Internal- Mike Patterson's theroy?

[Stranger]

I was just reading on another thread about the internal arts other than Tai chi, Pakua, and Hsing-i. Mike Patterson argues that the whole internal/external and hard/soft debate is BS and relatively new. In good kung fu, those sttributes should always appear. He claims that the internal arts refer to those based on internal (domestic) Chinese theories and principles ie. Taoism, whereas the external (foreign)comes from theories and principles imported into CHina ie. Buddhism.

How do you feel about this take on the subject?

"Luminous beings are we."

[WenJin]

North South internal External soft hard all incorrect. Just generalisations made by writers and the like. Essentially attempting to make classifications so it is easier to discuss.

[count]

Stranger,
If you are interperating Mike's theory correctly then I would say that other contries outside of China have martial arts that are mainly internal. it isn't philosophy or religion that make an art internal either, although some philosophy or religion can help focus on bringing it inside.

Internal arts simply focus on internal development first and external application second. External arts simply focus on applications first and internal foundation second. No art is complete without both! All Chinese martial arts have both. Not all instuctors understand both. Some place greater importance on one.

[RAF]

The Count and Mike Patterson are correct. Even the term qi gong didn't come into play until the 1950s.

A fine line must be drawn between martial arts training and conditioning and the philosophy.

To the extent that training principles coincide or can be interpreted along philsophical lines thats great. So typical of the west or eastern intellectuals enamored with the west, we constantly must reduce and interpet to philosophy and/or science. Again thats not to say there aren't linkages and connections, but the obsession is terrible.

As in a previous post, science is our mythology that we live out of. We just assume that it explains everything along with the need to classify and predict. We think out of our head too much. There is a whole of experiential learning and body awarenss. The internal/external exposition can be boiled down to one principle: correct and constant practice and Patterson has that right!

[TheBigToad]

You guys need to make up your minds about this. First its Internal is the highest level, and then its, there is no such difference between internal and external systems and somehow its just western writers making such a distinction....
You mean to tell me that arts like Xingyiquan, Taijiquan and Baguazhang work on the exact same principles as say Shotokan Karate?? That is total BS.

So why are all these top level Hung Gar people learning Taijiquan or Baguazhang if Hung Gar is an internal art anyway? Why aren't people like Dr. Xei Pei, Mike Patterson, Park Bok Nam, Vince Black, George Xue, and a ton of other very accomplished Internal Martial artists running to learn Hung Gar? You know why, because Hung Gar is NOT an internal art in the same scope that Taijiquan, Baguazhang or Xingyiquan is thought of as internal, and when you want to learn how to be internally powerful you practice internal systems. Baguazhang people DO NOT say" Hmmm I want to further develop my internal strength, I'll go learn Hung Gar...NO, they learn to deepen their ability to relax and increase their practice of Baguazhang.

Even the old masters such as Wang Shu Jing, Sun Lu Tang, Li ZuMing all said Bagua, Taiji, Xingyi where all "internal" arts and worked differently, and are practiced differently, and somehow you guys know better then they did?

[RAF]

Are you closing yourself off from learning different styles or at least being open to understanding them?

I've known a few northern stylsts who took time away from their study of bagua to exchange with White Crane practitioners. How about Yang Jwing Ming? Northern Shaolin, Taiji and White Crane.

For the record, Liu Yun Qiao did not make this distinction of internal v. external. He is as well educated and skilled as anyone you cite. His record is there for the viewing.

So now what?

[Stranger]

COunt,

I don't know, that's why I'm asking what more experienced martial artists believe. It is just confusing because some people define internal as working more heavily upon chi, others say it is simply body mechanics (which brings a lot of non-Chinese arts into the category), and now I am reading that it is merely a description of the geographical origin of the art in relation to CHina (internal=domestic and external=foreign). Some people say there are three internal styles, you mentioned several others, and some woul add baji, piqua, etc. As a curious bystander with no experience, I am just trying to become familiar with your language.

"Luminous beings are we."

[TheBigToad]

I don't find its all that worth while to take time out of my studies to REALLY learn another method. In my mind thats nothing but counter productive in the sense which the principles and methods I use work best in the context for how I use them. I don't mean this as an "exchange" of information, looking at and appreciating what others, maybe finding a variation on a technique. However If I want to learn, "really learn" White Crane I would have to stop my practice of Bagua and dedicate my self to White Crane, and what would be the point of that in the practical sense? I study and practice Bagua not White Crane, when I work I use Bagua not White Crane, learning white crane could cause conflict in my self cause a loss of flow in my sometimes overtly dangerous work.

I don't care that White Crane might have a type of Fa-Jing or type of Yielding, not unlike Bagua, however since it is not Bagua I find it is only a waste of time to again investigate another system to get anything of real practical usage out of it when what I have as serve well incredibly well.

I refuse to fall into a very common situation is knowing much about mothing and able to use much less. You can talk about how White crane does this and Taijiquan does this and Bagua does this, ever leanering yet never applying, and the only semi-impressive energy is the viberations of your voice from out your mouth, and little in the way of energies and techniques from your body.
Jack of all trades, Master of none is truly useless.

I will admit I'm not familiar with Liu Yun Qiao, however what one man says does not so easily unbalance and or carry much weight me with at
least, while many others, as you readily admit being of the same skill and education say otherwise.

There is an idea:

A wise man is a wise man and a wise man can act the fool.

A fool is a fool, but can't act the wise man.

What I mean by this is certainly lets say; Wang Su Jin could apply near all his internal methods to maybe Shotokan Karate and make it work very well, because he learned what internal is by long and dedicated training in internal arts.
A shotokan, lets say even a shotokan master could not apply his training to baguazhang or taijiquan and have it be even close to effective and functional to the standards of someone like Wang Shu Jin or Sun Lu Tang.

I will readily admit I could be very wrong in this idea, and maybe something like TaeKwonDo and Baguazhang are very similar and in-fact share many of the same governing principles, but until then I will remain somewhat comfortable in the idea that is indeed more internally minded systems and more external minded systems and there is a bold seperation between the two.

[count]

All styles are internal at the highest levels. It's just that some styles focus on internal development from the beginning. Even Shotokan Karate relies on proper alignment, proper balance in relaxation and tension, the breath and chi to get power from their strikes. White Crane Kung Fu is an excellent example of a hard style that is extremely internal. Baji Chuan makes it really clear. There is Chan Su Jin in Longfist and in Tai Chi Chuan. I think the only differences between styles are in angles of attack and defense and strategies. The methods of training may be different. Just different paths up the same mountain. Maximum effect from minimum effort. In order to get maximum effect your internal structure must be perfect. Doesn't matter how it got there. For me there is no debate here. I don't understand why anyone who has not practiced an art for a long time, would even comment on whether another art is internal or not. How many knowledgeable teachers of internal arts don't practice other styles? Wasn't Tung Hai Chuan already a martial artist before he learned bagua? Didn't Yang Cheng Fu know longfist before Tai Chi Chuan? Why couldn't a Shotokan master understand principles behind bagua and make them work?

Kevin, I am surprised when I hear anyone in martial arts say they are not familiar with Liu Yun Chaio. There are more than 30,000 practitioners of his lineage around the world. The styles of his system include Chang Chuan, Praying Mantis, Baguazhang, Baji Chuan, Piqua Zhang, Hsing-I, Mizong Chuan, Tai Chi Chuan and more. I have not learned them all but I have seen enough of them to recognize power issues, techniques, and spirit. Learning within this system I can only say that there are many similarities between styles and fewer differences. But all of them have the same requirements. Hard work, practice and the desire to learn. The levels of development may vary but the results are the same.∞

[Destrous9]

I am relatively new to the practice of internal arts, specifically ba gua.

My basic understanding has always been:

Internal art = build the internal foundation first, external later. Become the art, profoundly understand the art, calm the soul, understand the principles and foundations, then apply the art.

External art = build the external foundation first, fortify the internal later. Become physically proficient at the movements and applications, then calm the soul, understand the what's and why's, dig deeper.

Internal may mean many things to many people, but for me, as of right now it generally means:

1) Chi development
2) Development of the proper training mindset (or at peace, with full concentration on the body, it's feel, mechanics, etc)
3) Philosophical understanding of the art (i.e. ba gua to the i-ching)
4) A deeper understanding of all of the art's foundations and principles...not just being able to do a stance, but to understand the stance's purpose in relation to the art.
5) Development of good martial ethics

I understand there is much more to internal arts than this, and I am still learning.

My appreciation for ba gua comes from a highly internal level. I study the Tao, and believe that the i-ching and the yin yang theory about life and nature is immutable. I went searching for my soul and and lead me to bagua. I want to be able to do more than fight. Much more. Fighting is an afterthought to me.

I want to seek myself. Control and strengthen my body. Calm and focus my mind. Regain my soul.
Bagua is built on my philosophical principles (views) on life.

I did not seek ba gua, it sought me.

"Deep down inside of all of us is the power to accomplish what we want to, if we'll just stop looking elsewhere."

[Dave C.]

Mike Patterson got this idea from his training here in Taiwan. I was surprised when I first got here too. The Taiwanese (and I'd assume the Chinese) use the words "wai" and "nei" to mean external and internal in a different context. A foreigner is a "waiguoren" for example (literally a foreign country person). Don't forget that the Chinese tend to view things from the "Middle Kingdom" perspective. There are the things from inside the country (nei) and then everything else (wai).

IMO just because a style has some qigong components to it doesn't mean it's an internal system. An internal system is based on the principals of relaxation, structure over muscle. rooting, etc. The things that we usually associate with bagua, taiji, xingyi, etc.

From this basis I would say that styles like taekwondo and shotokan are absolutely excluded. I don't think they could ever be done in an internal fashion. Their framework is totally different.

With the mostly external styles of CMA is gets tricky. Things like white crane and choylifut are structurally different from shotokan, etc. I see these styles as "inbetween" and they could go either way. They could come internal especially if the practicioner is exposed to a good style of taiji, bagua, etc.

For instance, my choylifut teacher got a lot more internal after he started working with a friend of his that does bagua and chen style. He added structure and a lot of relaxation to his choylifut and now it is approaching what I would call an internal style. He also taught his friend some forms. What the bagua guy did was purely internal even though the moves were choylifut. In fact it looked alot more like chen style or bagua. Remember with the inbetween styles like this it's not the moves themselves but the practicioner doing them and how they're done that's important.

[Brad]

I find it's best not to worry about all this internal/external stuff in the beginning. I have a hard enough time keeping my shoulders relaxed and breathing correctly. I think once you have the mechanics/breathing down everything else should fall into place. I think a lot of people get into the "internal" arts for philosophical insight and enlightenment then don't want to do the physical work. Even though Taiji is slow and relaxing, you should still be dripping with sweat at the end of a training session.

[cha kuen]

Regardless if the style is internal or external, the internal ASPECTS is the high level. I see internal aspects as having your breathing and chi come from the tan tien, Ging (fajing) and so on.

Sensitivity is also high level.

[8stepsifu]

they start out in different ways, but meet at the higher levels. Internal and external schools refer to the methods people use to get there. I do mantis and already it is internal for me. The fact that I learned tai chi alonside the mantis helps me understand the greater picture of kung fu because I am burning the candle at both ends.

There are very very soft mantis movements and mantis chi kung, and hard external tai chi movements. Typically lots and lots of stancework is done in tai chi before you get to the fighting. I have gotten to the applications of both, but that is still different from the fighting.

Internal arts came from both china and india. My Sifu also said that there really isn't such a thing as an internal and external art, its just a way people classify things

don't worry be happy

[Repulsive Monkey]

I'd just like to stir things a little, but a few comments back soneone mentioned how all martial arts at their peak are internal. I would like to warn people about taking this comment to close to heart as is it most certainly inncorrect. If all arts at their peak were internal, why is it during the 50's Wang Shu jin went to Japan and met up with Karate 8th Dan black Belts (I take it 8th dan is very close to the peak of Karate is it not?)and found their arts too stocky and ineffective? He dismissed External arts because from a health and martial art point of view they were impermanent and not enough to get one's development of Qi initiated. External arts (not all of course, co's that would be generalising wouldn't folks!!!) seem to do very little in preserving internal energetic health. Things like Karate do precious little for opening up meridians to enable Jin to develop for fighting and unblocking to cultivate for health. As Cheng Man-ching quotes"...hardness of the body is likend to the state the body goes into at the point of death (rigimortus), where as cultivating the body to open and be relaxed is the state a vibrant and yielding plant is in when it is strong and healthy..". There most certainly is a difference in extarnal and internal arts, and I am not the person to emphatically be the flag bearer for any side (although I do practice the internal), but just to remind people that there is a difference. A BIG difference!.

[count]

You make a good arguments and your points are well taken. I have only practiced kung fu, some "external" and lot's of "internal" and even "external" kung fu emphasizes relaxed striking and internal energy like chan su jin and fa jing etc. So I am certainly not an authority on all martial arts. But I think, even in Karate styles training methods, there is stretching, breathing and meditation exercises which do promote internal energy flow and are similar to ones found in internal kung fu, yoga, aikido, and other internal health practices. I have always (forgive my elitist attitude) felt that Karate is only rudimentary kung fu that over emphasizes power striking and overlooks the subtle circles and curves of Kung fu. But I still feel once mastered, there is a fair amount of internal characteristics to it. To be able to hit or be hit requires a fair amount of internal development. Breath, tension and relaxation, focus, alignment, cardiovascular development, balance and coordination, and these are just the ones that can be seen on the surface. Having not practiced karate I really can not say for certain, but it seems to me, everyone has chi and can develop it's flow by doing the exercises that focus on breath, tension/relaxation, proper alignment of the meridian's, and using the imagination to move it. Even people who do not practice martial arts of any kind have a fair chance of developing internal health, strength, longevity, and balance through normal day to day activity. I think in order to resolve this debate we must first define what is internal power. For me, it is the ability to align your entire body and coordinate relaxation and tension to deliver maximum power with minimum effort. The ability to receive a blow and distribute it to minimize the impact. And to be able to quickly recover and focus after your energy is disrupted by the blow. Maybe after many more years of practice, when I am old(er), I will appreciate the good I have done for my organs and glands, my skeleton and nervous system, and whatever the power is that keeps these things functioning. For now it's more about learning to fight and defend myself, building strength and cultivating energy, and increasing my odds of having a long and accomplished life. I think these are the goals of all styles of martial arts. To re-coin the phrase, there are many paths up the mountain, it does not matter if you are the horse pulling the cart or the cart, you both get there at about the same time.

fi

[Destrous9]

"To be able to hit or be hit requires a fair amount of internal development. Breath, tension and relaxation, focus, alignment, cardiovascular development, balance and coordination, and these are just the ones that can be seen on the surface."

Help a new student out. Is there anything more to the Internal arts than this? It seems to me all MA styles can be internalized by the student, if the student so desires.

Are there greater issues to internal training than the items Count pointed out? I am still trying to learn , so help me out a bit.

How about such aspects like:

1) Martial morality, and the philosophical view on life. Does this not affect the overall health and indirectly, Qi development?
2) Whole body health, and the interplay between mind, body and soul. Does whole body health not affect Qi development?

"There are 4 (Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, Liu He Ba Fa) generally known styles which emphasize Qi development more seriously than other styles, and are therefore considered Internal."--Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming

What about the concept of the unification of Heaven and Man? Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming states: "In order to achieve this goal of unification, you must understand the natural rules (Dao), and then modify your thinking, lifestyle, and activities in accordance with them. When you practice martial arts or QiGong, you must look for a place where the air is fresh. The food you eat must be nutritious. The time you practice must not upset natural Qi circulation. For example, practicing hard Qigong at noontime can make your body too Yang, and harm it. Only those who investigate the natural Dao and ponder carefully can bring about a harmonious unification between Heaven and Man."

Baguazhang Master Cheng Ting-Hua believed that "Those absorbing the freshness of the Heaven can be keen and those obtaining the spirit of the Earth can be clever. If one obtains both, then it is the spiritual achievement of Gong (i.e. Gongfu)." The implication is that natural Qi always influences your thinking and behavior. If Qi influences your thoughts and behaviors, and your thoughts and behaviors are not 'in tune' with the natural way, what does that say about your Qi, and your martial art? If your relationships with friends and family are horrible, is your Qi not in a weak state? ...)there are so many more real life examples...self-respect, respect for nature and life...etc).

Are there not greater issues and aspects to the Internal arts than mere breath control? Do not all aspects in life affect health and Qi development? Is not health and a unification with nature an important aspect to the proper development of Qi? Or in modern terms, does Qi hold a narrower definition? Is Qi just a tool for a martial art? ...or do Internal arts focus on much more deeply profound ideals than simply developing Qi so the art functions more efficiently? Do not all aspects of your life affect your Internal art?

Just throwing out a few thoughts here, and trying to learn from the experienced. Please remember that the above issues are meant for me to learn from, and not meant to say "I know".

"Deep down inside of all of us is the power to accomplish what we want to, if we'll just stop looking elsewhere."
Internal Arts Message Board (http://pub41.ezboard.com/bpencaksilat)

[This message was edited by Destrous9 on 04-22-01 at 12:25 PM.]

[Repulsive Monkey]

For internal cultivation there is no place what so ever for tension, this seeks only to reverse or impede Qi development. Internal martial arts are those which use Qi to improve health, apply martial techniques and develop an attunement to peoples Qi and then beyond that to even subtler aspects. I have never encountered (and I am very limited in my experiences so far!) external arts which deal in detail of cultivating listening,sticking,folding,rebound, following energies (and all the others) before and therefore feel that these things are particular (but not entirely exclusive) to internal arts. If you use tension to strike someone your art is external (or your internal art is ropey), if you can strike someone with earth force coming up through your body thn I would hazard the guess that your art is definetly internal. There is a difference. By the way to the comment about any student can make their art internal is erronneous. Internalisiation isn't just a matter of thinking how can I soften my punches but make them more efficient. Not by a long shot. You definitely need someone more experince to give you correct teaching or you spend your wholoe life kidding yourself you've got it

[count]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have never encountered (and I am very limited in my experiences so far!) external arts which deal in detail of cultivating listening, sticking, folding, rebound, following energies (and all the others) [/quote]
Have you ever seen wrestling? What energies does wrestling follow if not these? Is wrestling an internal art or an external one?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>For internal cultivation there is no place what so ever for tension, this seeks only to reverse or impede Qi development. [/quote]
A proper balance of tension and relaxation is nescessary in Chi Kung and in kung fu. Like a string on a guitar, if it is too loose it will be flat, too tight is will be sharp. How can you can hit someone with no tension whatsoever? It is like being hit with a limp noodle! In chi kung I have been taught and in bagua there is a constant flex and relax taking place. This does make chi flow stronger! I would be interested to learn which methods of chi kung do not follow this principle?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Internalisiation isn't just a matter of thinking how can I soften my punches but make them more efficient. Not by a long shot. You definitely need someone more experince to give you correct teaching or you spend your wholoe life kidding yourself you've got it
[/quote]

I agree with this statement. I'm not sure who it is directed at. I can find no statements here that imply striking is about being soft at all except for yours which states "If you use tension to strike someone your art is external". What am I missing here? Why would any fighter want to hit someone soft?

Enlightenment is not limited to those who seek it. Chi is not reserved for people who practice the so called "internal" arts. If a person learning any martial art does not internalize it at some point, it will not work. So I agree with Destrous that any MA student not only can but must internalize their style.e

[Repulsive Monkey]

Point a)


Wrestling does NOT use Tung JIn i.e. listening force where one listens to the quality of your opponents Qi. I guarantee that they certain do not use anything like Zhe De Jin i.e. folfing force either where they absorb their partners Qi then activate their Dantien's to U-bend it back out again all without tensing their muscles. I don't wish to be rude or harsh but again I will be honest and say that I have limits to my understanding and that is why I looked upon your response with interest and genuine adventure and not with rebuke.

Point b)

Maybe in Kung-fu, but in the 3 internal arts the need to relax at all times (and correctly NOT as I concur with you, like a wet noodle), is the only way to alloow earth force to arise and give someone the defensive Peng Jin needed, which coincidentally is the one force any internalist should develop before all others as it is a foundationa force which manifests in all others. Tension mixed in with it will have some effect, yes, and NO I am not suggesting that attacks should resemble wet noodles, what effect would that have?? apart making some laugh!. Internal arts attack by issuing Qi through the limbs which, if the alignment is correct, will act as a funnel to transport Qi explosively i.e. through Fa-Jing. Limbs are not tensed up at the point of contact or anything but all I can describe it as is "Dynamically relaxed". This means devoid of tension yet actively open (i.e. channels), as opposed to wet noodle syndrome which is devoid of tension and limply closed (i.e. channels closed).

Point c)

Again I re-iterate, internally speaking one does NOT strike with tension in order to attack, one strikes through issuing Qi into an opponent. In order to learn this properly it is easier if you have the guidance of an experienced teacher. One could internalise one's , say, Karate I suppose, but it would then cease to be Karate in the manner in which it is traditionally recognised.

Enlightenment is rarely found by accident if at all, but again is not necessarily granted to all seekers, but usually manifests to those who have been guided correctly too it.