility) separate. I don't even use horse as my isometric exercise anymore.


Well yeah. I've never learned stances as direct fighting stances like a lot of people seem to do. You do very horselike things whenever you drop to block a throw, or go in for any type of hip throw, or even throwing drop elbows a la Muay Thai. But I never try to literally do the stance, that would get me thrown quick. Most of what I get from stancework I use in footwork and entries. I have a helluva reaching O Soto from doing Cat Stance. But I'm using it only as a transition as I reach in and hook his leg with mine.

And to answer the structure question, try this. Take a cat stance, 95 % back weighted. Get the high as close to parallel as possible. You should be lightly uncomfortable, but not forcing. Put your right hand on the wall and try to 'push into the wall with your back foot. Maintain that connection. That's your P'eng path and that's where structure and alignment come into play.

[Royal Dragon]

This is why you want thighs parallel to the floor on a horse. It stretches the quadricep the most. If you start reading the studies, you're gonna find that isometrics tend to build strength at the ends of the muscle, but not throughout the belly like lifting weights does. Thus, the infamous "tendon strength" you hear so much mysterious babble about.

Reply]
Wow, your time in the Chinese arts hasn't taught you much has it? I really figured you'd actually know somethig comming form the background you do.

First, building strength at the "Ends" of the muscles? LOL I am actually shocked you belive crap like that in this day and age. Dude, you can't build ONE part of a muscle, or the other. EVERY exercise developes the entire muscle, as well as the joints and bones it's connected to. You cannot put a load ONLY on the neds of a muscle, and have what is inbetween be soft. Like every thing else, Holding developes the whole muscle....let me gues, you still believe in *Upper & Lower* Abbs too .. don't you?....

As for your pictures, no wonder you are so misinformed about what Stances do, those are the worst stances I have ever seen. You are ONLY supposed to go that low, when you can go that low correctly, with a tucked tailbone, stright spine rounded shoulders, and asunk chest (Do you even remember those corrections?)

Loook at my avatar, see how the back is? Tail bone is tucked, shoulders are rounded, chest is sunk. THAT is how you are supposed to hold your stances. It's way harder than the pathetic examples you posted, and you can't go low if you can't maintain those requirements.

You start high, and go ONLY as deep as you can maintain the requirements, and then slowly over a long period of time you can sink lower, and lower. eventually you cna get the thighs parelle, but when you do, your structure is correct, and you are building tremendious rooting abilities. You also need to be able to move through those stances and maintian the structure all through the motion....holding the stance is just the first part of it. That is why Taiji guys move so slow. It's to make sure they can maintain the requirements built in the stances through the transitions.

In training like this, the longer you can hold, the better.

In the silly Chung Moo Quan stance you posted, you are wasteing your time doing it at all, you'd be better off hitting the leg press machine...

[Royal Dragon]

And to answer the structure question, try this. Take a cat stance, 95 % back weighted. Get the high as close to parallel as possible. You should be lightly uncomfortable, but not forcing. Put your right hand on the wall and try to 'push into the wall with your back foot. Maintain that connection. That's your P'eng path and that's where structure and alignment come into play.

Reply]
Yup, but you are never going to get it with the stances you posted above. You have to do it like the way I am in my Avatar.

[Water Dragon]

All right, Bro. I disagree with you, and you disgree with me. There's no point in either of us continuing to babble about this.

[Black Jack II]

In a sense Royal your right that there is just the one muscle, but and I am not talking for Water here, that strength training with isometric contractions prodcues large but highly angle-specific adaptations

I think its these angel specific adaptions people are talking about. Either way I believe your far better off hitting free weights and using conventional modern training for legs power, squats, deads, lunges.

[Water Dragon]

Black Jack, I was reading on article a while back on strength training for athletes. The author recommended using isometrics for about 30 % of your exercises. I basically do a horse stance, and a cat stance, very low for my lower body, and for upper body, I lower myself halfway in a pul up positon and hold, and do the same with dips. I'm just coming back off being sick, but I can feel the difference under the bar already. Try it for a couple weeks at the end of your workout. It takes about 5-7 minutes at the end of a session. It works better after you've already smoked your body.

[Black Jack II]

Try it for a couple weeks at the end of your workout. It takes about 5-7 minutes at the end of a session. It works better after you've already smoked your body.

I will give it a whirl, I am heading out to the gym in about a half hour. Sounds kinda like what I do between sets of bench but with pushups and static holds.

The remark about stance training is not to degrade any form of excercise in specific, excercise is always a good thing, its just about people doing this very drawn out stance holding that you tend to see, when you look at the intense time some invest on this training, I think on a contextual scale it might be better for them to devote it to weight training.

Cheers,

[Water Dragon]

I think it's better to do both. Law of diminishing returns. If I do some stance holding, I get a lot of benefit. If I do some weight training, I get a lot of benefit, If I stretch regularly I get a lot of benefit. The more I focus on each, the less return I get. So I figure if I do a little of all 3, I'm maximazing my training time. (and I don't have near as much as I'd like) So far, I'm very pleased with the results.

[Royal Dragon]

I generally switch off, one session i hold, the next I do a more modern method.

I do mix it up too, like when I do my circute, I will do 4 exercises, pullups, pushups, a core exercise, and a back therapy exercise (I added that, the circute was originaly only 3). I do 3 sets, on the third set, I do a holding version of everything. I willl hold a pull up like WD does, I do a pushup hold thhat is similar to holding the ball in Taiji, only laying down on the arms to build the strructure. This one is really tough because you have to really struggle to maintain the requirements. The core training is a Hollow hold from my daughter's gymnastcs system..also a structure building exercise. It's really good, so i added it in. And last, I hold a back therapy exercise.

Once I have done all the sets of 4 exercises, I do them one more time at half or 2/3s the reps. It ends up being 6 sets of 4 exercises. Each set is a different version of the exercise. For example, the first is standard pushups (Or a bench press when I'm lifting), the next set would be triangle pushups, and the third was origiannll circle pushups, but I am laying on the ball right now instead.

The only odd ball is the back therapy exercises, I keep the first 3 sets the same exercise and then mix it up in the second 3 sets. The back therapy exercises are also the only ones I don't drop the number of reps in the second 3 sets. They are generally easier for me and i sometimes add weights to my arms when i do them.

[Royal Dragon]

I think it's better to do both. Law of diminishing returns. If I do some stance holding, I get a lot of benefit. If I do some weight training, I get a lot of benefit, If I stretch regularly I get a lot of benefit. The more I focus on each, the less return I get. So I figure if I do a little of all 3, I'm maximazing my training time. (and I don't have near as much as I'd like) So far, I'm very pleased with the results.

Reply]
I have found similar. I tend to focus more on one or the other for cycles, then shift the focus to another for a cycle as soon as I see the returns diminishig. I condition more in winter, and do more cardio in the summer for example.

[Royal Dragon]

In a sense Royal your right that there is just the one muscle, but and I am not talking for Water here, that strength training with isometric contractions prodcues large but highly angle-specific adaptations

Reply]
I think that has to do with the muscle groups kicking in that are supporting the main action. Thta is why you don't only hold a horse stance, you hold a variety of stances.

I think its these angel specific adaptions people are talking about. Either way I believe your far better off hitting free weights and using conventional modern training for legs power, squats, deads, lunges.

Reply]
If your goal is raw strength, yes, you are right. Stances don't seem to build much strength once you can hold them past a minute or two...it's all muscular endurance after that. You do get better structural alignement, and a greater, and greater resistance to haveing it compromised the longer you hold though. That translates into being able to resist takedowns, as many takedowns require the structure to be compromised first, before they will work..

[Becca]

... If you train right, you can get all the results you need in under 3 minutes 3-4 times a week. Work it in to your daily stretching routine if you want, but don't make it out to be more than what it is, a training tool....
Or wandering up and down the warehouse doing stance training, duck walk and other things most people quit doing in grade school. Man, do I get some odd looks. :D

[Water Dragon]

lol. You need to videotape yourself doing that and let Master Killer post it on the main forum.

[Becca]

Well yeah. I've never learned stances as direct fighting stances like a lot of people seem to do...

Sad, sad, sad. No wonder why you don't realize the value of stance work.:(

[Black Jack II]

Sad, sad, sad. No wonder why you don't realize the value of stance work

Maybe he just realizes the difference between form and function.

Form is just how you look, a movement such as the intergrated dimensions of a stance or how your body presents itself to a viewer. Function is how you actually perform, by the success of a application of a move.

Let's not even get into the fact that in a non-sparring encounter your stance is whatever you are in at the time.

[Royal Dragon]

Form is just how you look, a movement such as the intergrated dimensions of a stance or how your body presents itself to a viewer. Function is how you actually perform, by the success of a application of a move.

Reply]
Umm, arent form and function supposed to be the same? For a bow stance for instance, it's used in throws and takedowns done with Diagonal cut. The bow stance is identical in the take down as it is used when practicing diagonal cut. There is no difference between form and function.

[Black Jack II]

No there not really the same. Neither really messes with the other to much but function based training will lead to proper form more often than proper form based training insures the ability to function. Function is the most important element of the two. Excellent form is actually the product of good function.

Look at how different martial arts train. Take boxing for example, which is a function based combative sport system. The same techniques, give or take, can be found in a number of other traditional based fighting methods, like long fist or karate. The main emphasis is on being able to apply the function, which are the techniques, often under duress.

In boxing there are no deep set forms or set in stone by route movements and the training emphasizes actual application in a contested enviroment. Because of this functionality in its training, where one has to always ask themselves if they can pull it off for real, its no big suprise that in a exchange of hands, boxers tend to get the upper hand vrs some other traditional fistic systems.

Your main goal in training should be to get yourself the attributes you need to be functional. That should be your main principle. Good form is a part of that toolbox to get there but its not the end in itself. Everyone here has seen the player that looks amazing on the heavybag, or really athletic in their forms and stance work, the guy who can blow throw energy drills like a pro, but when you put him in a sparring context, where do all these fancy techniques vanish?

[Water Dragon]

Form is just how you look, a movement such as the intergrated dimensions of a stance or how your body presents itself to a viewer. Function is how you actually perform, by the success of a application of a move.

Reply]
Umm, arent form and function supposed to be the same? For a bow stance for instance, it's used in throws and takedowns done with Diagonal cut. The bow stance is identical in the take down as it is used when practicing diagonal cut. There is no difference between form and function.


This may be the most incorrect post of the year.

[Royal Dragon]

How? The bow done in the Diagonal Cut is the same in the drill, as we used it in the throw. I really don't see any difference at all, other than adjusting the hieght up or down to match various opponents.

And if IS different, you are doing something wrong...maybe that is why your throw does not work, or maybe you are doing your drill wrong...

Train like you fight and all that.

[Water Dragon]

lol. It's my best throw.

[Royal Dragon]

Then you should make sure your drill is like the way you actually use it. To do it different would be wrong.

[Water Dragon]

You're really sumthin else, Gian.

[Royal Dragon]

What am I saying that is so wrong?

[Water Dragon]

Bro, you don't understand any of the training. You just made up your mind that you think you know what's going on. The form you're talking about is for the entry step, the kuzushi. It's a drill. The same shape can be used for different things, but you gotta focus on what you want. You don't train the stance and then go fight like that.

[Royal Dragon]

Bro, you don't understand any of the training.

Reply]
Ahh, my good Soaked, Draconian, Serpent, friend, I think I understand the training better than you do...after all I'm not the one that posted that pic of the crapiest horse stance to be found and sited it as an example of the correct!

>>You just made up your mind that you think you know what's going on. The form you're talking about is for the entry step, the kuzushi. It's a drill.

Reply]
No kidding!!! However, it uses the Bow stance the same way as it is also held in static practice. Which is why I am siteing it as my example.

The same shape can be used for different things, but you gotta focus on what you want. You don't train the stance and then go fight like that.

Reply]
But the stance IS used in a fight, exactly the way you hold it when you train it!! It's just in training it is held a long time (train hard, fight easy and all that), and when in use it's only a split second. Reguardless of how long you hold it, the posture is the same. How is it you cannot see that?

[SevenStar]

Sad, sad, sad. No wonder why you don't realize the value of stance work.:(

why is that sad? in judo and bjj, you will do no stance training. yet, in their takedowns and throws, you will see many of the stances cma guys train. stance training has its uses, but in the grand scheme of things, it's unnecessary.

[Black Jack II]

stance training has its uses, but in the grand scheme of things, it's unnecessary.

That is basically what I stated, but its easier to fall under some illusions I guess.

[kwaichang]

Yes there are upper and lower rectus abdominus Muscles, also holding stance does isolate an area of the muscle known as the Z band. That is an area located at the tendinous junction with the muscle belly, also it strengthenes the Ligaments and the tendon bone connection. Thus causing greater contractile strength and stronger joints. Since stance work is a Closed chain activity it helps to work the agonist and antagonistic muscles together. So the joint is more stable and less prone to injury. SO STRONGER KICKS AND PUNCHES ETC. KC
PS stance training is very necessary if you want to be a well rounded MA. of any type.

[Water Dragon]

Reply]
Ahh, my good Soaked, Draconian, Serpent, friend, I think I understand the training better than you do...after all I'm not the one that posted that pic of the crapiest horse stance to be found and sited it as an example of the correct!


Why is that horse crappy?

[Royal Dragon]

It breaks all the principles. The shoulders are pulled back, NOT rounded, the chest is puffed out, NOT Sunk, the back is arched, NOT straight, the posterior is stuck out, NOT tail bone tucked.

It basically not only violates every basic principal, but actually does them all wrong to the extreme.

An expert such as yourself, who knows everything, has studied Tai Chi, Shui Jiao as well as non Chinese arts *Should* know this stuff...it's day one material, and you have been standing right next to me when MJ made those very corrections on both of us.... :rolleyes:

[Royal Dragon]

Although these pics of me have thier flaws, they at least adhear to the basics principals.

1 Shoulders are rounded.

2 Chest is sunk

3 spine is stright, not arched back.

4 tail bone is tucked.

5 no joints are fully locked out.

Some schools seem a bit less picky on the tucking the tail bone issue, and prefer to focus on keeping the knee back to the toes, but I have yet to see one where you are *Told* to stick the posterior out like the pictures you posted.

For reference, I included the example you posted as the ipmideomy of the Correct.

[Royal Dragon]

also holding stance does isolate an area of the muscle known as the Z band. That is an area located at the tendinous junction with the muscle belly,

Reply]
How exactly does it do that? You would need to add an anchor point to bone between that, and the muscle belly to isolate the tension to that specific location. Unless you are talking about a muscle with multiple heads, what you are claiming is not posible from even an engineering standpoint.

[Royal Dragon]

Oh WD, and one more thing, it's kind of hard to see because of the angle, but if you look close at your example, you can see how his legs are angled? His knees are pulled in towards his center a bit, indicateing he is useing a way too wide of a horse stance. That inward pressure is really bad on the knees(If you remember, one of MJ's corrections more perticular to me, not you). Its way worse than letting them move in front of the toes.

Should I go on? I do have a few more critques as to why your example is totally wrong...

Really, posting that pic as an example of your knowledge and expertise, while demeaning mine in the same thread is worse than siteing me as an example for good grammer and spelling...and then demeaning an English teacher...

[Water Dragon]

Somehow, I knew you were gonna say that, Gian. Yup, the back IS arched. The shoulders Are pulled back, and the chest IS puffed out. Kinda like this:

http://www.mercola.com/2004/jul/31/fear_the_squat_fig09.jpg

And this

http://www.naturalphysiques.com/images/squat.jpg

And this

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/squat.jpg

And this

http://spidersport.com/photos/exercises/one-side-deadlift_galya_2.jpg

And this

http://www.eigenkracht.nl/media/files/deadlift-s.jpg

And this

http://www.scholastic.com/coach/co3COACH2005/co32005_2_Hex_Bar_Deadlift.JPG

http://www.icon.fi/~nagai/images/ogoshi.jpg

So no, I'm not fulfillig your requirements, but I am training my back to make the strongest anatomical shape possible. Less risk of injury.

Train how you want, Gian. But please don't other people they are wrong because they are doing something you apparently can't comprehend.

[SevenStar]

Yes there are upper and lower rectus abdominus Muscles, also holding stance does isolate an area of the muscle known as the Z band. That is an area located at the tendinous junction with the muscle belly, also it strengthenes the Ligaments and the tendon bone connection. Thus causing greater contractile strength and stronger joints. Since stance work is a Closed chain activity it helps to work the agonist and antagonistic muscles together. So the joint is more stable and less prone to injury. SO STRONGER KICKS AND PUNCHES ETC. KC
PS stance training is very necessary if you want to be a well rounded MA. of any type.

that sounds good. really.

there are upper and lower abs, but as everyone should know, the abs are one sheet of muscle. it is physiologically impossible to work one and not the other.

the z bands work in conjunction with skeletal muscle. while I don't know if weight training does anything for z bands specifically, I know it benefits skeletal muscle.

from a strength training perspective, stance training is inferior to weights. stance training cannot offer progressive resistance, so over time it becomes anendurance exercise, not one of strength.

squats also improve joint stability. and stronger kicks.

boxers, wrestlers, thai boxers, mma guys, judoka... NONE of these do any formal stance training, so how is it that you can assert that stance training is a necessity for all well rounded MAists?

[Royal Dragon]

Umm dummy, these two examples you posted are adhearing to the principals I am talking about, AND THEY AREN'T EVEN DOING HORSE STANCE!!!.



http://www.naturalphysiques.com/images/squat.jpg

http://www.eigenkracht.nl/media/files/deadlift-s.jpg

Not that those examples even apply to what we are talking about, totally different issueing of force going on here...

You say this,

But please don't other people they are wrong because they are doing something you apparently can't comprehend.

When you are telling me "I don't understand the training, I don't comprehend", and basically talking down to me, and you can't even post a series of examples without conflicitng between my point, and yours!!

AND you post pics of a type of power issueng not really even seen in martial arts. You can't even throw someone well like that!! It just a straight up and down motion, throws use an acrhing, type power!!

And you say *I* don't comprehend this stuff??

Keep smoking whatever it is you Smoke dude, it's got you nice and isolated from the real observable world!!

[Water Dragon]

OK Bro. Go put 250 on your back, tuck your spine and squat. Go tuck your spine and do a hip throw. You do that and I'll keep following the advice of my coaches, and we'll both be happy.

[Royal Dragon]

Hey dingaling!

Look, even old school Karate doesn't puff the chest, pull the shoulders back, stick the butt out, and they certianly don't arch the back!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3doBN7ad8U&mode=related&search=

And look close, even though they aren't fully following the principals, they ARE leaning towards them, especially the shoulders!! They seem more neutral, but defenetly not doing it YOUR way!!

They are neutral but leaning in the direction of what I am telling you.

[Water Dragon]

Did you just use a 1940's movie scene to prove your point?

[Royal Dragon]

Hey, look at THIS clip, NO back arching, chest puffing, pulling back the shoulers or sticking the ass out here!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryxByDCdC64

In fact, this is pretty much TOTALLY following the principals I am describing!


Who doesn't understand this stuff now??

[kwaichang]

Weight training does train the muscles but LE weight training exercises are not safer for the joint than stance training. MARTIAL ARTS MUSCLE is different than weight lifter body builder muscle. With weights you train the fast twitch with stance the slow twitch or endurance muscle. If you kick once or twice weights are fine but with stance you develope strength an endurance. Most fights require more than one kick or punch. Also stance is more of an isometric contraction not concentric and essentric like weights isometric has been known to strengthen muscles better than weights thus the new SUPER SLOW METHODS. as far as anatomical strength of the spine the natural curve of the lumbar is good for everyday activities but for Chi Circulation and core strengthening during certain activities like punching and Kicking a posterior tilt of the pelvis is more stable. KC
PS there are 4 layers of abdominal muscles. Transversus, internal , external obliques , rectus abdominis

[Royal Dragon]

OH!! Lets look at THIS ONE

No back arching, chest puffing, pulling back shouders and sticking the ass out here either!! Not even in the little bit of stand up that there is!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJHMwB2RXic&mode=related&search=

Dare I say? Rounded shoulders? Tucked Tail bone? Back straight???

OMG IT IS!!!!!!!

[Royal Dragon]

HOLY SMOKES!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7dIKNLBYWM&mode=related&search=

Again, in what little stand up there is, they agree with MEEEE!!!!!

[Water Dragon]

Gian, you posted a movie, a form, and two MMA fights to back up an argument about a stationary training drill that gets used way too much, IMO. I'm trying to argue for stances as an auxiliary training methods combined with weights and done to get very specific benefits, and I have no idea what your trying to argue after all these pages besides, "his butt's not tucked"

[Royal Dragon]

AHHH HAA Fedor agrees with me too!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I-6UVNpAXo

The only place he arches his back is when he does chin ups.

He even sinks his chest and tucks his tail bone...just not as much as a Chinese stylist.

No back arching here, shoulders stay ROUND, not arched!!

What? Fedor is one of the best fighters in the world? AND he does what Royal Dragon is saying, and NOT you??

Can it possibly be???

Ha Ha Ha hA HA!!

[Royal Dragon]

Whos is not tucked?

No one is Arching like you say is right there buddy! I don't see any shoulders pulled back, only rounded. Even the guys who don't hold the structure fully the way I say, lean in my direction.

We are arguing stances are for building proper structure, the very same structure all these guys use....

You are saying no, it uses all sorts of wierd arching and is used for strength or conditioning...wHich is a SIDE effect, not the sole purpose. That clearly shows you don't even know what the correct stance is, or what it is even for! How can you jude if it's good training if you don't even know how to do it correctly, and thearfore can't possibly judge if it's useful or not?

And THEN you say *I* don't understand the training? The original argument is Mute after that comment..

[Royal Dragon]

I'm trying to argue for stances as an auxiliary training methods combined with weights and done to get very specific benefits

Reply]
No, that went out the window a long time ago, now you are arguing that I don't know what I am talking about, when I infact Do, and at the same time you have demostrated you are totally clueless and have no room to be speaking down to me.

[Water Dragon]

Man, this thread somehow turned into a traffic accident. Gian, you haven't posted any examples where what I'm arguing would even to come into play. There's no hip throws going on in any of this. Do you think you're smart because you point out these guys are not sticking their bums out most of the time? They're not tucking their spines under either. They're simply not sticking their bums out. That's most likely because they're not doing anything that requires them to load anything on a hip. Do you think I stick my @ss out when I box?

If you're so set on proving me wrong, go find some Judo or Shuai Chiao clips of people doing some type of hip throw while tucking their bums.

[Royal Dragon]

Hmmm, Like you brought weight lifting into a horse stance argument?

Structure is structure.

Besides, even if I show you what is right, based on the conflicting examples you posted before, you are not capeable of seeing it.

This whole thing is pointless.

[SevenStar]

Weight training does train the muscles but LE weight training exercises are not safer for the joint than stance training. MARTIAL ARTS MUSCLE is different than weight lifter body builder muscle. With weights you train the fast twitch with stance the slow twitch or endurance muscle. If you kick once or twice weights are fine but with stance you develope strength an endurance. Most fights require more than one kick or punch. Also stance is more of an isometric contraction not concentric and essentric like weights isometric has been known to strengthen muscles better than weights thus the new SUPER SLOW METHODS. as far as anatomical strength of the spine the natural curve of the lumbar is good for everyday activities but for Chi Circulation and core strengthening during certain activities like punching and Kicking a posterior tilt of the pelvis is more stable. KC
PS there are 4 layers of abdominal muscles. Transversus, internal , external obliques , rectus abdominis

superslow? see, this is why people laugh when martial artists give weight training advice.

1. superslow is not new

2. ss is not conducive to building explosiveness

3.there is no such thing as martial arts muscle. how it is trained determines how it functions - you play how you train.
4. there is a difference in how body builders train and how strength athletes like power lifters train.

5. weight training can build muscular endurance as well. try to bench press 225 twenty times if you doubt this.

6. isometric training only builds strength in the position being held, not a full range of motion.

7. you were only talking about the rectus abdominis. that is where the upper and lower abs are. however, when many people mention lower abs, they are usually really referring to the adductors and abductors

[BlueTravesty]

FWIW, when I was doing MyJhong, our horse stance had the back arched, chest out, and butt pushed out. I keep hearing people saying this is an "incorrect" horse stance... usually these tend to be southern stylists, or people who trained in other systems such as Baji. I've also heard that referred to as a "Modern Wushu" horse.

While I have seen such a horse stance in Wushu Forms, it also appears in traditional Jia Men Chang Quan (from which we get the Wushu ChaQuan) and, as mentioned before, in MyJhong/Mizong.

The primary reasons, as I was taught, had to do with building a good posture. Not to mention, when the butt is pushed out in a horse stance, it's easier on your hips for you to go parallel. The only drawback is, since you're parallel everything else hurts :(

As far as the time holding it, Sifu would say "anything over 5 minutes is for showing off, or for rank tests" And he had to do quite a few of those extended horse stances to get his rank...

[Royal Dragon]

I can go parallel shoulders rounded, tail bone tucked, but it wasn't easy to get there.

Once I GOT that structure though, I was much more balanced, much better rooting, and it's harder to uproot and throw me than before. I also found it was much eaiser to dominate someone who doesn't have this posture.

Haveing done both, the tail tucked, chest sunk, shoulders rounded, spine straight is defenetly the superior method by far...but it's also way, way harder to get.

You have to start high and get the structure right there, and slowly sink over time, go only as low as you can keep the requirements.

It took me several years to get it. Even now, I can only hold it like that for half the time I can when I cheat it by doing it WD's way.

I found that WD's way makes it too easy to be dominated by an opponent. You are all ready partially off balance that way,so you are prone to take downs, even when you are standing higher up.

[kwaichang]

Martial arts Muscle is a term I used to describe a comb of slow and fast twitch muscle. The super slow I refer to is a recent concept developed by physiologist in Calif. Most people who think they know what they are talking about often refer to the essentric contraction as super slow.
I have one for you squat 225 15 times measure your effort out put using the percieved exertiopn scale and then try a correct horse stance for lets say 3 minutes and tell me , if you can do it which is harder. BTW my degree is in Kinesiology and Physical therapy I know of what I speak. Question abd and add of what the legs hips etc perhaps you speak of the Psoas Muscle group. KC:confused: :D

[SevenStar]

Martial arts Muscle is a term I used to describe a comb of slow and fast twitch muscle. The super slow I refer to is a recent concept developed by physiologist in Calif. Most people who think they know what they are talking about often refer to the essentric contraction as super slow.
I have one for you squat 225 15 times measure your effort out put using the percieved exertiopn scale and then try a correct horse stance for lets say 3 minutes and tell me , if you can do it which is harder. BTW my degree is in Kinesiology and Physical therapy I know of what I speak. Question abd and add of what the legs hips etc perhaps you speak of the Psoas Muscle group. KC:confused: :D

when I was in cma I had a 5 min horse. I have also squatted 225 for 20 reps. bad compsrison, as it does not take 3 mins to squat 225 for 15 reps. to be more equal, squat 225 for 3 mins, then compare that with holding a 3 min horse.

[BlueTravesty]

when I was in cma I had a 5 min horse. I have also squatted 225 for 20 reps. bad compsrison, as it does not take 3 mins to squat 225 for 15 reps. to be more equal, squat 225 for 3 mins, then compare that with holding a 3 min horse.

I understand you're rebutting kwaichang's point, but if I may... since horse stance is body weight, wouldn't it be more accurate to compare it with squatting for 5 minutes sans weights? Assuming the horse stance is perfectly parallel, they'd both be nightmarish IMO

[kwaichang]

My contention is, To hold a Horse stance correctly is harder than squating 225 x15. The Z band is the link of the sarcomeres of the muscle it connects and transfers the power , if you will, to the tendonous area. When doing Concentric and -eccentric contractions like with a squat you do not utilize all the muscle fibers. some of the motor points of the muscle do not fire due to compensation etc. While holding a horse stance for 3 minutes you will incorporate "all" of the muscle fibers of the primary muscle group and more force is generated at the Z band , RD this why the horse stance strenthens the muscle tendon junction. The prolonged stress on the joints with out movement during stance training also strengthens the ligaments and bone-tendon junction " look up wolfs law". Also the muscle is composed of contractile and non-contractile tissues and with a prolonged hold as in the stance , not in weights where the movement moves the point of tension along the muscle through ROM, the stance causes these areas of the muscle to be put in a prolonged stretch and thus strengthen them under tension as well. so do stance training to be a more rounded MA, but bont neglect weights. Low # high rep. KC

[Mas Judt]

Everyone is looking at 'the horse stance' as a thing unto itself, and in some cases (RD & WD) are arguing two completely different goals and thereby two completely different traning methods that both call 'horse stance.'

This can be simplified by discussing the end goals desired and why the training is the way it is.

For me, stance training is very, very useful, but not out of context from my other training or a specific goal.

[Water Dragon]

Everyone is looking at 'the horse stance' as a thing unto itself, and in some cases (RD & WD) are arguing two completely different goals and thereby two completely different traning methods that both call 'horse stance.'

This can be simplified by discussing the end goals desired and why the training is the way it is.

For me, stance training is very, very useful, but not out of context from my other training or a specific goal.

Man, how is it that you can explain in 3 sentences what I couldn't explain in 3 pages?

[Black Jack II]

RD this why the horse stance strenthens the muscle tendon junction.

Show me ONE scientific study which presents this.......??

[kwaichang]

Look up wolfs law it basically says a tissue will respond to the amount of stress placed upon it EX weight bearing ex decreases the prospect of Osteoporosis. So all the muscle bundle are joined and condensed at the Z band and the Muscle tendon Junction more fibers more stress , ie stance work more developement in that area. So it is stronger in that area. With weight training the moment of force is moved along the belly of the muscle through time and ROM. so different areas of the muscle is developed at different times of the ex. Withstance training the moment of force is held and as muscles fatigue the other fibers compensate to hold the stance thus stronger tendon and ligament. KC i dont have time to review orthopedic journals for a study to prove this. I just have 25 years of Orthopedic PT and Strenght training experience to back it up. KC

[Black Jack II]

I will repeat the question,


RD this why the horse stance strenthens the muscle tendon junction.

Show me ONE scientific study which presents this.......??

[kwaichang]

Show me a study that disproves it KC

[kwaichang]

I keyed in Isometric contraction muscle , there is too much to read but i did read a couple by cisco and little and they have studies that say what i am trying to say so read to your hearts content. KC

[Black Jack II]

Show me a study that disproves it KC

Show me a study that disproves that a giant floating mothership is hovering above the Earth sending out wonderfull beams of free nanotechnology viagra?


I keyed in Isometric contraction muscle , there is too much to read but i did read a couple by cisco and little and they have studies that say what i am trying to say so read to your hearts content. KC

I know about Isometric contraction. I asked you to put down a independent scientific study on horse stance training showcasing this quote.


RD this why the horse stance strenthens the muscle tendon junction.

[Mas Judt]

"Man, how is it that you can explain in 3 sentences what I couldn't explain in 3 pages?"

Because the mothership has been beaming me nanotech viagra.

[Royal Dragon]

While holding a horse stance for 3 minutes you will incorporate "all" of the muscle fibers of the primary muscle group and more force is generated at the Z band , RD this why the horse stance strenthens the muscle tendon junction.

Reply]
Well, if you put it that way, how is it that lifting weights does not develope the muscles and joints? It stresses those areas as well.

"Man, how is it that you can explain in 3 sentences what I couldn't explain in 3 pages?"

Reply]
Becasue you don't speak in coherent sentances, post examples of your point that have nothing to do with the discussion and/or are a contradictery mixture of both supporting yourself, AND my position, change the context of the discussion when you are losing, *AND* you P1ss me off by talking down to me because you are a disrespectfull little *****.

Mas Judt just speaks his position in a clear and concise and non insulting way.

[Royal Dragon]

I personally don't see how stance work can strengthen the muscle tendon joint any more than weight lifting. No mattter what you do, everything in the unit gets more developed by the same purportions Muscles, joints, tendons etc...

[Water Dragon]

If you took anything I wrote that way, you have some personal issues there. Disagreeing on training methods is not the same thing as a personal attck. I'm sorry you took it that way.

I do find it funny though that you're the only person slinging insults on this thread, yet you somehow feel 'disrespected'.

[Mas Judt]

Just don't disrespect the mothership. Those little gray guys are mean mofos.

[kwaichang]

The muscles are not strengthened evenly due to recrutment at different angles of the joint read my past posts , also the horse stance is like other isometric contractions the same principal applies to that or holding a push up half way up, do some Yoga for a while. also why do you think it strengthens you so well. KC

[kwaichang]

Also if you want to look like a body builder then lift weight if you want to be a fighter then train like one 1500 years of MA training against 100 years of physiology. KC

[unkokusai]

...........................:rolleyes:

[Mas Judt]

"Also if you want to look like a body builder then lift weight if you want to be a fighter then train like one 1500 years of MA training against 100 years of physiology. KC"

Put the Kool-Aid down.

[Mas Judt]

If you want to fight a war don't trust 50 years of nuclear science, get a good bow and arrow instead, they're 1500 years old and everything.

[Fu-Pow]

The point of extended stance training is not to make your muscles stronger. Its to fatigue your muscles enough that you are not using them EXCLUSIVELY to hold yourself up. Beginners have a lot of issues with letting their weight settle to their feet and they "hold on" too tightly with their muscles and don't let their bones and connective tissues play any role in maintaining the structure. This "holding on" creates a leverage point in the legs and you are easier to take down. Extended stance training where you are "holding on" and developing those muscles that help you to hold on is pointless. You are making yourself easier to take down and therefore a less competent fighter.

FP

[kwaichang]

I see now i am talking to a bunch of morons, Go read some books on Bio mechanics Kinesiology then come back with some intelligent conversation KC

[Mas Judt]

once again we have a bunch of people talking about a bunch of stuff where common words have wildly different perspectives.

20 years ago I would agree that most that passed for physical training in the West was useless for CMA. However stuff has evolved, includeing the understanding of CMA in the West. Thanks to friends with good Western scientific educations and more time on thier hands than have, I have exercises created by applying modern scientific knowledge that dramatically shortens the amount of time it takes to learn CMA shen fa.

So go science!

[kwaichang]

Isometrics using resistance bands is the ideal strategy for speed training. This is partly due to fact that the energy stored in a stretched band is much greater than gravitational energy used by weights. Therefore the faster acceleration of a stretched band is 'transferred' to the muscles when used with an isometric exercise.

The biggest advantage to isometric training is two fold.

First, by forcing your muscle(s) to hold a position for a certain length of time, your body will begin to recruit and activate more and more motor units to help maintain this contraction. Motor units that are rarely exercised within a particular muscle are now brought into use, perhaps for the first time.

Second, the motor units that are recruited are forced to contract continuously, time after time, with no appreciable decrease in force output. This allows your muscles to achieve a state of maximum contraction very safely and effectively.

The end result is that the entire muscle matures very quickly.

So how does this condition the fast twitch muscle fibers?

The fast twitch muscle fibers are often overlooked because they are mostly ignored for purposes of contraction speed in exercise routines where the muscle length is constantly changing, when doing multiple repetitions with weights, for example. As far as your muscles are concerned this is endurance training, the job of slow twitch muscle fibers.

The Athletic Quickness Speed Training Programs use the resistance band to help isolate, condition and quicken various muscle groups in the body. The resistance band is ideal because its resistance will change depending on how far the band is stretched.

By utilizing the unique properties of the resistance band, and maintaining the muscle at a specific length by using an isometric exercise, the muscles will develop a fast twitch response.

This means, first, that the nerves and muscles develop the memory to accelerate instantly to the contraction point of the isometric exercise, and secondly, the fast twitch muscle fibers are conditioned to maximize the speed of the muscle contraction.

By strengthening the fast twitch muscle fibers, you have increased the speed at which the muscles contract or move.

When this application is applied to your thigh flexor and extensor muscles, for example, the result is an explosive increase in your running speed and power!

So as i said the horse stance for example is an Isomettric contraction and it does the above . Also many "new" age athletes are incorporating Isometrics to progress. again science has wasted money to prove what has been known for 1500 years. KC PS do stance training. KC

[Mr Punch]

RD, like Water said, if you're taking any of that stuff as an insult you need to get out more... hell, I'll insult you far worse than that and I don't even know you! :D

Your use of MMA fighters in the ring to 'prove' your points about correct stance is laughable, and far less relevant than WD's use of load-bearing lifting pics.

Regardless of the supposed physiological function, the functional purpose of horse-stance training in technical application is...? Well, as you and WD seem to agree, in throwing, plus you and Becca agree, in resisting throws.

Isometric exercise only strenghtens the point of the actual position held. So, unless you practice moving in and out of horse too, with real oppositional stress, or slowly and isometrically holding and tensing each position on the way (which would of course take far too long) this benefit has already plateaued after 5-10 seconds. Just put in 'how long isometric exercise' into Google: all of the studies I found came up with 5-10 seconds, with some even suggesting that not only does doing them for longer not benefit you, but it also is detrimental.

Admittedly, I don't know if anybody has done any studies on holding stances for longer than say five minutes.

WD's examples of people using a particular horse-like stance to shift large loads whether with active resistance (judo) or inactive resistance (weights) has relevance. That is how the body works best under load-bearing stress. Incidentally ALL of the Japanese arts stick the ass out to some extent: well they look like they do... my internal koryu teacher had it that the back should be in relaxed tension, with a distinct arch AND the hip-bone tucked in slightly (he would say just to pull it in with the ass muscles just half an inch to an inch). So, your arguing that the hip-bone should be tucked in as opposed to the back being arched as a universal truth is nonsense, though possibly understandable through your lower back problems. It took me a long time to develop anywhere near the lower back flexibility to get the back arched-hip bone tucked in stance, and my horse still sucks, back problems and all.

I don't know of any arts or weights instructors who say that tucking the hip-bone in and curving the back to the extent in your picture is good for your body mechanics or your back health. Don't you think that as someone who suffers from back problems, it's perhaps a bit presumptious of you to be lecturing people on correct back position?!

Saying that those MMA fighters are using your mechanics is preposterous! They're punching, not throwing, and you can add to that the fact that they're not in anything resembling your horse stance, aside from which, even if they were you could only claim that this supported your argument if you claimed that you punched effectively and frequently in your horse stance.

OK, now to KC: your last post is informative and I think, mostly correct, though I don't have any study experience in this area, just through reading and observation. However, as a 25 year-whatever-qualified person your failure to accept that it's not just a new-age fad that has incorporated isometrics into weightlifting (or even body-building) is undermining your argument. It does go to explain some way towrads why you are so resistant to weights though...

Eugene Sandow, Bruce Tegner, there are countless famous strength athletes from the beginning of weight-training literature (well over a hundred years) who have advocated isometrics as part of an integrated strength, suppleness and agility programme. Yet, or some reason, you don't accept their 'old wisdom', and pass it off as 'new-age' fad only choosing to accept that of the Chinese fu masters of old... . Maybe this is in some way connected to your out-dated notion that strength training with weights = bodybuilding. That is flat-out wrong.

I love stance training. I do a lot. Chinese from chi-kung and tai-chi and in my wing chun, and Japanese from traditional aiki-jutsu based koryu. It probably makes up a bit more than WD's 30%, but not much. I don't know where WD got that 30% from anyway, but it's a reasonable enough figure!! :D The problem with RD, KC and the like on this thread is you seem to be advocating stance training as a way to make yourselves stronger exclusive of anything else. If you don't mix your training, you're asking for health problems and failure to deliver adequate technique IMO.

[kwaichang]

I said in the past a high repetition moderate to low weight will be good for those who wish it. also I did not say that isometrics were a new fad I simply said new age training is incorporating it as well as other methods to achieve new plateaus. I also said that the MA of old knew what sience had to spend money to prove. Isometrics do need to be performed at different ROM and if you look at the different stances not just the Ma Bu you will find other angles attacked as well. The I chi Ching are good for this. KC
PS the reason Isometrics are frowned uponis due to the supposed decreased blood flow to the muscle during the contraction I personally doubt this from my experience in PT with athletic rehab patients.

[Mr Punch]

I said in the past a high repetition moderate to low weight will be good for those who wish it. That's as maybe - but that also means you are dismissing low-intensity high-weight programmes which are an accepted and scientifically sound part of many people's training regimes, including, if you wish a lot of old Chinese strength training.


also I did not say that isometrics were a new fad I simply said new age training is incorporating it as well as other methods to achieve new plateaus. I refer you again to just those two names I just gave you. Google or Wiki any early weight trainers, whether body-builders or strength trainers or both (likely the latter as a lot of the early pioneers had a naturally integrated approach), and you'll find that isometrics have never been dismissed by the majority of sensible modern trainers as a part of a regimen. You are defending your position against straw men.
I also said that the MA of old knew what sience had to spend money to prove.Agreed in many cases. But are you also saying there were no cases of old school martial arts training that were bad for people? How about the scores of Okinawan schools and their original Chinese counterparts who advocated isometrics and dynamic tension sets to the detriment of their health (and against common sense!).
Isometrics do need to be performed at different ROM and if you look at the different stances not just the Ma Bu you will find other angles attacked as well.Sure, no disagreement again, but this argument is about extent. Holding your stances for 5-10 sec reps, in conjunction with eccentric/concentric resistance exercise would seem to make sense, and that is exactly what old school CMA, JMA AND weight trainers have recommended! People who recommend holding the stances for absurd periods of time are fewer and further between and have far elss available evidence suggesting that they are correct.

Also there must be a negative work-time correlation if you are suggesting spending so much time on each possible position on the way to and from the ma-bu just in case somebody attacks from a different angle! There are better ways to spend your time, although admittedly I think ma-bu is a good base.

Incidentally, in my koryu classes we practiced sinking into kibadachi (ma-bu) and holding it in various positions, and more usefully a method of stepping where we stepped from a low horse, painfully slowly, pulling our back foot along the ground into a low stance with the feet together and then out again equally slowly into horse and repeating. (There were several similar exercises, moving slowly, pressing into the gorund and holding the stances at various points). This really improved my kicking strength, body connectivity, rooting and floating up to a point. There is a plateau quite quickly, as with all isometrics and low-speed exercise, but I would suggets that this kind of exercise is better than purely static ones alone.
PS the reason Isometrics are frowned uponis due to the supposed decreased blood flow to the muscle during the contraction I personally doubt this from my experience in PT with athletic rehab patients.1) Nobody in this thread has frowned upon isometrics... we are discussing extent.
2) Isometrics shouldn't be performed cold anyway, so there should be adequate bloodflow to the muscle.

[Water Dragon]

Punch, I read the article on T-Nation. I searched, but couldn't find it. It was an article on whole body training, and he recommended about 30 % of total training. It was mentioned in passing, there wasn't a focus on it.

[Black Jack II]

KC,

So no specific study on traditional horse stance training as you indicated..?

Np, thats cool.

A resource that some may or may not pass over for stance and speed endurance training in that context is sports specific development. The several modes of training that are intergal to developing a fast and stable athlete.

Soccer, football, basketball, baseball, tennis, golf...there is a world of info out there for people who want to use the visual ability to make the connection. Not just in the vast gamut of modern sports science training tools they have to offer but in actually playing the game in relation to sharpening a specific martial art skill.

Try intergrating the way you play basketball, its fast and evasive footwork into kali stick fighting for example or playing football to better under rough entry skills or soccer for its wealth of info on getting powerfull kicks.

Not just will you be adding something to your training, it will be different and break the mold a bit.

[Becca]

That is basically what I stated, but its easier to fall under some illusions I guess.One of the biggest being that the TCMA method of training is full of unnessisary BS. Do you need it to fight? No. Do you need it to train your body? Yes. Some one who takes the time to properly train thier stances does not get knee injuries, even the ones who fight full contact. Yet the sport is full of knee injuries. Coincidence?

[Royal Dragon]

The problem with RD, KC and the like on this thread is you seem to be advocating stance training as a way to make yourselves stronger exclusive of anything else.

Reply]
No, I am not saying stance training is for strength at all, I am saying it is to develope the body structure used by a fighter, the very same structure that is exibiited by the various examples I posted before.

I love my stance work, and when I was in my 30's I held horse close to 20 minutes with relative ease. Today i hold the ball more, but I still hold all my major stances in practice. With that said, I can tell you stance work does not do much for strength once you can hold past the 2-3 minute mark.It's all muscular endurance.

And even then, the muscular bennifits are a SIDE EFFECT of the training. The main purpose is to build the structure,/ Skelital alignment used during a fight. You see it best in the video of the Chinese master I posted, but you see most of the elements of this structure in all the MMA clips i posted as well, especialy Fedor.

Now, I don't really care how any of those individuals developed it, but they all have it to one degree or another (We are talking the worlds top fighters)but I do know stance work is a highly effective means for doing so, especailly when you hold it in excess of 10 minutes at a time.

I can tell you my stance training has allowed me to maintain that structure even in very deep stances, which is *VERY* difficult to do.This ability has transfered over to partner work quite nicely, with very positive results, even when I am NOT going low in the stance. The abillity to hold it low, for long periods of time just makes the structure that much stronger, and un breakable when you are in higher stances.

[Royal Dragon]

Your use of MMA fighters in the ring to 'prove' your points about correct stance is laughable, and far less relevant than WD's use of load-bearing lifting pics.

Reply]
No, my examples are FAR more relevant because every one of those fighters is demonstraighting the very structure I am talking about, in part, or fully (Fedor especially, for example). The Purpose of stance work is to develope that structure used by the worlds top fighters when they fight, NOT for lifting big weights.

Because of this fact, WD's examples are pointless, and have nothing to do with the subject as stance work is part of training your structure for fighting, not lifiing heavy things like Barbells, or building muscles like weigth lifting.

He does that intentionally to distract from the main subject because he is wrong, and resorts to insulting my level of expertise because he has no other recourse.

[Royal Dragon]

Try intergrating the way you play basketball, its fast and evasive footwork into kali stick fighting for example or playing football to better under rough entry skills or soccer for its wealth of info on getting powerfull kicks.

Not just will you be adding something to your training, it will be different and break the mold a bit.

Reply]
Agreed, infact alot of the training methodolgy I am working with now is based on what I have learned from my daughter's gymnastics coach. She was a top coach at the region's top gym for many, many years and produced ALL of their top gymnasts. Because of her level of knowledge and understanding I have totally redone the way i think about teaching physical skills. Her methods have influanced everything I appraoch from skill training, to the way I do warmups, and even WHEN i do things during the course of a training session.

I think it is good to look at the way the best athletic trainiers do things, but I am not one to throw the baby out with the bathwater either. Stance training several times a week (Not daily as the Chinese like to do) for 20 minutes or more at a time has really positive benifits on developing the core body structure. It's as profound as useing wieghts is for strength training. I have yet to find anything better, so I don't see the point in tossing the method from my tool box.

[Black Jack II]

It's as profound as useing wieghts is for strength training

I disagree with that statement. It's not as profound, its a good form of excercise true, but to say its as profound as spending a time in the gym to me just does not connect.

[Royal Dragon]

That is because you are stilll thinking it is for developing strength. If you are talking STRENGTH development, stance work is vastly inferior to weights, if you are talking devloping body structure, and skelital alignment, it is vastly superior to weights, which are basically useless for developing the structure used by fighters (as seen in the vids i posted).

It's like this, Stance work is as good at accomplising it's purpose as weight lifting is at accompllishing *It's* purpose. HOWEVR both exercises have vastly different purposes to accomplish and are not interchangeable.

You could equate it with running too, Sprinting is just as good at developing a top level sprinter, as long distance ruinning is good at develping a top level long distance runner.

However, if you wanted to develope world class sprinting abilities, you would not go to a long distance running coach for the task.

Stances are the same, if you are looking to develop the structure of a fighter, you would not go to a weight lifting/strength training coach.

[Black Jack II]

Ah, Royal that's all fine what you just said but your the one who quoted this.:D



It's as profound as useing wieghts is for strength training

Then said this....


If you are talking STRENGTH development, stance work is vastly inferior to weights

Hey, I have not had my coffee yet either. In fact I am going to go get some Starbucks right now.;)

[Royal Dragon]

You are not listening, It's as profound at performing *IT'S* Task, as weight lifting is at performing it's. The *Tasks* here are two different tasks which are TOTALLY unrelated.

You cannot even compare weight lifting to stance work, because they are not even remotely tied to one another, it would be like compareing sprinting to long distance running. Yes, both are running, but other than that they are not even close to being related, just like stance work and weight lifitng *Seem* related on the surface, but when you look close, they are not related at all. Both are two totaly different exercises, performing two totally different functions, and both are equally good at thier respective tasks.

I don't know how many different ways i can phrase this to get my message across, does anyone get what I am trying to say here?

[Royal Dragon]

Maybe if I say it like this.


Weight lifting is a very profound exercise to deveope strength.

Stance training is a very profound way to develope body structure, and skelital alignment.

Stance training is just as Profound at developing Structure, as Weight lifting is at developing strength.

[Black Jack II]

Weight lifting is a very profound exercise to deveope strength.

Stance training is a very profound way to develope body structure, and skelital alignment.

Stance training is just as Profound at developing Structure, as Weight lifting is at developing strength

I think that is a more clear way for you to put it. When you say structure though, so people don't confuse what you mean, it might not be a bad idea to define what you mean as good structure.

Being that one art may have a different intergration of what a good structure is or is not.

[Royal Dragon]

I think I have defined propper structure untill I Have turned blue almost.

I even posted several examples of those who have it in full or in large part. My examples included some of the top fighters in the world...all useing this body structure, like Fedor.

Once again, the structure is rounded shoulders, sunk chest, striaght or rounded spine (not arched back) and Tail bone tucked.


Look at the fighters, and the old Master in these clips, every one of them shows and is useing the structure i am talking about in whole, or in part. NONE of them use the structure seen in the horse stance pic posted by WD as the ipidiomy of the Correct. (pic included below for reference)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryxByDCdC64

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I-6UVNpAXo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7dIK...elated&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJHMw...elated&search=

You even see it to some extent here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3doB...elated&search=

Since the purpose of practicing and holding stances is to develope the structure best suited for fighting (as seen used by top fighters linked to above), you have to hold your stances WITH That structure, or the whole practice is useless.

Holding a stance like the one WD posted is pointless, and wrong.

[Water Dragon]

Your use of MMA fighters in the ring to 'prove' your points about correct stance is laughable, and far less relevant than WD's use of load-bearing lifting pics.

Reply]
Because of this fact, WD's examples are pointless, and have nothing to do with the subject as stance work is part of training your structure for fighting, not lifiing heavy things like Barbells, or building muscles like weigth lifting.

He does that intentionally to distract from the main subject because he is wrong, and resorts to insulting my level of expertise because he has no other recourse.

Naw man, you just refuse to acknowledge we are talking about two different things. I use horse in reference to what it does for hip throws exclusively. That's why the back is arched, not held down. There's a reason for it.

You are talking about using stance to train your structure against an incoming force. More of a P'eng type thing. I know what you're talking about, I just don't train stance for that anymore. I have my reasons for that too.

[Royal Dragon]

In truth, the structure i am talking about is not limited to the Chinese arts. Top players of all martail arts adhear to these principals. Boxers use it, Muy Tai fighters use it, and even NON martial athletes use it.

Good structural alignment, is good structural alignment. It trancends style.

Look at the sport of gymnastics for instance. THEY rely hevily on the same body structure I am talking about. yes, they arch thier backs, puff thier chest and stick thier butts out during the dance portions of thier routines when the main goal is to show off thier physique, but when it comes time to get down to business and start power tumbling, they go right into the same structure I am discribing. They call it the "Hollow" position.



It's also interesting to note, they have holding postures to help develop it like we do. They don't hold a horse stance, they instead lay on thier backs, and hold the hollow position. They also do various accessory exercises to develop this structure to an incredible degree. They do this because none of thier skills would be possible without a mastery of this body structure.

The interesting thing about gymnasts is they are much more flexible in thier training methods (We can learn alot from them). You would never even have this disscussion in thier crowds because they would just do whatever works best for the situation. If they needs to improve thier structure, they hold hollow position, if they are lacking in mechanics, they do drills for thier mechanics etc... Only we have heated arguments that an exercise for building structure is not good for developing strength....

I have to say, thier method for building body structure is very good. Those of you who like to integrate practices of other discaplines into their martial art would do well to add Hollow holds to thier tool box.

[Black Jack II]

I think Water is right, seems to be just a misunderstanding between what you are both terming the word structure to mean at this specific time. When I think of structure, at least in this thread it has to do with punching power, my way is a bit more western, as I don't do any conventional tcm stance training.

[SevenStar]

One of the biggest being that the TCMA method of training is full of unnessisary BS. Do you need it to fight? No. Do you need it to train your body? Yes. Some one who takes the time to properly train thier stances does not get knee injuries, even the ones who fight full contact. Yet the sport is full of knee injuries. Coincidence?

too abstract. which sport are you speaking of? AFAIK, muay thai does not have a high rate of knee injury. Judo on the other hand, does. However, you have to look at the level of people playing judo and the level of people playing shuai chiao, for example. There are world level competitions in judo. VERY good guys, competing extremely hard. If there were a cma venue similar, you would see knee injuries. That's like the debate here a few years ago about head trauma in sports like boxing, but it's unheard of in cma. As we said in that thread as well, if there were a venue for tcma to compete in on a similar level as a pro boxer, you would see an increase in head trauma in tcma.

I would not attribute the lack of stance training to knee injuries in a grappling sport, but would love to see studies proving it.

[Becca]

Teaching your body to hold a low position using TCMA meathods helps to stabalize your joints for use in TCMA applications. Weihgt lifting causes the major muscle groups to fire, but you also need to train the smaller, less used muscles, as these are the ones the fail most often with a repetative injury. Stance training does this. It also teaches your body to be comfortable in a position you would not normaly be in.

Clear enough?

[Royal Dragon]

I think Water is right, seems to be just a misunderstanding between what you are both terming the word structure to mean at this specific time.

Reply]
No, he is a disrespectfull little tard and he ****es me off.



When I think of structure, at least in this thread it has to do with punching power, my way is a bit more western, as I don't do any conventional tcm stance training.

Reply]
When you are talking about punching power, you are talking about body mechanics, or how the body moves. Mechanics are built on the structure, or more accurately they move the structure. They are interrelated, but are still seperate things.

You can move in diffferent ways, but use the same structural alignment.

[SevenStar]

Teaching your body to hold a low position using TCMA meathods helps to stabalize your joints for use in TCMA applications. Weihgt lifting causes the major muscle groups to fire, but you also need to train the smaller, less used muscles, as these are the ones the fail most often with a repetative injury. Stance training does this. It also teaches your body to be comfortable in a position you would not normaly be in.

Clear enough?

training stabilizing muscles is one of the big benefits free weight training has over using machines...

[SevenStar]

No, he is a disrespectfull little tard and he ****es me off.

challenge match?




When you are talking about punching power, you are talking about body mechanics, or how the body moves. Mechanics are built on the structure, or more accurately they move the structure. They are interrelated, but are still seperate things.

You can move in diffferent ways, but use the same structural alignment.

In all of the time I have been involved in judo, I have never been shown a hip throw using the structure you described, dude. Having the butt tucked completely changes the throw and would likely make it much harder to pull off.

[Black Jack II]

Weihgt lifting causes the major muscle groups to fire, but you also need to train the smaller, less used muscles, as these are the ones the fail most often with a repetative injury.

Becca, free weight based workouts like bench, squat, deadlift, shoulder press, are great for keeping all the muscle groups intact, including all the supporting structure.

Don't mean to bag, but free weights are great for the whole range.

[Black Jack II]

Royal,

Here is the problem, your are basing your definition on what everyone should take it as, a lot of people do that, its no big, but its not always the case.


When you are talking about punching power, you are talking about body mechanics, or how the body moves. Mechanics are built on the structure,

That is an example of what I am talking about, not everyone views everything under the same lamp, some tend to take those terms and link them more organically.

[Becca]

training stabilizing muscles is one of the big benefits free weight training has over using machines...

I have it on the authority of a OTA that adding heavier weight can encourage the stabalizers to let the main muscles take the brunt of the load. After a while, the stabalizers can get conditioned to always letting the main muscles do the work. But the mains can't stabalize the joints. While there are free weight exorsizes that can isolate these muscles to strengthen them. But if you don't work them all together, they will still tend to let the mains take over. Stance training "teaches" the stabalizers to fire when you want them to, not just when it is easy for them.

Not to start another branch of the flame war, but this teaching of the stabalizers is a big part of training body structure. A fantastic punch is worthless if your wrist can't take the impact.

[Mas Judt]

Holy crap - WD is talking about throwing skills - other than Kao throws you can forget classical 'power structure.' WD was describing wehat we call 'three point stance' -

CMA is not so limited that there is only one way to do one thing.

RD - you are talking about something completely different than WD. What WD describes is STILL classical CMA.

GO BACK TO MY EARLIER POST. You are clinging to a limited mindset.

[Water Dragon]

challenge match?



lol. stop instigating, Sev.

[Royal Dragon]

I have no idea what WD is talking about, and i really don't care, I placed him on my ignore list several pages back.

[Water Dragon]

I have no idea what WD is talking about.


Well, at least there's one thing we can agree on :D

[kwaichang]

Many of you attempt to reach the skill level of the old masters and compliment their form , power , etc. So I guess the old masters used the new weight training equipment and technology to achieve such skill. THE ANSWER IS NO. They did stance training maybe the truth is there but we have not found it yet. I know it isnt in weights. Many of the great boxers did isometrics and body weight exercises and they did fine with good power. No they are not as powerful as those of today but why ? MAYBE THE STEROIDS ETC. KC

[SevenStar]

lol. stop instigating, Sev.

fine, no challenge match... we'll just have another seminar in chi.:D

[Black Jack II]

So I guess the old masters used the new weight training equipment and technology to achieve such skill. THE ANSWER IS NO

I guess because you say the answer is no, well then by god almighty, it must be no. I mean you used capitals and all.


They did stance training maybe the truth is there but we have not found it yet.

LOL. Another the mystery is hidden in the past nonsense.


No they are not as powerful as those of today but why ? MAYBE THE STEROIDS ETC. KC

The words today kids, is IGNORANT.

[kwaichang]

Hey Black Jack or is it Jack Black look in a mirror and see Ignorance. KC

[kwaichang]

I appologize I succumbed to the level of those on this forum that use their cuts of others to make themselves feel like they are more than they are, Ignorance to me is one with out education stupidity is those who are unwilling to learn at all. " and you cant fix stupid" KC

[SevenStar]

Many of you attempt to reach the skill level of the old masters and compliment their form , power , etc. So I guess the old masters used the new weight training equipment and technology to achieve such skill. THE ANSWER IS NO. They did stance training maybe the truth is there but we have not found it yet. I know it isnt in weights.

hmm....

stone locks
water filled vases
weighted sandals
iron rings
heavy weapons
rock pole
throwing pulleys

I can go on, but you get the point. They DID strength train back then.




Many of the great boxers did isometrics and body weight exercises and they did fine with good power. No they are not as powerful as those of today but why ? MAYBE THE STEROIDS ETC. KC

possibly. Or maybe it's the weight training. Nah, couldn't be, right?

[kwaichang]

With out knowing the exact type of training done with those objects there is no way to know. I do know from teachers that often the weights were used with isometric hold type exercises. Often during stance work like holding jars etc with the Tiger claw for grip etc. KC

[Royal Dragon]

I think that both the methods of weights, and stance holding have thier place. Sometimes they can be combined.

I suppose you can increase strength with stances IF you progressively add weights to the arms, or use progresively heavier, and heavier weighted vests. Just make sure you don't break your strcture due to the weight.

You could also do this with dynamic tension set like San Shen as well.

I also suppose you combine this with modern strength training you can really do alot, and enjoy the methods of old, and new combined. I have found you can get a really good workout if you do a good modern strength training session, and finnish by doinng dynamic tension sets like San Zhen.

[Mas Judt]

Seven,
In the West we went through a dark period in physical fitness where 'weight lifting' was associated with 'body sculpting' - only in the past ten years have you seen a strong movement back to functional strength (although many sports never left it behind).

When I was a kid, physical fitness trainers taught moronic things like 'when you streych, your muscle 'capsules' break and grow back longer.'

It was so bad, the CMA stuff was like a breath of fresh air.

But some folks are still living in that past, or misunderstood what thier teachers meant by looking through thier own lens.

-- Joe

[Mr Punch]

Maybe if I say it like this.

Weight lifting is a very profound exercise to deveope strength.

Stance training is a very profound way to develope body structure, and skelital alignment.

Stance training is just as Profound at developing Structure, as Weight lifting is at developing strength.That’s a nice description, but as Black Jack said, if you don’t define structure, you’re blowing in the wind.


Naw man, you just refuse to acknowledge we are talking about two different things. I use horse in reference to what it does for hip throws exclusively. That's why the back is arched, not held down. There's a reason for it.

You are talking about using stance to train your structure against an incoming force….Doesn’t make any difference WD. If he doesn’t train against resistance (so he actually feels that incoming force) or fight from horse stance it’s irrelevant.


In truth, the structure i am talking about is not limited to the Chinese arts. Top players of all martail arts adhear to these principals. Boxers use it, Muy Tai fighters use it, and even NON martial athletes use it.And there you go. This statement is plain wrong. You pointed out loads of MMAers and are now adding boxers and Thai fighters to your list. There may be a superficial resemblance to the horse you are talking about, but if they haven’t trained horse for that aim, the possibility that they may be tucking their hip-bones in (for example) is completely coincidental: IT IS NOT THE SAME STRUCTURE!

Similarly, as I stated, unless you specifically fight from your horse, the structural benefits that you may gain from training it as an isometric exercise, ARE NOT CARRYING OVER.


Good structural alignment, is good structural alignment. It trancends style.

Look at the sport of gymnastics for instance. …They call it the "Hollow" position…And so this is crap too. They are not doing the horse stance. Specific training for specific goals and all that… plus to review: isometrics train the muscle in that position ONLY. If you are talking about training the structure, it comes back to how are you training it? It’s not for strength, you’ve stated… it may have some relationship to endurance (though the scientists are still out on that one)… so in the end you’re training the structure for its own sake. It is not a hollow position, and it has no relevance to boxing!


If they needs to improve thier structure, they hold hollow position, if they are lacking in mechanics, they do drills for thier mechanics etc... Only we have heated arguments that an exercise for building structure is not good for developing strength....That’s because they are training for a specific purpose. The horse stance is training specifically only the horse stance (I’m playing devil’s advocate here: I do believe in some value of the horse stance but nobody seems to be getting through to you here).


I think Water is right, seems to be just a misunderstanding between what you are both terming the word structure to mean at this specific time.
Reply]
No, he is a disrespectfull little tard and he ****es me off.And this BS is only coming from you dood (it’s none of my business except you’re bringing it onto the board).


Mechanics are built on the structure, or more accurately they move the structure. They are interrelated, but are still seperate things.Well, in your first sentence, which is it? You have two opposing descriptions!
You can move in diffferent ways, but use the same structural alignment.What are you talking about now? The skeleton? It’s gibberish man!

[Mr Punch]

training stabilizing muscles is one of the big benefits free weight training has over using machines...


I have it on the authority of a OTA that adding heavier weight can encourage the stabalizers to let the main muscles take the brunt of the load. After a while, the stabalizers can get conditioned to always letting the main muscles do the work. But the mains can't stabalize the joints. While there are free weight exorsizes that can isolate these muscles to strengthen them. But if you don't work them all together, they will still tend to let the mains take over. Stance training "teaches" the stabalizers to fire when you want them to, not just when it is easy for them.

Not to start another branch of the flame war, but this teaching of the stabalizers is a big part of training body structure. A fantastic punch is worthless if your wrist can't take the impact.Good point. If you start training with big weights, your main muscle will compensate for your stabilizers, but then your stabilizers will develop tears and big problems in later life or sooner. That’s why everybody starts with very small weights (or should do!)! What you’re not taking into account that weight trainers have already proportionately trained their stabilizers before they ever get on to bodyweight lifts or anything reckless.

[Mr Punch]

So I guess the old masters used the new weight training equipment and technology to achieve such skill. THE ANSWER IS NO. They did stance training maybe the truth is there but we have not found it yet. I know it isnt in weights.I said in my answer to you before and Seven has just reiterated: a lot of old Chinese ‘masters’ used a lot of weights. True, many of them were used in isometrics and for light, high-rep endurance work, but a lot of them used heavy, low-rep stuff too. It’s documented. It’s still done.

Here’s another point: Takeda Sokaku, the head of daitoryu aikijujutsu last century, among others (I know he’s Japanese but my point still stands) used to do a thousand one handed cuts with a 12 kg practice sword with each hand, every day. Now, that would seem excessive even for endurance training, but that’s beside the point: my point is when he was a teenager and started daito ryu, do you think he could pick up a (5’+) 12 kilo bar with one hand, from one end? And how many times do you think he could swing it? (I’ll give you clue – at this point Japan was still an intensely poor country, and most people’s diet consisted almost solely of rice, pickles and the occasional fish – most people were borderline malnourished and certainly of very small build). Whatever he personally developed his exercise into (and for whatever reason – misogi more likely than endurance) he must have at least started as a heavy weight, low rep (or even no rep!) exercise!!


Many of the great boxers did isometrics and body weight exercises and they did fine with good power. No they are not as powerful as those of today but why ? MAYBE THE STEROIDS ETC. KCSince you’ve set yourself up as a bastion of knowledge who can call ignorance, this section is incredibly ignorant!
1) Boxers today (especially poor upcoming ones) still often use isometrics and bodyweight exercises.
2) Who says they were not as powerful as those today? Have you read Rocky Marciano’s work-outs? The man was an animal. Plus, there is no way we could measure him against anyone today!
3) Boxers are ALWAYS tested for illegal substances.
4) Maybe, as many boxers nowadays do seem stronger, they have become so because of integrated training, including heavy lifting programmes?!


With out knowing the exact type of training done with those objects there is no way to know. I do know from teachers that often the weights were used with isometric hold type exercises. Often during stance work like holding jars etc with the Tiger claw for grip etc. KCSure, but again, to be able to lift the jar to shoulder height in the first place took a lot of strength in… er – that’s it! Lifting! Above that the length of time thing is just arbitrary.

[Mr Punch]

BTW, I love the way that RD and KC, who are arguing against the majority are the first to resort to: 'you're wrong or ignorant or belittling' or whatever... :rolleyes::p

Anyway, look: here's another ignorant traditionalist! :rolleyes:

In case any of you missed it, I think this was a good post:
We use words like Mao bu, Ma bu, Gong bu and on and on and on with the BU.
I think that the word "Bu" was translated wrong.

Bu pace; step i.e. march step, goose step [zheng4 bu4]; learn to walk [xue2 bu4]

So based on the way that bu is used (in Chinese) it has nothing to do with holding a stance for a long period of time to prove that you can hold it. When I was in China I asked many people about holding stances for significant amount of time. Everyone informed me that if you could hold a Bu for 30 seconds to a min then that was long enough. [B]The real question was can you move from bu to bu indefinitely with perfect form?

The stories of holding a stance for long period of time were a weed out process. These practices were used to see if the potential student was willing to do what was asked. Because knowledge is kept very guarded in China, even today, people continually test your character. Chinese are constantly examining your dedication, resolve and what type of person you are.

...Also, traditionally stances were done much closer than they are done now (with some exceptions). Ma bu (horse stance) was traditionally done at shoulder width. The reason that most people cannot do a level Ma Bu (thighs parallel to the floor, at shoulder width) is not lack of strength but lack of flexibility in the hips. Try doing a wall sit, you can hold it but take away the wall and it becomes very hard because of the balance issue. My koryu teacher always taught us to move often literally excruciatingly slowly, isometrically testing each transition (each 'finishing position' was held for an arbitrary count of ten).

And he would start us with a wall kibadachi to improve our hip flexibility before he started getting us to drop into horse. I think this is the best way.

[SevenStar]

With out knowing the exact type of training done with those objects there is no way to know. I do know from teachers that often the weights were used with isometric hold type exercises. Often during stance work like holding jars etc with the Tiger claw for grip etc. KC

in some of these cases we do know, as they are still in use today. and I know from teachers that some of these are dynamic.

[Royal Dragon]

BTW, I love the way that RD and KC, who are arguing against the majority are the first to resort to: 'you're wrong or ignorant or belittling' or whatever...

Reply]
No, WD started with that.

And there you go. This statement is plain wrong. You pointed out loads of MMAers and are now adding boxers and Thai fighters to your list. There may be a superficial resemblance to the horse you are talking about, but if they haven’t trained horse for that aim, the possibility that they may be tucking their hip-bones in (for example) is completely coincidental: IT IS NOT THE SAME STRUCTURE!

Reply]
How can you say it's not the same structure? I look at them and see rounded shoulders, sunk chest, tucked tail bones. Maybe not all of them have all the requirements, but all of them seem to have MOST of the requirements. Maybe they came about it thier own way, but the requirments are still being met, and the core structure is still there. You gott'a be blind not to see that.

Similarly, as I stated, unless you specifically fight from your horse, the structural benefits that you may gain from training it as an isometric exercise, ARE NOT CARRYING OVER.

Reply]
Not nessasarily true. But lets suppose we give you that one, could that be why there are a variety of stances that are practiced besides the horse stance?

You also hold the Bow stance, Twisted Horse stance, Empty stance, Snake stance, Monkey resting stance, and several others. There is also the practice of holding postures of transition in between stances, as well as moving very slowly though your forms and drills that goes with the stance work.

Holding stances is not the be all, end all of Kung Fu training. It is just the part that builds the core body's foundational structural alignment (Skelital alignment for those that don't know what I mean by structure). The reason Horse stance is stressed more is becasue it builds the foundation of proper body structure. Is it the only way, no it is not. Gymnasts use the Hollow position (Which IS the same structure. I live with a gymnast, I see it all the time, it's the exact same thing.), and come up with the same results.

[Black Jack II]

There is so much inncorrect on boxing by KC I think Mr. Punch nailed it down.

As for horsestance structure and Boxing...I am still trying to figure out what Royal means as I have done my share of boxing training in a couple of clubs, working with crisp trade puglists to street brawlers to educated punchers, I have never met anyone who linked up those mechanics and never seen them as they are defined here.

Stressing and restressing proper form, hitting the heavy bag, over and over and over, shadowboxing, sparring, working the mits, plyometrics, and tons of core based weight training and bodyweight training was the way I was taught.

Maybe I am just missing this connection, as I stated everthing in boxing I learned seemed on a more organic level than this type of breakdown.

[Black Jack II]

Not sure if this link works but its Walter Jone's stance workout and it has a wallsit.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/football/nfl/specials/preview/2005/08/02/nfl.workout.jones0808/t1_jones1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/football/nfl/specials/preview/2005/08/02/nfl.workout.jones0808/&h=406&w=300&sz=45&hl=en&start=197&tbnid=NnJuX0lmJ3E1OM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=92&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dboxing%2Bstance%26start%3D180%26gbv%3 D2%26ndsp%3D18%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

As for horsestance structure and Boxing...I am still trying to figure out what Royal means as I have done my share of boxing training in a couple of clubs, working with crisp trade puglists to street brawlers to educated punchers, I have never met anyone who linked up those mechanics and never seen them as they are defined here.

Reply]
Look at any good boxer, they all have the same structure as developed by the horse stance. Look at the shoulders, the spine, the way they carry the chest, and the pelvis. It's all the exact same as what is developed in the horse stance. Just because they use a different method to get there does not mean they don't have it. All you have to do is look, and you see the rounded shoulders, the sunk chest etc...

I am not sure what you mean by organic learning, but looking at any good boxer, the method seems to work.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Black jack,
He's doing a Roman Chair. It's good and all, but takes too much of the work and gives it to the pole. I think an actual horse stance would work much better because you can feel how you are weighted to the ground, and must support your whole structure yourslef, instead of transfering a large portion to the pole.

Also, in a fight you don't have the pole to lean on, you only have yourself. A real horse stance would be more efficient for structure building. What he is doing is just muscle endurance for the quads. It's not going to be as efficent. It might be a good beginner's exercise to help start out at first, but not something to stick with.

[kwaichang]

If you guys are going to judge the knowledge of a person by a single post fine. But on the other hand I doubt that more than 1 or 2 of you can cite the components of a muscle much less how it works with stress over time. Since few if any of you have much knowledge of bio mechanics I attempted to keep things simple in my approach. So do this one of you guys squat 200 pounds 3x per week one of you hold a proper horse stance for 2-3 minutes 3x per week for a month then switch see if the horse stance is easier. Also stance training does not mean only standing in one place or one way. KC

[Black Jack II]

WOW...man Neal you have a serious mental illness.

First Lung, then Neil, then Megafot, now this, holy cow go out and get some fresh air.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

My guess is the guy holding Horse stance would have the easier horse stance, but would die trying to squat 200 lbs, but the guy sqatting 200 lbs would find it much easier to do that, than hold the horse stance.

How about this? I bet if we had a 3rd guy who sqautted 200 lbs, AND held horse stance for 3 minutes, 3 X a week, I bet he'd find it easy to do both after a time.

[Mr Punch]

You also hold the Bow stance, Twisted Horse stance, Empty stance, Snake stance, Monkey resting stance, and several others. There is also the practice of holding postures of transition in between stances, as well as moving very slowly though your forms and drills that goes with the stance work.hich is exactly what I've been talking about... but how many different stances are you going to be fighting with? There comes a point when training each and every one of these stances like this is just not useful in terms of time spent, and that point comes really quickly if you're not implementing these stances against moving resistance.


Just because they use a different method to get there does not mean they don't have it. All you have to do is look, and you see the rounded shoulders, the sunk chest etc...
Holy cack man! Even if some of it is superficially similar - The whole point is what method they use to get 'it'!!! It's nothing to do with the d@mn horse stance! It's gained primarily by punching things and people as BJ just outlined! So look at the title of the thread:

The role of (horse) stance training in (among many others) boxing... = fu(k all!

:D :D :D


No, WD started with that.He started it! RAOTFLMHO Holy sh!t grow up! (NB, he's not saying: No, he started it!)

[Black Jack II]

Wait...wait...wait.

KC do you do Shaolin Do????

Conversation over.:cool:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

He started it! RAOTFLMHO Holy sh!t grow up! (NB, he's not saying: No, he started it!)

Reply]
Well, go back and read the thread over again then....

[Mr Punch]

If you guys are going to judge the knowledge of a person by a single post fine.Have you got memory problems or something?! Don't make me go back and quote the posts where you called people stupid or ignorant (because you hadn't explained yourself properly or posted something that was blatantly wrong!) ! :D It's you who's been judging people left right and centre... Anyone remember Blooming Lotus?! :D


Also stance training does not mean only standing in one place or one way. KC[bangs head on wall] I've said this loads of times already on this thread, and so have others (the best put being that guy I quoted from the first page)... again, it's you who's banging on sounding exclusively about isometrics!

[Mr Punch]

Wait...wait...wait.

KC do you do Shaolin Do????

Dang, duped!

That would explain why despite 25 years qualification in whojamaflimminy he doesn't know diddlysquat about using traditional Chinese weight training tools!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Holy cack man! Even if some of it is superficially similar - The whole point is what method they use to get 'it'!!! It's nothing to do with the d@mn horse stance! It's gained primarily by punching things and people as BJ just outlined! So look at the title of the thread:

Reply]
That does not change the fact that holding horse stance is a really good way to do it. Maybe the Boxer's, and Muy Tai guys would get thier structure faster and more efficiently if they held some horse stance.

[Mr Punch]

That does not change the fact that holding horse stance is a really good way to do it. Do what, exactly?

Maybe the Boxer's, and Muy Tai guys would get thier structure faster and more efficiently if they held some horse stance.
:rolleyes:

[Mr Punch]

Do what, exactly?
Wait, no, I get it... get the stance that looks superficially like the horse stance that you do and no-one else does, except that it doesn't look anything like it, except that their tailbones are tucked in, except that in all my boxing classes, and even those when sensei was talking about sitting on the punch never once did he mention tuckng the tailbone in...

is that the it?

:D

[Becca]

That’s why everybody starts with very small weights (or should do!)!
Key word, should do. But many people think that just because they can lift X amount of weight that they are in fact not lift too much for the stabalizers. Or they don't stop when the muscles start to become over-fatigued. I have an OT for help in this. Most people just wing it, then mess up thier joints. Heck, I used to just wing it, now my hips are damaged perminantly...

What you’re not taking into account that weight trainers have already proportionately trained their stabilizers before they ever get on to bodyweight lifts or anything reckless.I did not say it, no. But I know it. I also know that most of the people out there lifting have no real training on how to, and many, many martial artists destry thier knees and sholders doing stupid stuff. Stance training and body weight training helps eleaviat this, so that's what I preach.:)

[Mr Punch]

Key word, should do. But many people think that just because they can lift X amount of weight that they are in fact not lift too much for the stabalizers. ...
I also know that most of the people out there lifting have no real training on how to, and many, many martial artists destry thier knees and sholders doing stupid stuff. Stance training and body weight training helps eleaviat this, so that's what I preach.:)
Yep, I know that's a big problem with a lot of lifters.

But please don't assume that bodyweight training and stance training are completely safe either... with bad advice in anything it can be dangerous: the horse puts an extreme amount of sheering force on the stabilizers around the base of the quads and behind the knee-cap, especially getting into stance in the first place: the same reason ATG squats are way safer than those that go only parallel to the ground.

[Becca]

Yep, I know that's a big problem with a lot of lifters.

But please don't assume that bodyweight training and stance training are completely safe either... with bad advice in anything it can be dangerous: the horse puts an extreme amount of sheering force on the stabilizers around the base of the quads and behind the knee-cap, especially getting into stance in the first place: the same reason ATG squats are way safer than those that go only parallel to the ground.
True. My OT has me do a series of non weighted exercised 2x daily that work just the stabilizers in the ankles, knees, hips, back, and neck as well as my rotator cuffs, elbows, and wrists. To work ones body at extreme ranges, you have to do it all: flexibility, ROM training, strength training, cardio, all of it. As a TCMA fan, ROM training means stance training.:)

(edited for spelling. ;) )

[Mr Punch]

To work ones boy at extreme ranges, you have to do it all: ... :)I work me boys as often as I can... thought we were talking about something else though! :D

Seriously, I'd be interested in those exercises if ever you have time to start another thread and describe them...

[Becca]

LOL! Not what I ment and you know it!:D

Guess that's what I get for posting while on hold. I think I'll take the time to review my spelling before hitting the send button...:p

[SevenStar]

How can you say it's not the same structure? I look at them and see rounded shoulders, sunk chest, tucked tail bones. Maybe not all of them have all the requirements, but all of them seem to have MOST of the requirements. Maybe they came about it thier own way, but the requirments are still being met, and the core structure is still there. You gott'a be blind not to see that.

dude. you are a shaolin do and cma guy... when did you box, kickbox, etc? what authority are you taking this on, looks alone?

I will give you that the structure looks similar. but where is the weight in a horse stance? where is it in a boxing stance? that alone makes the structure completely different. even geometrically speaking, all quadrillaterals are not square. why not? they are shaped differently. the have similarities,though.

I have never met a coach who tells you to tuck the tail bone - it's kept in a natural position. it's not arched out and it's not tucked. However, since it is relaxed, it LOOKS more tucked than arched.

the shoulders are rounded, but the chest is in a natural position, not necessarily sunk, though it LOOKS like it, as it is hidden behind a tucked chin and rounded shoulders, and is visibly not arched and sticking out. I will say though, that these two positions are more similar than the horse and the judo hip throw position, which is what your original argument was about.


Similarly, as I stated, unless you specifically fight from your horse, the structural benefits that you may gain from training it as an isometric exercise, ARE NOT CARRYING OVER.

wow, coincidentally, when I was in cma, I was taught NOT to fight from my horse. We had a stance for fighting, and all other stances were transitory - horse or something similar to it was a transition commonly used in throws.

[Becca]

wow, coincidentally, when I was in cma, I was taught NOT to fight from my horse. We had a stance for fighting, and all other stances were transitory - horse or something similar to it was a transition commonly used in throws.
I was taught that it is called 5*, but is really just a hight horse stance; not thieghs parallel, but same structure.

[SevenStar]

That does not change the fact that holding horse stance is a really good way to do it. Maybe the Boxer's, and Muy Tai guys would get thier structure faster and more efficiently if they held some horse stance.

it would actually take longer, because the time they are wasting holding a static horse is time that could be better spent doing partner drills, footwork drills, calesthenics, etc.

and what gauge to you have of determing how fast the average boxer perfects his stance?

[SevenStar]

I was taught that it is called 5*, but is really just a hight horse stance; not thieghs parallel, but same structure.

not ours - foot position was different, more like the jkd bai jong.

[Becca]

it would actually take longer, because the time they are wasting holding a static horse is time that could be better spent doing partner drills, footwork drills, calesthenics, etc.


Man, I hate having to agree with you.... Stance training is slow, and if you are not doing TCMA form work, not pertinant. Stance training, all of it, not just static holing, is designed around teaching the body to move in these low stances. a boxer does no have any use for the ability to shuffle or scoot in extreme low cat. They do shuffle and scoot, but not with butt 6 inches off the ground. TCMA has a need for this, even in fighting. But footwork drills are part of stance training. You ever string your stances together? This is a major part of stance training. It is also footwork...

[SevenStar]

If you guys are going to judge the knowledge of a person by a single post fine. But on the other hand I doubt that more than 1 or 2 of you can cite the components of a muscle much less how it works with stress over time. Since few if any of you have much knowledge of bio mechanics I attempted to keep things simple in my approach. So do this one of you guys squat 200 pounds 3x per week one of you hold a proper horse stance for 2-3 minutes 3x per week for a month then switch see if the horse stance is easier. Also stance training does not mean only standing in one place or one way. KC

Once again, you are taling about two different things here. endurance and strength. Given your what your degree is in, you should know this.

I will use myself as an example. I can squat 420 pounds for a few reps with no problem. However, I can no longer hold a 5 min horse, like I could when I was in CMA.

On the other hand, the guys I know who CAN hold a 5 min horse are nowhere near as strong as me. the horse training doesn't increase strength much, as they are holding the same weight for long periods of time. they are building muscular endurance.

If say, you and I do this experiment you posted, then at the end of the month, I will be squatting 420 and you will be holding horse for 3 mins. When we switch, you will struggle under the weight of the bar and I will struggle holding horse for more than 1 minute. Why? we are training two different things.

[SevenStar]

Man, I hate having to agree with you.... Stance training is slow, and if you are not doing TCMA form work, not pertinant. Stance training, all of it, not just static holing, is designed around teaching the body to move in these low stances. a boxer does no have any use for the ability to shuffle or scoot in extreme low cat. They do shuffle and scoot, but not with butt 6 inches off the ground. TCMA has a need for this, even in fighting. But footwork drills are part of stance training. You ever string your stances together? This is a major part of stance training. It is also footwork...

yeah, we strung them together, but since this thread has mainly focused around the horse, I didn't think it was relevant.

you raised my curiosity though, why do you think cma need to scoot and shuffle that low?

and that is correct - I am NEVER supposed to agree with you, shirkers1, earth dragon, sihing, 98% of the WC forum and it's rare that I should ever agree with RD. :D

[Becca]

yeah, we strung them together, but since this thread has mainly focused around the horse, I didn't think it was relevant.

you raised my curiosity though, why do you think cma need to scoot and shuffle that low?

and that is correct - I am NEVER supposed to agree with you, shirkers1, earth dragon, sihing, 98% of the WC forum and it's rare that I should ever agree with RD. :D
I use it to scoot under crescant kicks. I have short arms. Those kicking at the head see me drop low, they either finish the kick as planned or crange to an axe kick. I don't want to stand back up, and I don't want to stay and eat in, right? So I shuffle. And If I'm shulling, I might as well close in and to the side. Do it right and your set up for a side head lock.... Or an elbow to the face - you still gotta be careful.:D

[Royal Dragon]

dude. you are a shaolin do and cma guy

Reply]
I never did Shaolin Do, where did you get that from?

it would actually take longer, because the time they are wasting holding a static horse is time that could be better spent doing partner drills, footwork drills, calesthenics, etc.

Reply]
I don't do stance work when I have partners, i do it when I am alone and doing my personal practice. This is the time I did bag work when I had access to a bag as well.

I don't generally follow the Chinese method of standing everyday either, I like to stand one day, and do something else on the off days. Lately I have been lifting weights the other days because my upper body strength sucks. It's like the last thing to rebuild from all those health problems I had in 2001.

[SevenStar]

I never did Shaolin Do, where did you get that from?

chung moo do/quan.

[Royal Dragon]

Yup, that was the one...stop mentioning that...supposeldy it never happened...shhh!! ;)

[kwaichang]

If I read this thread and had never trained in CMA or any MA for that matter and see the way you guys talk to each other I would say that all you MA are a bunch of rude people with no sense of respect. I dont see how any of you learn. BTW there are little or no sheer forces generated with Static stance training as there is little or no movement and isometrics do build strength as well as endurance . The End KC

[Black Jack II]

If I read this thread and had never trained in CMA or any MA for that matter and see the way you guys talk to each other I would say that all you MA are a bunch of rude people with no sense of respect.

OMG...your the one being rude. Where can I buy a pair of those blinders at???

But again, your a SD guy, so that is all I need to know at this moment.:D

[kwaichang]

You are so blatantly Purile mister Jack Black the 2nd. I am SD and proud of it as I train in a real MA none of the MMA crap. KC

[SevenStar]

You are so blatantly Purile mister Jack Black the 2nd. I am SD and proud of it as I train in a real MA none of the MMA crap. KC

Wow, did you really just say that? Who will be next to jump off of an 11 story building?

[Becca]

Wow! It took 13 pages for this topic to degrade to a flame war???? This might be a KFO first!:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[SevenStar]

If I read this thread and had never trained in CMA or any MA for that matter and see the way you guys talk to each other I would say that all you MA are a bunch of rude people with no sense of respect. I dont see how any of you learn. BTW there are little or no sheer forces generated with Static stance training as there is little or no movement and isometrics do build strength as well as endurance . The End KC

a static horse - especially with the toes pointed forward - places great stress on the knee. Isometrics only build strength to a point, as you aren't continually and measurably increasing the resistance. Now, if you are holding weights while doing said exercises, then yes, you are correct. however, you still aren't building strength through the full ROM, meaning you will have to hold several positions.

As a side not though, what's with the notion that all MA must respect one another? I'm of the school that respect is given once it is earned.

[Black Jack II]

mma crap...mma crap???

http://www.shaolin-do.com/masters/SKong.jpg

Bwaahahaha!!

He must be the master of Fujian Dog Fighting style. That or a cousin to one of the muppets.

[BlueTravesty]

You are so blatantly Purile mister Jack Black the 2nd. I am SD and proud of it as I train in a real MA none of the MMA crap. KC.

Wow... so not only "should" I take it at face value that SD is the true inheritor of Shaolin Fighting techniques (which according to SD contingent on the "Is Shaolin-Do For Real" thread is supposed to be somehow self-evident [it's not]) but it's also supposed to be superior to MMA? MMA is a CONCEPT, a VENUE... How is a style better than a venue or concept? How can a venue or concept be compared to a style anyway?

Why couldn't a Shaolin-Do practitioner compete, anyway? The SD I saw at the school in my area had punches and kicks just like Muay Thai has punches and kicks, so you can't use the "Eye Gouges and groin kicks" argument. And for what it's worth, while Judge Pen did a good job against that "Shaolin" practitioner, that sparring match does not count.

[Royal Dragon]

You are so blatantly Purile mister Jack Black the 2nd. I am SD and proud of it as I train in a real MA none of the MMA crap. KC

Reply]
:eek:

[kwaichang]

All I know is i made one statement and most all of you guys jumped. Respect is not earned it is given to humans until proven otherwise. I can say what I want about MMA as I did JKD and Boxing and Judo and mixed them into a soup. It takes little or no discipline to follow a path with out a direction all of you guys argue over the use of stance training and if you did more of it you would respect it more. Also I did not say the knee did not have stress i said it does not provide sheer that is a different term and definition altogethor. again a lack of knowledge of body mechanics and terms by Black Jack no 2. Wrong again strength is gained through isometrics at all ROM as the greatest amount of tension is gained by the muscle at right angles as in the Horse stance. Though filament glide does not occur the depletion of calcium , potassium, and glocogen during the contraction causes mor Muscle fibers to come into play than a comparable concentric contraction as most neglect the essentric release anyway. KC

[kwaichang]

An isometric movement is a movement in which no movement occurs. An example is holding a weight in a semi-contracted and motionless state for a period of time. Another example is pushing on an immoveable object for a given period of time. Many of you have probably done the trick where you stand in a doorframe and with your hands by your sides, you press out again the doorframe as if you're doing a partial lateral raise.

You continue to push against the immoveable door frame for 30-45 seconds, and upon releasing the pressure, your hands tend to "float" up into the air. This is an example of an isometric movement.

It turns out Isometric exercises have several benefits for both strength athletes and bodybuilders.

Benefits Of Isometric Exercises:


Isometrics are purely "muscle" movements that place the stress entirely on the muscle fibers, eliminating reactive contribution, and even so they increase muscle motor unit recruitment above and beyond what you get from eccentric or concentric reps.
Activation refers to the recruitment of the motor-units in a muscle. One can recruit nearly all the muscle fibers during a maximal isometric contraction - something that doesn't happen with regular eccentric and concentric (down and up) repetitions. Basically, the more muscle you can recruit the more damage you can inflict and the more growth can occur. Not surprisingly, this dramatically enhances strength. Strength gains of 14-40% were found over a 10-week period using isometric action training.


Isometrics also allow you to prolong the Time under tension of a particular area or sticking point and thus add to the time the muscle is under tension as well. If you think about it, when performing the large majority of movements in the gym the actual working effect of those movements are over a very short range so a lot of the time spent completing repetitions is just wasted.
For example, when you do a bench press your pectorals are really only maximum tension in the range from just off your chest to ½ of the way up - the rest is all shoulders and triceps so if you consider the pause at the top you spend nearly 2/3 of the entire set working muscles OTHER than your chest.

The average set duration is something like 20-30 seconds. That means your chest may only be under tension for 10 seconds or less per set. With isometric training you can isolate a specific area of a movement for a given time thus prolonging the time the muscle is under tension which is largely responsible for the hypertrophy response.


Isometrics not only cause muscle breakdown themselves, but also cause an immediate increase in subsequent dynamic work as well, which basically means you can perform an isometric exercise and stimulate strength, growth, and actually have a strength carryover or an increase in strength with your next movement. This is something that has to be experienced but it is a welcome change. You can actually get stronger as the workout continues instead of having a loss in strength typical of most routines.

Isometric training done at a disadvantageous joint angle in a movement like near the bottom of a bench press or squat will have a strength carryover throughout all ranges of the movement.

Since isometrics stress the muscle vs the tendons, fascia, etc, they are useful for rehabilitation or training around injuries. I had a case of biceps tendonitis the for several months, and basically the only biceps movements I could do without pain were partial range lying cable curls and isometric preacher curls (stressing the bottom 1/3).
Not only is my tendonitis almost healed but my biceps have not lost any size and experimenting the other day I found out I am a good 15% stronger on every bicep movement due to the isometric preacher curls i've been doing.


Isometrics build muscle mass. In a recent experiment found an average size improvement of 12.4% for heavy isometric training and 5.3% with isometric training using weights equivalent to 60% of 1rm weight after a training period of 10 weeks.

Using Isometrics For Strength


To strengthen your bench press you could either get in a power rack and press the bar against an immoveable pin for a certain length of time, or hold a supra-maximal weight in a ¼ rep range for 6-20 seconds.

The first type of isometric movement, pushing against an immoveable object, is used only for strength, whereas the 2nd type, holding a weight and preventing it from moving, is best for strength as well as muscle growth. Personally, I prefer the 2nd type where you simply hold a weight in place for both strength and muscle growth.

Some say that when performing isometrics you will only strengthen the part of the movement you're training. For example if doing isometrics in a ¼ range bench press position you'll only strengthen that part of the movement. The truth is you will strengthen the part of the movement you're training, but you also get a 15-30 degree carryover and if you train at the most disadvantageous joint angle (like the bottom of a bench press or point in the squat where your thighs are parallel) you actually get a 100% strength carryover through the rest of the movement.

Strengthen your weak links and everything else strengthens as well. In other words, if you perform an isometric contraction a few inches off your chest in the bench press you'll tend to increase the strength of your entire bench press and the size of your entire chest! But if you only do isometrics over the easiest ¼ or 1/3 range in a movement you only get a 15-30 degree carryover.

If you really want to increase strength in a movement, using the bench press as an example, you'd simply use 3 different positions (bottom, mid-range, and top) and perform an isometric in each position. You'd perform isometrics in the contracted position near your chest, the midrange position, and then the extended position up top. A sample workout would be 2 sets of 10 seconds at each position with the lower position done first. For strength, each isometric contraction should last 20 seconds or less and ideally under 10 seconds.


Using Isometric Training For Muscle Growth


When using isometrics to increase muscle growth, you're able to put a muscle under high amounts of tension for a very long period of time. The total length of time a muscle is under tension is largely responsible for the amount of muscle growth stimulated from a workout. You will know just how effective this method is once you try it!

There are 3 ways to implement isometrics for muscle growth. The 1st in my opinion is the most effective form.



READ THIS KC

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

but also cause an immediate increase in subsequent dynamic work as well, which basically means you can perform an isometric exercise and stimulate strength, growth, and actually have a strength carryover or an increase in strength with your next movement. This is something that has to be experienced but it is a welcome change.

Reply]
I have experianced strength increases during stance work myself. I have actually had a few very profound instances of that where I suddenly felt strength pour on like a flood, that had never been there before that moment when I was about 2/3 of the way through major stance sets.

I have to say this though, these sudden jumps in development all occured when I was holding between 2 and 3 minutes each stance (I was doing a 9 stance set at the times). Once I was able to hold 3 minutes or more, I never had the experiance again. This personal experiance leads me to believe there is a limit to strength development through stance work, and that limit is very near the beginning of the practice.


Any strength I received after that point, came from polymetric type exercises I gleemed from Gymnastics training coaches

[SevenStar]

All I know is i made one statement and most all of you guys jumped. Respect is not earned it is given to humans until proven otherwise. I can say what I want about MMA as I did JKD and Boxing and Judo and mixed them into a soup. It takes little or no discipline to follow a path with out a direction all of you guys argue over the use of stance training and if you did more of it you would respect it more. Also I did not say the knee did not have stress i said it does not provide sheer that is a different term and definition altogethor. again a lack of knowledge of body mechanics and terms by Black Jack no 2. Wrong again strength is gained through isometrics at all ROM as the greatest amount of tension is gained by the muscle at right angles as in the Horse stance. Though filament glide does not occur the depletion of calcium , potassium, and glocogen during the contraction causes mor Muscle fibers to come into play than a comparable concentric contraction as most neglect the essentric release anyway. KC

you said something, several of us disagreed and responded. such is discussion and such is life.

respect is earned in my book, but there is really no point in us debating that.

please show me a study that says isometric exercise - one static position - strengthens through a whole ROM and not just a few degrees beyond the position being held.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Why does it only develop in such a short range of motion.

[SevenStar]

because it's static.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Doesn't tension effect the entire length of the muscle?

[kwaichang]

Yes , but studies show that Isometric contractions affect the muscle at 20 degrees at either side of the angle trained at in the case of the horse stance that is a range of 70 degrees to 110 degrees flexion ROM as most do not start a horse stance at 90 degrees and more like 70 degrees. ROM is increased as flexibility and strength are gained. so the Muscle is cond, and strengthened as you progress and tension does occur through out the entire Muscle belly However, most of the tension placed on the tendon muscle junction and the tendon bone junction causes a greater development to occur due to the fact that non contractile fibers are strengthened and by low intensity or gradual increased intensity over time and that is why Horse stance training is IMO more applicable to MA. It also increases joint strength as this occurs with the agonist and antagonist muscle groups. KC

[Mr Punch]

All I know is i made one statement and most all of you guys jumped. Read the thread again. I, for one, offered you no disrespect, before you started dissing others, and I don't remember anybody doing so (maybe BJ, but he's from Texas).
Respect is not earned it is given to humans until proven otherwise. Yeah, and don't expect yourself to earn it just because you say you have all this experience yet all you do is slight others who are trying to have a conversation with you.
I can say what I want about MMA as I did JKD and Boxing and Judo and mixed them into a soup. And that makes you qualified to talk on all MMA? Those arts on their own? That particular mix? **** all? Delete as appropriate!
It takes little or no discipline to follow a path with out a direction ...Your point is? Boxing/judo are ways without a direction? Shaolin do of course is the Ultimate Spiritual! ... but careful - you are trained to kill period - sounds like a dangerous path. News pal, the 'do' in Shaolin Do and Judo is the same.
all of you guys argue over the use of stance training and if you did more of it you would respect it more.i do it more than many here and less than a few, and always have. if you stopped whinging about how rude people are and realized how rude you yourself are being, you'd realize this discussion is about the extent of stance training, not whether to do it!
Also I did not say the knee did not have stress i said it does not provide sheer that is a different term and definition altogethor. Tell us the difference then... or is that too much like contributing to the discussion and not laying the law down? AFAIK, moving into horse stance and stopping with the thighs parallel to the ground will exert sheer stress on the knees, and holding it there will not make things any better. if you different enlighten us.
again a lack of knowledge of body mechanics and terms by Black Jack no 2. Again, rudeness, this time in attributing my comment to BJ. We are different people - just cos we disagree with some of your points doesn't mean we are part of a h0m0genous mass of 'wrongness'!

Practice what you preach, discuss, and stop being so ill-mannered!

[kwaichang]

Sheer occurs with movement, stress is tension in an area with or with out movement sheer occurs at different amounts dependant upon the flexion of the knee latest studies show shear and infrapatellar force increases between the ranges of 90- 110 deg then decreases this is measured per centermeter squared. I do not remember the exact amount though. Also because the Tibial rotation that occurs at the knee makes the knee more complex than just a hinge joint.

I may have been rude but that is how I perceved some of your writings prior to this. KC
Also if respect is only given to those who earn it few will ever deserve it.

[Mr Punch]

Sheer occurs with movement, stress is tension in an area with or with out movement sheer occurs at different amounts dependant upon the flexion of the knee latest studies show shear and infrapatellar force increases between the ranges of 90- 110 deg then decreases this is measured per centermeter squared. I do not remember the exact amount though. Also because the Tibial rotation that occurs at the knee makes the knee more complex than just a hinge joint. That concurs with what I said, doesn't it? Getting into the horse (as most seem to say this should be 90 deg) will put sheer force on your knees. The very point of stopping that motion at the point of getting into the stance will increase the muscles in play and therefore increase the effect of the sheer, no? If subsequently the sheer is not alleviated, and is instead held in the bad position, even if this then becomes stress, it cannot be good for your knees. This is why good weight training coaches recommend squatting ATG, as you can let the thigh reach the full extent of its ROM: to avoid the sheer force.

Please note, I'm not being rude, I'm just asking you some questions.


I may have been rude but that is how I perceved some of your writings prior to this. KC
Also if respect is only given to those who earn it few will ever deserve it.Trite, pompous homilies on respect don't change the fact that rudeness begets rudeness. So, although I checked back and definitely hadn't said anything perceivable as rude before you stated that you were 'talking to a bunch of morons', I'd just like to apologise if you found anything I said rude.

As for respect, **** it - I couldn't care less. I'm here to discuss, not to sell myself. If we can avoid (un)intentionally being rude that would be a good start.

[kwaichang]

With your definition then you are right that is ust not the classical definition. Sheer occurs when in this case the body is loaded sheer implies over loading such as weight and overuse with reps or both. By holding in a stance shear stops but tension remains movement causes sheer but holding does not decrease the sheer forces just stops the shering, but holds the force into the area. Typically shearing occurs most when the patella is not tracking well or with PFS pat/fem syndrome. KC

[Becca]

That concurs with what I said, doesn't it? Getting into the horse (as most seem to say this should be 90 deg) will put sheer force on your knees. The very point of stopping that motion at the point of getting into the stance will increase the muscles in play and therefore increase the effect of the sheer, no? If subsequently the sheer is not alleviated, and is instead held in the bad position, even if this then becomes stress, it cannot be good for your knees. This is why good weight training coaches recommend squatting ATG, as you can let the thigh reach the full extent of its ROM: to avoid the sheer force.


Cool. Someone got what I was saying earlier. Or at least understood it before reading my posts. :)

Isometric holds will put sheer force on your knee, it's not just getting into the position. You put a heavy box ontop of a light one, the heavy one will, in time, crush the one below it. Now I know this is crushing force, not sheering force, but the laws of physics that cause one, are the same ones that cause the other. If moving into a low stance puts uncomfortable pressure on your knees, or any other joint, you are either not yet strong enough to hold that pose, or you are doing it wrong. Trying to force your way through it will damage the joint. Properly done, stance training will build up the stabalizers so the joint is not what's holding your weight. Long stance holds build up endurance. Even a sprinter needs to build up endurance...

And I've lost track of who said it, but the argument was, indead, about weather it was worth it to hold a single stance for extended periods of time. Of course, if I hadn't had to dig through drivel to get to it...:mad:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

And I've lost track of who said it, but the argument was, indead, about weather it was worth it to hold a single stance for extended periods of time. Of course, if I hadn't had to dig through drivel to get to it...

Reply]
That was the topic before me and WD started fighting..which was before Punch and KC started fighting.

The original premis (if I remember) was that holding for 10 minutes or more is a waste. I say it's not Because the stance is to build strong structure, and when doing that, 20 minutes of holding give much better results than 10.

But if you are just working the Quads for muscular endurance, like WD seems to think stance work is for, then 10 minutes is not only plenty, but probably more than nessasary....and if you are useing the picture of the horse stance he posted, with all the really bad posture/structure, then the stance is useless, and you are better off not doing it at all. Doing squats instead or various types of polymetrics commonly seen in Gymnastics would be far more productive.

[Becca]

dunno. My quads become peanut butter after 5. I do Hindu squats, duck walk, and other goofy things to build up strength. Then static stances to teach the muscle to hold in a contracted position as long as it can. Then Stance exorcize to teach it to hold and release on my command with out cramping. Then Yoga to stretch the now peanut butter muscles so they won't turn to lumps like playdo left out over night.:D

[JDK]

Wow...alot of topics covered by what I thought was going to be a simple question with a simple answer.

Shame on me...;)

Seriously though...here is my 2 cents.

Adventure427 wrote:


The Role Of Stance trainning....

I got a few ideas from my post entitled "Stances in real fights?" ....but they were clearly geared towards a different topic so i hope this thread is cool with everyone and isn't too much of a repeat...

The Question: What do each of you feel the role of stance trainning is? Reason i ask is because i like to practice the stances, and just want to know why i'm doing it. I've heard of lots of reasons to. It's just been years, looking for a refresher. Also any tips on doing it?

I recently was able to hold the horse stance for 9minutes (whew) I can probably go even longer now as that was a couple to a few weeks ago. Thanks for comments in advance everyone

I too enjoy Stance Training Adventure427, ALL the various Chinese Stances...(from which, IMO.. are derived from the Basic Horse Stance)

Much of the topic has already been discussed, argued and debated in the last 14 pages of this thread.

My personal experience in having done everything including Traditional MA Training, ...Western Boxing, Wrestling , Grappling , Tai Chi and MMA...
is that it all depends on what Life-Long results the Individual is interested in obtaining...
or if such an individual has both a Life-Long training goal and a short-term training Goal.

To me...having trained at age 15 through my early 40's... I do have opinions on what has, and has not worked for me.

The best I have ever felt overall health-wise in my life, was and is when I consistantly practice my Traditional Stance training, Forms, Stretching, and isometric Chinese Power Exercises ( Arm-grabs, Tiger, etc....)..along with eating right and getting enough rest.

There are times I add heavy bag training, Increased Cardio Training and Weight Lifting.
I have noticed that I feel better, am less sore, and more balanced over-all when I stick to my early traditional Hung-gar/Choy li Fut training regime.

Stance training is an invaluable part of my over-all training.
It builds strength, endurance, patience, flexibilty, and a solid foundation from the ground up into my entire body, and combined with correct breathing it is a 30 minute work-out in itself !
In addtion, it is a great slow warm-up ( really important for me as I have gotten older) and when I practice Stance Training everyday....it compliments and enhances all other Traditional and Non-Traditional I do

I believe there are valid reasons for the more modern type of training, as a short-term goal.
My personal experience and observations over the years have shown me that today's typical UFC, Pride Fighting, and other No -holds -Barred Competition ( actually a misnomer..there are indeed "holds barred " as we all know)training is very vigerous, explosive, high energy and taxing on the human body as the individual grows older.

Yes....practicing this type of training has made me stronger, quicker and in better fighting shape in the short-term...no doubt about it.

The down side is...I , along with the majority of Martial Artists I know and have watched...cannot continue to practice this high-level of training for years at a time....without damaging their knees, hands, joints, back, brains, and other body parts.

AND......anyone that wins a No-Holds-Barred Sporting Event Title is usually under the age of 40-45. As with anything there are exceptions...;)

There are other venues of true no-hold-barred fighting I have attended and participated in..that defy this age barrier to an extent...but still...Father Time eventually wins out and the younger fighters in their mid 20's through their early 40's..."win" more than 50 percent of the time.

So...I prefer to train for life in a consistant work-out format that will allow me to continue training until I die.

The Traditional Arts are where I have found my best nich.

Stance training, stretching, and then a good 45 minute forms workout both slow and full-speed work the best for me personally.
This involves about 2 hours a day ( unless I am working on Iron Body, Palm, or other herbal plus special training regiment) .

Stance Training when done correctly...is essential for longevity, over-all health and a good strong Body from Feet to Head, for an entire Lifetime.

IMHO

JDK

[SevenStar]

Yes....practicing this type of training has made me stronger, quicker and in better fighting shape in the short-term...no doubt about it.

The down side is...I , along with the majority of Martial Artists I know and have watched...cannot continue to practice this high-level of training for years at a time....without damaging their knees, hands, joints, back, brains, and other body parts.

says who? unless you are competing on some level, yeah you can. My first judo coach is 80 and he still rolls. I know a guy who had a muay thai match to celebrate his 50th birthday. you can't compete on any level at an advanced age, because you simply won't be able to keep up with most of the younger guys. You can definitely keep training that hard though.


So...I prefer to train for life in a consistant work-out format that will allow me to continue training until I die.

if you were competing in shuai chiao, san da or any other cma contacct venue, you would have the same age limitation. As stated above, that is not a trainign limitation.


Stance Training when done correctly...is essential for longevity, over-all health and a good strong Body from Feet to Head, for an entire Lifetime.


without medical evidence, that is not known.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think the whole injury thing depends on how hard you are training, and what level you compete at. Also, it's a matter of how *Smart* You train too.

I think haveinng your joints locked out in submissions on a regular basiss has got to be bad for them. I would not be suprised to find that in thier advanced ages, today's MMA guys have very arthritic elbows and other joints that are commonly locked.

[SDJerry]

This may have been mentioned before in the previous posts but I didn't see it. I feel it is possible that stance training also teaches the transfer of power from one part of the body to another? For example when throwing a punch, the transistion from a horse stance to a bow stance gets your hips involved which is where the power comes from.

In a real fight you probably won't do that exact move, but the stance training teaches the concept punching with more than just your arm. Any thoughts?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What your talking about is mechanics. Your various stances are used during various motions, but stances don't really train the motion, they train the skeletal alignment *Used* during that motion..

[SDJerry]

What your talking about is mechanics. Your various stances are used during various motions, but stances don't really train the motion, they train the skeletal alignment *Used* during that motion..

Maybe I'm confused on the term "stance training". If you're talking about just holding a stance for a given period of time... well then you're right. To me you're training the mind just as much there as the body. It's to see how long you can do something that is uncomfortable. If you're wanting to work the legs there are far better ways to do that... like kettlebell training :)

If you are talking about forms and paying close attention to your stances and transitions... then this helps to teach "mechanics". Good point... that is more of what I was talking about. If you go through your forms sloppy and don't hit the stances then you miss out on all that.

[Becca]

This may have been mentioned before in the previous posts but I didn't see it. I feel it is possible that stance training also teaches the transfer of power from one part of the body to another? For example when throwing a punch, the transistion from a horse stance to a bow stance gets your hips involved which is where the power comes from.

In a real fight you probably won't do that exact move, but the stance training teaches the concept punching with more than just your arm. Any thoughts?
This is more closely related to forms or kata work... Which is a whole nother flammin b1tch war.;)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You don't just make sure you hit the stances, the motions in between are critical too. You have to make sure you maintain the structure during the transitions as well. You have to maintian it through out the entire movement.

Holding the stance just developes it in the first place, moving takes it to the next level. You have to work your mechanics as much as you have to strengthen the structure used in the course of those mechanics.

[SevenStar]

I think the whole injury thing depends on how hard you are training, and what level you compete at. Also, it's a matter of how *Smart* You train too.

I think haveinng your joints locked out in submissions on a regular basiss has got to be bad for them. I would not be suprised to find that in thier advanced ages, today's MMA guys have very arthritic elbows and other joints that are commonly locked.

I don't know for sure, but I know none of the guys I work with do - and we have a 40 year old bjj brown belt / judo black belt - he's been getting subbed for a long time and he's fine. But sometimes you have to be smart when tapping as well. If you know there is no hope of defending the lock, tap. the thing here is that you have to be careful not to get into the habit of tapping early whenever you are locked. Only do it when you know the lock is inevitable and is already in progress.

[Toby]

Holy shit! This thread makes me feel like it's 2003 again. Some of the names are different (one of the old ones was mentioned by Mr Punch ;)), but the arguing is timeless. Strong work, gentlemen (and lady).

[Mr Punch]

Hey Toby. The sh!t we have to go through to get quality posters out of Lurksville again!

[Toby]

Good to see you Mr Punch. Old timers here know my opinion. I'm with the correct, WD, 7* (despite his lack of street cred), Mat, etc.

Anyway, here's my take: I do an art that doesn't really have stance training. We do a bit of ma bu but it's really the "test of mental strength" scenario that others mentioned. I'm sure some of you find it valuable, but to me I'd rather spend more time training more important things. Far more valuable to me (for leg training) is chi gerk, or xing yi fists, or WC forms, or anything else that requires me to train my legs to work how I'm going to use them. Structure is important, so I train san ti and sil lum tao and I'm aware they're regarded as important in my school, but I prefer to get the legs working how they're going to be working when I need them. Not standing in a static pose.

Why don't Ford, Iron, Vash chime in now?

[IronFist]

Good to see you Mr Punch. Old timers here know my opinion. I'm with the correct, WD, 7* (despite his lack of street cred), Mat, etc.

Anyway, here's my take: I do an art that doesn't really have stance training. We do a bit of ma bu but it's really the "test of mental strength" scenario that others mentioned. I'm sure some of you find it valuable, but to me I'd rather spend more time training more important things. Far more valuable to me (for leg training) is chi gerk, or xing yi fists, or WC forms, or anything else that requires me to train my legs to work how I'm going to use them. Structure is important, so I train san ti and sil lum tao and I'm aware they're regarded as important in my school, but I prefer to get the legs working how they're going to be working when I need them. Not standing in a static pose.

Why don't Ford, Iron, Vash chime in now?

I just found this thread. lol.

15 pages? Can someone give me Cliff's notes?

Wait, I can probably guess what happened. Ok. The bolded parts below are points that I assume people made in this thread. The non-bold below them are my replies.

Stance training develops leg strength which can help you kick harder
- Stance training will not significantly increase the power of your kicks (not including beginners with no muscle training prior to stance training). Stance training will marginally increase the power your legs can generate while they're in the position of the stance, but this is only marginal because it is only a low-tension exercise, which leads me to...

It's not low tension. My legs shake like hell after 10 minutes
- By the the very nature of you being able to hold it for 10 minutes (or 1 minute), it is not a "high tension" exercise. Your muscles can work hard, or they can work long, but not both. High-tension exercises are measured in seconds, not minutes.

Back to my other point, since you're holding them for so long, you're developing endurance specific to your legs being in that position. A 90 degree horse stance is training your legs to be able to endure lots of stress while your knees are bent to 90 degrees. And this is the reason it's not increasing the power of your kicks.

Stance training improves your footwork in a fight
- Static stances are not held in fighting so you are not improving your fighting skills by holding stances for long periods of time. When was the last time you used a horse stance in a fight? If you can answer this question, then the next question is when is the last time you won a fight?

Stance training develops "root"
- When was the last time being "rooted" helped you win a fight?

Stance training develops perserverence, confidence, and will
- I'll agree to this one

Stance training has caused my legs to tire less quickly when I fight
- I would agree to this one, too

Those are the usual arguments that get brought up in a stance training discussion. Let me know if I missed any.

Oh, stance training is a part of TMA. I won't deny that. But once you're familiar with them, and once you can hold them long enough to perform your forms adaquately, there's really no reason IMO to continue doing them. The only benefit you get from increasing your horse stance is the ability to hold your horse stance longer.

[Water Dragon]

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1572045

Part III: Isometric Emphasis Methods

Isometric means "same measure" or "same length." So an isometric action occurs when a muscle produces force without changing the length of the involved muscle(s). In other words, you're tensing your muscles but no movement occurs.

There are several ways of using isometric contractions in a training program and I'll describe them in a minute. But first let's review the benefits of isometric training (list adapted from my latest book, High-Threshold Muscle Building):

1. Isometric work can help you improve the capacity to recruit high threshold motor units over time, especially in beginners and individuals with an inefficient CNS. This is because you normally recruit 5-10% more MUs during a maximal isometric action than during a concentric one.

2. Isometric exercises are characterized by a high level of force production which can be used to stimulate HTMUs into growth and strengthening.

3. You can use isometric movements to potentiate regular lifting exercises by performing a maximal isometric contraction lasting 5-10 seconds, 2-3 minutes prior to your regular lifting set.

4. If you have a specific weak point in a certain lift, you can rely on isometric exercises performed at that sticking point to correct the problem. This is because the training effect on strength is highly angle-specific.

5. Isometric work is much less energy-costly than regular lifting. It won't cause much muscle damage either. So you can recover faster from isometric work than from other types of training.

6. Several athletic actions require isometric strength. It's especially important for individuals participating in sports where a fixed body position is used or where frequent changes of direction are required.

[kwaichang]

Water dragon I agree if you read any of my posts I attempted to convey the same thing so GOOD LUCK. KC

[Becca]

Mostly a debate between those who don't beleive in stance training because they feel there are more efficient ways of training and those who feel that stance training is invaluable, that the other mothods are just "other" and not "better."

RD and WD demonstrated that 2 people from the same school can come away with totally diferant perspectives.

7* still doesn't have any use for traditional training methods unless they are grappling oriented.

and everyone thinks they know more about the science of how the body works than bonified doctors.:D

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

RD and WD demonstrated that 2 people from the same school can come away with totally diferant perspectives

Reply]
I would not say WD and I are from the same school...it's more like I was working out with those guys for a short time, and spent some class time with WD.

Both WD and i had a good amount of prior experiences, and well as post experience since that time. All of which flavored our perspective. My past included heavy stance work. I get the impression WD's did not.

What I found is the real benefits of the stance work do not start kicking in untill around the 15 to 20 minute mark. I know guys who feel you should be able to hold each individual stance for an hour. I personally don't feel it is necessary to hold it that long (unless you are trying to be a master), but 15-20 minutes is needed to really get what it's all about and see those results. Anything less than that is just a mental toughness, muscular conditioning practice. Yes, shorter times build the structure as well, but holding it a good 20 minutes really makes it come together.

[bodhitree]

and everyone thinks they know more about the science of how the body works than bonified doctors.:D


That could be because they read it from bonified individuals.

I'll say Ironfist's post sums it up. If you are a complete beginner stance training may develop some power, but not the type you want in your kicks.

I've also heard seven say it before

if you want more explosive movement train with explosive movements.

[SevenStar]

Mostly a debate between those who don't beleive in stance training because they feel there are more efficient ways of training and those who feel that stance training is invaluable, that the other mothods are just "other" and not "better."

RD and WD demonstrated that 2 people from the same school can come away with totally diferant perspectives.

7* still doesn't have any use for traditional training methods unless they are grappling oriented.

and everyone thinks they know more about the science of how the body works than bonified doctors.:D

I'm not a grappler. I am a muay thai guy who trains grappling. regardless, traditional training has it's place - pulley training and stone lock training are traditional strength training methods. Both may offer progressive resistance and increased strength. Stance training specifically is what I find pretty much pointless from a context of fighting. My doctor agrees with me. :p

[SevenStar]

..........

That could be because they read it from bonified individuals.

I'll say Ironfist's post sums it up. If you are a complete beginner stance training may develop some power, but not the type you want in your kicks.

I've also heard seven say it before

if you want more explosive movement train with explosive movements.

bingo

[kwaichang]

Other than an Orthopedic Surgeon or an Osteopath a doctor typically knows little about muscles and how they work etc. I had a friend who was a doctor for 25 years a GP that is and he asked me to look at his sons elbow , I said you are the Doctor he said but you know muscles etc. KC

[Becca]

That could be because they read it from bonified individuals.

I'll say Ironfist's post sums it up. If you are a complete beginner stance training may develop some power, but not the type you want in your kicks.

I've also heard seven say it before

if you want more explosive movement train with explosive movements.

But static stance training is only one facet of stance training as a whole. And if you read far enough back in this monstrosity of a thread, you will find the debate began around static stance training and weather or not holding them for extremely long periods can benifit the practitioner. The traditionalist like me think there is. Others think that while there may be some benifits to the beginer, there are other, better ways to develop strenght and explosive power.

And I say to this, if all you are after is explosive power, go jump in the pool and work on your butterfly or back stroke. Those two are the most effective practical exersizes to build functional strenth and endurance.

But that doesn't meen I don't get exactly what I need from stance training.;)

[dougadam]

Stance training also helps with your posture. :)

[SevenStar]

But static stance training is only one facet of stance training as a whole. And if you read far enough back in this monstrosity of a thread, you will find the debate began around static stance training and weather or not holding them for extremely long periods can benifit the practitioner. The traditionalist like me think there is. Others think that while there may be some benifits to the beginer, there are other, better ways to develop strenght and explosive power.

because it develops neither. prolonged stance training builds endurance. Not strength and explosiveness. stance training is great for building muscular endurance along a limited range of motion.


And I say to this, if all you are after is explosive power, go jump in the pool and work on your butterfly or back stroke. Those two are the most effective practical exersizes to build functional strenth and endurance.


kicking in the water can produce more explosive kicks. swimming is awesome, but not specific to MA - I wouldn't swim with the aim of improving my fighting or ma technique.

[Royal Dragon]

because it develops neither. prolonged stance training builds endurance. Not strength and explosiveness.

Reply]
Correct, unles you are adding wieghted vests to your stance work as well, then you ARE building more strength as well as endurance. It's just not going to compare to the explosivenes a good polymetric routine would build.

Stance work builds a resistance to getting your structure compromised, as well as good rooting (which is fundementally tied to good structure)


stance training is great for building muscular endurance along a limited range of motion.

Reply]
Correct, which is why there are so many postures that are held.

[Becca]

Reply]
Correct, which is why there are so many postures that are held.
's also why there is more to stance training than hold extreme low stances for hours.

Doesn't mater. 7's obviously in the mood to take things out of context then call it wrong because he rearanged the words.... second time this week for me.:rolleyes:

[Becca]

kicking in the water can produce more explosive kicks. swimming is awesome, but not specific to MA - I wouldn't swim with the aim of improving my fighting or ma technique.
does it have to be spacific to to martial arts to benifit your martial arts? If you can't take a powerful kick developed in the water and apply that to your kicking on land what kind of "artist" are you?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Never been a fan of stance training, though I did my share, If I have 20 minutes to "burn" I think that it could be better spent doing something else for my fighting skill.

The whole "testing of a new students resolve" thing makes more sense than just holding a stance to "build strenght" or whatever.

MA are dynamic physical endevours, explosive and fast paced.
Very little place of static postures.

[Water Dragon]

There's a lot of benefit to stance besides strength and structure. We just weren't discussing those in this thread as far as I was aware. I do 13 postures from S.C. about 4-5 times a week, but I do it for stretching and balance, not strength. Different focus, different result. There's also holding post exercises, and although I don't so that currently, I have in the past and think there's a lot of good benefit there.

This thread is talking about stances for strength, and to a lesser extent, structure. I just feel that you get more strength form weights, and better structure through partner work.

[Royal Dragon]

This thread is talking about stances for strength, and to a lesser extent, structure. I just feel that you get more strength form weights, and better structure through partner work.

Reply]
Stance work only builds strength up to about the point where you can hold for 2-3 minutes. after that it's just muscular endurance and structure building.

Two man work is important too, but it is more for learning to USE that structure under load (Via mechanics), rather than developing it in the first place. Not saying you can't develop good structure through two man work, it's just not as efficent for that job (Too much going on at once).


I used to do push hands alot with a Taiji friend. It really helped me put a lot together that was independant before. Holding stances, or drilling in the air would never do that...however push hands isn't really good at developing the structure to begin with...stance work is much more effective for that.

Stance work is the base. Solo mechanics drills come next. Twoman work refines and makes it useable, and sparring teaches you to fight with the whole package.

It's all progessive, like anything else.

To a certian degree, Seven Star may have a point that it does the most good for the person newer to the game, and once the ability is developed it just needs to be maintained. Your twoman practice should in theory work for that. At some point, it's just a tool in the box, to be used when you need it, not regularly.

[No_Know]

My concepts about strengthening the legs. It is more for secondary, tertiary development. Also the bending happens after feet are planted. This forms a basis from which stretching can happen. Lengthening while holding firm; might get you more power at higher levels of flexibility.

But I find stances (the first five Hung family stances at least are for abdominal something or other. When you waver; you exercise more of the stabalization for the whole range of the abdominal (depending on fist position--shoulder setting). But also the flanks and lower back and neck.

Breathing while you weave this flexible hard shell makes a nest for the lungs so that in movemants they can move with you in shiftnig positions perhaps.

It seems to improve the power of my Foot. I can turn , small adjustments with just my ankle and foot working as contact/pivot points. Perception of weight shiftying only improves my ability to make quick short moves that assist in avoidance or positioning.

Horse riding stance is not for leg strengthening so much as for flexibility. It develops the foot the flanks the abdomin including around the stomach and solarplexus thereby rib ends. Also, upper back pectoralis forearms triceps and neck. My think.

The stances usefullness is in providing a safety zone that must be reached O v e r to get to you. I like shifting with a slight upand switch my feet under me with my body remaining, basically.

I No_Know

[SevenStar]

's also why there is more to stance training than hold extreme low stances for hours.

Doesn't mater. 7's obviously in the mood to take things out of context then call it wrong because he rearanged the words.... second time this week for me.:rolleyes:

I didn't rearrange anything - I am quoting exactly what you are typing. you just misconveyed what you meant twice this week.

[SevenStar]

does it have to be spacific to to martial arts to benifit your martial arts? If you can't take a powerful kick developed in the water and apply that to your kicking on land what kind of "artist" are you?

1. I mentioned kicking, you mentioned swimming.

2. the benefit depends on what you are trying to do. from an aspect of fighting, no I would not be swimming. In general, yeah it's fine. When you compete, you want specificity. swimming is not specific to fighting.

[MasterKiller]

OK, so I'm watching TUF the other night, and they are carrying what looks like 50-lb medicine balls and crab walking in horse stance.

WTF does that have to do with fighting?

[Becca]

Duck walk with the medicine ball? Crab walk with it on the belly? I'm not sure how you'd do a crab walk in horse stance, but the first two I mentioned are part of the endurance end of stance training in KF and part of conditioning for working off your back in many grappling styles.


Building endurance in extreme ranges of motion. You need it while rolling. Doesn't mater how good your technique is if you don't have the gas when you need it.

[MasterKiller]

They were holding horse and crab walking sideways.

Just wondering how it applies to specificity. ;-)

[sanjuro_ronin]

They were holding horse and crab walking sideways.

Just wondering how it applies to specificity. ;-)


It breaks up the monotony of training.

[MasterKiller]

yeah, because pro atheletes always waste time just breaking up the monotony.

[sanjuro_ronin]

yeah, because pro atheletes always waste time just breaking up the monotony.

Why would you think its a waste of time? that's just silly.

Look at boxers, they do road work, could their cardio be more improved by doing the same amount of time on the bag or sparring and have more effect on their boxing?
Yes.
But you can only do so much bag work and so much sparring, road work breaks the monotony and keeps the cardio there.
Any boxing coach will tell you that if he is straight forward or cares enought to answer.

You think supplementary work like that is for what?

You think that bouncing up and done with a medicine ball makes you a better fighter? or road work is better than actual sparring to build up your cardio for fighting?
Of course not.

The fact is, variety keeps the workouts alive and the intensity going.
Common sense.

[Becca]

Isn't a crab walk where you are walking around on your hands and feet but face up with your bum twards the floor?

Or do you meen standing in horse stance and scooting sideways? If so, that's standard stance training. It's to teach you how to move around quickly without breaking root or "bobbing" your head.

[Royal Dragon]

The human body chnges best with variety. The ore yu can cange up your workouts, the better yu develop. That is why there are stance sets are 18 or more moves long. You don't just hold horse.

That is also why we do crab walks, water bugs, monkey jacks and a whole host of other things that are more general conditioing instead of just doing super sport specific drills all the time.

Don't do just pushups, do them wide, hands under shoulders, triangles, Dive bombs, circle pushups, mix pushups with bench pressing the bar, and dumbells, do one hand pushups, do them with one hand more forward, and another more back, do them on knuckles, finger tips, palms, knife hands, back of wrists. Do them fast, slow, even hold them halfway up. Do them however you can come up with, but make sure you allways do them differently.

This goes for every exercise you do, including your stances. Don't be afraid to hold half horse, or hold them at different levels. Hold Bow stance, Twisted Horse, then horse. Take the postures in your forms and hold them in different orders, hights or even do the transitions in between instead of the main postures. Just make sure every so often you change things up.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The human body chnges best with variety. The ore yu can cange up your workouts, the better yu develop. That is why there are stance sets are 18 or more moves long. You don't just hold horse.

That is also why we do crab walks, water bugs, monkey jacks and a whole host of other things that are more general conditioing instead of just doing super sport specific drills all the time.

Don't do just pushups, do them wide, hands under shoulders, triangles, Dive bombs, circle pushups, mix pushups with bench pressing the bar, and dumbells, do one hand pushups, do them with one hand more forward, and another more back, do them on knuckles, finger tips, palms, knife hands, back of wrists. Do them fast, slow, even hold them halfway up. Do them however you can come up with, but make sure you allways do them differently.

This goes for every exercise you do, including your stances. Don't be afraid to hold half horse, or hold them at different levels. Hold Bow stance, Twisted Horse, then horse. Take the postures in your forms and hold them in different orders, hights or even do the transitions in between instead of the main postures. Just make sure every so often you change things up.

This is totally applicable to supplementary exercises like I noted above, not so much for the "core" of your workout, ie: fighting.
But also great for equipment work like the pads and the HB.

[Becca]

They were holding horse and crab walking sideways.

Just wondering how it applies to specificity. ;-)

ok. episode 7? found a clip of it; thinkI know what you're talking about.

Making a stab at explaining the use of this as a drill. Have you ever done clinching drills from a high stance then from a low stance? It changes your ballance. Moving with the medicine ball in your arms is 'sposed to simulate trying to move in low clinch to wrangle for position.

Ok. That isn't a great description, but it's the best I got.

[MasterKiller]

ok. episode 7? found a clip of it; thinkI know what you're talking about.

Making a stab at explaining the use of this as a drill. Have you ever done clinching drills from a high stance then from a low stance? It changes your ballance. Moving with the medicine ball in your arms is 'sposed to simulate trying to move in low clinch to wrangle for position.

Ok. That isn't a great description, but it's the best I got.

I was actually trying to bait 7* with that question, as these pro MMA fighters are essentially doing stance training. It's not directly applicaple to fighting, but more about alignment, endurance and pain tolerance...

[Becca]

OK, I'll sut up and let you bait Sev. :D

But it was a good question; kept me thinking half the day. :)

[SevenStar]

OK, so I'm watching TUF the other night, and they are carrying what looks like 50-lb medicine balls and crab walking in horse stance.

WTF does that have to do with fighting?

sounds like an endurance exercise, like duck walking or hell, stance training. I would have to see it though - got a clip?

it could be an exercise in lower body explosiveness, similar to the keg carry that powerlifters do. 50ls is awfully light for that though.

Here's the question though - is it something they do all the time (doubtful) or is it something they just did on tuf that night? That doesn't coincide with anything I have ever seen in regards to fight training.