Paul Lam and Joseph Cheng

[Vajramusti]

Attn: For Chisaoking. Admittedly-hearsay.

Paul Lam who was Hakka began to do well in chicken supply business to restaurants first in the UK- expanded to the main continent but business ran into trouble with extortion hoods- from what I understand.
He had polio as a child but compensated for it with good hands-in chi sao and gor sao. He began with Leung Shun-if memory serves.

Some rivalry with Lee Sing and his protege Cheng.
The latter went to become a royal body gyard for the Saudis. Later "disappeared" in the PRC.Lee Sing began wc froma different line but did some Ip man wing chun as well.
Both Lam and Cheng tested their skills "against" resisting opponents".<g>..without any advice from posters on forums.

joy chaudhuri

[t_niehoff]

Attn: For Chisaoking. Admittedly-hearsay.

Paul Lam who was Hakka began to do well in chicken supply business to restaurants first in the UK- expanded to the main continent but business ran into trouble with extortion hoods- from what I understand.
He had polio as a child but compensated for it with good hands-in chi sao and gor sao. He began with Leung Shun-if memory serves.

Some rivalry with Lee Sing and his protege Cheng.
The latter went to become a royal body gyard for the Saudis. Later "disappeared" in the PRC.Lee Sing began wc froma different line but did some Ip man wing chun as well.
Both Lam and Cheng tested their skills "against" resisting opponents".<g>..without any advice from posters on forums.

joy chaudhuri

Have you seen the video clip of the aiki master who claimed to have over 300 streetfights (were they resisting opponents?), claimed that Pride wouldn't let him fight because he was so dangerous, and offered a nice sum of money to anyone who could fight and defeat him? Did you see the low-level MMA fighter destroy him?

Yeah, yeah, yeah . . . all these great fighters, all the stories, never with names, never with evidence, never on tape, etc. What is it that comes out of a bull's rectum? Stories of great fighters, never with names, never with evidence, never on tape, etc.

[Vajramusti]

Tis indeed a pity that neither one of these gentlemen in the 1960s videotaped themselves for the viewing pleasures of one or two of the forums frequent posters. Sackcloth and ashes for them....

[Knifefighter]

Tis indeed a pity that neither one of these gentlemen in the 1960s videotaped themselves for the viewing pleasures of one or two of the forums frequent posters. Sackcloth and ashes for them....

Maybe you could do so, since they weren't able to.
You're a WC master, I believe.

Why don't you do a brief clip of some fighting or sparring full contact so we might see how WC can be applied against a resisting opponent?

This would be a great example of how someone who has been doing WC for decades actually uses it.

You know, as much as I give Victor a hard time, I definitely give him tons of credit for being almost the only WC master to have the confidence to show clips of him going full contact against resisting opponents.

Is there any other WC master out there who has the confidence in his abilities to do this?

Alan Orr comes to mind, but other than that.... methinks not.

[anerlich]

I've seen a fair few vids of my instructor, Rick Spain's, ring fights.

Casting such pearls before the self-appointed anti-theoretician forum police swine ("pigs" was never more appropriate a moniker than in this context), squealing demands for "evidence" for claims neither he nor I made, would be a waste.

As he's trained, and still does regularly, with long time non-traditional MAers of the first order like head of BJJ Australia John Will, he has nothing to prove to those inconsequentials in the third and lower tiers such as those baying for video blood here.

Enjoy your day :p Better yet, get a life away from the keyboard and enjoy that.

[Knifefighter]

I've seen a fair few vids of my instructor, Rick Spain's, ring fights.
As he's trained, and still does regularly, with long time non-traditional MAers of the first order like head of BJJ Australia John Will, he has nothing to prove to those inconsequentials in the third and lower tiers such as those baying for video blood here.


Ah, yes... the old "nothing to prove, with nothing to show."

Funny how there are all these WC "masters" who supposedly had all these competitions, but only their students have ever seen the tapes of them ever fighting.

[chisauking]

Hiya, Joy:

Thanks for the reply, but it wasn't what I was looking for. As you may know, I love to visit my wing chun family all over the world, and on one of my trips I ended up chatting with Ng Wah Sum (one of Leung Sheung's senior students and fellow class mate with Paul Lam). We was just recounting happy memories of the 'good old wing chun days' and Paul Lam came into the conversation. He asked me whether I'd seen Paul in the UK, and said that nobody from his old class had heard from him in years. I tried to locate Paul, but nobody seems to know of his whereabouts in the past years....In regards to Joseph Cheung, he and Paul and Kan wah chit use to be in the same London wing chun scene in the early 70s, but it's also strange that noone has seen Joseph either in years.

I've just recovered enough from a torn finger ligiament\tendon to start training again, so I don't have much time to part-take in all the bickering that goes on here, but I do scan regulary for no reason other than I'm a wing chun nut.

Catch you soon.


Dale: in all probability, wing chun is a fable. I mean, no-one has seen any wing chun practitioner fight; there are no video clips to support wing chun people can fight, so it stands to reason wing chun isn't at all effective.........Why bother yourself with a bunch of self-deluding losers that practice girly chisau that have no realistic applications? Move on, my friend

[anerlich]

Funny how there are all these WC "masters" who supposedly had all these competitions, but only their students have ever seen the tapes of them ever fighting.

LOL, one of them got played at a pub a couple years ago where my school had a celebration ... there were a few of our BJJ and MMA buds there plus one girl's hubby who is a 4 time Aussie Kyokushin champion and finished in the top 16 at the recent world champs ... a bar full of non martial artists as well ... we made most of them sign NDA's but a few probably slipped through.

Why would he, I or anyone else here in Sydney bother convincing some Californian with a keyboard, who seems to have way too much time on his hands, of anything? Especially when he's repeatedly proved his mind is already made up, and for some reason repeatedly needs to remind everyone of the fact on a forum for an MA he thinks is a steaming pile?

Why do you bother, Dale?

[Vajramusti]

Maybe you could do so, since they weren't able to.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(( Knifefighter-I am not concerned about seeking approbation, your comments or
feeding your viewing pleasures or that of the other frequent poster on this thread.

I didnt have chisauking's contact info so the message was for him- see the title.
He has commented so the communication afaiac- is finished.

bye bye,

joy chaudhuri))

[jooerduo]

t_niehoff wrote...

Yeah, yeah, yeah . . . all these great fighters, all the stories, never with names, never with evidence, never on tape, etc.



Terence,

does the late Wong Shun Leung qualify as a wing chun fighter in your view, how about the knife scar above his eyes?

But since there's no videos of him fighting then I guess he isn't a fighter at all!

[Knifefighter]

LOL, one of them got played at a pub a couple years ago where my school had a celebration ... there were a few of our BJJ and MMA buds there plus one girl's hubby who is a 4 time Aussie Kyokushin champion and finished in the top 16 at the recent world champs ... a bar full of non martial artists as well ... we made most of them sign NDA's but a few probably slipped through.

LOL @ signing NDA's to watch old fight footage...

[anerlich]

LOL @ signing NDA's to watch old fight footage...

You DO realise I was joking ... ?

[t_niehoff]

I've seen a fair few vids of my instructor, Rick Spain's, ring fights.

Casting such pearls before the self-appointed anti-theoretician forum police swine ("pigs" was never more appropriate a moniker than in this context), squealing demands for "evidence" for claims neither he nor I made, would be a waste.

As he's trained, and still does regularly, with long time non-traditional MAers of the first order like head of BJJ Australia John Will, he has nothing to prove to those inconsequentials in the third and lower tiers such as those baying for video blood here.

Enjoy your day :p Better yet, get a life away from the keyboard and enjoy that.

No one here, that I know of, has criticized Rick Spain or anyone like Spain -- clearly that guy is a fighter, has fought, trains like a fighter, etc. And so he has developed good skills. He is an excellent example, in my view, of the best WCK has produced so far. Spain is not in the same category as people who have never fought/sparred anyone with significant skills, who don't train like fighters, etc. but believe they KNOW about what is good WCK (my question: how can they know?) or how to effectively train (how can they know what produces results?).

The point behind asking for evidence is that anyone can claim anything -- a perfect example is Hendrik's claims (EEGs and HRVs). So asking for evidence is the only way to discern whether certain practices are justified by results obtained.

And, btw, all martial arts are traditions and even the more modern fighting methods come from TMAs. I am not criticizing those methods, just their approach to training. (And I've seen some of Will's DVDs, and they are very good).

[t_niehoff]

t_niehoff wrote...

Yeah, yeah, yeah . . . all these great fighters, all the stories, never with names, never with evidence, never on tape, etc.


Terence,

does the late Wong Shun Leung qualify as a wing chun fighter in your view, how about the knife scar above his eyes?

But since there's no videos of him fighting then I guess he isn't a fighter at all!

I've got a couple of knife scars on my hands (both required stitches) -- what does that prove? ;)

Let me try to be clear: there have been people in WCK that were known as fighters, guys like Wong, Sum, Cheung, etc. I don't think anyone doubts these guys fought. There are even, in Wong's case, newspaper accounts of his challenge fights. There were also lots of people who claimed to fight.

But just because these people fought, and even won, doesn't mean they were all that good -- all it proves is that they were better than the people they fought. And if the people they fought were crap, how good did they need to be?

I think there is a tendency to idolize these guys as "fighting masters" but when we actually see footage from the legendary rooftop fights, we can see for ourselves that even the winning WCK fighter looks like crap. Sure the WCK guys won, but not because they were all that good, just that the other guy was worse. It was bad fighting bad; the less bad won!

Here's Wong "sparring"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwNUzW1M48w

Want to tell me what is particularly good about it?

So my point is that before we go off and draw conclusions based on stories or legends or whatever, let's see it for ourselves and base our conclusions on firsthand evidence.

[CFT]

Here's Wong "sparring"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwNUzW1M48w

Want to tell me what is particularly good about it?It's not even sparring. I don't suppose we know what the real context is? It's supposed to be on a film set with WSL against a stunt man/body double. It just looks like "playing about". I don't think we need to draw any more conclusions from it.

[t_niehoff]

It's not even sparring. I don't suppose we know what the real context is? It's supposed to be on a film set with WSL against a stunt man/body double. It just looks like "playing about". I don't think we need to draw any more conclusions from it.

Of course it isn't "real" sparring (they're not really hitting each other, for example), but even in 'play sparring' you can get some idea of how a person moves, their body mechanics, their technique, etc. Is that clip a good example of how a good fighter moves? If a good fighter were trying to demo their fighting method for a movie (what the clip was), is this what you'd expect?

The trouble is unless someone has some decent fighting experience themselves, how can they even answer? All they can do is compare that to what good fighters are doing or go ask some good fighters to look at it and give their opinions.

In the final analysis I'm saying let's not build these guys up into super heroes based on stories, legends, demos, etc.

[CFT]

... even in 'play sparring' you can get some idea of how a person moves, their body mechanics, their technique, etc. Is that clip a good example of how a good fighter moves? If a good fighter were trying to demo their fighting method for a movie (what the clip was), is this what you'd expect?

The trouble is unless someone has some decent fighting experience themselves, how can they even answer? All they can do is compare that to what good fighters are doing or go ask some good fighters to look at it and give their opinions.Well, I am a non-fighter, so you can disregard my comments if you wish. But since you have given me an opt-out (compare that to what good fighters are doing) then in this instance I would have to admit it doesn't compare well overall, but I think this is still down to the context.

1) I am not convinced that WSL was trying to demo his fighting method, so the intent is not there. He still looks like he is playing, and hence extending the photoshoot, rather than really trying to drop his "opponent."

2) I think he moves around his "opponent" well.

3) He does control his "opponent" at many points, but in places where they don't actually engage it looks a bit "slappy".

Can you tell me why you don't think much of the clip?

[gabe]

I've got a couple of knife scars on my hands (both required stitches) -- what does that prove? ;)

Let me try to be clear: there have been people in WCK that were known as fighters, guys like Wong, Sum, Cheung, etc. I don't think anyone doubts these guys fought. There are even, in Wong's case, newspaper accounts of his challenge fights. There were also lots of people who claimed to fight.

But just because these people fought, and even won, doesn't mean they were all that good -- all it proves is that they were better than the people they fought. And if the people they fought were crap, how good did they need to be?

I think there is a tendency to idolize these guys as "fighting masters" but when we actually see footage from the legendary rooftop fights, we can see for ourselves that even the winning WCK fighter looks like crap. Sure the WCK guys won, but not because they were all that good, just that the other guy was worse. It was bad fighting bad; the less bad won!

Here's Wong "sparring"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwNUzW1M48w

Want to tell me what is particularly good about it?

So my point is that before we go off and draw conclusions based on stories or legends or whatever, let's see it for ourselves and base our conclusions on firsthand evidence.

Any clips of Robert Chu sparring? Rolling with grapplers? Full resistance sparring?

[stuart w]

In particular to chisauking and vajramusti, my sifu, Bob Stevenson, was Paul Lam's first student in London. As a collective we have been trying to locate Paul for a few years now without much success. After the London school closed and Paul went into the restaurant business full time, as stated in previous posts contact has been lost.

Any information you may have would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[chisauking]

Ho, ho, ho, I think they may have been abducted by aliens, Stuart! No trace of them anywhere.

For the Londoners, it seems as though it was only yesterday that Paul Lam, Joseph Cheung, Nigel Fan, Eddie Yoeh, Dereck Jones, Paul Elston, etc, was still around. Sadly, Jones & Fan is no longer with us, Elston's gone to Russia, and Lam & Cheung is missing without trace!

[anerlich]

what does that prove?


That you talk too much?

[Fresh]

I've got a couple of knife scars on my hands (both required stitches) -- what does that prove? ;)

umm...maybe that you can't avoid confrontation?

[Edmund]

I've got a couple of knife scars on my hands (both required stitches) -- what does that prove? ;)


You can't peel an orange? :)

[Wong]

Maybe Joseph Lee can help. He is classmate mr. Cheng

http://www.josephleewingchun.com/JosephLee.jsp

[t_niehoff]

You can't peel an orange? :)


Hey, dude, that orange was fiesty! If I hadn't been wearing my kung fu slippers, I would have never fallen, and never got cut! Apparently Wong had a similar experience. Why don't they tell us the reality of peeling oranges with a knife when we start WCK? ;)