Rick Spain question

[drleungjohn]

Just wondering why he teaches in a gi ?

[anerlich]

Because wetsuits are too hot, you tend to trip over the capes on superhero outfits, full-length dresses don't suit him, it's hard to chi sao in a straitjacket, and suits of armour tend to rust with all the sweat.

He also teaches BJJ, and gi's last longer than T shirts or those Chinese jackets with the frog buttons when you're using clothing grips.

(Psst. Sometimes we train WITHOUT gi's as well. Rash guards and board shorts, or similar.)

[fei_jai]

Rick Spain's school is a combat school teaching MMA including BJJ.

[drleungjohn]

that's what I Thought

[drleungjohn]

Has he changed,altered modified anything,forms,curriculum,etc- since leaving and going out on his own-NO FLAME-TROLL ETC-Just curious...

[anerlich]

The forms (including swords) and dummy have not changed in sequence, but much greater use is made of the front stance than it was when we were in William Cheung's organisation. We do a version of SLT which has extensive footwork, much more than the usual TWC Advanced SLT. We have canonical sequences for gradings etc. but are encouraged to experiment with them, so the form is a framework rather than an precise and exact sequence.

Rick Spain claims that William Cheung showed him all this one day. I don't know whether he showed it to anyone else. Sounds somewhat improbable and shades of the TWC genesis story I know, but I have no evidence to refute it and no reason to doubt. Anyone who wants to argue about it needs to get a life - I'm not interested.

Footwork is a bit freer and more boxing related. We also integrate more of the side/roundhouse/hook kick arsenal than some WC schools. We also train and employ boxing style head movement, bobbing/weaving and evasions in our sparring.

The curriculum includes clinch, grappling and ground work, and students must demonstate certain levels of skill in these to reach certain grades. Most of this is straight BJJ and wrestling from the Machado organisation here. A fair amount of work has gone into the grappling/striking integration, both standing and GnP - some from WC but a lot from Rick's BJJ/MMA coaches.

A certain amount of CQC-style knifework from Hock Hochheim is also introduced, but most students don't do nearly enough of this to say they have many skills. I do more than most but not nearly enough to be much more than a danger to myself.

Competition is not a major focus but we have had some BJJ successes at state and national level and some fighters who have succeeded at intermediate level MMA, some with up to six successful fights.

We don't make any claims of superiority or uniqueness, just to be an academy trying to be as professional and innovative as possible.

John, I look forward to spitting on flames both from the self appointed antitheoretician terrorists and the fundamentalist keepers of the pure WC flame. :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

There's no reason to doubt your story, Andrew...and Rick's training curiculum sounds like a very good one.

Some people have taken me to task upon occasion for my ideas about striking into shoulder/central lines as a means of getting in close in order to go to work (kind of like using dual centerlines near the shoulders - wherein each of my arms are battling each of his for control of both respective territories)...but all I've done here is expand on some things I've heard from William Cheung also.

The idea of using longer reaching/longer range horizontal straight line boxing punches to do this is my idea - but the basic concept is William Cheung's...

at a seminar once....that's right, JUST ONCE, in all the years I've been around him, he told someone (I don't even remember who)....that his left arm should take care of the opponent's right arm and his right arm shold take care of the guys left arm. (Yes, they were standing in front stances).

As to the stances used/footwork I prefer now....I use a stance that's basically in-between the neutral side (body) stance and the front stance (more narrow than the usual side body stance and with one foot slightly closer to the opponent (the foot corresponding to my lead arm)...so that the feet are NOT exactly on the same plane (like they are with the side stance).

I find it easier/faster to attack into his space from here than from the neutral side stance - but since the feet are still relatively close together and "almost" on the same plane - the FULL SIDESTEP is still pretty easy to get off quickly when it's needed.

[drleungjohn]

wonderfully appreciated by you both-ok-yes,I have seen his front leg SLT and wondered-I do that as training for myself,and for group classes to get a different feel to things and see how it applies of the lead and back leg-I teach both YM and TWC in my school,so they have a comparison and "taste" of both--

and since I have very little experience with the ground game I am looking into it now,but I let my 2 senior students who cross train in it (one does BJJ-the other is a past College Wrestler)do a lot of it in class for exposure and experimentation

I thionk many incorporate things that flow well into their WCK,like kali and Silat-as well as boxing for example-thus we ahve the "ranges" and "flow" of technique--

many thanks again guys

[Knifefighter]

and since I have very little experience with the ground game I am looking into it now,but I let my 2 senior students who cross train in it (one does BJJ-the other is a past College Wrestler)do a lot of it in class for exposure and experimentation


Hmmm.... You said before that you were a brown belt in Judo.

[Ultimatewingchun]

But I also remember saying more than once on that thread that he may have been attending one of those judo schools back in the day that did mainly throwing, sweeping, falling....and very little else.


but John never commented on that one way or the other - so maybe it's true. If so, no big deal. It's never too late to start learning a ground game.

[Sihing73]

Hmmm.... You said before that you were a brown belt in Judo.

So what??? I had a Black Belt in Judo when I was 13 but my ground game was weak so I preferred to concentrate on throws. While you need to have some ground skills to compete it does not mean that needs to be your focus. Points are points :D

It seems to me that you always try to pick a point to degrade rather than discuss :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

So what??? I had a Black Belt in Judo when I was 13 but my ground game was weak so I preferred to concentrate on throws. While you need to have some ground skills to compete it does not mean that needs to be your focus.

There is a big difference between "not focusing" newaza and having "very little experience with the ground game".

All judo has newaza. A brown belt, even a school that focuses mostly on throws (which are almost all schools in the US), will still have more than just a passing familiarity with ground work.

[anerlich]

To interrupt the never ending but vital search for trivial inconsistencies in other's posts for a moment :rolleyes: :

Rick Spain has no rank in judo. He got his BJJ purple belt in 2004 IIRC.

[Knifefighter]

To interrupt the never ending but vital search for trivial inconsistencies in other's posts for a moment :rolleyes: :

Speaking of glaring B.S. inconsistencies:

So what??? I had a Black Belt in Judo when I was 13

You have to be 16 to reach shodan in judo.

[drleungjohn]

For myself-I enjoy your posts now because the issue of whether you are an azzhole is no longer in question-it's how big the hole is-

It's so sad that everyone still tries to be so civil to you-and a waste of time-

When you can't argue a fact, have nothing of value to say or you don't have anything to say constructively- you look for issues to make- just to put your superior 2 cents in-yet when I asked you where your Youtube clips where-you ignored that.But "we" have to prove and kow tow to you?

Your brain just can't wrap itself around some things-such is your insecurity and always looking to cut people down to make you feel taller and more superior-

I know what it is I said and wrote-I didn't like ground work then,I still don't-AND I hated trying to choke somebody out with a Gi!-Naked strangleholds I liked though-

I haven't done randori in over 20 years and wouldn't insult Judo or my teacher(Matthew Ferber-google him if you like,but you'll have to go back to 78-early 80's)by saying I was a judoka-regardless of belt since I don't actively train in it-
and that means being on the mat-

But can I throw,sweep,lock and strangle-yup still can because I work it into my art- because that's what I liked and felt comfy with--

How difficult is it to learn a curriculum,pass a test,get a belt-and then move on-I didn't do my Black Belt for a reason! I did Judo for the experience,to taste it and know what it felt like on both ends-but my reality was still in punching and kicking first-and once tranquilized-sweep and throw-

And Victor is so right-flashback to the late 70's and early 80's-(what were you doing back then-)martial arts classes were quite different then-Matt knew I was a boxer and kung fu guy so we emphasized that first and foremost-not that difficult of a thing to understand-if your point was really in understanding-but it's not-as always

PS-Thanks Victor, but no need-

Why be on Wing Chun forum if you don't do Wing Chun anymore ?-you said you had 4-5 years of it-but YOU couldn't make it work for you-In your philosophy-ergo-WCK sucks-(read that to mean I have a big ego,because if I can't do it-nobody can)-so, do you still do it ?-obviously not-but you're still here for God knows what reason?!? But your reason's are pretty clear aren't they-There is nothing here for you to learn,share or discuss-other then,all reality to you is a grappling situation-but that's an unrealistic reality-not every job needs a hammer-

I can kick somebody in the head-but that doesn't mean I would either!

You asked(baited would be a better word) about a single leg takedown-You got answers from 3 people I believe-

Please don't make the huge egotistical ass-umption that they were the ONLY ones with answers-they are the only ones who felt like typing to you-

In the words of Mona Lisa Vito "It's a Bull**** question"--

You set the stage for it-but let me ask you a better question-what's the grappler's answer for getting a knife buried in his gut-?? Same difference-

The real answer-in my opinion-it depends-
How did you get there?-Did Scotty beam you down to his ankle?

What happened to or in all the other ranges? Was the WCK guy asleep?

Did you get hit at all on the way down? Is he still standing in front of you ?

They will both hate me for this-but both Victor and Terence are right(please guys,don't hate me)-I believe Andy S. also posted to you and was also correct-

Based on the respective operating ranges-

WCK preferred answer is to keep you in Man Sao range,at worst Wu Sao range-Tae Kwon Do's preferred answer is to keep you at lead leg kicking range,or back leg kicking range if push comes to shove-

Even Victor's answer has to be done BEFORE you complete the move-because THEN-all the answers are the same-you fall down-

My question at that point would be-would YOU not then get kicked in the face with the other foot if both your hands and shoulder was still wrapped around his ankle? Or if need be-kicked in the shoulder and clavicle if you were hiding your head on the outside of his ankle.

Really at this point why don't you just lurk,being happy and convinced of your superior knowledge that nobody in WCK or this forum could grapple with you verbally and win-

[Knifefighter]

you look for issues to make- just to put your superior 2 cents in-yet when I asked you where your Youtube clips where-you ignored that.But "we" have to prove and kow tow to you?

I've posted this before but since you missed it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwLFeIqjQ3Q

Where's yours? Oh, that's right... you only "spar" in the cocoon of your little school where no videos are allowed and only "fight" on the street where it counts and where there are no videos.


How difficult is it to learn a curriculum,pass a test,get a belt-and then move on-I didn't do my Black Belt for a reason! I did Judo for the experience,to taste it and know what it felt like on both ends-

Since judo is competition based you wouldn't have been able to get graded if you only learned the currriculum and passed a "test". One needs to compete- that is part of the grading in judo.


And Victor is so right-flashback to the late 70's and early 80's-(what were you doing back then-)martial arts classes were quite different then-Matt knew I was a boxer and kung fu guy so we emphasized that first and foremost-

LOL @ going to judo class and emphasizing something else. You are completely full of sh!t.


Why be on Wing Chun forum if you don't do Wing Chun anymore ?-

It's hard not to comment on clueless liars.



WCK preferred answer is to keep you in Man Sao range,at worst Wu Sao range-Tae Kwon Do's preferred answer is to keep you at lead leg kicking range,or back leg kicking range if push comes to shove-

LOL... of course keeping someone from performing the technique is what everyone wants to do, no matter what the technique, scenario, or system.

However, the question was related to the specific scenario of what happens once the low single is being applied.



My question at that point would be-would YOU not then get kicked in the face with the other foot if both your hands and shoulder was still wrapped around his ankle? Or if need be-kicked in the shoulder and clavicle if you were hiding your head on the outside of his ankle.

LOL... you can't kick someone with the other foot becuase that is the only base holding you up.


WCK preferred answer is to keep you in Man Sao range,at worst Wu Sao range-Tae Kwon Do's preferred answer is to keep you at lead leg kicking range,or back leg kicking range if push comes to shove-

And those answers were anywhere from fine to not very good, depending on where in the attack the low single was being defended.

However, none of those had anything to do with what to do once it was almost secured, as what was happend in the scenario. Clearly WC "principles" were not the answer in this case.



You asked(baited would be a better word) -

Speaking of baiting, why would someone who doesn't do and doesn't like groundfighting start a thread on groundfighting on a WC forum?

[Sihing73]

Speaking of glaring B.S. inconsistencies:


You have to be 16 to reach shodan in judo.

Funny since I had mine, of course perhaps I was missinformed. My Teacher was Roy Moyerman but of course I may not know what I am talking about ;) You may find that they do offer what may be considered "junior" rankings but hey I guess they don't count unless it suits your POV.

Funny thing is it was my trying out Judo on someone who knew Wing Chun when I was about 16 that convinced me to study WC. Of course it helped that his sister was hot as well :D

[anerlich]

However, the question was related to the specific scenario of what happens once the low single is being applied.

Actually the thread was about why a particular individual teaches in a gi.

Then we veered off into the idiot zone with the usual regurgitation, inquisition and name-calling.

[drleungjohn]

I apologize for the rectal orifice remark-I lost my center for a moment