Similarity between Shuai Chiao and Judo

[kal]

I've heard a lot about the legendary Chang Dung Sheng over the years, but never seen him in action until now.

Here is a clip someone posted on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhALaS1DlZg

The first thing that struck me was how similar some of those throws look to Judo throws. Haraigoshi, osoto-gari, hiza guruma all seemed to show up in that demo.

Interestingly enough, Robert W Smith noted the exact same thing in his book "Chinese Boxing: Methods and Masters." In the chapter on Chang, he wrote
that Shuai Chiao was basically 1880s Jujutsu (i.e. Judo) without the groundwork.

He also noted that he saw modern Judo throws such as uchimata, haraigoshi and ouchigari. In his opinion, the similarites were so strong that he stated: "I believe that Judo developed from Shuai Chiao rather than from an indigenous Japanese source."

Personally I don't buy into this, because the origins of Judo are very well documented. Kano is widely known to have used the Tenjin Shinyo Ryu and Kito Ryu of Jujutsu in his synthesis of Judo.

However, the question still remains why it looks so similar to Judo. Yes, I know that "the human body can only move in so many ways" and that "there are only so many ways to throw a person", but I don't buy that either. Many civilisations have wrestling and throwing sports, but they all look different from each other.

It's too much of a coincidence IMO that specific Judo throws would appear in Shuai Chiao.

So does anyone have any thoughts on this? If we discount Smith's theory that Judo originated from Shuai Chiao, then does that mean that somewhere along the line, Judo influenced Shuai Chiao?

Another possibility is that Shuai Chiao and ancient Jujutsu originated from the same source and then evolved in parallel. But I still don't think that this would account for such a strong similarity.

[Three Harmonies]

If you think all throwing arts look "totally different" you have not been around long enough. Throwing is throwing brother. From India to Iowa, Jiu Jitsu to Sambo, it is all pretty much the same principles involved regardless of geographic origin.
Save yourself a headache on this forum regarding asking which came first type questions.
Cheers
Jake :)

[bodhitree]

If you think all throwing arts look "totally different" you have not been around long enough. Throwing is throwing brother. From India to Iowa, Jiu Jitsu to Sambo, it is all pretty much the same principles involved regardless of geographic origin.
Save yourself a headache on this forum regarding asking which came first type questions.
Cheers
Jake :)

Bingo, especially when a jacket/gi is involved.

[Nick Monticello]

I think the egg came first. See, at some point a bird, whose evolutionary stage was just shy of a Chicken, layed an egg, from which the first Chicken hatched.

So thearfore, Shui Jiao came first. :D

[SevenStar]

I've heard a lot about the legendary Chang Dung Sheng over the years, but never seen him in action until now.

Here is a clip someone posted on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhALaS1DlZg

The first thing that struck me was how similar some of those throws look to Judo throws. Haraigoshi, osoto-gari, hiza guruma all seemed to show up in that demo.

Interestingly enough, Robert W Smith noted the exact same thing in his book "Chinese Boxing: Methods and Masters." In the chapter on Chang, he wrote
that Shuai Chiao was basically 1880s Jujutsu (i.e. Judo) without the groundwork.

He also noted that he saw modern Judo throws such as uchimata, haraigoshi and ouchigari. In his opinion, the similarites were so strong that he stated: "I believe that Judo developed from Shuai Chiao rather than from an indigenous Japanese source."

Personally I don't buy into this, because the origins of Judo are very well documented. Kano is widely known to have used the Tenjin Shinyo Ryu and Kito Ryu of Jujutsu in his synthesis of Judo.

However, the question still remains why it looks so similar to Judo. Yes, I know that "the human body can only move in so many ways" and that "there are only so many ways to throw a person", but I don't buy that either. Many civilisations have wrestling and throwing sports, but they all look different from each other.

It's too much of a coincidence IMO that specific Judo throws would appear in Shuai Chiao.

So does anyone have any thoughts on this? If we discount Smith's theory that Judo originated from Shuai Chiao, then does that mean that somewhere along the line, Judo influenced Shuai Chiao?

Another possibility is that Shuai Chiao and ancient Jujutsu originated from the same source and then evolved in parallel. But I still don't think that this would account for such a strong similarity.

we know judo did not come from shuai chiao. The usual debate is whether or not jujutsu came from shuai chiao. There is no documented verifiable evidence stating that it did. However, like three harmonies said, a throw is a throw. fighting tends to be that way, because the body can only move so many ways. a reverse punch in karate is a straight right in boxing. a front thrust kick from cma is a bencao in capoeira, etc. The big difference is in training methods and strategies of the style, not in the techniques themselves.

Some differences you can note though, is judo's use of kazushi, or offbalancing. They try to off balance in a more passive manner than SC, which will just hit you and knock you off balance. Also, IME, you don't see as much hip loading with techniques in SC ad you do in judo. We have actually had threads in the past discussing judo, sc, wrestling, bjj, etc in comparison. Search for the "ultimate grappling" threads.

[Water Dragon]

Sev is correct. I think thogh, there was probably some influence on both sides. China and Japan aren't that far from each other, and wrestling's been around for a few thousand years at least.

[lkfmdc]

1. Smith is not a good source for anything related to Shuai Chiao (no point in retyping the whole story, do a search here)

2. As long as human beings have two arms, two legs, a head, elbows and knees that bend the same ways, etc then there are a finite number of way to effectively fight/wrestle/grapple/contest/survive/throw/lock/trip/etc

3. The relationship between Judo and Shuai Chiao is frought with politics and history... one side in particular has a very large chip on it's shoulder

[Water Dragon]

3. The relationship between Judo and Shuai Chiao is frought with politics and history... one side in particular has a very large chip on it's shoulder

Some would argue they have reason for it.

[lkfmdc]

As a former history teacher let me say....

it is important to learn from the past, but we should not live there

[Water Dragon]

You don't have to tell me, I'm not Chinese. I'm just stating what I've seen.

[kal]

If you think all throwing arts look "totally different" you have not been around long enough. Throwing is throwing brother. From India to Iowa, Jiu Jitsu to Sambo, it is all pretty much the same principles involved regardless of geographic origin.



Dunno about that.

Even if we limit yourself to only considering Japanese arts, there is a big difference in techniques from style to style. For example, it's relatively easy to tell if a throw is from Yagyu Shingan Ryu jujutsu or Daito Ryu jujutsu. Totally different histories and intended uses mean that the throws are in fact very different. Someone with a bit of background can easily discern different jujutsu styles by observation. There are certain throws that only some styles will do because of the time period they were developed in.

And that's just within jujutsu mind you. Once you start to throw the modern budo into the mix even more differences pop up. Daito Ryu jujutsu and Aikido are closely related. But still, one can tell the difference if you know what to look for.

Anyway, I wasn't saying that Shuai Chiao and Judo are exactly the same thing. Just that I noticed some very strong similarities with some of the throws. The last throw that Chang does especially.

[Akronviper]

Ive allways heard that Shuai Chiao is one of the oldest forms of MA predating Judo, and Judo is an off shoot of Shuai Chiao. I also know the whole asian hierarcy is a bit off, no one will give credit to another nation and all asian history seems to be written so that one country does not have any ties to another.

[SevenStar]

Ive allways heard that Shuai Chiao is one of the oldest forms of MA predating Judo, and Judo is an off shoot of Shuai Chiao. I also know the whole asian hierarcy is a bit off, no one will give credit to another nation and all asian history seems to be written so that one country does not have any ties to another.

there is usually still something. you can tie oma roots to cma. you can tie much of kma roots to jma. fma stick fighting has some spanish tie in,etc. but two total mysteries are muay thai and jujutsu. not surprisingly, tho everybody tries to tie it to china.

[PangQuan]

i read there was some claim by i think it was Malaysia, i could totally be wrong. but whoever it was said they have ancient depictions of martial arts very similar to muay thai on cave walls.

i wish i could remember where i read/saw/heard that....

[Black Jack II]

muay thai

I would look at silat and the country of Burma for links on thai boxing.

[Merryprankster]

Many civilisations have wrestling and throwing sports, but they all look different from each other.


Not really. I've got experience across Sambo, Judo and wrestling. When I observe other styles, I am always able to identify what's going on. I know you say they "look different," but I don't think they do at all. The similarities, vice the differences, are what are most striking.

Sparring/competition rules, more than anything, dictate how wrestling styles look, IMO.

[SevenStar]

Dunno about that.

Even if we limit yourself to only considering Japanese arts, there is a big difference in techniques from style to style. For example, it's relatively easy to tell if a throw is from Yagyu Shingan Ryu jujutsu or Daito Ryu jujutsu. Totally different histories and intended uses mean that the throws are in fact very different. Someone with a bit of background can easily discern different jujutsu styles by observation. There are certain throws that only some styles will do because of the time period they were developed in.

And that's just within jujutsu mind you. Once you start to throw the modern budo into the mix even more differences pop up. Daito Ryu jujutsu and Aikido are closely related. But still, one can tell the difference if you know what to look for.

Anyway, I wasn't saying that Shuai Chiao and Judo are exactly the same thing. Just that I noticed some very strong similarities with some of the throws. The last throw that Chang does especially.

possibly, but he didn't say there was no way to tell - he said that throwing methods won't look totally different, which they won't. I can tell the difference in the double legs I've experienced in bjj, judo and shuai chiao, but you can still look at them and tell they are all double legs.

[kal]

Ive allways heard that Shuai Chiao is one of the oldest forms of MA predating Judo, and Judo is an off shoot of Shuai Chiao.

I don't really take this literally, although it might have a grain of truth in it as follows:

Judo was (partly) developed from Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Jujutsu, which in turn evolved from Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu.

Yoshin Ryu was founded around 1600 or so, by a doctor called Akiyama, who is rumoured to have travelled to China and learned some fighting techniques there.

Could it have been Shuai Chiao that he learned in China? Possibly. Although I really don't think it would look the same by the time Judo was developed.

[Akronviper]

Just one source but many more are out that that confirm the source. It is like inventing the wheel, one guy trips another and shuai chiao/judo is invented does it mean that people didnt trip other before that. I allways thought that Judo did take shuai chiao one step further by mixing Shuai Chiao and Ju Jitsu together, but I'm no expert in Judo.

"Shuai Chiao is the oldest martial art of China. It has a history of over 2,000 years – although some claim that it dates back much further. According to legend, Shuai Chiao – which was originally called Chiao Ti (and thereafter many other names throughout history) – was first used in 2697 B.C. in battles between the Yellow Emperor (Huang Di) and Chi Yu, who was a rebel and also a powerful wrestler. In the Chin Dynasty, which began in the year 221

Wall Painting from the Northern Dynasties (AD 420 - 581)
B.C., Shuai Chiao – which was still known as Chiao Ti – became part of the official military training program. Thereafter, Chiao Ti was known by various names throughout history until the central government of the Republic of China established the Central Kuo Shu Institute in Nanjing in 1928 and standardized the name to Shuai Chiao. David Chang, the grandson of Chang Tung Sheng, researched the history of Shuai Chiao for over one year in Taipei and discovered 87 different names used for Shuai Chiao.

Shuai Chiao achieved its highest level of development between the Ch’ing and Ming dynasties. There was a common saying at that time, “The instant you are touched you are thrown”. This referred to the high level of skill that existed among fighters. At that time in history, Shuai Chiao was primarily known by the name of “Kuai Chiao” – which translates as “Fast Wrestling”. By the late Qing Dynasty (1644 – 1911), 4 styles of Shuai Chiao were dominant in China – Mongolian, Beijing, Tien-Tsin, and Bao Ding. In Hebei province, Bao Ding Kuai Chiao was the prevalent system. Although there were numerous Shuai Chiao masters in Hebei, the most famous was Ping Jing Yi, who was born in 1830. His top student, Zhang Feng Yan (born in 1875), defeated the top Hsing-Yi fighter Li Quan-Yi at a major army conference in the early years of the Republic of China and was therefore acknowledged as a champion fighter. Chang Tung Sheng (born in 1908) was originally a neighborhood kid who started learning Shuai Chiao from Zhan Feng Yan while still a very young boy. By the time he was 19 years old, Chang Tung Sheng himself was already famous for his Shuai Chiao. At age 25, he went on to win the 5th National Kuo Shu Tournament in Nanjing in 1933 before he joined the army. 15 years later he entered the 7th National Athletic Meet in Shanghai representing the army. At 40 years of age, he again won first place in the heavyweight division.

In China there are many regional dialects spoken (although written dialects all use the same Chinese characters). These dialects developed independently of each other due to China's long history, the size of the country, and geographic isolation of certain areas. In a similar fashion, regionally distinct styles of Shuai Chiao also evolved. As previously mentioned, the 4 primary styles of Shuai Chiao in existence by the late Qing Dynasty were Mongolian, Beijing, Tien-Tsin, and Bao Ding. However, within these primary styles existed variations of each. Bao Ding is a large city in Hebei province of Mainland China. At one time there were numerous Shuai Chiao masters there and consequently numerous variations of Bao Ding style Shuai Chiao developed. As David Chang explains, "Even in Bao Ding there were different variations of Bao Ding Kuai Chiao depending on which family system or Master you belonged to". Therefore, the Kuai Chiao of Grandmaster Chang Tung Sheng is unique from other systems that may go by the name of Kuai Chiao."

[SevenStar]

I would look at silat and the country of Burma for links on thai boxing.

sure, but you can't find anything definitive. of course, thais say it's all thai derrived. others point out burma due to it's similarities to bando. I have also seen claims from cambodia and southern china.

[SevenStar]

I don't really take this literally, although it might have a grain of truth in it as follows:

Judo was (partly) developed from Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Jujutsu, which in turn evolved from Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu.

Yoshin Ryu was founded around 1600 or so, by a doctor called Akiyama, who is rumoured to have travelled to China and learned some fighting techniques there.

Could it have been Shuai Chiao that he learned in China? Possibly. Although I really don't think it would look the same by the time Judo was developed.

judo was derived from three styles of jujutsu. you named two of them. the man you are referring to is said to have learned three techniques from a chinese master - not shuai chiao, and not an entire system - only three techniques.

there is another story stating that a man named chin gempin taught three locks to three japanese doctors, and they expanded the techniques and created the first three styles of jujutsu.

These are both just stories. Akiyama actually learned striking arts, so it is improbable that he was the source of japanese jujutsu.

the oldest documented jujutsu school was in the early 1500's - like 1520 - 80 years prior to the akiyama story and also before gempin.

[north star]

sure, but you can't find anything definitive. of course, thais say it's all thai derrived. others point out burma due to it's similarities to bando. I have also seen claims from cambodia and southern china.

The origins of Muay Thai are from Cambodia, or the Khmer Empire.

Back in its hey day, around the 13th-14th century, the Khmer empire was at its peak, governing Thailand, Vietnam and Laos. These countries were not independant of Khmer government until the decline of Angkor (whose temples depict the original 'Thai boxing'). Thus, the culture of Thailand and Laos were very strongly influenced by the Khmers, not only martial arts but also language, etc.

Angkor Wat, 1000 year old temples which still stand and have some very interesting bas reliefs, but to keep it relevant, there are reliefs of people fighting and wrestling.

No one's really sure of it's origins. At the time Khmer culture drew heavily from Indian culture and China has records of an emissary (I forget his name), so not sure if the Chinese influenced it before then.

Being the country that developed the most quickly in south-east Asia, Thailand claimed the art was theirs and the rest is history, though a revival of the Khmer arts (traditional and sport) is happening.

Like Akronviper said, countries will re-write their histories to have nothing to do with other countries.

The Spaniards depicted themselves fighting the Filipinos armed with swords (not true, as far as I understand).

And I believe Japan shielded its younger generation from the Nanking massacre.

Etc ... I hope this post doesn't make me out to be politically anal ... I'm not, promise :D

[SevenStar]

The origins of Muay Thai are from Cambodia, or the Khmer Empire.

Back in its hey day, around the 13th-14th century, the Khmer empire was at its peak, governing Thailand, Vietnam and Laos. These countries were not independant of Khmer government until the decline of Angkor (whose temples depict the original 'Thai boxing'). Thus, the culture of Thailand and Laos were very strongly influenced by the Khmers, not only martial arts but also language, etc.

Angkor Wat, 1000 year old temples which still stand and have some very interesting bas reliefs, but to keep it relevant, there are reliefs of people fighting and wrestling.

No one's really sure of it's origins. At the time Khmer culture drew heavily from Indian culture and China has records of an emissary (I forget his name), so not sure if the Chinese influenced it before then.

Being the country that developed the most quickly in south-east Asia, Thailand claimed the art was theirs and the rest is history, though a revival of the Khmer arts (traditional and sport) is happening.

yeah, angkor wat is on my list of places to check out one day. That is one of the histories I've heard before. Of course, that conflicts with every other story out there - like the one that it is actually descended from wing chun...


Like Akronviper said, countries will re-write their histories to have nothing to do with other countries.

yeah, true.


The Spaniards depicted themselves fighting the Filipinos armed with swords (not true, as far as I understand).


maybe they did that to draw a connection between themselves and escrima. I doubt it, but who knows...