what do you think of this set ?

[golden arhat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7YRvrB0gHA
now sure the head movement is exaggerated
but if u changed that who else thinks this set is just as good if not better than most ????

[mantis108]

Unfortunately, this is yet another example of modern Wushu BS. I have a friend who does traditional Fanzi from Beijing with a verifiable lineage. It's nothing like this carp.

Being fast or moving fast in Fanzi isn't about frailing around like a mad person. This is just a dance and an insult to the traditional stuff.

Mantis108

[mantis108]

This would be more like the traditional styles (not the same but ...) that I am talking about:

Chuo Jiao Fanzi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhokI_lJ9xY&mode=related&search=)

Mantis108

[PangQuan]

how many of her strikes do you think would bounce off you?

im betting most if not all

[Shaolinlueb]

she was a championship fanzi boxer for modern wushu. as for it resembling traditional i have never seen traditional fanzi, most of them dont represent it. even the mantis ;). er the long fist used to a bit.

edit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vkf04dnaLvE does this resembel the real toad kung fu?

[PangQuan]

This would be more like the traditional styles (not the same but ...) that I am talking about:

Chuo Jiao Fanzi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhokI_lJ9xY&mode=related&search=)

Mantis108

nice, i like i like :D

[golden arhat]

This would be more like the traditional styles (not the same but ...) that I am talking about:

Chuo Jiao Fanzi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhokI_lJ9xY&mode=related&search=)

Mantis108

thats got a bit of a wushu thing goin on there
even a break dance step or 2

have u seen the 4 or 5 long chuo jiao vids i posted on the sticky
INSANE! lol
take a look
as for the girl u gotta admire her speed no and i saw some legitamate strikes in there aswell
done slower and without the whole head whipping thing
what then ?

[mantis108]

I am sorry, Wushu Champion means d!ck all to me. Anybody can be a wushu champion as long as he or she has a good report with the judges panel or well connected in the community. The thing with this so called Fanzi boxing "champion" is that if you take away her supposed speed and agility, which is not that great or impressive either, she has nothing left in her form. Nothing in her form, especially the way she does it, can translate into real technique let alone allowing her do fajing and strike properly.

Wushu Champion, a dime a dozen, big freak'n deal. (sorry if I offended anyone but that's just the honest truth).

Mantis108

[Ravenshaw]

In what sense do you mean that this set is "better than most?" Where is this value judgment coming from?

[golden arhat]

speed wise intent wise

i see a whole load of forms (southern sets especcially) where performeers just go through the motions and never really put anything that i coulod see working in there

[mantis108]

thats got a bit of a wushu thing goin on there
even a break dance step or 2

have u seen the 4 or 5 long chuo jiao vids i posted on the sticky
INSANE! lol
take a look
as for the girl u gotta admire her speed no and i saw some legitamate strikes in there aswell
done slower and without the whole head whipping thing
what then ?

Well, if you feel subjectively positive about wushu BS is going to help to attain high level of CMA, by all means it's your right.

As for break dancing move, I suppose you are talking about the 0.08 s into the clip. But check out this 8 years old kid doing MMA. Look at how he does the same kick from the ground as he pops up from a defensive ground position.


8 Years only MMA clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP_HlNGfcR4)

The kid might not be a fast as the Fanzi champion but I would put my house on the kid that he would mop the floor with the lady in a fight any day.

At the end of the day, don't get all hype up by the modern Wushu champion bu ll Sh!t. My take is keep things real.

Regards

Mantis108

[Shaolinlueb]

Well, if you feel subjectively positive about wushu BS is going to help to attain high level of CMA, by all means it's your right.

As for break dancing move, I suppose you are talking about the 0.08 s into the clip. But check out this 8 years old kid doing MMA. Look at how he does the same kick from the ground as he pops up from a defensive ground position.


8 Years only MMA clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP_HlNGfcR4)

The kid might not be a fast as the Fanzi champion but I would put my house on the kid that he would mop the floor with the lady in a fight any day.

At the end of the day, don't get all hype up by the modern Wushu champion bu ll Sh!t. My take is keep things real.

Regards

Mantis108

8 yr old vs fanzi champ. lets see it.

[Ravenshaw]

speed wise intent wise

So it's the performance you're referring to rather than the choreography? Fair enough. I'd agree that her performance is very good. What's the purpose of pointing that out?

[YouKnowWho]

The value of the forms is for "teaching" and "learning" only, it's not for "practicing" and "pleasing the judges and audience".

[Chan Da-Wei]

I have seen a lot of contemporary wushu and each time I see it, I appreciate it for what it is. Gymnastics with just a hint of martial like movements and postures. I note that the martial-moves seem to reduce each year. I always admire their athleticism, agility and co-ordination. Has pretty much nothing in common with my Kung Fu however.

I was at the Wong Fei Hong/ Yim Man memorial in Fatsan in January and noticed they now have a lion dance and martial art demonstration. Being a Hung Gar guy, I was dead keen to see some Gung Gi, Fu Hok etc.

Disappointed is an understatement. These guys busted out some modern wushu form, akin to this woman's demo. Heck, their wushu was not even that good. We'd just come from Tianjin Chin Woo and seen some absolutely amazing Wushu.

Of all places to see modern wushu, the Wong Fei Hong memorial museum.

Disappointed, my sifu, sibak and I approached the guys after they had finished to see if they actually knew any Hung Gar. None whatsoever. Told us that the visitors don't appreciate it as much as modern wushu. Hang on....most visitors know who WFH was, are probably there cause of the WFH connection and that he was a Hung Gar master....would they not want to see Hung Gar instead of modern wushu.

I am still livered at this however there is a happy ending to this tale. Turns out that their Si Hing did know some Hung Gar stuff and he was nice enough to come out of the 'office' and demo for us. He was pretty sharp too.

[firepalm]

8 Years only MMA clip

The kid might not be a fast as the Fanzi champion but I would put my house on the kid that he would mop the floor with the lady in a fight any day.

At the end of the day, don't get all hype up by the modern Wushu champion bu ll Sh!t. My take is keep things real.

Conversely I would bet my house that the kid could probably take on your average coffee shop smack talking trad. kung fu master.

Difference the girl doesn't make any claims of being able to fight, she's a wushu athlete trained for performance / sport wushu.

Keep it real indeed! :eek:

[mantis108]

Conversely I would bet my house that the kid could probably take on your average coffee shop smack talking trad. kung fu master.

Difference the girl doesn't make any claims of being able to fight, she's a wushu athlete trained for performance / sport wushu.

Keep it real indeed! :eek:

Fair enough and be that as it may, there is one huge difference.

The kid represent MMA as the clip claims and he did what most people understood as descent representation with relatively great MMA skill set.

While this lady makes no claims, since there is no narrative of any kind, we all understood this is a modern wushu tournament. Modern wushu by default is the representation of CMA because the PROC said so! The world (mostly those who don't take CMA) equates CMA with modern wushu. Read a few reply back of the experience of the Hung Gar person who saw modern wushu in a traditional HG! Everyone is rushing to includ silly BS into traditional style nowadays. The lady needs not to make any claim. She is by default deemed as a bench mark of CMA! But is what she did really a bench mark of CMA and most importantly TCMA style such Fanziquan? Absolutely NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you really believe that is not important? Do you realized that Fanziquan was one of the styles used to train the Ming dynasty army that defeated the Japanese pirate invasation? This is recorded in military manuscripts. It is real history. Can you imagine the army doing this modern wushu crazy Shiat!? Not even the PROC army corp would do this! If we are TCMA practitioners and we are proud of the fact that we practice Wude (martial virtues), which inclues honoring and respecting of our true heritage, you would want to acknowledge the modern wushu fantasy carp altering and discrediting a real Kung Fu style such as Fanziquan? Think of all those who dedicated their lives to defend and uphold the honor and grace of China (cultural identity included) in the past. A man without understanding and honoring the past has no future. Simply put, there is no dignity in being a "modern wushu champion" such as she at all! The stars of moder wushu would soon be "media w h o r e" once 2008 Olympics is held in Beijing. I am sorry I would have to wonder if you are at all a TCMA practitioner with the well being of TCMA at heart?!

If you understood all these, weighted the situation and you feel fine or see nothing wrong with that, then we obviously don't share the same moral values. We will just have to agree to disagree. But please understand that I don't mean any of my posts to be disrepectful to anyone. I just hate modern wushu with passion that's all (within reason of course).

Anyway, I can only hope to keep fighting for TCMA and keep educating people about the difference. I know it's a ever losing battle with the modern wushu crap but I am going do it for as long as I can because it is a cause worth fighting for.

Regards

Mantis108

[golden arhat]

Fair enough and be that as it may, there is one huge difference.

The kid represent MMA as the clip claims and he did what most people understood as descent representation with relatively great MMA skill set.

While this lady makes no claims, since there is no narrative of any kind, we all understood this is a modern wushu tournament. Modern wushu by default is the representation of CMA because the PROC said so! The world (mostly those who don't take CMA) equates CMA with modern wushu. Read a few reply back of the experience of the Hung Gar person who saw modern wushu in a traditional HG! Everyone is rushing to includ silly BS into traditional style nowadays. The lady needs not to make any claim. She is by default deemed as a bench mark of CMA! But is what she did really a bench mark of CMA and most importantly TCMA style such Fanziquan? Absolutely NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you really believe that is not important? Do you realized that Fanziquan was one of the styles used to train the Ming dynasty army that defeated the Japanese pirate invasation? This is recorded in military manuscripts. It is real history. Can you imagine the army doing this modern wushu crazy Shiat!? Not even the PROC army corp would do this! If we are TCMA practitioners and we are proud of the fact that we practice Wude (martial virtues), which inclues honoring and respecting of our true heritage, you would want to acknowledge the modern wushu fantasy carp altering and discrediting a real Kung Fu style such as Fanziquan? Think of all those who dedicated their lives to defend and uphold the honor and grace of China (cultural identity included) in the past. A man without understanding and honoring the past has no future. Simply put, there is no dignity in being a "modern wushu champion" such as she at all! The stars of moder wushu would soon be "media w h o r e" once 2008 Olympics is held in Beijing. I am sorry I would have to wonder if you are at all a TCMA practitioner with the well being of TCMA at heart?!

If you understood all these, weighted the situation and you feel fine or see nothing wrong with that, then we obviously don't share the same moral values. We will just have to agree to disagree. But please understand that I don't mean any of my posts to be disrepectful to anyone. I just hate modern wushu with passion that's all (within reason of course).

Anyway, I can only hope to keep fighting for TCMA and keep educating people about the difference. I know it's a ever losing battle with the modern wushu crap but I am going do it for as long as I can because it is a cause worth fighting for.

Regards

Mantis108

a punch is a punch no ? and a kick is a kick so surely wushu must have some value (look at old school nan quan and in alot of places u can see how it applies)

if they labeled this better and made it clear that it is nothing more than a sport ?
(btw i also find badminton helps my training reflexes etc)
what then ?

can u admire the speed the athletisicsm


wushu is not some evil force

[PangQuan]

Difference the girl doesn't make any claims of being able to fight, she's a wushu athlete trained for performance / sport wushu.


it seems that she doesnt have to make claims.

even people involved with kungfu thinks she can fight with that....

thats where a major problem is, let alone the mainstream public linking modern wushu to actual martial competency, now we have people who are involved in CMA thinking that this modern wushu stuff is actually a good base for fighting.

its like thinking a kabuki actor is a fighter because they wield weapons in thier performances.....it may look like hes a scary warrior but hes not...hes just pretending, much like alot of todays modern wushu.

dont get me wrong, i know alot of modern wushu peeps have trad. bg's and understand actually fighting concepts and where the line between modernwushu and real martial arts is....but this is not going to be the norm for very long...sadly

[Shaolinlueb]

the clip of the fanzi women was from the early to mid 80's. i have it on my hard drive with narration.

the women is chu fengliang, she is master level athelete and champion of fanzi boxing 5 times running.

i like wushu for what it is. i know a couple former top athletes rom china and they are very good at kung fu. not just modern wushu. i see these wushu people work harder then most of the traditional people i see.

i love traditional kung fu more dont get me wrong. ;)

[PangQuan]

if they labeled this better and made it clear that it is nothing more than a sport ?
(btw i also find badminton helps my training reflexes etc)
what then ?



sure badminton will help your reflexes, but there are actual marial arts exersizes that can help you with this as well as build structure and martially aquainted focus as well as mechanics.


so you could play bad minton or train martial arts. which do you think will help you fight better/

[golden arhat]

of course i do both and i know what works

but i was just pointing out the value of seemingly unrelated sports like badminton
surely wushu also has value then

[firepalm]

While I may not agree with your opinions, I understand your passion. I too love TCMA but do not take the same view as yourself in terms of Modern Wushu. Modern Wushu is not a whole representation of CMA merely a portion of it and a fairly small one at that.

Where I believe the traditional mind set such as yourself are wrong is to point to the Modern Wushu community and claim that is solely making them look bad. As I see it CMA is an umbrella term referring to all the aspects of itself including the Traditional Styles, Internal Styles, San Shou & Modern Wushu. And Modern Wushu is really only a small portion of that, the vast majority is still the Traditional Chinese Martial Arts. But when I hear so many traditional CMA proponents moan about how Modern Wushu is a dancing art with no practical this & that and making them (the TCMA community) look bad, I ask how many of them actually go out and prove what TCMA can do? If the TCMA is such a valid fighting art then why aren't they out there proving it to the world? Here in Vancouver we have a lot of good traditional Sifu but truth is we have even more substandard Sifu who do no more then run 'forms' schools. In my opinion these guys are doing more of a disservice to the TCMA community then any Modern Wushu player by perpetuating substandard CMA and passing it off as a valid fighting art.

Someone such as the woman shown doing the Fantsi, while it may not be to your liking, has trained countless hours and definitely trained much harder then your average Chinatown Kung Fu player. Now she has not trained application because she is a member of a professional team that is trained specifically for an artistic sport based on CMA but within the context of her sport she would be considered highly skilled. I won't try to validate what she, or any other Modern Wushu person, does in terms of a fighting art because there's no need it's a sport an artistic expression if you will of one aspect of CMA.

And why is it more TCMA proponents don't actually get out there and prove what they can do? Some have ventured into San Shou, and oddly when that happens a lot of TCMA persons will start again pointed fingers and saying oh that's not 'Kung Fu'! I honestly believe because the vast majority can't (don't get me wrong there are definitely some that are highly skilled). In my opinion many Chinatown Kung Fu types would get their heads handed to them by your average boxer or MMA practitioner.

All of that being said I truly believe TCMA has a lot to offer and to me not just as a fighting art but in terms of a cultural heritage. The TCMA proponents, such as yourself, if they are so worried about the damage Modern Wushu is doing should be out there showing it's true value of TCMA.

My two cents ;)

[firepalm]

It looks good but does it have any combat value?

In all probability no. So? Modern Wushu is a performance sport, everything is not measured purely by combat application within the confines of the sport.

Conversly there are probabely a lot of moves done within many traditional styles that you & I could argue the combat validity of for hours. Most all TCMA is very lacking in the area of ground fighting. Does this invalidate TCMA? Of course not and conversely your statement does not invalidate a sport version of CMA simply because it does currently do a 'jump outside crescent kick' in a manner that you consider inpractical.

Again just my opinion :D

[PangQuan]

of course i do both and i know what works

but i was just pointing out the value of seemingly unrelated sports like badminton
surely wushu also has value then

modern wushu definately has value. many of the training exersizes are the same as of old.

i myself practiced modern wushu for several years, i just got to a point when i would much rather be doing something else with my training time than modern sets.

it felt like a waste of time to me.

i would be there practicing my comp. long fist or something similar and just kinda looking at the heavy bag. near drooling actually. i realized i was wasting my time and not working towards my actual goals.

jean claud van damme (sp) started with bellet, sure it helped him out, but what if he had started with Muay thai instead?

but what it all comes down to is love. what do you love to do? if you dont love to fight, why bother trying? if you love the explosive and dynamic, electric feel of practicing a very intense modern wushu set...well thats what you should focus on.

to me....love is the answer.

[mantis108]

a punch is a punch no ? and a kick is a kick so surely wushu must have some value (look at old school nan quan and in alot of places u can see how it applies)

Interesting that you would mention that "a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick". However, this quote (originally from the words of Bruce Lee I believe) is taken out of context IMHO. This is a quote that is paraphasing a Ch'an Buddhist statement. It applies to the beginning of a journey into spiritual pursuit process. What about the following part a punch is not a punch, and a punch is still a punch? The moral is we can not take things out of the context which is what modern wushu as a whole is about - taking things out of context all the time to fit where it wants to be. This also relates to what I pointed out. The lady clearly have not a clue about the fundamentals and principles of Fanzi the way she did it. Honestly if she does, she properly would lose. Judging from the way that she is doing it, she will never understand those and yes, she will always be at the level of punch is a punch and a kick is a kick (sloppy at best) despites of the medals she won. True Kung Fu is not in the winning. The ability to understand losing is kung fu 101.


if they labeled this better and made it clear that it is nothing more than a sport ?

You know no gymnist ever complains about a floor routine not being traditional or whatever because it is not within gymnastic's culture to have a floor routine specifical designed or dedicated to the ancestors of the "sport". They only focus on the technical components which is pretty universal in their sport. Now if wushu create it's own floor routine and all without riding the tail coats of true Kung Fu systems and quit altering traditional fundamentals and principles at will, there shouldn't be a problem at all. We won't be having this conversation. It is these opportunistic behaviors of modern wushu as a "sport" that I am mostly aganist.



(btw i also find badminton helps my training reflexes etc)
what then ?

can u admire the speed the athletisicsm

Allow me to be blunt... if admiration of athleticism is the inspiration or why you are in martial arts, then I am afraid you might be doing it for the wrong reason and your attainment will be limited.


wushu is not some evil force

modern wushu is the malicious intent of the PROC (particularly Chairman Mao) of fragmentation by sportification of martial academia that sees TCMA splitted into 2 divisions - modern wushu and San Shou (the sport that wasn't meant to be for civilian in the first place). When the ROC promoted TCMA as Guo Shu (National Arts), it's one identity (of form and fighting) not 2 bas tardized halves. Yes, wushu is evil period. Don't be fooled by it. :cool:

BTW, check out this clip of praying mantis.

Praying mantis in practice (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAjb266Ocfk)

There is all that's is about to convey a fighting style without all those crazy swinging and posturing a la modern wushu. A farce like modern wushu is still just a farce.

Regards

Mantis108

[Sifu Darkfist]

If you look at the vid posted by Mantis 108 at about 10 seconds he comes up off the ground with a nice kick that reminds me of a mantis kick.
Good leg power

[golden arhat]

modern wushu definately has value. many of the training exersizes are the same as of old.

i myself practiced modern wushu for several years, i just got to a point when i would much rather be doing something else with my training time than modern sets.

it felt like a waste of time to me.

i would be there practicing my comp. long fist or something similar and just kinda looking at the heavy bag. near drooling actually. i realized i was wasting my time and not working towards my actual goals.

jean claud van damme (sp) started with bellet, sure it helped him out, but what if he had started with Muay thai instead?

but what it all comes down to is love. what do you love to do? if you dont love to fight, why bother trying? if you love the explosive and dynamic, electric feel of practicing a very intense modern wushu set...well thats what you should focus on.

to me....love is the answer.


i love both
i love valetudo a whole lot more
but at the same time i love wushu
i find it enhances my practise and my life in all areas (well except when it comes to relationships :P LOL)


when i fight i do well
and if you watch alot of the time you will see me incorporate wushu into my fighting (e.g the wushu sidekick)

i dont subscribe to mantis 108's view of wushu as EVIL
it is a sport and it helps alot of ppl

[PangQuan]

i love both
i love valetudo a whole lot more
but at the same time i love wushu
i find it enhances my practise and my life in all areas (well except when it comes to relationships :P LOL)

then your doing exactly what you should be. i also love the sidekick

[mantis108]

While I may not agree with your opinions, I understand your passion. I too love TCMA but do not take the same view as yourself in terms of Modern Wushu. Modern Wushu is not a whole representation of CMA merely a portion of it and a fairly small one at that.

Thank you for the undertanding. Well, I may be too negative about modern wushu. But I just called it as I see it. So...


Where I believe the traditional mind set such as yourself are wrong is to point to the Modern Wushu community and claim that is solely making them look bad. As I see it CMA is an umbrella term referring to all the aspects of itself including the Traditional Styles, Internal Styles, San Shou & Modern Wushu. And Modern Wushu is really only a small portion of that, the vast majority is still the Traditional Chinese Martial Arts. But when I hear so many traditional CMA proponents moan about how Modern Wushu is a dancing art with no practical this & that and making them (the TCMA community) look bad, I ask how many of them actually go out and prove what TCMA can do? If the TCMA is such a valid fighting art then why aren't they out there proving it to the world? Here in Vancouver we have a lot of good traditional Sifu but truth is we have even more substandard Sifu who do no more then run 'forms' schools. In my opinion these guys are doing more of a disservice to the TCMA community then any Modern Wushu player by perpetuating substandard CMA and passing it off as a valid fighting art.

Well, I hear you. I don't blame modern wushu for the demise of traditional Kung Fu. You are right that traditional Kung Fu is largely responsible for the situation itself.


Someone such as the woman shown doing the Fantsi, while it may not be to your liking, has trained countless hours and definitely trained much harder then your average Chinatown Kung Fu player. Now she has not trained application because she is a member of a professional team that is trained specifically for an artistic sport based on CMA but within the context of her sport she would be considered highly skilled. I won't try to validate what she, or any other Modern Wushu person, does in terms of a fighting art because there's no need it's a sport an artistic expression if you will of one aspect of CMA.

Please understand that it is not a subjective like or dislike of her performance. It is with certain understanding of the Fanzi quan fundamentals and principles that I critiqued her performance. It's an objective process. The training of Fanziquan as I have compared notes with my Fanzi friend is remarkably similar to praying mantis. We were both amazed by the fact that he trained in Beijing and I training in Hong Kong from 2 very different styles being far apart but shared so much commonality in Kung Fu approach. Traditional arts are of one heart beat regardless of styles (essentially, there is no such a thing as external or internal styles IMHO).


And why is it more TCMA proponents don't actually get out there and prove what they can do? Some have ventured into San Shou, and oddly when that happens a lot of TCMA persons will start again pointed fingers and saying oh that's not 'Kung Fu'! I honestly believe because the vast majority can't (don't get me wrong there are definitely some that are highly skilled). In my opinion many Chinatown Kung Fu types would get their heads handed to them by your average boxer or MMA practitioner.

Personally, I like MMA formats such as Pride or UFC for TCMA to test the skill. I believe San Shou is too limited for TCMA but it's better than nothing. If Kung Fu people don't take Kung Fu seriously, what can we say? Many Chinese parents want their kids to have the opportunity to do all things Chinese which of course includes Kung Fu. They don't intend for them to actually learn fighting. The Sifus usually take these kids on without seriously discussing it through with all parties involved. As for fight training, the problem is that a lot of old styles Sifus don't understand there is a lot of commonality between MMA and Kung Fu fight training methodologies. We can definitely "cross train" in MMA methodology (ie the inclusion of ground fighting).


All of that being said I truly believe TCMA has a lot to offer and to me not just as a fighting art but in terms of a cultural heritage. The TCMA proponents, such as yourself, if they are so worried about the damage Modern Wushu is doing should be out there showing it's true value of TCMA.

Like I said I do what I can and as long as I can. Whether others see it or not, well that's their Karma. So be it.

Regards

Mantis108

[Ben Gash]

Golden Arhat says "a punch is a punch", but the real problem here is that those aren't punches!! How on earth can you talk about her intent when she so obviously has none? Her shots have no direction, no energy and no focus. As I always say to my students "the end position is less important than how you got there". Obviously, if you get there in the right fashion then your end position will be good, but you can get a perfect end position with an absolutley HORRIBLE movement (such as much of that first clip).
I must agree with Mantis 108, what is the purpose of describing this as Fantzi, which it clearly isn't? If they just had open floor competition and she wanted to incorporate some Fantzi elements, then fine, but why portray this as Fantzi?
It is true, there are many bad Kung Fu performers, but the big difference is that we will acknowledge it if they're bad, we won't zealously defend them just because they'e Kung Fu guys. We might make excuses for them (after all, Kung Fu competitions tend to be more inclusive and less elitist than Wushu ones), but we won't say they're great when they're obviously not.
Golden Arhat, there was no Wushu whatsoever in that Choujiao clip, you REALLY need to do some more research on traditional TCMA, and learn that there is a world of material every bit as exciting as Wushu, but much more interesting and far more functional.
Is Wushu evil? Few things are evil in and of themselves, but it has an insidious effect on CMA as a whole, and more importantly it has ripped the fighting heart from CMA, which for many of us is unforgiveable.

[JDK]

Good comments on both sides of the "isle":)
[
That little kid was great!!!!:eek:

His MMA was sick!:D I would be careful if that kid came at me!!!!!!;)

Wushu has it's place
Traditional MA has it's Place
MMA has it's Place....

IMHO

JDK

[David Jamieson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7YRvrB0gHA
now sure the head movement is exaggerated
but if u changed that who else thinks this set is just as good if not better than most ????

martially speaking it is utterly useless in my opinion. the intention is in all the wrong places.

[firepalm]

Few things are evil in and of themselves, but it has an insidious effect on CMA as a whole, and more importantly it has ripped the fighting heart from CMA, which for many of us is unforgiveable.

wow I did not know Wushu was so powerful as to rip the fighting heart out of CMA. That's funny! :D

[firepalm]

A little late but nonetheless for you know who

Almost all the modern wushu forms have a forward running followed by a jumping outside crescent kick in the air.

Sounds to me like the jump outside crescent kick which originally can be found in several traditional Northern styles like Cha Quan, Hua Quan, etc...


The direction and angle make no combat sense that futher prove that the Wushu forms designer didnot consider combat situation in the 1st place.

Guess you'll have to check with persons that do those traditional styles for verification on the intended purpose!

[David Jamieson]

the thing about strikes whether they're kicks or punches is to not telegraph them.

when you run in a big circle to get momentum for a kick, you are essentially dancing not practicing martiality. In the traditional versions of outside crescent junp kicks , tornado kicks etc etc, they are generally done from one move to the next or from a standing start so to speak and are not telegraphed.

they do tend to be finishing moves though, particularly for people that are longer in the tooth. :p

[PangQuan]

word.

the element of suprise via explosive drive is much more practicle then running in a circle pretending your a crane :rolleyes:

if you practice hard you can do a jumping outside crescent from any position pretty much.

[firepalm]

Classic Cha Quan routines you will notice both incorporate a run to the jump outside crescent kick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wH5CCqAtcgc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpWELFWecvM

My point is youknowwho's implies that this run approach to jump outside invalidates wushu and thus supports his claim, when in fact the move is derived from the traditional styles

[David Jamieson]

those sets are heavy on the wushu flavour as much as they are attempting to retain the traditional set.

for instance, in the origianl form in question, it is derived from a traditional set and the wushu flair is added.

In those sets, that you just posted, they are wushuized when compared to what is in the old manual wherein there isn't more than 2 or 3 quick shuffle steps to a large kick. The big circles are a dead giveaway to the wushuification of the style while the mixing and blending is used to retain some traditional flavour while still being able to get into competitions.

also, it is fair to mention that a lot of modern wushu was ripped directly from cha chuan so it is natural that this style is going to look most like that.

[B-Rad]

Does it matter? Can't say I've ever seen a traditionalist capable of using any of these jump kicks in a fight anyway (unless you count one or two of the monks as traditionalists). If anything, they're usually even slower, weaker, and more telegraphed (from standing even!) than the modern guys :p I've heard of a couple guys using it in sparring competition, and both of them were contemporary wushu athletes, and even then it was completely illegal (point sparring, lol).
Anyway, the use of a technique for performance that practically no one can use effectively anyway doesn't seem that big of a deal to me. Maybe many traditional styles are flawed to begin with, or had performance elements in their styles long before modern wushu existed :)

[Ravenshaw]

Maybe many traditional styles are flawed to begin with, or had performance elements in their styles long before modern wushu existed :)

Good point. There's a definite performance element to most traditional sets. Okay, so Wing Chun is ugly as sin, but it's an exception. You know what I hear the most from people who have seen me performing sets? They don't say "powerful" or "fierce" or anything even vaguely martial-sounding. The number one word I hear when they describe it is "graceful." I put a lot of fire into my sets, but the graceful movements are what grab them. It's a good way to get students, though. People want to learn to move like that.

I don't think there's a reason to be any more bothered by wushu than by traditional stylists who just do forms. I'm not sure that should be bothersome in the first place. People simply train for different reasons. And the richness of the art and having fun doing sets is just as valid a reason to practice as fighting.