Wing chun at its best.......

[Amber]

What happened here......?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH13kYFzfFk
Make Y:eek: our mind up guys......

That was ****e...

regards Amber.

[t_niehoff]

What happened here......?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH13kYFzfFk
Make Y:eek: our mind up guys......

That was ****e...

regards Amber.

What happened? Theoretical nonfighter meeting reality.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Who cares about theoretical non-fighters?

There are also theoretical know-it-alls who don't know pretty much anything about wing chun - but they pontificate all day long as if they do.

[AndrewS]

These guys are so bad I could tell they were going to be an embarrasment the first time I saw this clip just by watching their roadwork. Just watching them jog, you realize they're clowns.

Andrew

[t_niehoff]

Who cares about theoretical non-fighters?

There are also theoretical know-it-alls who don't know pretty much anything about wing chun - but they pontificate all day long as if they do.

Funny coming from someone with twice as many posts as me. ;)

[ammocase]

K i wrote a big mess but this amazing site deleted when it told me to log in again an i clicked back an it erased it all...

Dont talk crap about wing chun if the guy is fighting under his oponents rules, no punches to the face??? Have you seen WC stylist in their excersises, their strikes usually go to the face.. High kicking allowed only to the head, wing chun doesnt kick pass the stomach, some schools dont kick high pass the knee... so the WC stylist had to restort to punching in the midsection.. comepletely out of his element, years of training had to be thrown out the window to compete under kyokushinkai rules... let me stress... rules that these karatekas train under an strategise under. So basically in one sentance... he couldnt use in wing chun in the match. Yet the karateka is perfectly under his elemant with training specifically for this kind of fights, he had all his weapons allowed.

An in a fight with no rules, its no question the WC stylist landed more punches... weak punches cause id give it to the kyokushinkai fighter.. he was better conditioned cause he does fight in matches like this regularly, if all them barrages of punches were aimed at the head an done in true wing chun fashion using spearhands an knife hand thrusts to the head an neck, the karateka would have been disabled.

Dont google wing chun in ring fights, its not a sport it doesnt train under rules, the style is always going to be limited. Its a form of self defense.. heres an example of a wc fight with the wc fighter winning


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ3-Hi-kMNo

it doesnt look flashy... but he won... yeah this is a really bad example... but even tho he won he was still greatly limited.. he has to wear cushioned gloves.. wc does have serious bone conditioning excersises that is eliminated with gloves... an we spend years building up sensativiety in our arms with excersises such as sticky hands.. strap gloves on us an we lose some of the touch basically throwing away years of training.

Bascially... wing chun isnt punching someone in the stomach or strapping gloves... you limit wing chun an take away their strategy by doing so... then you say WC is weak???? You will never see WC under rules... what you see was a WC stylist punching in the stomach cause thats all hes allowed to do an another WC guy going crazy on the offense cause years of senstaivity training is out the window cause of them gloves. So none of this is WC.

[Kung Pao]

In other words, Wing Chun can't compete with MMA or any organized tournament.

That's BS. I've seen WC fighters with gloves on use other things they've learned and completely annihilate other MA's. Chi Sau teaches you sensitivity, but only if you're not interested in fighting. What it teaches you is how to hold your centerline and trap hands quickly in close quarters. Sticky hands don't do **** in a real fight, unless you're fighting Wing Chun, but what's the odds of that. Not unless it's Jean Claude kickboxer sticky hands with rope gloves and glass shards, lol.

You can box with Wing Chun, just like you can box with Northern Mantis. The question is, are you willing to learn it realistically.

[Liddel]

wing chun doesnt kick pass the stomach, some schools dont kick high pass the knee... so the WC stylist had to restort to punching in the midsection.

With all due respect -
Rules had Sweet Fk all to do with that guy loosing.

And if you look at the kicks his opponent gives, youll realise saying WC doesnt kick high is irrelevant.

That guy was just inexperienced...end of

[ammocase]

MMA an organised tournaments??? Are you serious... who cares about "organised" tourneys? These dont measure self defense in the streets.

An i seen WC eat people with finger jabs an traps an takedowns in real street encounters, whats your point? An Chi sao is a excersise, an WC has muscle memory, one touch that touches their forearms an its second nature an pure reflex, an this is built thru excersise like chi sao. Take off the gloves off a WC guy an see.

An when i said about high kicking, the kyokushinkais training was suited for this kind of match, cause .. guess what? Its hosted by kykokushinkai an made by them, yeah the WC guy sucked bad, but his training an strategy is cut short in these kind of matches.. its not like hes going to go train in high kicks cause they wont let him punch to the face, cause wc doesnt kick high an by training in high kicks is not wc, no one should change their style to fight in one tournament, maybe they should make it that no kicks to the face just stomach an all punches can hit anywhere to fit the wc stylist? But they wont.. cause thats not hosted by wc.

Or maybe the rules fit both an the wc still loses... but dont judge a style when a style is out of its element fighting under another styles rules that limits them.

[ammocase]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45897

read this guys post.. an see how he explains when a kyokushinkai fighter sparred in a set of rules that werent his styles own.. a great fighter who was thrown off his game set when punching to the head was allowed... you can see my point there if you dont get it yet

[Liddel]

you can see my point there if you dont get it yet

Ammocase - stating the rules are what hindered the VT guy is one thing.

Stating that VT hasnt got any high kicks (agreed) and this also contributed to him having trouble is plain silly IMO.

Look at the vid again !

Its quite evident that the karate guy used a few LOW kicks, which the VT guy given more experience could have done also RIGHT ? given thats what we train.

So this IMO, is not a valid excuse for the SAKE of this discussion especially when one guy in the fight uses low kicks, wouldnt you agree ?

The guy was just out of his depth, no need to make excuses for him.
:cool:

[PangQuan]

IMO

the wing chun fighter was in lousy shape. thats why a stomach shot dropped him.

he needs body conditioning if he wants to be a fighter. being able to take a hit is half of fighting

thats a start......

he could try some sit ups maybe.

over all i think he was a bad man to have represent a style. ive seen people in much better shape, which generally means they train harder, longer, better.

he lost because he was not as good as his opponent.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Funny coming from someone with twice as many posts as me." (Terence)


***I GUESS YOU DIDN'T GET THE MEMO...


The one that said that Quality can have a Quantity all its own. :p :cool: :D

[ammocase]

Ammocase - stating the rules are what hindered the VT guy is one thing.

Stating that VT hasnt got any high kicks (agreed) and this also contributed to him having trouble is plain silly IMO.

Look at the vid again !

:

Im not primarily focused on the little twirp in the video, i mean in wing chun in general or any style in general who fights out of their elements against a style whos training style reflects on the rules set.

Just means the karateka had one less thing to worry about ( the wc guy kicking high ) an the WC had another thing to worry about.

Bascially kick high/low an punch low.... thats it. WC shouldnt compete in something like that, you need to be extra nasty to excell at that an to restort to an envoriment that is not something your trained for. An i fought in sabaki/kyokusinkai style matches when i trained in shotokan, an those low punches to set up the high roundhouse was beautiful in execution, or that high hook kick then low roundhouse followed by like reverse punches was devastating.

[Liddel]

WC shouldnt compete in something like that, you need to be extra nasty to excell at that an to restort to an envoriment that is not something your trained for.

I used to see it that way mate and i can see your point. However, one could argue that if you changed the rules in that comp to allow head shots for instance. The other guy can now ALSO punch to the head, so its kinda moot IMO.

Does six inches of height difference ( hitting the chest rather than the head) really make all that difference with your VT ?

Another point id like to make is that if you dont train head and body shots its something you may want to practice...because if you can win under those rules then under no rules youd be even more formidable IMO.

Its just my POV. :o

[SanHeChuan]

Does six inches of height difference ( hitting the chest rather than the head) really make all that difference with your VT ?

Hell YES, body shots do not cause unconsciousness!:rolleyes:

[ammocase]

I used to see it that way mate and i can see your point. However, one could argue that if you changed the rules in that comp to allow head shots for instance. The other guy can now ALSO punch to the head, so its kinda moot IMO.


Seeing all those baragges of punches flying from the WC guy compared to the karateka.. imagine if it was aimed at the head, look at the link i put up of mr flying WC goof.. he chain punched the guy in the face till he was down an he was smaller then him... it doesnt take much hits to the head especially considering the kyokusinkai was more conditioned in the mid section then the wc guy...

I dont know about your style but my WC style many shots are to the head. most fights i seen by wc people are aimed at the head ( not that wc is primarily headhunters but google a video or check a class out an see ), an atleast it evens things up since mas oyama style would have to deal with a whole new stratgey of defending their head from punches an strikes when they arent used to training like that for competetion.



Does six inches of height difference ( hitting the chest rather than the head) really make all that difference with your VT ?



yes it defintley does.. im suprised its even questioned lol.. i kickboxed an did karate an now wing chun, i fought in my fair matches of fights. When it comes to opening hands to the head... its not about inches why would anyone ever say that... not at all, midsection an the head area as targets is way more then just inches. Its a whole new mind set. An you are aware that high punches telegraph more? Opening the head a new set of combinations open up as well... an you got a guy whos only used to defending his high area only when he sees his oponent shift for a kick. Vision gets obscured more with hand to head shots.. an so on an so on.

[Wayfaring]

Hell YES, body shots do not cause unconsciousness!:rolleyes:

I remember watching a full contact kickboxing match where Benny Urquidez knocked his opponent unconscious with a kick to the body.

[ammocase]

I remember watching a full contact kickboxing match where Benny Urquidez knocked his opponent unconscious with a kick to the body.

Lol you serious? How the hell... tramatic brain shock/ injury is what causes this... its a drop in mental state. Tho i have heard its possible if its hit hard enough an the "jet" must have socked that fool good.

I seen people fall unconscious when they mistakenly walked into a cabinet door an banged their temples to it lol...

[Ultimatewingchun]

A powerful kick to the solar plexus can easily put someone down for 5 minutes or more. I've been on both ends of that.

[Vajramusti]

That pic has made the rounds before. Without taking away the power of the
Oyama style kicker...
1. Many styles of karate, judo, bjj have some quality control.
2. Wing chun given its diversity does not have overall stylistric quality control.Big gulfs between good and bad wing chun.
3.the wc guy in the u tube- I dont know where he learned or who his sifu was/is.
He obviously didnt learn much... very poor structure, very poor balance and footwork and very underdeveloped punching ability.
4. Given the rules on no head shots- still- given the opportunities he had-he should have been able to put the person down- even if the other guy was wearing a protector..IMHO, FWIW
5.Further he didnt show wc knowledge on protection.
6. Cant judge styles by naively watching u tube.IMHO.FWIW
Experience in "seeing" things matter, me thinks.

joy chaudhuri

[Liddel]

Hell YES, body shots do not cause unconsciousness!:rolleyes:

They can... momentarily, which can stop a fight.
What do you consider a win ?

The guy was going down after one good body shot, this then gives an oppotunity to stomp the poor guy in a real encounter....

So yes, a good body shot can produce fight ending results.

[Liddel]

Seeing all those baragges of punches flying from the WC guy compared to the karateka..
If ten of the WC guys punches to chest did nothing - compared with one punch to the chest from his opponent, dropping him.

Obviously if both were able to shoot for the head id put my money on the karate guy... he has power.
The other guy has poor fighting skills whatever his style.

Im a VT man, but that doesnt bias my view on this situation. :rolleyes:



I dont know about your style but my WC style many shots are to the head.

My VT stresses hitting open space, with kicks, punches, palms and elbows. If the head is open then sure i go there. Im not so sure of myself to believe that every person i fight will leave thier head open for me.

Tito Ortiz - "Train for the worst, and the best will always happen" LOL :p



yes it defintley does.. im suprised its even questioned lol..

It's points orientated is it not ?
If it wernt for the fact his blocking was crap and hed never heard the saying - "when your greedy with punches mind your empty space" he may have had a chance of winning....

It seems we have a different POV, cheers for the chat.
;)

[Liddel]

Im having a slow day at work, thought you guys might like to see some clips semi related to this thread.....enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22-c96yHngA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpAV9PM3XGc

[Vajramusti]

Both do powerful bodywork. Both shots were "liver" shots- where the lobe of the liver comes down on the right front side of the body. Those punches were delivered from a boxing structure. Parallel work can be done witha wing chun structure. There are mok jong motions that can be practiced.

On the right side Roy Jones Jr in his prime put down a supermiddleweight
ina championship match witha right hand body punch that put his opponent down completely...floating rib punch that actually broke a rib. Since wc is ambidextrous-- one can practice on the jong on both sides ---with proper wing chun balanced footwork.

joy chaudhuri

[drleungjohn]

I can say a body shot-delivered well-(and if you don't think you can't get knocked out by one-have a real boxer hit you)-stops your breathing,causes diaphragm spasm,whole side body pain,a "nobodies home " consciousness and an inability to move-what is also importnat is that the sensory nerves are ascending pathways that once reaching the brain-cross over to the other side--which means a seemingly little love tap to the head after a body shot,is magnified neurologically-so it actually overloads the CNS-so a left low hook,left high,hook, right cross is more devastating then you think-

[planetwc]

BS.

That was a junior Wing Chun guy facing off with one of Oyama's top fighters.
Why didn't Oyama have William Cheung's old school fighters in the tournament?
Joe Mohengi, Rick Spain etc. They would have beat some @ss down.

That whole tournament was designed to make Kyokushinkai appear to be the best in the world, and to specifically make the Japanese fighters the best. I've watched the entire movie and it is quite clear that was the goal.

Oyama picked weaker fighters where he could and where there were stronger fighters they then were made to run through a gauntlet of increasingly larger fighters to wear them down. You could see that with the Muay Thai fighters for example. They had featherweight Muay Thai fighters that ended up having to face heavyweight challengers to continue.

The US, French and UK fighters had to maul each other first.
In the end the top 3 japanese fighters won. Surprise surprise.


What happened? Theoretical nonfighter meeting reality.

[leroyjnsn]

That wasnt Ving Tsun, that was GARBAGE!!!!!!! :o

[ammocase]

WC vs Kickboxing...

You people say the shrimp in the first vid was a bad WC fighter, k see a medicore WC guy fight a weak kickboxer... are people so quick to judge the style of kickboxing, the same way they judged the style of WC in the vid of the original post ( not really pointing this site out, just in general)?

An i study both of these arts.. so no hate from me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlRPDhuX1DY

[t_niehoff]

BS.

That was a junior Wing Chun guy facing off with one of Oyama's top fighters.
Why didn't Oyama have William Cheung's old school fighters in the tournament?
Joe Mohengi, Rick Spain etc. They would have beat some @ss down.

That whole tournament was designed to make Kyokushinkai appear to be the best in the world, and to specifically make the Japanese fighters the best. I've watched the entire movie and it is quite clear that was the goal.

Oyama picked weaker fighters where he could and where there were stronger fighters they then were made to run through a gauntlet of increasingly larger fighters to wear them down. You could see that with the Muay Thai fighters for example. They had featherweight Muay Thai fighters that ended up having to face heavyweight challengers to continue.

The US, French and UK fighters had to maul each other first.
In the end the top 3 japanese fighters won. Surprise surprise.

David, no argument from me -- it was a propaganda show, and the kyokushikai people did pick the weakest pups from the litter to fight with. Certainly there were at the time good WCK fighters, like those you mentioned. But as Andrew pointed out, you could see from how the WCK guy moved and trained he wasn't a fighter and wasn't training like a fighter.

[anerlich]

What year did this happen? Is it out of "The strongest Karate"? That's got to be at least 20 years old ..

The WC guy was seriously unfit (check that six-pack - NOT) and (yes Terence) didn't train realistically. Hard to tell from the clip, but he looked a fair bit lighter than the Karate guy as well. I'm surprised he lasted as long as he did, to be honest.

Lamb to the slaughter.

I think a stomach shot that would cause unconsciousness would be pretty rare. But I've taken some body shots so painful and wind-removing that I WISHED I'd been knocked out ...

[Matrix]

Let's face it. The clip does not represent WC any more than this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qlyr3pRZwSE)represents Muay Thai. :rolleyes: You just can't take all these clips at face value.