My impressions of Wing chun training so far

[ammocase]

Alright im a kickboxer first an foremost, second im a karateka, i recently took up wing chun, read up everything an anything on the style... now im training under moy yats ving tsun lineage, bust so far im a little dissapointed.

Heres why...

1-Many pac sao/ pac dar/ lop sao drills... i understand the meaning behind basics of pak sao an all that... so dont take advantage to sound smart an try to explain building up sensativity an strong fundamentals makes a stronger fighter in the future... point blank.. its boring. I honestly dont know how WC schools stay in bussiness with these boring day in an day out training routines.

2- Lack of fighting stances an moblity an striking drills other than chain punching an really low applications, so focused on forms an chi sao.. wheres the training for defense against knife attacks an mutliple opponents?

What my sifu says... "wait till later on... applications will come later on, not many applications but they will come later on..." ive seen the senior students... im not impressed, i honestly think i can beat everyones ass in that school.. am i failing to see something?

I mean dont get me wrong the style is amazing... but i just see a lot of holes in it. Anyone offereing to clarify things or add more to the pile of questions?

[PangQuan]

I have also recently started wing chun. i train under u.s. wing chun academy.

My past has been primarily kung fu, shaolin, northern longfist, and some souther tiger/crane.

im quite comfortable with flexability, various traditional stances, kicks high as well as low, throws/takedowns, punches, etc.

for me when i am practicing my wing chun, i am in dualities.

on one side of the coin i am trying to absorb the style to its tradition, this is the method i take for any thing i do.

on the other side i am searching through the wing chun arsenal to find elements that i find to be most effective and practicle and adapt myself to include any helpful things i find into my personal martial arts. the accumulation of everything i have learned.

for instance In each style that i have practiced, for each form there have been elements i have not focused my attention on to accept fully for this reason. though i may practice the style to take it all in, once i have commited the memory i wont do drills for every thing within the form other than what i want.

like any other style, standing on its own there will certainly be holes. for some styles there may be larger, or more frequent holes. respectively.

of course, if your not impressed with the senior students, perhaps you should ask for a bit more forcefull attention.

one of the things i have noticed about wing chun in particular, looks can be deceiving. the only way to test someones wing chun is to touch hands and see how they feel. this i noticed before i actually began my wing chun training. its one of the reasons i started, as well as the abilty wing chun has at solid structural infighting.

[drleungjohn]

If I may ask-whom in Moy Yat lineage are you studying under?

Having also come from that lineage,Lee Moy Shan- was a fighter with a background in Kempo and Southern Praying Mantis as well-so my class was a little different in format,structure,etc-

Moy Yat lineage in most cases is very heavy upfront with theory,drills etc-and while it is true the "good stuff" does come later-like Victor's example-get with friends and try it out-The lineage has it's share of good fighters who have fought for real,and not only in the ring-

Moy Yat lineage gives you the tools-but the creativity is up to you unfortunately,if you have the skills and talent to be creative-

Spar and try and do pak dar and see how it works for you,see where it fits-which punches will it work against-which won't-if not why not?

This system in many ways is really based on your own creativity and desire-

[Edmund]

I honestly dont know how WC schools stay in bussiness with these boring day in an day out training routines.


Some don't stay in business!
It's up to the teacher to engage and keep up the interest of the students.
Plus since you have a background in other arts it's possibly a little too easy.
For a complete beginner they may be finding it quite tough to keep up.




2- Lack of fighting stances an moblity an striking drills other than chain punching an really low applications, so focused on forms an chi sao.. wheres the training for defense against knife attacks an mutliple opponents?


I'd say you have to start with unarmed single opponent prior to moving on to very difficult stuff like multiple opponents or knife wielding ones.

Similarly fighting stances and mobility come after you get your arms coordinated. Dodging around as a defence can become a crutch rather than learning to coordinate your arms and your eyes.

There's a progression of learning.



What my sifu says... "wait till later on... applications will come later on, not many applications but they will come later on..." ive seen the senior students... im not impressed, i honestly think i can beat everyones ass in that school.. am i failing to see something?

I mean dont get me wrong the style is amazing... but i just see a lot of holes in it. Anyone offereing to clarify things or add more to the pile of questions?

I don't think the style will be strong in every department. You may be a better kicker than everyone for instance - due to your kickboxing. Which could allow you to beat everyone's ass.

Perhaps in the departments where you aren't strong you could learn something that makes you even better.

[ammocase]

I honestly do want to continue with the style, you dont go through tons of reading an not feel some kind of connection from the style. But the whole... do pak sao pak bar lop sao... that other stuff i didnt learn yet.. which is that rolling hands thing an chi sao.. is the only thing i see them doing!!!

All that "it comes later" is getting old... especially when the senior students are doing the same thing i am. I have a feeling if i grab them from behind in a bearhug they wont know what the hell to do, i know that most of their training will not prepare them for any ecounter unless the guy for some reasin is a wc practioner an he gets into a horse stance an starts blasting vertical punches.

[Ultimatewingchun]

The doctor hasn't lead you astray. I spent 8 years with Moy Yat - and for the first 4 of those years I was mostly wondering when I was going to learn how to make any of it work - and for the last four I was either working out privately on doing just that or even "doing-my-own-thing" right there in the school.

In fact, before I go any further in what I'd like to say to you directly, ammo...perhaps this is a good time to reveal EXACTLY what were the circumstances surrouding my decision to leave Moy Yat and study with William Cheung...

Four years earlier I had the whole full contact sparring experience thing going with John Cheng (Moy 4)...and how that led to Danny Inosanto wanting to meet Moy Yat....which he did by paying for Moy's planefare to California...and then Dan eventually came to NYC for a week....and then he left completely (I'll try to dig up that post for you, ammo...

but anyway....that was 1979....now let's flash forward to the spring of 1983....by now William Cheung had published 5 different magazine articles (starting in October, 1982)...in Inside Kung Fu and in Blackbelt magazine....WITH PHOTOS...of his TWC system...and detailed explanations of the CENTRAL LINE (in addition to the centerline)....and the UNUSUAL (for wing chun) SIDESTEPPING FOOTWORK....the unusual Entry technique...and his whole concept about taking techniques OUT of the forms, chi sao, and wooden dummy and drilling them as part of actual combat techniques (ie.- he straight punches - and I do what?...he hooks...and I do what?...he throws a rear front kick...and I do what?

AND I started using this material in the classes (ie.- including teaching some of it)...It was just myself and about 2-3 other guys who were doing about 90% of the teaching in Moy Yat's school at that time - as Moy spent about 90% of his time doing his artwork when he was in the school...or this or that...but only about 10% of his time actually teaching wing chun...

but once he saw what I was doing - he hit the roof...called me into his office....answered my complaints about the lack of teaching with "that's his teaching style - like Yip Man...the student has to figure it out after getting the basics from the teacher"....answered my complaints about not getting any more advanced material after spending 8 years with "do more chi sao with the other seniors"...answered my complaint about the lack of footwork with "go play more chum kiu"...and so on.

Instead, I told him that I had had enough...I walked out - and never went back.

(I became a direct student of William Cheung in August, 1983).

As for you....I suspect that you may have to look elsewhere within the wing chun world in order to find what you're lookin' for - as my gut intuition is that very few guys from Moy are really training realistically - even these days. I suppose it's a case-by-case basis kind of thing - but don't hold your breath on it. It sounds like the guy you're learning from has bought all the kool aid.

[AndrewS]

Ammocase,

Check my bro Edgar.

<http://www.brooklynwt.com/>

Not all Wing Chun is just the same drills for all eternity; some attempts to address most of the common stuff early. The European branches of WT, like them or not, are predicated on the idea of a roughly uniform curriculum covering self-defense scenarios, distance, close range, elbows, knees, kicks, takedowns, standing vs. ground, and ground work, all within the first year and a half of training (assuming decent physical skills and training 3-4x/ wk). While WT takes forever to get to the 'advanced' part of the system, it gives a good survey of the whole thing up front, which you can work on refining and testing as you continue, if you so desire.

Andrew

[ammocase]

Honestly... i dont want to take modified styles of wing chun. Its either this or no wing chun, ill go back to karate or kickboxing if thats the case.

Anyone else have any debate to this? ...Its moy yat wing chun from moy tung family

An Andrews.... boricuaaaaaa!!!!!!

[AndrewS]

Ammo,

While there are some differences in tactics and mechanics, when it comes to actual material, what I've learned in WT has close correspondence with what friends of mine from WSL line through Gary Lam (who was influenced by Yip Man in some of his curriculum) do, and with the material from Ho Kam Ming (through Buddy Wu, an instructor of his from Hong Kong). There are clear differences, but some really funky stuff is in common (things I haven't seen out of some other lines).

As a number of people will say on this thread, what you're perceiving as problems in the style, are more problems of certain schools within the style.

Andrew

P.S. Edgar's my training bro; I'm a gabacho from LA. If you look him up, tell him Dr. Andrew sent you by.

[jooerduo]

ammocase said...

Honestly... i dont want to take modified styles of wing chun. Its either this or no wing chun, ill go back to karate or kickboxing if thats the case.

Anyone else have any debate to this? ...Its moy yat wing chun from moy tung family




hey ammocase,

I thought wing chun has been modified since day one - whenever that was.

but if i were someone looking to learn this martial art, i would look at how skilled the teacher is rather than get hung up on the lineage he is in

searching for good teachers is part of the journey

[Ultimatewingchun]

You're a little confused with some of your wording, ammo....It was William Cheung who put the label "modified" on Moy Yat's (and everyone else's) wing chun - back in the early 1980's.

But don't get too caught up on the words. (At this point, although I'm primarily a TWC/William Cheung man - I have incorporated a big piece of the basic "attack-the-center-of-mass" concepts/tactics that I learned from Moy Yat into what I do as well).

Yeah...there are differences in various wing chun styles...some differences very noticable....and some may appear (and probably are) more effective styles than others...

but rather than get into a big flame war about any of this, the best attitude, imo...is that there are good schools within many (if not all) styles/lineages of wing chun.

You just have to have the patience to find one.

Btw...if you're near the "G" train - you could make it to my school probably within 40 minutes or less from Greenpoint, if you're interested in watching some classes....and you'll find the training approach taken (right from day one) similar to what AndrewS described - in that you'll be learning basic wing chun forms, drills, and chi sao - but also wrestling/grappling in the clinch and on the ground...and LOTS AND LOTS of self defense techniques (vs. headlocks, bear hugs, chokes, grabs, etc)...heavy bag work, kicking shields, knees and elbows from the clinch...basic wrestling takedown defenses like sprawling, w h i z z e r s , cross faces, etc...

LOTS OF footwork, combat, and sparring drills almost immediately - with a big emphasis on being able to deal with hooks, haymakers, jab/cross, uppercuts, roundhouse kicks, etc. - as well as gearing up and engaging in contact sparring (including headshots) - as soon as I think you're ready (could possibly be within 4-5-6 months...depending upon what you bring to the table from the outset).

[ammocase]

Well i live by the g train.. whats your stop an directions from the train stop?

I live in williamsburg. An whats your monthly fee i am a college student so that is an issue, you can private message me all this if you want.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'll private message you, ammo...

[ammocase]

Your a lot further then i thought lol... if you were closer it might be possible but i work an go to school... a 40/60 min commute would eat up too much time

so any additonal comments about the orginal post?

"I mean dont get me wrong the style is amazing... but i just see a lot of holes in it. Anyone offereing to clarify things or add more to the pile of questions?"

[Tom Kagan]

Anyone else have any debate to this? ...Its moy yat wing chun from moy tung family

It is possible Ving Tsun may not ultimately be for you.


About 2.5 miles north of where you currently study is Henry Moy: 70 Vanderbilt Avenue, (718) 624-1926

[Tom Kagan]

...wheres the training for defense against knife attacks an mutliple opponents?


You are either delusional or a troll. Either way, it is possible Ving Tsun may ultimately not be for you.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Henry Moy is good, ammo. I remember working out with him back in the day. (A nice guy too).

[ammocase]

You are either delusional or a troll. Either way, it is possible Ving Tsun may ultimately not be for you.

Ok... then your school isnt for me either, an explain why you say im either a troll or delusional... ving tsun lacks these in their self defense?

Im not looking for someone to promote their schools.. ill just prank call them numbers for years if you do... lets see how delusional i am when i call the school asking for wang chung... im kidding.. maybe.

[Tom Kagan]

Ok... then your school isnt for me either, an explain why you say im either a troll or delusional... ving tsun lacks these in their self defense?

Im not looking for someone to promote their schools.. ill just prank call them numbers for years if you do... lets see how delusional i am when i call the school asking for wang chung... im kidding.. maybe.


Alright, perhaps I was a little too harsh on you. It depends on whether the misspelling "an" you made was supposed to be "and" or "on".

If it was "on" as I originally read it, I stick by my original statement.

If it was "and", I'll simply retract my "delusional or troll" comment. Instead, I would prefer not to address your words as it is a subject well beyond the scope of what I wish to discuss in this thread. My apologies for any confusion.

You insisted you only wanted this art and you already complained that Victor was too far from you. Until I learn of someone closer, Henry is the closest person I know to where you are studying now. However, if you are now looking for another art, I will also point out there is a Hung Gar sifu I happen to know in the exact same studio you study at now.

Of course, it's always your choice what kind of relationship you wish to have with Henry. However, if you call someone because of some reason having to do with something I said, just call me and we'll straighten it out. Tel: (917) 658-0091.

[ammocase]

Alright, perhaps I was a little too harsh on you. It depends on whether the misspelling "an" you made was supposed to be "and" or "on".

If it was "on" as I originally read it, I stick by my original statement.

If it was "and", I'll simply retract my "delusional or troll" comment. Instead, I would prefer not to address your words as it is a subject well beyond the scope of what I wish to discuss in this thread. My apologies for any confusion.

You insisted you only wanted this art and you already complained that Victor was too far from you. Until I learn of someone closer, Henry is the closest person I know to where you are studying now. However, if you are now looking for another art, I will also point out there is a Hung Gar sifu I happen to know in the exact same studio you study at now.

Of course, it's always your choice what kind of relationship you wish to have with Henry. However, if you call someone because of some reason having to do with something I said, just call me and we'll straighten it out. Tel: (917) 658-0091.

Yeah i been looking into the hung ga/ san shou training that they do in that studio... you have any insider info on that?

[anerlich]

wheres the training for defense against knife attacks an mutliple opponents?

If you want to learn knife defense, WC is not your best option.

Most of the bare hand defenses/blocks in WC will get your limbs shredded against anyone who has the faintest idea of what to do with a knife. IMO you'd be better finding a decent FMA or CQC teacher. A good teacher will impress on you how foolish it is to fight someone with a blade if you don't have a weapon and you have any chance to escape.

Butterfly sword techs can (THEORETICALLY, and this is of course an anti-theoretician forum!) be adapted to a knife fight, but you can't realistically carry such weapons - you'd be better off learing to use an impact weapon like a walking stick. Or running away.

As for multiple opponents, yeah you can look at some scenarios. IMHO WC is better suited for fighting a single opponent, or multiple opponents in a corridor, so none of them can outflank you - styles like CLF have better tactics (in THEORY) for people coming from all directions. But the same applies as to knife fighting, the odds against you are considerable and you should avoid this if you possibly can. IMO, others will probably disagree.

Your roadwork and interval sprints are probably your best form of training for such eventualities.

I would imagine your boxing and kickboxing gyms didn't have a lot to offer in this regard. They know their areas of expertise and sensibly do not venture outside them. Not so with too many TMAers (and MMAers - didn't some MMA fighter get wasted in a street fight recently? Brought his RNC to a knife fight?).