My Take on "Arts that dont work"

[Adventure427]

This is for all the trolls...and the newbs....(even tho im kinda one :D )...and people who are genuinely curious as to why they feel certain arts "dont work"...Maybe this can put the argument to rest.

Every art designed for fighting.....EVERY art that i can think of.....if you strip it down.....has basic elements used for fighting.

Every art that i can think of seeks to finish a fight primarily with a strike or a submission. Every powerful strike that lands in the right place at the right time can end the fight. (Notice i said at the right place at the right time and powerful) So to say a certain striking art "doesn't work" doesn't make sense. People used to say this about kung fu to me..i'd say "ok, so if i punch you in the face...that doesn't work?"

Then a submission move....if it is put on you....will either break a body part or cause you to pass out. Every fighting art that does not seek to strike to end the fight has a move like this. If I break your arm/wrist/leg/neck/cause you to pass out...whatever....does that not work?

What people doubt is usually not whether the technique itself would WORK per se (even though thats how they communicate it)....its whether THEY could LAND the technique themself (or the practitioners they've seen). Which brings us back to the basics. If i have trained a strike enough times....and can hit hard enough and fast enough and as many times as needed to end the fight....then the art works...whatever it is. Every art has something to contribute. If it is a FIGHTING art, and it has lasted some time...chances are there are some aspects to it...so that you COULD (in theory) make it effective. This goes for grappling too.

I think alot of people are afraid to train hard....and so they choose an art they feel they can 'baby'. And maybe it just so happens that some arts that people feel DONT WORK....are just arts that alot of people take that aren't very disciplined enough to develop much skill. And then THEY are the ones who are noticed, or they become the majority...and so people conclude "that art doesn't work"...but since when does getting punched in the face, kicked in the nuts or getting a joint broken "not work"??? Just my 2cents...i always seen the statement that an entire FIGHTING ART doesn't work as a statement given without much thought (or just uninformed) And i was hoping to atleast put that to rest here. I feel every art has something to contribute. Even though i may not like ALOT about a given art.

[SevenStar]

I REALLY wanna reply to this, but refuse to type a long reply on my phone. I'll reply when I get to work...

[bodhitree]

Seven, what do you do besides bouncing?

[SevenStar]

web site maintenance for the purple and orange.

[Knifefighter]

If it is a FIGHTING art, and it has lasted some time...chances are there are some aspects to it...so that you COULD (in theory) make it effective. This goes for grappling too.

Regular fighting and sparring is the key to making any art work. The systems that work are filled with fighters who regularly spar/fight/compete and train with mondern training methods. On the other hand, the arts that don't work are populated by theoretical non-fighters who dance around doing forms, theorize about how fighting should be, and practice techniques that are too "lethal" to be applied full force against resisting opponents.

For fighters (and their coaches) from the more workable systems, the techniques they use are simply solutions for problems encountered in fighting/sparring. Fighters (and their coaches) start with the problems encountered in their fighting/sparring to find the techniques, strategies and tactics that will solve these problems. After finding potential solutions, these solutions are then tried out in sparring and fighting. The solutions that work are incorporated into the fighters' (and the system they train in) repertoires, while the one’s that aren’t effective are discarded. The techniques of systems that work are constantly evolving from the fighting environment.

Since theoretical non-fighters (and their teachers, who have never fought) are not fighting in the first place, they have no other place to start but with their theories. That is why they have to search out their forms to find the techniques that they think they can use in fighting. Since they aren’t really fighting, they can never know whether or not these techniques will actually work or not. Because of this, as time goes by, their arsenal gets diluted with a variety of less effective practices and their precious forms filled with unworkable techniques.

Since they they are actually using their techniques in fighting and sparring, real fighters have never had a need to catalog their techniques into forms. Since the techniques are constantly being used and being refined, they are always out there to be seen in the sparring/fighting sessions.

On the other hand, theoretical non-fighters have developed entire systems around theoretical techniques than can be applied in theoretical fighting. These systems are usually categorized into forms.

[bodhitree]

web site maintenance for the purple and orange.


Purple and orange? the colors?

[Royal Dragon]

Since theoretical non-fighters (and their teachers, who have never fought) are not fighting in the first place, they have no other place to start but with their theories. That is why they have to search out their forms to find the techniques that they think they can use in fighting. Since they aren’t really fighting, they can never know whether or not these techniques will actually work or not. Because of this, as time goes by, their arsenal gets diluted with a variety of less effective practices and their precious forms filled with unworkable techniques.

Reply]
Well said. Also, because they don't fight, thye don't have a basis for reverse engineering the techniques in thier forms either...so what thye come up with is wildly ineffective.

Since they they are actually using their techniques in fighting and sparring, real fighters have never had a need to catalog their techniques into forms. Since the techniques are constantly being used and refined, they are always out there to be seen in the sparring/fighting sessions.

Reply]
Hmm, not sure i agre here...it'smore like thhey don't have a huge arsenal, and are more concerned with HOW to use what they have.

On the other hand, theoretical non-fighters have developed entire systems around theoretical techniques than can be applied in theoretical fighting. These systems are usually categorized into forms.

Reply]
I think that is true in a few cases, but forms are more to catalog and preserve what was found to be effective techniques by *Real* fighters of the time period. Learning the choreography, and making that the emphis of the practice was never the intent. You originally leanred hte techniques, and how to fight with them first, and then slowly over the years of training, the form emerged by simmple doing each thechnique you know in a series one, after the other to help you remeber all of them. This was especially so when you had alarge number of troops to teach, and you had to provide a large buffet of useable skills because you just didn't know what technique would best suit each individual out of the thousands you are trying to teach.

[MasterKiller]

Purple and orange? the colors?

*cough*Fed Ex*cough*

[bodhitree]

I thought he meant a sports team or something.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Regular fighting and sparring is the key to making any art work. The systems that work are filled with fighters who regularly spar/fight/compete and train with mondern training methods. On the other hand, the arts that don't work are populated by theoretical non-fighters who dance around doing forms, theorize about how fighting should be, and practice techniques that are too "lethal" to be applied full force against resisting opponents.

For fighters (and their coaches) from the more workable systems, the techniques they use are simply solutions for problems encountered in fighting/sparring. Fighters (and their coaches) start with the problems encountered in their fighting/sparring to find the techniques, strategies and tactics that will solve these problems. After finding potential solutions, these solutions are then tried out in sparring and fighting. The solutions that work are incorporated into the fighters' (and the system they train in) repertoires, while the one’s that aren’t effective are discarded. The techniques of systems that work are constantly evolving from the fighting environment.

Since theoretical non-fighters (and their teachers, who have never fought) are not fighting in the first place, they have no other place to start but with their theories. That is why they have to search out their forms to find the techniques that they think they can use in fighting. Since they aren’t really fighting, they can never know whether or not these techniques will actually work or not. Because of this, as time goes by, their arsenal gets diluted with a variety of less effective practices and their precious forms filled with unworkable techniques.

Since they they are actually using their techniques in fighting and sparring, real fighters have never had a need to catalog their techniques into forms. Since the techniques are constantly being used and being refined, they are always out there to be seen in the sparring/fighting sessions.

On the other hand, theoretical non-fighters have developed entire systems around theoretical techniques than can be applied in theoretical fighting. These systems are usually categorized into forms.


Agree with KF 100 percent but want to add one thing, individual. What works and what doesn't can be an individual thing. There are techniques fighters use constantly, (jab, cross, roundhouse, sprawl, double leg takedown) that are battle tested and work, but may not work for certain people because they a. Don't train them correctly or b. lack of athletic ability or not training hard enough. There is no one technique that will work everytime on every person. But techniques can be put generally in two categories:

1. Battle tested techniques(boxing, kickboxing, sub grappling)- When the individual trains correctly they work.

2. Theorized techniques( Emperer's Monkey Fist Dragon Flies to the sun across the ocean and pulls off opponent's testacles)- Doubtful.

[bodhitree]

I like spinach on my pizzas. anybody else?

[SevenStar]

Hmm, not sure i agre here...it'smore like thhey don't have a huge arsenal, and are more concerned with HOW to use what they have.

do you have any idea how many techniques are in bjj?

[

[SevenStar]

I like spinach on my pizzas. anybody else?

so do I. :cool:

[bodhitree]

Healthy pizza= whole wheat crust, homemade tomato sauce, spinach, cheese+ goodness

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Does healthy = Macaroni & Cheese Pizza from CiCi's.:D

[MasterKiller]

do you have any idea how many techniques are in bjj?

[

Last time I checked, it was one billion and three, but I'm sure Eddie Bravo has invented a few new ones since then.

[Royal Dragon]

do you have any idea how many techniques are in bjj?

Reply]
It doesn't matter, they have them all on the Gracie CD ROM, so they only really need to remeber the few they like the most. I have never seen a UFC fight where either fighter uses more than a hand full of techniques.

Forms were developed back in a time when we didn't have the gracie CD ROM and the teachers had to find a way to remember hundreds, and hundreds of techniques, so thier students had a good buffet of workable material to choose from. The term Buffet being the operative word here. The FIGHTERS don't need to knnow the entire systems arsenal, ONLY the teachers need that. They would teach everyone what seems to work best for them, or offer it all, and let the fighter himself choose.

The teachers don't really fight much anymore outside of thier own students (too old), but they teach the life time of experiance from when they did fight. The thing is, no one ever fights with an entire aresenal all at once, that has been collected over a lifetime. They fight with a small group of techniques that they find the most useful at the moment...and you just don't need a form to remember a small group of techniques.

[BruceSteveRoy]

Does healthy = Macaroni & Cheese Pizza from CiCi's.:D

i miss good pizza. i used to live 1/4 mile from a great pizzeria in NJ. in MD most of the pizza is either cardboard with cheese and sauce or dominoes/pizza hut/ papa john's generic prepackaged stuff. cici's is an abomination in the eyes of god and should be smote. smited. whatever the word is for that tense of smite. although i recently ate at a place called mama lucias and that is by far the best pizza in the area. reminds me of this place i used to go to in philly.

i was told the pizza (and bread for that matter) in this part of the country is so awful bc the hardness/softness of the water does allow the dough to rise correctly. such is life.

[MasterKiller]

do you have any idea how many techniques are in bjj?

Reply]
It doesn't matter, they have them all on the Gracie CD ROM, so they only really need to remeber the few they like the most. I have never seen a UFC fight where either fighter uses more than a hand full of techniques.

UFC isn't really BJJ. If you go to a submission tournament, you will see a HOOOOGE variety of techniques being displayed.

[bodhitree]

It's called not getting fired. Corporations search message boards and blogs for references to their names to make sure employees aren't leaking information or publicly criticizing policy.

I tell everyone I work for the Big Red H. If you don't know what I mean, pick up a newspaper sometime.:D


Did D!ck Cheney used to be ceo????

[Fu-Pow]

And just to add to Knifefigher's brilliant post (:eek: !!!) I think that alot of this modern nonsense goes back to semantics.... the elevation of TCMA from a method of hand to hand combat, to an "art". If you study "combat" you gotta get down and dirty in some combat, if you practice an "art" you can claim to "rise above it."

FP

[SevenStar]

This is for all the trolls...and the newbs....(even tho im kinda one :D )...and people who are genuinely curious as to why they feel certain arts "dont work"...Maybe this can put the argument to rest.

it will never be put to rest. too many people, too many opinions.



Every art designed for fighting.....EVERY art that i can think of.....if you strip it down.....has basic elements used for fighting.

that was actually never in dispute. However, you are learning to fight within a certain realm, which may or may not transfer into other areas. MMA training transfers to other areas well - except maybe the real of sport tkd. Sport TKD doesn't transfer well ANYWHERE, though it can be trained to fit. That said, the main issue is training methods, not so much the style. However, if the style in general is known for sorry ass training methods, then you can't say a whole lot else about the style.


Every art that i can think of seeks to finish a fight primarily with a strike or a submission. Every powerful strike that lands in the right place at the right time can end the fight. (Notice i said at the right place at the right time and powerful) So to say a certain striking art "doesn't work" doesn't make sense. People used to say this about kung fu to me..i'd say "ok, so if i punch you in the face...that doesn't work?"

probablility. What are the chances that you will hit someone with a jump spinning crescent kick? what is the chance that you will hit them with a roundhouse kick?


Then a submission move....if it is put on you....will either break a body part or cause you to pass out. Every fighting art that does not seek to strike to end the fight has a move like this. If I break your arm/wrist/leg/neck/cause you to pass out...whatever....does that not work?

just because the style has it means nothing. some locks are easier to escape than others - a standing arm bar is a good example. when you are on the ground, you maintain more control over your opponent - the less space they have to move, the easier it is for them to escape.


What people doubt is usually not whether the technique itself would WORK per se (even though thats how they communicate it)....its whether THEY could LAND the technique themself (or the practitioners they've seen).

not really. it's probability, like I mentioned above. Theoretically, a kick to the head is great. legs are stronger than hands, it can easily KO a guy. Realistically, when you put your leg that high, you also have a higher probability of being taken down, as you are already off balance. nobody is saying that high kicks absolutely don't work, just that common sense and previous engagements tell us that hand strikes and low kicks are safer. most of us have probably used - and landed - the very techniques we are talking against.



Which brings us back to the basics. If i have trained a strike enough times....and can hit hard enough and fast enough and as many times as needed to end the fight....then the art works...whatever it is. Every art has something to contribute. If it is a FIGHTING art, and it has lasted some time...chances are there are some aspects to it...so that you COULD (in theory) make it effective. This goes for grappling too.

you keep reiterating the same thing. See my above reply about training methodology.


I think alot of people are afraid to train hard....and so they choose an art they feel they can 'baby'.

interesting. Please explain.


And maybe it just so happens that some arts that people feel DONT WORK....are just arts that alot of people take that aren't very disciplined enough to develop much skill.

or are arts with inefficient training methods and strategies tied into them.


but since when does getting punched in the face, kicked in the nuts or getting a joint broken "not work"???

getting kicked in the nuts really doesn't work the way people think it does. I've been kicked there a few times and didn't feel it until AFTER the confrontation, which is too late. I've seen that happen to others too.

[MasterKiller]

probablility. What are the chances that you will hit someone with a jump spinning crescent kick? what is the chance that you will hit them with a roundhouse kick?. So says the man who keeps showing us high flying Capoeira clips.

[Black Jack II]

Getting kicked in the nuts really doesn't work the way people think it does. I've been kicked there a few times and didn't feel it until AFTER the confrontation, which is too late. I've seen that happen to others too.

Were you amped up before you got the kick to sly and the family stone's?

Both cases have happened to me, amped up, felt it afterward. Not ready for any physical intent...bam, it hurt bad.

[SevenStar]

It doesn't matter, they have them all on the Gracie CD ROM, so they only really need to remeber the few they like the most. I have never seen a UFC fight where either fighter uses more than a hand full of techniques.

I doubt things like the de la riva guard and any of eddie bravo's stuff is on a gracie CD... you're not talking about gracie in action, are you? as for techniques, go to a grappling tournament. At the one we threw two weeks ago, I saw a flying arm bar, omo plata, rolling knee bar, gogoplata and several other submissions you don't see much in mma.


Forms were developed back in a time when we didn't have the gracie CD ROM and the teachers had to find a way to remember hundreds, and hundreds of techniques, so thier students had a good buffet of workable material to choose from. The term Buffet being the operative word here. The FIGHTERS don't need to knnow the entire systems arsenal, ONLY the teachers need that. They would teach everyone what seems to work best for them, or offer it all, and let the fighter himself choose.

unnecessary. I know several hundred grappling techniques and not one form for them. I don't have any CD either. Do I use them all? he11 no, but I have not forgotten them. I know 67 throws but only use about 8 on a regular basis. I didn't need a form to help me remember them, however, I can see the benefit of forms in that respect.


The teachers don't really fight much anymore outside of thier own students (too old), but they teach the life time of experiance from when they did fight. The thing is, no one ever fights with an entire aresenal all at once, that has been collected over a lifetime. They fight with a small group of techniques that they find the most useful at the moment...and you just don't need a form to remember a small group of techniques.

I am still trying to find this small group of techniques you are referring to. Even muay thai has a ton of techniques, you just never see them in mma or thai matches. Why? because they use what they have the most success with.

[SevenStar]

Were you amped up before you got the kick to sly and the family stone's?

Both cases have happened to me, amped up, felt it afterward. Not ready for any physical intent...bam, it hurt bad.

yeah, you are right about that. since we are always talking about while the fight is in progress though, that is what i am referring to. A pre-emptive nad kick is different.

[bodhitree]

big red H, I must be slow, I can't figure it out.

[MasterKiller]

big red H, I must be slow, I can't figure it out.

You had it a few posts back...

[SevenStar]

So says the man who keeps showing us high flying Capoeira clips.

shaddup. but in those same clips he got the guy down, mounted and pounded him. And the clips I showed were for the purpose of highlighting takedowns and sweeps in the style. :p

Now go back to practicing your longfist forms.

[MasterKiller]

shaddup. but in those same clips he got the guy down, mounted and pounded him. And the clips I showed were for the purpose of highlighting takedowns and sweeps in the style. :p

Now go back to practicing your longfist forms.I need to practice my 11th form seven more times so I can remember how to kick you in the Kegel!

[SevenStar]

It's called not getting fired. Corporations search message boards and blogs for references to their names to make sure employees aren't leaking information or publicly criticizing policy.

I tell everyone I work for the Big Red H. If you don't know what I mean, pick up a newspaper sometime.:D

exactly. We actually had a guy who used to talk about his work experiences in his blogs... He talked about everything from test plans to code he was writing. He also put criticisms on it...

[SevenStar]

I need to practice my 11th form seven more times so I can remember how to kick you in the Kegel!

My kegel skills are legendary - ask your woman. your kick wouldn't phase me.

[MasterKiller]

My kegel skills are legendary - ask your woman. your kick wouldn't phase me.

I'll practice that form 25 times, then!!!!!!

[bodhitree]

You had it a few posts back...

you're Dr. Evil arent you?

[MasterKiller]

you're Dr. Evil arent you?

No, but I work for him. :o

[bodhitree]

Now, back to that pizza.

[Hitman]

Adventure427

My Take on "Arts that dont work"


Based on my experiences I think that you have forgotten to mention those sifus, who deliberately teaching dancing techniques and then tell his/her students that they could fight. I used to know a tai chi teacher who had learned from a tradition tai chi master from Hong Kong for 15 years. She had performed in China and everyone had praised how good her form was. However, she could not even defence herself in a fight against an untrained person. This was because she was even taught how to apply tai chi in a fight.

2. In today's fast food society, everyone wants to be an expert without paying the price. You do not expect to run 25 miles non stop after four days training! However, people do expect to become black belts after four days! Why does this happened? Answer - people blindly believing their sifus and everything published on books, internet & magazines.

3. It does not matter if your teacher can fight well or not. However, the ability to fight does help.

Joe Fraser was a very talented world boxing champion in the 1970 (?), but could he turn his son and daughter into boxing champions?
Answer - no.

What is more important is whether your teacher can teach you how to fight. Many famous tennis stars, boxers, runners hired professional coaches to help them to win their games. Most of those coaches are less talented than their famous students. Why do they got the job of coaching famous people, instead of trying to make a name for themselves in their own sport. Answer - they are not talented enough to win the game. However, they can teach and spot the mistakes you are making. Therefore, improve the chances of you winning your chosen sport, e.g Ali's boxing coach.

You cannot learn how to swim without going into the water. This also apply to martial arts.
This is my point of view only.

[Adventure427]

Ok since i dont know how to group everything else into their own individual quotes like everyone else, i'll just look at yours and will try to respond to it all SevenStar ^_^

Ok...I definantly agree with the "the main issue is training methods, not so much the style" ... Because i feel no matter how good the art is, if you dont train what you need to train from the style ENOUGH...your not gonna be any good. Regardless of the style. That's like going to a boxing gym once a week..and never practicing at home and expecting to be golden gloves. Doubtful.


Then you Said "just because the style has it means nothing. some locks are easier to escape than others - a standing arm bar is a good example. when you are on the ground, you maintain more control over your opponent - the less space they have to move, the easier it is for them to escape."


Yep, i totally agree. Even the best styles got BS in the system. And by the same token, even the worst styles have good stuff in em. TKD for example (not saying its the worst, just using it as an example because you did)...Yea they have high round house spinning kick in the air axe kick, lol....no but seriously, they have typical kicks that other systems use too, and they also have basic punches. If you just take the essential ingredients you prefer and decide "ok, i just want to train these 15moves or less even....you can be great. You dont have to train the impractical moves...and i could be wrong, but every style may have some impractical moves....cept maybe boxing....but then again they dont have takedowns either. :p

Ok so i think that adresses everything you said pretty much.....we definantly agree. Improbable moves are next to useless...(i say next to...because even though a high kick is very risky, you see alot of ko's in the ufc from it...but i know, thats sport)

I definantly agree...and i think you put it into words better than i could...that its the TRAINNING method that distinguishes what you get out of a style.



OH PS: What i meant by "they see a style they think they can baby"....well let's take BJJ For example.....in most clubs i imagine....(i haven't been in any, none near me)....they have some intense to moderate intense grappling...and it's clearly not something you can just go in 'lightly' with.....compared to...a taekwon do class where there is 100students kicking and punching in the air. (No offense to TKD'ers, i know there is good stuff about it, its just alot of people use it as an example, and im sure your used to it by now if u been on the forum for a while)