Old School Strongman training for Kung Fu.

[Royal Dragon]

Has anyone ever looked into the methods of old school strongmen to condition for Kung fu?

[MasterKiller]

It's called lifting weights.

[Royal Dragon]

I don't mean conventional bar bell stuff, I mean Old school strongman training, like throwing logs or lifting wiskey barrells and stuff like that.

[SevenStar]

Last summer, I worked out with guys who compete in national strongman competitions. I will probably do it again this summer. It's one of the hardest things I've ever done. They have a set up with all of the events they compete in - yoke carry, stones, log press, tire flip, farmer's walk, sled drag, etc. good stuff. I blogged about it in my blog on the training forum.

[Royal Dragon]

I probably should have started this thread in the training forum.

What experiance i have had with those guy is that they seem (at least) to be much stronger than weight lifters of similar size. i don't know if it's because they work muscle groups to perform tasks, and weight lifters isolate more, or if it's just a perceptual thing on my part.

[neilhytholt]

Shaolin had stone locks and balls and stuff. :)

[SevenStar]

kinesthetic strength combined with a method of strength training that is teaching the body to act as a single unit.

[phoenixrising]

Sevenstar, I beg to differ. I think the difference is the old timers had alot more tendon/stabilizer strength and this is the difference Royal Dragon perceives. The tendon/stabilizer strength comes as a result of carrying and lifting oddshaped/off balance objects such as full kegs,...'alive' weights. Also comes from supporting feats and one handed lifts- bent press, etc... This is 'real', highly transferable, practical strength. Dinosaur training=recommended reading.

ps- No Royal Dragon, I'm not training 6 elbows anymore

pps- I'm cool

[SevenStar]

like I said - kinesthetic strength. enhanced body awareness.

[Li Kao]

I worked one summer with my grandfather, who was a mason, and let me tell you, schlepping concrete is a good way to build some real functional strength too -- my grandfather, at 60, could run circles around me when I was 18 and in pretty good shape. He wasn't a large man, but when he shook your hand it was like getting squeezed in a vice. Not that I'm advocating running down and joining the local Masons Union, just adding an observation.

[Royal Dragon]

I think the difference is the old timers had alot more tendon/stabilizer strength and this is the difference Royal Dragon perceives.

Reply]
What the heck is "Tendon" strength? A Tendon does not make useable strength. It is like a piece of steel rope, it cannot contract, and thearfore it's not capeable of producing strength. All it does is connect the MUSCLE to the bone. The muscle makes all the strength.

[phoenixrising]

Re; tendon strength

Well, I'm not a scientist, but I do know that both the old chinese and the old time strongmen both talked about tendon strength and considered it important. One of the ways the strongmen developed it was through lockouts and holds. One example is the farmers walk (or farmers 'stand'- can be done not moving.) Take a 75 lb. dumbell in each hand, totally straighten your arms out down at your sides, hold for as long as possible. What do you think/does it feel like this is developing? Same principle as 'iron board.'

ps- baby, I didn't do it! And I still wanna know who Brian is (I'll kill him!:mad: :mad: :mad: )

[Royal Dragon]

Here is the thing, just about anything you do to build the muscles, developes the tendons, bones and joints.

Tendons develope more tensile strength, but they don't have any functional useable strength like a muscle does. They just develope a resistance to damage.

[neilhytholt]

Re; tendon strength


There's no such thing as tendon strength as has been talked about endlessly on here, tendons don't get stronger by themselves.

Do you think they mean slow twitch vs. fast twitch muscles?

[WinterPalm]

I think that type of training is good especially for clinch and wrestling type training but it is hard to balance that kind of stuff with regular practice and hard sparring sessions without getting too worn out. If you are going to strength train, that stuff is good but probably at a 6-8 rep scheme rather than all out for a couple seconds.
Personally I think the best stuff is circuits of weighted and bodyweighted exercises that push you to the limites of strength and endurance at the same time...not entirely max strength developing but very good for system as a whole.
I like to think that as kung fu guys we need to be very explosive and agile so that additional training for this is a good thing. Not saying traditional weight lifting is a bad thing, as I think everyone should deadlift to prevent their backs from getting weak, but odd shaped objects and thick-bar stuff, strongman steel beding, pushing cars, hitting a tire with a sledge-hammer, that is far more fun as well!

[X_plosion]

Have you tried looking at the scanned books available on http://www.sandowplus.co.uk? It's pretty interesting reading, especially as some of the old time strongmen were boxers and wrestlers too.

Also do a google search for fulcrum fitness. They had a scan of an article where training with sandbags was featured. They've also got Jack Dempsey's Championship Fighting book, which is great if you're into "Old school" boxing.

[SevenStar]

Re; tendon strength

Well, I'm not a scientist, but I do know that both the old chinese and the old time strongmen both talked about tendon strength and considered it important. One of the ways the strongmen developed it was through lockouts and holds. One example is the farmers walk (or farmers 'stand'- can be done not moving.) Take a 75 lb. dumbell in each hand, totally straighten your arms out down at your sides, hold for as long as possible. What do you think/does it feel like this is developing? Same principle as 'iron board.'

ps- baby, I didn't do it! And I still wanna know who Brian is (I'll kill him!:mad: :mad: :mad: )

it is stabilizers. part of the problem with martial arts and strength training is that most MAists know absolutely nothing about strength training. as stated, tendons cannot produce power output.. the purpose of the farmer's walk isn't to develop this lockout ability you mentioned.

[SevenStar]

I think that type of training is good especially for clinch and wrestling type training but it is hard to balance that kind of stuff with regular practice and hard sparring sessions without getting too worn out. If you are going to strength train, that stuff is good but probably at a 6-8 rep scheme rather than all out for a couple seconds.
Personally I think the best stuff is circuits of weighted and bodyweighted exercises that push you to the limites of strength and endurance at the same time...not entirely max strength developing but very good for system as a whole.
I like to think that as kung fu guys we need to be very explosive and agile so that additional training for this is a good thing. Not saying traditional weight lifting is a bad thing, as I think everyone should deadlift to prevent their backs from getting weak, but odd shaped objects and thick-bar stuff, strongman steel beding, pushing cars, hitting a tire with a sledge-hammer, that is far more fun as well!

you can balance it out. I did it once per week, in addition to my other strength and ma training. the events are more speed and max strength based, so we never simply held a position, like dude was describing.

[phoenixrising]

actually, I think the farmer's walk is considered to be a walking lockout.

[Crosshandz]

it is stabilizers. part of the problem with martial arts and strength training is that most MAists know absolutely nothing about strength training. as stated, tendons cannot produce power output.. the purpose of the farmer's walk isn't to develop this lockout ability you mentioned.

Yes, this was one of Wang Xiangzhai's bones of contention when he criticised traditional terminology of training 'tendons and bones' and threw out the old jargon in the formative period of Yiquan. The training of 'tendons and bones' as you say is the training of the red muscle tissue which perform the stabilizing function in the body.

[_William_]

I think you are going down the wrong route if you are looking to 1800s strongmen for info, too much of it is clouded with superstitions with some exceptions. Strength was very much a fringe during that time. Training has advanced considerably since then, in terms of training systems, methodologys, technique, and understanding of the human body and adaptations to training.

The key is to dig deep... you won't find it in the average gym or in glossy bodybuilding mags. I agree that strongman training is of value... I disagree that it is necessary to look to the 1800s to learn how to implement it.

I think a lot of martial artists look at the typical gym rat... the typical kind you see with slouched shoulders, big arms, weak hips and legs, and dare I say it... unfunctional. And seeing this, many assume this is the necessary result of strength training. This is not so.

Look to the source. Look at how strength training is applied in an athletic setting, by elite athletes, and by coaches that actually know what they are doing...Look at how strength, power, speed, and movement efficiency is improved.

[Royal Dragon]

I think you are going down the wrong route if you are looking to 1800s strongmen for info, too much of it is clouded with superstitions with some exceptions.

Reply]
I'm not specifically talking about 1800's stuff (Although I'm not excluding it either), but more of the old ways of doing things that are not found in modern strength training gyms, but commonly seen in Strongman contests.


For example, dragging ship anchores, lifting wiskey barrels, moving big logs from place to place, bolder throwing, early frontier style log sawing, rolling frying pans up like news paper etc....

Strength was very much a fringe during that time. Training has advanced considerably since then, in terms of training systems, methodologys, technique, and understanding of the human body and adaptations to training.

Reply]
I am not so sure about that, I think a species that is 200,000 years old, like H0mo Sapiens would have pretty much figured it out buy the 1800's

The greatest advances have occured with the science of recoverytimes more than anything. The avaliablity of wide spread knowledge would be the other. Outside of that, is there anything we do now that is drastically different than in the distant past?

I think we just have more expensive, "high production manufactured" equipment....

Even the few primitave hunter gatherer tribes still around today (like the Zaowie trib in South America) wrestle with a spohistication on par with the average modern BJJ practitioner...and have for countless generations...

[Crosshandz]

I think you are going down the wrong route if you are looking to 1800s strongmen for info, too much of it is clouded with superstitions with some exceptions.

Reply]
I'm not specifically talking about 1800's stuff (Although I'm not excluding it either), but more of the old ways of doing things that are not found in modern strength training gyms, but commonly seen in Strongman contests.


For example, dragging ship anchores, lifting wiskey barrels, moving big logs from place to place, bolder throwing, early frontier style log sawing, rolling frying pans up like news paper etc....

Strength was very much a fringe during that time. Training has advanced considerably since then, in terms of training systems, methodologys, technique, and understanding of the human body and adaptations to training.

Reply]
I am not so sure about that, I think a species that is 200,000 years old, like H0mo Sapiens would have pretty much figured it out buy the 1800's

The greatest advances have occured with the science of recoverytimes more than anything. The avaliablity of wide spread knowledge would be the other. Outside of that, is there anything we do now that is drastically different than in the distant past?

I think we just have more expensive, "high production manufactured" equipment....

Even the few primitave hunter gatherer tribes still around today (like the Zaowie trib in South America) wrestle with a spohistication on par with the average modern BJJ practitioner...and have for countless generations...

I would agree with what you say about recovery times at least in the West. In the East however stabiliser strength is a mainstay. The vast majority of Eastern Martial Qigong methods are about teaching the body to utilise the power of the stabalisers with the mobilisers ( even though they may not express themselves in this way c.f. Zhan Zhuang foundation of internal martial arts by Karel Koskuba (http://www.yiquan.org.uk/art-zz.html) ). Whilst the Soviet government appears to have invested heavily in trying to understand stabilising muscle strength if what I have heard around Pavel Tsatsouline's methods is true.

Generally, I agree that many modern training tools develop dead strength in localised fast-twice muscle tissue rather than developing whole body strength that starts at the core and uses the slow-twich muscles to drive the movment of the body. I think the good old fashioned strongmen had a lot to say for themselves? (Anyone ever read up on early 20th century strongman Otto Arco's muscle control methods?) The functional strength developed by tossing and catching heavy sandbags or beer kegs will make a monster of you. Once I've developed my sensitivity to a high enough level that I know I'm using the right muscle tissue to drive my motions thats exactly the direction I'm headed in.

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah, I agree. I think the strongman crowd has the methods for superior functional strength. Much of the modern stuff is about isolation, and that is really proven to be ineficent for developing raw, useable strength.

I think that is why there is such a resurgence in the older methods, like Kettlebells, and old school strongman training.

[SevenStar]

I wouldn't call it old school. it is not like people ever stopped using these methods, there are just different crowds of athletes - bodybuilders, strength guys, endurance guys, general fitness guys, etc. allof these groups have benefitted from modern knowledge.

[stricker]

Even the few primitave hunter gatherer tribes still around today (like the Zaowie trib in South America) wrestle with a spohistication on par with the average modern BJJ practitioner...and have for countless generations...have you got any sources/references for this? youtube clips?

cheers.

[Royal Dragon]

Nothing on Youtube, but the segment on the Zaowie was on discovery channel, and is shown from time to time.

I found it really interesting, they interviewed their Champoin wrestler, and showed some of thier matches.

It's interesting, but the Zaowie women wrestle too, right along with the guys.

[SevenStar]

Every civilization since the beginning of time has had some sort of folk wrestling. Naturally, there will be those who are very good at it. I am not sure how common submission is, though. Most of what I have seen of other cultures is wrestling, but not much submission.

[Royal Dragon]

They were doing joint locks wile on the ground to get the opponent to give up, or pinning them so they cannnot move.

Thier wrestling starts on the ground, with both opponents on all 4s facing eachother. They circle on all 4s very rapidy (Looks like two Badgers or Raccons going at it), untill one attacks and goes for the pin or locks a joint. The defender defends, counters and can turn the tables.

[BentMonk]

FYI Fulcrum Fitness is now Iron Body. The site is: www.iron-body.com The Jack Dempsey book is there, along with lots of other useful info pertaining to this discussion. Kettlebells are very effective. I have no doubt with the success of "300" old school training will be the new buzz thing. I've been doing KBs for almost five years, and the results are awesome.

[GeneChing]

Photos: The 2013 Chinese Hercules Challenge (http://shanghaiist.com/2013/10/10/photos_the_2013_chinese_hercules_ch.php)

http://shanghaiist.com/assets_c/2013/10/chinese-hercules-challenge-1-thumb-640x425-812416.jpg
Yesterday the city of Xianyang hosted the 2013 Chinese Hercules Challenge, inviting 22 contestants from all over the world to participate in events like bouldering, heavy rock lifting, and car-pulling. Hilarious photos ensue.

http://shanghaiist.com/upload/2013/10/chinese-hercules-challenge-2.jpg
http://shanghaiist.com/upload/2013/10/chinese-hercules-challenge-3.jpg
http://shanghaiist.com/upload/2013/10/chinese-hercules-challenge-4.jpg
http://shanghaiist.com/upload/2013/10/chinese-hercules-challenge-5.jpg
http://shanghaiist.com/upload/2013/10/chinese-hercules-challenge-6.jpg
http://shanghaiist.com/upload/2013/10/chinese-hercules-challenge-7.jpg
http://shanghaiist.com/upload/2013/10/chinese-hercules-challenge-8.jpg
http://shanghaiist.com/upload/2013/10/chinese-hercules-challenge-9.jpg

TC Media Intl. produced a strongman contest DVD - Atomic Athletic Great Black Swamp Olde Time Strongman Picnic (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-wctv001.html)

[Kevin73]

I think the difference is the old timers had alot more tendon/stabilizer strength and this is the difference Royal Dragon perceives.

Reply]
What the heck is "Tendon" strength? A Tendon does not make useable strength. It is like a piece of steel rope, it cannot contract, and thearfore it's not capeable of producing strength. All it does is connect the MUSCLE to the bone. The muscle makes all the strength.

I think that a "steel rope" or chain is a very good description. As you pointed out, it can't produce strength on it's own. But, if we go back to the chain/rope analogy it explains what people are trying to get across.

Your muscles are strong enough that if fully flexed they could rip themselves off of the bone. To prevent this your body has "fuses" so to speak that inhibit maximum contractions. The stronger that your tendons are, the stronger the muscle is allowed to contract without the tripping the body's safety mechanism. Just like the stronger the cable or chain, the more load/weight I can pull or support with the mover of the weight and the weight itself. It doesn't matter how powerful the engine is if the connecting chain/rope isn't strong enough to support the weight being pulled.

So, when people talk about "tendon strength" I always took it to mean how strong the tendon was itself in helping secure the muscles. If I have a stronger connecting tissue, the muscles themselves can work more to their full potentional.

[bawang]

So, when people talk about "tendon strength" I always took it to mean how strong the tendon was itself in helping secure the muscles. If I have a stronger connecting tissue, the muscles themselves can work more to their full potentional.

the good news is you are right. tendon strength exists and is important. the bad news is, tendon strength is achieved by weight lifting.

[Kevin73]

the good news is you are right. tendon strength exists and is important. the bad news is, tendon strength is achieved by weight lifting.

I dont' think that is bad news at all. I think that even though lifting heavy weights is hard, that it is easy enough to do. You don't have to train in some mystical or magical system and drink lots of different herbs to achieve the results. Just lift heavy and do the hard work and you get results.

[bawang]

I dont' think that is bad news at all. I think that even though lifting heavy weights is hard, that it is easy enough to do. You don't have to train in some mystical or magical system and drink lots of different herbs to achieve the results. Just lift heavy and do the hard work and you get results.

tendon strength is gained by doing very light weights for 100-200 reps.

[Kevin73]

tendon strength is gained by doing very light weights for 100-200 reps.

That's one way. Also very heavy lifts will do it as well.

[bawang]

That's one way. Also very heavy lifts will do it as well.

if u take deca

[Kevin73]

if u take deca

Oldtime strongmen did it all the time before they had even invented anabolic steroids. Lifting progressively heavier weights and doing lockouts and partial reps will build tendon strength without drugs.

[MarathonTmatt]

Cool! I do lots of reps (100- 200X's) w/ smaller weights (20-30 lb. dumbbells.) (Bawang says it's good for tendon build-up).

Question: I notice when I lift while working out, I don't go too heavy. When I am working manual labor though I end up lifting much more heavier stuff w/ no problem for longer periods of time (hauling things around and what not- a "farmer's work-out" so to speak.) Why do you think this is, if I am not up to this challenge in a weight-lifting work-out session but am doing it no problem when working a job?

[Kevin73]

Cool! I do lots of reps (100- 200X's) w/ smaller weights (20-30 lb. dumbbells.) (Bawang says it's good for tendon build-up).

Question: I notice when I lift while working out, I don't go too heavy. When I am working manual labor though I end up lifting much more heavier stuff w/ no problem for longer periods of time (hauling things around and what not- a "farmer's work-out" so to speak.) Why do you think this is, if I am not up to this challenge in a weight-lifting work-out session but am doing it no problem when working a job?

I would say "adaptive response". Doing the activity itself is the best way to do the activity. Weight lifting will transfer some benefits to an activity, but most lifts do not replicate 100% what your activity actually is.

Even with a bigger, stronger muscle it will only benefit you when you learn "how" to use that extra muscle for the activity by doing that activity. I think this is what leads to the fallacy of "functional strength" vs. "show muscles". Muscle is muscle, but a person may learn to use that muscle by training an activity and putting it to good use. Others ONLY do lifting and that's all they like to do, so their body doesn't have the neural pathways to use the muscle more effectively in the new activity.

[MarathonTmatt]

thanks, kevin.
that makes a lot of sense, thank you for the input!

[bawang]

Cool! I do lots of reps (100- 200X's) w/ smaller weights (20-30 lb. dumbbells.) (Bawang says it's good for tendon build-up).

Question: I notice when I lift while working out, I don't go too heavy. When I am working manual labor though I end up lifting much more heavier stuff w/ no problem for longer periods of time (hauling things around and what not- a "farmer's work-out" so to speak.) Why do you think this is, if I am not up to this challenge in a weight-lifting work-out session but am doing it no problem when working a job?

your manual labor job is your main workout. your 100 rep workout is active recovery aka feeder workout. your body cant take more workouts.

if you take a break from labor your lift will go thru the roof

[MarathonTmatt]

this is all making sense. thanks!