Chi Sao and Shoulder Fatigue

[Lugoman]

Hello,

I've been doing Wing Chun for a little over 3 months now and recently began doing Chi Sao, well, just the rolling. My fellow newbies and I notice that our shoulders give out after about a minute of rolling.

My Sifu and senior students tell us that we need to learn to relax our shoulders, and this will come with time. Well, that is easier said than done especially when your partner is stiff as a board and his fook sao is like having a cinder-block hanging off your forearm .

My question is, are there any exercises outside of class that one can do solo that may help? I've tried doing the rolling with weights in my hands, but it's not the same energy and I'm also concerned that this may actually lead to bad habits. etc.

[Liddel]

Using too much force in the beggining will cause many bad habbits IMO.

Also are you using the shoulder to raise Bong Sao ?

This can cause these problems IME, if you relax the shoulder and raise the elbow first it should feel better.

Its tough without seeing you practice. Bong Sao's not mean to hold an action.... there's a saying the "Bong Sao never stays"

So if your teacher has no problem with people using heavy hands, circumvent the system by turning to Tan sao faster so your not holding your opponents force.

Tan and Bong are brother/sister actions...when your bong is heavy, turn to tan sao and the force goes...when your Tan is heavy turn to Bong and the force goes....

Good Luck.

[Lugoman]

Thank you Liddel,

I did the Tan/Bong Sao after reading your post and I do believe that I am doing as you say, raising my shoulder instead of my elbow first. And I do know that I have a tendency to pause on the Bong. I come from a Shorin Ryu background, so I'm still in the "strike-a-pose" mode with my techniques as was done in Kata and One-Steps, and the way we practice our individual techniques in WC.

My teacher advocates forward pressure in our rolling but working with awkward newbies such as myself, everyone tends to be stiff, it's like driving a car in which the power steering has taken out on.


Tan and Bong are brother/sister actions...when your bong is heavy, turn to tan sao and the force goes...when your Tan is heavy turn to Bong and the force goes....

I think this will help a lot, I keep forgetting that this isn't a force against force art.

Thank you so much for your guidance.

[sihing]

I've had the same problem with the shoulder. My previous WC training taught me to have the elbow as the highest point, as compared to the shoulder and wrist. Also the direction of the elbow was more in a upward motion, rather than forward. This forces the useage of the shoulder. Lucky for me that my shoulders are a strong muscle for me, but still it does get tired quickly. Now, since training in the Sifu Gary Lam system, we learn to not use the shoulder as the point of reference but rather the elbow. On my last trip down there to LA, another international student training there had a good point about not using the shoulder. He said instead of thinking "Don't use my shoulder", think "Use my elbow", this will focus your attention to the right place. Also to avoid stiffness, when you are rolling in Chi Sau, keep the wrists loose, let them flop around when rolling, and this should keep your forearms loose. When the wrists are stiff and locked the forearms follow suit. Being stiff in WC/VT is a NO NO. And like Liddel said, using force in the beginning is wrong. Get used to the actions, and let the structure kick in, then the force will express itself naturally.

Hope this helps a bit :)

James

[duende]

Lidell's post is right on the money imo.




Sihing...


that's an intersting post. Although we somtimes use the elbow higher than the wrist and shoulder it really depends on angle of engagement. Sometimes it's actually flat or level with the shoulder and wrist. Always though the power is generated from the elbow and forward enegry. Never do we use or instruct a studen to use their shoulder to raise their arm.

This can cause damage if met with too much opposing force and if caught at a bad angle can lead to rotator cuff injuries.

[sihing]

When I first visited Sifu Lam's place and chi sau'd with everybody, they all could feel the shoulder involvement with my bong and always asked if I had sore shoulders. I was used to it I guess. Ideally, the elbow would not be the hightest point, but sh!t happens in a fight. My motto is to practice perfect so that in real life it comes out half right. :)

Another thing is if your partner is putting alot of weight into their roll, to try to absorb the weight in your stance, using the ground as an anchor, and not through the shoulders. Supporting someones weight in the shoulders will burn them out fast. In the beginning the roll has to be soft and with less energy. You build this up naturally as you get more experience with it.


James

[Lugoman]

Hi sihing,

Every little bit helps, I intend on being a WC sponge for the next few years and have been taking a lot of notes, and the advice I've received in this thread from everyone is definitely going into my notepad.

I've tried concentrating on the elbow (solo) and it does seem to make a difference. Now I'll just need to apply it next time I roll.

Thank you.

[Liddel]

Thank you so much for your guidance.

Dude - this place has given me some gems from time to time, hell even when ive disagreed with people here its solidified my understanding of things just by having to explain a POV....

After all the help ive got from others here - Im just paying it foward. :p

Besides you did 60% of the work - you asked the question....

With this mindset mate, you should do well.

[Todai]

There is definetly some good advice in this thread. Sihing brought a great point about transfering the weight to your stance instead of holding in the shoulders and arms. Thats really your key to relaxing.


I've tried concentrating on the elbow (solo) and it does seem to make a difference. Now I'll just need to apply it next time I roll.

Thank you.

This is a good point too, but not just in chi sao. When you play the forms your focus, your intent, your Yi, should be in the elbow. I find it helpful to think of every moment in SLT as being driven by the elbow. Plant the seed in Si Lim Tao, and it will blossom in chi sao.