What would you do?

[ammocase]

Heres a compilation of street fights in one video..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5EVrJCjMFA

What do you get out of it? Any tips? See your style or training to be effective in these situations?

I notice most of the girls ended up grappling on the ground most of the men didnt, almost all fights were one attacker grabbing the arm or head an swinging wildly towards the face of his attacker telepraphing their attacks usually with their right power side. Most was close range an the closed the gap fast, none paid any attention to their surroundings. None conserved energy, they rushed in an fed off the moment.

Due to the close quarters in all of the fights im extremely confident in my style of wing chun. Kali empty hands an other forms of close combat would fare well in my opinion when watching these videos. Knees an elbows were hardly ( an some never) used, these would have ended the fight fast, most of these fighters werent aware how dangerous these attacks would have been.

[Samurai Jack]

Even die-hard ground specialists know that in those situations you want to stay off the ground, or at the very least get up ASAP. You noticed how many of the by-standers would step in to throw a few kicks for thier favorites when folks started rolling, and it was always the one who got up first who ended up getting the advantage.

Anyhow, I still think for the average American street-fight, boxing and judo are tough to beat. Hope they re-open my local gym soon.

[BraveMonkey]

Those fight clips do show some of the scary and unpredictable side of random fights, but what they don't show is the how/why the fights started. Were these people who chose to "square off" or did one guy "jump" the other? Also, what started the fight? Was it intentional, or did one guy just lose it and attack on a whim? Was the fighting out of ego, revenge, for profit, or just to prove a point?

The answers to those questions will vary from situation to situation but they are pretty important. It's not wise to be to comfortable with your "skills" if you don't know how to avoid a fight or if you don't see it coming to begin with. It's good to have stand-up and ground tools, but fighting isn't about being fair and most training is entirely about being fair. The fights clips in question illustrate that point pretty well and also show the danger of ego/emotion in a confrontation.

We are all our own worst enemies when it comes to a fight. All to often we don't avoid them when we can, or we lose our cool when we can't. It's hard to show control when you know your opponent is not, but when they've got rage, intent, and total confidence on their side, you definitely need it.

[Samurai Jack]

That's an excellent point BraveMonkey. Not too many self-defense enthusiasts take the time to learn de-escalation techniques, crime avoidance strategies, nor invest any real time in learning to control thier adrenal response. People who do seek out that sort of info may never need to use thier fighting skills at all.

A few excellent books on the topics:

"A Proffessional's Guide to Ending Violence Quickly" (http://www.amazon.com/Professionals-Guide-Ending-Violence-Quickly/dp/0873648994/ref=pd_bbs_sr_7/102-7657338-4870516?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176741511&sr=8-7)and "Becoming a Complete Martial Artist: Error Detection in Self-Defense and Martial Arts" (http://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Complete-Martial-Artist-Self-Defense/dp/1592283705/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/102-7657338-4870516?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176741511&sr=8-3), by Marc MacYoung. MacYoung's style is full of war stories and in-your-face attitude that makes it pretty entertaining to read. The down side is that you have to wade through a lot of entertainment to find the real nuts and bolts.

Also, "Understanding and Preventing Violence: The Psychology of Human Destructiveness" (http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Preventing-Violence-Psychology-Destructiveness/dp/0849322650/ref=sr_1_6/102-7657338-4870516?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176741864&sr=1-6), by Lieghton Whitaker, is wordy, but thorough. If you are interested in learning about every possible aspect of the topic, right down to the brain chemistry, then look no further. If you want simple and easy to put in to use tonight, then the next title is your best bet:

"Hostile Ground : Defusing and Restraining Violent Behavior and Physical Assaults" (http://www.amazon.com/Hostile-Ground-Defusing-Restraining-Behavior/dp/1581600542/ref=sr_1_3/102-7657338-4870516?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176742069&sr=1-3), by Lewis and Ford gives the simpilist and most instantly useful step-by-step pointers out there. You can litterally spend a few hours reading this book, and use the info at whatever hot spot you choose to habit on the same night. Short on entertainment, long on quick and easy.

[BraveMonkey]

Thanks for the book titles. Resources like that are invaluable, even if they don't reflect the more glamorous side to self-defense (which is anything but glamorous when it's actually put to use).

Much appreciated.

[ammocase]

Im studyng the reactions of street fights taking note of common moves an applications from these random fights, analyzing their techniques an seeing if i can spot a common theme an relate to how my style would defend against that. People speak about that blah blah percentage of the fight does this an that, everyone has their theories, a quick google search can show you the reality of fighting, its a study material for combat in the modern world.

The who "why it happened" is a valuable topic, but im not evaluating why the fight excalated, you wont see me fighting some punk in front of hundreds while they laugh, im not glorifying fighting, im using this as a tool for studying self defense, who cares about the back story of idiots fighting, you cant reason with animals, sometimes you get attacked.

[SevenStar]

Not why - how. If you are analyzing streetfights, you need to analyze that as well. There are many people on the WC forum who say that WC really isn't all that great from an offensive standpoint. they say the strongpoint is defense. Knowing this, you need to also be analyzing the position of the participants - were they chest to chest? did one blindside the other? if they had some distance, how did it get closed? if there were multiple attackers, where were they?

If you are REALLY into self defense, then you do also want to know why the fight escalated. You can determine measures you would have taken to de-escalate the situation before it got out of hand.

you CAN reason with animals - lion trainers and others have been doing it for years. we tame lions, horses, etc. we train monkeys and dolphins - everything has its language, you just have to understand it. An aggressor in a fight is no different. A lot of times, you CAN reason with him and de-escalate a situation, if you know how.


People speak about that blah blah percentage of the fight does this an that, everyone has their theories, a quick google search can show you the reality of fighting, its a study material for combat in the modern world.


sure. and now you are ANALYZING it, which means what? you are now theorizing based on what you are seeing on google. Theory is inevitable at some point for most people, as they don't get the actual experience.

[ammocase]

Not why - how. If you are analyzing streetfights, you need to analyze that as well. There are many people on the WC forum who say that WC really isn't all that great from an offensive standpoint. they say the strongpoint is defense. Knowing this, you need to also be analyzing the position of the participants - were they chest to chest? did one blindside the other? if they had some distance, how did it get closed? if there were multiple attackers, where were they?

Am i the only one who is aware that this is a compilation of street fights with no back story... or is everyone not on planet earth? So how can anyone anazlye why lol... An a lot of people are saying WC doesnt have a offensive stand point an you base this on posts on a forum??? Moving on... an yes those are interesting points to bring up, blindside etc. thats why i left room for other members to post, to see the consenus of other peoples tactics an reactions. This WAS a what would YOU DO post... did anyone read that correctly? Not a what would i do post where i show the video an leave long descriptions of strategies.




If you are REALLY into self defense, then you do also want to know why the fight escalated. You can determine measures you would have taken to de-escalate the situation before it got out of hand.

you CAN reason with animals - lion trainers and others have been doing it for years. we tame lions, horses, etc. we train monkeys and dolphins - everything has its language, you just have to understand it. An aggressor in a fight is no different. A lot of times, you CAN reason with him and de-escalate a situation, if you know how.


How the fight excalated.. maybe ill message one of the memebers on youtube maybe he might have one or their numbers an i can ask him for myself.. cause no one on that whole page explains the why... an why ask why when thats neither the intention of this post... an why ask why when theirs no backstory.

An yes self defense is protection of self, an how better to protect yourself then to keep yourself free of harm whenever possible, an yes to stop a fight before it happens is the best choice... but that was not the reason behind this post.. everyone knows that, an no one asked that. But again.. the cool down of a fight on random street fights with no backstory is not a place to look for these kind of answers of why lol. Dont hijack the post, this was .. when your in a fight not before a fight... if you wouldnt allow a fight to happen or never see yourself in this situation.. then theres no reason to reply to this now is there?

An you can reason with animals? Do you even know what the definition of that word means lol... tell my pet dog that god exists... an you get kudo points lol...



Theory is inevitable at some point for most people, as they don't get the actual experience.

So being prepared does nothing an gains no advantage over those who dont? I studied fighters tapes an watched them spar, ive studied great kickboxers training an seen their best fights, just like the new york mets pitchers watch opposing batters to forumulate plans, an when the situation comes im better prepared. It defintely doesnt hurt.. to watch how fighters in the street brawl an analyzing it, then sitting at home an wondering how street fights occur or actual self defense is when they never seen it or experienced it. Why do i feel like im explaining something that doesnt really need to be explianed lol.. maybe you can show my pet dog reasoning to what i just said too while your at it?

[SevenStar]

Am i the only one who is aware that this is a compilation of street fights with no back story... or is everyone not on planet earth? So how can anyone anazlye why lol...

you missed the point. I am saying that knowing how is important. obviously, it's not on these vids, but you stated yourself that you weren't interested in how/why.



The who "why it happened" is a valuable topic, but im not evaluating why the fight excalated, you wont see me fighting some punk in front of hundreds while they laugh, im not glorifying fighting, im using this as a tool for studying self defense, who cares about the back story of idiots fighting, you cant reason with animals, sometimes you get attacked.




An a lot of people are saying WC doesnt have a offensive stand point an you base this on posts on a forum??? Moving on...

actually, no. I used to train with some WC guys. I am merely pointing out statements made here, as they are accessible.


an yes those are interesting points to bring up, blindside etc. thats why i left room for other members to post, to see the consenus of other peoples tactics an reactions. This WAS a what would YOU DO post... did anyone read that correctly? Not a what would i do post where i show the video an leave long descriptions of strategies.

sure. and I pointed out a hole I see in your analysis. A hole that I would not have in mine. Consequently, that is indeed part of what I would do.



An yes self defense is protection of self, an how better to protect yourself then to keep yourself free of harm whenever possible, an yes to stop a fight before it happens is the best choice... but that was not the reason behind this post..

honestly, the reason behind this post is stupid. You can't look at a fight and say "if it were me, I would do this" - since you weren't in the situation at that time, you really don't know. your analysis tangent is far better. 'what if' games can go on all day.


everyone knows that, an no one asked that. But again.. the cool down of a fight on random street fights with no backstory is not a place to look for these kind of answers of why lol. Dont hijack the post, this was .. when your in a fight not before a fight... if you wouldnt allow a fight to happen or never see yourself in this situation.. then theres no reason to reply to this now is there?

and since you are not in this situation and don't really know what you would do, then the discussion is pointless, no?


An you can reason with animals? Do you even know what the definition of that word means lol... tell my pet dog that god exists... an you get kudo points lol...

Main Entry: 1rea·son
the power of comprehending, inferring, or thinking especially in orderly rational ways

big human, little dog. big human stomp foot. foot might hurt me. I should run away.

animals have some sense of deductive reasoning.




So being prepared does nothing an gains no advantage over those who dont?

where did I say that?


It defintely doesnt hurt.. to watch how fighters in the street brawl an analyzing it, then sitting at home an wondering how street fights occur or actual self defense is when they never seen it or experienced it. Why do i feel like im explaining something that doesnt really need to be explianed lol.. maybe you can show my pet dog reasoning to what i just said too while your at it?


I actually don't disagree with that last statement - And your dog would probably understand it too - at least the part of it that is worth understanding.

[ammocase]

honestly, the reason behind this post is stupid. You can't look at a fight and say "if it were me, I would do this" - since you weren't in the situation at that time, you really don't know. your analysis tangent is far better. 'what if' games can go on all day.
.


Ummm ok, you went from sayin that my reason behind this post is stupid... then you agree that watching videos of fights an seeing what street fighters do is good to prepare one self an that you dont disaggree an no where in your posts you did... your contradicting yourself lol. The point of the post was just that, anaylzing the video of street fights.




sure. and I pointed out a hole I see in your analysis. A hole that I would not have in mine. Consequently, that is indeed part of what I would do.

.

A hole? I said an example, i left it to the reader to fill it in... cause again for the second time.. i put .. "what would you do", no where did i get into detail of what i would do... no where did i set an analysis.

[BraveMonkey]

Ammocase,

Although I understand your reason behind starting this thread, my initial point was that you cannot say that "I would have done this" or "this would have worked here" without knowing more than what is shown in the video.

Yes, avoiding a fight would be best, but, that aside, it is still a matter of what you don't see in these clips that plays the biggest difference. It's easy to say, "I would have brought my knee up at this point and struck him under the chin." That's always interesting to contemplate, but we just don't have enough information to know if that was a good idea.

Again, ask yourself what is really going on in these clips and you are pretty much going to draw a blank. Are any of these people friends, of whom one or both are drunk? Was the person being beaten down unexpectedly jumped? Was he ready for what was coming? Did he think the fight was over and done with when he was struck? Was he trying to talk his way out of it? Was the attacker backed by friends while the victim was alone? Maybe you don't think that these questions are important, but they play a much bigger role in the situation than what strike or hold to use.

I think your original point is valid, but I just don't think these clips give us much room for discussion the way you would like. To your credit, however, the people in these fights do look sloppy and the guy on top is usually the one who is angry and aggressive. That's nothing new, however, and I wish you luck in your training to avoid their mistakes, even if we can't say for certain what all of them are.

[ammocase]

Ok you guys are too focused on the why, like if i said to roleplay yourself as one of them. Im watching the fight an trying to find a theme in their way of fighting, an you guys are wondering if the situation is serious enough to warrant certain moves, again you roleplaying yourself in one on their shoes, your seeing the whole im seeing the punches an kicks. Im not asking for a lesson in the human mind, i approached this as the way a boxer would approach a taping of an oponnent hes defending against...

[SevenStar]

Ummm ok, you went from sayin that my reason behind this post is stupid... then you agree that watching videos of fights an seeing what street fighters do is good to prepare one self an that you dont disaggree an no where in your posts you did... your contradicting yourself lol. The point of the post was just that, anaylzing the video of street fights.

no contradiction at all. can watching vids be helpful? sure it can - more specifically though, of trained fighters when you are planning to fight one. there's no real way to memorize all of the different attacks, openings, counters, etc that you will see in a fight, either street or ring. For example, I wouldn't watch tapes to gain much insight on how thai boxers in general fight. however, when I have a match coming up, I would watch tapes of my opponent, since I am training for him specifically.

What is stupid is the what if game you are trying to play with it. I don't watch vids to say "if he does this, I will do this" I watch vids to form a framework to train around for the upcoming 12 weeks before the fight.





A hole? I said an example, i left it to the reader to fill it in... cause again for the second time.. i put .. "what would you do", no where did i get into detail of what i would do... no where did i set an analysis.


I notice most of the girls ended up grappling on the ground most of the men didnt, almost all fights were one attacker grabbing the arm or head an swinging wildly towards the face of his attacker telepraphing their attacks usually with their right power side. Most was close range an the closed the gap fast, none paid any attention to their surroundings. None conserved energy, they rushed in an fed off the moment.

Due to the close quarters in all of the fights im extremely confident in my style of wing chun. Kali empty hands an other forms of close combat would fare well in my opinion when watching these videos. Knees an elbows were hardly ( an some never) used, these would have ended the fight fast, most of these fighters werent aware how dangerous these attacks would have been.

observation is the first step of analysis, no? you began an analysis and then mentioned things that you would not include in your full analysis. your beginning analysis and your statements afterward have a flaw.

[SevenStar]

Ok you guys are too focused on the why, like if i said to roleplay yourself as one of them. Im watching the fight an trying to find a theme in their way of fighting, an you guys are wondering if the situation is serious enough to warrant certain moves, again you roleplaying yourself in one on their shoes, your seeing the whole im seeing the punches an kicks. Im not asking for a lesson in the human mind, i approached this as the way a boxer would approach a taping of an oponnent hes defending against...

that's actually not the approach a boxer would take. this is what I mentioned before... it's too theoretical. A boxer's approach would be similar, but WAY more physical. A boxer wouldn't look at a tape of his opponent and say "hmm...when he does this, I will do this" - A boxer will watch the tape, find strengths and weaknesses and then develop a training plan to exploit the weaknesses and neutralize the strengths. For one fighter, this can be done, but you can't memorize or train to do this to mass groups of fighters. This is where sparring comes in, but that is for a different discussion.

[Samurai Jack]

An yes self defense is protection of self, an how better to protect yourself then to keep yourself free of harm whenever possible, an yes to stop a fight before it happens is the best choice... but that was not the reason behind this post.. everyone knows that, an no one asked that. But again.. the cool down of a fight on random street fights with no backstory is not a place to look for these kind of answers of why lol. Dont hijack the post, this was .. when your in a fight not before a fight... if you wouldnt allow a fight to happen or never see yourself in this situation.. then theres no reason to reply to this now is there?


Everyone knows that, but few choose to learn how to do it. It's not as simple as walk away when you are faced with being "attacked by an animal".

Anyway, these weren't videos of random street fights, these were exhibitions where fighter A and fighter B squared off, surrounded by friends. It was treated like an exhibition by them, and everyone involved... therefore it was not "self-defense".

Now, to get back to the topic of "What would you do?"

If I am faced with a flailing, aggressive, and unpredictable attack such as what was depicted, I would try and control thier balance first and foremost. most of those people were trying *so* hard to hit thier opponent with power, that they were throwing themselves at thier target. You notice that when someone misses in that situation, most of the time they fall down.

So using that characteristic to your advantage, by getting behind and / or to the side of the attacker, thus neutralizing his ability to generate the power he is throwing at you, locking onto an elbow, shoulder, or neck, and using that power to toss him on his head... that's what I like to do. It's also a great opportunity to hit him, but I seldom see that actually ending a fight cleanly. If we were alone, I'd pin him and have a chat about what was going to happen when I let him back up. If we were surrounded by enemies, I'd do the same to the next guy until an opening to "beat feet" came.

Now bear in mind, I restrain people like this for a living. It may not be what a person with a boxing or MMA background would do, although I have experience in those things as well.

[BraveMonkey]

SamuraiJack makes some good points. Perhaps it's only a semantics game, but there is a difference between asking "what would you do" and "what can you learn" from these clips. SJ seems to have answered the later of the two. There is always something to be learned from other peoples mistakes, but that doesn't necessarily give us leave to assert how we would have handled the situation the "right" way.

Again, we just don't have enough information to know what would have made the situations better or worse with any really confidence in this Youtube video, but it is still valuable to look for common mistakes made or tactics employed by the people depicted in the clips.

[SevenStar]

Everyone knows that, but few choose to learn how to do it. It's not as simple as walk away when you are faced with being "attacked by an animal".

Anyway, these weren't videos of random street fights, these were exhibitions where fighter A and fighter B squared off, surrounded by friends. It was treated like an exhibition by them, and everyone involved... therefore it was not "self-defense".

Now, to get back to the topic of "What would you do?"

If I am faced with a flailing, aggressive, and unpredictable attack such as what was depicted, I would try and control thier balance first and foremost. most of those people were trying *so* hard to hit thier opponent with power, that they were throwing themselves at thier target. You notice that when someone misses in that situation, most of the time they fall down.

So using that characteristic to your advantage, by getting behind and / or to the side of the attacker, thus neutralizing his ability to generate the power he is throwing at you, locking onto an elbow, shoulder, or neck, and using that power to toss him on his head... that's what I like to do. It's also a great opportunity to hit him, but I seldom see that actually ending a fight cleanly. If we were alone, I'd pin him and have a chat about what was going to happen when I let him back up. If we were surrounded by enemies, I'd do the same to the next guy until an opening to "beat feet" came.

Now bear in mind, I restrain people like this for a living. It may not be what a person with a boxing or MMA background would do, although I have experience in those things as well.

when I am at work, I cannot strike, only throw and restrain. I have success with large circle grappling holds - chokes, full nelson, chicken wing... foot throws and the double leg have worked for me as well.

[bodhitree]

Somewhat unrelated

I think judo is great for cops. BJJ and the guard position often put an officer's gun in a position that is accessable to the suspect. Judo (or wrestling) with emphasis on throws/takedowns and pins are great for law enforcement.

[SevenStar]

agreed....

[Black Jack II]

I think judo is great for cops. BJJ and the guard position often put an officer's gun in a position that is accessable to the suspect. Judo (or wrestling) with emphasis on throws/takedowns and pins are great for law enforcement

100% agree.

Judo has been a cops best friend for a long time. Only now do you see some odd hybrid systems come poping up when judo has been around the block and back.

The judo the cops used to know back in the day was not the watered down stuff either, atemi waza was the order of the day as well as throws and handling skills.

[nospam]

ammocase - I hear ya. And I agree, peeps around these parts are way too analytical on 'why'. Keep doing what you're doing and if you practise MAs, good for you. Even from small clips, you can begin to discern common elements of how an untrained person fights- a worth while endeavour.

nospam
:cool:

[Takuan]

And they all ignore the horribly obvious Kick to the groin!!! :P

[Lee Chiang Po]

You guys do too much analyzing. You can never know when you might have to fight, and from day to day that same incident might take place differently. This is why we train. So that we can take advantage of any oppertunity. One time I was driving to work in Dallas, and I was in heavy traffic. I have no idea why, but suddenly I became the object of a car load of interest. The guys in another car were mad at me for something. I was in front of them, maybe not moving as fast as they wanted to go, but I was stuck in traffic too. Anyway, a rather large and mad individual suddenly jerked my car door open and went to wailing on me. He hit me in my face once, and tried to hit me again with the same arm. I manage to deflect his right fist across my body and he sort of came in with it. I pulled him in and down, and completely without any thought of what to do, I reached around his neck with my right arm and locked my grip with my left hand. His right arm was trapped across my body and he could not retract it. His left arm was blocked by the steering wheel. I had my right forearm locked around his neck and under his chin, I just turned slightly to my left and leaned way back, which pulled his head down to where he was kissing his own chest. It only took about a minute before he passed out. I made sure he was out and just shoved him off me. When I got out of the car the other guys had gotten back into their car. The big fellow just laid there. I got in and drove on to work, fully expecting the police to come see me at work. But, that never happened. I should have laid him out into the traffic. My face swole up and my eye would not open next day. Black as a spade. But I bet even though he had no black eyes, his throat was sore and he had a terrible cough. Point is that you never know. But then again, you may go the rest of your life without ever having a bad word for anyone. The idea hear is to stay away from places where you might find confrontation. Don't put yourself in danger. And practice your footwork. Haul Arse if you can.

Jack

[Lee Chiang Po]

By the way. This is a real cool forum. Don't understand most of what I have read, but it is definately interesting.

Jack

[Samurai Jack]

Good to see you again Lee, your war stories are entertaining as always. I think you rather make my point, though. What you describe is a real self-defense encounter. You don't strike me as the sort of dude who would challenge someone to "step outside" so you could show-off to a bunch of your friends. Your stories always show the simple truth; getting in a street fight hurts. Only a fool or a psychopath does it for fun.

[Lee Chiang Po]

That was my nephew. But thanks. Yes, fighting always strikes fear into my heart. I have been hurt really bad at times, but my training earlier in my life has really saved my life a few times.
I think it also comes down to a frame of mind. A person that is not ready to inflict grave injury upon someone will himself become the victim. I have been training my nephew in the ways of self defense, and the very first moves I have been teaching him is that of fleeing in the face of danger. They can't whip you if they can't catch you. Running and making a lot of racket has broken up a many a fight.