Cro Cop dropped

[Yao Sing]

with another of those useless high kicks to the head. Good thing real fighters don't get advice from Internet experts.:D

What amazed me was he was standing and walking after his foot was twisted 180 degrees when he fell. Ouch!

[Black Jack II]

with another of those useless high kicks to the head. Good thing real fighters don't get advice from Internet experts.

Big difference pulling that off in the safe confines of the ring, then doing it in some parking lot, failing, and getting stomped.

But go ahead and keep confusing the two.

[Kung Pao]

Black Jack's right, man. When you fight in the ring, fighter's play it like a game, whihc includes pyschological games. Head kicks are often unexpected. And if you get unbalanced and taken to the floor, it's not gonna punish you hitting the floor--not like getting slammed on concrete. And taking a barefoot stomp to the ribs is a whole different game than taking a frigging boot. And if you fall in the ring, you might get beat unconscious, but on the concrete, you might get stomped to death or disability. And nobody's gonna run to your corner. You're gonna crawl to the end of the street and flag down a car, or die.

[Mas Judt]

It's a risk thing. Could a high kick work in combat? Sure. But is the risk, the opening worth it? Probably not.

Great fight tho... Really liked Bispo vs. elvis.

[rogue]

The unexpected is the unexpected. I do know people who can and have used high kicks to take someone out.

I missed the darn fight, my wife grabbed the TV and switched it to Home Shopping Network. :mad:

[Mas Judt]

Heck, I've done it and anybody who knows me knows how funny THAT is.

The prohibition against it is 'entry level' knowledge. After that it is risk/reward assesment. The simple fact is that it is a high risk move that creates significant gaps. But like anything - good timing/good opportunity and it's magic.

[Yao Sing]

The unexpected is the unexpected. I do know people who can and have used high kicks to take someone out.

And who is more likely to get caught with the unexpected, a street punk or a skilled pro fighter? If a pro fighter can be taken out with a head kick I'd think it would be much easier with an untrained punk.

I think it works in the ring because of the prevailing attitude that it's too risky.

I kicked a guy in the head sparring in a tourney once and afterwards he told me he didn't try to block it because he was tall and nobody in his class could kick that high so he never considered he would get hit.

I like doing the unexpected, it works for me. If it doesn't work for others then they should just stick with their comfort zone.

Kicks are stronger than punches. I don't have a knockout punch but I do have really good balance and flexability. Maybe it's just a matter of what you're good at doing.

[Yao Sing]

Great fight tho... Really liked Bispo vs. elvis.

What happened to Elvis, he forget all his BJJ or something? He must have really been rocked early on because he was lost on his back for most of the fight.

[BruceSteveRoy]

The unexpected is the unexpected. I do know people who can and have used high kicks to take someone out.

I missed the darn fight, my wife grabbed the TV and switched it to Home Shopping Network. :mad:

i believe they are broadcasting it again today on spike

[Mega-Foot]

I have kicked many a man in the head and knocked him out cold. Doing so in a ring is even easier, such as these openings arise left and right. But being such as a skilled high-kicker is above mere triflings such as tournaments, I don't enter into these competitions anymore. They're simply too simple.

[Mega-Foot]

Black Jack's right, man. When you fight in the ring, fighter's play it like a game, whihc includes pyschological games. Head kicks are often unexpected. And if you get unbalanced and taken to the floor, it's not gonna punish you hitting the floor--not like getting slammed on concrete. And taking a barefoot stomp to the ribs is a whole different game than taking a frigging boot. And if you fall in the ring, you might get beat unconscious, but on the concrete, you might get stomped to death or disability. And nobody's gonna run to your corner. You're gonna crawl to the end of the street and flag down a car, or die.

I don't believe you know anything about fighting. You must utilize the greatest weapon in your arsenal at the first opening, and utilize it well. This weapon is, without a doubt, the head kick.

[Mas Judt]

Don't feed the troll.

[unkokusai]

knock it off already. :rolleyes:

[Shaolinlueb]

i was disapointed.

[unkokusai]

i was disapointed.

Why? It sure wasn't boring!

[Black Jack II]

Of course you can use a high kick in a fight and of course it may work but high kicking often functions on a advanced degree of athleticism and fine motor skill, these are attributes that are harder to keep up with age to be overall effective and give less general efficiency to the average person, than a less chambered low line kick.

My point is why practice something if you are in specifc talking about self defense that tends without constant practice to lose effectiveness rapidly without a certain maintenance of attributes.

Like Mas Judt said, its a risk/reward thing. Sometimes the greater the risk the better the reward but how much is to much of a cost if it fails??

[rogue]

Anything can fail BJ, and even basic skills can deteriorate without practice. I'm not a high kicker but I've clipped guys in the chin with a basic front kick, and the kick doesn't take a lot effort to maintain. And you're right that there are techniques that depend on some advanced degree of athleticism and fine motor skill, but I would hope that after all these years of training that I'm not a totally out of shape old guy and that there are a few that I can pull off. The way I've been training we avoid the idea that any technique is off the table. Sometimes the high risk move is the best choice.

[MasterKiller]

What happened to Elvis, he forget all his BJJ or something? He must have really been rocked early on because he was lost on his back for most of the fight.

BJJ is not the same in MMA as it is in BJJ.

[Mega-Foot]

That is precisely why kung fu is superior in fighting. I leave people on their backs. I never proffer it as a recourse to talent.

[Black Jack II]

Rogue,

Of course anything can work, at some point in time, some where, some guy used the most out of bounds fine motor skill technique to get out of a jam. But that was some other guy, in the past at some other time, who may or may not of been able to pull it off under a slight change in circumstances.

I look at things different, unless I am training something esotric because its just always fun to learn new things, to try and force them into the toolbox, I keep a lot of stuff off the table. This is not myopic, its just a realistic perspective on what my goals are, I am not looking to be the next Bruce Lee, but to just be a tough target and not be the next man's lunch meat.

Keeping 1,000 responses to the same attack does me no good, learning 1,000 variations of the same strike does me no good, it actually insults my intelligence. Having a core skill set that I feel comfortable with, that I find combative logic in, that I can most importantly remeber under stress, is what feels right for me.

[MasterKiller]

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g175/evilmaster-mma/The%20EvilMaster%20Report/The%20EvilMaster%20Report%20-%203/cop-conspiracy3.gif

[rogue]

BJ,
I stopped looking at separate techniques. Actually you find that there really aren't that many different responses to any given attack. Lots of variations on a theme which isn't a bad thing, but still the same general themes. Bodies only move so many ways, there are only so many real good targets, and a bunch more of pretty good targets. Same with joint locks and submissions.
If the goal is to hit the guy on the button does it matter if you hit him under the chin with an upper cut, an elbow, knee or a front snap kick?

I'm not so concerned with remembering things under stress but reacting well under stress.

[rogue]

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g175/evilmaster-mma/The%20EvilMaster%20Report/The%20EvilMaster%20Report%20-%203/cop-conspiracy3.gif

The funny part is that he drops his guard to absorb an expected lower kick.

[SifuAbel]

Of course you can use a high kick in a fight and of course it may work but high kicking often functions on a advanced degree of athleticism and fine motor skill, these are attributes that are harder to keep up with age to be overall effective and give less general efficiency to the average person, than a less chambered low line kick.

My point is why practice something if you are in specifc talking about self defense that tends without constant practice to lose effectiveness rapidly without a certain maintenance of attributes.


Translation: I can't kick well and I'm only getting older so why bother.

You do what you can get away with. If one kicks with all the grace of a bovine then by all means don't try.

[Black Jack II]

I'm not so concerned with remembering things under stress but reacting well under stress.

Pffft.

That is the same meaning but worded different. Yes, angles are angles, and principles are principles, but don't tell me certain people or systems don't practice a dozen different moves to the same attack or even yet if you want to look at it this way, the same zone of attack.

I have more than enough in my own bank to work on. I just don't find a lot of valid points in some things, it does not mean that it won't work, but its not my gig and I am not going to be all liberal about it and go all overboard claiming all things are created equal.


I can't kick well and I'm only getting older so why bother.

I am still younger than you.:cool:

As for kicking, practice high kicking tell your blue in the face, but its not something I find usefull in the risk/reward system. I have more than decent physical attributes and conditioning but I still know that I am not Chuck Norris and I don't live in a Shaw Brothers video.

[rogue]

BJ, It's more of a mind set of not getting caught up in techniques. I've seen people break techniques out in order to fluff their system and make things more complicated. This is great to squeeze a few more shekels out of a student.


I have more than enough in my own bank to work on. I just don't find a lot of valid points in some things, it does not mean that it won't work, but its not my gig and I am not going to be all liberal about it and go all overboard claiming all things are created equal.
You do what you do. No biggie in the great big scheme of things.

[JetLi'sFearless]

Black Jack's right, man. When you fight in the ring, fighter's play it like a game, whihc includes pyschological games. Head kicks are often unexpected. And if you get unbalanced and taken to the floor, it's not gonna punish you hitting the floor--not like getting slammed on concrete. And taking a barefoot stomp to the ribs is a whole different game than taking a frigging boot. And if you fall in the ring, you might get beat unconscious, but on the concrete, you might get stomped to death or disability. And nobody's gonna run to your corner. You're gonna crawl to the end of the street and flag down a car, or die.

exactly, the mental difference is the biggest in street vs ring. Im a good fighter with glvoes on or in friendly sparring or what u see on ufc matches with the playing or feeling each other out, than going for the boom, shockalaka, etc. but on the streets before the fight even satrts I always feel like Im gonna lose or ams cared as hell and usually my hands or legs are shaking and I have no reflexes (even a siomple punch is hard to defend) and become slow, etc. and always lose in streetfights or get attacked fomr behind or something.

[unkokusai]

Your problem applies to both (all?) contexts.

[JetLi'sFearless]

I got into a street fight again the other day with a tall teenager that pretty much beat me. What happened was I was trying to help out some kids who were about to get jumped and otunumbered by a bunch of teenage punks who were real loud mouths and some of them were real big and agressive actually. Anyway they left and as I was heading to my car alone they confronted me and I didnt run to my car or leave casue I didnt want to seem like a punk, despite outnumbered and expected them to fioght crappy or back out. ANyway they started coming toward me ebfore I had a chance to open the car and I said "oh thats real fair 15 against one" and one replied "well let tie go at you" so they put this 6 foot 5 or so black guy in front of me (Im 5 foot 8), and I knew there and than Id lose if I tried striking or punching with him, as I doubt id be able to reahc his head. He came at me all confident and threw a straight right at my face or a jab (forgot which but it was straight like a boxers), and I blocked it with ym forearms (I was waiting for the aprry but my hands were kinda shaking from fear I think or I just lost my reflexes). Anyway, afterwards now that I think of iot I should have followed up but because of the fear of reacha dvantage I jsut stayed back and was on the defebse. He kept coming and I threw a leg kick which literally bounced off his leg like rubber (didnt seem to do any damage and infact he was coming at me so fast it almost made me fall). than i decided to clinch with him and try to turn him around and put him in a rear naked choke.

For 10 or so seconds he kept defending and I kept trying to put him in an rnc and than make him fall to the ground by offbalancing his body, and after awhile I noticed from the corner of my eye the guy earlier whow as tlaking smack and saying hed take me on and all my friends was trying to sucked punch me while i was in the clinch. From this point on my memory is hazy but I recall trying to mvoe away from the sucker punch and either falling by tripiong on the guy whose clinch I was with leg, or beibng attacjked and pushed to the ground by others in the crowd, or losing my focus on my main opponent and being forced to the ground as I tried moving away from the sucker punch. Long story shrot I was on the ground getting kicked by a bunch of them before some lady and man in a car started honking and they spread away and ran from the scene. The lady in the car was like "oh thats real fair 8 against one" or something. But again, I always sucked at streetfighting and I think always will, training dont matter, I just dont have the killer isntinct that growing up in a hood gives u.

[JetLi'sFearless]

oh and I have a big swell on my cheek and was spitting blood for a bit. Its like I fotgot the slip existed or something cause all I was waiting foe is the parry and realzied how off my hand eye conrdination was than reverted to a block that I could do but didnt follow up to due his reach advantage and size, and I was lsot from the get go.

[SifuAbel]

I am still younger than you.:cool:

As for kicking, practice high kicking tell your blue in the face, but its not something I find usefull in the risk/reward system. I have more than decent physical attributes and conditioning but I still know that I am not Chuck Norris and I don't live in a Shaw Brothers video.

OK, so the translation should read, "I'm younger than you but my kicks still suck."

Everything has its place. If I see the opportunity to kick someone at my head level. I know I have the comfort, flexibility, speed, and power to do it. And I'm older than you are. :p :rolleyes: And I can do it just as well. I don't restrict my choices on what others think is a bad choice. To me, its only a bad choice if I don't really have the skill. When the appropriate time and place for it arrives, it will be there with a vengeance.

Then again, I forgot that striving for excellence in skill has long been replaced by the commonality of mediocrity. God forbid one has to actually work to gain a specific skill.

[rogue]

I've been told so many times by so many people that those "other" techniques don't work that I figure all I'm left with is hitting the ground and doing the turtle. Fists are bad, open hand is not natural, head butts good, head butts bad, all fights go to the ground, what if he has buddies, and on and on. It's almost as bad as the snake oil the traditional are selling. The way I see it you do what you have to do with what's available.

[BraveMonkey]

I think a good head kick is a viable tool, given the circumstances, but I don't ever plan to use one to defend myself. Here's why:

1. I'm only 5ft6, so my feet don't reach many heads.

2. I'm 32 years old and find that those high kicks don't come without a little warm up. If my muscles are cool and I'm wearing jeans, there's no way I'm going to get my foot up over my head without pulling/tearing something important (and I don't mean my jeans).

3. It doesn't seem worth the risk. I train to kick below the solar plexus and if I can get a guy doubled over, I'd rather use my knee against his face.

Now, COULD I train my kicks better so that 1 and 2 are less of a factor? Sure, but I'd rather have well trained/powerful low kicks than put a lot of time into something that isn't ideal for my body type and probably won't ever serve me well. It's great to have an understanding and appreciation of many styles/techniques, but realistically not everything is well suited to everyone for practical use.

To those who can masterfully kick to the head, you have my respect and awe.

[Yao Sing]

Im a good fighter with glvoes on or in friendly sparring or what u see on ufc matches with the playing or feeling each other out, than going for the boom, shockalaka, etc. but on the streets before the fight even satrts I always feel like Im gonna lose or ams cared as hell and usually my hands or legs are shaking and I have no reflexes (even a siomple punch is hard to defend) and become slow, etc. and always lose in streetfights or get attacked fomr behind or something.

Beleive it or not I'm actually the opposite. I have trouble getting fired up for a friendly sparring match so I don't really try all that hard. In a competition I get nervous because of the crowd like having to get up and give a public speach.

In a real fight there's no time to worry about any of that and I do what's needed, I have no choice and the more pressure the harder I fight. I'm just weird like that.


Everything has its place. If I see the opportunity to kick someone at my head level. I know I have the comfort, flexibility, speed, and power to do it. And I'm older than you are. :p :rolleyes: And I can do it just as well. I don't restrict my choices on what others think is a bad choice. To me, its only a bad choice if I don't really have the skill. When the appropriate time and place for it arrives, it will be there with a vengeance.

I'm probably older than both of you guys and the age factor just adds to the deception. Nobody will be expect a head kick from an older guy so it will be that much easier to pull off. Especially if you set it up by throwing a few mid-level kicks before hand.

I don't think Cro Cop expected a head kick so he dropped his guard to where he thought he would get hit. That's exactly why it worked. I guess for me because I'm not that good I rely a lot on deception and doing the unexpected.


Then again, I forgot that striving for excellence in skill has long been replaced by the commonality of mediocrity. God forbid one has to actually work to gain a specific skill.

There's a lot to be said for basic techniques that are quickly learned and effective. Nothing against that at all. The problem seems to be when anything beyond that is put down and ridiculed. Especially when some of our knowledgeable members put them down when in fact it's just their personal preference.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g175/evilmaster-mma/The%20EvilMaster%20Report/The%20EvilMaster%20Report%20-%203/cop-conspiracy3.gif

Nice.

Mirco is a trained fighter that misread a kick and paid for it.
It Happens.

[Black Jack II]

BJ, It's more of a mind set of not getting caught up in techniques

Some people are more principle based, some more technique focused, some both, its all good. Like I already stated, somewhere at some time, some guy has used the most out of wack technique to pull himself out of a jam. No one holds the stamp on one way, just pick yours and go with what you got.


Everything has its place.

Come on lets be honest here. You know everything does not have its place.


When the appropriate time and place for it arrives, it will be there with a vengeance.:rolleyes:

Hey, if you find those peachy spinning boot to the head moves are worth your time, go for it. If your so confidant to assume in your perceived kicking ability during a time of stress, maybe in a situation of unknown contact management, in a enviroment which is unflattering, then like every known rule or law, you could be the exception.

I will just stick to the side of the road that I think for me makes more sense.

[Shaolinlueb]

Why? It sure wasn't boring!


i wanted cro cop to win.

[SifuAbel]

Hey, if you find those peachy spinning boot to the head moves are worth your time, go for it. If your so confidant to assume in your perceived kicking ability during a time of stress, maybe in a situation of unknown contact management, in a enviroment which is unflattering, then like every known rule or law, you could be the exception.

I will just stick to the side of the road that I think for me makes more sense.

You've said absolutely nothing. This means nothing. Its still reads, "I'm lacking."

Stress, shmess, I don't have to think about it. I think that is the difference between us. Theres nothing "percieved" about my kicking ability. I don't practice by thinking about it. If it comes out, it comes out. Not only have I done it in a stress reaction. Its actually a reflex preference. To me its a third hand. I don't have to struggle with my kicks at all. Maybe you do and thats why you should stick to the simple stuff.

Btw, we're still talking about a round kick, not anything spinning. As it is, It wasn't even that good a round kick that put cop down.

Bovine = you

[Black Jack II]

You've said absolutely nothing. This means nothing. Its still reads, "I'm lacking

Because I find high kicks to be unsafe I am lacking?

LMAO...whatever:rolleyes:

It's not like I have not spent years training in filipino low line kicking. It's just a different viewpoint.

Hey, if thats how you feel, more power to you man. Like I already pointed out, if you find yourself to be advocating high kicks as a good tactic of defense then by all means do so. We all know you got bills to pay.


Its actually a reflex preference. To me its a third hand. I don't have to struggle with my kicks at all. Maybe you do and thats why you should stick to the simple stuff.

Of course it is, your a virtuoso, a prodigy only one level lower on the scale of toughness than Shaft himself, as Christina Aguelleria would say, your the Djinni in the bottle man.

And no, its because simple stuff tends to work.

But since you like high kicks so much here is a video of one and the glory of misplaced youth.


http://vidmax.com/index.php/videos/view/36

[Shaolinlueb]

did i mention ganzaga's training facility is 10 minutes from my house?

[SifuAbel]

B
It's not like I have not spent years training in filipino low line kicking. It's just a different viewpoint.



Like I don't know how to kick low. What a moron. :rolleyes:

Yeah, we all pay bills, chester. Although you pay yours by preaching.

[ChinoXL]

omg i just saw the fight; is crocops ankle okay?! :eek:

[MasterKiller]

Here is what is ankle looked like when he fell:

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k272/Eric_053/CroCapitated.jpg

[SifuAbel]

Thats gotta hurt!!!

[alchemist]

Cro Cop lost because he walked into the arena to Duran Duran. It sucked the power right out of him. Really though... Has anyone ever heard funnier walk-in music than that?

[BlueTravesty]

The reflex is a lonely child, he's sitting in the park.