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View Full Version : IRON PALM INFO NEEDED!



Slater_E
06-21-2000, 04:02 AM
any one here use an ointment like the dit da jow ointment? only do you make it yourself?
if you don't mind me stealing your recepie, what do you ise and how do you make it?

------------------
"In a fight, there is no second place."

dfedorko@mindspring.com
08-28-2001, 08:35 PM
Look in martial arts magazines like "Inside Kung Fu" and there are plenty of ads selling the herbs to make Dit Da Jow. They will even explain to you "how to" make it. Have a good day.

Damian

EARTH DRAGON
08-28-2001, 10:11 PM
I will find it hard to beleive that anyone will give you the receipe. It is something that any herbologist will never reveal. If you order so called jow from books you will only get ripped off, again no one will ever give you their real receipe you would be better off asking famous amous for his! but seroiusly learn iron palm from a certified teacher who will give you some of his own batch, many problems can occur from incorrect training and improper jow mixtures. i,e hand disfigurment, loss of nerve sensitivity, imopantencey, even blindness. so please DO NOT try to learn from a book or buy jow over the internet or in KF magazines it will only do you harm. I will give you a few of the herbs in english so that if you decide to do it your self at least youll have some what of an idea OK?
lion coin
sasafrass flower seed
mung bean extract
gispoin root
astralugus branch
remember these are just a few and not the total amount of herbs so again do not try to use just these, you will do serious damage to your self externally and internally with very little indication

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

nobody
08-29-2001, 05:08 AM
what is iron palm all about. i mean, what kind of principals is it based on.

Nexus
08-29-2001, 08:19 AM
Earth Dragon has a good point and I would read his post carefully before you choose to order jow from the internet or try to make your own. Mine as well take the time to do it right the first time by getting it correct for sure rather than taking the risk of having an improper recipe etc etc.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

dfedorko@mindspring.com
08-29-2001, 02:17 PM
Contact Thomas Richard Joiner at tjseaofchi@aol.com and he will help you. He is a Qigong Master and an Herbalist. He has a two publications out on herbs, "The Warrior as Healer" and I can't recall the other publication herbs and remedies for whatever ails you. He is a very humble and truthful person. He does not charge an arm/leg. Have a good day.

Damian

Crimson Phoenix
08-29-2001, 02:58 PM
Why not try Wing Lam's dit da??
They say it's the original recipe used by Ku Yu Cheong (by the way, is this the cantonese for Guo Yun Chen or Gu Ru Zhang? I believe on the bottle the pic is from Gu, but I'd bet the translation of Ku Yu Cheong in Guo Yun Chen...anybody can help??)...got carried away...wether or not or to what extent this is true, it cannot be a bad product since I believe it is the one they use when they train...

EARTH DRAGON
08-29-2001, 05:39 PM
once again please read my post, NO ONE will offer you their real receipe, just as no one will devoldge their family secrets. Find a teacher and he will probaly share his mixture while you train under him, but will not tell you how to make your own.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Wolfgang Kruger
08-29-2001, 06:20 PM
I must agree with Damion on this one, Contact Thomas for all your Herb Needs.

In this day and age, Good Jow mixtures are readily available, I disagree with the "You will never get the recipe statement" This was maybe true 30 yrs ago, but not now :-)

Also , the herbs listed above would not even work as a good perfume, let alone a Dit Da Jow. What you must understand is , there are only so many Herbs that can be used in this application, different Masters just use different combinations to achieve the same end, as well different ways to prepare the herbs.

Wolfgang

IronFist
08-29-2001, 06:51 PM
Wing Lam's is supposedly very good jow. I've never heard anything bad about it.

Just don't spill it :P The first time I opened one I was careless and like 20% of it spilled out all over the table top. Haha, whoops. It made the room smell funny :)

I think it's like $8/4oz bottle? But you can buy cases of 10 or 12 for a discount.

Iron

EARTH DRAGON
08-29-2001, 08:00 PM
I am a little confused, were you talking about the herbs I listed? becuse they are certainly a few of the main ingredients in any jow formula, I have been making my own jow for 6 years from a 1,800 receipe and I am a practicing herbologist and O.M.D and I assure you those herbs are found in all dit dat jow, just ask your freind thomas. So please do not deteir or speak on something that you dont have full knowledge about for that would make some awful smelling perfume LOL thank you

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Wolfgang Kruger
08-29-2001, 08:16 PM
You are correct:
My statement was that the herbs listed would NOT make a good Dit DA Jow, Maybe if you provide a proper list of Herbs, I could comment further.

I could only comment on what was on your Post.If you really know herbs, you would know that the herb list that you provided even though incomplete, would make a Very Weak Jow.

Wolfgang

Pointy
08-29-2001, 09:12 PM
I would not recommend any conditioning/hardening without supervision by capable teacher. It is just so easy to cause injury to oneself.

Perhaps I'm a bit extreme here but better be on the safe side on this one.

"Life? I don't need a life, I know kung fu..."

EARTH DRAGON
08-29-2001, 09:47 PM
I did say in my post that these are a FEW of the herbs in english included in most jow formulas. I did not say they are by any means the complete mixture,and NO they are not to be mixed with vodka as some people try to do , I just wanted to give our thread maker a little knowledge of the ingredients so that if he attempted to make the jow himself he would have an idea of SOME of the herbs needed to disapate stangnet blood,circulate wei chi and restructure fascia. I do not plan on listing all the herbs for the above stated reasons. But thank you for your clairification :cool:

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

dfedorko@mindspring.com
08-30-2001, 04:57 PM
Earth Dragon - Master Joiner is not what you say. He is the real McCoy. Sure, you gave a few herbs that are used in a Dit Da Jow but that is it and nothing more. Look at Master Joiner's catalog, read his publications or email him before you pass judgement on this kind and humble man. (TJseaofchi@aol.com)

Iron Fist - Wing Lam's Jow might be good but it loses it's potency when placed in a plastic container. Good jows are in glass jars/bottles and not in plastic containers. You are wasting your money buying a jow in a plastic container.

Damian

dfedorko@mindspring.com
08-30-2001, 05:01 PM
Earth Dragon -

What type of alcohol do you use when you make your Jow? Why do you say that vodka should not be used?

Damian

EARTH DRAGON
08-30-2001, 07:08 PM
I never said anything bad about anybody, where in any of my posts do I say anything negitve about master joiner! I do not know him and have never heard of him, so I cannot and would not judge or discredit him I dont know where you got that from it is NOT in my post. Before I answer your question, do you make your own jow? have you used vodka before? if indeed you do I will tell you why not to use it!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

dfedorko@mindspring.com
08-31-2001, 02:47 PM
I do make make own Jow and I have been doing it for quite some time. When I began Iron Palm training knowing herbs and making Jow was part of the course. I must say I wasn't too keen on it but it has opened many doors for me. I have met some great Iron Palm people, Tai Chi Masters and herbalists. Just for the record, I cook my own Jow. Could you explain why I might do that Earth Dragon since you are a practicing herbalist. Looking forward to your response my friend.

Damian

dfedorko@mindspring.com
08-31-2001, 02:53 PM
Pardon me but I forgot to mention that I have always used vodka in all my jow preparations. I have heard of using rice wine and regular alcohol. But in my experiences the Masters I have talked to use vodka.

Damian

EARTH DRAGON
08-31-2001, 05:16 PM
first to answer your question, vodka is distilled from potatos which in high in starch and does not extract the sap from the roots properly. As for cooking or heating your jow, that simply speeds up the fermentation process, but is not neccessary, it should be natural method and 2-3 years in a cool dark place is the best climate. As for masters that you know, they may use vodka however most iron palm receipes are 1000's of years old so rice wine would be the additive to the mixute many many years before russian vodka was introduced to china, so therfore most masters today still use their family receipe which obviously did not contain vodka plus I have seen vodka jow and it is sticky in comparison. also you have not explained why you said that I discredited master joiner? again I never did this and I dont know the man so please don put words in my mouth

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

dfedorko@mindspring.com
08-31-2001, 08:42 PM
It's fine to use whatever, whatever is handy and however you make it. As long as it works it is okay. Potatoes come from the good earth, it is a healthy vegetable except what people put on them. Things that come from the earth are good, Earth Dragon.

What you said about Master Joiner is what you wrote. Use your wisdom and go over what you wrote. If you can't see it that is your problem. Maybe you need glasses. Otherwise, just forget it. No harm done.

Damian

razakdigital
09-01-2001, 04:51 AM
Just my two cents -

http://www.blacktaoist.com/PaKua%20Palm%20Training.html

EARTH DRAGON
09-01-2001, 05:59 AM
wow you ask me a question or for my advice then you put me down! If you think you can use whatever, whatever is handy then try some jack danniels or maybe gin no how about crown royal then go ahead and use whatever, it doesnt matter to me if your jow is not coagulated or even 100% fermented! I did as you said and used my non eyeglass wearing wisdom to look over my post but did not find any part of it that put down master joiner!again I dont know him, maybe you could help me? cut and paste the post and lets review it together. I dont mean to sound harsh but I do not like people puting words in my mouth, and I was just trying to answer slater E but I guess that was wrong of me!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Crimson Phoenix
09-01-2001, 12:10 PM
If I had the choice, I'd put Bombay Sapphire...

hasayfu
09-02-2001, 09:17 AM
Just some general observations.

I'm no herbalist but I have many si-hings that use jow and have used dit da jow since I was a kid.

I've posted about my Sifu Wing Lam's jow before. In short, I think it's great for bruises and a must for his type of iron palm training. As a general purpose jow and for sore muscles, I have seen better.

As for the alchol, I know several Sifu's that use Vodka but rice wine is the traditional medium.

As for the bottle, My si-gungs Lum Jo and Chiu Wai use plastic bottles. They are famous dit da doctors with thriving practices in Hong Kong and Canada so that might say something. My guess is that it is more economic but it must not have too much of a detrimental effect if any or they wouldn't use it.

On brewing your own, unless you are taught by someone you trust to give you the real deal, I don't see how a recipe you get (where you have to find the herbs in the exact quantities) is any better then the proven commercial brands.

That said, stay away from a brand called 5 "somethings" (sorry, I forgot the name) It's a very popular brand in the chinese stores and has an orange label in a clear glass bottle but I have found it nothing more then a bad perfume.

EARTH DRAGON
09-03-2001, 05:50 AM
hasafu brought up some very good points, the only thing Ive heard about using plastic is that it is made from oil and or petroleum based products and can have a counter effect on the base, but this is after quite a long peroid of time, but I have some jow thats over 10yrs old so I store it in 5 gallon pickle jars which work rather well. As for exact quanities I live near toronto so china town is only 2 hours away and my good freind owns a herbology store, very handy but I am lucky to have it so close, but most herbology or OMD's weigh their formulas so there is hardly ever a problem with exact mixtures. And again it's just a matter of preference on recipe's or bases, just like some itailan chefs use half ripened tomatoes over full but if the sauce tastes good then eat!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

dfedorko@mindspring.com
09-03-2001, 02:51 PM
That article on palm training was very informative. I truly enjoyed it and agree. In the last six months, I have included slapping a tree. I thought it to be very odd at first but it does enchance the training and I enjoy it very much. I would recommend the article for all to read.

Earth Dragon - You just don't understand me so I would like to show you that I have no hard feelings by sending you a bottle of my jow. My email address is dfe****o@mindspring.com. Please no one else email me for a bottle of jow. Have a good day Earth Dragon.

Damia

Nexus
09-03-2001, 05:59 PM
What a loving community :) A bottle of jow for everyone on the house! j/k :-)

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

Nexus
09-04-2001, 08:20 AM
Once again on a serious note, and this is an item up for dispute between many high level practioners. In terms of iron palm, some would say that through the proper internal training, one can develop the iron palm without the external methods (aka slapping the tree) etc. It is unfortunate as in these methods, practioners who make even subtle errors in their training have had erroneous and costly accidents. These surmount to broken hands, knuckles, fingers, disfiguration, joint problems, arthritis etc. One may wish to spend their time cultivating the internal side of the body and in that, the iron palm development will also flourish. Although this method may take more time and energy, in the long run it may save some hardaches.

Just my opinion of course and take it for what you will. This of course is in no way a discouragement for those who practice external methods of iron palm training, just an idea that should be shed in the light as some very high level practioners are capable of iron palm feats without the rigourous external hand exercises.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

EARTH DRAGON
09-04-2001, 07:44 PM
thank you for that nice jesture! I will return the favor and send you a bottle of mine. that is very kind of you thnax

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

EARTH DRAGON
09-04-2001, 07:56 PM
the first time I looked at my iron palm teachers hands I was amazed! I thought they would be calloused and hard like my old sensei who hit makawara boards. but they were not he explained that the conditioning is not the important part of a iron palm but the understanding of hoe to use it! again it is the chi that breaks not the force behind the strike!
has anyone seen a circular hand break? where you place the back of your palm on the brick or slab and pull your hand back and around keeping your fingertips in contact with the surface. it is a most difficult brak I have seen.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

hasayfu
09-04-2001, 10:37 PM
I would say that you should learn Iron Palm from a proven source. I can't speak for hitting trees and dipping hands in hot sand, etc (since I don't know anyone personally who has done those) but for the Iron Palm method taught by my Sifu Wing Lam, it's very safe if you follow the precautions.

We have many si-hings that have done iron palm for over 5-10 years and they have normal looking hands and no problem having kids. I know two people who have learned mainly from the video and they are doing fine as well. I say mainly because they both came in to have Sifu check their form a few months after starting.

The biggest worry is going to fast to gravel and iron. That's when damage can occur but with the jow, the damage is not permanent. The second biggest worry is losing concentration or trying to make up for missed days at one time.

Sifu has been doing iron palm for over 30 years. He has kids, great hands and perfect vision at 50+ years old.

Both he and my si-hings who have done the iron palm for a while can break multiple bricks (no spacers) with the palm on the top brick and rolling over keeping the pinky on the brick at a relatively slow speed, hitting the bricks with the back of the hand. This is by far the most impressive break I have ever seen. You can also hear the difference in the break. It almost has a metallic sound (ping) then a brute force break.

Just another perspective to the one Nexus gave. Your mileage may vary.

YMS
09-05-2001, 08:00 AM
Im wondering how long it takes to develop iron palm or at least to a proficient level in other schools? In my school the program is generally for 40 weeks considering you train every day that period. Of course training doesnt stop there but after 40 weeks you can go silly and start breaking anything you can get with your new power packed hands, LOL

dfedorko@mindspring.com
09-05-2001, 01:14 PM
Nexus -

I have tried that in my own way and I have been unsuccessful. When I would be away from home with no training aids I felt that Qigong, isotonic exercises and an Iron Palm form would be sufficient for that short period of time. Alas, when I would break I completed the break but my hand would sting which never happened. I believe that the hand should "charged". The palm should have that good feeling and not sting after a break. Maybe what I am doing is incorrect. If you can assist and give a hint or two I would appreciate it very much.

Earth Dragon - I am waiting to hear from you.

Damia

dfedorko@mindspring.com
09-05-2001, 01:19 PM
For what it is worth I can perform that break you mentioned. Use intent and focus in performing that break. That is what helped me.

Damian

EARTH DRAGON
09-05-2001, 05:32 PM
do you use the laogung? the center of the palm, and do you strike with the wave action or is it just the rotation of the palm that makes the break? I want to thank you again for your gift of bottle of jow , did you get my email? I will send a bottle of mine in return. Also I saw you do a break with a hammerfist, is this the same type of break that you usually do or are they more internal? And what's the deal with a bottom break? are you passing the chi through all the bricks and just breaking the choosen one? sorry for so many questions

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Nexus
09-05-2001, 05:48 PM
Damian. When talking about Iron Palm I must say I feel as if that is what we are doing, just talking. It is usually the experience and being shown in terms of techniques and transfer to produce any understanding of explanations. This is commonly felt by myself and fellow practioners as the internal arts are not easy to put into words.

I think the methods you use will likely bring you to a proficient and even high level in iron palm, regardless of the affect of starting externally and working towards the internal. Over time, they come together, but you must for a moment take into account that there were masters of the iron palm who were 60-70 years old who no longer had the strength to slap trees and do the external practices many do. Their iron palm came from the internal side.

On the final note, you could train iron palm for 30 years but if your martial arts were weak in other respects, such as self-defense it would be like hanging to bricks from each arm while you fight, hence, being worthless to you as an aid. It is likely you need not spend countless hours training it unless you are intending on spending twice that time training your chi kung, applications, other techniques. (You may already do this, just making a note of it.)

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

dfedorko@mindspring.com
09-06-2001, 01:21 PM
Truthfully, I have never heard of the term "laogung". I am a Chen practitioner and I do a lot of Qigong and Chen silk reeling exercises. I do use the palm heart in breaking concrete and not the palm heel. Also use the hammer fist/knife hand and the back of the hand. In performing breaks I use the "Whip & Wave" theory. So you do know John Newberry. The bottom break - when you have 2 2x8x16 slabs one on top of the other. The object is to break the bottom one and leave the top slab in tact. I focus on the bottom block visualizing a happy face on the bottom of it. If you focus and use intent you will be successful. This break is the foundation of learning how to break
a particular block in a stack. I received your email and sent a reply. I believe I use Qi in all my breaks. When I did that hammerfist break my hand was only 6-8 inches above the block. I didn't use the haymaker approach using the weight of my body if you know what I mean.

Nexus - I understand you and you are correct. Practice, practice and practice with patience. You are also correct in saying that one should not rely on the Iron Palm. If a practitioner has no technique the Iron Palm is useless to the person. The Iron Palm is but a piece of the pie.

Damia

EARTH DRAGON
09-06-2001, 06:11 PM
beautiful break on the photos page! you answered my questions with the answers i was hoping for. Ive seen breaks with spacers, wood , ice, none of them impress me! what i did see was a chinese master turn his hand over and strike with the lao gung(the chinese name for the point in the center of the hand)or palm heart as you reffered anyways he broke the brike underneath and that facinated me! hew also stacked three tomatoes on top on another and struck the top one but only squished the middle one! he told us he passed his chi through the first tomato desroyed the middle one and pulled it back out before he hit the second one! that impressed me.
He also showed us a fake cocconut break but I didnt understand him, have you seen someone break a cocconut? I tried it and my hand stung!so I stopped.
do you use the same herbs as john and brain grey?
I have 5 gallons fermenting but my teachers rice wine mixture seems to be stronger, and not as sticky!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

blacktaoist
09-09-2001, 12:48 AM
There is more to Iron palm, then just one formula. (Palm liniments) The practice of forms and other internal conditioning exercises must be performed prior to striking trees or palm training. When a person practice iron palm, they are gathering ching, transforming it to ch'i and then moving it into a specific part of they body, it is extremely important to have a stable, balanced, energetic body structure before iron palm or tree striking begins. And for you guys that are talking about the Ch'i Aspects,then you guys know or should know , it is important to balance the amount of Fa chin training with chi kung exercises, such as I-Ch'uan in order to accumulate energy.
The bottom line is, a good foundation is a necessity for any iron palm practice.