Some thoughts on the myth of Southern Shaolin - for Eric Ling

[mantis108]

Hi Eric and All,

Sorry not participating much on your thread but you have so much good stuff that it takes time to just go through them one by one. Anyway, I found some of your comments interest regarding the Crane method and Southern Shaolin.


Fang did join the "Heaven & Earth" society accordingly to most accounts and the leader of that group was recorded as a "internal" expert.

I am always under the impression that Fang family originally came from Zhe Jiang, Li Shui area. Zhe Jiang is one of the location where the Ming dynasty military recuiting and training camps would be found. We know that Henan Shaolin monks used to serve amongst the Ming troops. It is possible that Fang family's Shaolin (Luohan Men) Kung Fu came from there. There is another possibility that Fang family was involved with White Lotus cult which might have militia training using Fanziquan (short strikes protocol), which is also about Luohan. Third year of the reign of Qing Emperor Shun Zhi, there is an edict to ban all cults. This could be the cause of the migration of the Fang family. They could have brided their way out of death role but got exciled instead. The Gazzettes are not very clear on what kind of criminal offence that the family committed but only that they are convicted and move to Chuan Zhou, Fujian. Later they moved to Yong Chun. It is about the time in Chuan Zhou that Fang Qiniang went to so called Jiao Lian Si (a covert White Lotus temple) that is located opposite the Zhen Guo Dong Chan Shaolin Si (built during Tang dynasty 874-879 CE), that is later distoryed in (1672 CE) During the Kang Xi reign. The destruction might have been a measure of Qing empire's struggle with the Ming loyalist resurgences based in Taiwan. They ordered residents of coast line towns, which inclues Chuan Zhou, to move inland in order to deprive the enemy (Ming loyalists) more resources to work with. It is important to bare in mind that the burning of this "Shaolin temple" is more a casuality of the struggle between the Qing empire and the Ming Loyalists. Not as pop culture has it that the Qing emperor set fire on it because of cruelty. The Qing imperial family didn't hate Buddhism in fact they embraced it.

As for the further Southern Shaolin myth, I could get into that if there is an interest.

It is believe that Jian Lian Si had martial arts training. This is the reason that later Bai Jie returned from Taiwan and landed in Yong Chun and taught "Cun Jing Jie Li" (ie Ba Fen). Is it possible that Fan Qiniang by chance met the head of Tian Di Hui (Heaven and Earth society) - Baihe Daoren Chen Jinnan (Venerable white crane) during her sojourn; hence, the creation myth of the style was born? Well, it's quite possible that certain aspect of the story changed considering it's not "proper" during the time to tell of story meeting or even fighting between a male and a female with sensitive backgrounds such as the two. So the question is did Fan Qiniang created a style out of the blue or did she rather "reformed" her fight training according to Baihe Daoren?


According to my White Crane elders, Fang's White Crane took on a relatively more "internal" characterictics in Fuzhou; this is really quite apparent if you view most of the later days' Cranes to come out of Fuzhou.

Well, I personally don't buy the external internal seperation in Kung Fu. All Kung Fu is both external and internal right from the beginning. If it's not taught that way, it's not Kung Fu period.


Yong Chun county's White Crane is much "harder" even with their emphasis on "nei gung" training and you could see much "tiger" elements embedded. Not strange if you consider the fact that she married her best student who was recorded as an expert in "tiger" boxing.

I believe it's all relative. But a lot of people like to hold onto the hard/soft thing as a selling point of an art. So... It's not a question of which is better rather it is which suits you most.


You could also see "Lohan" in many of Yong Chun White Crane techniques; again not strange, she did studied Lohan Boxing with her father.

Well, I think there isn't a Luohan style per se. I think there is a concept of Luohan. I think there is a lot of "fabricated" facts of a luohan system. I could be wrong but I haven't seen any ligit Luohan system (not just a form performing school) that has tangible fight theory and training.


In was only in Fuzhou that the "Wu xin" or "5 Elements" concept became incorporated. Where did this "5 elements" come from in the context of White Crane?

Fuzhou crane has also more of a numeric arrangement in the forms right? San Zhan (3 battles), Si Men (4 gates), Ba Bu Lian (8 step lotus), Er Shi Ba Su (28 stars constellations). This might be the remnant of Ming dynasty military training. These and the 5 elements are related toe Yijing and also widely used in the military. Military unites that are closed to the Emperor (ie personal guard) are sometimes considered "internal ranking officiers". Could this be reminiscent of military training of past dynasty? Well, some food for thoughts there IMHO.

just some thoughts

Warmest regards

Robert

[wu-ji]

Hi Mantis,

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but did you get my PM by any chance? Thanks.

[Hendrik]

Hi Eric and All,



Well, I personally don't buy the external internal seperation in Kung Fu. All Kung Fu is both external and internal right from the beginning. If it's not taught that way, it's not Kung Fu period.







What is your External what is Internal? please define otherwise we could discuss.



For me, IMHO,

In my understanding, the ancient ancestors has define them as


A, Catagory:

External or Wai Kung as the training of sinews, skin, bone.
Internal or Nei Kung as The training of Essence, Qi, and Shen, and cultivate the Mai.

External kung could be seen explicitly while practice and execute
Internal Kung is subtle while practice and execute.


External kung using the Yee to mamual the physical body direct.
Internal Kung using the Yee to lead the Qi to transport the physical body.

External Kung needs as much coverage as possible on all cases.
Internal Kung is about Dao mimic nature or return to the origin or let go let the nature take its path.



IMHO, until we define these clearly we could discuss. and most dont even know they are doing Wai Kung but keep thinking they are doing internal art which they are not.



B, Training Process:


External Training :
via physical strenght drill so that each part of the body is covered and the muscle all got warm up and drill.



Internal Training :
via fine tune the Mind, Breathing, and Body with the key of Relax, Quiet, and Nature.
or in today's term the consciousnees needs to get into alter state and the breathing and body needs to be in the state of resonance.

Movements has to be similar to snake slide or the wave washing the shore with ease. Until the Dan Dien heat up, and/or the body naturally resonance, then one has enter the gate of the training. and the journey started.



C, body handling


External :


Tensing to move or manifest force.
via Local muscle
or Full body muscle



Internal:

Yee issuing

Let Go loosen up muscle when issuing Jing or move according to the resonance track of Qi Mai.

[mantis108]

Hi Mantis,

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but did you get my PM by any chance? Thanks.

Thank you for reminding me to check my PM. I will share some thoughts concerning your PM here also. Please feel free to contact me at sifu1@internorth.com as well.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[mantis108]

What is your External what is Internal? please define otherwise we could discuss.

I have stated that to me that is no such a thing as External or Internal when it comes to martial arts training. That distinction IMHO is arbitrarily done to market certain arts a certain way. Also this is primarily done for people who have an archetypically binary inclined mind (ie those Neo Confusciusm school educated kind). Life is in no way binary (black or white so to speak). There are many shades of gray in between. To call one art internal and another external is to muddle the water and to make someone sounds intelligent when in fact that person might not even know what the bleep is going on.


For me, IMHO,

In my understanding, the ancient ancestors has define them as

You are entitled to your opinion, my friend. :)


A, Catagory:

External or Wai Kung as the training of sinews, skin, bone.
Internal or Nei Kung as The training of Essence, Qi, and Shen, and cultivate the Mai.

To you and many other people, sinews, skin and bones are inanimated matters, therefore you call them external. It is the Essence, Qi and Shen (so called internal elements - energy) that animate these matters. Well, I don't see sinews, skin, and bones as matters. There are rather sheaths (energy expressions) or another end of the meridian spectrum. It is a unity not 2 seeming unrelated and uncommon components that are slammed together by whatever invisible force (ie G_D).


External kung could be seen explicitly while practice and execute
Internal Kung is subtle while practice and execute.

If this is true, the sickly looking guy will always feel and look sickly and the strong guy will always look and feel strong. Guess what? This is the reason that athleticism is discriminated against in the practice of most Kung Fu unfortunately. The practice of Kung Fu is about change/metamorphsis. The weak will become strong albeit struggling and the strong will become honed and resillient.


External kung using the Yee to mamual the physical body direct.
Internal Kung using the Yee to lead the Qi to transport the physical body.

If you examin your statements here, you will find either the redundancy of Qi or a misunderstanding of the whole external and internal concepts. If I was to punch some one or grab a cup of tea, all I have to do is just to do it. Why bother so much with the darn Qi? It's just doesn't make sense. It certainly doesn't convince me that the tea taste any better if I use Qi to move my hands to grab the cup and then to drink it. To a person with lots of time on hand, tea ceremony is cool and all. But to a thirsty person, it make no freak'n difference, right? Tea is tea. If you are in a life and death situation, minding that Qi might just the thing that's going to get you kill!


External Kung needs as much coverage as possible on all cases.
Internal Kung is about Dao mimic nature or return to the origin or let go let the nature take its path.

Well, I am not much of a internal kung man but I do remember reading Zhuang Zi that Dao is in the pooh as well. If pooh can be sacret, well then why treat your phiscally body any differently?


IMHO, until we define these clearly we could discuss. and most dont even know they are doing Wai Kung but keep thinking they are doing internal art which they are not.

Surely, going through the motion won't make a person attain high level of Kung Fu. In fact, we could say that his not doing Kung Fu at all. But it doesn't mean that he's doesn't have "internal" energy. Take a child for example, if a child don't want (his Yi/intention) you to pick him up, he will become very heavy just by the sheer not wanting and hard for you to pick him up. The child already know Qi and how to use it. It's natural. We all have it. Kung Fu is simply to recognize and refine this "process" so that it will benefit us at all times that's all. There's nothing secret or mysterious about it.


B, Training Process:


External Training :
via physical strenght drill so that each part of the body is covered and the muscle all got warm up and drill.

Well, if the brain (mind) don't fire the signal, the body won't move a certain way right? If the wiring of the body is disrupted, the brain signal can't reach the targeted muscle and we simply can't move. So mind, albeit not paying full attention, is involve anytime we are in motion.


Internal Training :
via fine tune the Mind, Breathing, and Body with the key of Relax, Quiet, and Nature.
or in today's term the consciousnees needs to get into alter state and the breathing and body needs to be in the state of resonance.

It's fine if you prefer that but it sounds over analysize IMHO for no good reason. It's one thing to said to be mindful at all times and it's quite another to dish out a whole wack of "internal theory and training" IMHO.


Movements has to be similar to snake slide or the wave washing the shore with ease. Until the Dan Dien heat up, and/or the body naturally resonance, then one has enter the gate of the training. and the journey started.

Now you are going back to the physcial movement (snake silde or wave) to warm up the dan tian. So my question is then is it the mind that warm ups up the dan tian or is the body that warms up the dan tian in this case? Why is snaking or waving more internal than say going straight? That again is arbitrary IMHO. I understand "Shen Qi Gui Yuan" (Kidney Qi returns to origin) is about these snaking or waving motion. As long as there is motion involve you can all something internal or external because they are one and the same. Just my take.


C, body handling


External :

Tensing to move or manifest force.
via Local muscle
or Full body muscle

Internal:

Yee issuing

Let Go loosen up muscle when issuing Jing or move according to the resonance track of Qi Mai.

Well, I think this understanding comes about because of a lack of understanding of the concept of Gang Rou (rigidity and fluidity) and the human anatomy. Anyway, you might want to further study that other than relying solely on what your teachers say. I am not saying that they are wrong or anything like that but I think there might be some misinterpretation somewhere along the line. Just a thought.

I realize you might not like what I said but it's how I see things and I believe you would rather have my honest opinion on the subject so...

Regards

Mantis108

[Hendrik]

Mantis,

Great comments and Appreciated your sharing !


Say as much as you could and it is repected and appreciated.

As I like or not, if what you said fit what it is then what to not like?
if what you said has nothing to do with what it is then what to not like about?
You see, what it is matter, words are just tool for communcation.

Thanks for sharing.




However, could you please share what is instead of what it is not?
See, similar to buying a car, if we say we are buying a BMW then we all know it is BMW.

However,
if we say, it is not honda, it is not yugo, it is not ford..... we dont know what it is right?



So, please share what is your Internal or external is like.

Or if you dont think that is an internal or external then please share in detail how your system is like.


otherwise we dont know what you refer to.







if I may comment a little,
the more I read your comments the more It remind me about Sound.


As it said in the Zen stanza of Tang dynasty.

Frequenly, I wisper the name Siau Yue ( a female name such as Mary or Jane..) but there is nothing urgent.

I just hope Some one recognized the Sound.

or

as it also said,

That Romance while I was young,
Only my love mate will know.



See, there is a different between thinking or theorities compare with get into the state and describe what it is there.


Who knows the sound? the World is getting lonely without those who knows the music.

I love the following song. hahaha


(spoken)
windflowers

windflowers, my father told me not to go near them
he said he feared them always and he told me that they carried him away

windflowers, beautiful windflowers, i couldn't wait to touch them
to smell them i held them closely and now i cant break away

their sweet boutque disappears like the vapor in the desert
so...take them away son.....

windflowers....ancient windflowers their beauty captures every
young dreamer who lingered near them
ancient windflowers i love you

(sung)
windflowers
my father told me not to
go near them
he feared them always
said they carried him away

windflowers
i couldn't wait to touch them
to smell them
i held them closely
now i cannot break away

their sweet boutque disappears
like the vapor in the desert
make a whining sound

windflowers
their beauty captures every
young dreamer
who lingered near them
ancient windflowers i love you






Best Regards
Hendrik

[Yum Cha]

I always feel so insignificant in such well informed company as this, but perhaps I have something I can add.

This issue of internal and external is arbitrary from my point of view, a point of view I share with Mantis. I take it more as a philosophical question.

We humans, with our minds and our bodies struggle to make sense of the vastness of our experience by building relationships and logical constructs.

Likewise we have the duality of the our experiences - sometimes classified as the Animal and the Intellectual.

Letting go of this need to organise and classify is part of the the pursuit of the Way. In being we are. Understanding that we are is different to understanding why we are.

So from that perspective, to my mind, internal and external are the same, simply a reflection of your development in the process, your awareness and your sensitivity to your self.

BUT, how do you teach these skills? Sometimes to guide someone along the path of their own personal development, you have to use methods that will become superceded as soon as they are understood. The great divide is between the physical and intellectual, but even that divide can be crossed if that is who you are.

Cheers

[Eric Ling]

Hi everybody,

Yes it's very easy to feel small in this company..

Robert is the kind of CKF scholar who sends chills down my spine...

And to read my name in the same sentence with "myth of Southern Shaolin" is sending even more chills.

Got a plane to catch in a while and I will keep this short but I'll be back.

But before I go, let me just say that the great divide between believers and non-believers of Shaolin, Northern or Southern, internal and external methodologies will always be there.

Let's agree to disagree please...

And Robert, when are you going to accept my invitation to come to Kuching this September?

Give me a chance to "chill" you out with some Carlsbergs....:D :D :D

Warmest Regards.

Eric

[mantis108]

Mantis,

Great comments and Appreciated your sharing !


Say as much as you could and it is repected and appreciated.

As I like or not, if what you said fit what it is then what to not like?
if what you said has nothing to do with what it is then what to not like about?
You see, what it is matter, words are just tool for communcation.

Thanks for sharing.

You are most welcome. I am glad you understand where I am coming from.


However, could you please share what is instead of what it is not?
See, similar to buying a car, if we say we are buying a BMW then we all know it is BMW.

However,
if we say, it is not honda, it is not yugo, it is not ford..... we dont know what it is right?

The brand name is not important. So what if you have a BMW or a hummer for that matter, yet we can't afford to buy the insurance, put gas and/or pay for the maintainence? It causes us non due stresses. On the other hand, if a yugo is affordable within our budget, why not get a yugo. Better yet why not walk? No. 11 bus is great for the environment; therefore, better Karma for us all, no?


So, please share what is your Internal or external is like.

Or if you dont think that is an internal or external then please share in detail how your system is like.


otherwise we dont know what you refer to.

Kung Fu is about the mind-body continuum. We are essentially and fundamentally working on the mind-body continuum at all times. Take the horse stance for example. It is the very first thing that nearly all Kung Fu systems would have the student to practice. Why? It's not because the Sifu want to torture the student. It's because the horse stance, when done properly, is to activate the Gull Bladder meridian. As the same time it allows the student to observes the quality of breath Of course this take guidence, effort and time; hence, the term kung fu. Also, the physical benefit is the muscles (relates to the liver) toning. Liver (inner) and Gull bladder(half in and half out) are companions. So you see it's all related whether people recognize it or not it's a different issue. The horse stance builds the student form within to without. One becomes strong not just quantitively but also qualititively. The whole mind-body continuum benefits as the whole spectrum got exercised. That in turn effects a change in us and this change is noticable by those around us.

If we understand that the 8 vassals (or extra meridians) and 12 meridians (all organs are connected with these and the organs are houses of our subtle elements such as Qi) are essentially involved at all times as long as we are living, we simply shouldn't or couldn't seperate the mind-body continuum into external and internal. People who advocate that simply don't have any real knowledge on human anatomy from an ancient scientific perspective IMHO.

This IMHO has to be fully understood before we can even move on to talking about the popular 6 harmonies concept; otherwise, we will get the hang ups of internal and external again. I will share further if there is interest about this.

Hi Yum Cha,

Thank you for your kind words and input. Please feel free to comment. :)
Warm regards

Mantis108

[mantis108]

Hi everybody,

Yes it's very easy to feel small in this company..

Robert is the kind of CKF scholar who sends chills down my spine...

And to read my name in the same sentence with "myth of Southern Shaolin" is sending even more chills.

Well, I am the one that feel small all the time when I see the magnitude of your work. BTW, thank you for sharing the Northern Mantis in Malaysia. It's a board member, Mantiscool, school. He's has been very kind in sharing his material with me also. But I have not see your clip of them before. As for the myth, it's an alternate perspective that I have come across. One that I find research has been done (or so it seems) and it does IMHO give some credits to the connection of Southern Shaolin and underground society such as Tiandihui.


Got a plane to catch in a while and I will keep this short but I'll be back.

But before I go, let me just say that the great divide between believers and non-believers of Shaolin, Northern or Southern, internal and external methodologies will always be there.

Let's agree to disagree please...

look forward to hear more from you. And I will put the southern shaolin myth story up soon as well. So stay tunned, my friend.


And Robert, when are you going to accept my invitation to come to Kuching this September?

Well, I have been trying to secure my cousin who used to work with me up here before to help me out during that time. But she has private business to take care of in HK and it doesn't look like she can return on time. I am still very interested to come but I really can't promise you at this point (unless I sort out the human resources problem). :( I will email in due course to give you my decision. Please forgive me for taking this long. I very much appreciate and am grateful of the oppotunity and the honor of the invitation.


Give me a chance to "chill" you out with some Carlsbergs....:D :D :D

Warmest Regards.

Eric

Well, I would love to chill and hang with you anytime, my friend. :D

Sincerely,

Robert

[Yum Cha]

Mantis,
I like that, the mind body continum.

Its always nice to read you.

Cheers

[The Xia]

But before I go, let me just say that the great divide between believers and non-believers of Shaolin, Northern or Southern, internal and external methodologies will always be there.
What do you mean by "divide"? I was a surprised seeing this posted by someone who showcases the wonderful diversity in the martial arts. Of course I could be interpreting this comment wrong. :)

[Hendrik]

Kung Fu is about the mind-body continuum. We are essentially and fundamentally working on the mind-body continuum at all times. Take the horse stance for example. It is the very first thing that nearly all Kung Fu systems would have the student to practice. Why? It's not because the Sifu want to torture the student. It's because the horse stance, when done properly, is to activate the Gull Bladder meridian. As the same time it allows the student to observes the quality of breath Of course this take guidence, effort and time; hence, the term kung fu. Also, the physical benefit is the muscles (relates to the liver) toning. Liver (inner) and Gull bladder(half in and half out) are companions. So you see it's all related whether people recognize it or not it's a different issue. The horse stance builds the student form within to without. One becomes strong not just quantitively but also qualititively. The whole mind-body continuum benefits as the whole spectrum got exercised. That in turn effects a change in us and this change is noticable by those around us.



mind-body continuum is certainly an excellent one!

however, there are more layers to travel into, it is just a beginning. IMHHHO.





however, the rest of the description remind me about
typical case of having great idea but no technology to attain type of case.

and also
it is a case
in Chinese mandarin which is also called "To Fa lien Kang" or using the village way trying to purify steel. It cant be done effective or properly.

Take a poll, how many standing in horse stand and could attain advance kung fu? and how come Horse Stand standing is no longer practice much these days?



Gull Bladder meridian if is not activate, the person would not be able to stand or even sit. So, I dont buy it about the activation idea.



IMHO,

may be I am wrong, however, until one could clearly describe out what is the activation of the Gull Bladder meridian, how to do it and how do one know it is active. and what is "when done properly". Then, it is wishfull thinking.


if one intend to strengthening the flow of Gull Bladder medirian, doing bending kiss the feet legs streching (people with high blood pressure dont do this kiss streching ) or front push kick (gradually from low to mid to high and mid and back to low ) and exhale (people with high blood pressure can do this one, yes, exhale when kick, the qi in the gull bladder medirian travel from head down to feet.)

these will be an excellent technics compare with of standing in horse stance which is often block out even more because one doesnt know the key of how to place one's weight.

and if one is not telling other how one place one's weight, explicitly one will not be able to tell much. that is internal training. see, even in chinese character, the cultivating of Qi or cultivation of body are different word.










If we understand that the 8 vassals (or extra meridians) and 12 meridians (all organs are connected with these and the organs are houses of our subtle elements such as Qi) are essentially involved at all times as long as we are living, we simply shouldn't or couldn't seperate the mind-body continuum into external and internal.

People who advocate that simply don't have any real knowledge on human anatomy from an ancient scientific perspective IMHO.


IMHO

Could it possible or slight chance that you might be having a different type of training and experience compare with those who could get into the state and know what is the internal art the chinese ancestor is refer to?

IMHO, from you post, it seems that you dont describe the different characteristics of using Thinking and Awareness and that is a signature which I am looking for but it is not there.

furthermore, aslo, the signature of before speaking about medirians, one MUST restore the diaphram ability to a degree via breath work. Yup, this has to be train seperately....

Those I dont find in your post.

but as usual,
I am sure could be the one who dont know what I am talking about. That is a big possibility.







This IMHO has to be fully understood before we can even move on to talking about the popular 6 harmonies concept; otherwise, we will get the hang ups of internal and external again. I will share further if there is interest about this.


IMHO,
6 harmonies concept is excellent.

However, if we dont Know what is the different between thinking and Knowing. or in today's term, get into Alfa wave at will, then how good is the understanding via mind speculation which is a different domain compare with Knowing.


Thus, I have heard.
if one's dont know how to switch off the thinking and using Awareness, and keep mind quite while the Yee is on focus for more then 5 mins, The Yee lead Qi, Qi transport the body will not surface. Thus, one will not be able to describ and appreciate about the internal training. because one simple dont know what is it.


ask the question, could one's cultivation in kung fu is done when Fa Kung (activate the Kung) is such as without thinking, one let go and one enter into the alter state which perform well without thinking or using the mind to manage--- this has to do this and that has to do that? if not then one dont have it. and one's traning will not work right in the time of application because the mind doesnt response well with a mind that is full of processing. as in one could not enter into Alfa wave state with all type of busy beta wave. Yes, one could hook one up with eeg machine and monitor this. Thus I have heard.

Just some opinion, and as usual, I could be totally wrong. however if I am right, then one could use modern equipment to detect and lead one into entering the internal training in a better clarity way.





I am sorry if I talk straight with little diplomatic and get you or others mad.

for life is short, some couldnt even activate thier ren and du vessals for a life time of training disregard of talk theory about Traditional chinese medicine or mind speculation. That is sad because with proper technology one could activate and enter into the gate of internal training within 3 weeks not 30 years. This jewel part of Chinese ancient teaching needs to be preserved and grow. But one needs to be able to enter into the state at will before anything.


similar to one who has visited NYC they know how NYC is like and there is no reason why NYC is like that and one cant reason why NYC is like that. it is about Know NYC and not logical thinking about How NYC suppose to be like according to oneself.

So, whoever has been in NYC actually could scan, read, and Know who have being there in a conversation because there are signatures could be traced. That is the beauty of Chinese internal art.

One who is in NYC could describ the details of how NYC is and there need not be logic. One who always need to logically speculate or thinking with mind about NYC without being there will not be able to do that.



IMHO, it is not about philosophical. it is a real deal of could one enter into the state or Chin Cie in madarin. Could one do it?


Again, what I am posting is about NeiGong and Waigong, not about Neijia and Waijia. Those are different subject.

Yes, Neigong exist and one needs a sifu to lead one into. reading book doesnt help much.


Peace

[Eric Ling]

Hi everybody,

Xia, there is nothing to interpret really; I’m saying it the way it is.

These past years I have met up with many CKF veterans from many different sects and frankly this “divide” is pretty prominent.

I know what I know through the teachings of my teachers and my own investigations and again I got to say that it’s not all black and white.

So, as much as I don’t like “divides”, I just got to accept that it’s there.

Maybe this is what Bruce Lee meant when he said “classical mess”?

Personally, I love to hear different views from different folks.

Or like they say in Zen, it takes all sorts of trees to make a forest.

Hmmm, maybe that’s why ancient Masters refer to CKF as “Martial Forest”….

Warmest Regards.

Eric

[mantis108]

mind-body continuum is certainly an excellent one!

however, there are more layers to travel into, it is just a beginning. IMHHHO.

Thanks and of course there are more layers.


however, the rest of the description remind me about
typical case of having great idea but no technology to attain type of case.

and also
it is a case
in Chinese mandarin which is also called "To Fa lien Kang" or using the village way trying to purify steel. It cant be done effective or properly.

Take a poll, how many standing in horse stand and could attain advance kung fu? and how come Horse Stand standing is no longer practice much these days?

Hendrik, neither I or anybody else can be responsible for the trend that is happening in teaching MA. Ever since the advent of JKD, the gate has been swung wild open. There are countless "new methodologies" and "new theories" almost everyday! Every aspiring Kung Fu master have something new, something exciting for general consumption. If they have no faith in traditional knowledge, what can I say. I can only do what I can and do what I know best. I have heard from mystics as well as talked to my mentor in sufism who explain that really there need not be any more new methodologies and such. Even my favor authors such as Karen Armstrong seems to suggest that since the Axial Age (c. 800 to 200 BCE) there isn't really anything new in the spiritual disciplines. Most everything are recycled stuff these days. BTW I am a fan of Krishnamuytti (sp?). Superstitions can come in many forms incoming obsession with science and technology. ;) While western science and technology are great, it is also looking outwards instead of looking inwards for the meaning of life. This search while is helpful can lead to greed and all kinds of suffering (nothing wrong with that if that's a chosen path for you.) But remember that doesn't make you any better or any worst for that matter. Certainly that doesn't give you the power to "judge" (not that I believe you are doing here). ;) So if I am "aware" that I am alone and I have faith and courage in what I do, it's not anyone else business how I approach thing. Now that's martial democracy if you ask me. My life and my body is my responsibility. While it is not an issue of ownship, the "I" within is still responsible for it. For that I need faith and courage. And courage as energy signautre, my friend, is expressed by the function of Dan (gall bladder).


Gull Bladder meridian if is not activate, the person would not be able to stand or even sit. So, I dont buy it about the activation idea.

GBM flows naturally for sure but it's doesn't mean that it's activated to work the way (the martial way) that we wanted it to be. How can the GBM benefit us in the martial path? That's the question. For this we need to understand the "Kuai Jue" (ruler and compass - rules and regualtions) or principles. This knowledge is what the teachers can instill in the student. It's not my job to teach and I don't owe it to anyone to do it here. Go to the teacher. Find one that is knowledgeable if need be.


IMHO,

may be I am wrong, however, until one could clearly describe out what is the activation of the Gull Bladder meridian, how to do it and how do one know it is active. and what is "when done properly". Then, it is wishfull thinking.

So I am going to tell you the freak'n number one secret of all time. This is taught to me on the very first day by my first Sifu, the late Chow Fook. Actually, it's the second thing that he taught me. The first thing is run like hell. Now this secret is so powerful that all true Southern Shaolin related arts are doing it and holding it in high esteem. It's so sacret that they even named a mythical nun after it. Yes, you guessed it. Grid with the toes! Wu Dian Jin luo Di (five point metals touch the ground) or simply called Wu Mei. Well, actually you would need to have the feet parallel to reap the benefit as well. The power of the crane system is in the crane's feet. That alone is some food for thoughts, my friend. See, the supposed secret is no more than a little detail that we need to pay attention to that's all.


if one intend to strengthening the flow of Gull Bladder medirian, doing bending kiss the feet legs streching (people with high blood pressure dont do this kiss streching ) or front push kick (gradually from low to mid to high and mid and back to low ) and exhale (people with high blood pressure can do this one, yes, exhale when kick, the qi in the gull bladder medirian travel from head down to feet.)

Technically, We can not strengthen anything. BTW, strong or weak is a state of mind and is relative, if you haven't notice it yet. We can merely effect or rather encourage a change by observing the pricinples as nature intended. What you suggest is interesting but how does this relates to mindfulness that you seemed to be advocating all the time? When I am standing in a horse stance or goat capturing stance for that matter, I grid with my toes (with intent and essentially taking up the all the slacks in conjunction with other techniques) and I observe the quality of my breath and the flow of Qi is attained. The change of the mind-body continuum happens naturally. We can be no more effective than the farmer who attends to his crops by irregating, fertilizing, or pesticiding. The mind-body continuum grows as it is willing to grow.


these will be an excellent technics compare with of standing in horse stance which is often block out even more because one doesnt know the key of how to place one's weight.

Is it? You are definitely entitle to your opinion. :)


and if one is not telling other how one place one's weight, explicitly one will not be able to tell much. that is internal training. see, even in chinese character, the cultivating of Qi or cultivation of body are different word.

Well, I don't see how this relates to the exercise as you shared and the issue of cultivating Qi with weight distribution. May be you would elaborate?

To be continued...



[

[mantis108]

Continued ...


IMHO

Could it possible or slight chance that you might be having a different type of training and experience compare with those who could get into the state and know what is the internal art the chinese ancestor is refer to?

It's entirely possible. But what does that have to do with where I am coming from. The truth is the truth (I don't imply that I represents the truth). Water boilds at 100 degrees and it freezes at 0 degree whether it is China or in America. It doesn't matter. You breath and move the same way as I as long as you are human. Language is just an illusion and another obstacle for truth that's all.


IMHO, from you post, it seems that you dont describe the different characteristics of using Thinking and Awareness and that is a signature which I am looking for but it is not there.

Look Hendrik, rhetorics and dialectis are but beautiful words. They don't worth a grand of salt if there is no truth in what someone said. The choice of word may only made what I said sound intelligent but won't change the fact that it's hollow. Likewise if the message within is beautiful, I don't need to embroil in with anything. That is for the audience to find out. Don't believe in what I said. Go find out if what I said is horse dung or not. If it is, well, I deserves the dung slinging back at me.


furthermore, aslo, the signature of before speaking about medirians, one MUST restore the diaphram ability to a degree via breath work. Yup, this has to be train seperately....

Those I dont find in your post.

Since this is what you propose, it is your option to clarify this statement If you wish to bring the "restore diaphram ability to a degree via breath work". I don't see that as a pressing issue to deal with at this point of discussion. One thing at a time, my friend.


but as usual,
I am sure could be the one who dont know what I am talking about. That is a big possibility.

Well, in truth I am not a worm in your bowel. So I wouldn't know a thing about what you think at all. In fact, I don't claim I know anything. I just share what I have come across in my study. For sure there are plenty of people who are knowledge and laughing at a loud mouth optimists in forum discussions. But hey I love keyboard sparring just as much as sparring and rolling with my friends and students.


IMHO,
6 harmonies concept is excellent.

That is at least one thing that we can agree on. :)


However, if we dont Know what is the different between thinking and Knowing. or in today's term, get into Alfa wave at will, then how good is the understanding via mind speculation which is a different domain compare with Knowing.

Well, your guess is just as good as mine. I don't live in an environment that I need to deal with the scientific inclined minds. And I don't need to collect jargons, albeit unintentionally I have gathered and use quite a few of them, to live my life or teach what I know. It's okay to not know, my friend. You might want to try that sometimes, it's rather fun. ;)


Thus, I have heard.
if one's dont know how to switch off the thinking and using Awareness, and keep mind quite while the Yee is on focus for more then 5 mins, The Yee lead Qi, Qi transport the body will not surface. Thus, one will not be able to describ and appreciate about the internal training. because one simple dont know what is it.

Okay, thanks for sharing. But that's meditation 101. So what's your point really?


ask the question, could one's cultivation in kung fu is done when Fa Kung (activate the Kung) is such as without thinking, one let go and one enter into the alter state which perform well without thinking or using the mind to manage--- this has to do this and that has to do that? if not then one dont have it. and one's traning will not work right in the time of application because the mind doesnt response well with a mind that is full of processing. as in one could not enter into Alfa wave state with all type of busy beta wave. Yes, one could hook one up with eeg machine and monitor this. Thus I have heard.

Urrrrrr..... every fighter understand the Zone as every Qigong Shi (a lot of phoneys watch out!) knows what you describe as the altered state. There is nothing to it. Business is business. Again, I don't see the point of over analysizing something elementary and foundamental as this.


Just some opinion, and as usual, I could be totally wrong. however if I am right, then one could use modern equipment to detect and lead one into entering the internal training in a better clarity way.

You have your ways of dealing with issue that are important to you and I have mind. There is no need for a dominant one or the right one. It's all good. Kung Fu isn't a competition. Kung Fu is life whether you want to live it to the fullest, well, that's up to you.


I am sorry if I talk straight with little diplomatic and get you or others mad.

We are just talking and having conversation. That's good.


for life is short, some couldnt even activate thier ren and du vessals for a life time of training disregard of talk theory about Traditional chinese medicine or mind speculation. That is sad because with proper technology one could activate and enter into the gate of internal training within 3 weeks not 30 years. This jewel part of Chinese ancient teaching needs to be preserved and grow. But one needs to be able to enter into the state at will before anything.

Well, if you talk to the mystics, ultimately the mind-body continuum is but Maya or illusion. When in meditation, non of the stuff that we taught about is important. So let it go.


similar to one who has visited NYC they know how NYC is like and there is no reason why NYC is like that and one cant reason why NYC is like that. it is about Know NYC and not logical thinking about How NYC suppose to be like according to oneself.

So, whoever has been in NYC actually could scan, read, and Know who have being there in a conversation because there are signatures could be traced. That is the beauty of Chinese internal art.

One who is in NYC could describ the details of how NYC is and there need not be logic. One who always need to logically speculate or thinking with mind about NYC without being there will not be able to do that.

Well, if that kind of science is your thing by all means. May I simply say that it makes not particular difference to an unflutter mind (an enlightened mind). Do you think that it makes a difference to the Big Guy up there if highschool A's B-ball team in NYC wins over highschool B's team while both of them pray to Him for the same favor? It's just a child's game.


IMHO, it is not about philosophical. it is a real deal of could one enter into the state or Chin Cie in madarin. Could one do it?

Again, what I am posting is about NeiGong and Waigong, not about Neijia and Waijia. Those are different subject.

Yes, Neigong exist and one needs a sifu to lead one into. reading book doesnt help much.


Peace

Okay, if you say so.... :). I just want to say that there are myriad of ways to enlightenment. It's great that you find one that works well for you. Sure we may not know what your "state" is, but please don't assume that everyone else are dumb and blind to the light. In fact you might find that the light you see in front of you might just be another blind fold. So...

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Hendrik]

Well, your guess is just as good as mine. I don't live in an environment that I need to deal with the scientific inclined minds. And I don't need to collect jargons, albeit unintentionally I have gathered and use quite a few of them, to live my life or teach what I know. It's okay to not know, my friend. You might want to try that sometimes, it's rather fun.





Well, if you talk to the mystics, ultimately the mind-body continuum is but Maya or illusion. When in meditation, non of the stuff that we taught about is important. So let it go.




Warm regards

Mantis108


IMHHHHO


1, I dont guess I monitor and measure with machine. could one's training switch state or not. it is clear.




2,
It is certainly not about mystics but Technology and Process to make things happen.

It is not Maya or Illusion it is Real and it is a part the Nature.

When in meditation everything is important because one has access to more dimension.





Finally,

Why the traditional teaching of standing in horse is no longer appreciated?

Simple, because most cant deliver disregards of with all the talk and preaching and big title or lots of mind spining theory. IMHO.


The ancient said " quiet the mind and use Yee" . until one could quiet one's mind, one didnt enter into the realm of internal training at all. that simple but very difficult because we in this generation have a hard time of knowing what is mind, not to mention how to turn it off.

peace

[Eric Ling]

Gentlemen, gentlemen …..

This discussion is getting soooo deeeep that I am having a hard time following ….:eek: .

See I told you I am a poor student.

So pardon me if I just stay in the wings and try to understand what’s going on first.

And where is my dictionary …..:D

Warmest Regards.

Eric

:) :) :)

[Shaolin Master]

I would have to agree that this age old internal/external North/South type of conversation is a road with no end. Those with different exposures would find that there is no clear segregation and that all roads lead to the way. Others with dedication in the heart would submit the one path which also leads to the way. In the end everyone is obtaining the same some maybe clearer others maybe diverse yet all if dedicated and directed correctly shall succeed.

The nature which one has defined can no longer be the nature that is for the nature should be changing thus it is not to be defined as much as lived.

Same with all the internal/meditative philosphizing is really simple metaphoric debate where again there are many methods and again all lead to the same way. The best method is to be any state in any condition at any time at will only then is one free ...this also means letting go of ideals that one is so attached to.

Everyone has a lot to learn from each other, where there are differences analyse then accept and move on so there is more to learn as opposed to a stagnation :)

Regards,
Wu Chanlong

[Hendrik]

I would have to agree that this age old internal/external North/South type of conversation is a road with no end. Those with different exposures would find that there is no clear segregation and that all roads lead to the way. Regards,


Wu Chanlong



I totally dis agree big time.

Why?

Until all these basic definiton and criterions are clear and we have the technology to manifest it at will.


There is no reality but all philosophical individual mind speculation which is your guess is as good as my guess, however, close to non could make anything work in full.


Now with the biofeedback machine we could monitor and could know what work or what not work.

A big part of verification and bridging from the ancient Chinese Internal art to the modern science mapping were done by master similar to Dr. Chow Cien Chuan of Emei 12 Zhuang, Dr. Ma Li-Dang the pioneer of the six healing sound and others who decicate thier life in helping to preserve and modernized the chinese traditional art.


So, we do have platform to stand on if we would like to do research and face the reality.


But, IMHO, I found lots of so called martial artists today have no idea about even the basic of going internal starting how to do To Na or diaphramatic breathing, how to do quiet mind use yee, and finally no where close to know how to use Yee to lead Qi.

without the knowing or handling of the To Na and Quiet mind, one's Kung fu is as said in SEA "Limited Company" it might work when one is young strong and fast, or when one use brute force, or when one is bullying weaker people, or when one is using trick, or when one is born with stronger faster in one's physical.

But those are not internal cultivation is about. internal cultivation is about making the weak strong. making the in-edequate full. making the broken complete again. making the sick healty.



Again, this is not thier fault but due to the condition of China changing for the past 150 years, most people lost thier basic chinese traditional mind set and practice while trying to import western mind set. NOthing good or bad it is just if one intend to go internal then one needs to know the Chinese mind set to detail to know what is happening. Cant mix and match some superficial chinese knowlegde with western speculation or reasoning logic to get things work. for in the domain of internal art it has is own logic and that logic might not be the logic we even could dream about if we dont investigate deep.


Due to these type of educational dis-efficiency. Chinese martial art suffer.

So, either we face the issue straight or we could continous of pretend we know and pad on each others back to give face to each other but go no where , or using the brute force method and keep threatning others that " I could beat you so you shut up." the ancestors art is keep draining and damaging if we dont realized what we are doing.

Furthermore, I am not impressed lately on some (not all) who is doing research in WCK history because they have no idea what so ever about internal cultivation but thinking learning this set from this name brand and that posture ... is internal which make them pioneer. In reality, take a look, how many in this world is doing Taiji or meditation or standing post, and how many will pass the test if they were plug into the EEG or HRV machine to see if they could actually make a different in thier body-mind and how much.



In Chinese we says, the loyar words is reversing the ear. the proper medicine taste bitter. Do we ready to face our issue in our own lineage once for all and set the next generation free? That is the question we all has to face.


Just some opinion.

[Shaolin Master]

This is become a little funny and a little ignorant as you are assuming that no one understands the basics of martial arts.

The problem lies not on needing to understand internal cultivation and development it is that you assume that the only way is that which you have understood.

In my "limited" experience I have had a few little opportunities to study with various teachers/masters......and as an example:

When I first commenced the study of Zimenquan with Master Mao Yimin, the fist thing was wuji zhanzhuang. The key was stuctural alignment in that instance, which was essential because as soon as it was aligned then there was no waiting nor development period, rather one would feel the difference (qi to some) immediately, the development or cultivation then commenced, after a few months of this practice then the Liangyi Zhanzhuang was explained, this was now completely different and the intention, breath, cycle changed once again. This structure however did not seem natural but this was the commencement of true development, the first made sense in cultivating internal but much I would discover that the second laid the martial foundation. Had I not continued the second would seem estranged but in fact was the development key.

Many years before however when practicing Chuojiao, the Zhanzhuang had a different purpose and the intention differed, with a wave/fan dantian approach to the internal breath or qi, however it was ideal for the intended outcome.

Yet again when meeting my grandfather (wife's side) Master Yu, a 89 year old qigong practitioner (Xiinyi Liuhe and other Neijiaquan in his young years), his methods had a whole series of knocking, rubbing and massaging various points in combination with practice and this allows the amazing power that he has.

etc... different but same...thus there is no right definition only right cultivation and practice for the purpose and in accordance with the method laid down by our ancestors.

Lastly, some martial arts were simply 'brute' and have done well as such, again that is their purpose.

If your context is WCK (Which I also am not a practitioner of), then I am unsure but given the popularity it is bound to have greater error in transmission, thus your point holds true. In the greater context unfortunately it cannot be summated by your single experience (nor your teacher's or any others).

Oh, please do not continue with the very naive rant about china losing tradition, many of my teachers are from the mainland (Others are from Nanyang) and there is no way that they have a lack of tradition skill or internal cultivation. Yes on the onset China is modernising, so has most of the world but in the same manner there will always be the traditionalists and the modern traditionalists (i.e. the development traditionalist).

Lastly, having been a Research chemist in the past and entrenched with the scientific method, I am always for the testing of such via whatever safe means to have further understanding and correction of internal cultivation, noting that this is continuously done in China and around the world with many extraordinary results (some real some not), yet the explanation is almost always left onto tradition.

Even in Australia they are realising that all the scientific methods and ideal training or sport method has not necessarily developed more capable athletes, because in the past some people did things in a way particular to themselves, yet these methods were suited to themselves, thus there is an aspect of individual nature which is a variable in every equation.

The want of sicentific measurement to validate tradition is however an interesting irony. Traditional Masters measure results by outcomes be it combat effectiveness or health or mind etc not necessarily by a machine.

Thanks
Wu Chanlong

[Hendrik]

This is become a little funny and a little ignorant as you are assuming that no one understands the basics of martial arts.

The problem lies not on needing to understand internal cultivation and development it is that you assume that the only way is that which you have understood.

In my "limited" experience I have had a few little opportunities to study with various teachers/masters......and as an example:

When I first commenced the study of Zimenquan with Master Mao Yimin, the fist thing was wuji zhanzhuang. The key was stuctural alignment in that instance, which was essential because as soon as it was aligned then there was no waiting nor development period, rather one would feel the difference (qi to some) immediately, the development or cultivation then commenced, after a few months of this practice then the Liangyi Zhanzhuang was explained, this was now completely different and the intention, breath, cycle changed once again. This structure however did not seem natural but this was the commencement of true development, the first made sense in cultivating internal but much I would discover that the second laid the martial foundation. Had I not continued the second would seem estranged but in fact was the development key.

Many years before however when practicing Chuojiao, the Zhanzhuang had a different purpose and the intention differed, with a wave/fan dantian approach to the internal breath or qi, however it was ideal for the intended outcome.

Yet again when meeting my grandfather (wife's side) Master Yu, a 89 year old qigong practitioner (Xiinyi Liuhe and other Neijiaquan in his young years), his methods had a whole series of knocking, rubbing and massaging various points in combination with practice and this allows the amazing power that he has.

etc... different but same...thus there is no right definition only right cultivation and practice for the purpose and in accordance with the method laid down by our ancestors.

Lastly, some martial arts were simply 'brute' and have done well as such, again that is their purpose.

If your context is WCK (Which I also am not a practitioner of), then I am unsure but given the popularity it is bound to have greater error in transmission, thus your point holds true. In the greater context unfortunately it cannot be summated by your single experience (nor your teacher's or any others).

Oh, please do not continue with the very naive rant about china losing tradition, many of my teachers are from the mainland (Others are from Nanyang) and there is no way that they have a lack of tradition skill or internal cultivation. Yes on the onset China is modernising, so has most of the world but in the same manner there will always be the traditionalists and the modern traditionalists (i.e. the development traditionalist).

Lastly, having been a Research chemist in the past and entrenched with the scientific method, I am always for the testing of such via whatever safe means to have further understanding and correction of internal cultivation, noting that this is continuously done in China and around the world with many extraordinary results (some real some not), yet the explanation is almost always left onto tradition.

Even in Australia they are realising that all the scientific methods and ideal training or sport method has not necessarily developed more capable athletes, because in the past some people did things in a way particular to themselves, yet these methods were suited to themselves, thus there is an aspect of individual nature which is a variable in every equation.

The want of sicentific measurement to validate tradition is however an interesting irony. Traditional Masters measure results by outcomes be it combat effectiveness or health or mind etc not necessarily by a machine.

Thanks
Wu Chanlong


you have a good point,

However, Is it neccessary to attack me instead of stick with technical?

This is what I post

IMHO, I found lots of so called martial artists today have no idea about even the basic of going internal starting how to do To Na or diaphramatic breathing, how to do quiet mind use yee, and finally no where close to know how to use Yee to lead Qi.

did I say Lots or I say All except me?

since I say lots then,

I dont see a reason to post the following. :D

This is become a little funny and a little ignorant as you are assuming that no one understands the basics of martial arts.

The problem lies not on needing to understand internal cultivation and development it is that you assume that the only way is that which you have understood.



Let's get to the topic instead of these ego stuffs.







As for Zhang Zhuang...etc,

such as

"The key was stuctural alignment in that instance, which was essential because as soon as it was aligned then there was no waiting nor development period, rather one would feel the difference (qi to some) immediately, the development or cultivation then commenced,"



Could you explain in detail what is the cause and effect of this method in term of the three basic core of the internal art--- the body, breathing, and mind?

We know today and proven scientifically,

in order to get Qi manifest in a Qigung practioner, we need to get into alfa brain wave state. or generate 8 to 10 hZ of brain wave freequency.


How is your strucural alignement effect the brain wave?
and if there is effect how does it effect?
if there is no effect on the brain wave, then is what one feel Qi or something else?



See, I dont buy the story of ---- yes, stand there make alignment in the body and everything wil come, and that is the full story. NOPE, there got to be how to deal with mind.

and also it is know fact that , Qigong is about let go or using Yee to lead Qi and if needed transport the body. without those capability, the training is not full. IMHO.


Further more,
We also know today that if one could not do Diaphramatic breathing then the evoke of Qi is hopeless.


So,
NOpe, it cant be just stand there and work with the body only, the ancient said " tuning the mind, breathing, and body" 3 tuning.


In today's term,

Brain Wave, Diaphramatic deep breathing, and loosen up the physical body.

Those could be monitor.

and,

if we dont have away of monitoring, then the outcome is not very predictable.




It would appreciate you keep everything technical in the discussion so that we all learn, you might have a good way to solve my issue which I am facing. and a collective of solving issues itself is contributing to the art. IMHHO


Peace

[Shaolin Master]

:D off the ego stuff.....

The point of the scenarios was to outline different methods to achieve a common outcome, not to outline the complete practice. That level of detail on that is not something that would be outlined here. The basic concepts of yi qi shen xi qing etc are present in all methods.

I do not know nor would I want to know the physiological or electromagnetic basis for the practice (brain wave or otherwise), this is something that would belong to those interested in such.

I simple terms correct structure is both a manifestation of rootness whilst lightness combined or rather as one, body, spine the centre , the limbs all feel in place and the sensation clear, breath is a resolution of consistency and undisturbed flow and mind is of clarity without despair etc. this basis would then allow for the further aspects ...from the ability to centre to that of transforming whether to energize up into the mind/brain or round the centre or straight to the centre or through the fingers for Wu Baiqian or the jiao for zhuanjiao etc all of which is not to be outlined (this includes the intention and the breathing method). This short explanation would not satisfy some yet it is a subjective thing which also includes difference of definition of terms. The fact is, similar manifestations occur on every single expersion of force, this could be energic but it is also biochemical, since everything is concentrated but without the pressure of such then the intention is free which is like a lightheaded buzz. Even if this is explained few would really understand the meaning as it would be a different interpretation.

Yi is common to everything as is qi as is breathing. Diaphramatic breathing as in opera singers differs from Dantien breathing depending on the method.

Still not sure of the point of all this though.
Best to search those interested in brain waves and all that, we are but humble (amateur at best) martial practitioners:)

Regards
Wu Chanlong

[Vajramusti]

I would be interested in any however brief survey like comments by Eric on wing chun in Singapore.
Used to be- Singapore required governmental certification for any public teaching of martial arts.
In my travels between the USA and India- I often stop in Singapore...and I have stopped in Bangkok, Tokyo, seoul and taipei.
Given my curiosities I try to find out what I can about martial arts wherever I go- given the limitations of time and budget.
I used to know a wing chun person fairly well, in Singapore but have lost track of him. No answer to a phone call to one number that someone gave me.
And in the yellow pages there was Leung Ting's branch listing. I tried to make different phone calls to places listed in the yellow pages- admittedly not the best way to search and geta sense of what's going on with an art..

joy chaudhuri

[Eric Ling]

I would be interested in any however brief survey like comments by Eric on wing chun in Singapore.
Used to be- Singapore required governmental certification for any public teaching of martial arts.
In my travels between the USA and India- I often stop in Singapore...and I have stopped in Bangkok, Tokyo, seoul and taipei.
Given my curiosities I try to find out what I can about martial arts wherever I go- given the limitations of time and budget.
I used to know a wing chun person fairly well, in Singapore but have lost track of him. No answer to a phone call to one number that someone gave me.
And in the yellow pages there was Leung Ting's branch listing. I tried to make different phone calls to places listed in the yellow pages- admittedly not the best way to search and geta sense of what's going on with an art..

joy chaudhuri

Hi ,

There are few Wing Chun classes in Singapore that I know of.

Besides Master Ku’s , I only know of 2 more; one along Lavender Road and the other somewhere in Pasir Ris; situated in the eastern part of Singapore.

Yes there was a time that all MAs must be approved by MACU or Martial Arts Control
Unit, an outfit reporting to the Criminal Investigation Department of the Singapore Police.

I was told that this licensing is no longer a requirement.

The thought back then was that gangsters were somehow related to MAs.

Me, a gangster:confused:

I must be the nicest guy I know ….

Warmest Regards.

Eric

[mantis108]

Gentlemen,

There are good points raised both by Shaolin Master (thanks for providing personal training perspective and experience) and Hendrik as well. I would love to have input from Eric as well. Also thanks Wu-Ji, Yum Cha for the input. Please keep them coming.

Hendrik, I understand where you are coming from. It's great that your colleagues have worked on the connection between brainwaves and Qigong and they have good results. But this would be quite localized experimentation IMHO. Emei 12 Zhuang however great is really a rare type of Qigong (or at least not as popular as Ba Duan Jin, Yijinjing, Taijiquan, etc). The investigation into this Qigong might help solve some issues with the Wing Chun Kuen genesis and perhaps even bring about new revelation of Kung Fu study and all, but in the grand scheme of Kung Fu, it's not the only one that can yield tangible results IMHO. I appreciate you for bringing that perspective to the discussion; however, we need to keep an open mind and a boarder perspective IMHO. Just a thought.

More to come later...

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, I understand where you are coming from. It's great that your colleagues have worked on the connection between brainwaves and Qigong and they have good results. But this would be quite localized experimentation IMHO. ------



Sorry to inform you that nope that is not my work.
I am just a messanger.


Brain wave and other ancient and scientific research had been done by pioneers such as Late internal art master, chinese doctor, and Martial artists Ma Li-Tang ( was praised as the father of modern Qigong, in Beijing and University even have written book on it.

As for Qi is reasonance thoery, that also has being a modern model from BeiJing to Taipei.
The key is to understood and have a better model and process on how to enter the state, settle stablely in the state....

and that is much much more effective then the type of "stand in the horse and keep standing until somedays one become pioneer " type of traditional chinese martial art teaching.


So, it is not something localized experiments.

Not to mention, the western university research has also reseach in the relationship of brain wave and body..etc.



So, if one could handle the basic of MInd, breathing, and physical. one could certainly enter the state. otherwise, one has not much control or the kung is unstable. That is a fact.





Emei 12 Zhuang however great is really a rare type of Qigong (or at least not as popular as Ba Duan Jin, Yijinjing, Taijiquan, etc). The investigation into this Qigong might help solve some issues with the Wing Chun Kuen genesis and perhaps even bring about new revelation of Kung Fu study and all, but in the grand scheme of Kung Fu, it's not the only one that can yield tangible results IMHO. ------



Brain wave, HRV, skin temperature and other scientifically monitorable data is beyond the methodology or Kung Fa (kung method) or style.

It is human basic.

Kung Fa or style shows different way of entering into the state. Some is more effective then others however the Human basic is human disregard of is it WCK or Taiji.. Could one enter the state at will, Could one activate the state with the Kung Fa, and how effective is the Kung Fa. Those all needs to be answer based on Human basic.

ONLY those Kung Fa that could lead one to have a handling on state is body and mind will produce KUng Fu. otherwise it is all theory and a wasting of life.






I appreciate you for bringing that perspective to the discussion; however, we need to keep an open mind and a boarder perspective IMHO. Just a thought.-------



I agree with you totally about being open minded. However, what if we know what other is talking about and we know that what the other is talking about doesnt deliver under the scientific measurement. Will you accept that? or is it by the name of Open minded that we cover up our own lost face?


See, the bottom line is could one's Kung Fa turn into Kung Fu. Could the technology work and how good could it work? IMHO.


Philosophy without be able to deliver, that is nice but sometimes wasting life.



Best Regards

[mantis108]

Hi Hendrik,

I gather that you are trying to drive home the point that the brain wave signature reaching a certian number after the "gong" practice or the so called "state" is ultimately what you reckon as having the proof that "internal" Kung fu exist or effective (man, you don't know how much that sounds like "Dragonball Z"). This is really the great divide for you right?

Okay, let's assume that you are right all along. Let's assume that brain wave 300 (figuratively speaking) and above happens after "Qigong"(whatever form that is). This is the "standard". So another one who registered this BW300+ is going to be doing "real" Kung Fu as you put it. Anyone who isn't then they don't have "real" Kung Fu. Am I correct so far?

Now, I assume that these scientists have test subjects and control groups right? This is fundamental in all scientific experiments right? Now, my question is did they use test subject that actually have real fight experience or did they just us some self proclaimed master know-it-all? Did they check those Qigong master's brain wave before and after Qigong and brain wave before and after a fight (resistive opponent). Did they use control groups of brawlers, traditional martial artist and martial athletes with the same procedures? Then they obtained the results?

The fact that bw300+ (if there's even such a case) means practically nothing other then that a "change" is observed which I am sure various level of brain waves would happen through various stress levels. This is highly conditional and by no mean objective. Threat and stress are subjective things and each living organism (human or otherwise) would response differently (ie brain wave flutations). BTW imposing such a condition on all Kung Fu (martial arts) practitioners, it's totally off the mark to put it nicely. On the other hand, we could say that this is classic case of abusive use of "science" to support the notion of the great divide of the so-called internal practice elitism. I would be very careful with such an interpretation of brain wave and I am sure real scientist would have placed a caveat on this kind of data.

Also, how does this brain wave thing changes the physcial power output? Did the scientists demonstrated that? There are tons of people out there that want to sell you "internal elitism". So I would caution about this type of abusive use of science to snub traditional methodologies that are obtained empirically. Beside, science often proves that there are much wisdom in "old wives tales". So... in some way science is just a tool to show that what work works. That's all.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Eric Ling]

Aaaaaagggghhhhh, I am still not getting involved until I at least understand what is being discussed here.:eek: :eek: :eek:

That or we all Skype-conference and speak in Mandarin/Cantonese/Fukien or meet in September and show & tell.:p :p :p

At this time I am divided between taking a nap or visiting Mr. Carlsberg……
:D :D :D

Warmest Regards all you techno-CKF high hands.

Eric

[Hendrik]

some basic:



各流派又有许多不同的练功方法，其练法虽各有所异，但就功法的基本内容而言，不外乎调身、调息、调心三个方 面，简称“三调”，也称作气功的三要素。每一种功法都是三者的具体结合和运用。下面分别进行介 绍：

　　1、调身：调身就是根据一定的目的和要求，放松身体，摆成一定的姿势，即调练体势。体势的锻炼主要是对 形体体力的锻炼。所谓“外练筋骨皮”主要是指这种锻炼说的。不同的体势对机体具有不同的影响，具有特定的健 身作用。同时，适当的体势也是顺利进行调息调心的必备条件。

　　气功的体势也分为行式、站式、坐式、卧式四类。行式、站式使很多肌肉群，尤其是身体下半部处于相对紧张 状态，对强壮筋骨，增强体力有很大的好处。坐式、卧式可使全身放松，有利于入静养神，培育真气，多用于静功 。

　　2、调息：调息，也称吐呐，是指练功时对呼吸的调整和锻炼。一般认为调息不仅直接起着调畅气机，按摩内 脏的特殊功效，而且有助于身体的放松和入静。

　　正常成人的呼吸为12—18次/ 分钟。练功入静后，呼吸变得柔和、细缓、均匀、深长，呼吸频率明显减慢，有时甚至每分钟仅呼吸 1— 2次。各流派功法对呼吸锻炼的要求也不同，有的要求顺呼吸，有的要求逆呼吸，有的要求自然呼吸等。实践证明 ，呼吸锻炼方法掌握不当，极易出现偏差，可以表现为胸闷、气短、腹胀，甚或不能自主呼吸等。故初学者对呼吸 锻炼要特别小心。我们认为，没有特殊病情，还是以自然呼吸为好。

　　3、调心：调心，也称调神，是对意识的锻炼和调整。它要求练功中精神放松，情绪安宁，杂念逐渐消除，以 达到气功入静状态，并在意识的主导下进行机体内部功能的自我调整和锻炼，通过特殊的心理过程来改变自身的生 理状态。这是气功具有祛病强身、改善心理、消除不良情绪作用的最根本原因。因此，调心在练功三要素中起着决 定性的主导作用。古人所说“全凭心意练功夫”就概括地表达了这一思想。

This above shows how important is brain wave monitoring.


　　在练功三要素中，调身是顺利进行调心、调息的重要条件，调息则有助于体势的放松和精神的宁静，同时，调 心也有利于调息，即所谓“心静则息自调”。可见，三者相互联系，相辅相成，共同发挥整体的调节 作用。



Without this basic, how is one going to handle advance stuffs?

[Hendrik]

Contious from the basic above

This is the
YIGan or Yi JIng Jing example to show why the mind handling and breathing handling are important.



健身气功﹒易筋经是由十二个单势动作和起势、收势动作组成的。在习练时对功法的每一个动作的运动路线、习练 要领和动作规格都要了如指掌、牢记于心，以形成正确的功法动作概念。正确的功法动作概念通常包括：身体姿势 和功法动作的轨迹、时间、速度、节奏，以及动作与呼吸的相互配合、动作中的心理调节等基本要素 。

　　（2）心静体松，呼吸自然

　　健身气功的作用是健身，手段是“三调”，即运用形体动作、呼吸吐纳和心理活动来刺激或调节身体，只有在 精神放松、意识平静、呼吸自然的情况下，才能做到意随形走，意气相随，起到健身养生的作用。因此，心静体松 要贯穿功法习练的始终。在习练初期，由于不熟悉套路和动作，往往容易出现动作不协调、表情不自然、身心不放 松等现象。这一阶段的习练者首先要注意克服紧张情绪，调整呼吸，培养自己调控身心状态的能力，努力做到心静 体松，神形自然。


　　（3）中正平稳，缓慢柔和
　　在健身气功习练中，只有动作中正才能做到心平气顺，心静体松。因此，习练时动作一定要自然、平稳，节奏 要缓慢、协调，做到中正柔和，体态端正安舒，以利于通过习练功法来达到易筋、易骨、易髓的效果 。


all these are just basic. now a days lots of people dont know this and some argue big time on the need of these basic; however they make claim on thier internal art expertise. that lead me to question how to be an expert if one have no idea about the basic?



just some thing to share.

[Hendrik]

Let's face it.

without be able to enter into the state....etc

how the world one could do the following?


内功是太极拳技的核心。它可以增强人的体质，提高拳艺水平，增加技击力度,亦可强化人体抗御外力的能力。这 诸多功能均来自于“内气”锻炼，以及“气动”与“体动”的完美结合，而内功的独立修为则足前提 。

大多数习练太极拳者都知道“以心行气，以气运身”。其实，这就是内功训练的总体内容和行拳要求。所谓“以心 行气”就是指用意识引导内气，并按人的意志循经运行；所谓“以气运身”就是把内气运送到身体的某一部位或某 几个部位去，产生所需要的“内劲”，进而提高拳技。这种“以心行气，以气运身”的修为目的：一是需要“意识 ”能动地参与，并作为内气的向导；二是需要用逆腹式呼吸(吸气时收腹，呼气时拥腹)作为引子启动内气运动； 三是要练就的功夫是“内气”的细、慢、深、匀地运行和有秩序地开合。其具体的训练内容、技理和程序，可做如 下表述：




http://www.taiji.net.cn/Article/Class4/Class14/200704/5066.html




《十三势行动心解》中说:“以心行气，务令沉着”，乃能收敛入骨。以气运身，务令顺逐，乃能便利从心，精神 能提得起，则无迟重之虞，所谓顶头悬也，....

without be able to handle the mind and entering the concious state needed. the rest is hopeless. ...

Brain wave monitoring makes entering the door more effective.



Just some thoughts.

[Hendrik]

So, from above, disregard of Wudang's Taiji, Shao Lin's Yijingjing or Yigang in cantonese, or Emei 12 zhuang.

They all have a basic requirement. and

now,

we could monitor these basic. Nothing mysterious and Internal Kung exist clearly.

Mantis, I hope these above by evidence answer all of your questions.

NOpe, I am not talkin WCK. I am talking basic stuffs only.




peace

[Hendrik]

With the basic 3 keys as above,

then one proceed into the internal art to learn about the two Catagory of internal art --- The Moving Kung or Still Kung

Moving internal art means the body is in action with the mind relatively still.
Still internal art means the body is still with the internal Qi is moving or transporting.

to start to practice, then, one has to know how to deal with the Moving which is a manifestation of entering to the "State" or evoke's Qi. and one has to learn with how to evoke the Qi , circulate it, and return it to the original when the practice is done. otherwise, one better dont start.


Lots of step by step process.

With today's biofeedback technology, we could be more safe and predictable learn to handle the basic key.



and for different style, lineage, they have thier uniqueness in how to handle thier mind, breathing or Qi, and body. and uniqueness comes with strength and weakness.

all these have to be clear. otherwise, one cant start any internal art cultivation. and IMHO, without the above minimum understanding, one doesnt know what is the full view of internal art cultivation, not to mention to achieve something advance.



peace

Just some thoughts

[mantis108]

So, from above, disregard of Wudang's Taiji, Shao Lin's Yijingjing or Yigang in cantonese, or Emei 12 zhuang.

They all have a basic requirement. and

now,

we could monitor these basic. Nothing mysterious and Internal Kung exist clearly.

Mantis, I hope these above by evidence answer all of your questions.

NOpe, I am not talkin WCK. I am talking basic stuffs only.

peace

You know Hendrik, when Shaolin Master mentioned about arrogance, I felt that he might be a bit harsh. But now that you use some silly novice quote (properly from a $1.25 Ren Men Bi book that you can get in any Chinese book store) to do your rebuttal, I am starting to think that he is right. Your ego is really blindsiding you, my friend. I asked if you have concrete scientific report from those experiements that you hold so highly but you instead giving me some unknown writer who did nothing more that regurgitating something that every Chinese who have some degree of Kung Fu training can come across. The person or persons who wrote those passages at best have superficial knowledge of Qigong not to mention they properly haven't had any real Kung Fu experience. You can buy into their BS and you accuse me of having sallow knowledge of a novice? I am no master but I am a Kung Fu man with self respect. I am sorry that this is just getting out of hand. I came to this dialogue with you in good faith and all you are interested in is some silly games like this. I don't see a point in continuing with this discussion.

So I think we should call an end to this discussion. Good luck with whatever study that you are going through.

Mantis108

[Hendrik]

You know Hendrik, when Shaolin Master mentioned about arrogance, I felt that he might be a bit harsh. But now that you use some silly novice quote (properly from a $1.25 Ren Men Bi book that you can get in any Chinese book store) to do your rebuttal, I am starting to think that he is right.

Your ego is really blindsiding you, my friend.

I asked if you have concrete scientific report from those experiements that you hold so highly but you instead giving me some unknown writer who did nothing more that regurgitating something that every Chinese who have some degree of Kung Fu training can come across.

The person or persons who wrote those passages at best have superficial knowledge of Qigong not to mention they properly haven't had any real Kung Fu experience. You can buy into their BS and you accuse me of having sallow knowledge of a novice?


I am no master but I am a Kung Fu man with self respect.


I am sorry that this is just getting out of hand.

I came to this dialogue with you in good faith and all you are interested in is some silly games like this.

I don't see a point in continuing with this discussion.

So I think we should call an end to this discussion. Good luck with whatever study that you are going through.

Mantis108





Do I accuse you anything?

I dont, read my posts. here is no Game either.

and also, whatever your level of Kung Fu that is reality. It will not change due to anyone's word.




Since You make the following claim.

"If we understand that the 8 vassals (or extra meridians) and 12 meridians (all organs are connected with these and the organs are houses of our subtle elements such as Qi) are essentially involved at all times as long as we are living, we simply shouldn't or couldn't seperate the mind-body continuum into external and internal. People who advocate that simply don't have any real knowledge on human anatomy from an ancient scientific perspective IMHO."

My interest is focus on presenting it is real that There is Internal art , which you believe it is otherwise.














You want concrete Scientific study?

Read Late DR Ma Li-DAng's work on Yang Qi Gong of Beijing
Read the book from Professor Lim Siao-Chong of Taiwan,
Read the modern TCMedicine theory book which Title The Music of Qi.

All publication is from 1990 to today.


and
What were known today support what I have posting be it those are ancint stuffs be it from the unknown writers. If they have the kungfu, and post the truth, then so be it why look down on them?






I just show you those people who advocate in internal know what is going on be it in the past or present day.

You dont have to agree with me and you can show me your evidents

But, What is the point of not staying in technical discussion but attacking me?
If you dont like to discuss, then dont discuss. Why all these



BTW.

"Originally Posted by Shaolin Master
This is become a little funny and a little ignorant as you are assuming that no one understands the basics of martial arts. "

he said Ignorant instead of arrogance so dont qoute him wrong.






as for your accusation on "... some unknown writer who did nothing more that regurgitating ..."



IMHO, TRUTH is TRUTH disregard of big name or not.


I am just someone who love to find out what is going on and share.




Thank you for your sharing of your view and your emotion.

Best luck for you journey.


Peace

[Eric Ling]

Hi everybody,

Robert, Brother Hendrik and Shaolin Master,

I want to begin by saying that I saw this coming ….

Every time a topic about Shaolin , internal/external and North/South opens up, we are going to have discord.

Just like what I encounter when I travel and meet folks from diverse styles around here and when any of the above creeps in our exchange.

How we manage the dissonance is really more important to me. The “divide” is not expected to go away anytime soon.

I started a thread in this forum to discuss the couplet “10,000 cherries blossom on 1 tree & 10,000 methods originated in Shaolin” a while back and it was running in the same manner but fortunately it was aborted before any major damage was inflicted.

To me, harmony tops everything. :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)


I guess I got to go with the statement that “CKF is all about results” and not text book theories and explanations.

Or like my Sifu use to answer me when I start to ask one too many questions; “train, train and train some more…..” I actually spoke about this in the TV documentary that New York company did 2 years back and some of you might even catch it on your TV networks sometime this year.

This is also something that a Penang Master said to me recently; all traditional CKF that lasts till the present time must have merits or otherwise they would have been decimated a long time ago.

So every style is “right” – I love his attitude.

And humbly I think it would do us well if we all emulate these great Masters who have taken more salt than any of us would have eaten rice…

They talk about each other arts and methods with GRACE; really none of that “my method is more right than yours” or I hold the only “true answer” mentality anywhere.

To me CKF is still pure “Art” with little “science” and I enjoy it this way. I could be 100% wrong here but I am totally happy with my Kung Fu and the way I do it. And as with any arts, it bores down to a question of personal taste.

I want to quote my Sifu again and this is something I teach all my students; you know you are doing the art right when you feel JOY……

Gentlemen, like I said in my earlier post; let's agree to disagree.

Failing which, Robert I would suggest to close this thread.

With respect,

Eric

[Yum Cha]

I think harmony is highly overated. Friction and pressure create diamonds.

Perhaps this is relevent, perhaps not, its certainly off track, but what made you change from the Chow Fook lessons to Northern Mantis?

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


I would have to agree that this age old internal/external North/South type of conversation is a road with no end. Those with different exposures would find that there is no clear segregation and that all roads lead to the way.

Yes and no. This is similar to the old maxim: many Ways but only One Way. Its similar to Sink the Qi training. Will Hung Gar Tiet Sein get you to the same place as Yi Quan Jam Jong? One will cultivate the Zheng Qi and the other something different. The process of Mind/Body/Breath Alchemy is just not the same. Jook Lum Gan Tun Geng is not Taiji Peng Geng etc. JR

Others with dedication in the heart would submit the one path which also leads to the way. In the end everyone is obtaining the same some maybe clearer others maybe diverse yet all if dedicated and directed correctly shall succeed.

Its nice to have a similar appreciation for or neutral thoughts towards all practices but certainly they do not all lead to the same. How can someone cultivate Zheng Qi if the mind is in scattered condition. Will the tensing/muscle and breath bring on to the same state as the arts rooted in Stillness?

Today the Biggest problem with Qi and Noi Gong stuff is the everything is everything idea. Todays Noi Gong/Qi Gong community is saturated with practitioners who believe if they just relax and breath slow this is Qi Gong. Its not. You can do Goju Karate or Hung Gar or Taiji or even Jam Jong with this idea and all get the same results.

Just some thoughts!

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


"If we understand that the 8 vassals (or extra meridians) and 12 meridians (all organs are connected with these and the organs are houses of our subtle elements such as Qi) are essentially involved at all times as long as we are living, we simply shouldn't or couldn't seperate the mind-body continuum into external and internal. People who advocate that simply don't have any real knowledge on human anatomy from an ancient scientific perspective IMHO."


The human body is already hard wired but do not think because the body is already wired it means you are in control of it and smoothly flowing. This is not the case. First!!! For one to begin to even experience this whole mind/body/breath training you need to Collect the Yi and Sink Qi to Dan Tien. When the Dan Tien is robust and full it will eventually Burst and start going where it wants to go. In Jam Jong one needs atleast a couple of years before things really start to surface and this training is simple & easy to reproduce.

The division or classification of internal and external must be understood. A lot of people take offense to Internal/External label because they dont like to be classified as "external" or sometimes even no gong. The classic state:

Internall train the breath/qi etc..
Externally traing the muscles/tendons etc..

I list them both as Noi Gong but classically they were not both considered noi Gong. Noi Gong/Wai Gong. Both part of the body but clearly defined and developed.

Just some thoughts.

[Eric Ling]

Aaarrrrgggghhhhh ......

The more I read this thread, the more my "chi" is growing .....:eek: :eek: :eek:

Now is that internal, external or provoked (emotional) ?

Aaaaarrrrgggghhhhh.... :D :D :D

Can some one expire the "chi" of this thread :p :p :p

[Jim Roselando]

Wu Chanlong,


Another set of simplistic sink qi to dantien, then it will burst .... yeah then what?

Ah....no real comprehension.

Lets try not to make this a word game debate. There are "many steps" and what I wrote was Basics of Basics. Unless someone sinks the qi to dan tien then what is there to talk about with all the flow thru the 8 meridians stuff?

All styles practice their methods for their own objectives and outcomes they are not supposed to aim for the same result per se. However, they all have the 'right' way there is no 'only way' to do thinking that is what is being contended.

Maybe you can tell us how a Hung Gar guy cultivates Zheng Qi with Teit Sien? Whats the difference between Zheng Qi and other Qi! See, this is where i agree with you but disagree as Rou Jing and Tiet Sein are different. They are all training for the specific art you practice but if someone is looking for Rou then some stuff certainly would not fit that category hence there may be Only a Few ways for that method.

Thus if an Yiquan stylist practices their Jamjong for a purpose and obtain that then they succeed, accordingly if the Hung ga practices his Titsin and the obtains their purpose they succeed. Whether one is faster, better, healthier, more correct , more internal or whatever etc....is not important as they all inevitably succeed if they practice in that manner.

You are correct but where you seem to misss the point is that they are all correct for what they are doing but not all the same nor finish at the same point. Everything is not everything.

BUT, trying to simplify and use general concepts of other styles to explain something that was not that way to begin with becomes futile and in fact is an attempted failing to comprehend the underlying objective of the art. Thus worse than those not understanding the basics of qigong theory are those that have not really practiced and mastered their art as it is then start searching for unrelated theories,concepts and practices to supplement without acknowledging that it is something different to begin with.

Alchemy is sooooo simple but very specific for each art. Comparing other arts process is a must as each art has their own signatures and each art produces certain results to the training. Chan Su Gong and Snake Slide Cacoon of Emei are just not the same effect on the body/art.

Internal has become a label for lazy, for doing things in away unlike the military methods of the past when it comes to styles which ultimately are simple and lack lustre.

Military methods? This is not just a label? Martial art is martial art. Noi Gong is noi gong.

Do not place links off general Taijiquan or qigong practice. Place text of the Wingchun Qigong method. Do not mention what is required or happens before, explain what happens after and how to deal with? Do not quote simple things like breath and Qi to mean internal .... that is insufficient, everyone breathes and everyone has Qi.

Also muscles and tendons without internal would not function as effectively so therefore there is always development of localised Qi ...even for weightlifters....

From reading your posts it seems pretty clear that we have a different understanding of Noi Gong/Qi and other stuff. I cant see how a weight lifter straining to pump out the heavy reps is openning the body for more circulation/flow. To help the discussion move from speculation to more in depth beef why not exaplin what you feel inside your body as Qi and how it flows thru the 8 meridians? Explain what you feel going on inside your body?


As advised best to not continue as really it will become futile.

I dont see why this is futile. I agree but disagree with you as your posts are just too generic speculation.

[mantis108]

This one for you. It's orginal writing of mine not copying from a $1.25 book. You be the judge of my work.

調身-即所謂身息﹐是故必先明脈絡﹐即所謂奇經八脈與十二正經(八剛十二柔)﹐說
的正是奇正相生﹐剛柔相濟﹐水火操作之道。練武者以膽為先﹐以膽(子時一陽來復﹐
陽息之始)為中直﹐膽主出入﹐半表半裡故中﹐由頭走足為直﹐是謂中直八剛十二柔
(見于劍經)

調息-即所謂氣息﹐乃十二月辟卦﹐陰陽消息﹐陽火陰符之道﹐吞吐浮沉在其中。

調心-即是精滿不思淫而化為氣﹐ 氣滿不思而化為神﹐神滿不思睡而化為虛是謂
三花聚頂﹐即所謂三回九轉是一式(易骨﹐易筋﹐洗髓*)。三花聚頂﹐五氣朝元與奇
經八脈及十二正經是“息息相關”(身息氣息之謂也)的﹐所謂師曠之聰不廢六律﹐
公輸之巧必以規矩﹐談空並不等如空談。

*是洗髓不是易髓(漢京房易卦變理論可佐證)﹐如連這個也弄錯﹐根本未有資格談氣
功﹗更惶論所謂內功心法(內外如一﹐內聖外王之道)

所謂三調其實只是一個下學上達之道﹐而元精﹑元氣﹑元神都只是一個“真氣”不
同的階段﹐一氣化三清﹐能不能圓滿通融只在一個“煉”字﹐如此而矣。

Eric, I understand your sentiment and I appreciate what you are saying but there are times (佛亦要降魔) . So we can't be complacent and let false pretence to take advantage of kind nature. I don't particularly care about what particualr person say certain things and I am not upset in this discussion. But I do believe something is off and I should take a stand. That's all.(勇者無懼以膽為先) Between harmony and truth, I will pick truth any day. Thank you for your concerns and I hope this doesn't turn you away. You are a cherrished friend.

Yum Cha,

I love Lung Ying and Bak Mei as my Sifu taught me. But I also can't stand the internal politics in the southern styles community honestly and that's not getting me anywhere. Ever since I met my mentor, Galen Fok, in Mantis and GM Chiu, I have been fortunate to have many knowledgeable and open minded folks to help me on my path. My personal growth is exponential (though my Kung Fu still sucks). I didn't chose to do mantis, I rather believe mantis comes to me and we clicked. That's all.

Warmest regards

Robert

[Jim Roselando]

Robert wrote:

Between harmony and truth, I will pick truth any day.

I totally agree with you. For me, all this stuff comes down to either Hard bow or Soft bow cultivation/arts. Each has their own truths but each unique. Hence why we all take a stand when we discuss our truths on forums or with friends.

[Eric Ling]

Hi everybody,

Robert, I am not being complacent or anything near, in fact I’ve being known to very fiery, within MA circles around here, when it comes to defending “integrity”.

“1 is 1 & 2 is 2” is the maxim I live by and I have to tell you that not all exchanges that I’ve had end up amiably.

Everyone of us think that we are right in picking the particular style or method that we picked and we don’t like to hear anything unfavorable. This, to me, is just the way we are. At least within CKF, there are still some constants and historical references to be used as a common platform for meaningful interactions.

Try the same with folks from Silats and Indian fighting arts and you could potentially end up in a melee.

And that why I believe that certain amount of tolerance and kung fu decorum must be applied.

I spent enormous amount of time these last 2 years researching and documenting CKF around here. Many times I find myself, because of my own training, at odds with some of the ways that other systems propose. This lead to many “touch hands” situations that taught me that there is no single method of “right” approach.

Well my friend, I got to admit that “writing about kung fu” is not my strong point; if anything, words always get in the way. I am nothing more than a “wu fu”.

There’s why in all the forums that I participate in, either others or those that I started, I rely on images and now video clips (thanks to youtube).

I am really impressed by the ways that so many CKF concepts are articulated in this discussion and could I, humbly, suggest that these be illustrated by a demonstration?

Seeing what is being discussed in action and the results, I think, will be much more convincing.

Please this is not a “put it up or shut up” dare.

This is what I go through each and every time I try to get a Master to share here.

So that is why you see a non-Wing Chun man (me) getting caught up in a “Wing Chun” situation recently with a Penang Master.

Warmest Regards.

Eric

[Hendrik]

I am really impressed by the ways that so many CKF concepts are articulated in this discussion and could I, humbly, suggest that these be illustrated by a demonstration?

Seeing what is being discussed in action and the results, I think, will be much more convincing.



Eric



Eric siheng,

IMHO, using HRV and EEG machine are excellent too for monitor and check one's training. especially for the begineer, so that we know if we got the training correct.



Demonstration doesnt let us see the control or handling part. with HRV and EEG machine reading we could see if one is capable of handling the body and mind whle in training and also it is forcefull or nature. or just full of theory but cant do a thing.


Jim here was at my home at the same time you meet Bo Suk in PG. We are almost taking the clip for Arrow palm but the video cameral die off. So I told him heaven must be asking us not to take it. True enough that it is mean for Bo Suk to do the demo.

Jim also tried the HRV machine to check his deep breathing handling after so many years of Zhan Zuang or standing post, and I also show him how we could get into alpha state with my EEG machine.

It is amazing this day what high tech could help us.


Just to share some of my limited experience.

[Yum Cha]

Hendirk,
Just to take another breath...

For a woefully undereducated student like myself, can you help me understand one thing, how do meditation and internal kung fu intersect? I'll assume you are not saying they are one and the same.

I would assume that at one end of the spectrum is the "Lazy" kung fu Jim referred to, and at the other end of the spectrum is the totally still meditation, of whatever style.

Alpha wave is an interesting state. People move into alpha wave after watching TV for a few minutes, without any training at all. Certainly, alpha wave mindstate is not the defining characteristic. Likewise, taking conscious control of your chi and moving it around in your body seems to be incomplete.

Mantis,
You really surprise me that Political frictions could chase you out of one style. However, as they say, the master finds the student, not vice versa. It seems you obviously have a fulfilling and continually rewarding study.

I asked because I was wondering if it had anything to do with the advanced studies of Pak Mei / Loong Ying vs Mantis. Pak Mei has been often referred to as one of the few combined internal/external schools, as opposed to the dedicated internal or external styles.

Unfortunately, while it doesn't diminish my gratitude, I don't read chinese, if you had a translation, I would be able to continue on the topic with something more intelligent.

[Hendrik]

can you help me understand one thing, how do meditation and internal kung fu intersect? I'll assume you are not saying they are one and the same.-------


Why assume? Why understand? what I say doesnt matter.

Do it and expereince them so you will know the common denominator.

Similar to taste of an orange, no one could help you to understand what is orange taste like if you have never eat one.






Alpha wave is an interesting state. People move into alpha wave after watching TV for a few minutes, without any training at all. Certainly, alpha wave mindstate is not the defining characteristic. Likewise, taking conscious control of your chi and moving it around in your body seems to be incomplete.---------



Again, unless you are there, speculation doesnt do any good. and without experience and actually be able to handle the alter state, the mind is not going to know what is it anyway. one could continously talk about this alpha and that qi but what is it if one have never know what are they?

So, the Kung Fa or kung method is extremely important. if one has a good kung Fa one could take a ride on it and right a way enter the state. otherwise, one could read or write all about the theory for 100000 life time but could never get any where but spining the mind.

and only after one has the Kung Fa, EEG monitoring is meaningfull because then one could use the machine to check how fast one could switch the state and how stable one could stay in that state.




Similar to those who think they are pioneer in Martial art research trying to link this style to that style but have no experience with the Power Generation DNA. all those work of socalled research is great but it is just never be able to get down to the where the "money" is. it is always superficial and cant touch the core.

That is because one could never distiguist a hard bow jing with a soft bow one even if one see one, so one always just look at the surface and reason with it and dont know one is off the mark.

Similarly, in this case, one doesnt know beyond thinking there is some other states.


So, Get a good Kung Fa, enter the state with it, and one will know what is what. at that point the EEG machine will help one to confirm one's attainment.


Peace

[Yum Cha]

Did I ever say I didn't meditate? I learned to meditate before I was 10 years old and have been around buddhists and Yogi who meditate for days. I have seen the good and the ill that comes of living in the land of the lotus eaters.

What interests me is trying to actually figure out what you are trying to say, if it has any merit and anything I can learn, or if you are just a novice who has recently discovered his first mediative experience and hasn't yet developed perspective on the experience.

I realise English is not your first language, and I'm trying to indulge that weakness, but you don't make a whole lot of sense all the time, I'm just trying to focus the discussion a little so you can make succinct answers and get a chance to regain some of your credibility.

Cheers

[Shaolin Master]

I deleted my post as I thought this was in vain and was trying to avoid it....but a selected part of it ended up in Jim's post.....some was left out.....funny.

:confused: Anways it seems that the Wingchun people are really "Sticky" :) and cannot let go.

So could we simplify the problem scientifically is

H0: Use of EEG machine and brainwaves are important to the study of Qi and Gongfu
H1: Use of EEG maching and brainwaves add no value to the study of Qi. and Gongfu..

or is it

H0: The only qigong practice is one the correct one
H1: There are many Qigong practices all beneficial in their own way

or

H0: The WC camp is much more knowledgeable on Qi development
H1: Other groups have no understanding of Qi development

Just thought it would be good to understanding which clear hypothesis is being tested.

Yumcha,
Mantis108's text seems to contain components of mantis qi methods as key differentiator.


Regards
Wu Chanlong

PS: Thanks Mantis108 for your practical, logical and balanced text.

[Jim Roselando]

A common Confusion:


The art of Qi has many approaches. In modern times we can go to 100 people and find if we are "lucky" (real lucky) maybe 1-2 that really go thru the alchemical process. With proper guidence one can begin to experience the phenom of alchemy within a few years. The body will certainly be working and changing but if you dont spend a minimum of 20 + minutes a day the first couple of years you will most likely never never experience what you are supposed to begin to experience.

In the qi/alchemy world these are the most common signs of lack of expereince:

I feel the tingling
I feel like I am over-heating
I feel the pump in the muscle
I feel sooo relaxed
etc.

;)

All are quotes of no alchemy transmutation gong! With the Noi Gong (in/out) the Wai aspects are often confused with the Noi. This is one reason why people think a physical muscle pump is sign of Chi or chi n that area versus a just what it is, a Muscle Pumped up (or blood in area). Stage "one" of Sink Qi to dan tien has never been deeply trained otherwise???? Whats the famous quote: Is The Master Home?

There are hard gong methods that involve tensing and or holding the breath. Not the same as Pumping Iron. Different body structure/posture, body conditioning and much more. Jook Lum and other arts, including India's Kundalini, share this approach. Sealing the breath is supposed to "force" the circulation thru the body or to a specific area. In the Rou platforms you are considered Dead when you are not breathing so these two approaches both have the right stuff for each art but certainly night and day different from each other.

Compare a weight lifter doing bench press. Tensing the chest as you thrust forward almost like military V posture. Now compare a Yi Chuan guy who Sinks the Yin and supports the Yang. He is built like a a Can of Soda cut right down the middle leaving just the back half. The front of the body is pulled in and is like the round cylinder. The Yi Chuan guy does not stick out/tense the chest or Yin side. Kills everything he works for!

Just some thoughts.

[Vajramusti]

Shaolin Master..

Common mistake in judging wing chun by what one person says--- be it Hendrik,
Jim or me. Hendrik is urging instrumental testing of state of mind. His thesis can be tested or not tested-does nor reflect on the practices of all wing chun people.
He is throwing out ideas based on what he has tested.
Some wing chun folks have little interest in mind control issues- some of Hendrik's points may rightly apply to them.
But structure, breath control, mind and spirit should all be there IMHO in good wing chun. Even in perfect alpha state- a person can be knocked down or thrown if structure and dynamics are not also integrated.
Words... but the in forums thats what we have.


Jim R- Hi Jim...
on kundalini or some other yogas.... breathing is a very complicated subject and not always well taught.
The "bandhs" or holds are small parts of an extensive curriculumi its circulation ina specific area with mind intent- does not involve muscle tension.. lots of bandhs are not recommended for people with hypertension until other breathing is sufficiently mastered.

Most postures in kundalini or hatha does not involve holding the breath--- there is the natural pause between inhalation and exhalation.

regards,

joy chaudhuri

[Shaolin Master]

Jim, you have stated the obvious, nothing insightful. ;)

What is lacking is the actual point , which might be simplified by the selection of the appropriate hypothesis.

2. Vajramusti, Thanks I would never really judge anything or anyone by that account it is just a point in discussion. Agree that it is the actual skill and practice that matters not just the words. :)

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Joy!


How are you?

Thanks for the post. I go to Kundalini once a week with the wife.

You are correct.

Holding to circulate it just a small portion of what is going on in the normal class. Usually after some set building up energy there are times when they hold and circluate what has just been worked. I broght this up as an example that there are differences in the so-called soft gong, hard gong & compare with weight lifting gong.

Jook Lum South Fist talks much about Master Lum Sang's internal cultivation. Its actually quite amazing that at 4' 11" and barely 100lbs he was so powerful. All his pupils state that even late in his career he could pick most of them up and pin them on the wall if he wanted. One thing he was famous for was to practice his Som Bo Gin with one long held breath. Not an easy task and also a sign of a difference between so-called shaolin related and rou related systems. The DNA is different in the end.

Gotta run!


:)

[Hendrik]

I learned to meditate before I was 10 years old and have been around buddhists and Yogi who meditate for days. I have seen the good and the ill that comes of living in the land of the lotus eaters.



knowing your backgroud is really help me.

Ok,

since EEG machine is much expensive

such as this wireless one
http://www.icaptech.com/index.php?main_page=infopages&pages_id=39&zenid=bdfe176733ef94f44b185932d187f33e

which i own and to the proffesional machine which has more function.



HRV machine is good for entry level experiment or even everyday use in the family, and very effortable for who is serious in doing testing.



There are different Machine out there for HRV

such as

http://store.soundstrue.com/os01098d.html

and


http://store.soundstrue.com/os01096d.html



as for how these machine will help one, here is a sample of case.

Please read the following

" Q: Is it better than traditional meditation or yoga for stress reduction?

A: I pitted two tried-and-true calming practices against the StressEraser:

1. mindfulness meditation (as taught by Thich Nhat Hanh and the Insight Meditation folks) and

2. pranayama yoga breathing (the kind taught by Andrew Weil and Richard Freeman).

I ignored the StressEraser breathing cues and just let it give me a relaxation score. Here's how the “classic” strategies performed:

Mindfulness meditation: 21 points (feeling kindhearted yes,but not “calm”)

Yoga breathing: 32 points (calm and alert)

Now,here's the real surprise: I decided to try meditation while ALSO following the StressEraser guidance—a “double-decker” relaxation sandwich. Or was I inviting “double trouble”? I did the same with yoga breathing plus StressEraser guidance. Results:

Yoga breathing + StressEraser: 39 points (very deep relaxation and sense of well-being)

Mindfulness meditation + StressEraser: 41 points (very deep relaxation and sense of heartfulness and heightened awareness)

Wow.

Q: Simple yoga breathing worked for you almost as well as the StressEraser,so is this device really necessary?

A: Not necessary,but very welcome,especially before or after stressful situations. And when used WITH your own practices,it can add a huge boost.

Also,I've been doing the above practices for many years. If you have less meditation or yoga experience (or if you just want a little extra assistance now and then),I think you'll find the StressEraser especially valuable. "


http://store.soundstrue.com/os01096d-review.html




So, with the above example, with the HRV profile of different type of practice, we know what the practice can do or cannot do.

Also, we could know do we really be able to handle the mind/body or we just thinking and speculating while our practice really doesnt do much.

also, for the sifu, s/he could check on the student's profile to make correction or adjustment. and the Student could look at the sifu's profile to know what to expect and what is the mind/body "felt sense" when one syncronized into that state.....


IMHO, this is the type of thing what in the ancient time difficult to check on within the internal training or NeiKung cultivation.

Hope this will help

peace

[Yum Cha]

Thank you Jim and Hendrik.

While Shaolin Master may have found this information common, due to his extensive research and fluidity in the Chinese languages and Shaolin studies, a simple donkey like me found it informative.

Hendrik, I understand exactly what you are talking about with stress release and relaxation. But my question remains, how does that apply to the effectiveness or power of your Kung Fu? Granted, it takes you on the path to being a superior man, and that may well be enough, but I'm curious if or how it effects your performance.


Jim,
My experiences are more like the Kundalini, sealing the breath, centering the dan tien, raising the fire, as Sifu puts it. But I've found as I advanced, the breath became freer, and less "tense" and the power could be channeled from the dantien outward. Mind you, to my mind this is a physical, not a metaphysical experience. This than applies directly into my movement and delivery of force, passing the "fire". It also gives me extra speed and durability. This came mostly of stance training, which I started working as a low impact strengthening exercise and warm up, and it involves posture, breathing and stamina. You mentioned Jook Lum, ours is probably of the same ilk.

This is obviously significantly different to the mind-clearing, voiding, internalisation of some meditative experiences. I will use this kind of "thinking" to relax and clear my mind from time to time when I feel the need, but I'm curious on theories or exercises to connect the two.

Keep in mind, I often will do certain simple forms over and over, getting into a "zone" that would probably be Alpha, which is a kind of mixing of the two.

And thus, (perhaps Shaolin Master might have some interesting imput) is there a difference between "Shaolin" high level "internal" exercise with a martial bent, and Indian Kundilini on to buddhist meditation? Monks were religious and martial, how did the two blend (back to my question of Hendrik). There seems to be a natural link between the two, but as yet, the bridge is missing in our discussion.

What I am always interested in are new training techniques and the results to expect, as opposed to discussions of phenomena and jargon.

Thanks again to everyone for their involvement.

Cheers

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, I understand exactly what you are talking about with stress release and relaxation.


But my question remains, how does that apply to the effectiveness or power of your Kung Fu?

Granted, it takes you on the path to being a superior man, and that may well be enough, but I'm curious if or how it effects your performance.




The first few Stanzas of the WCK SLT set I practice said " collect the Yee, union with the Shen ( Awareness) in the equal shoulder stance. ... Sink the qi to Dan Dien, Du medirian, descent.."

The training is a step by step journey to examine and training the mind, breathing, and body starts with switch off the thoughts, activate the Intention.... to Sink the Qi into Dan Tien.....etc.



The machine makes it effective for one to communicate the state and to be able to monitor one's training, progress, and clearly aid to understand what work and what doesnt when it comes to handling the mind, breathing, and body. Simply save lots of time because one not longer doing guessing..


it is not about superman, but am I understand and syncronize to what the ancestors' teaching.

peace

[Hendrik]

And thus, (perhaps Shaolin Master might have some interesting imput) is there a difference between "Shaolin" high level "internal" exercise with a martial bent, and Indian Kundilini on to buddhist meditation?

Monks were religious and martial, how did the two blend (back to my question of Hendrik). There seems to be a natural link between the two, but as yet, the bridge is missing in our discussion.


Cheers



You might suprise that even meditator who spends decades doing meditation, when goes under the EEG some might not even past the brain wave handling test.

Thus, without a machine, most of us just not sure where were we, even theoritically we could qouet all the classic of meditation, internal training.....etc.


Peace

[Vajramusti]

In commenting on Yum Cha's post.
FWIW/IMHO---one need both awareness and proper form using the awareness.
Sil Lim tao in wing chun properly done is such a vehicle.
One needs both elements-awareness and proper motion (with testing-chi sao/gor sao) for martial quality in wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

[mantis108]

Sorry, I got back to this thread late (tax season lots of stuff to take care of).


Hello,


"If we understand that the 8 vassals (or extra meridians) and 12 meridians (all organs are connected with these and the organs are houses of our subtle elements such as Qi) are essentially involved at all times as long as we are living, we simply shouldn't or couldn't seperate the mind-body continuum into external and internal. People who advocate that simply don't have any real knowledge on human anatomy from an ancient scientific perspective IMHO."

The human body is already hard wired but do not think because the body is already wired it means you are in control of it and smoothly flowing. This is not the case. First!!! For one to begin to even experience this whole mind/body/breath training you need to Collect the Yi and Sink Qi to Dan Tien. When the Dan Tien is robust and full it will eventually Burst and start going where it wants to go. In Jam Jong one needs atleast a couple of years before things really start to surface and this training is simple & easy to reproduce.

First off welcome to the thread.

Please re-read my previous comment:

"Technically, We can not strengthen anything. BTW, strong or weak is a state of mind and is relative, if you haven't notice it yet. We can merely effect or rather encourage a change by observing the pricinples as nature intended. What you suggest is interesting but how does this relates to mindfulness that you seemed to be advocating all the time? When I am standing in a horse stance or goat capturing stance for that matter, I grid with my toes (with intent and essentially taking up the all the slacks in conjunction with other techniques) and I observe the quality of my breath and the flow of Qi is attained. The change of the mind-body continuum happens naturally. We can be no more effective than the farmer who attends to his crops by irregating, fertilizing, or pesticiding. The mind-body continuum grows as it is willing to grow."

One point I didn't clarify is that I shouldn't have used the word "activative" because it would suggest a causal effect in which the physical body take president. This would not be the case of course. The proper term would be soothing which is more inline with the idea of "Dao Yin"

What I am saying basically is that the Gong in Kung Fu is like a toy train set. One would have to put all the tracks, train cars and on/off switch in place making sure that the system is logically connected before worry about the on/off switch that allows the electical current to go through. For that toy train set to work you will need the whole system not just the ability to convert alternate current to direct current and certianly not about the on/off switch. So Zhan Zhuang is like putting the tracks together. BTW, doesn't Yiquan advocate Zhan Zhuang as part of the trianing as well?

Kung Fu is a process. It's like taking a train ride in the country. What's the rush? where's the fire? Sure you can take a plane and get there in no time. But what is the difference of the plane passenger's experience to that of a man who haven't live his life to the fullest and then die all of a sudden? Of course, you are entire to that choice. It is a choice after all.


The division or classification of internal and external must be understood. A lot of people take offense to Internal/External label because they dont like to be classified as "external" or sometimes even no gong. The classic state:

Internall train the breath/qi etc..
Externally traing the muscles/tendons etc..

In that case, all martial arts including Xingyi (mother of Yiquan?), Taijiquan, Bagua Zhang are not internal Kung Fu because they all have the "Externally traing the muscles/tendons etc.." All these uses Zhan Zhuang, forms, etc for training Kung Fu.


I list them both as Noi Gong but classically they were not both considered noi Gong. Noi Gong/Wai Gong. Both part of the body but clearly defined and developed.

Just some thoughts.

I maintain that this Nei/Wai Gong differentiation is the beginning of a commericalizing environment of Kung Fu. It does nothing more than division of the Kung Fu community. The second step which is happening and surfacing in this thread is consumerism of how to turn the balance of power into the hands of the students (buyers) in the name of science. All you need is a machine (perhaps in conjunction with a serious of DVD as well) to "monitor" your progress and you can forget about your Sifu. A compatent Sifu would "know" your progress without the help of any machine. If he can't do that, he's not a good Sifu at all. You want to be with a Sifu and train because it is the scenary of the train ride that is important rather than flying there in a shorter time.

I am sorry Hendrik can dress it up in any way he wants with his believes but that's not art or science that's consumerism pure and simple. I know that I sounded negative and all but I would rather be blunt and direct than bitting around the bush about it. I have nothing against Hendrik since I have not met him in person. He might be the most kind hearted and wonderful person there is, and I also am not suggesting that he has bad intention of any kind. I am just saying that if we look deeper into the issue we will see the method and the notion that he is suggesting have a far more negative effect than positive effect in Kung Fu practice.

I have no intention to cuase any trouble for anyone especially don't want to break the rice bowl of those who claim to be "master of internal arts" who might want to produce "correspondence courses". So, if I have offended anyone, I apologize.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Jim Roselando]

Special report in from Fukien:

www.chinamantis.com/fujian

You may need to register for the free look thru the chinamantis site to see this but then again, you may not. It was a free little e-book sent out from south mantis sifu in Fujian researching the 108.

N-Joy

:cool:

[Steeeve]

Jim

here the good one

http://www.chinamantis.com/

Steeve

[Jim Roselando]

Mantis108,


Nice to speak with you.

For some reason my computer wont copy/paste ( :mad: ) so I will try to answer as best I can without the direct writing above it!

M wrote;

Observe the breath and the qi flow will appear/all things will happen naturally etc..

This is a common misconception IMO. Someone could stand still and just put a little intent in anything they are doing for a lifetime and end up with zero alchemical cultivation. We are talking about the art of Alchemy when we talk about qi not just some smooth fluffy circulation feel. A process that chemically changes the body. Jing to Qi, etc.. What your talking about has no relation to the art of alchemy. JR

M wrote;

All the train tracks need to be in place etc..

Correct. Part of the process is to continually condition and gradually align the body. No doubt. This is very specific for each art and is progressive. If someone did not go thru constant conditoning and alchemical cultivation for many years then what they are doing is not having much effect on them.

Example:

Wang Xiang Zhai stated he needed 9 years to fully build you and his training is working you from the inside out. While you may be told in the very early stages to Just Stand, and everything will happen naturally, that is only good for a little while until they see you starting to make progress and they add a pinch of this or that. Yi Quan micro manages and conditions so that little by little you can start making it alive and promoting more circulation for what you are storing/cultivating. JR

M wrote;

Internal/External label etc..

Correct! All systems have both but both for all systems are not the same. In Ku Lo we state: Lik Yiu Noi Gong. We dont specifically call it internal or external training as its all insdie the body. Why some arts are considered primarily External is for their focus on the Wai or their focus on "No" Gong. The so-called Soft Internal arts that you mention like Ba Gwa/Hsing Yi/Yi Quan etc are typically labelled as such because they focus on just that the Noi (breath/qi). This is not to say that all arts dont have both but the main reason for the classic label. For me, its all noi gong but because its been so mis-understood the classic label has had to be maintained. JR

M wrote:

Hendrik modern tools no good etc..

I can understand your reluctant to see the point of modern science helping out a practitioner but any good sport center or athlete uses high tech stuff to monitor the performace vehicle. Why use e-mail when you can run to the post office every day? JR

This debate is easily discussed with a short write up on your epxerience of whats going on in your body? Tell us about the alchemy process you have gone thru? Explain what happen after many years and the so-called chakra phenom happen? Can you explain the process and feeling of the Qi packing the bones after much training or as WXZ called it: Shrinking of the Bones. You think all this stuff happens so easily or without lots of micro managing? Your post reads exactly like the writing of someone "without" going thru the Alchemy process. Sorry if it sounds negative but its just an opinion based on your writing/explanation of this stuff.

Gotta run!

[Jim Roselando]

Steve!

Thanks!

:)

[mantis108]

Hi everybody,

Robert, I am not being complacent or anything near, in fact I’ve being known to very fiery, within MA circles around here, when it comes to defending “integrity”.

“1 is 1 & 2 is 2” is the maxim I live by and I have to tell you that not all exchanges that I’ve had end up amiably.

Everyone of us think that we are right in picking the particular style or method that we picked and we don’t like to hear anything unfavorable. This, to me, is just the way we are. At least within CKF, there are still some constants and historical references to be used as a common platform for meaningful interactions.

Try the same with folks from Silats and Indian fighting arts and you could potentially end up in a melee.

And that why I believe that certain amount of tolerance and kung fu decorum must be applied.

I spent enormous amount of time these last 2 years researching and documenting CKF around here. Many times I find myself, because of my own training, at odds with some of the ways that other systems propose. This lead to many “touch hands” situations that taught me that there is no single method of “right” approach.

Well my friend, I got to admit that “writing about kung fu” is not my strong point; if anything, words always get in the way. I am nothing more than a “wu fu”.

There’s why in all the forums that I participate in, either others or those that I started, I rely on images and now video clips (thanks to youtube).

I am really impressed by the ways that so many CKF concepts are articulated in this discussion and could I, humbly, suggest that these be illustrated by a demonstration?

Seeing what is being discussed in action and the results, I think, will be much more convincing.

Please this is not a “put it up or shut up” dare.

This is what I go through each and every time I try to get a Master to share here.

So that is why you see a non-Wing Chun man (me) getting caught up in a “Wing Chun” situation recently with a Penang Master.

Warmest Regards.

Eric

First and foremost, I realized that the title of the thread have somewhat put you in a spot which is not my intent at all. For that I am sorry and please accept my apology.

I really appreciate your candid response and I am not suggesting you are complacent. But rather for all Kung Fu stylists to take into consideration that complacency (lethargic mind) is a dangerous thing not only to the topic of this debate by also other subjects such as modern Wushu and all. I believe that as a martial artist, we have to be mindful about trends and developments if we are serious about it. We also need to speak out within reason.

I understand your position and I thank you for the call to stay within realistic boundaries. I also admire your work to personally meet with and experience first hand. I wish I can afford such opportunity. But when tax man or the bank gang cometh, I am always the one that is left in a lurch. I think you are doing a great job in promoting Kung Fu and I personally believe in what you are doing. You are far too humble in many ways. I am sure you are not a mere "Wu Fu". Your intelligence and wisdom reach far beyond I dare to imagine. I understand that debate of theorectical principles and reasoning aren't exactly favorite subjects to all; still I would encourage anyone to give these "disciplines" a chance. As all my Sifus and mentors in Kung Fu have said Kung Fu is not just a physical exercise, the power of a beautiful mind is just as important if not more so.

I believe those who are participating in this thread are all passionate about Kung Fu, our respective arts and our personal believes. To me that's great. I welcome the chance to really debate about these stuff. I believe thre are lots of great info. and great perspectives from all sides. Believe it or not, I am benefiting a lot from hearing from those who give their input.

Warmest regards

Robert

[Shaolin Master]

Summary,

1. All groups practice aspects of Nei and Wai Gong allbeit differently.
2. There is possibility that modern equipment may assist in monitoring Qigong practice to allow improved progression. Although to the traditionalists this is mere commercialisation.
3. The new addition is that of the so called alchemy process, the transformations during and after Qigong practice.

Jim,

What would be suitable is for you to outline the alchemy process from your perspective since originally in this thread what was suggested as the unknown were actually basic common qigong concepts. Now that it has become another aspect it would be best to ensure that it is not just a definition of terms issue.

Regards,
Wu Chanlong

[Hendrik]

2. There is possibility that modern equipment may assist in monitoring Qigong practice to allow improved progression.--------------------


I would not use the word Qigong because the Word qigong is a modern term. the old term is Nei Gong at it is more precise term to decribe what is the cultivation is about.


and Nei Gong must not be confused with Nei jia or internal art term.

IE A Taiji guy who doesnt know how to use Yee to lead Qi and transport the body is doing Wai Gong.


instead of " possible" , it has happen.
Jim here has also tried it and know where he stand on his deep breathing cultivation.

with the modern tool, one could enter into Now and experience what is it. it is a better directional training compare with the non modern technological way of coaching. at least others know what one is talking about when the student could reproduce the "felt sense" of the state.

also, to evoke the qi, once the mind quiet down the qi will surface. using the machine is much superior in training compare with the dogmatizm type of teaching , remember/ talking/ thinking lots of theory but never get beyond the realm of thinking which is not effective at all.




peace

[Eric Ling]

Hi Robert,

No need for any apology … I know exactly where you are coming from.:) :) :)

Basically, I come from the “old” schools; that or I am just getting old.

I got nothing against any new methods or technologies that might enhance kung fu performance. And by Kung Fu I mean “fighting skills” so modern Wushu is not even on my radar screen at all.

All I am trying to say that with all these theories expounded, wouldn’t it would make a more persuasive case if the results were to be demonstrated and since we are communicating over the net; a video clip or 2 ?

Especially for a slow learner like me.

I want to share a discussion I had with a Penang Master recently; not going to mention names for obvious reasons.

He said he is tired of hearing about this jing or that jing or the ways to neutralize jing.
The only jing he wants is the kind that floor opponents.

And this is not a young wannabe but a very senior Master; someone I respect tremendously.

My own White Crane Sihing is fond of saying this; what good is “internal” training if it is not effectively expressed “externally”. Since the passing of my Sifu, this Sihing is the only mentor I’ve got to seek White Crane higher grounds.

So some displays of how all these “internal” knowledge and awareness get translated to “kung fu” perhaps?

Having said all that, I want to repeat that I got nothing against the discussions that is going on here.

Please continue and I will still pop in to learn a thing or 2 from all you high hands.

Thank you.

Warmest Regards.

Eric

Errhh still no answer to my question of “Sheng Chi”? Why do we equate getting angry to “growing chi” ……:p

[Jim Roselando]

Wu Chanlong,

1. All groups practice aspects of Nei and Wai Gong allbeit differently.

Correct.

2. There is possibility that modern equipment may assist in monitoring Qigong practice to allow improved progression. Although to the traditionalists this is mere commercialisation.

Correct and maybe or maybe not correct. I consider myself an extremely traditional guy so ;)

3. The new addition is that of the so called alchemy process, the transformations during and after Qigong practice.

Additon? This could be my fault as I started talking about it with the whole Wai/Noi subject. I never read the whole discussion from the beginning!

Jim,

What would be suitable is for you to outline the alchemy process from your perspective since originally in this thread what was suggested as the unknown were actually basic common qigong concepts. Now that it has become another aspect it would be best to ensure that it is not just a definition of terms issue.

Where do I begin? I know there is nothing I can say that will not be met with, I new that, We do that, etc. but what the heck.

From my experience you need minimum one year to get the body almost ready for training. This is with an average of a couple of specific stretches and jam Jong 20-30 minutes daily. (or wing chun method but I will describe a little Jam Jong as its simpler on screen) After the first year the body starts to begin to sample natural regulating. Still no real or significatnt qi stuff by the way. You have to be more patient hahaha. Its like watching grass grow (Oy)! Posturally your body starts to align, your breathing starts to settle/regulate and the mind begins to strengthen. Harvard studies the effect on the brain with Meditation (stillness) and it shows that the Wall thickens over time so you Yi is also becoming more Sharp. The second year you will being to get symptoms but the good stuff starts around year 3. Your body is ready for training and ready to be really open up. What you have stretched and STORED will be Woke Up with body movement and other internal stuff. I believe mys sifu told me: I'll help you Evoke the Serpent! Your points start to wake up (example/Hoi Yin area will be real soft and almost feeling like Mercury) as the dan tien keep slowly filling. So much stuff will be going on. The Chi of this training is not the heat of the Fire methods btw. hint hint More like Ben Gay! Yup! The feeling is best describes as yang sheng process to bring one to the natural state. By year 4 your body is gettting in good shape. All sorts of stuff will be in your control inside. You will also have been letting go in the mind for many years now and can function more on Real Time. No more colds! All those cool results that we read about as kids in the magazines will surface. If, very very rare, you do come down with a cold its max 30% and gone fast but after 5 years its not likely. You can start managing the 8 meridians your, joints will be well lubed, tendons/sinews pliable, bones pakced and so on and so on.

Here is a simple test:

Stand in wuji. Pusture up and relax. Just be aware of your posture, relaxation and soft dan tien breathing. Try it for 10 minutes? How many times do you get distracted with thoughts? Everytime you blink a 1000 thoughts come into your head! No joke! If we cant function on Real Time standing still how do we do it in heated combat? It is said that the average person breaths about 15-16 breaths per minute. Lower it to 8 and you stimulate the Pituitary Body. Lower it to 5 and you stimulate the Pineal Gland. Heighten Awareness funtcioning on Real Time for Combat.

When we think about this as combat building pieces we can see that they all balance each other out for the performance machine. Your body will not have a Break On while driving it. Allowing also for more Speed/Deep/Heavy yet Alive (springy) Power. This is why the resulting Ging/DNA is different between arts. Dip Gwat Gong (bone/rib work) of the South Mantis will not produce the Keng Geng of Yi Quan etc.. If someone reads: South Mantis Kuit: Gee Hon Hop Yit Da you will think its the same ending product but as they say: Similar but Different.

I ask about the alchemical process description stuff because its part of the Internal discussion. When you read about internal being discussed, and this mysterious Chi thing, you can see a lot from the posts. The posts remind me of the common, If you just do deep breathing and good posture it will happen bingo. :p I tried that, no luck. :)


Thanks,

[Jim Roselando]

Thought the White Crane guys would like to see some of this. Its a bunch of clips of Southern Mantis. Eric! You mention the Mor Sao (grinding). You will see a lot of that on here!

N-Joy


Circa 1956: Jook Lum South Mantis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZHpJUC2B_g

Circa 1963: Jook Lum South Mantis: GM Lum Sang/Students

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4gf97u1mhg

Som Bo Gin (Jook Lum): Jack Man, Louie Sifu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LLjmZbNOTE&mode=related&search=

Jook Lum light play against Choy Li Fut: Gin Foon, Mark Sifu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeoiClKTXU4&mode=related&search=

***

Chow Gar South Mantis: Yip Chee Kung Sifu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6mDkP9mjBU&mode=related&search=

Chow Gar South Mantis: Paul Whitrod Sifu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obUQNsv-6gU&NR=1

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Brian,


Thanks for the responce. For me, there really is just wing chun. Small differences running between the arts. Including all south fist there really is only small differences.

Oh! I just remembered something I wanted to have you check out.

I would be careful with the Lo Kwai system when using it as a guage for LJ. Kuen Kuit number 7 is from the so-called Weng Chun art;

Lo Kwai Kuit: teng nuo yee shun shuok

Tang/Lo Kuit: Ta Mo Yee Shun Shuok

I wanted to mention that to you when we were exchanging some e-mails not too long ago but i forgot. It stuck out for me. Could be right or could be wrong but worth looking into.


Gotta run!

[Hendrik]

So some displays of how all these “internal” knowledge and awareness get translated to “kung fu” perhaps?





Eric siheng,

In today's high tech language,

We human being see this world with two type of perception. One is via mind, and one is via awareness.

Mind perception is a non real time because mind process with past data to predict the future, it is a type of projection pereption.

Awareness perception is a real time perception because it deal with Now, or this instant without any projection.


Internal training or Nie Kung disregard of style Shao Lin, Emei, or Wudang. Or Christianity, or Doism, or Buddhism, all started with Let Go the Mind Perception. in Christianity, it called Let Go and Let God or Surrender to God, In Daoist it called Dao Mimic Nature or Wu Wei, in Zen Buddhism it called Let Go. in the modern Qigung term, it called Enter into Silence. This is the first step that lead one to enter the Awareness perception state or the Real time state.


How is this map into Kung Fu? it is simply once the droping of the mind speculative perception, one easily shift from Xing Shen Boo Ding (heart and Shen not stable), or Xing Luan (heart chaos) to Xing Ding Shen Xian (heart still and Shen with ease)

it is in the Xing Ding Shen Xian or real time, one lead the body with intention; then, breathing will become nature spontaneous instead of holding or stop breathing when excited.

so, When two person face off, the first thing is how Still is one's Xing. If the mind is not shut off, then the mind is spining trying to predict the future and calculate and generate all kind of "if this if that..." generate all kind of fear in mind and tension in the body that will disturb one's focus and ability. IMHO, that has shown one has already lost 80%.


It is from this Awareness platform that Qi and other body functions cultivated. Thus, it is said, Yi Kau Dan Da or skill high Gut big (brave), that is because the high skill Knows what is going on and what needs to be done, instead of using the mind to speculate and blind oneself out or even cause accident.




So, the machine, when one is having heavy mind activity, it will show heavy beta wave. when one's mind activity is cut and ease, beta wave drops and alfa wave surface.... (more complex but simplify here for explaination)



So, could we time when Qi will surface? IMHO, thus I have heard, if the mind wave get into alfa, the breathing drop naturaly to under 4 rep/mins, the body is letting go and loose, the intention is stable into one area, the awareness is clear. Then, pay attention on the exhale phase for a few minutes, Qi will be easily notice travel from under solar plexus to Dan Dien area in a form of heat. first will heat up solar plexus area. or the body will move according to Qi's path. without these type of kung fu, the cultivation of qi is hopeless.

However, I suggest people dont try this if they dont have a sifu, because the real question is when the Qi surface how will one handle it and send it back?


so, to go for advance kung fu, thus I have heard, if one couldnot enter the Xing Ching Young Yee or silence the heart/mind using Intention. one cant do it. one's training always will be training the sets or form but cannot applied it in the real time. this is because one has no way to stablely enter the real time at will.


Saying that , I also has to mention that, we all born with different combination weight of mind perception and Awareness perception, some is more mind, some is more awareness. But there are technics to develop both instead of stuck in mind perception as we grow older and older. as we said the older we are the more worry and thinking we have.

IMHO
The first thing in training the WCK SLT set is about entering into real time, silence the heart/mind using intention. Thus, as I mention in the other post on the Siu Lim Tau clip, the performer doesnt have this training, he is trying his best intending to make a perfect demonstration. but his mind is keeping thinking to see if there is anything wrong he needs to correct. That get him into shen not settle and thus cant get much out of the training due to the body become contradict with itself. and one can observe all these because there are signature all over the place started from his eyes movements....etc IMHO

in additional,
for the past 150 years since the red boat era, how many in my own lineage could enter the state to carry out the training as the written record of Yik Kam at will?, . and what is the signature when they could do these? those were one of my research topic.

However, to point out issues and disagree with others via reality, often lead to being accuse of high ego as we know no one including ourself love problem. and, in the reality, if one cant enter into the real time state, one just off mark.

IMHO, since we would not like to hear our evaluation from others. Thus, I rather promote machine to tell the truth to ourself.

Mas oyama, my sijo said it well, "Just do it when you spare and do kata."
IMHO, That is about enter into the real time NOW and unify the mind and body.
otherwise, it is just too much thinking and distraction. as he also fuse into his Kyokushin, that IMHO is a way to by-passed the mind which react too slow. For me, that is about enter into the real time. or, Use awareness not mind for high speed action. IMHO



If we could not enter into the Now or enter into the Awareness perception, then, we will not know what is Nature. this is because if we are keeping thinking/speculate/predict future with past data, or following programming instruction with our mind similar to a robot and not knowing about our state of mind then we are doom.



Entering into the present is the first step of the journey.

Thus, the Yik Kam lineage SLT kuen kuit said, Collect the Yee , Meeting with the Shen, while in the Equal Shoulder Stance. in another word, Called back your attention, turn off your thoughts generation, let go and let god, in the Equal shoulder stance.

However, saying the above, what I present above is still didnt get into the topic of so how to do it? Tand How to do it has to do with Kung Fa and every style or lineage will have a different approaches... there is where different lineages or style uniqueness comes in. IMHO


just some thoughts.



Best Regards
Hendrik

[mantis108]

...

3. The new addition is that of the so called alchemy process, the transformations during and after Qigong practice.

Additon? This could be my fault as I started talking about it with the whole Wai/Noi subject. I never read the whole discussion from the beginning!

I believe that's where the problem is and how the debate started. I think Shaolin Master recognized this and pointed it out. The Kung Fu training process does not equate alchemy process. There is a parallel but it's not necessarily the same. The language of the theories of both processes largely derive from Chinese worldview namely the Yijing (classic of change). This is the problem why a lot of people confuse Kung Fu - martial arts - training with the hocus pocus stuff. A Kung Fu stylist can do "internal" alchemy, which to me is more towards the realm of meditation, at the same time and may experience exponential growth in both fields. They don't have to be mutually exclusive but it doesn't mean that one is superior than the other. This is again a misguided elistist thinking IMHO. It's the same mindset of people who advocate no freeweights training in Kung Fu training. Forgive me for being blunt and pardon my saying so, that's just BS. You get the benefit of training all these methods but the only issue is where your focus is while you are juggling with limited time, resources and lifestyle.


...
From my experience you need minimum one year to get the body almost ready for training. This is with an average of a couple of specific stretches and jam Jong 20-30 minutes daily. (or wing chun method but I will describe a little Jam Jong as its simpler on screen) After the first year the body starts to begin to sample natural regulating. Still no real or significatnt qi stuff by the way. You have to be more patient hahaha. .... The feeling is best describes as yang sheng process to bring one to the natural state. By year 4 your body is gettting in good shape. All sorts of stuff will be in your control inside. You will also have been letting go in the mind for many years now and can function more on Real Time. No more colds! All those cool results that we read about as kids in the magazines will surface. If, very very rare, you do come down with a cold its max 30% and gone fast but after 5 years its not likely. You can start managing the 8 meridians your, joints will be well lubed, tendons/sinews pliable, bones pakced and so on and so on.

Thank you for sharing the info. It is your experience and it is good for what it is. That being said ... while you are ranting on who knows what and who's the real deal, you are in fact, dare I say, exposing the fact that you are doing "secular" practice of would be alchemy to put it nicely; or should I say whoever taught you don't do very "authentic " internal alchemy but they "seemingly" talk the talk and walk the walk. Because of that, you assume that no one has the experience; therefore, could not pick apart what you are saying. I am not a good poker player but I know a bluff is a bluff, my friend. Unlike those "masters", I don't make any claims and I am not a master but that doesn't mean that I am ignorant.

I don't know about all schools but I have experience with at least 3 types of "Gong" each have initiation rites and all. Each has to observe abstience and straight disciplines for varying periods of time (100 days or 40 days). During this period, a lot of assignments to meet. Those you'd get the cues from your Sifu, Guru, Sufi, etc. There are exercises related to all five senses (relating to organs) and 7 emotions (layers of mind). You do that with your Sifu, Guru, Sufi, etc.. before even going into "stilling" the mind (minding the breath and all that's just homework). Those you do over and over again as gong. It's not just playing dead! There's plenty of aliveness, awareness, conciousness (whatever labels you like). You would know the difference right away not one, two or three years unless of course the "teacher" don't know what he's doing. It's not about building Qi or whatever (you already have that as you were born with it). You can refine Qi but you can't accumulate Qi to let it grow in volume (that's martial novel myth and Qi vampire BS). All your teacher is doing is to guide you. Depending on the methodology, he might "place" his conciousness on you. There is nothing to build other than you open up yourself completely which is what the initial exercises are about. You feel the Qi becoming more intense (as if it's grown in volume) is because you are better able to refine it and you are better at sensing it. As I am not qualified as a teacher of this I can't go on any further. But that's internal alchemy/meditaion 101. The lessons are designed according to specific needs and situations. That's why you need a Sifu not a machine. Do you think the heart sutra just mentions the senses and layers of mind while talking about "emptyness" for no good reason? Think again. Chinese Alchemy langauge express basically the same as the Buddhist sutras but from a different perpective that's all. To recognize what immortality really is about and/or what existence really means is the first step toward being a Bodhisattva or whatever label you prefer. BTW do you realize that many of the older generation folks who worked in the fields don't get sick (cold or flu) easily either, that's because hard labour also strengthen their immune system. In my childhood, we used to have domestic helps in the household, whom I can remember never seem them being sick and skip work even a day. Do they do any sort Alchemy? No, nada! Their Alchemy is work and more chores. All in all, this is not martial arts/ Kung Fu practice but there is no harm to do martial arts with it.

Anyway, I don't intend to belittle anyone's experience but please don't assume that there's no one out there walking the path just as hard as you are. Just don't lump martial arts/Kung Fu together with Alchemy; otherwise, we will only argue in circles.


Here is a simple test:

Stand in wuji. Pusture up and relax. Just be aware of your posture, relaxation and soft dan tien breathing. Try it for 10 minutes? How many times do you get distracted with thoughts? Everytime you blink a 1000 thoughts come into your head! No joke! If we cant function on Real Time standing still how do we do it in heated combat? It is said that the average person breaths about 15-16 breaths per minute. Lower it to 8 and you stimulate the Pituitary Body. Lower it to 5 and you stimulate the Pineal Gland. Heighten Awareness funtcioning on Real Time for Combat.

You do have good info. but you are very oppotunistic (just like Hendrik) in your choice of terminology. One moment it's Wuji and Dan Tian, then all of a sudden you going to Pituitary body and Pineal Gland. It would seem as though you are cherry picking whichever set of anatomy lingo suits your needs in formulating your argument. BTW, you are right, it's a simple test indeed.


When we think about this as combat building pieces we can see that they all balance each other out for the performance machine. Your body will not have a Break On while driving it. Allowing also for more Speed/Deep/Heavy yet Alive (springy) Power. This is why the resulting Ging/DNA is different between arts. Dip Gwat Gong (bone/rib work) of the South Mantis will not produce the Keng Geng of Yi Quan etc.. If someone reads: South Mantis Kuit: Gee Hon Hop Yit Da you will think its the same ending product but as they say: Similar but Different.

Please provide a case where you had to face potential mortal danger (ie facing a thief with a knife). Please describe, what went through your mind, what you saw, how you responded, etc. What move or moves may I ask did you use to come out on top or escape. I presume you spar with your style's techniques often, did you use any or all of them? Could you please tell us that if there is any difference in your perspective before and after the real life exchange. Did your nei gong and springy ging comes out naturally or intuitively?


I ask about the alchemical process description stuff because its part of the Internal discussion. When you read about internal being discussed, and this mysterious Chi thing, you can see a lot from the posts. The posts remind me of the common, If you just do deep breathing and good posture it will happen bingo. :p I tried that, no luck. :)

Thanks,

No offense, you don't seem to pay attention to what other people have to say (other than Hendrik) and you are very selective in formulating your arguement which is fine really. But how can you have a non biased and balance perspective when you are being selective with all thing let alone with presented material? You are entitle to your opinion for sure. If you have read my comments before, you would know that I have said that I don't have anything new to offer as I agreed with all my teach/mentors have gone through before me. So I use what is commonly known. It does mean that I have no experience to offer. I have always believe that humility is also a sign of enlightened/alchemist's mind if winning an arguement is that important to you, well by all means - you win (and so does Hendrik).

Warm regards

Mantis108

[byond1]

Hi Brothers,

This is going twords my thread discussions with Hendrik on, what is or isnt "Internal".

"The Kung Fu training process does not equate alchemy process. There is a parallel but it's not necessarily the same.' Mantis108



I agree completly. That is what i was attempting to get across to hendrik. That what he is describing as internal Kung Fu training, is in actuality Spiritual internal Alchemy training, and its not necessarily the same. - B



"Anyway, I don't intend to belittle anyone's experience but please don't assume that there's no one out there walking the path just as hard as you are. Just don't lump martial arts/Kung Fu together with Alchemy; otherwise, we will only argue in circles." Mantis 108


Yes, Huge circles with no end. - B



"while you are ranting on who knows what and who's the real deal, you are in fact, dare I say, exposing the fact that you are doing "secular" practice of would be alchemy to put it nicely; or should I say whoever taught you don't do very "authentic " internal alchemy but they "seemingly" talk the talk and walk the walk. Because of that, you assume that no one has the experience; therefore, could not pick apart what you are saying. I am not a good poker player but I know a bluff is a bluff, my friend."


This is the new trend in posting pioneered very recently, by one of our fellow posters. Letting everyone know, how little they know, being part of the inside Gang that "Knows", and rarly explaining what one "knows" to keep poker going.

Brian

[Hendrik]

I just wonder how do we here view the training/attainment.... of Excellent martial artists such as Sun Lu-Tang, Ma Li-Tang, Chen Man-Ching, Huang Sheng Shyan..?


Are they doing alchemist or doing martial arts?


and

How close is our Kung fu compare with them? is it any chance we know 1/10 of thier art in this life time? is it any change we know 1/100 of thier art in this life time? Do we have the proccess that could bring us that far to 1/10 or 1/100?


Please Share.

[Hendrik]

I believe that's where the problem is and how the debate started. I think Shaolin Master recognized this and pointed it out. The Kung Fu training process does not equate alchemy process. There is a parallel but it's not necessarily the same. The language of the theories of both processes largely derive from Chinese worldview namely the Yijing (classic of change). This is the problem why a lot of people confuse Kung Fu - martial arts - training with the hocus pocus stuff.....





Song of Enlightenment By Great Master Yung Chia of The T'ang Dynasty


"WRONG" IS NOT WRONG; "RIGHT" IS NOT RIGHT.

ERRING BY A HAIR'S BREADTH, ONE MISSES BY A THOUSAND MILES.

"RIGHT" WAS THE DRAGON-MAIDEN'S SUCCENLY ACHIEVING BUDDHAHOOD;

"WRONG" WAS GOOD STAR'S SINKING AND FALLING WHILE ALIVE.





"WRONG" IS NOT WRONG; "RIGHT" IS NOT RIGHT. In every cause and condition, and in cultivation and certification, there is right within the wrong, and there is also wrong within the right. It is a matter of whether the cultivator has fully developed his Selective Dharma Eye.

ERRING BY A HAIR'S BREADTH, ONE MISSES BY A THOUSAND MILES. If one is off by a hair's breadth, then one is certain tomiss by a thousand miles. How can one not be careful and serious in these matters?

"RIGHT" WAS THE DRAGON-MAIDEN'S SUDDENLY ACHIEVING BUDDHAHOOD. The Dragon-maiden presented her pearl as as offering to the Thus Come One, and immediately evidence the result of Buddhahood.

"WRONG" WAS GOOD STAR'S SINKING AND FALLING WHILE ALIVE. Good Star slandered the Dharma, inverting right and wrong. His retribution was immediately received; he fell alive into the suffering of the hells. In this matter of distinguishing right and wrong, cultivators should be especially wary.

[Eric Ling]

Hmmmm....

Watch out, Brother Hendrik is using his "random fists to kill fists Master" strategy :D :D :D

[Hendrik]

Hmmmm....

Watch out, Brother Hendrik is using his "random fists to kill fists Master" strategy :D :D :D



Hahaha

Siheng Eric,

IMHO, lots of people doesnt know about what is the reality of so called Lai Kang (fujian) and those stuffs on what to do with Lan Pah (fujian) ....etc.


Serious, decades ago, when I was in PG, one time a good skill Kung Fu man was taken into the Police due to some issue with Law. So, the Police beat him, but cant penetrate his body no matter how they beat him.

later, my siheng told me, some TCMAtist told the police to do such and such with his Lan Pah and ....etc. To disable him.

I then ask my sifu about these stuffs. Well, then later I learn even in White Crane.... there are internal teaching which deal about these seems to be unrelated alchemst stuffs..... there are tons of the internal stuffs .....which I then learn that I am so naive using the logical mind to think I know it all, and I dont.




So, IMHHHO, lot of people including me is naive when dealing with the real training with the logical way of reasoning. Not to say logical way is no good but logic has its strength and limitation when dealing with reality.


Thus, as it said,

IN MY EARLY YEARS, I SET OUT TO ACQUIRE LEARNING,

AND I STUDIED COMMENTARIES AND INQUIRED INTO SUTRAS AND SHASTRAS.

DISTINGUISHING AMONG TERMS AND CHARACTERISTICS, I DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO STOP.

ENTERING THE SEA TOCOUNT THE SANDS I EXHAUSTED MYSELF IN VAIN.

BUT THE THUS COME ONE REPRIMANDED THIS FOLLY:

WHAT BENEFIT IS THERE IN COUNTING OTHER'S TREASURES?!

UNSUCCESSFUL ALL ALONG, I FELT I HAD PRACTICED IN VAIN.

MANY YEARS I WASTED AS A TRANSIENT, LIKE DUST IN THE WIND.

IN MY EARLY YEARS, I SET OUT TO ACQUIRE LEARNING. Here the Great Master Yung Chia speaks about himself. "In the past, when I was young, I amassed a great deal of learning and sought after knowledge. I cultivated the teachings and contemplations of the T'ien T'ai. I never felt tired; I never wearied of it."

AND I STUDIED COMMENTARIES AND INQUIRED INTO SUTRAS AND SHASTRAS. I also research the commentaries and explanations of the ancient worthies, as well as the doctrines and principles of the Tripitaka (the Sutras, the Vinaya, and the Shastras).

DISTINGUISHING AMONG TERMS AND CHARACTERISTICS, I DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO STOP. All day long I made distinctions among the meanings of manes and characteristics, not knowing how to stop, wasting mu time futilely, letting the months and years slip by. How lamentable!

ENTERING THE SEA TO COUT THE SANDS I EXHAUSTED MUSELF IN VAIN. It was like entering the great sea to try to count the sand in it, to the last grain. How could it be done? In the sea of teaching, the terms and characteristics are as numerous as the sands of the ocean. Therefore, he says, "I exhausted myself in vain."

BUT THE THUS COOME ONE REPRIMANDED THIS FOLLY. I forsook the root to pursue the branches, searching far outside, for I did not kniw that I should turn the light around and illumine within. Therefore, I was scolded by the Thus Come One.

WHAT BENEFIT IS THERE IN COUNTING OTHERS' TREASURES? Counting others' jewels all day long, without even half a penny of your own, is a mistakes; it is failure to cultivate the Dharma. To cultivate the way, one must actually practice it personally and not pass one's time emptily, vainly wasting the months and years.

UNSUCCESSFUL ALL ALONG, I FELT I H;AD PRACTICED IN VAIN. From the beginning, I had gone nowhere with my time; I had wastede the years. There was not a hair's breadth of achievement. I felt that a whole life of practice was for nothing.

MANY YEARS I WASTED AS A TRANSIENT, LIKE DUST IN THE WIND. For many years I hurried to the east and ran tothe west, interviewing in the south and paying visits in the north; wandering the wrong roads, uselessly, like a transient who is dust in the wind. Alas! What a shame, and how sorrowful! We should ponder these words.



Best Regards

[Hendrik]

Eric siheng, lady and gentlemen,



Since it is saturday here and I have some time to burn, just to share some key points in the White Crane classical.



(chinese in madarin if not otherwise specific)


Xing and Shen requement--- Just the basic stuffs



1, in Thao Yuan Chuen Suh,

it said : ten method of facing oponent:

1, the still eyes.
2, the settle shen



in Yong Chun Zhen Li-Su Ciao Chuan Chuen Fa

it said: Chuen Fa Chong Loon

1, Eyes...
3 spirit,
4 xing ting (mind settle)..



in Tze Su Cieh Yau Tiao Yooen

it said:

Chuan Fa thousand door return to one path.... Thus using the will must be solid, That is Ning (condence) in Shen.



From the above, thus, if there is no undestanding of the handling of Shen and Xing. The training is incomplete.

and thus, this stuffs is not mumbo jumbo but real for those who knows what it is. and as I suggest, using the EEG machine is great because one then knows how to monitor the training and progress.




Chest opening ---- Just nature stuffs

in Bai Her Zhen Cia Fa

It said : 2, Siong Thiing Sien Kai, or open the chest....

It doesnt said fixed the elbow in the center line. That is opposite to what was written and practice for past 350 years.

So, some times, people said, "oh, WCK is from White Crane, so and so..." but look at it. what is the White Crane teaching in reality? are we selectively choose what needed to support our arguement or accept all reality. if it is from White Crane Yong Chun, the the chest has to be that way. otherwise, where is the teaching of fixing the elbow in the center line based from?




First teach the center qi------the basic again


in Fang Chi-Niang Chuen Chuw

It said :

the summary of teaching

1, First teach the zhong (center) Qi....


Zhong Qi is Dan Dien's Qi, following hands travel outward, travel out ward ....






Also



there is the method of action and stillness.
in stillness, 1, shen must be still, ease,.. 2, Qi needs to be still, Xing (heart/mind) settle no thoughts....

there is method of Chern Sen Tju Qi or sink the body and fill Qi,
sink body sinking the Da Chui, spine.....
fill the qi means An Ting Shen Min or settle the Shen with clarity..... needs to be condence the shen and accumulate the qi....
fill Qi





So with the above classics what is the reality?








IMHO, Training in kung fu and doing research in Kung Fu is not about sit on sofa and read chinese classic or browse web.

One needs to train with sifu who has the transmission of Lineage or Chuan Zhen (passing and transmission) otherwise, it doesnt work well.

and also, As I told Shadow, Art needs to be realized instead of collect all the data and thinking one know, in fact one has no idea what is goiing on, what works, how is it work.

Is
Taking the path of knowing some term in the mind and thinking one knows it all and being open minded everything is OK a proper path?

Nope it is not proper, could the training work? that is the final analysis. what to argue? know is know, dont know then doesnt matter all the theories. it is not about some creating thinking class in school. IMHO

For those who is interest in doing Research on the root of the art. IMHO, one needs to attain indepth kung Fu of one's style before one could start the journey. otherwise, it will become book reading collector, oh this is righ, oh that is also right, so what is what? anyone dont believe me? just ask around about the uniqueness of the person's style power generation method, and see how many could clearly know how and why it was done, what is the characteritics...etc

or even more simple ask what is the different between Da (hit) and Fa (issue) what is the different interm of handling of the mind, breathing/qi, and body to carry out these two operation? without this type of understanding we must be kidding oneself and others on just because we read some classical or doing some translation and thinking they could verify this and that.

So what is Fa and what is Ta?


Why is it said " Kuen Choong sam fat" or punch issue from heart instead of Kuen Choong Sam Da or punch hit from heart?

What is needed to Faat or Fa? What is needed for Da. If it is not up to this depth and this detail, forget about this research or that research or to the worst trying to verify others because we ourself have collect more books imformation.

See, Chinese Martial art has lots of deep stuffs which one will not be able to comprehend if one's kung fu is not at that level. So, just cant play the know it all game and fuzzily think this is equal to that and such and such. IMHO





Saying too much is no good but what is the truth? that we need to all watch carefully. I see this is a matter of level of education. let's face it most of us doesnt know how the chinese of 1900 and before function. unless we have the lineage transmission from the sifu. and also one needs to realized and mastering (or Thong or penetrate).


Finally,



Since Eric and mine Sukong is Sek Koh Sam
http://www.kungfu-supply.nl/sekkohsam/china.htm
is from the Zen school

here I post the stanza of the Zen school again

THE COMPLETE AND SUDDEN TEACHING IS WITHOUT SENTIMENT,

IF THERE IS DOUBT AND INDECISION, YOU SHOULD CONFRONT IT DIRECTLY.

IT IS NOT THAT THE MOUNTAIN SANGHAN INDULGES IN SELF AND OTHERS;

IT'S ONLY TO BE FEARED CULTIVATORS MIGHT FALL INTO THE PIT OF NIHILISM OR ETERNALISM.

THE COMPLETE AND SUDDEN TEACHING IS WITHOUT SENTIMENT. The Dharma-door of the Complete and Sudden Teaching includes and unites the oceans of teachings and their measureless Dharma-doors. In it, there is not so much as a hair's breadth of sentimental influence.

IF THERE IS COUBT AND INDECISION, YOU SHOULD CONFRONT IT DIRECTLY. If there is any principle which is not yet understood, or some remaining doubt and indecision, then the matter must be straightforwardly discussed so that true principle can be clarified.

IT IS NOT THAT THE MOUNTAIN SANGHAN INDULGES IN SELF AND OTHER. By no means am I, the mountain Sanghan, falsely indulging in views of self and others or of right and wrong.

IT'S ONLY TO BE FEARED CULTIVATORS MIGHT FALL INTO THE PIT OF NIHILISM OR ETERNALISM. It is to be feared that people who cultivate the way will not understand True Principle, and will confound black and white and right and wrong. By becoming attached to nihilism or eternalism, they will fall into a pit.




I am imperfect and still have many junior things to learn. Since I have post what my view above, I rest this case with you all. It is all about technology, I respect everyone disregard of position with technology. As for those of us who love to play words game of approval etc conscious or subconsciously, that is not going to do any good for the technology but get others stuck.



Best Regards
Hendrik

[kung fu fighter]

Eric and Brian,

what exactly is refered to as handling the chest or chest bowing in white crane or wing chun. what's the bio-mechanics involved, and what's it's purpose?

Hendrik posted this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5MRWO9Pw6k

But it's in chinese, so i couldn't understand the explanation

[Eric Ling]

Hi,

For White Crane, the basics involved is like than of a arrow-bow mechanics and this is also in line with our doctrine of “whipping” with the waist as the prime driver. The “swallowing” or “collapsing” is controlled by the waist and this result in the first “bowing”.

The second is the chest area, again like chambering for the hands to whip out.


The clip;-

The front portion, I was talking to her about the forms that they do in GM Kan Teck Guan’s Wuzu or 5 Ancestors Kung Fu.

Then midpoint, Sidai starting moving and I noticed her strong “short” jing.

She explained how she lift her “chi” to the shoulder area and from there launch.

According to her, in that short space, to use chi direct from dantien without lifting causes internal injuries.

Warmest Regards.

Eric.

Brother Hendrik, I am preparing for my travel tomorrow but I will get back to you on your long essay regarding White Crane classical text.

[Hendrik]

She explained how she lift her “chi” to the shoulder area and from there launch.

According to her, in that short space, to use chi direct from dantien without lifting causes internal injuries.

Warmest Regards.

Eric.

Brother Hendrik, I am preparing for my travel tomorrow but I will get back to you on your long essay regarding White Crane classical text.


Eric siheng,

Dont pay much attention to my bubbling. just one ear in one ear out entertainment lah! hahaha

Have a great journey !




As for the Short Jing, Short Space, Chi, use Chi, and manual of the chest....etc

Some accused me of being this or that, you see, they took me wrong.

my bottom line is I hope no one is unknowingly causing Internal injury due to fixing and closing down ..... beside when it comes to short Jing, that need to look closely at because whoever have the smooth short jing generation better then others always have an advantages, IMHO, one just cant close the eyes and thinking we are the best without knowing other's technology.


Finally, I really appreciate what SiDai is revealing because these stuffs if not reveal one could train for a whole life but cant get into the door.

This is important stuffs. IMHO

Just some thoughts.



Best Regards
Hendrik

[Hendrik]

Thanks Eric,

By chambering are you refering to the pulling back of the shoulder joint (independantly of the rest of the body) and then sinking it as you drive forward to strike.

Can you explain the bio-mechanics involved?




"By lifting her chi" is she refering to the whipping power coming up the spine from the waist bow to the shoulder?


Kung fu fighter,

IMHO

You need to have a certain attainment to know what is it.


Baisi to an experience master such as SiDai to train one. and it takes time say 2 to 3 years in general before one could have a foundation to know it.... IMHO


that is the best and shortest path to know this stuffs. It is not up for imagination and mind speculation, that is for sure. So, dont reason, but know it via a sifu. IMHO


BTW, your spine and etc taiji type of model doesnt fit in well here. Those are good general Taiji type of model but it doesnt always fit in all style. Thus, using this type of model thinking to speculate is IMHO do oneself a dis-service to get one into more counfusion. IMHO

bio mechenics is good only after one know it.


and what is Qi? until that is clear the rest of speculation doesnt represent reality much.. iMHO

Best regards
Hendrik

[kung fu fighter]

The second is the chest area, again like chambering for the hands to whip out.

She explained how she lift her “chi” to the shoulder area and from there launch.

Thanks Eric,

By chambering are you refering to the pulling back of the shoulder joint (independantly of the rest of the body) and then sinking it as you drive forward to strike.

Can you explain the bio-mechanics involved?



She explained how she lift her “chi” to the shoulder area and from there launch.

"By lifting her chi" is she refering to the whipping power coming up the spine from the waist bow to the shoulder?

[canglong]

originally posted by mantis 108
I am sorry Hendrik can dress it up in any way he wants with his believes but that's not art or science that's consumerism pure and simple. I know that I sounded negative and all but I would rather be blunt and direct than bitting around the bush about it. I have nothing against Hendrik since I have not met him in person. He might be the most kind hearted and wonderful person there is, and I also am not suggesting that he has bad intention of any kind. I am just saying that if we look deeper into the issue we will see the method and the notion that he is suggesting have a far more negative effect than positive effect in Kung Fu practice.
Mantis,
A good portion of the miscommunication has and continues to be that hendrik likes to speak to issues from a position of master or authoritarian neither of which apply. He places a good deal of value on his own opinion and very little into the opinion of others regardless of experience.
originally posted by Mantis 108
You know Hendrik, when Shaolin Master mentioned about arrogance, I felt that he might be a bit harsh. But now that you use some silly novice quote (properly from a $1.25 Ren Men Bi book that you can get in any Chinese book store) to do your rebuttal, I am starting to think that he is right. Your ego is really blindsiding you, my friend. I asked if you have concrete scientific report from those experiements that you hold so highly but you instead giving me some unknown writer who did nothing more that regurgitating something that every Chinese who have some degree of Kung Fu training can come across. The person or persons who wrote those passages at best have superficial knowledge of Qigong not to mention they properly haven't had any real Kung Fu experience. Sadly everything you state is true and has been experienced by others in early conversations with hendrik.

[Jim Roselando]

Mantis108/Robert wrote:


The Kung Fu training process does not equate alchemy process. There is a parallel but it's not necessarily the same. The language of the theories of both processes largely derive from Chinese worldview namely the Yijing (classic of change). This is the problem why a lot of people confuse Kung Fu - martial arts - training with the hocus pocus stuff. A Kung Fu stylist can do "internal" alchemy, which to me is more towards the realm of meditation, at the same time and may experience exponential growth in both fields. They don't have to be mutually exclusive but it doesn't mean that one is superior than the other. This is again a misguided elistist thinking IMHO. It's the same mindset of people who advocate no freeweights training in Kung Fu training. Forgive me for being blunt and pardon my saying so, that's just BS.

Interesting post but I have to disagree with you. All this stuff is part of the whole package. Sicne this is Yi Quan or Wing Chun we are talking about I say its Martial Art. Especially since its the Martial Art platform that is Cultivating this stuff. There can be no evoke of Qi without quiet/calm the mind emotions etc.. The parallels are indeed there with other esoteric practices but to think its different is your opinion which is cool. Most people tend to focus on the Wai aspects and never dive into this realm. Its easy to reject stuff that is foreign to your practice but since all great masters and arts preserve these traditiions I have to go along with whats known. Please do not confuse the arts ROOTED in STILLNESS with the 3 battle arts but dont forget that the 3 Battle arts like South Mantis are big time into San Da/Shen Gong. I guess both the stillness rou arts & 3 battle systems have this stuff?

108 wrote;

Thank you for sharing the info. It is your experience and it is good for what it is. That being said ... while you are ranting on who knows what and who's the real deal, you are in fact, dare I say, exposing the fact that you are doing "secular" practice of would be alchemy to put it nicely; or should I say whoever taught you don't do very "authentic " internal alchemy but they "seemingly" talk the talk and walk the walk. Because of that, you assume that no one has the experience; therefore, could not pick apart what you are saying. I am not a good poker player but I know a bluff is a bluff, my friend. Unlike those "masters", I don't make any claims and I am not a master but that doesn't mean that I am ignorant.

We can only talk about our own experiences with our own cultivation. Something you seem unwilling to do. ;) Its easy to complain but still not own word of your own development.


108 wrote:

I don't know about all schools but I have experience with at least 3 types of "Gong" each have initiation rites and all. Each has to observe abstience and straight disciplines for varying periods of time (100 days or 40 days). During this period, a lot of assignments to meet. Those you'd get the cues from your Sifu, Guru, Sufi, etc. There are exercises related to all five senses (relating to organs) and 7 emotions (layers of mind). You do that with your Sifu, Guru, Sufi, etc.. before even going into "stilling" the mind (minding the breath and all that's just homework). Those you do over and over again as gong. It's not just playing dead! There's plenty of aliveness, awareness, conciousness (whatever labels you like).

Thats cool. Basic body conditioning stuff to prep the body.

108 wrote:


You would know the difference right away not one, two or three years unless of course the "teacher" don't know what he's doing. It's not about building Qi or whatever (you already have that as you were born with it). You can refine Qi but you can't accumulate Qi to let it grow in volume (that's martial novel myth and Qi vampire BS).

ROFLOL Let me guess. They told you for 40 days or 108 days to conserve the sperm? The primal life of the body. Why is that hmmmm? I agree with you tho! You will certainly start feeling the effects on the body within a few weeks and then months but the transmutiion of Jing - Qi is not going to happen so easily my man. To practice Qi Gong and not go thru the Jing - Qi/Qi - Shen what is there to talk really disscuss.

108 wrote;

All your teacher is doing is to guide you. Depending on the methodology, he might "place" his conciousness on you. There is nothing to build other than you open up yourself completely which is what the initial exercises are about.

Open yourself up I totally agree with. Same for your teacher just being a guide.

108 wrote;

You feel the Qi becoming more intense (as if it's grown in volume) is because you are better able to refine it and you are better at sensing it. As I am not qualified as a teacher of this I can't go on any further. But that's internal alchemy/meditaion 101.

Very interesting approach and theory. Different from most i have experienced.


108 :

The lessons are designed according to specific needs and situations. That's why you need a Sifu not a machine.

All systems have progressive platforms for development and any good sifu will adjust his teachign according to the pupils attributes. A machine is only good as a seperate check up or test guide for your own development. Needed? No! Helpfull? Yes!

108 wrote;

Do you think the heart sutra just mentions the senses and layers of mind while talking about "emptyness" for no good reason? Think again. Chinese Alchemy langauge express basically the same as the Buddhist sutras but from a different perpective that's all. To recognize what immortality really is about and/or what existence really means is the first step toward being a Bodhisattva or whatever label you prefer.

Its all the same stuff just with different frosting. Internal Arts rooted in Stillness share a lot with spritiual stuff. Why? They both are designed function in the now.

108:

BTW do you realize that many of the older generation folks who worked in the fields don't get sick (cold or flu) easily either, that's because hard labour also strengthen their immune system. In my childhood, we used to have domestic helps in the household, whom I can remember never seem them being sick and skip work even a day. Do they do any sort Alchemy? No, nada! Their Alchemy is work and more chores. All in all, this is not martial arts/ Kung Fu practice but there is no harm to do martial arts with it.

Sorry my friend. It certainly does have to do with the internal practice. A training partner is a doctor and we have discussed this stuff in length. Here is a little secret for you! I know I know! I'm a nice guy! hahaha Do you one of the reasons why you dont get sick? Disease cannot live in High Toxic type enviornment. :eek: When you have gone thru the chemical change you understand this as being part of it.

Anyway, I don't intend to belittle anyone's experience but please don't assume that there's no one out there walking the path just as hard as you are. Just don't lump martial arts/Kung Fu together with Alchemy; otherwise, we will only argue in circles.

We are discussing specific stuff on a forum. If I dont agree, I can certianly state my beliefs based on my experience. I dont understand your frustration as I recall you being the person who was apologizing for beign Blunt if I recall about your feelings towards a piece of modern equipment and Hendrik's posts. Are we talking any different?

108:

I have always believe that humility is also a sign of enlightened/alchemist's mind if winning an arguement is that important to you, well by all means - you win (and so does Hendrik).

This has nothing to do with winning but a discussion on the net about aspects of kung fu. I state my opinions based on my experience. Hendrik is but one person on the net that I share views with. There are many others and even if I dont agree with you or as you are/say; Am Blunt, I still appreciate the discussion as it helps me explain my own beliefs. Its all good. There is no winner just learning/growth.

[canglong]

Jim,
If you are the only example of someone with expereince in what hendrik is talking about or teaching then there is very little hope that what you two are trying to explain will ever pass muster. hendrik can't explain it and he's teaching it you have only been a student of his for a short time so your experience is limited.

Ultimately though you using hendrik as your example have mistaken his method for THE method and that is blatanly wrong.

[Jim Roselando]

Tony/Brian,

T:

Appreciate your input.

Hendrik talks about Rou cultivation of body/mind/breath. The teaching and writing parallels all classic rou teaching/writing. Real simple stuff. Read any of the classic writing from Wang Xiang Zhai and others of this rou cultivation and you will get the same stuff. A lot of people do this. You just need to go to a chat room with those people chit chatting on there.

B:

This is the new trend in posting pioneered very recently, by one of our fellow posters. Letting everyone know, how little they know, being part of the inside Gang that "Knows", and rarly explaining what one "knows" to keep poker going.

Brian, if two people share/discuss, and both dont agree, it doesn't matter who says what or believes what! :) Anyone can say anything they want so its not about some inside gang but rather these discussions are getting much more detailed and when this happens the generic cushy make everyone feel good replies are not going to be there or be accepted.

People complain when they dont share what they do and people complain when they do. There really is no way to make everyone happy so everyone does their best to state their beliefs. No matter how passionately someone debates thier stuff, its only ones own experience that is the vehicle for personal truth. Who cares what people say basically! :cool:

You answered Roberts post:

The Kung Fu training process does not equate alchemy process. There is a parallel but it's not necessarily the same.' Mantis108

I agree completly. That is what i was attempting to get across to hendrik. That what he is describing as internal Kung Fu training, is in actuality Spiritual internal Alchemy training, and its not necessarily the same. - B

What is the platform being used to achieve the internal process?

Martial Art Platform! Mind/Body/Breathing martial art systems.


Gotta run,

[Eric Ling]

Hi kung fu fighter,

By chambering are you refering to the pulling back of the shoulder joint (independantly of the rest of the body) and then sinking it as you drive forward to strike.

You are right but this whole waist/shoulder “bowing” is done in a smooth manner with little posturing and the only break is between launches of each whip.(Whooping Crane especially)

Don’t really know how to explain the “bio” bit but when I was learning, my teachers keep referring to bow/arrow mechanics…

In Sidai’s case, not so much transferring whipping from waist to spine but rather lifting to the shoulder and then launching from there.

Notice how still the rest of her body looks and seemingly only her hands are moving.

What I don’t see is the “spitting and swallowing” and this I attributed to the fact that Sidai is a real high hand.

In fact she was launching and talking at the same time and still exude tremendous jing.

You got to be there to know what I mean…..

Warmest Regards.

Eric

Ps it is just my imagination or did you just change from a 4 level to a forward stance?:D

[canglong]

Brother Hendrik
With all due respect,
Your ego is getting the best of you. Please reflect on your actions. You cant even let go of something as simple, as someone disagreeing with you. All over the internet, you have to try to show others, how little they know, and that they could never hope to understand ~Your~ information or methods (which, as others have brought to your attention, many have access to). And everyone speculates but you?? Jim,
This is quite different from -"these discussions are getting much more detailed and when this happens the generic cushy make everyone feel good replies are not going to be there or be accepted. " You and hendrik always act as if your audience is beneath you and you both know more than everyone else just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean you know more than them. Both of you talk a lot but listen little at some point you might want to change that.

[Jim Roselando]

Tony,

Jim,
This is quite different from -"these discussions are getting much more detailed and when this happens the generic cushy make everyone feel good replies are not going to be there or be accepted. "

I am my own person, Hendrik is Hendrik. I dont press his keyboard only he does. You post one person who was not happy with one of HS posts. Cool. Should I post one that enjoys it and go back and forth? Join in the technical discussion if you like rather than use one persons post to support your long time love for HS. :p

You and hendrik always act as if your audience is beneath you and you both know more than everyone else just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean you know more than them. Both of you talk a lot but listen little at some point you might want to change that.

Consider Mantis108 own words:

So we can't be complacent and let false pretence to take advantage of kind nature. I don't particularly care about what particualr person say certain things and I am not upset in this discussion. But I do believe something is off and I should take a stand. That's all.(勇者無懼以膽為先) Between harmony and truth, I will pick truth any day.

We all have passion for what we do! As you can see, others feel the same when debating their info..

Funny how you focus on the negative but I see a lot of sharing going on. Lots! I even see a lot of I agree but also feel this or that going on. Agree and disagree stuff which is the norm. Look how many different disciplines are sharing here! All roads lead to Fujian! hahaha So, even tho we argue there is still more positive going on! Its perfectly normal for people to debate with passion amigo.

I know you dont agree with WC/Crane connection which is cool but why not jump in with some technical discussion. I'm suprised you haven't jumped in on the Dip Gwat/Bone Rib topic. I thought you guys had a set called Kuen Jong that was similar in your art?

Thanks for sharing.


Gotta run!
Jim

[canglong]

I know you dont agree with WC/Crane connection which is cool but why not jump in with some technical discussion. I'm suprised you haven't jumped in on the Dip Gwat/Bone Rib topic. I thought you guys had a set called Kuen Jong that was similar in your art?
Exactly the point, you yourself know that everyone practices something similiar to what everyone else practices so the details do matter but never in yours or hendrik's conversations on line unless it's to your advantage that is. You both seem to always think that you are enlightening or informing someone with "technical information" which is anything but there are never enough details to make heads or tails out of what hendrik is trying to pass off as training his replies to those that question this are you just don't know enough to understand what is being said.

The fact that the same people show up perpetuating this same old song and dance doesn't mean its gaining ground it just means you have a new thread with the same old song and dance. When someone did try to add some techincal discussion hendrik and yourself were so receptive to the ideas that you drove them away from the discussion. The last question I asked you about your snake & crane article was ignored wonder why that is.

Quote:
In the old days, and even today, if people were from different villages (or systems) they would not associate. This sort of tribal mentality was normal for the times. If these two arts had no relations then the chance of interaction would have been next to impossible.

Quote:
Throughout the history of Wing Chun and Weng Chun these two systems have long interacted with each other.

Jim,
Care to clarify this apparent contradiction.

[byond1]

Jim -

We agree its impossible to make , everyone happy all the time, or probably - Anyone happy, any of the time. So little point in trying.:)

But the so called "Names" in WCK, are getting tiresome, as they are the ones, who think everyone, happens to know nothing, except them, and they are the only authorities. When the "No Names" - are the true unsung heros of the WCK world. Passing down the true art, to those that deserve it.

Facinating when people speculate, from a point of ignorance.
Ignorance (Uninformed), because they are speculating, when they have never met and experianced the people, they ~think~ they know.
Thats all an illusion though. A trick of the ego, to make one feel superior.

Lineage doesnt matter to many of them, as the truth about lineage is something that doesnt work in their favor, many times. or the opposite, they let lineage blow up their ego.
Lineage, to me, is simply the path the knowlege has took within a particular family. And their system is their specific/family approach, IMO. A strong Lineage, shows a strong link to the Knowledge within the family. Nothing more. If one doesnt train it for oneself it means nothing. And if one isnt linked directly to the Lineage, and hasnt trained, they cant speak for their specific lineage or branch, only themselves. Many times someones "Standing" in a Lineage reflects the purity of their info though.

I do agree with, "Who has the skill is Senior" - But that doesnt give one entitlment as inheritor or spokesperson, nor the right to attempt to devalue others knowledge.




What is the platform being used to achieve the internal process?
Martial Art Platform! Mind/Body/Breathing martial art systems. JR



+++We can agree to disagree, as i think- not necessarily.

There are non MA platfoms. There is Internal with very little true Alchemy. And true esoteric alchemy is the operating system to the human organizm, and isnt necessarily attached at all to MA Platforms. Usually only small parts are of the whole of the training and knowledge is found with in "Internal" kung Fu, wether it have or have not MA aspects.
Very few systems are like Emie, that offer a complete package , IMO.

[Jim Roselando]

Tony wrote:

Exactly the point, you yourself know that everyone practices something similiar to what everyone else practices so the details do matter but never in yours or hendrik's conversations on line unless it's to your advantage that is.

Sorry! I disagree. Just because I dont believe everything is everything it still does not mean I dont respect other art/training. The difference is I dont believe what is not Rou is ok to be called Rou. Example: Kind of like Kuen Jong/Dip Gwat stuff. :eek: Its all real cool but not Soft cultivation IMO. So, its right (because its good training) and wrong (because its not at all Rou)!! This is where we agree and disagree.


Tony wrote:


Quote:
In the old days, and even today, if people were from different villages (or systems) they would not associate. This sort of tribal mentality was normal for the times. If these two arts had no relations then the chance of interaction would have been next to impossible.

Quote:
Throughout the history of Wing Chun and Weng Chun these two systems have long interacted with each other.

Jim,
Care to clarify this apparent contradiction.

What contradiction? Read slowly amigo. ;) I'm saying the two arts share a common root hence why they associate. And you wonder why I avoid you. :confused: Seems like many others also find a common root in the Fukien White Crane. A system with 350 years of written record/effect on many many arts.

As usual. No technical discussion.

Peace,
Jim

[Jim Roselando]

Brian wrote:


Jim -

We agree its impossible to make , everyone happy all the time, or probably - Anyone happy, any of the time. So little point in trying.

But the so called "Names" in WCK, are getting tiresome, as they are the ones, who think everyone, happens to know nothing, except them, and they are the only authorities. When the "No Names" - are the true unsung heros of the WCK world. Passing down the true art, to those that deserve it.

Facinating when people speculate, from a point of ignorance.
Ignorance (Uninformed), because they are speculating, when they have never met and experianced the people, they ~think~ they know.
Thats all an illusion though. A trick of the ego, to make one feel superior.

Lineage doesnt matter to many of them, as the truth about lineage is something that doesnt work in their favor, many times. or the opposite, they let lineage blow up their ego.
Lineage, to me, is simply the path the knowlege has took within a particular family. And their system is their specific/family approach, IMO. A strong Lineage, shows a strong link to the Knowledge within the family. Nothing more. If one doesnt train it for oneself it means nothing. And if one isnt linked directly to the Lineage, and hasnt trained, they cant speak for their specific lineage or branch, only themselves. Many times someones "Standing" in a Lineage reflects the purity of their info though.

I do agree with, "Who has the skill is Senior" - But that doesnt give one entitlment as inheritor or spokesperson, nor the right to attempt to devalue others knowledge. B


Sit 10 martial artists or practitioners of any art/game in a circle. Bring up a topic and sit and watch. Everyone debates their stuff as best they can and always people dont agree. No different for Internet Chat Rooms. We all speak for ourselves and represent what we have been taught and pass on or do. All info shared is valuable as it makes for great discussion. If Hendrik is talking abotu Yik Kam he talks from his experience with Cho Hung Choi sifu and others. He also brings along his research/experience with his discussion. Today, Unfortunately, we have to place lienage names when chatting online as it gets more specific. Similar how the Crane systems label, Eating, Jumping, Wooping etc.. Each ahve their own characteristics so the label helps when chatting. The tone of conversation jumps! Of course! Sometimes its even hard to hear yourself being criticized by others publically which has an effect on all our ego's but if someone is secure in what they know or do then it really does not matter what others say. Man! I cant imagine how you guys would feel if WXZ was in front of you being honest. Ever read his book or an interview with him? Not very PC! hahaha Look up: Interview with Wang Xiang Zhai, Discussions on the Essence of Combat Science. JR


What is the platform being used to achieve the internal process?
Martial Art Platform! Mind/Body/Breathing martial art systems. JR


++We can agree to disagree, as i think- not necessarily.

There are non MA platfoms. B

Really? Here is a list of arts that contain this:

Yi Quan, Taiji, Hsing Yi, Ba Gwa, Wing Chun (yes, I can take you thru it with WC), South Mantis etc.. Wang Xiang Zhai, Sun Lu Tang, Chen Man Cheng, Lum Sang etc.. These guys were not Priests they were Sifu's! hahaha

How about White Crane's Special set? The Li Moi Jum (cotton needle)!


There is Internal with very little true Alchemy. And true esoteric alchemy is the operating system to the human organizm, and isnt necessarily attached at all to MA Platforms. B

Not all MA platforms but some! Wai/"Noi" aspects! Who have you studied True esoteric doctrine (what) with and for how long? Just curious to know as it helps me understand you platform for development/thought on this subject. For me, most Kung fu these days consider the Muscle Tendon stuff (especially in the south) the Internal but its just part of it IMO. JR

Usually only small parts are of the whole of the training and knowledge is found with in "Internal" kung Fu, wether it have or have not MA aspects.
Very few systems are like Emie, that offer a complete package , IMO. B

The closer you get to the source of these arts you find many of them contianed Wai/Noi. JR

Just an opinion!


Gotta run,

[kung fu fighter]

Hi kung fu fighter,

By chambering are you refering to the pulling back of the shoulder joint (independantly of the rest of the body) and then sinking it as you drive forward to strike.

You are right but this whole waist/shoulder “bowing” is done in a smooth manner with little posturing and the only break is between launches of each whip.(Whooping Crane especially)

Don’t really know how to explain the “bio” bit but when I was learning, my teachers keep referring to bow/arrow mechanics…

In Sidai’s case, not so much transferring whipping from waist to spine but rather lifting to the shoulder and then launching from there.

Notice how still the rest of her body looks and seemingly only her hands are moving.

What I don’t see is the “spitting and swallowing” and this I attributed to the fact that Sidai is a real high hand.

In fact she was launching and talking at the same time and still exude tremendous jing.

You got to be there to know what I mean…..

Warmest Regards.

Eric




Thanks for the straight forward response Eric!

Navin

[byond1]

Hi Brother J,


"Sometimes its even hard to hear yourself being criticized by others publically which has an effect on all our ego's but if someone is secure in what they know or do then it really does not matter what others say."


+++Its hard to speculate on why someone responds the way they do. The emotional responce is an illusion anyway, created by Ego. Everyones responce will be for differant reasons and all equaly Illusionary. LOL
Most have always missed ,what bothers me and why, as almost know one, other than members of the AWCKRI know me.

Someone, Not understanding, what i have said, but they think they have understood me , really bothers me for some reason. Someone disagreeing with me, when they understand exactly what im saying, is called Fun conversation, to me, and a chance to grow.

Someone i dont know suggesting "I dont know what im talking about" means ---nothing. Someone thats pretends to be my friend, and suggests in a public forum that i am simply collecting info on line, and im part of the problem spreading my own ideas, bothers me. Especialy when i have practised WCK activly for over half as long as i have lived.


See? Its not about truth. Its about others lies, that are bother some to me. I have no tollerance for Lies nor people who spread darkness and untruth.
Strong truth, no matter how bitter, is my friend. Im very acclamaited to it. Yun Sifu gives me tastes every now and than, i have to be carefull i dont choke.::)) As part of my spiritual training, i face many things that most wouldnt want to about myself, and human nature. But im not perfect. I still fight with my ego, and can get "Hurt" by those i let into my life, as that implies trust, that i put in them. "Tread carefully where you walk, as i lay my dreams at your feet" (paraphrased)



. Today, Unfortunately, we have to place lienage names when chatting online as it gets more specific."

+++You might miss my point. I think lineage is important. Others suggest it isnt, and only technical discussion is worthy of attention. I simply added some missuse lineage, as an ego rubber, or the opposite, dont actually bring up the truth about lineage, as the facts would tarnish their credibility.

Thats my whole point Jim. We all bring our own research, and understanding about our systems. Who has nominated anyone as ~The~ Judge and scrutinizer of others? Who has the right to call everyones ideas speculation, and than act, as if their speculations are above being called Speculations?


I think both lineage and technical data is important, as i mentioned lineage gives alot of specific information about the persons knowledge they have access to. But people miss use the names and ancestors. Or pick and chose what info they want to ~Let~ out.




"Really? Here is a list of arts that contain this":

++thats a very tiny list- proving my point. Here is alist of spiritual systems, not containing a MA platform. Gnostism, Hermetics, Chaldean Kabala, Egyption Kabala, Hebrew Kabala, Rosicrusianism, Esoteric Taoism, Esoteric Buddhism, Brahamism, Yamabushism, Druidism, Greek Kabala, Theosophy, Ect. I could go on.

This is the same conversation we had before. Im not going to repeat the same things. But sufice it to say, The "internal" kung fu that contains the spiritual system in its full form with MA platform, are almost non existant. Emie is one of the only ones.

One would only know this, though, if one had exposure to a wide range of these systems and actually practised them and or compared with practioners of other systems. As i told you, i have studied esoteric systems for longer than i have been in WCK. I was called to study, when i was 6 years old, systems other than the Catholisim that was being forced down my throat. I became a serious believer and practitioner when i was in my early teens. And have now been learning for 29 years. I also told you what systems i have directly studied and practise. The fact that i spend time learning about esoteric teachings, various languages, Music and art, obviously dont come up, as i am here to discuss WCK. And i never thought in 1 million years, it would come up in a kung fu forum!!~LOL

So as i said, very very few MA platform systems contain the whole operating system. Emie does, and only a monk or inheritor would have the complete system from Emie. Knowing the 12 jong, is only a part of the training. There are numerous levels of information, that takes a life time to learn, practise and understand. Shuegendo is fairly complete system in my understanding of it, as is the true Yamabushi system. All hybred approachs from the same time period of development , incidentlly.

The Jam jong you are refering to as noigung and Internal, is such a small part of the whole. Tendon conditioning, is only part of the whole of MA training, and not found in most Spiritual systems, other than partialy in Taoism or Buddhism. Tendon changing is a method of conditioning and training, that allows one to not use muscles to support ones actions(minimize the use of) , hence helping facilitate Chi flow. Breath, Mind, Energy, and Tendon, and Bone Alighment, are all needed. As well as things like Sung and Settling. Use of the tendons is obviously paramount to Ging, in many arts like White Crane, Bot Gwa, and WCK.

non of the ma platforms listed, no matter how close you get to the source, contain more than just part of the Physical/Energy/Mind training. All the other areas of knoweldge are completly missing. Keep learning though. And follow my suggestions i made last time, for expanding your exposure, to more well rounded complete approachs. And than decied for yourself. I respect your interest, as many are not willing to delve into the nature of being human, and how to actually use the Op system!!~

I also think your ideas on Noigung and WCK are very interesting. I wouldnt mind hearing and learning more about your approach. As i look at the Noigung of WCK being more related to the Yik Ging.

B




Navin - Read Yang Ying Mings Book. I think it would help

[kung fu fighter]

Navin - Read Yang Ying Mings Book. I think it would help

Thanks Brian,

I already got a pretty satisfactory answer from Eric ! but if you have anything to add please do.

Thank god there are people on here like Eric, otherwise the rest of us would have to go Bi si everytime we were curious about another practioner's perspective, training methods or linage etc.

Did you mean Yang Jwing Ming's book, if so which one?

[Jim Roselando]

B wrote:


See? Its not about truth. Its about others lies, that are bother some to me. I have no tollerance for Lies nor people who spread darkness and untruth.
Strong truth, no matter how bitter, is my friend. Im very acclamaited to it.

Cool. Then you will understand why anyone who holds this attitude towards the Internal practices/discussions will not be able to accept what they consider off and not state their belief. In the end we dont have to agree but as with all discussions their will be a pouint where both parties agree and disagree. JR

B:

Thats my whole point Jim. We all bring our own research, and understanding about our systems. Who has nominated anyone as ~The~ Judge and scrutinizer of others? Who has the right to call everyones ideas speculation, and than act, as if their speculations are above being called Speculations?

Who cares what one person on the internet says if you are happy? There are Millions of Kung Fu people in the world. We have here maybe a 6-8 chit chatting regularly in this topic. Does the rant of one person mean anything other than what it is? One persons rant? BFD IMO Jr

B:

I think both lineage and technical data is important, as i mentioned lineage gives alot of specific information about the persons knowledge they have access to. But people miss use the names and ancestors. Or pick and chose what info they want to ~Let~ out.

Anyone can do what they want with what they aquire in life. People share how they want and how they feel it will "benefit" the general reader. JR

B:

++thats a very tiny list- proving my point.

You asked for a list of Kung Fu arts that cultivate the Noi and I gave you a list proving that its normal. You never asked for a Spiritual tradition list. Thats just rambling when a quesiton has been answered.

B:

Here is alist of spiritual systems, not containing a MA platform. Gnostism, Hermetics, Chaldean Kabala, Egyption Kabala, Hebrew Kabala, Rosicrusianism, Esoteric Taoism, Esoteric Buddhism, Brahamism, Yamabushism, Druidism, Greek Kabala, Theosophy, Ect. I could go on.

You can get this list from any good Masonic book. I can send you to the places/Sifu's in the Kung Fu system list I provided that will teach you the stuff I am talking about.

Where are the schools and teachers of the list you provided producing todays alchemists? Example: In the US there are only a handful of Gnostic Churches. Are they really teaching Alchemy? Yi Chuan, Jook Lum and many other Kung Fu systems have a proven track record of this stuff proving my point. ;)

B:

One would only know this, though, if one had exposure to a wide range of these systems and actually practised them and or compared with practioners of other systems. As i told you, i have studied esoteric systems for longer than i have been in WCK.

I'm not as lucky as you. I have I have not studied this stuff much but researched it a bit. Found many parallels and would love to learn more. Can you tell me who or where I can go to learn more? No need to list them all but a few would be cool. How about Hermetics or Druid practices?

B:

I was called to study, when i was 6 years old, systems other than the Catholisim that was being forced down my throat. I became a serious believer and practitioner when i was in my early teens. And have now been learning for 29 years. I also told you what systems i have directly studied and practise. The fact that i spend time learning about esoteric teachings, various languages, Music and art, obviously dont come up, as i am here to discuss WCK. And i never thought in 1 million years, it would come up in a kung fu forum!!~LOL

There are only so many things you can do with the human body. Maybe you get a better idea as to why there guys are called:

Warriors Of Stillness :)

B:

The Jam jong you are refering to as noigung and Internal, is such a small part of the whole. Tendon conditioning, is only part of the whole of MA training, and not found in most Spiritual systems, other than partialy in Taoism or Buddhism. Tendon changing is a method of conditioning and training, that allows one to not use muscles to support ones actions(minimize the use of) , hence helping facilitate Chi flow. Breath, Mind, Energy, and Tendon, and Bone Alighment, are all needed. As well as things like Sung and Settling. Use of the tendons is obviously paramount to Ging, in many arts like White Crane, Bot Gwa, and WCK.

Your jumping all over the place! hahaha Interesting POV

B:

non of the ma platforms listed, no matter how close you get to the source, contain more than just part of the Physical/Energy/Mind training. All the other areas of knoweldge are completly missing.

And you wonder why the word Speculation comes up from time to time.

B:

Keep learning though. And follow my suggestions i made last time, for expanding your exposure, to more well rounded complete approachs. And than decied for yourself. I respect your interest, as many are not willing to delve into the nature of being human, and how to actually use the Op system!!~

ROFLOL :confused:

I also think your ideas on Noigung and WCK are very interesting. I wouldnt mind hearing and learning more about your approach. As i look at the Noigung of WCK being more related to the Yik Ging.

Your train YKS system.

Grandmaster Yuen Kay-San’s early written notes is: “Sum Jing Hei Cheung Lao - quiet the heart and conserve the Chi/Breath.”

Everyone knows about the Wai aspects of tendon/sinew/etc training. Your better off trying to crack this Kuit Code.


Back to lurk mode!

Peace,

[TenTigers]

hate to break up the continuity of your arguments here, but, could you explain the meaning and usage of the term,"Rou"? What is its equivilent in Cantonese?

[CFT]

hate to break up the continuity of your arguments here, but, could you explain the meaning and usage of the term,"Rou"? What is its equivalent in Cantonese?Just to quickly chime in ... in Cantonese we say "yau" (sounds like "oil"). In English there might be different meanings ... soft, fluid, etc. The opposite of "gong".

[Jim Roselando]

TT,


If memory serves me correct its Yau (subtle/soft).


:)

[canglong]

orignally posted by Jim Roselando
I'm saying the two arts share a common root hence why they associate. And you wonder why I avoid you.Jim,
You either don't understand what you wrote or you don't understand what you wrote.
orignally posted by Jim Roselando
Seems like many others also find a common root in the Fukien White Crane.So you think Southern arts might actually exhibit similar characteristics. Once again this is exactly why the details matter.
orignally posted by Jim Roselando
A system with 350 years of written record/effect on many many arts.
So you are suggesting compared to Shaolin Fukien is relatively new.
orignally posted by Jim Roselando
As usual. No technical discussion. Do you even read the title of the threads or do you just highjack them indescriminatly. If you want to continue with my family discussion on our Kuen Jong Dip Gwat Gung you are more than welcome to come and join us.
http://hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1196&perpage=15&pagenumber=26

http://hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2159

[TenTigers]

yeah, kinda figured that. Which is why I was confused when it was thrown in there with other Cantonese terminology. That always makes me wonder....:rolleyes:

[mantis108]

Thank you for participating in an orderly discussion and I believe there are indeed a lot of information shared.

Unlike Jim and Hendrik, I don't believe in doctrine in martial arts and particularly in Kung Fu. This is IMHO the reason that Jim and Hendrik believe that yours truely know little of or have virtually no experience with the so-called "internal arts-alchemy". By underminding my pro pragmatism position and my democratic choice of not framing Kung Fu practice into doctrinated creeds, they believe they can sell their brand of "realism" which in reality is for the dominion of a few elitists controlled arts. Check the list that they gave and you will see that all those examples given have tightly controlled information flow. They posit that unless a martial art has some kind of meditation practice which as they see as "stillness" and some kind of Rou (subtle, soft, fluid, felixible, etc) which is examplified by some slowly performed forms (ie Taijiquan, Bagua, Xingyi, etc), it is in their view or rather "judgement" that it's not Kung Fu. They go so far as giving example of "needle in the cotton" which is an advanced form in Tibetan White Crane not Fujian White Crane. We can see how confused and opportunistic their arguement has been. By means of abusive use of scientific methodology and researches, which as I have pointed out to be no more than consumerism, they believe they managed to stack the cards into their favor. Couple this by throwing out big words such as nihilism and eternalism (is there such a philosophical term?), they believe a nominalistic tactic would give them an edge and stifle reasoning and democracy examination of their narrow perspective of the real constitution of Kung Fu, which is far from their ideologically inauguration of the so-call internal Kung Fu (by means of brain wave machine testing) that they opportunistically switch back and forth with alchemy.

I have asked them to provide data on test subjects and control groups that exhibit the internal martial arts process (by means of their machine testing) before, during and after a bout with real resistive pressure. All I have met with is more rhetoric Koan, and accusations that I have no idea about their "state" or their attainment. The more authouritive figures in the past and the more martial gospel in the form of manuscripts that they pour out, the more we have to wonder if within this fog of rhetorics there is truth yet to be revealed. We can all hide behind those and conveniently avoid sparring which is the most important attribute building exercise of any functional martial arts.

You want my example of stillness and "Rou" in a confrontatin which can simply translate into courage, confidence and relaxed countenance? Let's look at this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4MJanRISu8&eurl=

I hate to break the "news"-cliche to you the Ju is Ju Jitsu is the same meaning of "ROU" in Kung Fu. It's definitely not some old guy doing slow mo' in the park and you call it Rou.

If Taijiquan or whatever got to the point that it can't be funtional in a real confrontion (I know you are going to argue that the clip is staged) such as in the clip, it's not Kung Fu in my book whether the Taijiquan guy past the brain wave machine test or not. If the guy before he was choke out knew enough to use some centerline (elbow in) defense, he might not have been chocked out so quickly. The brain wave "state" means nothing when you are choked out like the guy and had to be carried out by others. The understanding of the use of elbow in the centerline might have been the saving grace of the day and more useful instead of grasping the theoretical debate about potential "internal injury" that it might have caused for Wing Chuner. What's that adage? It's better to walk away by two than be carried out by six(?).

What Jim and Hendrik is advocating is courting with disaster in the name of pseudo -science, misguided traditions and organized despair. It has nothing to do with either self-perfection nor self preservation. For real self-prefection and self-preservation both can be attained simultaneously by "higher conciousness through harder contact" and many traditional Kung Fu have been do that already IMHO.

Finally, I speak (or rather type in this case) with passion about what I believe doesn't mean that I don't respect others nor am I frustrated about other's believe. I honestly do not care one away or the other if people listen or not. It's a free world. Just don't regret one day that you've not realized you've been blindfolded by the "light" in front of you. You never know by the time you realized that; it might be light's out for you.

Sincerely,

Mantis108

[Jim Roselando]

Tony,


Do you even read the title of the threads or do you just highjack them indescriminatly. If you want to continue with my family discussion on our Kuen Jong Dip Gwat Gung you are more than welcome to come and join us.
http://hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1196&perpage=15&pagenumber =26

http://hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2159


In case your curious. I never read anything other than what was posted on your seminar flyer respond list sent in on the WC portion of the KFO board a long time ago. The one that the people attended responces were posted. The info. was discussed with me from a close friend who attended the seminar back then. I thought it would be interesting to get you to chat about it (technically) as we were already talking about Dip Gwat. This was an easy example for discussion on the difference in process/cultivation IMO. It happened to be around the same time you chimed in so I thought why not ask since you were here! See how little things without background can be thought of as High-Jacking rather than timing! :cool:

BTW: I dont surf HFY board. :eek: Two web sites is more than enough.

[Eric Ling]

Sorry folks,

Got absolutely no clue about what you guys are talking about .... so I shall not be posting here.....:D

Robert my friend, maybe you want to change the thread title to :-

"Myth about mythologies of internal/external components interaction of intellectual elemental Kung Fu from a historical to contemporary perspective" errrh , preferably with my name excluded.:p

Warmest Regards.

Eric

[mantis108]

My sincere apologies that your good name got dragged into this debate. Collateral damage of this sort was never my intention. Anyway thank you for participating. As for changing the name of the thread, I think only the mod have that ability. If you and others prefer this thread to be deleted, I will do so as requested. I will leave this couple of days and will delete it after the weakend by the lastest. Take care, my friend.

Warmest regards

Robert

[Eric Ling]

Robert,

No no no, not suggesting killing the thread…

Just letting you know that I would not be playing here.

Keep it going ….. Giving my English a very good workout….

Understand that you started with good “yi” and then the “chi” & “shen” got all mangled up giving shape to funny “Xing”.

But as long as the “xin” is in the right place, the rest of the body parts got to catch up, that’s all.

Warmest Regards.

Eric :) :) :)

[mantis108]

Understood, my friend. :)

Here's some thoughts in Chinese for you and those who are interested. The discussion subject is about the Luohan Xinggong Duanda's 18 Luohan Gong (first road). The remarks in quotes are from another poster on a mainland Kung Fu forum. The reply is mine:

第一路 仙人拱手 一回

[生克治化]以呼吸定息﹑用偪(服)氣全神﹑ 是虛心實腹﹑養氣血生津。實腹﹑一使
丹田氣滿。虛心﹑鼻孔提氣存于心。聽其自然﹑行功積力﹑氣粗則力壯。

[生克治化] =>[水火轉輪] =>[土中生金]


有關「偪」這個字的解釋

1.侵迫。同「逼」。左傳．僖公五年：「桓莊之族何罪，而以為戮，不唯偪乎？」孟子．滕文公上：「草木暢茂 ，禽獸繁殖；五穀不登，禽獸偪人。」

2.即行縢。包裹在足脛上，使跳騰輕便。俗稱為「綁腿」。詩經．小雅．采菽「赤芾在股，邪幅在下」句下毛亨 ．傳　：「幅，偪也，所以自偪束也。」鄭玄．箋：「邪幅，如今行縢也，偪束其脛，自足至膝，故曰在下。」禮 記．內則：「偪屨著綦。」

3.屈服。通「伏」。三國志．卷三十五．蜀書．諸葛亮傳：『又荊州之民附操者，偪兵勢耳，非心服也 。」

「偪氣」是逼氣還是服氣（若是服氣就要寫做「伏氣」）？
我個人認為逼氣比較正確。
因為所謂的「定息」應該解作「停息」，
定息若解作穩定呼吸意義不大，平常人就在穩定呼吸何必特別寫。
先呼出內氣，然後吸滿，之後停息，此時要用神也就是意念，讓氣腹實而心虛。
配合仙人拱手的動作能讓胸腔擴大，肺葉完全舒張,有利於有氧呼吸。

肺部平時不是完全張開的，肺葉的尖端有所為的「死空間」，
氣功體式有助死空間充氣，進行氧氣與二氧化碳的交換。

多寶塔兄高見。

愚意以為自“以呼吸定息”至“氣粗則力壯” 共五十字應大衍之數﹐ 齊魯文化之
徵。

[生克治化]﹕破題以陰陽消長﹐五行生克﹐五氣治化。

以呼吸定息﹕這句開宗明義是以一呼一吸為一息(一度)。息字解為十二月辟卦陰消
陽息之道﹐是內練一口氣的根本理論﹐在這裡是立言之本。

用偪(服)氣全神﹕偪﹐疑為服字的別借字。如道家煉丹的服氣則較為貼切上文下理。
服氣全神即煉氣化神之意。偪字則較近螳螂練三回九轉時束腰排氣之意。

是虛心實腹﹕明顯是道家語。

養氣血生津﹕道家煉丹七返九還﹐金津玉液煉丹緊要。

實腹﹑一使丹田氣滿。虛心﹑鼻孔提氣存于心﹕此二句對上面虛心實腹作詮解。

聽其自然﹑行功積力﹕行功積力對應羅漢行功短打之行功有三乘﹐拳功相附相成。

氣粗則力壯﹕ 氣與力合﹐氣粗自然力壯。


官兄之見解深入，
與官兄討論「服氣」一詞，如何是「服氣」？

道教丹術最早是從服藥健身開始，
玉皇心印經中說上藥三品歸成精氣神，相信是後來的演化。
服藥改成服氣，其中的「服」應該是指「吞服」，
引氣下十二重樓？如何引？
這「服」字我認為是個關鍵。
十二重樓一般通說是指氣管，
氣管通氣如何要引？說不通！
「服」通過的是食道，
在停息的狀態下吞嚥引津液下食道，會帶動氣下行，這個氣不是空氣。

不知道官兄所理解的服氣是如何呢？


此勢提到「行功積力，氣粗則力壯」，
所以做此勢氣力會增長，這也是相對應的驗證，
如果沒有氣力增長，或者氣力增長效果不顯著應該都是練錯了。

多寶塔兄客氣﹑客氣。


官兄之見解深入，
與官兄討論「服氣」一詞，如何是「服氣」？

道教丹術最早是從服藥健身開始，

丹道的確是始于方士主將服藥保健(主要是散或丸劑)即所謂外丹﹐靈感可能來至煉
朱砂(礦砂散狀)而成汞(水銀)珠狀但不能成丸﹐即所謂不能圓滿通融之意。煉丹火
過猛﹐汞會化為水銀氣﹐此時對人而言毒性最烈所以不能用。其實方士服藥會使人
產生亢奮(即西方所謂HIGH)﹐以古人的知識這是相當“神奇”﹐現代人則明白這是
百害而無一利。可是煉外丹的過程和念理卻又引發宋代內丹(如全真派)的形成。由
于宋代心學﹑理學的抬頭和象數的學術復興加上融匯佛法禪定﹐內丹之流以前人煉
外丹的經驗來個格物致知﹐物格而後知至﹐而成丹道。煉外丹的基本目的是延年益
壽使達官貴人可永享榮華富貴﹐但長久經驗知道以人相長生是妄想﹐萬事萬物都依
生滅定律﹐所以內丹之士轉以天命之謂性為長且久的立論跟據﹐以精﹑氣﹑神為藥
來治貪﹑嗔﹑痴三毒。性﹑元神﹑金丹其實都是指同一個東西。


玉皇心印經中說上藥三品歸成精氣神，相信是後來的演化。
服藥改成服氣，其中的「服」應該是指「吞服」，

同意。不錯﹐愚意「服」確是指「吞服」


引氣下十二重樓？如何引？
這「服」字我認為是個關鍵。
十二重樓一般通說是指氣管，
氣管通氣如何要引？說不通！
「服」通過的是食道，
在停息的狀態下吞嚥引津液下食道，會帶動氣下行，這個氣不是空氣。

不知道官兄所理解的服氣是如何呢？

後天之氣即所謂呼吸口鼻之氣是為氣息﹐先天之氣即奇經八脈及十二正經(八剛十二
柔)陽氣陰血運行之道謂之身息。一般人無論氣息身息都是不斷的運行而他們都不能
意職到氣息身息﹐息息相關的道理。津液的出現就是奇經八脈及十二正經﹐奇正
相生的表現。煉丹者以津液中的精氣經嚥道和合自喉道(十二重樓﹐膽經主之)中的
後天之氣以意送至胃中納入足明陽胃經﹐然後經井池雙穴再納入督﹑任脈復至丹田。
這過程是必要順天而行(逆人道﹐左旋)﹐所謂順人道則生男育女﹐逆人道則成仙作
佛。平常人呼吸紊亂﹐內息逆天而行﹐所以醉生而夢死。修道者繩之以規矩而了然
生死﹐所謂定息即此意﹐當中亦有停息一節(即四季土王用事或冬藏)。


此勢提到「行功積力，氣粗則力壯」，
所以做此勢氣力會增長，這也是相對應的驗證，
如果沒有氣力增長，或者氣力增長效果不顯著應該都是練錯了。

多寶塔兄所言甚是。

此勢以後天先理脾胃﹐脾動力氣大﹐胃足中氣壯﹐ 同時兼顧以心﹑意﹑氣﹑力所形
成的內三合鏈(心與意合﹐意與氣合﹐氣與力合)﹐所以行功積力非此奈何﹖

未知多寶塔兄以為如何﹖

to be continued...

[mantis108]

Continued ...


一般人胸腔的形狀都有點凹陷，
古人所謂肺如華蓋，胸腔應該要能如華蓋圓滿撐張才好。
此勢肘後引顯然是開闊胸腔，但是要切記不可挺胸以致後背凹陷，後背也要圓撐為佳。
官兄說此勢引後天理脾胃所見是深刻的。
古人所謂氣入丹田，其實空氣一直都在肺臟，不會到丹田，
丹田之所以鼓脹是因為橫隔膜下壓胃腸等內臟的關係，
我個人理解這樣的擠壓有助於脾胃大小腸的按摩，
脾主運化，這樣的呼吸按摩內臟有助於氣血津液的運化，應該是無疑的，
與脾的功能相同。
肘後引以閩南語說是開上八卦，口訣中說「氣滿應心」，
也就是鳩尾壇中會鼓起（中焦氣滿），
這也可以與官兄李脾胃之說相呼應。

與官兄討論一下「心意」，
心與意其實能分辨的人不多，但是也不是很難分辨。
以心意為宗的心意六合把、形意拳都是在此下功夫的，
但是心意不一定是「合」的，意與氣合也不是理所當然，
事實上也有「意到氣到，氣到力到」，意氣力三者分至的理論，
不一定要「合」。
何者為心？何者為意？
以我的理解，心是思慮想像，意則是離思慮想像的意念，
操作上意是最重要，王薌齋大師將形意拳結合鶴拳新創的拳種叫「意拳」，
去掉「形」這個字，我認為其實含有深意。

多寶塔兄


一般人胸腔的形狀都有點凹陷，
古人所謂肺如華蓋，胸腔應該要能如華蓋圓滿撐張才好。
此勢肘後引顯然是開闊胸腔，但是要切記不可挺胸以致後背凹陷，後背也要圓撐為
佳。
官兄說此勢引後天理脾胃所見是深刻的。
古人所謂氣入丹田，其實空氣一直都在肺臟，不會到丹田，
丹田之所以鼓脹是因為橫隔膜下壓胃腸等內臟的關係，
我個人理解這樣的擠壓有助於脾胃大小腸的按摩，
脾主運化，這樣的呼吸按摩內臟有助於氣血津液的運化，應該是無疑的，
與脾的功能相同。
肘後引以閩南語說是開上八卦，口訣中說「氣滿應心」，
也就是鳩尾壇中會鼓起（中焦氣滿），
這也可以與官兄李脾胃之說相呼應。

多寶塔兄果然高妙﹗有了「氣滿應心」之體驗則可談納卦﹐胸(連背)為兼山艮﹐胸
欲起而心欲止﹐兼山艮以治心胸其妙無窮。再者艮卦乃“連山易”之首﹐“連山易”
者愚意以為炎帝(神穠氏)的承傳(蚩尤為之末)乃南方稻米文化﹐夏人因之﹐山水泥
土以至飲男女﹐脾土不能不理﹐南醫多以調理脾胃為先怕者與“連山易”的承傳
不無關系﹐華夏道統尤未失也。


與官兄討論一下「心意」，
心與意其實能分辨的人不多，但是也不是很難分辨。
以心意為宗的心意六合把、形意拳都是在此下功夫的，
但是心意不一定是「合」的，意與氣合也不是理所當然，
事實上也有「意到氣到，氣到力到」，意氣力三者分至的理論，
不一定要「合」。
何者為心？何者為意？
以我的理解，心是思慮想像，意則是離思慮想像的意念，
操作上意是最重要，王薌齋大師將形意拳結合鶴拳新創的拳種叫「意拳」，
去掉「形」這個字，我認為其實含有深意。

愚意以為心﹑意﹑氣﹑力即列子所謂太易(未見氣)﹑太初(氣之始)﹑太始(形之始)﹑
太素(質之始)﹐ 亦如老子所謂道生一﹐一生二﹐二生三﹐三生萬物。心乃太易﹑意
乃太初﹐太易﹑太初未見與見之別。心如昭日﹐意如皓月﹐月必以日光始生華而所
以有陰晴圓缺﹐意亦如是。心意無合如月之無華﹐失之于陰陽﹐無以為道﹐不可不
察。古人以意字通志字﹐意者立言之于心上﹐ 志者士之心﹐所同者有心之所為教也﹐
心處下尤一點靈光之于暗極之處﹐千百裡外都能見。心既是光源並不能自視﹐必有
意然後能見﹐所以意誠則心正之表﹐正心乃誠意之本﹐吾人功夫之所在。頭﹑手﹑
足三正即誠其意而正其心之法。形與意一大恆(太極)也﹐愚意以為不可厚此而薄彼。

請兄參詳。

This is somewhat related to the debate in this thread. I hope this would show that I am not copy and paste from a $1.25 book and call it the greatest discovery of all time. ;)

Warmest regards

Robert

PS: 清未阮元重刊的《宋本礼记疏本》:

大学之道，在明明德，在亲民，在止於至善。知止而後有定，定而後能静，静而後能安，安而後能虑，虑而後能得 。物有本末，事有终始，知所先後，则近道矣。

　　古之欲明明德於天下者，先治其国；欲治其国者，先齐其家；欲齐其家者，先修其身；欲修其身者，先正其心 ；欲正其心者，先诚其意；欲诚其意者，先致其知；致知在格物。

　　物格而後知至，知至而後意诚，意诚而後心正，心正而後身修，身修而後家齐，家齐而後国治，国治而後天下 平。

　　自天子以至於庶人。壹是皆以修身为本。其本乱，而末治者否矣。其所厚者薄，而其所薄者厚，未之有也。此 谓知本，此谓知之至也。

　　所谓诚其意者，毋自欺也。如恶恶臭，如好好色。此之谓自谦。故君子必慎其独也。小人闲居为不善，无所不 至。见君子而後厌然，掩其不善，而著其善。人之 视己，如见其肺肝然，则何益矣？此谓诚於中，形於外。故君子必慎其独也。曾子曰：“十目所视，十手所指，其 严乎！”富润屋，德润身，心广体胖，故君子必诚 其意。

Enjoy.

[Jim Roselando]

Eric/Robert et al,


Eric,


Much thanks for sharing all your research. Its real nice to see the chinese martial art community being more open. Its also great to see the long term Wall between the White Crane & Wing Chun family breaking down.


Robert,

I hope this would show that I am not copy and paste from a $1.25 book and call it the greatest discovery of all time.

Pretty Internet Files or $1.25 Book or Free Book doesn't matter if you dont understand what your reading. Find someone to help you go thru the qi process. Sometimes its almost better off not knowing as your bubble doesn't get shattered. Atleast thats how I felt! Been there for sure! I feel for you! :)


Thanks all for the great debate and info..

Gotta run!

[Hendrik]

http://www.lannyland.com/wanderer/chap13.htm

http://www.lannyland.com/wanderer/music/xiaoao.htm


I love Xiao Ao Jiang Hu.

Enjoy.

[canglong]

originally posted by Jim Roselando
Pretty Internet Files or $1.25 Book or Free Book doesn't matter if you dont understand what your reading. Find someone to help you go thru the qi process. Sometimes its almost better off not knowing as your bubble doesn't get shattered. Atleast thats how I felt! Been there for sure! I feel for you!Jim,
There is obviously no end to the limit of your unfounded insults. When you find someone to help you go through the qi process you just mind find it to be a little different than that stuff hendrik is peddling as a qi process. But if you feel better off not knowing then you must be in seventh heaven right now!

[Hendrik]

Unlike Jim and Hendrik, I don't believe in doctrine in martial arts and particularly in Kung Fu. This is IMHO the reason that Jim and Hendrik believe that yours truely know little of or have virtually no experience with the so-called "internal arts-alchemy". .....

Sincerely,

Mantis108



I am a kyokushin, is Kyokushin philosophy believe in doctrine?


As for internal art, I dont believe in any bias, simple,

if one could describe the experience of how and what it is internal art, in their own words instead of book reading knowledge or all book reading theory. or THINING they know via reading BOOKs.

Then, the person justified him/herself.

It is not my believe but it is what the person presented. I dont judge but describe what is shown infront of my eyes.


If you dis-agree with me, then describe to us here on : what is your experience when you train and activate your Ren and Du? That simple. if you could, then you have it. if you cant then you dont have it. Disregard of if you read all the chinese classical and be able to debate the book knowledge as you like it.


See, the trouble we often see's other as dogmatism without seing ourself is using our Dogma to judge others and missing the point of Does one capable of "seeing"/experiencing the Nature and then describe the Nature, however, shallow or Deep, that is a very distingtive things compare with book reading understanding and calling others dogmatism.





One very practical example on using the HRV machine is that:

Eric has mentions Sidai could speaking and issue power at ease. That IMHO if Sidai let us monitor her HRV, I would guarentee she has very good handling habit on here HRV via her cultivation of Kung Fu.

Thus, with this above, we have a quantitative way of monitoring and direction on what is a good Kung Fu cultivation is like as a reference.


So, those think they could learn a few terms in the web and KNOW it all, without really go Bai Si and respect the teacher such as Sidai and learning . they are day dreaming, Dont believe me? Hook themself up to the HRV and see if they can even handle it ?

People these days just read some terms and collect what others said and start to be come a Pioneer of Kung Fu. What pioneer is that? Collector Pioneer is certain because they did spend thier effort to collect lots of good things, but not the Pioneer of the subject in Chinese Kung Fu for that needs proper transmission. IMHO


Best Regards
Hendrik

[byond1]

Hi Jim


"Cool. Then you will understand why anyone who holds this attitude towards the Internal practices/discussions will not be able to accept what they consider off and not state their belief. In the end we dont have to agree but as with all discussions their will be a pouint where both parties agree and disagree. JR "


+++Yes i understand. As someone who has spent 29 years believing in and practising the Esoteric Science in one form or another, i dont accept many false statements i hear, hence i have posted. Many make statments with 1 or 2 years of study, and because of ego, think they understand "Everything". This is one of the biggest traps, and its at this time, the diamond sutra must be cast into the fire, and progres needs to be from experiance and training correcty.



"Who cares what one person on the internet says if you are happy? There are Millions of Kung Fu people in the world. We have here maybe a 6-8 chit chatting regularly in this topic. Does the rant of one person mean anything other than what it is? One persons rant? BFD IMO Jr"

+++In general i dont. But slander is a nasty beast, that can destroy, years of work developing friendships, in the research sence. I dont have to sit back and accept someones slander. And most need to learn the lesson, if your shift is filthy, dont bother looking at the a fleck of dirt on mine.






Anyone can do what they want with what they aquire in life. People share how they want and how they feel it will "benefit" the general reader. JR

+++Yes, and of cource convenietly they leave out ~MOst~ of the truth, and only focus on the parts that make them look good. And IMO, it rarly benefits anyone but their ego and self supporting their illusions.







You asked for a list of Kung Fu arts that cultivate the Noi and I gave you a list proving that its normal. You never asked for a Spiritual tradition list. Thats just rambling when a quesiton has been answered.

+++No, i didnt ask for ANY list. You are calling Noi gung the true alchemy system, from what i am understanding of your posts. I am saying its not, and only the spiritual traditions contain the true Alchemy/resurection system.
My statement was clear. Almost no true/complete system of alchemy/resurection is found within any MA. There are a few systems of alchemy that contain the entire system and a MA platform, and they are really really rare, and i already mentioned 3 of them.
So my statement was simply expressing this, and you seem to doubt what im saying, and gave me a tiny list of MA systems that supposedly have the true esoteric docrine/resurection/alchemy method, which, according to almost every ancient world tradition, isnt a correct speculation. But you are allowed your POV and Opinion, and i would never think to tell you otherwise






You can get this list from any good Masonic book. I can send you to the places/Sifu's in the Kung Fu system list I provided that will teach you the stuff I am talking about.


+++I warned you about using masonic literature, as it is degraded information. And only has a small fragment of the symbolism interpretation system. The core teachings are lost.

But would you send someone you dont know, to a teacher to learn anything? Teachers (of esoteric and internal studies) are for those who want to complete serious study. Would you send window shoppers to a teacher and waste everyones time? When the window shopper can learn from books, deciede what direction they want to go, and than search out a teacher to help them walk the path.





Where are the schools and teachers of the list you provided producing todays alchemists? Example: In the US there are only a handful of Gnostic Churches. Are they really teaching Alchemy? Yi Chuan, Jook Lum and many other Kung Fu systems have a proven track record of this stuff proving my point.

+++Yi chuan and othe Kung fu systems do not have any track record of preserving the true Alchemy/resurection/esoteric docrine, plain and simple, proving my point, and that point is - Internal Kung Fu has a fragment of the whole of the system. And their is no mumbo jumo, or mysticism involved with what i am talking about. Its a science. Using the internet or phonebook, imo , wont lead you to the inner teachings anymore than it would lead you to inner door WCK.

Where are the school and teachers? Not in the public eye or in the eye of the profane. They are not their for "Window shoppers" or knowledge gatherers. But with your few years of training im sure you are aware of that.






I'm not as lucky as you. I have I have not studied this stuff much but researched it a bit. Found many parallels and would love to learn more. Can you tell me who or where I can go to learn more? No need to list them all but a few would be cool. How about Hermetics or Druid practices?


+++Karma brings those what one deserves. I have always searcher for the truth. Again, im sure you understand, more than anyone, no one is just going to let someone drill them for questions, or entertain casual seekers. We are not talking about public available teachings. If you are simply looking to learn more, buy a book. Thats the only way, as no initiate will teach a non initiate anything but basic basic things.
If your willing to commit yourself into practise, serious practise and study, and you are at the point where you are willing to be "Screened" for moral fiber and Intent, we can meet, and i will direct you to someone in Ohio, for Druidism. You would have to commit to being an initiate though and its not something done lightly.

Hermetics is a very very hard system to find in its pure form, more so than most. Most groups that purport to be "Hermetics" have degraded the system, with mystisim, and turned it into a Mystical Lodge of sorts. You wont find, to my knowledge many legitamate hermetic systems in the USA. You will find individuals, who have pieced it together, as some try to do with Emie, from the ancient writtings, and practise on their own. or learn systems that are more complete and than use that to help open up the Hermetic system for themselves, as others use Tai Chi to open up internal methods in WCK, for example.
Same for Pythagorian method. Great system. But almost extinct. Most of the systems are not 100% complete, for example Judaic Kabala is a very full system, yet it lacks the grounding, rooting, and settleing methods on the physical plane, that say Taoism has. But Taoism is lacking parts of the Alpha numeric coding system. See? Its not easy study.




There are only so many things you can do with the human body. Maybe you get a better idea as to why there guys are called:

Warriors Of Stillness


+++:confused: i thought they were lazy~! :) "I watch him hoping and jumping around like a tiger, while i am calm and entertained"








Your jumping all over the place! hahaha Interesting POV

+++Right, i had to address several things. and to save bandwidth stuck it all together. But everything is extremly clear in what i wrote, and why the info is linked together. Its not just my POV, its the POV of many many initiats, from many differant systems, from many differant cultures, who share the exact same system, that has been passed down since pre flood. Its the Op system of the Human organizm. Simply playing with Noi Gung isnt going to achieve learning, activating and delveloping resurection nor the entire system that supports it, and also contains and tranmits the entire history of the human organizm.
Keep learning though, and good luck in your journey.





And you wonder why the word Speculation comes up from time to time.

+++Yep, thats why i posted. Alot of speculation going on. And we are protective ,over the things, we love and spend 20-30 years i-n study and practise of.





ROFLOL

+++??Whats funny?







Your train YKS system.
Grandmaster Yuen Kay-San’s early written notes is: “Sum Jing Hei Cheung Lao - quiet the heart and conserve the Chi/Breath.”
Everyone knows about the Wai aspects of tendon/sinew/etc training. Your better off trying to crack this Kuit Code.

+++Actually i have found, MOSt dont know about the Yik Gang training, as its lost to many branchs of WCK, and many who study branchs, that have Yik gang, are not even taught it.

But thanks for sharing the YKS info!! I appreicate it. And will seriously consider that Kuit. But does it have the character for "Chi" or "Hei" ? My understanding is Breath work isnt part of Kulo/YKS Noi Gung, or am i mistaken?

And if you are ever interested in meeting and you are ready to commit to a serious study of Resurection Skill/Alchemy, i would be more than happy to facilitate you meeting someone localy. I might have trouble finding you someone in Boston though. But if you are willing to travel to Michigan, Ohio, or perhaps NYC, i can help.

Im short on time, due to project demands, so i will be gone for a bit. Any more info on Noi gung and WCK will be enjoyed. Good luck Jim!!

Sincerly

Brian