Does anybody recognize this form/style?

[Jingwu Man]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ordxGHhifjg

Saw it, and liked it. Any help would be appreciated.
Thx.

[Sal Canzonieri]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ordxGHhifjg

Saw it, and liked it. Any help would be appreciated.
Thx.

They've never taught it to the public, it is one of the Rou Quan version of the Pao Chui, the later version I think (mixed with Luohon), that Chen taiji is partly based on originally.
Like they said in the video, it is reserved only for senior (old) monks.
It isn't done like modern wushu influenced Shaolin forms are done now, esp this particular form.

[Sal Canzonieri]

This is one of the Rou Quan forms too (later version mixed with Luohan):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb88MRwkhes

The Qing Dynasty Rou Quan is mixed with Luohan.

The old Rou Quan is not, it looks more like Tai Tzu Quan.

[Jingwu Man]

Great! Thanks a lot!
I know Rouquan is an old shaolin system, but is it mainstream there, have people been doing at the temple for a while, or is it the kind of thing that has been re-introduced to the temple after the rebuilding?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Great! Thanks a lot!
I know Rouquan is an old shaolin system, but is it mainstream there, have people been doing at the temple for a while, or is it the kind of thing that has been re-introduced to the temple after the rebuilding?

Well, after the 1928 burning, there effectively was no specific Shaolin central location, and the monks practiced near by, they preserved the forms and from that point they spread all over as people left the area over time.
During the Cultural Revolution, it was really decimated, as monks and nuns were forced to marry.
So, up until Shaolin was rebuilt after 1981, the only people doing real traditional authentic Shaolin Quan was either very old ex-Shaolin people (monks/laymen) who remained in Henan province or the students of these monks/laymen who left Shaolin area and moved to other provinces (Shanghai, Shandong, etc).

Rou Quan was practiced only traditionally by the oldest Shaolin people, the inner circle (that's also one of the reasons was called Nei Gong, by the way).

The purpose of the Rou Quan was to cleanse the internal organs, while still keeping the old practioner nimble and able to exercise self defense. It is a nei gong first, then a self defense system. it is composed of movements from the Ba Duan Ji Qi Gong (The Eight Treasures) and the ancient Shaolin Dragon-Tiger Qigong and the other nei gong sets, with Tong Bei self defense takedowns (at least I recognize all the moves as being done the same as Tong Bei style does them and Tong Bei was taught at Shaolin a long time and it is pretty common style in Henan province since the 1500s). When you see it done slow/fast, hard/soft it looks a lot like a combo of large frame Chen, Yang, and Wu tai ji quan.

I know that the best known modern people who's teacher's passed Rou Quan on to them are:
Shi Degian, Zhu Tianxi (a true great!), Liu ZhiHai, and Mao Jingguang.
I think that Shi YongZhi knows it too.

[Jingwu Man]

Thanks!
So is Rouquan a powerful fighting system? Akin to the Hongquan forms?
It looks powerful, but would it be taught to younger monks as a skill to practice, fight, and advance with, or only to the aging monks to stay in shape and work their qi?
I'm sure I would never want to cross a senior monk using that style, though.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Thanks!
So is Rouquan a powerful fighting system? Akin to the Hongquan forms?
It looks powerful, but would it be taught to younger monks as a skill to practice, fight, and advance with, or only to the aging monks to stay in shape and work their qi?
I'm sure I would never want to cross a senior monk using that style, though.

Yes, Rou guan is powerful, it's what Long Fist and Tai Ji comes from originally.
Look at this again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb88MRwkhes
it practically looks like Yang Cheng Fu himself!

Mostly old monks do it, but if younger people didn't learn it at some point that I and others wouldn't have learned it.
The shorter 36 posture Rou Quan has been taught, recently by both Zhu Tianxi and Liu ZhiHai. First you learn the Luohan Gong execises then you learn the Rou gong and Rou Quan.

(There are two different Shaolin Rou Quan systems, the old one that is nei gong based and the later Qing dynasty version that is mixed with Luohan Quan. They share some postures.)

[Shaolinlueb]

i can see the difference in the forms at shaolin. but in general all the stuff looks alike and has the whole songshan flavor. i hope you understand what i am tlkaing about.

[Sal Canzonieri]

i can see the difference in the forms at shaolin. but in general all the stuff looks alike and has the whole songshan flavor. i hope you understand what i am tlkaing about.

I really do not like any modern Shaolin, it just looks like cartoon robots.

THIS is real Shaolin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQbZsgJ-pb4

Only old people are worth looking into, far as I am concerned.

[B-Rad]

I'm not sure I see what's better about this video... his footwork is less stable, he's slower, and even uses a much wider horse stance (which most traditionalists would tell me is purely a "modern wushu" trait). I still like the form, but I'm not seeing what makes it so much superior :confused:

[B-Rad]

Also, an somewhat OT question but just thought I'd ask here rather than creating a new thread... but do you and RD remember talking about a vcd of Shaolin Taizu Quan that was mislabeled? Starring a stocky looking monk with a beard? I went ahead and bought the vcd quite awhile ago, but can't remember what website I got it from (you provided the link, I think) :p I wanted to check out some other stuff from this group... think you could help me out? :D

[Jingwu Man]

Sal, what do you consider to be modern shaolin, and what is good or bad ?
I personally can't stand the forms that have flips and aerials every second move.

[Kung Pao]

I absolutely loathe shaolin kung-fu on the large part, at least what you see coming out of the temple, anyways.

I know people say the techniques are guarded and entrenched in kung-fu forms, but in theirs, I honestly don't think there's anything in there except common front sweeps, roundhouses, snap kicks, and punches.

Is it any wonder they do san shou kickboxing when they do combat exhibitions, lol?

They know kung fu like Bo knows kung fu.lol.

[LFJ]

compare these two videos of shaolin xiaohongquan as they have been in comparisons before:

traditional xiaohongquan
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bT9IgCqFjgA

modern xiaohongquan
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IVJ5q5n8ii0&mode=related&search=

first, take into account the first video is from an instructional dvd and is done at a slower pace to make the movements visible so you can learn off of it. and the second video is done as a demonstration for the friend with the camera.

secondly, without comparing the skill of the performers look at how the form is done.

as you can see in the first video, there is a lot of neigong, internal work. thats how ancient shaolin forms are done. fast and slow, internal and external, straight but not straight, bent but not bent, etc..

now the second video shows a modern tendency to want to move fast and strike hard with simplified movements in a completely external way. its missing all the neigong that is inside it which makes for a completely different type of power. there is no fast and slow, internal and external, everything is extended. (shi yongbin here also missed an entire section of elbows but hey, shi yongzhi isnt as flexible)

now take the ideals from both and compare. you'll then notice a major difference in the way shaolin forms are done modernly to how they are done in the ancient traditional neigong/waigong form.

if you understand the points being made here, you'll see how modern forms are distasteful once you understand everything that has been dropped out of it. that is why sal is interested in watching for the old folks, they tend to do it the ancient way with all the neigong still in it.

but on somewhat of a good note, the abbot shi yongxin has been bringing back this ancient way of doing the forms, as i have seen and as you can see here in these videos that you posted. but at the same time he uses the modern style to do performances to bring interest to shaolin, but also doing it in shows that show the buddhist side to shaolin through stories for example. which the intent is to bring interest back into shaolin while holding onto the traditional style in line with chan buddhism.

that modern and traditional mixture can be seen in the other videos from the poster on youtube of that senior monk form. unfortunately though, all people want to see and do is the modern style.

so we'll see what happens in the following years.

and a treat for reading through my post:

shi yongxin's modern and traditional blend
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_8tt_RjJy0&NR=1

[Royal Dragon]

but do you and RD remember talking about a vcd of Shaolin Taizu Quan that was mislabeled?

Reply]

http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin9Two.html

[LFJ]

the shaolin connection is through discipleship of the two heads from yongxin. as for the martial arts, no apparent connection that i see. (probably as light as you'll hear it)

[MasterKiller]

So then what is the USSD system of Shaolin Kempo?

Made up forms by Mattera.

[xcakid]

Made up forms by Mattera.

Not quite. He got em from Fred Villari. A lot of the 2nd and up black belt forms are from various kung fu styles that were brought in by students that came from other styles. 1 degree black still does Hansuki, Circle of the Tiger and Kata form like the Villari system. They have added various northern and souther forms from that point on though.

Mattera did modify a few of the forms vs the Villari forms, mainly varying the hand strikes or adding a block/strike here and there. Villari got his forms from Nick Cerios. Pinan forms are straight Karate though. You will see the 1st Pinan form that USSD does is the same as you would see in some Karate styles and TaeKwonDo. I do believe there are a few made up forms there though. Stature of the Crane and the 2 man fist sets are the ones I have never seen in other systems. Not sure if Cerios made them up or if it was Villari.

I actually like the way Mattera took more of the Kung Fu route with their forms. A lot of the Shaolin Kempo lineages, be it Ralph Castro or Villari have adopted the harder more American Kenpo forms. Although Castro does have CMA weapons in their system.

The weapons forms for USSD also were brought in by various students. The only standard form when I was with them was a broadsword form, bo kata form and a sai form. All other seem to vary depending on the school. I have a broardsword and staff form that is from Shaolin Long Fist, a double edge sword form and fan form that came from Choy Li Fut. And lastly a spear form that I later found out is taught at all of the Eagle Claw school under Leung Shums lineage. Of course this was back in early 90's when USSD is in its infancy.

As far as the Shaolin connection, NIL, Nada, Zip. Aside from the rumored large donation Mattera made to get himself somehow a ranking certificate from the Shaolin Temple. The whole lineage of Mattera's system leads back to Villari, then Cerios, and up from there to K S Chow. Mattera did drop off Villaris name in the lineage chart after he took the schools in the west coast from Villari. He then cozied up with Cerios and used that direct lineage instead.

[MasterKiller]

Where did his "White Spider" forms come from?

[xcakid]

Where did his "White Spider" forms come from?


Got no clue. :confused: Must've been added after I left. A lot of Mattera's black belt forms have changed. I notice from the You Tube videos, they now have drunken forms. I have never seen them before.

[B-Rad]

Thanks RD :D

[sk girl]

Hey xcakid,

Mattera made up the weapon forms.

No one ever saw matteras certificate for 8th or 10th dan.

[xcakid]

Hey xcakid,

Mattera made up the weapon forms.

No one ever saw matteras certificate for 8th or 10th dan.

That's cause Nick Cerios was not alive to sign em. ;)

[Sal Canzonieri]

on the same page as the Rou Quan vid there are also vids of USSD practitioners doing Tiger and Budda fist? Sal what are your thoughts on USSD and the Shaolin connection? And I am not intending to bash just want some clarity on the subject for my own mind. Thank you.

That its a bunch of crud.

That "buddha fist" was laughable modern junk. That form was nothing like the movements from the real version.

[SenseiShellie]

That its a bunch of crud.

That "buddha fist" was laughable modern junk. That form was nothing like the movements from the real version.

The "buddha fist" form is a form that Tak Wah Eng made up for a seminar, before they burned him. It's still nothing like what he teaches.

[xcakid]

Tiger form and a Dragon form is also Tak Wah Eng.

[ninja matt]

Hey did you go to the seminar ?