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The Xia
04-13-2007, 06:12 PM
I'm interested in core concepts and characteristics of each of the ten animals. I'm also interested in the usage of the cripple and immortal forms. You can also talk about the style's history, personal experiences. Pretty much anything Hung Fut. :)

BruceSteveRoy
04-13-2007, 06:23 PM
well since this is really only addressed to like 4 people (as far as i know) you might be waiting a little while. my suggestion is try to persuade brothernumber 9 into a conversation that dude is a wealth of knowledge and a heck of a guy.

as for me i will tell you what i know but i wouldn't say its a lot. but it will probably wait til monday morning/afternoon when i am at work and finished with my days business. sorry.

so remember to bump this thread to the top on monday morning or PM me and remind me. other than that click on my school link in my sig and read whats there. its a good starting point.

The Xia
04-13-2007, 06:26 PM
Is that a play on Bruce Leeroy? :D
Anyway, thanks for the response. I have read your sifu's website. I'm curious about the style but it seems far less widespread in the U.S. then many other arts and it's not easy to find info on the actual art of Hung Fut online. I'll keep it in mind to bump this thread up on monday if it starts to die.

Laukarbo
04-13-2007, 06:28 PM
There was this one arm form video clip on youtube performed by the son of a well known Hung Fut Sifu in HK but since the form is sooo secret it had to be taken off again...(well this was politily asked by a certain "Sifu ",an US representitive)
Anyway this wont be for long because since they openly demo´d the form in HK/Kowloon park it was filmed by many tourists and I been told someone will upload this soon..(all secret infos I unfold here):D

*to be honest,thats why kung fu is getting laughed at too many of the practitioner and theoretics (is that aword?) are acting with their noddle up their arse...

Heres a good site for Hung Fut www.hungfutph.com
those guys living in todays world;)

The Xia
04-13-2007, 06:36 PM
Thanks for the link. :)
It has good reading. I found a video from their school on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kMtzBDKk_Y
Very nice showcase of TCMA conditioning.
Oh, and I saw that video you mentioned before it was taken down. :D
I think there is also a video of Sifu Tai Yim doing that form somewhere on youtube.

ngokfei
04-13-2007, 08:13 PM
SECRET FORMS

yeah saw this form being performed in Hong Kong. Nicely Done. A very esoteric set but how advanced could it really be.

Now as for the Crazy Staff form. It is a treasured pole form in Hung Fut. But it also has been demonstrated in public. I've got that on tape somewhere.:D

The Xia
04-13-2007, 08:31 PM
Now as for the Crazy Staff form. It is a treasured pole form in Hung Fut. But it also has been demonstrated in public. I've got that on tape somewhere.:D
The famous Mad Devil Staff!
That tape public? :D

Lama Pai Sifu
04-14-2007, 07:42 AM
There are several versions of the left handed form. I've seen Tai Yim do it and I've seen the one in Hong Kong, they are very different. My Sifu taught a version of it as well, which was still different. Don't get me wrong, they are all similiar, but the patterns are all different.

I have not seen the staff form thougt. It was the first thing that my Sifu, Chan Tai-San had learned from Bok Mo Jiu, but I never asked to learn it. I would like to see it though (ERIC!!).

Peace.

ngokfei
04-14-2007, 10:08 AM
Like any style there are different versions of the same set.

Mike
Remind me in about a week through e-mail. I'm in the process of fixing up my basement studio and had to put everything back into boxes:eek: Only took me 3years to get them out when I moved down here.

Its from a Hong Kong Demo I think back in the Late 80's You got things being demonstrated like Choy Mok, CLF, HG, Hung Fut Horse Chopper, White Crane, etc.

You know I think it was commercially produced because I remember there were title lines under each form (even though they were out of order:confused: )

Lama Pai Sifu
04-14-2007, 01:33 PM
Sounds Cool, Eric. I'll hit you up in about a week or so.

M

poorboy
04-14-2007, 06:23 PM
there's a movie called "the four invincibles" which features hung gum poi's (the hk sifu mentioned earlier) version of the hf crippled style. it also features hf techniques. he also choreographed the fight scenes and you see him doing some cripple poses in the 1st 5 seconds of the film.

hkflix has it for 6.95 but i have to warn you that the movie is really bad (terrible) but it's worth watching once.

jmd161
04-15-2007, 11:42 AM
I'm interested in core concepts and characteristics of each of the ten animals. I'm also interested in the usage of the cripple and immortal forms. You can also talk about the style's history, personal experiences. Pretty much anything Hung Fut. :)


To be honest I don't think you're going to get anyone to talk about the Cripple or Immortals forms on a public forum. It's just not something most Hung Fut people I know would do. I've learned just a bit of Hung Fut, but not enough to tell you much about the system. I know Hung Fut and Hak Fu Mun share a lot in common, you could say we have more in common with each other, than either does with it's sister art Hung Gar. We both share the same Ten Animals snake,crane,tiger,leopard,dragon,horse,monkey,elep hant,eagle,and lion. I know that in Hak Fu Mun just like within Hung Fut we use the eagle and horse almost exactly the same.

Hung Fut has a One Armed form and Chopsticks and Bowl form as does Hak Fu Mun. Do to Grandmaster Wong Cheung also learning Hung Fut from White haired Devil (Hung Ju Sing or Bak Mou Jiu) We also have their Crazy devil and a couple other staff forms. Other than that I can't help you with too much..sorry!


jeff:)

Steeeve
04-15-2007, 05:06 PM
here the crazy devil staff of hung fut

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI_t3pOEDxo

Steeve:)

brothernumber9
04-16-2007, 05:06 AM
without having ever seen Mad Devil staff form, I can say for certain, that clip is NOT THE mad devil staff form. There are several forms with the name "mad devil" or "fung Mo" in them, this may be one of those, but is certainly not the treasure.

Lama Pai Sifu
04-16-2007, 05:51 AM
without having ever seen Mad Devil staff form, I can say for certain, that clip is NOT THE mad devil staff form. There are several forms with the name "mad devil" or "fung Mo" in them, this may be one of those, but is certainly not the treasure.

I was under the impression that it is 'left-handed', no?? That form was not.

hakka jai
04-16-2007, 06:19 AM
hi guys,
seal fung mor (small mad devil),mui fa (plum blossum ) & dai fung mor (big mad devil). SMD is the most commonly demoed but often cut short in demos as it is long ,rarely demo'd is DFM as this is the most advanced in HF & i have still to see it demo'd even in HK - mui fa kwan,i know as i know theses pole forms in their entirety. It is known the Hung yiu cheung ,created smaller/lesser staff forms so that beginners could learn the staff more easily. As for 1 armed forms ,1 was created by hung kor san & the other that goes by the name of yim yeurng sau that uses the left arm 1st then 1/2 way through the form switches to the right arm to complete the rest of the form that was created by hung yiu cheung.
As RE to the form performed by hung gum poi's son on youtube(1 armed form) - similar to the both i know but have seen it done better. hope that clears as to who's got want form. yim tai's version of 1 arm form is good that i seen on the net.

cheers
hakka jai :)

CLFNole
04-16-2007, 07:05 AM
Watch the form again it is left handed.

Lama Pai Sifu
04-16-2007, 07:47 PM
The staff form??

CLFNole
04-16-2007, 08:01 PM
Yeah the one they said is the fung mor kwun it is played left handed.

hakka jai
04-17-2007, 02:51 AM
hi folks,
all the staff & long handed weapons are played left handed in hf.

cheers
hakka jai:)

CLFNole
04-17-2007, 08:10 AM
The whole system is left hand dominant isn't it?

jmd161
04-17-2007, 08:22 AM
The whole system is left hand dominant isn't it?


Correct!


jeff:)

brothernumber9
04-17-2007, 10:01 AM
left side forward, yes. Left side dominant, no.

jmd161
04-17-2007, 10:11 AM
left side forward, yes. Left side dominant, no.


Sorry! That's actually what I was thinking when posting, not the dominant part. The little I've learned of Hung Fut I like a lot, it really reminds me so much of Hak Fu Mun in so many ways. Very good practical stuff.


jeff:)

CLFNole
04-17-2007, 10:32 AM
I thought it was considered the "left-handed style", whereas most of the strikes are done with the left hand compared to other styles like CLF (my style), where the right had generally (not always) does the striking.

brothernumber9
04-17-2007, 10:59 AM
Most of the power techs are practiced with the right hand in the sets. They are practiced both sides in drills

I'm not really sure how the "left handed" tag got stuck on HF outside of the pole and long weapons forms and the left handed fist set. In my own limited experience, and observations, HF is very very similar to Hung Sing CLF, and Jow Ga, and of course Hung Ga and FUt Ga. Perhaps the main differences are on what techs and accompanying footwork is favored, and the frequency of techs per set stance in sets, but that may even be a non issue.

Perhaps White Haired Devil (Bok Mo Jiu) was left handed. I never even asked about that. He is the one that really put HF on the public map outside of Ho family village, which is where the Phillipine branch traces back to.

There are a bunch of thoughts and opinions I have for discussion, but may not even be pertinent at this point.

The most recent aspect of the "left handed"-ness has piqued my brain a bit though. I will ask my Sifu a little about it.

CLFNole
04-17-2007, 11:15 AM
Brothernumber9:

Yeah, everything that I have ever read about hung fut always mentions the "left hand" style so I always figured you guys just struck more with the left hand somewhat of a mirror image as to what we would do in CLF.

Maybe Bak Moi Jiu was left handed or maybe he patterned his staff sets like that of northern spear as northern spear is done with the left hand in front. Is the dok bei kuen done with the left hand or the right. I saw your sifu do it once but I can't remember.

Do you hold your swords in the right hand or left?

jmd161
04-17-2007, 11:22 AM
I heard before the left side forward came about to confuse an opponent since most fought right side forward, kind of like the southpaw confuses some boxers. Not sure how true that is, since most in TCMA don't believe in exposing the left side since it exposes the heart also.



jeff:)

brothernumber9
04-17-2007, 11:31 AM
dok bei kuen is done with the left hand. My Sifu demonstrates it with the left.

Hakka Jai alluded to a set where the practitioner does half with the left, then half with the right. I've never seen that, but then again hungfut is rare, and even more rare are the lines that spawned from Bok Mo Jiu throughout his travels and teachings, some which may no longer even be called hungfut, but may have been internalized into bloodline "family" or village styles, so I will never be so bold to say if someone states something that I haven't learned, haven't seen, or heard, that it is not true.

Though it is somewhat trivial in the grand scope of things, weapons play is where I see the most difference in HF to other styles, that even in handsets may seem similar. Especially in gwan sets. This is my own observation and may certainly be disputed or even wrong, but from what I see, HF favors more double end techs than alot of other southern CMA, and more pokes. Dao sets, aside from double, are held in the right hand. I should qualify things I state by including the fact that I don't know very many sets at all, even though I have been a student for 16yrs. Just the same, I am confident in my opinions.

CLFNole
04-17-2007, 11:39 AM
I remember seeing a video of Hung Stewart doing a hung fut staff set and a similar feel to some of the CLF staff sets I practice. I think southern staff in general is quite similar when comparing long pole to long pole and eyebrow height pole to eyebrow height pole.

zn_bassman
04-18-2007, 12:45 AM
Hi guys, I'm a student of Hung Fut under Sifu Tai Yim. I live abroad now, so I'm not an active member of the school per se, but I wanted to mention a few things that come to recollection. Disclaimer: I hope I remember correctly, corrections/alternate versions are welcome.

The White Haired Devil was apparently tall, slender, and right-handed. There are stories of him fighting masters two-handed, and students using only his left. There is even a story about him once sitting down to face an opponent, then sitting on his hands, then even offering his face forward to tempt the opponent to strike. When the opponent moved to attack, WHD kicked him lightning-fast (from the sitting position) and broke some of his ribs.

He was reputed to be so fast, he could unleash and retract a sidekick without creating a shadow (or a clear one?) - this was known as his "no-shadow kick". He also knew how to dislocate his arm or leg on demand, which let him punch or kick very quickly with extended range. There's a story of him being attacked by several armed people while seated at a dinner table - he stood up, dislocated his leg, shot a sidekick beyond natural range across the table and struck an attacker hard. I think the others ran away.

When fighting with weapons (most of the time if not always with his staff), he would face masters with two hands holding the staff, and students with one hand holding the close end of the staff and the far end touching the ground.

As to the left-handedness of the system, it's in the sense of facing the opponent with the left side forward. If attacked, you often block with the left and strike with the right. If you start the engagement, you use the left to set up (or be blocked) and follow up with the right. There is a certain idea of being fast with the left and powerful with the right, but both sides are trained to handle all tasks.

Four Crippled Style: Sifu Yim appeared in an Inside Kung Fu magazine feature article on this in the '90s. Via Jane Hallender, he explained the history of the form and the content of each of the four sections, with photos of applications. I'll try to summarize this in the coming days when I get time.

Eight Drunken Angels: This is kept under close lock and key - there are probably less than 5 students in Sifu Yim's school who know anything about it besides the fact that it exists.

Animals: this has also been explained in a couple of magazine articles. Most are what you'd expect, with similarities to other systems. The eagle is pretty different, as it uses mostly the wingtips instead of the talons. The horse and elephant are very specific - false retreats/kicks and controlling/sweeping techniques respectively. Most of the system that has been seen uses the animals in various combinations - whether all, most, or a couple of them.

hakka jai
04-18-2007, 02:45 AM
hi folks,
As RE to stories regarding past masters it all depends who's telling it -their training & time span with that chosen master or in must cases these days its often passed on by hearsay. HF forms do start off blocking/striking 1st with the left,on my previous post i stated that 2 past hf masters had created 1 armed forms ,theses forms are not the creation of hung jiu sing(pak mao jiu)- his creations were say fung kune (4 ancestors/masters - power & strength form) with the help of his sifu pak mao tung & also small & big mad devil staff & 4 cripples .
The 8 drunken immortals- seen pieces of the form, not just 1 form like in other pai but actually 8 separate forms for each deity/immortal,to perform this form in it's entirety would take 30 mins from start to finish. 4 cripples form - shown bits of the blind section & seen the full blind section in HK about 10 yrs back ,hung sifu was performin it BTW not hung gum poi before anyone asks.
hung yiu cheung 7th generation cheung mun was famous for his performances of 8 drunken immortals & 4 cripples & by could he fight just like his father hung jiu sing as could hung kor san too.

cheers
:)

hakka jai
04-18-2007, 02:47 AM
hi folks,
Forgot to mention- the hung jiu sing was also famous for his dit dar & bonesetting skills too.

cheers:)

hungmanfay
04-18-2007, 08:57 PM
Hello hakka jai

Nice post, I have also heard of the left arm form that starts off using the left and then swiches to the right and even uses both arms. BTW I always thought that Dok Ba Kuen was created by an earlier generation than Hung Kor San. I am trying to get the info on this one. Also when you mention Sifu Hung who are you talking about?

Peace

Hung Fut 4ever!!!

The Xia
04-18-2007, 10:44 PM
A lot of good information.
Anyone willing to share any stories involving Hung Fut? :D

zn_bassman
04-19-2007, 01:37 AM
Just a quick post, don't have time go into this deeply at the moment.

As to the origins of certain specific forms, I don't think the roots are always so crystal clear. WHD learned and developed a tremendous amount over the years, and taught different versions of various forms to different people for all sorts of reasons. He taught his top-level knowledge only to his 3 sons (the elder 2 died heroically and tragically during his lifetime) - and maybe parts of it to others, although I've never heard this claimed specifically.

It's possible/likely that certain 7th generation masters (grandmaster Hung Yu Chung and maybe others) passed parts of this knowledge on to the wider HF public through contemporary versions of forms and other training methods. It might be that in some cases their names have become associated with original forms or versions actually developed by WHD or earlier that were never (or rarely) shown to the public until the 7th, 8th, and maybe even 9th generations. I can't imagine, for example, that WHD did not practice some version of the one-armed form. It might not have been exactly the same as this, that, or other version that he taught to, or was later modified by one or more later masters, but that's a common phenomenon.

I'm convinced that HYCh passed much/the essence/all of WHD's top knowledge (and his own) only to a very small number of closed door students. My theory is that we have bitesize tidbits and hints of these things in the open-door forms and training and that only the very few closed door students are exposed to the higher aspects.

In any case, as with most other KF styles, there is no single authority whose version of HF history is accepted by all. So we'll each believe our own sifus and try to fill in some blanks by hearing alternate versions... ;-)

zn_bassman
04-19-2007, 02:12 AM
hi folks,
Forgot to mention- the hung jiu sing was also famous for his dit dar & bonesetting skills too.

cheers:)

That's one of the ways he made his living (in addition to peddling wares and teaching KF). He also provided medicine and treatment to the poor and disabled for discounts/free, which is what led him into the circumstances that resulted in his creation of the crippled style.

His knowledge of the human body was very advanced - that's how he came up with many fighting methods and techniques, as well as being highly skilled on the healing side. It's impressive to make a drunken form, but who else turned palsey, blindness, hunchback, and lameness into combat advantage? :cool:

Steeeve
04-20-2007, 12:13 PM
Howdy

Here two other Hung fut weapons forms

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwvBtlPSM5Q&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_CMBOuLe4w&mode=related&search=

Steeve

Mulong
04-20-2007, 12:58 PM
The Gunshu (staff skill), remained me of the one that Hung Stewart, use to complete with.

poorboy
04-20-2007, 09:11 PM
john stewart (hung stewart) where are you? stop hiding, hung fut needs you!!!!!

Mulong
04-21-2007, 04:42 AM
In my opinion, John (Hung) Stewart, was the best chuantong nanquan (traditional southern boxing) of my generation; I still use him as a benchmark for today's competitors to emulate, because he possessed the lines, speed, energy, spirit, etc., which sadly has been lacking for years on the circuit.

ngokfei
04-21-2007, 12:47 PM
here's a nice overall article on Bak Mo Jiu and the Hung Fut Style. (it came from the Southern Kung Fu Forum

brothernumber9
04-23-2007, 10:22 AM
In my opinion, John (Hung) Stewart, was the best chuantong nanquan (traditional southern boxing) of my generation; I still use him as a benchmark for today's competitors to emulate, because he possessed the lines, speed, energy, spirit, etc., which sadly has been lacking for years on the circuit.

And as such, what do you come away with in terms of what you see now, compared to those of then like John (Hung) Stewart, Daniel Tomizaki, Shane Lacey, James Au, John Wai, Linh Tai, Jevon Holmes, Sean Marshall, Ronald Wheeler, etc.
?

Mulong
04-23-2007, 01:17 PM
I gather, you didn't understand my statement... I stated it was 'my opinion,' regarding Stewart in chuantong nanquan.

All the individuals you mention are peers; they all have their merits, but John, had a unique flow; if you will ask these individuals, they will state the same.

Daniel complete against John, but I don't recall him defeating him straight on.
Shane only completed with John for the 4 star grand championship in 1991.
James was one of the primer chuantong beiquan stylist.
John didn't complete in long and short; he only did short hand at the time, i.e., 1992. (However, he is one primer cailifoquan young Shifu at moment.)
Sean, like his classmate, i.e., James, was one of the primer chuantong beiquan stylist.
Javonne, was primer xin wushu stylist at the time.
Ron, ascended after John was no longer competing.

However, you left out James Ming Yee, Jeff Chow, Jason Wong, Pedro Cepero, Tracy Fleming, Andy Chung, Art D'agostino, Wen-Ching Wu, Harlan Lee, Peter Pena, Willie Pang etc.

These individuals set the standards from 1989 till 1994, by then most of them walked off the floor.

(I do apologize, for leaving out the others, who placed the first cobblestones in Chinese tournaments in the States.)

To clear my statement, the next generation, i.e., 1994-2000, never really got close to this group. You may say, this was the golden age. ( I was lucky to have partaken of their company of these great men; still have their best performers on video; does were the days.)

brothernumber9
04-24-2007, 05:13 AM
Thanks for the response, I completely share your sentiments. I was only a beginner when most of those guys were at the tail end of their competetive years, but remember them nonetheless, including almost all the other ones you named.

My own opinions on John (Hung) Stewart are almost the same as yours, except mine would be tainted by a little bias, since he is my si-hing, and I learnded a great deal from him.

lkfmdc
04-24-2007, 05:40 AM
Hung Stewart was the top guy in southern long/short.... Daniel Tomazaki and Jason Wong were always fighting for second and third

Sean was number one in northern... but honestly I didn't follow northern that much back then

ngokfei
04-24-2007, 06:52 AM
Mulong & Lkfmdc

hey what about me;)

I had to face "Ghettor Fu":eek:

LKFMDC - tie your laces;)

lkfmdc
04-24-2007, 08:18 AM
There are probably only three people left on the planet that can understand that last post ;)

brothernumber9
04-24-2007, 10:25 AM
Wow! I wasn't sure who remembered Ghetto Fu. Especially their teacher. He had the kung fu pants that said "Guetto" down one leg, "Ghetto" down the other, and "Fu" accross his ass, and he walkied around with one of those bamboo rice feild worker straw/bamboo hats on. My sihing Mike Sutton ripped him a new gut in '92, made him quit. Most people wouldn't even beleive that there was actually a school out there called "Ghetto Fu".


Ngokfei,
did you ever fight Mike sutton? There was this big white guy from a Pennsylvania eagle claw school that he fought, and even though Mike knocked him out, he said the guy was one of the best fighters he faced.

****, you guys are takin it back to NACMAF, aren't you?

lkfmdc
04-24-2007, 10:37 AM
Mike fought Ghetto Fu in San Da in 92

Eric and I were stuck doing the continuous point in 90... no san da back them... I got DQ'ed for So Choih'ing Eric in the head and Eric got the "pleasure" of fighting Ghetto Fu.... I'll leave it to Eric to tell that story :D

Mulong
04-24-2007, 12:14 PM
Brothernumber 9,

John, simply stood out; I have footage of most of the major events, i.e., 1989-1994, and I always use him as the benchmark, when it came to nanquan.

Those were the days... Hey, Eagle Claw Boy, let's not recall those crazy days of Ghetto Fu; they were wild times, i.e., 1993 NACMF.

(D*m*, we are getting old, we were young punks back then; Remember, Shifu Doc Fai Wong, remind us of other curfew?)

lkfmdc
04-24-2007, 01:43 PM
OFRD


"Old Fa rt Reporting For Duty!"

(can you believe that emiting gas is censored on here?)

Mulong
04-24-2007, 01:46 PM
IKFMDC,

Whoever thought we will be the next guard?

(Hey, like your Sanda ad's.)

lkfmdc
04-24-2007, 01:49 PM
(Hey, like your Sanda ad's.)

which ones?

Mulong
04-24-2007, 01:51 PM
AM News Paper ones, the other day was the kid's program...

lkfmdc
04-24-2007, 01:56 PM
oh, you're in NY (internet, can never tell, you could be in the jungle in a hut LOL)

belive it or not, I do those ads myself

trying to get a kids thing started, but it's hard in Manhattan

Mulong
04-24-2007, 02:04 PM
Indeed, you never know... Actually, great ads...

If I may ask, teaching the kids JJ or kf?

lkfmdc
04-24-2007, 02:06 PM
pretty basic San Da stuff; kicks, punches, some wrestling... nothing too complicated off course, a little more "traditional" but not really KF

Mulong
04-24-2007, 02:11 PM
Wish you the best... You are a bridge from past to the future; kudos!

lkfmdc
04-24-2007, 02:32 PM
Wish you the best... You are a bridge from past to the future; kudos!

That's interesting you put it that way, I just added a new article on my web page that sort of goes something like that....
(http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda/newbusiness.htm)

Mulong
04-24-2007, 02:38 PM
Great article; adding to it, you didn't request/submit the title, i.e., shifu, you simply earn it by your actions; in my opinion that's the way it suppose to be.

lkfmdc
04-24-2007, 02:48 PM
Thanks for all the kind words

I find what I am doing evolving and changing, an interesting path... with a lot of surprises along the way :D

Mulong
04-24-2007, 02:55 PM
Walking in the footsteps of giants; like our elders did eons ago, when they start new traditions, without actually being conscious; they simply want to improve their skills and show others that it is possible to enhance oneself via the understanding of physiology.

lkfmdc
04-24-2007, 04:13 PM
nah, just little baby steps, not even that......

cjurakpt
04-24-2007, 05:30 PM
Mulong & Lkfmdc
hey what about me;)
I had to face "Ghettor Fu":eek:
LKFMDC - tie your laces;)



There are probably only three people left on the planet that can understand that last post ;)


unfortunately, I happen to be one of them...:(

Tai-Lik
04-25-2007, 08:04 AM
Brothernumber 9

here is a hung fut picture/article i found for you. i believe your sifu Tai Yim is in this picture with his master.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzermavg/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/hungfutaiyim.jpg

lkfmdc
04-25-2007, 08:05 AM
unfortunately, I happen to be one of them...:(

Ha Haha hahahahahahahaha

:D :D :D :D

you so old......

Tai-Lik
04-25-2007, 08:33 AM
i know it's alittle off the main topic, but since it was brought up, here is something for all you old folks and the young ones who have heard about the golden years:)


http://mysite.verizon.net/vzermavg/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/nacmaf1.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzermavg/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/nacmaf3.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzermavg/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/nacmaf4.jpg

lkfmdc
04-25-2007, 08:41 AM
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzermavg/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/nacmaf1.jpg



OMFG..... that's Chan Tai San, me, Lama Pai Sifu and CJurakPT!!!!!!!!!!

brothernumber9
04-25-2007, 09:27 AM
Sifu Johnson,

Awesome find, thank you. THe results page from the tourny takes me back too. Even has my name in it there.

I had so much fun at the NACMAF tournaments. You could walk around harborplace at night and just see kung fu people everywhere. The atmosphere for those weekends was unique.

lkfmdc
04-25-2007, 11:23 AM
I had so much fun at the NACMAF tournaments. You could walk around harborplace at night and just see kung fu people everywhere. The atmosphere for those weekends was unique.

A Golden Age for TCMA.... I really miss those days....

Mulong
04-25-2007, 01:47 PM
What about 1994 Orlando, i.e., WKF?

lkfmdc
04-25-2007, 01:56 PM
What about 1994 Orlando, i.e., WKF?

I always like NACMAF better, Jeff is a great guy, but there were a few "bugs" in that event :D

Mulong
04-25-2007, 01:58 PM
Ask ngokfei, about the pool party; never will be topped!

lkfmdc
04-25-2007, 02:01 PM
Oh, I know about THAT :eek:

Some of us know about a certain phone call to an escort service as well :D (LamaPaiSifu or CJurak around?)

But there were a few things that aggravated me about the event... I always felt more at home at NACMAF.....

Mulong
04-25-2007, 02:06 PM
NACMAF, had that Southern touch; also, Baltimore is an ideal city for tournaments.

lkfmdc
04-25-2007, 02:27 PM
NACMAF, had that Southern touch;

Southern touch, yup, that is a large part of what I am getting at

Lama Pai Sifu
04-25-2007, 05:14 PM
Hey, that was NACMAF 1,3,4....what about #2? Can you post that one as well???

Peace

cjurakpt
04-26-2007, 09:29 AM
i know it's alittle off the main topic, but since it was brought up, here is something for all you old folks and the young ones who have heard about the golden years:)
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzermavg/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/nacmaf1.jpg
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzermavg/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/nacmaf3.jpg
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzermavg/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/nacmaf4.jpg
ah yes - fond memories of THAT one: the multiple mispellings of my last name (Jurnk & Jurrack respectively), and an ignominiously "won" 2nd place in Intermediate Forms: everything was looking good from the sidelines, until Dave noticed the repetition of a move in the form I was doing that only was supposed to occur only once: after that, it was anybody's guess what was happening...


A Golden Age for TCMA.... I really miss those days....
road trips in the van with me, CTS, Dave, Mike, Laurette, Phil, Alf, Ferrari and the rest of the 440 Crew; practicing the night before in Brian's backyard in 110 deg. with 110% humidity; Lisa pummling the little blond girl; dinner afterwards in a Chinese restaurant the middle of nowhere where the cook knew sifu - all priceless...


Oh, I know about THAT :eek:
Some of us know about a certain phone call to an escort service as well :D (LamaPaiSifu or CJurak around?)
there were so many of those I lost track (G.K. used to make a bee-line for the local yellow pages upon entering a hotel room...)


I always felt more at home at NACMAF.....
it was the most amazing tourney: after years of attending crappy "open style" tournaments, either as a TKD of TCMA practitioner, it was like coming home to your own - no need to explain what you did, to ask judges to move tables back so you had space to do your form, to meet other people that actually respected your style; it was big, but not too big - always had a "family" feel to it;

lkfmdc
04-26-2007, 02:51 PM
ah yes - fond memories of THAT one: the multiple mispellings of my last name (Jurnk & Jurrack respectively)



you know perfectly well that when you filled out your application you put all thse mis-spellings on there :D

Lama Pai Sifu
04-26-2007, 08:44 PM
Can someone find the 1993 results?

Chris beat Doc Fei Wongs son in the finals, there was a weapons sparring division and my students took home over 20 trophies. Can anyone find those results??

Tai-Lik
04-26-2007, 09:53 PM
Hey, that was NACMAF 1,3,4....what about #2? Can you post that one as well???

Peace

these are just numbers of pages from the same 1992 article.

i don't think the magazines covered the other one. A friend mentioned today that 1992 was the big one. i'll check with Deric Mims on a 1993 article because if there was one and posted results, he'll have them.

lkfmdc
04-27-2007, 11:59 AM
91 must have been the year Lama Pai Sifu, Ngok Fei and I fought in the division with Ghetto Fu then?

brothernumber9
04-27-2007, 12:12 PM
If you are referring to the teacher of Ghetto Fu, I'd have to think it was '91, since in '92 he fought san shou.

He was a big brother.

secretgecko
04-27-2007, 01:42 PM
wow - that is a blast from the past!

LOL - I didn't know that many people even took notice of that goofball. He used to walk around DC with a kung fu uniform and a rice harvesting hat seven days a week! He was worse than that kid Taimak in the movie The Last Dragon.

I remember seeing this guy at tournaments and around washington, dc in the late eighties, early nineties and he was pathetic.

Did someone from Tai Yim's school really kick his ass in public? Priceless.

I remember going to tournaments in that time period also and it is true - if John Stewart was competing in a division, first place was sewn up. I never saw any of the numerous guys mentioned in a previous post ever take first place from John Stewart.

There were usually four or five other guys from Hung Fut including Linh Tai, Sheldon Lee, Tony Sim, Gerry Klein - and if they were all in a division everyone else could just resolve themselves to the fact that the division was going to be a Tai Yim school clean sweep.

There were some awesome chicks from Hung Fut at that time including two sisters with the last name Lee - I think - and a girl named Tracey something.

They always topped out the women's division for southern style.

Golden Years!

Lama Pai Sifu
04-27-2007, 05:09 PM
I think Ghetto Fu was originally 1990, at least that's when I think I fought him. I even had it on tape for awhile, but it's MIA now. Too bad, cool fight with some good footage. :(

lkfmdc
04-28-2007, 02:42 PM
I think Ghetto Fu was originally 1990, at least that's when I think I fought him. I even had it on tape for awhile, but it's MIA now. Too bad, cool fight with some good footage. :(

That was the same year.... I remember you caught his kick with Kahp Choih and threw him.... I would have fought him in the finals but I got DQ'ed vs Eric... so Eric had all the "fun" :eek:

CLFNole
04-28-2007, 03:00 PM
Was his school actually called "Ghetto Fu" or was that what he called his style? Did he actually have a sifu? I have seen some real interesting characters over the years but never this one. Sounds like someone straight out of a movie.

ngokfei
04-28-2007, 03:24 PM
Dave I too wish you had beaten me so that you could have fought that guy;)

I only have photos of the "event".

One moment we fell into the table
2nd he elbowed me (don't recall:confused: )
but ended up being dropped on my neck, man did that hurt for aloong time.

Funny thing is that the 1st year I fought I got disqualified for catching and tripping. I was new to the point scene. Then the next year I trained with Jonas Nunez in order to do better.

All I remember is being rolled out of the tournament on a stretcher and it was written up as Winner of the Heavy weight division, Eric the "Hardway" Hargrove:eek:

Got the trophy back to the school then kwando'ed it:D

San shou should have been my thing.

And that pool thing was awsom. Didn't expect the enormous turnout. And as far as I know there are NOOO photos to prove it ever happened!!! Stillcouldn't find that shoe though.

And for the record I did not Push Amy into the pool. And then there was the image of her blowdrying her money on the bed!!!

Lama Pai Sifu
04-28-2007, 05:50 PM
Ghetto Fu won our match, I was disqualified for head contact. Two warnings, then disqualified. It's funny, it was supposed to be continuous contact that year, with some head contact, but depending on which ring you were in, some judges ran it like a straight up Karate point fight, which some judges were letting guys really duke it out.

cjurakpt
04-28-2007, 06:13 PM
I think Ghetto Fu was originally 1990, at least that's when I think I fought him. I even had it on tape for awhile, but it's MIA now. Too bad, cool fight with some good footage. :(

yeah, it was 1990, the first time we went to NACMAF; you did Si Mei Gwun in weapons, I don't remember what for empty-hand; I competed with Hak Fu Tao Sam (remember that form?) and the Yaht Louh Dahn Douh; my sparring wasn't noteworthy; however, my ex, Lisa, she steamrolled over this girl 1/2 her weight: a hook to the gut and the gal went down, hard; CTS was laughing his a$$ off about that for like 6 months...that year we had a pretty small group, no uniforms, just a bunch of schmoes from NYC

Lama Pai Sifu
04-28-2007, 07:24 PM
Yeah, the first time, black pants and black t-shirts, my addias Sambas. :) The second time was the red twin-style shirt, so I guess that was '91 with Ghetto Fu.

Fun times, eh?

And Lisa beat the girl, but that's not what CTS was laughing about, it's that Lisa hit here in the belly and made her cry. Sifu thought THAT was funny. Go figure...

zn_bassman
04-28-2007, 08:30 PM
Brothernumber 9

here is a hung fut picture/article i found for you. i believe your sifu Tai Yim is in this picture with his master.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzermavg/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/hungfutaiyim.jpg


Here's a short summary of the article, done by a native speaker of Chinese on another forum:

> The person in the centre is Hung Yiu Chung
>
> The other three are Hung Oi Kwan (daughter of Hung Yiu Chung), Yim
> Shu Sin and Yim Tai Loi. I have transliterated their names, as I
> don¡¦t know the proper spellings.
>
> In brief, the article talks of the passing down of the martial art
> from generation to generation, and the successor(s) to the present
> (at the time) generation master Hung Yiu Chung, being the abovesaid
> three persons, who teach and assist Hung Yiu Chung at the teaching
> place.
>
> There is also a bit of history with mention of Hung Hei Kwoon of
> the Shaolin temple, Pak Mo Chiu as well as about having good morals
> in addition to being proficient in martial arts.


And here's something I added:
Yim Shu Sin would be Yim Tai's older brother, who was a senior 8th
generation practitioner until a motorcycle accident ended his career.
He became a successful full contact trainer after that. He spent some
time in the US back in my day, was a frequent presence at his brother's school,
and was given status by the early inter-style KF federations set up
by Masters Yim Tai, Anthony Goh, Ken Fish, Mike Barry, Deric Mimms,
John Johns, Norman Smith, and others. In the end, he decided to stay
in HK.

hungmanfay
04-29-2007, 09:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI_t3pOEDxo
>
> > Sifu Chung Kang Bor is performing this staff form.
> > Sifu Chung Kang Bor is an 8th Generation – (Yung Yung
> > Tong) Hung Fut Pai practitioner. His linage comes from
> > Grandmaster Tam Shek, a highly regarded student of
> > Si Jo Bak Mo Jiu. One of Sifu Chung Kang Bor
> > Students, Sifu Yeung Kai emigrated to the United
> > States in 1970. Sifu Yeung Kai (1947-2006) was the
> > first to bring Hung Fut Pai to America. Over his
> > lifetime he had several schools located in the New
> > York City's Chinatown and taught hundreds of people
> > Hung Fut Pai. The New York Hung Fut Pai Association,
> > www.hungfutpai.com , have their roots from this line
> > of Hung Fut Pai. They also have continued Hung Fut Pai
> > from Grandmaster Hung Kum Pui located in Hong Kong and
> > are now the overseas contact for that branch of Hung
> > Fut Pai. www.hungfutpai.net They are also members of
> > the International Hung Fut Pai Chinese Kung Fu
> > Association. www.hungfutpai.org . As you can see from
> > this video, the different branches of Hung Fut Pai do
> > their forms a bit different. However, the Hung Fut
> > essence is the same. After all, Si Jo Bak Mo Jiu
> > is the father to us all.
>
> Peace
>
> Hung Fut 4ever!!!

ahone888
04-30-2007, 08:54 AM
started a new hung fut forum

http://hungfut.s4.bizhat.com

zn_bassman
04-30-2007, 09:43 AM
For those who don't know - and not to step on anybody's toes - there are 2 existing Hung Fut Yahoo Groups, one with about 60 members and the other with about 100. They're accessible by going to Yahoo -> Groups and searching for "Hung Fut". One is run by a student of Sifu Raymond Man of Scotland, the other is run by a member of the Sifu Yeung Kai (New York) - Sifu Hung Kam Pui (HK) branch of HF. Both forums are several years old, and are frequented by HF practitioners from the US, Canada, Scotland, the Philippines, Australia, Hong Kong, and other places.

frumpybunny
04-30-2007, 06:37 PM
Thanks for the response, I completely share your sentiments. I was only a beginner when most of those guys were at the tail end of their competetive years, but remember them nonetheless, including almost all the other ones you named.

My own opinions on John (Hung) Stewart are almost the same as yours, except mine would be tainted by a little bias, since he is my si-hing, and I learnded a great deal from him.

Hung Stewart! Awesome talent! Awesome times! Anyone know if he's still practicing or teaching or what he's been up to? Where can I find some videos of him competing or performing?

The Xia
04-30-2007, 09:38 PM
started a new hung fut forum

http://hungfut.s4.bizhat.com
Not much activity there. But it's still early.
But how's about we talk Hung Fut here for now?
I'll use a topic from the new forum. What's your favorite Hung Fut Kuen?

secretgecko
05-01-2007, 06:24 AM
According to the Hong Kong website and the history and origin of Hung Fut the following appears to be the core curriculum of the style:

5 Animal Form
Iron Wire Form
The Cross Fist (Sup Gee Kuen)
(The original forms synthesized in the shaolin temple from Hung Gar)

Transfer Incense Pile Palm Gung (Chi Gung)
Hung Fist - Buddha Palm
These two forms created by the 2nd generation grand master

The Drunken Eight Immortals - created by the third generation grand master

14 Elbow form - created by the fourth generation grand master

Immitate the four grand masters fist - created by the fifth grand master

The four grand crippled fist - created by the sixth grand master

Crazy Devil Staff - created by the fifth and sixth grand masters together

Many "parent forms" - created by the seventh grand master

Bok Mo Kuen

and I'm sure many other forms which incorporate animal styles and weapons forms.

Tai-Lik
05-01-2007, 09:10 AM
Hung Yu Chung:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzermavg/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/hungyuchung.jpg

brothernumber9
05-01-2007, 10:19 AM
Another gem

Sifu Johnson, Thank you.

I envy your collection of print artifacts.

secretgecko
05-01-2007, 01:35 PM
http://www.swt.org/events/dc0906/kungfu/index.html

zn_bassman
05-02-2007, 03:30 AM
Hung Yu Chung:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzermavg/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/hungyuchung.jpg

Here's a summary translation I got from someone in HK:

> It's only an advertising on the newspaper.At that time he is 52 years old
> and had been learned from grandmaster Pak [Mo Jiu] for 14 years.He started to teach
> in new territories Hong Kong. Afterwards he go into China when Japanese army
> is coming. In 1959 at the end of the War, he come back to Hong Kong again
> and open his own school.

The Xia
05-21-2007, 09:56 PM
ttt.........

secretgecko
05-30-2007, 06:38 AM
Hung Fut Videos


Just found these vids:

One Armed Form

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js1gNJnERKc

South Shaolin Staff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWmNfHs_iWg

hakka jai
05-31-2007, 02:54 AM
nothing like the ones i know- chopsuey style from the local chinese takeaway. :)

brothernumber9
05-31-2007, 04:55 AM
what does that mean?

hakka jai
05-31-2007, 06:24 AM
it means mishmash - made up ,it's not done in the correct sequence/roads it looks like a mixture of hung kor san's version & hung yu cheung's yim yeurng sau.:confused:

brothernumber9
05-31-2007, 07:57 AM
Are you referring to just the first video, or both?

gabe
05-31-2007, 08:22 AM
it means mishmash - made up ,it's not done in the correct sequence/roads it looks like a mixture of hung kor san's version & hung yu cheung's yim yeurng sau.:confused:

Even if it isnt the right sequence, is it still hung fut? Is it "made up" of hung fut components?

Lama Pai Sifu
05-31-2007, 06:01 PM
Even if it isnt the right sequence, is it still hung fut? Is it "made up" of hung fut components?

Just out of curiousity, and this is not a Hung Fut or a style issue, but who exactly is it that can say a form is not in the RIGHT sequence? I assume everyone realizes that forms change from generation to generation - sequences, content, etc. This is why we have so many styles today.

I believe it is only the recent generation(s) that belive that froms are static and should not evolve. From my understandings, prior to the last generation or so, ALL FORMS CHANGED. They incorporated other styles into each other, i.e., Hung Ga, Choy Lay Fut, Jow Ga, and yes, even Hung Fut.

But as far as the forms in question on this forum - are they Hung Fut techniques? Are they in a different order than you learned them? If so, then who gives a crap? Sequences of forms are not what is important, it's execution and understanding of techniques, no?

I'm not trying to be a d1ck here, just giving my opinion. I'm not attacking anyone so don't get your sash in a ruffel...

hakka jai
06-01-2007, 02:42 AM
Hi there,
the components are there but fact of the matter remains that them(HGP & his sons) posting the form on youtube,would lead you to believe that that is the correct form that is shown, all i want to make clear that it isnt & the HF elders in HK know this too,in the past 20 yrs HGP hasn't promoted/praticed HF ,it is only in the last few yrs he has gotten on the bandwagon as sifus outside HK are doing a better job than him & taking their students over to HK too ,to show their standard of kungfu. All i say to guys who go to HK & look HGP out ,DONT listen to his "SPIN",take what you like from this posting, it's the TRUTH.

gabe
06-01-2007, 05:01 AM
Just out of curiousity, and this is not a Hung Fut or a style issue, but who exactly is it that can say a form is not in the RIGHT sequence? I assume everyone realizes that forms change from generation to generation - sequences, content, etc. This is why we have so many styles today.

I believe it is only the recent generation(s) that belive that froms are static and should not evolve. From my understandings, prior to the last generation or so, ALL FORMS CHANGED. They incorporated other styles into each other, i.e., Hung Ga, Choy Lay Fut, Jow Ga, and yes, even Hung Fut.

But as far as the forms in question on this forum - are they Hung Fut techniques? Are they in a different order than you learned them? If so, then who gives a crap? Sequences of forms are not what is important, it's execution and understanding of techniques, no?

I'm not trying to be a d1ck here, just giving my opinion. I'm not attacking anyone so don't get your sash in a ruffel...


That's my point. You know that, right?

gabe
06-01-2007, 05:07 AM
Hi there,
the components are there but fact of the matter remains that them(HGP & his sons) posting the form on youtube,would lead you to believe that that is the correct form that is shown, all i want to make clear that it isnt & the HF elders in HK know this too,in the past 20 yrs HGP hasn't promoted/praticed HF ,it is only in the last few yrs he has gotten on the bandwagon as sifus outside HK are doing a better job than him & taking their students over to HK too ,to show their standard of kungfu. All i say to guys who go to HK & look HGP out ,DONT listen to his "SPIN",take what you like from this posting, it's the TRUTH.

I'm not a hung fut guy, but it seems your post is based on politics, not substance. It's the substance of the form, not the sequence, that matters. Half the traditional sifu's I know would never do the so-called complete or correct sequence in public anyway. I am more interested to hear what your opinion is on the substance or the components of his hung fut play, not the politics. Shame on you if you are actually part of the HF pai.

ahone888
06-01-2007, 08:29 AM
http://hungfut.s4.bizhat.com/

secretgecko
06-01-2007, 03:30 PM
I am not a hung fut guy either but I have have to agree with a previous post that forms must maintain some integrity from generation to generation.

Hung Gar has many forms that regardless of where you go in the world you will see almost identical forms which have maintained their integrity for several generations.

Fu Hok Seurn Ying Kuen looks pretty much the same wherever you go.

This is the same for many of the Hung Gar forms.

I think most would agree that it is not only the individual techniques within a road or form but the precise order that gives practitioners around the globe something in common to cling to.

If every Hung Gar school had such a vast difference in their forms from school to school, how could you call them related?

CLFNole
06-01-2007, 05:54 PM
The video of Hung Stewart doing the staff is from a tournament and many people alter sets for tournaments. There is nothing wrong with doing that as long as the sets are passed along to the students the correct way. Furthermore sets always are a bit different from sifu to sifu and student to student.

Lama Pai Sifu
06-02-2007, 07:20 AM
Quite honestly though - what is more imporant? Correct moves, strategies, principles and applications -- or specific secquences passes on through the last two or three generations? Really..

Plus, as I said before, the preservation of exact sequences is a TODAY thing. It wasn't a part of Kung-Fu 50-100 years ago. Kung-Fu is supposed to be a work in progress, that is EXACTLY why we have so many styles.

For some reason, TODAY, people think that the exact sequences are the same and we must bind together to find uniformity in our Kung-Fu.

LISTEN TO ME NOW: That was NEVER what Kung-Fu was about. You learned stuff from your teacher, then you practiced and learned some other stuff from another teacher - then - made it yours. You made your contribution to the current generation. THAT IS WHAT THE TEACHERS OF ALL OTHER GENERATIONS HAVE DONE (except the last few).

Please talk about Wong Fei-Hung's forms, the four Pillars of Hung Ga. Well, he didn't create them all, but he DID create some. I wonder if we applied the same logic to his style and told him that he was doing a mishmosh - would he have listened?

Every style we have today was at one time a 'mishmosh', don't you agree? That is why we cannot ever find a form in it's entirety that was passed down for 100-200 years. BECAUSE, they didn't exist in that manner back then.

Sidebar - Hung Fut is a mismosh! How can you be so hipocritical?? It's got elements of Hung Kuyhn and Hung Ga and Fut Ga. How can you say that the form posted was Jaap Ga?


Stop living this Kung-Fu fantasy, that you are practicing exact sequences that are 300 years old. You are not. And who would care if you did? Does that make you better than the other Hung Fut practitioners out there? You are however, practicing techniques, theories and concepts that may be even much older than that.

And on another note - why do you think the Chinese kept changing stuff/forms/sequences/the incorporation of other styles???? Because they were improving and evolving....and that my friends is EXACTLY WHAT TRADITIONAL KUNG-FU IS - Evolution!!!! It's not preservations....it's PROGRESS!

Agree if you will, Agrue if you feel you must. I have nothing more to debate on this. Going to work now...hopefully to figure out a better way of teaching something to my students, so they can improve. :)

jmd161
06-02-2007, 10:09 AM
why do you think the Chinese kept changing stuff/forms/sequences/the incorporation of other styles???? Because they were improving and evolving....and that my friends is EXACTLY WHAT TRADITIONAL KUNG-FU IS - Evolution!!!! It's not preservations....it's PROGRESS!




Agreed!


It is today's generations that are making TCMA stagnant. By today's generations I mean the last 50+ yrs or so. There is no more interaction, no more touching of hands, and exchanging of info. The MMA formula is not new CMA did what they are doing for hundreds of yrs. If we don't get back to the exchanging and interaction, we are going to continue to fall behind.


jeff:)

cjurakpt
06-02-2007, 11:02 AM
TRADITIONAL KUNG-FU IS - Evolution!!!! It's not preservations....it's PROGRESS!

geez Mike, the next thing you know, you'll be having someone from, I don't know, BJJ or MMA teaching seminars at your school! ;) - you'll never get into Kung Fu Heaven that way!!!

BTW, great sem yesterday - Carmine is a lot of fun and a pleasure to learn from

nospam
06-02-2007, 02:52 PM
Sifu Michael Parrella

"LISTEN TO ME NOW: That was NEVER what Kung-Fu was about. You learned stuff from your teacher, then you practiced....made it yours. You made your contribution to the current generation. THAT IS WHAT THE TEACHERS OF ALL OTHER GENERATIONS HAVE DONE (except the last few)."

Precisely. As far as I am concerned, once a style is mastered and the student recognized, that person is the style. I could make all new patterns if I thought it was needed to better teach the style. I could teach the style without patterns, although they are a great teaching tool. They are one way in which we pass the knowledge down to the next generation and one way in which that generation can maintain skill. And as we all realise there is never only ONE WAY.

In my style, each teacher has modified or added or created new patterns. The reason being, they thought it would better serve in teaching the spirit of the style.

Some people hold credibility through certain patterns known - what's with that!? My gung fu isn't defined by any one pattern I may or may not have been taught. Patterns are tools. Tools do not necessitate style although they can be unique to any given style. Patterns will keep me sharp if I have no one else to practise with. Patterns will pass down movements and techniques that show application. It is 'written' history of techniques and possible applications.

We are the style Today. If you have been recognized by your teacher, then the style is yours to honor, teach as best you can, and ensure it continues to live.

nospam
:cool:

secretgecko
06-03-2007, 11:58 AM
I guess I am not saying that forms and styles must evolve and change from generation to generation. One would fully expect that within a particular style that techniques would evolve and change with new information, knowledge and technology. I am sure that in certain styles forms are blended and synthesized from other styles, techniques , etc.

Likewise, certain things become obsolete. Traditional weapons have no modern application but they remain as part of the tradition martial arts for their intrinsic value.

The five main southern shaolin styles of hung, choy, li, mok, and fut have been synthesized in to many various styles including choy li fut, hung fut and others.

Certain sects of hung gar have incorporated pek kwa broadsword and the crushing step (bong bo) form of praying mantis.

There is obviously nothing wrong with evolving, changing, whatever.

The point I was trying to make was that one might expect that within a particular branch or school that there would be some consistency and accuracy of forms.

I guess what started this debate was the comments regarding the one armed form that was posted on youtube. (Which has since been taken down) There seemed to be some debate as to whether it was authentic because it perhaps did not look similar to a from practiced by another branch school.

One must first take into consideration that some branches may drastically alter forms for public demonstrations so as not to divulge closely guarded techniques. Video is too easily shared. With the advent of youtube forms, techniques and information are flashed around the globe.

However, It would seem to me that if, in fact, practitioners of this particular style (hung fut) were to have a international festival, for example, that the one armed form from one school would be very similar if not identical to the form from a school half way around the world. They have, after all, named forms such as the four grand master's form - which one might expect to also look the same from school to school regardless of whether they are in the US, HK, or Down Under.

If you go to hung gar schools around the world you will find that whether it is Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen, Gung Gee Fook Fu, or Teet Sin Kuen - the forms will be nearly identical from school to school.

These traditional forms are the genesis of the style and have remained somewhat standardized for the sake of passing on, from generation to generation, the core techniques and principles of the style. I would only guess that this is true for other styles as well.

It really has nothing do do with new and evolving aspects of a style but rather how the traditional information is kept pure.

This is just my humble opinion and perhaps I am completely wrong in this assumption. Please correct me if I am way off base.

Yen-Wang-Yeh
06-03-2007, 01:18 PM
You are not wrong. You are held of a traditional belief. If that tradition is to pass forms down as they were, or as close to as possible then that is how your style teaches its system. Some styles remain unchanged for sake of honoring the founder and/or system, or as a proven method of teaching. Other styles feel that once a system is mastered, these masters will improve on what they learned, refine what they learned, continue to develop what they learned, make it their own. Some believe the true masters of a system create something new from what they are given so that their system never stagnates, never weakens, always moving for they understand there is no end.

What is the definition of tradition - is it best described as a continuing pattern of culture, beliefs, or practices? Did not many of these true masters, themselves, learn multiple styles, synthesize same, and made them uniquely their own? What was once tradition is born again new: the new then becomes tradition. Did true masters of systems believe it was complete and that they new all?

Neither way is necessarily wrong or better. Gung fu is oft a belief in teacher, of self, and in the way of the system. Not every generation generates Saints, so to speak. The Way is always there and will always be there to be discovered new again. To become traditional again.

Yen-Wang-Yeh

Lama Pai Sifu
06-04-2007, 04:43 AM
It really has nothing do do with new and evolving aspects of a style but rather how the traditional information is kept pure.


What is pure? What exactly does that mean?

I don't think anyone here can debate the fact that 'forms' or exact patterns or sequences have always changed. It's just the last generation or so that feels they SHOULDN'T.

That is NOT the spirit of tradition in TCMA. The one thing that has always been constant (until recently) is that CMA is never stagnant.

I was learning Bok Mei from my Sifu one day, and Seung Fung Teui was in the form. I was like "what the hell is Jumping Inside Crescent Kick doing in a style that is such close range?" I asked my teacher, who answered either metaphorically or literally, "Bok Mei got hit with it one day, and decided it was a good technique to put into his style." Who knows weather or not it's true, but it does help to illustrate my point; CMA always changes.

The fact that it hasn't changed in the last 50 years or so, is part of the testimant why it is the most scarcely practiced and taught martial art around the globe.

CMA people: Wake up and realize that your exact patterns have very little to do with how good your Kung-Fu is. If you switched up all your patterns from front to back, it wouldn't make you worse - heck, it might even make you better.

If you taught those 'untraditional' patterns to new students, guess what would happen? The same exact thing that would have happened it you taught them the other way; they would either get good or not. Doesn't matter what the pattern is, but that is always the result, isn't it.

If CMA people actually started to embrace the true traditions of TCMA, they would learn BJJ or Sambo or anything else that their style lacked; instead of condeming it. They would absorb it into their style (LIKE TCMA ALWAYS DID BEFORE) and make their style better. That is how it had always been done until today/recently.

TCMA people, wake up and smell the rear naked choke. The rest of the MA world is evolving and they are laughing at us (as a whole). We have such wonderful techniques that I feel are so much more sophisticated that Jab, Cross, Clinch, Knee. But we are so hung up on 'what is from what style' and so resistant to other training methods, that our fate is almost surely sealed.

Take what you will from this.

secretgecko
06-04-2007, 03:20 PM
What is pure? What exactly does that mean?

Pure means that a particular style or form remains basically unchanged, unaltered and unadaulterated. It remains free from anything that is extraneous. Free from inappropriate admixtures or elements. It remains clear and true without any discordant quality. Being what it is and nothing else. Ceremonially or ritually clean.


I don't think anyone here can debate the fact that 'forms' or exact patterns or sequences have always changed. It's just the last generation or so that feels they SHOULDN'T.

That being said I would tend to agree wholeheartedly with you. Forms and patterns and roads may in fact change. But I think you would also agree with my earlier post in which the point I was trying to make is that there are some core elements or forms from a particular style such as Hung Gar's Teet Sin Kuen which have remained in their unaltered and pure form for generations - as it probably should.


That is NOT the spirit of tradition in TCMA. The one thing that has always been constant (until recently) is that CMA is never stagnant...

...CMA people: Wake up and realize that your exact patterns have very little to do with how good your Kung-Fu is.

Again, I would agree with you that your skill in patterns may have very little to do with how good your kung fu is - for example - there may be a student in a particular school who has perfect routines but because he has no guts or courage could not fight his way out of a paper bag.


If CMA people actually started to embrace the true traditions of TCMA, they would learn BJJ or Sambo or anything else that their style lacked; instead of condeming it. They would absorb it into their style (LIKE TCMA ALWAYS DID BEFORE) and make their style better. That is how it had always been done until today/recently.

TCMA people, wake up and smell the rear naked choke. The rest of the MA world is evolving and they are laughing at us (as a whole). We have such wonderful techniques that I feel are so much more sophisticated that Jab, Cross, Clinch, Knee. But we are so hung up on 'what is from what style' and so resistant to other training methods, that our fate is almost surely sealed...

Again, I am not disagreeing with you. If one's goal is to become the best fighter they can be one must study many different styles. If you were to go up against a well rounded and highly trained MMA fighter such as in the popular Ultimate Fighter Cage fights than you would also need to be well rounded in your skill of stand-up, kick boxing, take-downs, shoot, wrestling and jiujutsu otherwise you would stand little chance.

So, if your goal is to become an Ultimate Fighter than your point is very well taken.

Fortunately or unfortunately - depending on your politics and goals - some schools of martial arts have remained pure and will therfore possibly - as you say - become stagnant. But isn't it this purity part of the traditions that some particular styles are trying to hold onto by keeping forms and patterns relatively consistent? Isn't this a good thing?

Other schools - Modern WuShu in particular - have become nothing more than "rhythmic gymnastics" and have lost all or nearly all of their martial quality. Isn't that a bad thing?

I guess it really comes down to what the goals are of the individual person studying the martial art. Different people come to a martial arts school for different reasons -whether it is to get some exercise, live out some kung fu movie fantasy, or become a ultimate fighter. Ulfortunately - some schools try to be all things to all people - but that its an entirely different topic that I have wondered off into - haven't I?

Keep up the livelly and friendly debate - your comments are greatly appreciated!

secretgecko
06-06-2007, 05:48 AM
Here is a verse that was posted on another Hung Fut thread.

Anybody want to take a stab at it?

Kyuhn wai jow, gwan wai si, sun dao wai fu mo.
Fist is seed, staff (pole) is teacher,
sun and moon blades are mother and father.

Can anybody tell me what it means?

Any other verses that anyone would like to share?

TenTigers
06-06-2007, 06:12 AM
a few thoughts:
1-Wong Fei-Hung created modern day Hung-Ga by combining methods of Hung Kuen with Hop-Ga, and reformatting the sets. Therefore, it would be in Hung tradition to do the same. No, I am not advocating every Hung player play jigsaw puzzle with their sets and change them, but "Gwok Si,Gwok Faht" each Sifu has his own method. Each teacher will emphasize different aspects and perhaps modify the way it is played. In SPM, once you learn the forms, they are never played the same way twice, as each time, it is a spontaneous expression of the self through the form. If you are doing it the same each and every time, you are not doing SPM.
2-as far as Tiet Sien Kuen, I have seen many variations on this set. Check out youtube.com. This is only two generations from LSW, where most of these versions came from. I have seen others,especially some TF variations that are extremely different, yet still Tiet Sien Kuen. Concepts,core techniques, theories-sum-faht remains the same.
3-Ok, I'll take a stab at it-
Fist is seed-sum-faht-core concepts,techniques. This makes up what your system IS.
Staff is Teacher-the staff teaches power generation,and develops structural alignment and rooting, which makes it possible. This is then applied to the seed. Without it, you have no Gung-Fu.
Not sure what Sun and Moon Blades are, but from what I have seen of other systems, sometimes specific weapon sets actually contain specific techniques-when practiced with empty hands, that are not taught openly, and are not seen in the other sets. The "Empty Jong" is but one example. Without these "secrets," the system although still effective, is not being played at its highest level. These "secrets" breathe life into the system and give birth to the ability to express oneself and grow through the system.
-um, or I smoked way too much weed as a teenager.

gabe
06-06-2007, 07:59 AM
[QUOTE=TenTigers;768186]a few thoughts:
1-Wong Fei-Hung created modern day Hung-Ga by combining methods of Hung Kuen with Hop-Ga, and reformatting the sets. Therefore, it would be in Hung tradition to do the same. No, I am not advocating every Hung player play jigsaw puzzle with their sets and change them, but "Gwok Si,Gwok Faht" each Sifu has his own method. Each teacher will emphasize different aspects and perhaps modify the way it is played. In SPM, once you learn the forms, they are never played the same way twice, as each time, it is a spontaneous expression of the self through the form. If you are doing it the same each and every time, you are not doing SPM."


If people understood this, especially the SPM folks, there would be so much less politics. Differences in forms are usually the basis of mudslinging. That's low level understanding in my opinion.

cjurakpt
06-06-2007, 08:14 AM
from the perspective of fighting, it really doesn't matter what order you put the forms in, since it has been proven without a shadow of a doubt that you can be an excellet fighter and have never practiced a form in your life;

if to consider the rationale for forms, there are several likely possibilities: facilitating teaching large numbers of people simultaneously; having something to practice when you were by yourself; passing on the various techniques in "dictionary" or "encyclopedia" manner; identifying the "flavor" of your style / performance aspect; while these can all be peripherally related to fighting, they are not the primary means by which fighting skill is developed

the only instance in my experience where the order of the form can be important, is if you are trying to do something physiologically related: for example, many qigong "forms" follow a specific methodology (at least according to TCM principles, which you may or may not buy in the first place); it seems that sanchin or tit sin are two examples these types of forms, that if you do it in the "wrong" order you get a bad effect; in reality, if you understand the actual physiological principles behind what you are doing (basically creating specific changes in intra-abdominal, intra-thoracic and intra-cranial pressure in order to stimulate various types of autonomic responses), you could change things around "safely"

secretgecko
06-06-2007, 08:24 AM
Very interesting to a beginning student such as myself.

Can you please elaborate a bit more on how you use physiological principles (creating specific changes in intra-abdominal, intra-thoracic and intra-cranial pressure) to bring about autonmonic responses?

Lama Pai Sifu
06-06-2007, 08:26 AM
Very interesting to a beginning student such as myself.

Can you please elaborate a bit more on how you use physiological principles (creating specific changes in intra-abdominal, intra-thoracic and intra-cranial pressure) to bring about autonmonic responses?

Oh please, don't get him started! :) I don't think the forum has enough bandwith left...

cjurakpt
06-06-2007, 08:32 AM
Very interesting to a beginning student such as myself.

Can you please elaborate a bit more on how you use physiological principles (creating specific changes in intra-abdominal, intra-thoracic and intra-cranial pressure) to bring about autonmonic responses?



Oh please, don't get him started! :) I don't think the forum has enough bandwith left...

LOL! so true, so true...

anyway, this is one example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valsalva_maneuver

TenTigers
06-06-2007, 10:14 AM
I thought Valsalva was Viking Heaven....

cjurakpt
06-06-2007, 10:16 AM
I thought Valsalva was Viking Heaven....

well, do the first for long enough, you'll end up in the second (if you are a Viking of course);

All hail Odin the All-Father!!

secretgecko
06-06-2007, 12:45 PM
I thought Valsalva was Viking Heaven....

LOL!

Valhalla is Viking Heaven.

Valsalva is a maneuvre which can be performed either to clear the ears, arrest tachycardia, diagnose certain heart conditions, diagnose inguinal hernia or to diagnose certain orthopeadic conditions such as vertebral disc involvement.

TenTigers
06-06-2007, 01:46 PM
Valhalla...I thought that was Jewish bread. Y'know, the one tied up in knots and made from egg? Or possibly a term for the woman's privates. Or maybe both, like bread made from eggs and...tuna?

TenTigers
06-06-2007, 01:46 PM
But then again, isn't tuna that Chinese healing massage?

TenTigers
06-06-2007, 01:48 PM
-probably how they make Valhalla bread-they have to knead it with movements that eventually became massage techniques. Ah, it's small wonder the Chinese are called the Jews of Asia.

banditshaw
06-06-2007, 02:02 PM
Dude......did you take your meds today?

TenTigers
06-06-2007, 02:05 PM
Heck, Man. I decided to save time and took the entire week's.

secretgecko
06-06-2007, 03:18 PM
is there and active lion dance thread open right now?

anyone have good lion dance info to share?

BruceSteveRoy
06-06-2007, 07:50 PM
TT you are a genius... a mad, mad genius.

hskwarrior
06-07-2007, 11:37 AM
okay, lets try this again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvzQDW5KbP4

this is the lin wan kau da kuen performed by hung fut sifu Calvin Jones Jr.

BruceSteveRoy
06-07-2007, 12:19 PM
okay, lets try this again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvzQDW5KbP4

this is the lin wan kau da kuen performed by hung fut sifu Calvin Jones Jr.

thats pretty cool. this is maybe 1/3 of the form. where did this clip come from?

hskwarrior
06-07-2007, 01:07 PM
This came from Tat Mau Wong's KungFu theater.

it was a late night show on the weekends showing gung fu movies.

poorboy
06-07-2007, 09:52 PM
that's the beginning and end of the form. looks like it was filmed in the 90's sometime.

hskwarrior
06-08-2007, 01:45 PM
it was
:D

secretgecko
06-08-2007, 02:23 PM
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=768846#post768846

lkfmdc
06-08-2007, 03:03 PM
Dude, don't go onto a bunch of other threads and post a link to a thread that is unrelated just because people are ignoring you..... great way to get banned.....

f-in newbie :rolleyes:

secretgecko
06-08-2007, 03:53 PM
Dude, don't go onto a bunch of other threads and post a link to a thread that is unrelated just because people are ignoring you..... great way to get banned.....

f-in newbie :rolleyes:

Yes, I am a newbie!

I most humbly and sincerely apologize if I have offended you or anyone else with my post to the new thread.

My mistake, am I wrong in assuming that lion dancing and traditional chinese martial arts are unrelated?

Your correction is appreciated.

LWG

:)

hskwarrior
06-08-2007, 04:19 PM
nice way to bow out but not before unleashing your jedi mindtricks;)

jmd161
06-08-2007, 10:52 PM
Yes, I am a newbie!

I most humbly and sincerely apologize if I have offended you or anyone else with my post to the new thread.

My mistake, am I wrong in assuming that lion dancing and traditional chinese martial arts are unrelated?

Your correction is appreciated.

LWG

:)


secretgecko,


You just have to wait and see, if, anyone is interested in your thread. It can go a few days with no reply, and then out of nowhere you could get all kinds of ppl discussing it. Our it maybe a topic noone feels compelled to speak on.

Just trying to help from my experience with this and other forums.


jeff:)

zn_bassman
06-11-2007, 12:41 AM
okay, lets try this again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvzQDW5KbP4

this is the lin wan kau da kuen performed by hung fut sifu Calvin Jones Jr.

This clip shows a very abridged version of the first handset form in the Hung Fut style (accurately named above) as taught by Grandmaster Tai Yim in Maryland. The full form features all 10 of the Hung Fut animals, used in various combinations at long and short ranges.

hskwarrior
06-15-2007, 05:05 PM
http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&langpair=zh%7Cen&u=http://www.hungfutpai.net/first.html

zn_bassman
06-17-2007, 03:35 AM
I can't read Chinese, so I don't know exactly what is written there. But I do know from other HF boards that there are several versions of HF history and content. It is likely that this version is different from that espoused by the Tai Yim branch, and there are probably a few other versions extant on various websites.

The word according to Grandmaster Tai Yim is at:
http://www.taiyimkungfu.com/Home.php

zn_bassman
06-17-2007, 03:50 AM
These are transcriptions (apparently done by my si-hing Doug Cohen) of 2 "old" articles from Inside Kung Fu. The first is the first extensive basic informational piece about HF ever done in an all-English, US-based publication. The second is the only piece in English that I've seen about the 4 Cripples Form. Both feature Grandmaster Tai Yim.


http://groups.google.co.il/group/rec.martial-arts/browse_thread/thread/1553bdd351439d5e/26546546b28e076a?lnk=st&q=jane+hallander+cripple+hung+fut&rnum=2&hl=iw#26546546b28e076a

Tai-Lik
06-18-2007, 12:48 PM
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzermavg/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/bakmohungyu.jpg

hungmanfay
06-27-2007, 07:43 PM
Here is a clip taken in HK in the Kung Fu Corner couple of years back. It is Students of Sifu Hung Man Lok doing the lion dance and also some kung fu. The form performed is a WuSu spear form. Funny I was there that day and actually i have a cameo on it. lol :). Continued success to Sifu Hung Man Lok, his students and all HFP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFKtbzoLxmM

peace

Hung Fut 4ever!!!