Southern arts - how different are they ?

[Eric Ling]

Hi everybody,

Now it’s my turn to turn the spotlight onto someone else …… Jim Roselando…:p

Jim said :

“Small differences running between the arts. Including all south fist there really is only small differences.”

I think differences are pretty discernible.

But that’s just me, what about you folks?

Warmest Regards.

Eric

Ps Robert, you turned the “Karma Wheel” …….:D :D :D

[Shaolinlueb]

i thnk southern mantis definetly looks different from hung ga, choylay fut, and bak mei. some of the styles i cant tell the difference between. thats because i dont studdy southern arts or see a lot of it.

[brothernumber9]

In my opinion it's entirely subjective depending on what parameters you use for commonality. There are obvious groupings, at least by what has been posted and published. For example Hakka styles like SPM, Bak Mei, Loong Ying, have glaring similarities, at least in appearance from outsiders. Mixed "southern" styles like Choy Lay Fut, Jow Ga, Hung Fut, Lau Ga, also have glaring similarities. The differences are easily discernable as well, but within those groups you see a similarity in basic structure and techs.

Gwa, Sow, Chaarp, Pow, Ping (Bean), Pek, Chum, Chuynh, Dat (dar), in similar or easily identifiable small combinations are recognizable between, the "mixed" southern styles I mentioned above. Even though thier origins are at least half, completely unrelated.

I have an idea that geographical development plays a good deal on similarities between "southern" styles.

To be more clear, take a look at Hakka styles, and subsequently, "mixed" southern styles that came out of Toisan and how similar they are. In addition take a look at almost all styles that developed at least 50yrs in and out of HK, and see the similarities in concepts. They are there. If you want to be even more abstract, take a look at San shou/San Da fighters from such schools. Look at the Choy Lay Fut full contact fighters out of Sifu Tat Mau Wong's schools, Sifu Li Siu Hung's shcools, and from Sifu Lacey's Buck Sing Schools, from the D.C., MD, VA Jow Ga schools, Hung Fut, and even Hung Ga from NYC. Then look at the fighters from Sifu Yee's Jook Lum, from the Sifu Yip's Loong Ying in NYC, from Yau Kung Moon on the west coast. What do you think? Am I off base?

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Eric,


When I say small differences I am refening to the arts like:

South Mantis, Fukein Crane, Lung Ying, Wing Chun, Bak Mei etc..

They are all essentially real similar in hand Shapes/tools but primary difference being cultivation/dna.

Example:

Wing Chun has Tan Sao
South Mantis has Choc Shu
White Crane has Water Palm
etc...

Same basic hand shape/concept but whats the difference? Ging/Body Dynamics

I am not talking about Hung Gar/Choy Li fut and other arts common to the south but rather the Fujian/Hakka related systems.

Good topic.

[mantis108]

Hi everybody,

Now it’s my turn to turn the spotlight onto someone else …… Jim Roselando…:p

Jim said :

“Small differences running between the arts. Including all south fist there really is only small differences.”

I think differences are pretty discernible.

But that’s just me, what about you folks?

Warmest Regards.

Eric

Ps Robert, you turned the “Karma Wheel” …….:D :D :D

Excellent! :D

Here's some info on Luoshan Pai (Mount Luo's styles)


羅山—位于廣東省海豐縣可塘鎮，乃羅山派拳術發源地。由于羅山一帶有數十條小村
在古時結盟互保，誓盟成約，所以又稱羅山約或稱羅山寨。
羅山拳已超過百多二百年歷史，是海陸豐著名拳種，羅山拳之歷史以往一直都是師
徒口口相傳，並沒有歷史文獻記載。羅山拳古時是相當低調，所有公開場合，都以
個人名義參予，從不以門派身份出席任何活動，所以外間對本門派認識甚少。在海
陸豐一帶稱羅山拳為羅山種。羅山拳術，是樸實無華，純以技擊為主的拳術。
羅山派拳術在明末清初時由郭晉祖師將南少林拳術精要揉合了海豐嗜武文化，演變
出羅山拳種，其後傳授兒子郭褔如，後傳郭三〝號稱羅山森〞（第三代），後傳郭
劍〝號稱劍師〞（第四代），為當代之表表者，劍師遍收外姓第子，將其發揚光大，
成為海陸豐熱門拳種。
中國內地解放後，本派拳師大量湧到香港，以教授拳術為生，而當時本派名師有吳
榮師傅、莊布師傅、黃國輝師傅、何炳權師傅、劉家閑師傅等人。
羅山拳術之身形要點：沉肩落肘、腰跨正直、馬步沉實。身法要點：正身、小偏身、
身轉如軸。手形要點：拳、掌、指、爪、肘。手法要點：穿、沉、挑、擒、破、掃、
插、內圈、外圈等。步法要點：迫、進、退、橫、麒麟步。腿法要點：正釘、側釘、
撩陰、掃、勾及膝。內練：精、氣、神，外練：身、手、眼。
羅山拳術基本功：三步推、亞字拳。拳法有：頭樁、頭門破、二樁、三樁、三角、
則斗、雪花蓋頂、刀仔、四門、風車手、趕打、三腳虎、猛虎、出林虎、捕採、穿
心、猴公出洞、一氣連枝等，以羅山一百零八步最為著名。
兵器方面有：長棍、鐵尺、虎叉、單刀配籐牌、尖撩等。

Luo Shan Pai (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E9h91gmO2I)

Enjoy

Warmest regards

Robert

[Eric Ling]

Hi everybody,

Jim , I agree and disagree with you.

Those styles that you listed, at some levels, are related but still, there are perceivable differences.

Now I don’t really get it when you guys go DNA this and DNA that but I assume you are referring to “Mu Quan” or “Mother Fist Methods”.

At that fundamental level, yes I see your point. Or like Bruce Lee said: A punch is a punch and a kick is a kick.

But to me, there are many ways to kick or punch

If you were to ask for Wing Chun, White Crane, Bak Mei, Southern PM, Chu Gar or Saolim “Mu Quan”, I bet you that you’re going hear differing answers.

Entire training paradigm is designed around “Mu Quan” and that to me, lead to different ends.

Some common characteristics, yes.

But overall, still different.

Brothernumber9, imho, I think distinctions in the arts became blurred when they landed in places like USA.

This could be due to more “openness” practiced there.

Take my experience for example; when I was there I was doing seminars/workshops and I see folks from many styles attending and I wonder how much of what they picked up ended up in their training syllabus. I had teachers from other styles coming to my seminars….

Here in SE Asia, older Sifus are reluctant to give you more than a glimpse of their arts.

This mindset is only starting to change and humbly, I think it could be, in small way, due to folks like me.

Warmest Regards.

Eric

ps Robert, it's 3 in the morning here in Kuching ... but I viewed the clip you linked and noticed something interesting. Will get back to you on that one....

[brothernumber9]

"Brothernumber9, imho, I think distinctions in the arts became blurred when they landed in places like USA."

Eric, could yo elaborate a little more on this for me? I'm not sure what you mean by it. How does "openness" blur the distinctions, especially when many of these teachers are first generation immigrants, and had no prior contact or in many cases knowledge of each other.

Some say, well wing chun has tan sau and biu jee, SPM hook, swallow, spit, with Phoenix eye, Bak mei has similar with perhaps less "connecting", Bak Hok has water palm. However, I beleive they all have what the other has, just favor different techs over the other with variances in power generation, particularly including or excluding waist movement/amplification and anchor from the back foot.

[Vajramusti]

Depends on what POV one is using. To my mind...if one wants to do wing chun, one needs a good wing chun teacher.

Some knowledge of other southern arts may give some small cerebral understandings of wing chun-but one has to do wing chun to learn it.


joy chaudhuri

[Eric Ling]

Hi brothernumber9,

Just an observation based on the folks I came into contact with in the US.

• One person doing multiple styles quite readily accepted.
• Workshops/seminars or short courses opened to all.

With all that “cross-training”, I expect some amount of blending to take place.

Maybe not with the early immigrant Sifus but I am more referring to contemporary
scenarios.

I think I goofed when I said “landed in USA”….:o

Robert, in the clip you posted, what do you make of the “leading leg stomping and leading hand striking” technique in almost every form ….

Warmest Regards.

Eric

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Eric,


The root of these arts is 3 Step/Tri Post Bow body.

Some call it:

3 Battles, 3 Steps, 3 Arrows, etc..

Hands can only flip and turn so many ways since they are built around Jung Sein principle boxing. What makes the difference then between them? Conditoining of the body and power generation.

DNA:

With regards to the wai gong aspects lets think of dna in this way.

Human 1: conditions his muscles with dip gwat gong from south mantis
Human 2: conditions his muscles with snake slide caccon from emei
Human 3: conditions his muscles with weight lifting from the gym

The result will be a different """Texture""" to the muscle. When each person does there thing it will look the same but produce a different result on the end do to the conditioned Texture of the practitioner.

Power Generation:

This is simple enough. How you power the tools. (mange force vectors) The human body essentially can only flex open and close. Do you Press Up/Open mainly? Do you Drop/Close mainly? Etc..

Heart/Mind:

Ahhhhhhhh! Sensative topic! No time to get into this. Another avenue for art process discussion.


There is are only so many ways to move or twist the body. The way we condition it and deliver it make the major differences.

What makes Wing Chun Wing Chun is the Rou component. If you look at Crane being practiced with the Tri-Post horse I would say imagine if someone pulled the front leg back to even with rear leg? """Almost""" (dont shoot me for saying that) Yi Ji Kim Yeung Ma. Someone took the San Chin idea and came up with Siu Lin Tau root idea. Legend states we are are the snake style of crane. With White crane having 350 years of solid written records, and effects on so many of the south tradititions, I would say we are just Soft Crane. :)


Gotta run,

[Eric Ling]

Hi Jim,

High hand, high hand indeed ….

“There is are only so many ways to move or twist the body. The way we condition it and deliver it make the major differences.”

Wouldn’t you say that these major differences constitute “perceivable differences” in the overall presentation of the art form?

I agree that SanChin permeates most Southern Fukien styles and to a certain extent, some Hakka.

Imho, because it’s such a complex concept, it spins off in many shades in various styles.

And with added elements from other concepts, some forms, even stemming from Sanchin, assume a different characteristics identity in a major manner.

Errrhhh, I hope you understand what I am trying to convey… me and my awkward writing.

To illustrate, take the case of White Crane.

Most would agree that it all started with Fukien White Crane or Yong Chun White Crane.

Over a period of time, it branches off to many substyles.

And if I just take Whooping Crane and cross reference it to the mother Crane, I not only see disparities in forms but also in deliveries and many other aspects.

Coincidentally, this was a topic that I discussed with both GM Pan Cheng Miaow and Ruan Dong when I spoke to them.

I did the same with Taiwan’s Sifu Liu Chang I.

And we agreed that we came from the same source but flowed in different directions; to the point that we’re perceivably different.

Have to concur that if you reduced it to DNA level, you see much sameness.

Errrhhh maybe I am splitting hair here?

Warmest Regards.

Eric

[Mulong]

Nanquan (southern boxing), can be divided by regional characteristic, i.e., Guangdong and Fujian.

For example, Guangdong styles prefers the mabu/mah bouh (horse footstep) and gongbu/gung bouh (bow footstep); where as the Fujian prefers the erzibu /yih jih bouh (two character footstep) and the jiuzibu / gau jih bouh (nine character footstep).

[Ozzy Dave]

Hi Eric and everyone, this is a great topic.

I have to agree that Southern Styles display a great deal of difference. This is because Southern Styles as a group display a wide range of flavours.

Basically, everyone has the same range of technical expression, we all hit, kick, lock and take down but the way its applied, the technical application, is different depending on the tactics chosen. For me tactics is a key component of a style’s flavour i.e. what make Bai He the same or different from Lohan.

This basically comes down to the choice of different masters in the past as to what was effective for them and by extension what is effective in general. Sometimes this can be discerned by an expression like “hands out stay out” like Eric has commented before of the Hakka styles. (apologies Eric if I got the term wrong)

That’s why you also have a root system and can have many expressions down the line as various masters “improve” or “adjust” the basic flavour of a style.

This IMHO is something special in TCMA - it allows traditional and change states to exist at the same time and keeps the styles ALIVE.

That’s also where the ART of MA comes in and I think we as martial artists should look at and appreciate the different flavours of the styles rather than just compare technical similarities or differences as the specific techniques developed by a style, say a Wing Chun style punch as apposed to a Lohan style flat fist, can’t be compared on their own merits in isolation but only in relation to the flavour of the style in application.

So even if maybe from a technical point of view things can seem to be reduced to similar things I feel it’s really the “flavour” of a style that differentiates one style from another.

Its like with noodle dishes – something close to my heart. :D Take char koay teow, you can put more dark sauce or less, you can have clams or lap chong or both, more or less bean sprouts, prawns, etc but its still char koay teow. Change the ingredients and sauce a bit and you get char hor fun a different “style” even though the dish technically is kind of the same.

[Eric Ling]

Hi Dave from Ozzy and everybody else ….


Thank you thank you,

Finally someone using terms like “ART OF MA” and “FLAVOR”…

For a while there, I thought I am the only one to still think of CMA in those manners.

Sorry I am really lousy in breaking down CMA into microscopic pieces and comparing.

For me it all about feel, flow and rhythm …. a kick might be a kick and a punch might just be a punch ….

But I dance to my own music.

Bottoms up Dave …..

Warmest Regards.

Eric

Btw…I like my noodles with fish balls, chilies, tomatoes sauce, minced pork and shi-ta-ke mushroom …. Like the way they serve it in Singapore....:D :D :D

[TenTigers]

I like the idea of a root or mother system, or core concepts, and different flavours evolving from the core.
If you were to take two people, put them in a vaccuum, meaning have no outside influence, and tell them to develop a close range fighting system, out of nessecity, they would need the following:
1-narrow, close stance, protecting the groin, and vitals,while maintaining movable root,quick mobility
2-elbows in,concave chest, chin tucked,to protect the vital targets
3-touch bridge sensitivity/reaction, as at thhis range, you are in contact with your opponent's bridge most likely-eyes,brain,reaction cannot occur at this range
4-most likely some sort of "iron body" strike absorbtion
5-short power,inch power, shock power,scared power
6-specialized hand-fung-an choy,geurng ji kuen,biu,jow,etc needed for striking vital points-penetration of such, with above delivery system
7-a shorter,miserly breathing pattern, based on 4,5,and 6

That being said, what will you have? How can anything else have been developed? Yes, there are different flavours, but these core concepts are the ties that bind us all together. We are more similar than different.

(I didn't know fish had balls:-)

[Ozzy Dave]

Hi Eric, no way are you alone on this.

This is a way of appreciating things, having respectful dialog between practitioners and learning. We learn our Gung Fu with our hands, we express it with our hands, and if we want to learn more we show respect with our mouth to all others in Wu Lin.

It’s what I picked up from my Teachers in Singapore. This is also how you touch hands and learn - safely. If you want to learn you have to “eat” someone’s Kung Fu not find intellectual ways of belittling it or putting yourself forward.

Gung Fu is "Art" as you can only appreciate art not compare. As soon as you compare there's only one way to settle it.

Really, I think if practitioners talk in terms of comparison, you’re better off not talking at all as such conversations invariably end up coming to a heated stale mate with each practitioner trying to convince another, who’s not going to shift their ground anyway, that they are right or that their method is more correct, true to the source, refined, blah, blah, blah. I believe the Cantonese have a nice expression for this – “Talking down the cow’s horn”, it comes to nothing.

We learn with our hands, when we talk here on the board we can get pointers to go out and test with our hands and you Eric, have provided many and I thank you but we can’t “learn” anything until we do that.

I guess, basically, I’m just a bit wary of what I think I know, as I do know, that my body will only do what it really “knows” and no more. :D

So for me Flavour is the best term to talk about the way styles express themselves. You can get a taste from the forms but it only really gets interesting when you touch hands.

Ten Tigers

I agree with you, but the Flavour of a style and its development from a root or "master sauce" (yep, I like cooking) is a bit different from its characteristics be they similar or different. Its like a life story you can kind of touch down the ages and it takes time to develop. This is why I don’t do MMA cause its kind of like eating nothing but plain rice porridge - keeps you going and does the job but there’s that and more in TCMA.

Don’t get me wrong I think we all need to put the gloves on and get a bit of porridge. I just appreciate all the side dishes that come with TCMA as well, including the fish balls. I’m a greedy b@$tard.

[Ozzy Dave]

Ok, I'm done philosophising

So in the interest of continuing on in the theme of the thread I'd like to ask everyone what you think of this.

To me, Wing Chun has more of Hakka flavour than Crane - what does anyone else think?

[SevenStar]

DNA:

With regards to the wai gong aspects lets think of dna in this way.

Human 1: conditions his muscles with dip gwat gong from south mantis
Human 2: conditions his muscles with snake slide caccon from emei
Human 3: conditions his muscles with weight lifting from the gym

The result will be a different """Texture""" to the muscle. When each person does there thing it will look the same but produce a different result on the end do to the conditioned Texture of the practitioner.

There is are only so many ways to move or twist the body. The way we condition it and deliver it make the major differences.


please explain this in greater detail

[Eric Ling]

Hi everybody,

“1-narrow, close stance, protecting the groin, and vitals,while maintaining movable root,quick mobility
2-elbows in,concave chest, chin tucked,to protect the vital targets
3-touch bridge sensitivity/reaction, as at thhis range, you are in contact with your opponent's bridge most likely-eyes,brain,reaction cannot occur at this range
4-most likely some sort of "iron body" strike absorbtion
5-short power,inch power, shock power,scared power
6-specialized hand-fung-an choy,geurng ji kuen,biu,jow,etc needed for striking vital points-penetration of such, with above delivery system
7-a shorter,miserly breathing pattern, based on 4,5,and 6”

Hahahaha, this forum is full of high hands…

Cannot argue with you on the above.

Rik, you , more or less, encapsulated most features for close fighting.

I could add :-

Chin –na/suppressing
Throwing/groundworks
Bridge-breaking – taking out opponent’s body weapons

But then again, not all styles employ everything.

Some specialize in one or configuration of a few of the above methodologies.

To me, the permutation is endless considering that we are only limiting ourselves within the scope we define. Some styles are combo of both North and South elements and that open up the premises.

I like the way Dave put it. CKF is ART and as in any art, there are no predeterminations or absolutes.

To accurately say 2 arts are similar; not only in texture but also elemental components, would mean understanding both “porridges”.

Can anyone here honestly say that they have that capability?

You never know until you do, to quote Dave.

Dave, we say “renowned Sifus produce adept students”; who is your Sifu in Singapore ?

Warmest Regards.

Eric

Rik, fish balls are meatballs using fish for ingredient. See I told you folks words get in the way….

[ironox]

Ok, I'm done philosophising

So in the interest of continuing on in the theme of the thread I'd like to ask everyone what you think of this.

To me, Wing Chun has more of Hakka flavour than Crane - what does anyone else think? Hello Dave , Have you seen Eric Vids on Fan Zhuang and shaolin hakka mantis?, These are hakka styles but have similar techs to crane and in body posture, what we refer to hakka in the west is the concept from lung ying , bak mei and the chu gar , juklum, iron ox ETC body shapes, but this is not exaustable. We all can get the same food ingrediants but the way we cook and the outcome of the taste and look of the dish is very different.

This is interesting stuff ,

Hopefully Eric i will see you in May will be there 25th may onwards. Carlsburg in hand.

sean

[Eric Ling]

Hi Sean,

Will know my schedule after my Singapore/West Malaysia trip next week.

Besides the Carlsberg, I would love to set up my cameras and shoot the 2 of us playing ....

Plus setting you up to meet some of the Hakka Masters in Kuching.

Happy Gawai to you and your family my friend.

Cheers.

Warmest Regards.

[Ozzy Dave]

Hi Sean,

Yep I’ve seen Eric’s Vids on the Hakka Styles – Frankly, I’m blown away with the diversity. Sarawak has a large Hakka population and the breadth of their styles is to be treasured. Eric is a lucky guy.

I agree with you that the region from which an Art hails is very important in how it develops. Most of the Hakka Arts in the West are to my knowledge out of Hong Kong but the main Hakka areas are way further north in Guandong like Mo Yen (Mei Xian), which is way closer to Fujian than HK. In fact I think they are even closer to Bai He country like Yong Chun than HK!

However I’m more talking about the general attributes of what make a style or maybe more appropriately the signature for a group of styles within a theme not specific lines within styles. For instance I’ve seen Bai He from Chow An that looks to me a lot more like a Hakka Art than Bai He from further north but the Bai He signature is still there.

I can see the similarity between Bai He with the Hakka Arts but the general feeling I get from the Hakka styles is one of pressing power often applied from the inside with the running hands type technique – you know its often commented that Hakka Masters are well known for their speed and penetrating power which is something of a requirement for working the inside door. This to me seems more in tune with Wing Chun but I suppose it could just be parallel development, where as the Bai He I’ve seen tends to work the outside gate a lot more, not exclusively I must add.

I’d like to say these statements are not absolutes and it’s quite apparent that all three arts are well related at some level along with a range of other styles. For instance Tai Chor Kun, (Tai Tzu Quan) and Bai He often work off each other in terms of technique in fact the little Bai He I’ve learnt is I’m quite sure, a mix of Bai He and Tai Chor.

Eric,

I appreciate the kind words, though I haven't learnt any where near enough to deserve being called adept the Teacher I have learnt the most from in Singapore is Tan Eng Hock, he is my Sao Lim Sifu.

Cheers and beers

Dave

[Hendrik]

I can see the similarity between Bai He with the Hakka Arts but the general feeling I get from the Hakka styles is one of pressing power often applied from the inside with the running hands type technique – you know its often commented that Hakka Masters are well known for their speed and penetrating power which is something of a requirement for working the inside door. This to me seems more in tune with Wing Chun but I suppose it could just be parallel development, where as the Bai He I’ve seen tends to work the outside gate a lot more, not exclusively I must add.



Dave,


Good idea.

1,
HOw do you see the power generation of Hakka and White Crane and WCK in common or different? This will give lots of signature. how is hakka generate the power?

2,
As for the inside door and speed, IMHO, depend on which lineage of WCK. Is it the WCK 150 years ago or today's WCK that has to be look at closely. IMHO

Best Regards
Hendrik

[Ozzy Dave]

Hey Hendrick,

I’ve read some of your stuff over on wingchunkuen.com – high level my friend though I must admit I don't understand much of it and since you’re my senior in Sao Lim I don’t know what I could say to clarify anything for you i.e. talk at the same level.

I understand your point on where you take the reference for Wing Chun - now or 150 years ago. Its most definitely changed but that happens to all arts just look at the variation in Sao Lim and there are still first generation lay Masters teaching. Maybe 150 years ago there was not enough "Wing Chun" Flavour to mark Wing Chun as anything other than a line in Bai He.

But like I said in posts above this is natural and a special thing about TCMA. I’m asking from the Wing Chun perspective of now and I must say I don’t have enough experience in the other arts to fully and specifically answer your question re: “power generation”. I suppose its that I see the sinking type geng used to shock and disrupt the opponents structure in Wing Chun and I'm looking for that taste. I see it more in the Hakka Arts than Bai He where it appears Sinking is used more for control of the opponent's structure. Any way that's why I threw out the question - to get more insight on just this point.

Comparing Flavour is more a question for me on what tactics an Art uses rather than the specific power generation method. I kind of see this area as more open to variation by individual Masters according to their experiences. For instance Bai He has lots of Chin Na and you can see it in the way the stance is drilled i.e. stepping methods, very specific criteria for execution, etc all pointing at the stability of the structure for the task at hand.

But what if you were a bit useless at chin na, would you abandon your training? Don’t think so. Then you may have an adaptation and the criteria for the stance may change a bit to emphasise linear rather than turning speed, say Bu Ding Bu Ba, and you may use the sinking energy for shocking more than control – that’s kind of how I see the specifics of power generation - its dependant on the tactics used and the stepping and body method will follow accordingly.


Kind Regards

Dave

[Hendrik]

Hi Dave,


I’ve read some of your stuff over on wingchunkuen.com – high level my friend though I must admit I don't understand much of it .--------D

I am just day dream sometimes, so nothing high level. and day dream is difficult to comprehend .. hahaha



and since you’re my senior in Sao Lim I don’t know what I could say to clarify anything for you i.e. talk at the same level. --------D


since we are from the same Chan lineage, You know, to be honest, I dont believe in level differentiation. what I believe is about describing what we see in our own level. That way, everything is the truth.

For example, a kinder garden child describe about how colorfull is thier classroom. and that is perfect, we know they are describing the truth in thier way and with thier passionate vibes.

Then, we grow older, we try to be better and start to speculate that got us into trouble. As in Chinese it said, it is no longer Choon Tze or pure real. We dont even buy our own interpretation sometimes but we just reason ourself to buy it based on logic and wanting approval of others....etc.

Those are the practice got us into trouble.

Thus, just present what we see, nothing right nothing wrong. and what we see is the truth, similar to how the kinder garden child. The rest about senior junior...level.. title... doesnt matter.

It is Chan or Zen teaching from our sujo, " as it is -- that's it." Or in madarin "Tang Xia Jiu Sze" ( this instant is it)







I understand your point on where you take the reference for Wing Chun - now or 150 years ago. Its most definitely changed but that happens to all arts just look at the variation in Sao Lim and there are still first generation lay Masters teaching.

Maybe 150 years ago there was not enough "Wing Chun" Flavour to mark Wing Chun as anything other than a line in Bai He. ---------



Just to share with you my view:



This is a difficult topic which might have a lots of "if" isnt it? However, it is actually not that difficult. IMHO.



Say, in the eighties, the wing chun movie the prodigal son

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RLgBZAr9-o

the action director was trying to convey the characteristics of Wing Chun from the eyes of WCK senior (as I have heard ) such as GM Jiu or the student of GM Yip Man.

There in the clip we could see an image of What WCK is like in thier mind's eye.


Now,

Look at the clip of Bo Suk which Eric took. Bo Suk is a third generation from Red Boat actor Cho Soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH5V5wjFAcI



If we study the two clips, we will see, there is a common denominator there which is the Sticky taste. or the Mai San Ciim or Close body reeling/Sticking type of "taste". That is the taste of WCK.



From these two lineages, one is from Hong Kong which is a fast develop area where lots of influence by outside country will take place , and one is in PG where the development pace is much slower and less influence by outside community.

As in the chinese historian said, if one would like to see what is the older practice, then check it out in the village which has less influence by the outside.

Thus, we know. what is the "Wing Chun" Flavour to mark Wing Chun."


however, if you take today's WCK clip from say year 2000 HongKong or USA. Then, there might not be the Sticking taste any more but replace by rapid fire to the center line type of Flavour. thus we know, Localization Evolution has been taking place. and the "sticky flavour" is fading or even no longer there. or even there are Western Boxing influence. and those are all right. it is about Localization evolution as needed for the art to survive under different condition of the area and the people who practice it.




Now, Saying these above, So what make WCK WCK different with Bai He Yong Chun?

in my observation,

Well, from Yik Kam lineage, based on the kuen kuit passed down from Yik Kam

One of the core component in Siu Liem Tao is 單朝阳 and <方七娘白鶴拳十五勢>，就載有 : [跌、砍拳...招陽、......]十五個勢法，並注明如何動作及攻防意義之所在。.......這十五個勢應為當時最早見之於拳譜中的勢法， 當是當時所傳教的。

比如十五勢拳譜中所寫： [招 (昭) 陽。白鶴拳法之五：凡拳起手，只要招 (昭)陽，無論他用何勢，可用此勢，大門放過，小門直入。蓋此勢兩手顧鼻面，短牙顧中攔切，戒分 腳退後。]......。
沉肩、墜肘、坐腕成「昭陽手」，分成三節，肩至肘為內節(根節)，肘關節為中節，腕關節為尾節，要做到內節 如鐵一般堅實，與肩身成一整體；中節吞墜，尾節如膠如漆，靈活多變。雙手來去出力發勁，出手時吐氣(吐)， 收手時吸氣(吞)，一吞一吐互相配合無間，堅持「中門不讓，子午不離」。練習時與肩、頭、背、胯、膝要貫串 一氣，互相呼應，如有橡筋互相牽引、拉扯，吞肩坐節(墜肘)，發胛力，勁達指尖。出手時節中隨身與胯同向， 不可縮入開出，手節對膝，承接全身各處之力。




So, if we look at all the above description of 昭陽, one thing surface. There is a "snake" like flavour got fuse in and that is what in WCK which is different then the mother Bai He Yong Chun. So, there is an evolution here. Evolution on 昭陽勢法 to have "snake" flavour.



Now, in the legend, it is said that Miu Soon fuse the Bai he and his own art to create Siu Lien Tau, and we know for sure in today's Yik Kam's SLT kuen kuit that the kuen kuit had the Stanza from the Emei 12 zhuang which is famous in the Snake slide worm moves type of characteristics.



Thus, we know very likely what it is WCK of Yik Kam's lineage150 years ago in Yik Kam's time on board of the Red Boat.



In additional, we could also predict that, when the Snake type of training and power generation DNA is fading, then the art will default into White Crane Yong Chun like.

However, if the one hand Kau Kuan (fujian) or dealling and One hand strike core on center line characteristics of White Crane mother is further lost, then the art will further evolve into other type of art.. such as CLF or Hung Gar... that we could predict that is a likely track for Penang or Singapore's Yik Kam Ban Jong WCK on the past 20 years and years to come.

Thus, IMHHHO, we know it if we just Observe instead of speculate.




Comparing Flavour is more a question for me on what tactics an Art uses rather than the specific power generation method. ..... that’s kind of how I see the specifics of power generation - its dependant on the tactics -------D


Sure, specifics of power generation - its dependant on the tactics

For me,

Flavour/application/Tactics and specific power generation method all these components have to be there work hand in hand to make a wholistic uniqueness , instead of breaking and viewing each individual components which often lost its meaning. because 1 +1 often is not 2 but zero or 3 or ....etc

however, there is a main power generation theme eventhought there would be some room for evolution. outside of this main power generation theme, the art is evolve to the point of no longer same the art. IMHO.




finally, you dont have to be agree with me. I am just presenting my observation as it's.




Best Regards
Hendrik

[TenTigers]

two things-
one-posting the kuen kuit in chinese only leaves everyone else out of the conversation, other than one or two others. Please translate.

two-if WCK originally had snake flavor, I find this interesting as in Jook Lum, there is said Chung Yel Jung was the Poison Snake, and the jl hands are often referred to as poison snake hands.
I know of one extremely skilled, powerful Yip Man line WCK player who trains with my Jook Lum teacher.When my teacher asked him,"Your skill is very good, why learn from me?" his reply was, "I want to learn your hand", meaning the snake quality of the JL hand.
just food for thought

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Eric!


I understand what your saying and I agree with you that the difference are found in the little things.

Gotta run right now!

Work!

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


two-if WCK originally had snake flavor, I find this interesting as in Jook Lum, there is said Chung Yel Jung was the Poison Snake, and the jl hands are often referred to as poison snake hands.
I know of one extremely skilled, powerful Yip Man line WCK player who trains with my Jook Lum teacher.When my teacher asked him,"Your skill is very good, why learn from me?" his reply was, "I want to learn your hand", meaning the snake quality of the JL hand.
just food for thought

Jook Lum has the Duk Sae Gwun: Poison Snake gwun

Jook Lum's hands have their own quality to them. No doubt!

Gotta run!

[Eric Ling]

Hi everybody,

Brother Hendrik,

Just to confirm; “Zhao Yang Shou” refers to “Yang Palm” like in a “tan sao”?

And how do you interpret “letting go the front door and entering directly through the small door”? (2nd stanza 2nd line)

I noticed that the kuit talks about 3 sections of the “Zhao Yang” , can I then infer that this is a long bridge using 3 joints jing?

Bro, this kuit is taken from a particular Wing Chun lineage?

Dave, your Hakka/Wing Chun perception, imho, is really a matter of perspective.

“I can see the similarity between Bai He with the Hakka Arts but the general feeling I get from the Hakka styles is one of pressing power often applied from the inside with the running hands type technique – you know its often commented that Hakka Masters are well known for their speed and penetrating power which is something of a requirement for working the inside door. This to me seems more in tune with Wing Chun but I suppose it could just be parallel development, where as the Bai He I’ve seen tends to work the outside gate a lot more, not exclusively I must add.

I’d like to say these statements are not absolutes and it’s quite apparent that all three arts are well related at some level along with a range of other styles. For instance Tai Chor Kun, (Tai Tzu Quan) and Bai He often work off each other in terms of technique in fact the little Bai He I’ve learnt is I’m quite sure, a mix of Bai He and Tai Chor.”


Through my lenses, I see all the Wing hands, palms/fingers works and elbow as “White Crane”. And you are right, not all Cranes work the outside gate. I think most are evenly balanced out.

The connection between Tai Chor and White Crane runs much deeper than most think.

I will let 2 experts talk about this; one here in Penang, Master Ong Choon Seng and Singapore’s GM Teo Choon Teck.

Warmest Regards.

Eric

Ps writing this in Penang. At least this time, I am in a hotel with wi-fi in every room …….

[brothernumber9]

why does no one, perhaps other than Ten Tigers, want to address the regional, and I mean specific, regional influences on styles?

Styles that come from, that have been propogated from northern China, even very old traditional styles like Tai Tzu and Hua, and even some muslim styles have similarities that are evident. I don't know enough about them and similar looking systems, to know if they ever converged on the same area or region for a time.

However, look at an area like Toisan, and concerning "southern" fist which the topic was origianlly directed, you have sifu like Chung Yel Jung, Henry Poo Yee, Tai Yim, Chan Tai San, and a host of others that originally came out of what in effect, is a "neighborhood" area. At the very least, from what I gather in my limited exposure to especially "southern" CMA is that the outlook to fighting, philosophies and theories are intertwined. I beleive these men thought very much alike. I think this alludes to the vacuum analogy Ten Tigers was taking about, in that people unattached by very few or no threads at all, because of their environment, would develop similar foundations on basics of what they used to develop their own independent fighting ideals.

The styles of the sifu mentioned above are very distinct, but I belevie the threads of the commonalities, make them more similar than different.

[Hendrik]

Eric siheng,

Just to confirm; “Zhao Yang Shou” refers to “Yang Palm” like in a “tan sao”? ------ E


IMHO, since I am not the TRUE white Crane expert with lineage transmission.


“Zhao Yang Shou is Not pure yang since it is 坐腕 成「昭陽手.
It is closer in general to today's WCK's Jong Sau or Man Sau or slightly slander Man sau..(depend on lineage). In Yik Kam lineage, as in the Kuen Kuit, it is still called 昭陽.

This 昭陽手 is more than a hand but a 勢法 . This 昭陽 is popular in pre 1800's White Crane as I have learn/heard from White Crane old timer when I investigate on it. Thus, since this term appear in Yik Kam's Kuen kuit, we know the Yik Kam kuen kuit is likely to be compose pre or around 1800.






And how do you interpret “letting go the front door and entering directly through the small door”? (2nd stanza 2nd line)------ E


IMHO,

It is as in WCK said, Yi Shan Wei Chin Doan Poh Chang or using avert as forwarding Short broke the Long.

This way it satisfied both the 大門放過，小門直入 and 「中門不讓，子午不離」.

Thus, it is also echo one of the Yik Kam's lineage uniqueness, slant enter the front gate.






I noticed that the kuit talks about 3 sections of the “Zhao Yang” , can I then infer that this is a long bridge using 3 joints jing? -------E


IMHO

It is about the description of how the 3 section being handle and also more detail is further describe --- 肘關節為中節，腕關節為尾節，要做到內節 如鐵一般堅實，與肩身成一整體；中節吞墜，尾節如膠如漆...

The ancestor really goes into very detail to descrip it so it is not up for Interpretation. This is a pattern of classical formal Chinese writting which is always come with details description.


However, this above description from mother white crane is more a flexible 3 section staffs and not fit well into the WCK "snake" or Energized Water sleeve type of description .

There The Emei 12 Zhuang's Snake slide worm move comes into picture in Yik Kam's SLT kuen kuit. which involve in the futher refinement of Shen, Yee, and using the Qi and Mai.... based on the mother crane platform.


That is what I think Miu Soon the creator of SLT did as he said he did before his death bed . He told Yim Yee " the art I passed to you is no longer the white crane which Ng Mui had taught me. I fuse it with my own art."

So, we know where the evolution is, it is a soft White Crane which refine the Inch Jing join force to whip like water sleeve which could transform into Inch Jing Join force if needed.



Thus, when the snake slide worm move type of Kung Fa or technology is missing in the SLt, it will default back to white crane inch jing join power.


Furthermore, it is also need to define what is Snake into detail, fuzzy concept of snake could mean lots of different things.



Just my opinion.

Best Regards
Hendrik

[Jim Roselando]

Poison Snake Hand/Jook Lum?


When I think of Snake in Wing Chun I think in terms of the Body (& its Conditioning) and what Binds the movements together. In terms of movement linking how does the hands or moves transition or flow. Jook Lum has a springy/sticky flex feel to its hand but uses the gather/release bow flex. The Duk Sae Gwun is very nice as it Sharp Flicks/Send energy to Tip set. Very similar to the Dim (point) precision power in the mantis hand. Maybe this is why they nickname his hand a poison snake? Hand like weapon/Weapon like hand. Now, Look at Emei Shr Zhuang action/movements. Notice the Snake linking the sets/moves together. Look for the Snake Hand/Silk Worm Palm signature. So, when thinking of Snake/Crane it think: Snake Body/Crane Boxing. Jook Lum has more classical Gather Release system.

Examine the Jook Lum headmaster. First after the lion dancing:

Circa 1963: Jook Lum South Mantis: GM Lum Sang/Students

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4gf97u1mhg

A pretty standard Som Bo Gin:

Som Bo Gin (Jook Lum): Jack Man, Louie Sifu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LLjm...elated&search=

Notice how they Gather and Release the Short Shock!

Below is Emei Shr Zhuang headmaster writing on the difference between Chinese systems:

“Of the three major orthodox Qi Gong systems in China, the Shaolin and Wudang systems mainly emphasize the martial arts forms; Emei Qigong emphasizes healing, internal self-cultivation of Qi (energy) and cleansing one's heart so that one's true nature and latent abilities can emerge”.

Wing Chun has a famous Kuen Kuit:

Kuen Yau Sum Faat; Fist shoots from Heart!

[TenTigers]

The poison snake hand of Chung Yel Jung's SPM is referring to the "aliveness" of the hand, similar to how Fillippino blade fighters refer to the blade/hand as a snake, writhing,twisting,slithering in and around to strike. You grab the wrist, the hand still twists and strikes with the blade, likewise the SPM hand comes in at angles,finding small holes in the defenses, and when it comes in contact with an opposing force, simply changes direction and adapts. The hand is alive in and of itself.

[Eric Ling]

Hi every body,

Brother Hendrik,

“Zhao Yang” I think is really more a Yong Chun White Crane or pre-Fuzhou Cranes terminology.

From the kuit, especially the “sitting the wrist”, however, makes me think of “standing palm” or “Li Chang” or “single praying hand”.

For me the biggest differentiation between Yong Chun and say Fuzhou Ancestral Crane is the concept of “movement”.

If I take “Zhao Yang” as a reference, Yong Chun would come across as very
”Wing Chun” in their expression.

Whereas, Fuzhou Crane, would “flow” this hand like water. Maybe it's the "water" and not the "snake" that you should be zooming in?

Bro, any way of sending me this whole kuit … did it mention “Wu Xing” anywhere?

You are right, to analyze, we got to go back to root concepts and not interpretations.

And I need to look at original kuits … a lot of translations leave out key substances.

Not forgetting that many kuits were written phonetically in Fujian of Fuzhou and translating them from the Mandarin is gibberish.

Bro, be patient.

The truth is never easy……

With respect

Eric

[Hendrik]

Eric Siheng,


“Zhao Yang” I think is really more a Yong Chun White Crane or pre-Fuzhou Cranes terminology. -----E

Yup, that is also what I heard from Hong Kong's white crane elder.






From the kuit, especially the “sitting the wrist”, however, makes me think of “standing palm” or “Li Chang” or “single praying hand”. -----E

a parallel Kuit within the Yik Kam's SLT kuen kuit is

Li Chang Chi Chou Dan Zhao Yang (mandarin )

or

Standing Palm, erect elbow, single Zhao Yang.

that is how close it is to the old Yong Chun White Crane term. hahaha



For me the biggest differentiation between Yong Chun and say Fuzhou Ancestral Crane is the concept of “movement”. ------ E

Agree!




If I take “Zhao Yang” as a reference, Yong Chun would come across as very
”Wing Chun” in their expression.

Whereas, Fuzhou Crane, would “flow” this hand like water. Maybe it's the "water" and not the "snake" that you should be zooming in? --------E


actually, I dont Zooming in, the kuit from Yik Kam has everything needed in details. After the Zhao Yang Got decoded decades ago, and then the other part of Yik Kam kuit also got decoded because we found the other parent-- the Emei 12 Zhuang, and similar to there are special term such as Zhao Yang of white crane we could pin point 20/20 to the Emei kuit and term.

In addition, with your clip on Chong Jing, I would say that the Yik kam lineage is using a different type of power generation eventhought they both intent to generate the whip like power. IMHO


in additional, it is snake because it support Recoil sticking and/ or sickle after a move is executed, so it is similar to the water sleeve, it never stop but continous to warp.....

IMHo, This characteristics is very different then say water hand, flip and terminated.

Beside, this is also fit what the old legend of Crane and snake become WCK. IMHo





Bro, any way of sending me this whole kuit … did it mention “Wu Xing” anywhere?-------E


If you meet Ku ask a copy from him, I passed him my sifu's copy years ago. that will be the safest and you recieve a legitimate copy from a Cho family decendent. instead a pirate one. IMHO.


IMHHO,

These Kuit stuffs, needs to be return to China incase the culture revolution has destroyed the mother copy in China. also, I think it is great to return one copy to Yong Chun or the Mothers' home so that they know we never forget the root. as the chinese tradition goes " drink the water and remember the source. "


As for Wu Xing.

no Wu Xing but Tun Tuh (suck spit).

So, as you know this also point to a time period of when the SLT is likely created.





You are right, to analyze, we got to go back to root concepts and not interpretations. ------E

Yup.

and luckily that it is only 150 years away from the Red boat, so we still could keep some signature which pointing at the direction.

IMHO, it is beyond interpretation and it is about, can one do it? if the theory and the process match then the uniqueness will surface effortlessly.


so contradict to some might think about intepretating and everything is ok for personal intepretation, Nope, IMHO, it needs transmission otherwise there are certain things one just dont know.



And I need to look at original kuits … a lot of translations leave out key substances. ------E


Completely Agree!

Kuit itself is also not edequate, one needs to know the set perform in a proper way. Then, one will see, IMHO.

IMHO, it is like a lock needs a combination code to turn open it.





Not forgetting that many kuits were written phonetically in Fujian of Fuzhou and translating them from the Mandarin is gibberish. ----E


We have found out certain Yik Kam's WCK term is fujian.

For example,

1, the huen sau in cantonese, people think it is cycle hand. however, it is actually Hian Ciu in Fujian, Hian as the flip or flip in flip open the wok cover.

2, Also, in Yik Kam lineage, there is a two men set called Chi Sau Loong. for decades people dont know what is the Loong means and doesnt make much sense in cantonese.


So, what is loong means? hahaha, see in Fujian we called lion dance as Boo Long Sai. that loong in Chi Sau loong is actualy the Long of Boo Long Sai. hahaha.






Bro, be patient. -----E


Yup, this is the truth you speak of.





The truth is never easy……----E


Agree,


I told Late GM Cho Hong-Choy we hit the jack port and show him the Emei kuit .... hahaha. He must be thinking " this teenager just gone wild. " hahaha, but then , he is very supportive and share even more.


these verifying stuffs is also very seductive.

Say, Jim here, after I show him the Snake, he went as far as meeting the Emei 12 Zhuang's gate holder to verify first hand on the Snake.

Then, I have another friend who I share with in my university time, he also went to the Gate Holder of Emei to verify a few sets of the Emei 12 zhuang and got instruction first hand.

So, we know how things fit in. eventhought we might not have the depth of the Kung Fu. But the direction is certain.

our goal decades ago among my many friends I have shared with is to activate the 12 proper medirians and 8 special medirians. That is because only with those type of basic, one could follow the instruction of the Yik Kam Kuen Kuit to experience what is Yik Kam's SLT is about in term of direct experience.





so, today, IMHO, for my lineage, we are certain what is it and what depth it needs to turn on and re-evoke the enginee of SLT with all these details we had found.

as the set Siu Lien Tao or the essence of detail training. it is lots of details and details are very seductive. the more one knows about it the beautifull it is.


Very seductive as the old song.



Windflowers, my father told me not to go near them, he feared them always,
Said they carried him away.

Windflowers, I couldn't wait to touch them, to smell them, I held them closely.
Now I cannot break away.

Their sweet bouquet disappears like a vapor in the desert. Take a warning, son.

Windflowers, their beauty captures every young dreamer who lingers near them.
Ancient windflowers, I love you.




Just some thought for tonight. Dont take me serious. hahaha. just as entertainment on what I have post.

I truely hope more people from SEA share as much details as possible. that way we could preserve as much as possible. IMHO, within next 10 years if we dont preserve, lots will lost because the world has changed so fast and using the new era logic is not going to be able to comprehend what happen in the past as easy as us. Thus, we are at the edge of lossing art big time if we dont preserve it before all those senior of 60 to 80 years old passed away. IMHO.


This will be my last sharing post for now.


With respect and Appreciate your sharing!

Hendrik

[Ozzy Dave]

Hi Eric,

Yep, I agree it’s totally a question of perspective. It’s how it looks from my corner of the woods, at the moment, but I’m after food for thought.

"Through my lenses, I see all the Wing hands, palms/fingers works and elbow as “White Crane”. "

Cheers, I’m getting a little jade for what might be a brick. :)

Hendrick,

Thanks for the feedback, there’s plenty of food for thought there.

I’m kind of careful when it comes to kuen kuit as for me in TCMA I try to not “think” I know something if I haven’t been shown in a tactile way at some level. Further, I often don’t have the cultural frames of reference to do them (kuit) justice as from the little I do know they can have many shades of meaning.

I haven’t been exposed to enough lines of Wing Chun from a training perspective to say I agree or disagree but I don’t have any issue with what you’re saying.

I can say that having already watched Eric’s clip sighted in your post:-

"Look at the clip of Bo Suk which Eric took. Bo Suk is a third generation from Red Boat actor Cho Soon."

I've some understanding now as to really why the fook sao in Saam Bai Fut goes forward.

Cheers to you both

Dave