Is stance training REALLY worth it?

[monkeyfoot]

This sounds like a complete Newb question but still...is it really worth heavily training stances?

I've be told that you should be able to hold a Horse Stance for at least 6 - 10 minutes. Why?
When we play a mantis form, the transition between stances is quick and usually never held for more than a second. As long as your legs are strong enough to correctly work the stances in a form, why should we spend ten minutes training it static?
People might say training stances keeps you routed and gives you power. Yea thats true, but I can still generate good power in a drilling fist/horse stance, its just a point of good body mechanics/technique.
Another point. No-one ever really uses proper stance work when fighting. It seems a shame to have spent all that time squatting on your plum blossom poles and to then forget about stance work when fighting.

So yea discuss. If one can work through a form without any trouble etc is that a testament that stance training isn't so important?

craig

[Yao Sing]

People don't seem to utilize their stances when fighting. Like you said, why bother if you aren't going to use them.

Maybe too much time is spent on static stance work and more should be spent on moving transitions and application.

Then again, quite a few don't use the punches they train either. It all falls apart under presure which means you don't really know it.

[EarthDragon]

I've be told that you should be able to hold a Horse Stance for at least 6 - 10 minutes. Why?

While thier are no certain time contraints to staic postures stance training does more for the body than you think.

Holding a low horse with quats paralell to the ground one could harldley hold this for 10 minutes but it does add strength to your legs, stretches the hip flexors, opens up many meridians, opens up the hui yin point, increases kidney yin and builds a strong foundation. Without a strong foundation one cannot build uopon it. the purpose of the horse is not to fight from and obviously when in combat you would never hold a position only as you said just transition through them.
The horse is the oldest and most over looked aspect of basic training. probably because it is the hardest
I watched a hung gar stylist named monte in the 80's bend a fence post with his horse training.... he had thights like tree trunks and a strong base tell me how you would think that would help him?


It seems a shame to have spent all that time squatting on your plum blossom poles and to then forget about stance work when fighting.

any time spent on training is not wasted. when fighting who says you forget about stance work its all incorporated together.

So yea discuss. If one can work through a form without any trouble etc is that a testament that stance training isn't so important?

why....... do you think form training is more important?

[monkeyfoot]

Thanks for the feedback


any time spent on training is not wasted. when fighting who says you forget about stance work its all incorporated together.

Thats great EarthDragon. Yes in theory it IS supposed to be incorporated all together, but as Yao Sing said, theory seems to go out the window under pressure.

I wouldn't say forms were more important. Im pointing out that fighting is dynamic in movement, therefore IMO it would be more productive to train stances that way. This doesn't necessarily have to be form work, but could be simple slow drills that move in and out of various stances.

Im all up for stance training, I hit a horse for 5 minutes everyday, I just wanted to know how people rated it and why.

craig

[SevenStar]

depends on what your goals are. for endurance training, it's great. however, extensive stance training is not necessary to learn how to fight.

[SevenStar]

No-one ever really uses proper stance work when fighting. It seems a shame to have spent all that time squatting on your plum blossom poles and to then forget about stance work when fighting.

forms look pretty, fighting does not. stances in application usually don't look the way they do in forms.

[SevenStar]

Then again, quite a few don't use the punches they train either. It all falls apart under presure which means you don't really know it.

or maybe they simply are not needed. I have never used:

willow palm
inside crescent kick
phoenix eye
x block
crane beak
gan sau
trapping

and literally at least a hundred others. it's not that they have no use to all, but I personally have no use for them.

[Pilot]

The answer is no if you only have to throw one attacker...

[mantid1]

I think horse stance training goes deeper than just for fighting.


I used to stand when I started training...but not all the time and I did not understand the benefits. Just did it because I was told it was good. I did not take it seriously untill a teacher descibed and demonstrated the benefits.

In the past 5 years I have had much more time on my hands. So, I have stood almost every day for the past four years. The longest for two hours. Now I do between 20 minutes and half an hour a day in a horse stance.

No, its not the real low stance. Thats not the way it is to be done. The average person would be shaking after 10 minutes in the high stance anyway.

The horse stance training combined with Yi jin ching exercies are fantastic.

I do not have the time or desire to list the benefits of the horse stance training but it is great and beneficial.

the biggest problem is that people do not have the time, dedication or both to train the stances.

I had an interesting conversation with Sifu Hui about the horse stance training. He gave me some GREAT insight into the history and philosophy behind the stance training on how it is connected with chinese culture, medicine, philosophy and fighting. We spent 20 minutes just talkig about the horse stance....then got started on the bow and arrow stance and ran out of time:(

Maybe he will jump in and give some info.

[MightyB]

wrestlers do stance training, and they fight. Their stance training involves adopting a deep squat with their backs against a wall...

Stance training is important for developing strong legs. It shouldn't be the only method you use. You get a deep burn without having to pant like you do with running or squats. I've seen people stance train with weights, and I've seen stance training done in more positions than the simple horse stance.

When a fencer lunges, it's a deep hill climbing or bow and arrow stance, same thing for a boxer's cross. It isn't held for long, but it's there.

I think that maybe it's a failure to commit that we're seeing when we say that people don't use the stances in fighting. In Judo, you have to commit 100% to a throw or you fail. I have a feeling that it's the same with the striking arts, except that there's more "wiggle" room in the depth that you have to commit to experience marginal success. You can be bouncy and flighty and still get a lucky shot in sport fighting. How would that change in a self defense situation? Do you have to be more rooted? I don't know because thankfully I've only ever been in competitive sport fights or simple schoolyard scuffles. I don't know that I'd want to be bouncing around on the balls of my feet and throwing a bunch of half-hearted jabs if I was facing a mad man with a box cutter in the center isle of an airplane.

[isol8d]

I like the gut check that stance training can provide. Nothing quite like uncontrollable shaking in your leg as it is about to give out. As my Sihing says, so what if you fall, it's only a couple of inches.

As far as fighting goes, I like to think that stance training provides a solid core and builds up pain endurance in the legs.

[Onjer]

First of all, when I'm correcting a flaw in technique, it is almost always because of a problem with foot work. My teacher said a true master/teacher always looks at the feet of the student first. "Bu-fa" is the term for stepping, and stances are the foundation of the techniques. So, if the foundation comes naturally without thinking, the student can focus on the execution of the technique. If he's tripping over his feet, he's lost.

When I started cross-training in MMA, I was told my strikes were extremely powerful. Why? My foundation was solid from stance training. When Master Wei was told the 8-Step didn't have any internal (chi-gong) stengthening, he replied each of the 8 postures was a meditation posture.

So, stance training is very important. That said, I've heard those who brag about how long they can hold a horse-stance, and get the feeling they would be beat to a bloody pulp agaist a beginning boxer, due to lack of practical training.

So, stance training is very important - one never gets to a point where they can skip over it - just like the best major league baseball hitters still practice from a tee. But it cannot be done in place of all the other aspects of full spectrum training.

[Sifu Darkfist]

The life clock stops while you are in the horse stance (GM T Yang)

reference to foundation ?

On this rock i will build my church (peter in horse stance?)

[Shaolinlueb]

yes you should train stances. creates strong legs, creates good base for anti take down moves.

6-10 minutes? dont know about that 2-5 should be good enough.

[wiz cool c]

I'm not a Mantis guy and I don't know how you spar in your class but in my training stances are my secret weapon. I do Bagua,Tai Chi and Shuai Jiao these days. My sparring these days is stand up grappling. I do 30 minute a day now of stand post. I'm working my way back to 40. This training creates a very strong root . This allows me to not get throw easily and to keep on my feet even when I am extreamly tired.

In fact just this week I sparred with one of the top Shuai Jiao guys in Bejing. He is one of the coaches who come by once in a while. We all went out to dinner this week as well and he comentend on how good my ballance is and how I'm difficult to throw.

So Stance training is good for not getting swept or thrown and also for generating power in your strikes and throws.

[wiz cool c]

Sorry for miss spelling [Beijing] Besides doing a lot stance training I'm also a ****ing retard.

[Mega-Foot]

Part of your stance training is geared to developing balance under excruciating pain. Have you ever seen someone 5 min. into a horse stance? Good practitioners won't waver when the pain hits. Less adept practitioners will begin to wobble.

It's like grace under fire, in a way.

[Crosshandz]

Sorry for miss spelling [Beijing] Besides doing a lot stance training I'm also a ****ing retard.

If you read this http://www.yiquan.org.uk/art-zz.html you will understand the significance of stance training.

Keep at it, the results are essential to your Kungfu ;)