scary Taiji school in UK

[Kaitain(UK)]

just thought I'd share an awful experience I had last weekend

background - as senior student at my club (due to lack of numbers more than ability tbh) I get frustrated at the lack of skilled pushing hands partners I can train with (Yang style). After reading a few pieces on Dan Doherty and his Wudang Taiji I thought I'd take a look at one of his affiliated clubs. What interested me was his supposition that all other styles of Taiji don't train Yang with Yin - i.e. that they are too soft.

note:this was with the blessing of my instructor, who understood my frustration - he felt it would be good to see how another taiji school trained.

After training the form for an hour and a half (which I had a nightmare learning because there was no way on earth I could lean my body forwards - stable in 8 directions my arse) the class had a break for 15 minutes. During this time I saw students of under 3 years training go through taiji sword, broadsword and staff forms. There was no understanding of waist movement, no balance, no sinking. My instructor started the taiji sword form after 7 years of training long form - what's the point of training a form designed to refine your long form if the long form is raw? 'nuff said

anyway

a few of them went and 'rolled' for 10 minutes - a fine thing to do if you train bjj or shoot fighting I should think. Hardly taiji though is it?

we then went on to 'free' form pushing hands. My god it was frightening. They put a 15 square foot mat down and announced it was 'winner stays on'. They then told me that there was no striking and no locking - I queried how one's taiji could benefit if you weren't using any techniques but was told that it was to avoid injury (go figure). Basically you win by knocking the other person out of the 'ring' or by knocking them over. A shoving match.

They then proceeded to wrestle. At one point they were leaning into each other like a pair of rams - then one guy reached down and tried to lift the other guy up by his leg. Another guy won a round by bodily lifting his opponent off his feet and dropping him outside the ring.

Yang? How the hell was that Yang? Every principle I've ever learned from the classics was broken - attritional contests of strength without technique was how I'd put it. Apparently these guys compete in pushing hands competitions.

Last night I went back to my beloved Yang style school and trained pushing hands for 15 minutes. This morning my chest and arms are yellow with bruises - yet there was no grunting or shouting, just the odd forced exhalation as a strike was delivered or abosrbed. I was thrown across the room a few times, once or twice I lost my footing - I lost count of the number of times I was locked out or thrown. Everything we used could be ascribed to the form and the 13 postures. Always I tried to be stable in the 8 gates.

I learned more in 15 minutes of pushing than I did in an hour and a half of 'proper' Yang.

I don't know if all wudang schools are like this one, I hope not. It was scary to see what some people define as taiji, how some people appear to read the classics yet learn nothing. taiji is not an external style, if I wanted to wrestle and use strength I would go to a style that knew that. All I saw at the weekend was a style that had taken elements from many external styles to shore up shortfalls in their taiji. Yet to read DD website he is dismissive of all other styles. I wonder why.

"one room, many keys"

[popsider]

Correct me if I'm wrong but your profile says you practice tai chi weapons yourself and that you have been training for only 2 years.

[Kaitain(UK)]

my profile:"Yang style for 2 years, prior to that over 10 years of Muay Thai, took a severe back injury, went to TJ for health benefits and then never looked back. Adore weapons of any style, especially nunchuku. Favourite method is 2 sets of nunchuku performing 8 point weave from Escrima."

don't see any mention of taiji weapons there - I'd love to learn them but what's the point when my form needs so much work?

I adore weapons of any style - but I just play around with them. A few seminars here and there. What I am criticising is that a school teaches 3 year and lower students weapons so early. I understand that the weapons train principles and techniques, but they will only be of value if the form is good.

"one room, many keys"

[dz]

Kaitain,

I'm sorry that the Wudang school you visited gave you such a bad image of Dan Docherty's teachings. I'm curious, which school was it and what's the name of the instructor(s)? Since DD has lots of students in several countries over Europe, there ought to be both good and bad apples everywhere.

About leaning, Dan Docherty's Tai Chi is strongly influenced by Wu (Ng) style and it's not as much of a leaning as it is a tilting. Correctly done, we keep a straight line from top of head, via spine down into the straight leg (in the bow stance). We do not lean our body weight past but on the front leg. Nothing strange, just a difference between styles. I can understand why Yang people keep their backs straight, both methods have their advantages.

The Tui Shou you experienced was one of the competition style pushing hands. For drilling and
training, we have drills such as single hand, four directions, reeling silk, Da Lu, etc. There's a huge difference between the competition and traditional pushing hands drills. Personally, I don't like competition pushing hands that much. But it's quite fun to do. I agree that competition Tui Shou is lots of muscles and little technique on a lower level.

As for the weapon forms; I was taught that we train with weapons because:

1. It teaches you to use everyday objects in a self defence situation.
2. Weapon forms are very good for training strength, stamina, coordination, balance, etc.
3. It's a part of the art.

One of the effects of weapons training is that it improves your hand form, though it's not the main goal. There are A LOT of waist movement and sinking in the sabre, spear and sword forms if correctly done.

The rolling part is nothing else than a conditioning exercise. Done correctly, it's also a falling technique. If someone throws me and I'm not able to counter, using a roll to break the fall isn't such a bad idea, is it? Why wouldn't that be Tai Chi?

I would like to recommend you to visit Dan himself, his school's address can be found on his website. I would be a shame if you trash his style just because you unfortunately found one of his lesser students.

Regards,
Wai.

[This message was edited by Wai on 05-02-01 at 05:06 AM.]

[silfversurfer]

Kaitain,

These are my personal view of things and as a student of sifu DD, i feel i have to reply on this one.

I think you should try to look up and train for sifu DD himself, there are good students and there are not-so-good students who are out there teaching...

concerning the leaning - i'm not going to get into an argument about that. from what i've seen people have already discussed this matter in and out at this forum. it's just one of the differences between the different tai chi styles.

why can't you train weapons before you've perfected your handform?
from what i've understood, the purpose of the weaponforms is not to make your handform better...it's just a result from the weapon training. the weapons have their own applications and qualities.
during the time you learn weapons, of course your form doesn't look that good. neither did the handform in the beginning, but you've got to start somewhere don't you?
what you discribe - forms without sinking and coiling-uncoiling of the waist-i agree it doesn't sound like a well performed form, but then again...maybe the people you saw just got started with the weapons?
i don't believe you have to wait a certain amount of years to start with the weapons, it's very individual. my point of view is that the weapon training (if you do it correct) will develop certain qualities and make you understand concepts wich in turn will make you a better tai chi practitioner, including the hand form.

the 'rolls' are a traditional 'kung' training method. it is very tough. of course it is tai chi, why wouldn't it be?
is it bad to have good stamina and a strong physical foundation to work from in tai chi?
for example if you want to go into the ring against hard stylists - which a number of tai chi people have done - i really think you need a certain amount of conditioning. it's one aspect of tai chi chuan, a very 'yang' one.

the pushing hands you describe sounds like 'moving step tou shou'.
competition pushing hands is quite different from the way tui shou usually is practiced.
tui shou is designed to develop the ability to listen 'ting', redirect 'hua' and discharge 'fa'. to practice these elements i think you have to work on, for example, relaxiation.
in competition you are limited by time,space and rules. it will not be very relaxed, it will be quite hard and rigid. if you do it freestyle for the purpose of competition it will not be like when two tai chi practitioners train & focus on the purpose of tui shou. good or bad?...well if you participate in a competition i guess you want to win. personally i don't think it is very good pushing hands though...

i'm sorry for your bad experience, but i suggest you deal with sifu DD directly.

Take Good Care.

[popsider]

Kaitlin, under styles you say you practice you have written:

"Yang Taiji (John Ding), various weapons (Nunchuku,Escrima,Taiji sword, 3 section-staff))"

;)

[dingo]

As someone who has studied at Dan Docherty's main class in Covent Garden (albeit only for a little while), I would just like to register my agreement with sliversurfer and wai: who was the instructor you visited? Not all of the instructors that teach his style are recommended by him any more, and so cannot be considered good representations of his style. As for your comments about the weapons: it's true, students in Dan's school do learn the weapons early, but I would disagree that you should wait a long time to learn them per se: there is no stage where your long form is 'done', where you can 'move on' to the weapons: it is a process of continual refinement. Lastly, with regard to the rolls, how are they any more external than the 'wall training' found in the schools of Yang Sau-chung's disciples?

Moving on to the shoving matches that you witnessed; they do seem to happen a lot because Dan gets people doing freestyle tuishou very early on (after a couple of classes), and it's up to people whether they want to 'win' or use taiji. Anyway, I didn't study his style for very long, but I would urge you to keep an open mind about him - it may just that his training methods are different to other taiji teachers. Phone him up and ask him what instructors he would recommend you visit: Ray White (who lives in Lewisham), Steve Wooster and Godfrey Dornelly are some of the people who took the Covent Garden class while I was there (although Godfrey is no longer on Dan's list of instructors for some reason)

[Daniel Madar]

I've actually been planning on visiting one of DD's school when I've been in the UK. I haven't had the chance yet though.

There is one question I was hoping someone could answer for me.

From what I read on said website, Dan learned Wu Jien Quan taiji, from the members of the family who headed south. Why is it that Dan then teaches "wu dang" taiji? There is a specific wu dang form of taiji after all, and Dan does not teach that one. Is there any particular reason he has chosen to break with his lineage and declare himself separate?

[Kaitain(UK)]

I guess my disappoinment came through a bit harshly - I really want to find high-level pushing hands/sparring partners, I got my hopes up when I was told that some of the students competed but I found them to be nothing but attritional brute force. I read about some ppl on here who have training partners of their own level or better - I have training partners from other styles but it's not the same.

I don't want to trash an individual school on a public forum (the school is listed on his website though) - I was also a bit hasty with my comments regarding DD as a whole - as you say, I should train with him before passing judgement.

I withdraw the blanket statements I made - they were poorly done. Let's just say I was extremely disappointed and disillusioned. It's been a valuable lesson for me though. A bit like the feeling when you understand that there is no secret formula to good taiji - it's just hard work and commitment and a good teacher.

with regards to my profile - I don't train taiji sword, I did a seminar and learned the form but found it wasn't helpful and was actually affecting my training. I spoke to my instructor and he explained that the weapons forms have a purpose beyond fighting with a weapon. He also quoted the 'taiji habits are easy to learn, almost impossible to break' - basically I wasn't proficient enough to learn correctly and that I would be damaging myself long term. So I'm kind of like an anti-smoker who used to be on 40 a day :). I also didn't take him on face value - I watched a tape of myself training the long form before and after I started the sword and a lot of errors were creeping in.

apologies for any offense - I was in a bad mood this morning

"one room, many keys"

[Kaitain(UK)]

I train for 2 hours a week with my instructor - we work a lot of pushing hands (what I call pushing hands anyway) - sensitivity, issuing into openings, evasion, footwork based on sensitivity and then freestyle application 'searching' where I see what postures happen naturally. Then we usually finish with attack/defence drills - step in with a combination of punches, try and stick to the first and end the situation as quickly as possible. That's what I need a taiji training partner for, I'm not interested in competition, I did enough Muay Thai competition to never want to enter another ring again...

rolling - I don't think it has anything to do with taiji. It's cross training - you aren't rooted. As Willie Lim said to me once - 'if you are thrown then you have lost anyway'. Obviously that's just my opinion - I can't see how it benefits Taiji. I'd be interested in your reasoning though.

I think it's a good point that you made about conditioning though - but 1 hour QiGong a day gives me all the stamina and conditioning I need. Working the form in low frame twice a day builds up structural conditioning.

"one room, many keys"

[dz]

Kaitain,
no offense taken! :) As I wrote earlier, I'm sorry that you were disappointed. I hope you'll find suitable pushing hands partner(s) soon. I understand your frustation as I'm in a similar position myself.

I was also taught that the weapons forms teach more than fighting with a weapon, they also train certain mental abilities:

Sabre : determination
Spear : focus
Sword : wisdom

Of course, the weapons training does much more than what is already mentioned - it's a huge part of Tai Chi. I think we all can agree on that one.

Rolling is a part of conditioning, or auxiliary training as Dan calls it himself. Whether or not it is Tai Chi depends on how you define Tai Chi. Wudang Tai Chi Chuan consists of five aspects: Tao Chuan (hand form), Tui Shou (pushing hands), San Shou (self defence/fighting applications), Bing Qi (weapons) and Nei Kung/Kung training (internal strength and conditioning exercises). Using this definition, rolling surely is a part of Dan Docherty's Wudang Tai Chi Chuan.

Daniel Madar,
as I understand it, Dan names his style Wudang because he wants to emphasize the combat oriented side and original Tai Chi as a martial art. His Wudang Tai Chi Chuan is also known as 'Practical Tai Chi Chuan', again, to stress the practical and traditional way of practice.

Regards,
Wai.

[This message was edited by Wai on 05-02-01 at 09:22 AM.]

[dingo]

To answer Daniel Madar's question as to why Dan calls his style "Wudang Taijiquan", the main reason is that it sounds cool, I think. :) The reason that Dan himself gave for using the name is :"Wutan (or Wudang) Mountain in Hubei Province is the spiritual and historical home of Tai Chi
Chuan because that is where the Taoist Chang San-feng formulated the art. So in using this name
we were trying to get away from the myths and conventions perpetuated by the Yang, Chen and
Wu families and to state that our Tai Chi is the original Tai Chi of Chang San-feng from Wutan
Mountain." That is taken from an interview with him in an English MA magazine. In addition, his teacher had done some historical research, (which is described on Dan's site - either www.taichichuan.co.uk (http://www.taichichuan.co.uk) or www.ptcci.freeserve.co.uk (http://www.ptcci.freeserve.co.uk)), and found some historical evidence that corroborated the histories that gave Zhang Sanfeng as the founder of taiji.

Remember also that what Dan practices is not, strictly speaking, Wu Jianquan taiji. His teacher, Cheng Tin-hung, was initially taught by his uncle, Cheng Wing-kwong, who was a disciple of Wu Jianquan. However, his uncle then brought in a taiji teacher called Qi Min-xuan from Wen county, Hebei dao in Henan province (according to the history given on Dan's site) on the recommendation of another taiji teacher, who Cheng Tin-hung credited as his main teacher. Qi's main teacher was a student of Wang Lan-ting, one of Yang Lu-chan's favourite students. Bear in mind that I am just quoting from Dan's site here; there's much more on his site than I have written here with regards to his lineage. Anyway, hope I have helped to clear things up...:)

[silfversurfer]

i know it is frustrating knowing what you need, and want to practice - but you just can't find anyone to train with...it is frustrating.

i agree with you. nei kung is the most important part in the kung-training.

good luck in finding a tui shou-partner.

regards

silfversurfer

[patriot]

As far as I know, DD's teacher in Hong Kong Cheng Tin-Hung studied Wu style and became famous for winning some big Asian open tournaments. He later separated (kicked out?) from the Wu and opened his own school. I guess DD called his syle Wudang to give its system a kind of a label. This is misleading since the real Wudang people in China do have thir own style of Wudang Taichi.

[silfversurfer]

Using the name 'wutan/wudang' is not more misleading than all the wushu schools, that have no lineage whatsoever with traditional wudang arts, now growing up like mushrooms at/around wudang shan. they all use 'wudang' or 'zhang san-feng' in the names of the schools. since wudang is a geographical area it's not so strange...but the stuff they do has no connection with the traditional wudang neijia.

regarding cheng tin-hung lineage i think dingo is right on. he did not only study wu jianquan tai chi, there is also a lineage from qi min-xuan.

regards
s.

[RAF]

Not every pinyin translation Wu Tan(g) refers to the Wudang Mountain or internal martial arts.

When GM Liu founded the Wu Tan Martial Arts Development Center in Taipei, Taiwan, 1971, the characters refer to a sort of martial arts altar where all of the traditional arts could be gathered up and exchanged in hopes of preserving them.

You can read this story at http://www.wutan.org/

Any of the cites teaching GM Liu's material bearing the name of Wutan or Wutang has nothing to do with Wudang martial arts, wudang taiji or the Wudang Mountains of China.

This post is simply a point of reference

[Daniel Madar]

Thanks for the clarifications. Hopefully the next time I go to the UK I will be able to meet up with some of you guys.

I'm sorry if this sounds stupid. I thought there were two Dan's: Doherty and Docherty. Are they the same person?

[dz]

I have no idea who Dan Doherty is, my teacher's name is Dan Docherty. He is scottish and also the founder of Wudang Tai Chi Chuan.

A quick search on 'Dan Doherty' on the net told me that there's an actor named like that. Never heard of him though:
http://www.imdb.com/Name?dan+doherty

:)

Regards,
Wai.

[Daniel Madar]

I actually have one last question. A number of people from various geographical locations have claimed Dan Docherty as their teacher. This is a bit confusing to me, since he seems to have a number of teachers who studied under him.

Are you students of his students, or have you all trained directly and extensively under Dan?

[dz]

Dan Docherty has lots of students all over Europe and many of his students has students themselves. Dan travels a lot and holds several seminars in different countries each year.

When I started to learn Wudang TCC, it was under a couple of his students. Later, I moved to a different city and lost contact with my instructiors. I met Sifu Docherty himself during a week-long seminar and from that day I claim him as my teacher as I went through Baishi and started learning Neikung from him.

I only meet my Sifu a few times a year, mostly during either week-long or weekend seminars. All the other time I practice my Tai Chi with mister Silversulfer (who happens to be my Tai Chi brother), with other students or by myself.

I can't speak for the others, but that's my relationship with Dan Docherty. :)

Regards,
Wai.

[dingo]

Just to add to what Wai said: Dan's main class is in Covent Garden, Central London. However, the man travels a hell of a lot: in the 5 months that I went to that class, I would estimate that for about a month of that time (at least), Dan was doing seminars abroad for his foreign students. So his students abroad do get to see him quite a bit.

[Daniel Madar]

hopefully I'll be in the UK in Late June.

[dz]

Dan will be in Sweden on a instructor's camp (25th-30th June) and it wouldn't be a very good idea if you want to meet him in person in London during that time.

Just thought you should know that if you're planning to see him in UK during your visit there. :)

Regards,
Wai.

[Daniel Madar]

Actually, if things work out I'll most likely be in stockholm immediately afterwards.

[dz]

planning to come to the country of the beautiful blondes, er? ;)

It would be nice to meet you, but if things work out as I planned, I will be going on vacation with my GF directly after the camp with Dan. Which means I'm not going to be in Stockholm.

Maybe next time? Where do you live?

[Daniel Madar]

I live in SF, but my partner in London is swedish, and some of our investors come from Sweden.

And, sadly, if you read the Asian women thread, I'm not partial to asian women just women with dark hair and dark eyes. I'm not too big on tall blonds, unless its Brigitte Nielson in her red Sonja outfit.

((Was she actually blonde?))