So who are You Training?

[Mas Judt]

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/186582.php

[Black Jack II]

Ah, Silat Mubai

The jihad friendly peeps, its not really hard to see where his propaganda leans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMa_2boDqms

[SevenStar]

kinda makes you think...

[PangQuan]

i love it:

"If you get hurt dont complain to us, shut up and take it like a man"


seriously though. i can kind of see this, i mean muslim peoples have been fighting in real conflict for a very very very very very very very long time. many modern day muslims have been fighting since they were children.

should be some info round those parts that have some good material...

[David Jamieson]

i love it:

"If you get hurt dont complain to us, shut up and take it like a man"


seriously though. i can kind of see this, i mean muslim peoples have been fighting in real conflict for a very very very very very very very long time. many modern day muslims have been fighting since they were children.

should be some info round those parts that have some good material...

I gotta lotta muslims in my neighbourhood who haven't fought a day in their lives and spend a lot less time thinking about the conflict in the middle east than one might think. :p

also, you might want to think about this as you study your kungfu a lot of which is muslim martial arts from china and quite a lot of the rest was spread out to rebels that were also anti government.

this article is mere alarmist drivel and the young guys marketing their stuff are just using category killing methods. :p

[Mas Judt]

He's teaching a mix of phillipino methods with some silat and IMA concepts. Actually, it looks pretty decent to me. I just remember who thier knives are pointed at however...

[PangQuan]

I gotta lotta muslims in my neighbourhood who haven't fought a day in their lives and spend a lot less time thinking about the conflict in the middle east than one might think. :p

but they arent the ones doing MA training. so in general i am speaking about the muslims that do and are actively involved in combat.

i got a lot of every type of person in my neighborhood.

[David Jamieson]

He's teaching a mix of phillipino methods with some silat and IMA concepts. Actually, it looks pretty decent to me. I just remember who thier knives are pointed at however...

dude, you got americans not far from you who would kill you for your stash.

truth is, americans are more likely to be killed by their fellow americans than anyone else.

[David Jamieson]

just to really point it out and because i'm feeling churlish about this kind of propagandist writing.

Since war began (3/19/03):3334 American Service people have died. Of those 2727 have died in combat.

The murder rate in the usa in 1960 was 9,110. fluctuating through the years, the stats in 2005 show the us murder rate to be: 16,692

in other words, you have an even chance of getting offed at home, if not a better chance of it if you live in the usa.

check out the other crime stats compiled into this easy peasy list.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

shocking ain't it? certainly puts things in perspective and tears the insulation off ones brain a little. :p

[Mas Judt]

David,
I understand your point. However, it is very much like sticking your head in the sand. Every Friday, around the world (including here) Jihad theology is taught. On TV all across the Middle east this vileness is taught not only on religous programs but in kids cartoons.

Do all Muslims subscribe to this? No. Do they speak out against it? No. Because the answer to any challenge is violence.

Look at France or Britain. Look at Sweden, where there are now muslim - majority cities that the police will not even enter. Look at Holland and the murder of Van Goghs grandson in the name of Allah.

There is a statistic out there (And forgive me for not having it here) that shows at what point your Muslim community has to be before your culture starts to get wrapped up in the theology of violence.

There is an old saying - something like "You will know them by the fruits of thier labor."

Any group that supports killing in the name of religion should be shunned by civilized men.

[Black Jack II]

ISLAM = International Society of Liars And Murderers

Ok, that is a little harsh and maybe pretty unfair to a few but if there ever was a religion based on hate and uber violence.....:(

A religion of perpetual outrage and violence. It's followers have a dangerous preoccupation with death.


He's teaching a mix of phillipino methods with some silat and IMA concepts. Actually, it looks pretty decent to me.

Yeah, the silat is pretty good. They actually changed there name from silat mubai due to this kind of thing. Now its silat saraif or something.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCAb4-4-wNU

[GeneChing]

Next thing you know, Homeland Security will be shutting us down because we sell this (http://www.martialartsmart.net/dvd-zl010.html).

[David Jamieson]

Mas Judt -

I can appreciate the minutia of it, but I really want to drive home a point here about the article.

The article is about inspiring more fear.

Fear that is put out of balance when held up to reality.

There is no difference between a radical muslim and a radical christian, jew or maoist geurilla and so on.

The muslim thing is flavour of the day because it seems that some people need to feel justified in the killing of so many of them done on their taxpaying dime.

It is too easy to lose sight of the forest for the trees.

Every Sunday, people pray for revenge and people train to kill others daily.

The article is propagation of further drivel imho.

[Black Jack II]

The muslim thing is flavour of the day because it seems that some people need to feel justified in the killing of so many of them done on their taxpaying dime.

:rolleyes:

That makes as much sense as vodka tonics at a church social.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

There is no difference between a radical muslim and a radical christian, jew or maoist geurilla and so on.

Reply]
Except that the radical Muslems are recuting youth form under the age of 5, they have fully armed armies, training in military camps around th world, and are bent on world conversion, domination or distruction. NO ONE ELSE, radical or not, is engaged in actively training troops for ALL OUT WAR, and wide scale brainwashing of raw hate into it's soldiers starting at the youngest of ages....in fact, no other radical religious group even HAS soldiers, let alone on the scale of radical Muslems.

Get ur head out of the sand!

[David Jamieson]

There is no difference between a radical muslim and a radical christian, jew or maoist geurilla and so on.

Reply]
Except that the radical Muslems are recuting youth form under the age of 5, they have fully armed armies, training in military camps around th world, and are bent on world conversion, domination or distruction. NO ONE ELSE, radical or not, is engaged in actively training troops for ALL OUT WAR, and wide scale brainwashing of raw hate into it's soldiers starting at the youngest of ages....in fact, no other radical religious group even HAS soldiers, let alone on the scale of radical Muslems.

Get ur head out of the sand!

maybe not religious, but you do realize that... ah nevermind, you and others like you are looking to convert others to your own brand of hatred as exhibited in your tirade there. :p

since when does religion being the drive of change any different from corporate or globalist interest?

I'm not certain I m the one with my head in the sand. :p

[MasterKiller]

There is no difference between a radical muslim and a radical christian, jew or maoist geurilla and so on.

Reply]
Except that the radical Muslems are recuting youth form under the age of 5, they have fully armed armies, training in military camps around th world, and are bent on world conversion, domination or distruction. NO ONE ELSE, radical or not, is engaged in actively training troops for ALL OUT WAR, and wide scale brainwashing of raw hate into it's soldiers starting at the youngest of ages....in fact, no other radical religious group even HAS soldiers, let alone on the scale of radical Muslems.

Get ur head out of the sand!

Um....Jesus Camp, anyone?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

How many numbers does the Jesus Camp have? What types of armourments? How many training camps, what age do they start brain washing?

Do they have armies that train inside oter nations? Do they and support from other sovergn nations for thier cause?

[Mas Judt]

Frankly, there is a problem here. A significant part of it is te inability of non-murderous Muslims to disavow this behavior - due to the nature of the umma, and the history of this 'radicalism' as standard orthodox belleif.

I did not comer to this position out of any kind of rage or hatred, but from study. And studying with devout Muslims to understand their thinking. We should be afraid, very afraid, because threat has been a constant from the day Islam got started.

But, you can call me a bigot or hateful or whatever, but honestly, I'm not. My personal beleifs leave me no room for hate. However, we should prepare ourselves, because they are coming because 'god' tells them it is okay to kill, rape, steal, lie and oppress. Oh goody - all religions are wonderful, aren't they?

[Mas Judt]

David,
I don't think you can draw a comparison between Maoist guerillas and the Muslim craziness. For one thing, Maoists don't have a billion followers - and a worldwide network of 'religous centers' that teach hatred and murder.

If you think that is an extreme position, come to Chicago and I'll take you around a few local mosques and you can see for yourself. It is astounding.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

because they are coming because 'god' tells them it is okay to kill, rape, steal, lie and oppress. Oh goody - all religions are wonderful, aren't they?

Reply]
From my limited understanding it's actually worst than just being Ok if they want to, they are SUPPOSED to do that to anyone who cannot be converted. It's a Duty, not just something that is Ok...

[Mas Judt]

"since when does religion being the drive of change any different from corporate or globalist interest? "

And what change would that be exactly?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

If you think that is an extreme position, come to Chicago and I'll take you around a few local mosques and you can see for yourself. It is astounding.

Reply]
I may be interested in doing the tour with you. Just to see first hand how bad it is.

[David Jamieson]

"since when does religion being the drive of change any different from corporate or globalist interest? "

And what change would that be exactly?

do you mean what is the difference of change?

Like what changes would globalist or corporate interests be as opposed to changes called upon by a given church, mosque, temple, religious following etc etc?

All groups are fully capable of bad decisions within. Schism occurs in many groups eventually as people vi for power within the group.

Anyway, take Mexico city for instance, they just decriminalized abortion in the city limits so as to reduce the health risks and such with the pregnant women who were getting the abortions anyway via the underground.

The cardinal of Mexico supported by the pope had the city council of Mexico city threatened with excommunication if they allowed this to occur.

so, the church is willing to risk the lives of the women who have first term abortions. and they are also willing to try and wield political influence which is even more of a murky bit of water seeing as the separation of church from state is fundamental to the success of a capitalist democracy.

for corporate interests, we can look to the arms dealers. mostly the small arms dealers who spend their time running around in the desert with a couple of trucks loaded up with guns and what not to supply some other warlords forces.

I'm pretty sure the Taliban doesn't make their guns themselves, even though there is a lot of press on a particular pakistani town where they make their own guns. Point being, the terrorist threat are not shooting flintlocks they are often using state of the art weaponry and obviously they have access to and knowledge how to build more powerful explosives.

Second point being, ordinance is finite. So where are these threats getting their weapons from but from the very countries and citizens they are a threat to! It's ridiculous really when you boil it down to the thick murky broth it really is.

The Globalists want hard and fast rules that inevitably will screw one country out of it's resource and the money for it eventually because the movement can't deal with subsidization within sovereign territories so it wants to break down sovereignity and have a global centralized government. Which it is still uncertain as to whether or not this would be a good thing for us. So far every time the concept has been approached over the period of written history, the larger the society, the more likely it was to collapse on itself for lack of egalitarianism.

The biggest threat is not a ****ed off guy half a world away. It's the guy that's arming him. It's the guy who lets the other guy arm him.

Besides, the escalation in ill will towards the american sentiment is almost entirely americas own fault if not for certain it's own fault. An opportunity turned to a pre-emptive strike on a nation on it's knees, scapegoated to "faulty intelligence" and yet, continued anyway into some indefinite future that on one hand shouldn't have happened had the intelligence actually been intelligent and if anyone knew the difference between the value of words vs the value of actions.

that's enough typing for me, i am going to have a nice cup of tea. :p

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Question, is there any more or less slaughtering over there now, or when Saddam ran things?

[David Jamieson]

Question, is there any more or less slaughtering over there now, or when Saddam ran things?

Not really an answer - While Saddam was ruling Iraq following the first gulf war, the Rwanda massacre occured. Millions died. This apparently doesn't concern you vs the barbaric treatment someone received in an arab prison?

If you want to reference the Kurdish Gassing, that occured in the eighties with the chemicals themselves being supplied to saddam by the united states. the US and in all fairness, no one else reacted to this act of genocide.

Is it really a numbers game though? because if it's that, then again the US and the UK lose.

Not 1 Iraqi bomb has dropped on 1 house in America. Ever.

Small groups have been driven to ground and in a lot of cases, some militants have been martyred, unwisely I would add and therefore increasing the overall problem.

the middle eastern terror crisis has been exported to north america. some would say it's been imported. could be a little of both.

escalation and continued fear of that which is not understood on both sides of whats going on is not going to bring about any positive change though.

education would be the greatest sword to bring into the fray in the middle east.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

education would be the greatest sword to bring into the fray in the middle east

Reply]
Yeah, but little kids can't hear well when they are in the middle of thier temper tantrums. You just have to ignore them till it burns out of thier systems.

[David Jamieson]

education would be the greatest sword to bring into the fray in the middle east

Reply]
Yeah, but little kids can't hear well when they are in the middle of thier temper tantrums. You just have to ignore them till it burns out of thier systems.

It still doesn't help them when they calm down because they, as a people feel forced into whatever future they and the next generations are going to have to live in at the dictates of a government that is not their own and that took military action against them pre-emptively. That doesn't just go out of the mind. Even on kids in the midst of temper tantrums due to some trauma. It will come back and bite you in the ass later.

The point being that there will be even more of these types of camps training to destroy whatever so long as they perceive they are being unfairly destroyed themselves. There is a severe lack of even ability to accurately communicate between the nations involved. It's like they don't even try.

[Mas Judt]

Yep. Germany & Japan have been a world pf trouble since WW2. And the South since the civil war...

Oh wait... gosh David history demonstrates otherwise. But lets not let facts interfere with our POV...

[Black Jack II]

If anyone is to get a bit of the blame for this blunder, its the Iraqi people for not stepping up to the plate, for any society to live in terror some part of it has to be accepting and sit back on its haunches.

Look at the Kurds, doing great, look at Kuwait, doing fine.

[dougadam]

At present I am training my dog bear. He is a 5 week old german shepard chow mix. And I am amazed at how fast he is learning.

[David Jamieson]

Yep. Germany & Japan have been a world pf trouble since WW2. And the South since the civil war...

Oh wait... gosh David history demonstrates otherwise. But lets not let facts interfere with our POV...

the implementation of the Marshall plan vs what is going on in the here and now is practically the same thing as a break in cognitive recognition.

They are so vastly and entirely different in action and in spirit.

btw and fwiw, you would be hard pressed to not see a confederate flag still flying freely in a lot of place of the southern states.

Germany and japan at the end of ww2 were both in a completely different circumstances and in the simplest of possible terms, they surrendered after making major war against the allied nations and those nations that did not wish to support worldwide fascist / socialist dominance.

So, in effect the world was divided up, the governments of the countries that signed the treaties signed a plan to restore each of those countries to self supporting entities and participants in international laws.

there is no such plan in play with what America is involved in right now and any plan that would be designed like the Marshall plan wouldn't be put on the table with the same variables at play.

the attack on Iraq was a pre-emptive strike that the wh admin has admitted itself is unjustified by letting it be known that the intelligence was inadequate etc etc.

In short they have admitted they are at war wrongly, but they are continuing on with it anyway at the whim of the administration.

anyway, it's a whole different pan of flan what was then and what is now. the comparisons to the struggle of the second world war are a bit of a stretch.

[Mas Judt]

David,
You are so all over the place, it is difficult to know what to respond to. However, the differences are not so great. remember, the challenges in Iraq (mostly muslim on muslim violence as they busily declare each other heretics and kuffars and following the religion proceed to kill each other. How depressing) are starkly mirrored by the successes. Iraqi Kurdistan is a stunning success and an example of creating a more open and democratic society in a region known for it's religous despots. Prior to the war, the Kurds were being exterminated by Saddam and his Baath party. Today they are free and thankful. I suppose you would rather the Kurds were left to die at saddams hands...

Oh, and you missed a few important points: the Germans, Japanese and even the South suffered under total war - mass killing of the civilian population. This was not done in Iraq.

and two; In both japan & Germany there were 'insurgents' causing a ruckus for years after the war. Not on the scale we see in Iraq (the insurgents did not have governments backing them) - but insurgents nonetheless.

Regardless, we are faced with a war and hate preaching religion - and we refuse to face it for what it is...

[Mas Judt]

Somehow i think you would defend the early Nazis or Communists the same way... they haven't killed THAT many people... so what if they actively preach hate and war... they haven't done us that much harm....

[David Jamieson]

David,
You are so all over the place, it is difficult to know what to respond to. However, the differences are not so great. remember, the challenges in Iraq (mostly muslim on muslim violence as they busily declare each other heretics and kuffars and following the religion proceed to kill each other. How depressing) are starkly mirrored by the successes. Iraqi Kurdistan is a stunning success and an example of creating a more open and democratic society in a region known for it's religous despots. Prior to the war, the Kurds were being exterminated by Saddam and his Baath party. Today they are free and thankful. I suppose you would rather the Kurds were left to die at saddams hands...

Oh, and you missed a few important points: the Germans, Japanese and even the South suffered under total war - mass killing of the civilian population. This was not done in Iraq.

and two; In both japan & Germany there were 'insurgents' causing a ruckus for years after the war. Not on the scale we see in Iraq (the insurgents did not have governments backing them) - but insurgents nonetheless.

Regardless, we are faced with a war and hate preaching religion - and we refuse to face it for what it is...

I don't think I'm all over the place. I think you made an attempt at making equal the implementation of the marshall plan in germany and japan with what is going on in Iraq. They are utterly different. Surely you are able to see that.

Mass killing of the civilian population in Iraq has indeed occured, but because of the convenience of not counting the collateral damage that isn't your own, it's easy to gloss over that? Estimates of civvy deaths in Iraq range from 40k to over 100k. That si not including insurgents and that is not including resistance in the original attack by the UK and the US.

No I wouldn't defend nazis. The point I am trying to make and I'll reiterate it again.

1)America attacked Iraq.

2)America admitted it did it under false pretext and therefor admitted that what they are doing is wrong.

3)Iraq never attacked America and nevre had plans to do so.

4)Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11

5)America is fanning the flames of hatred onto itself through its own actions and inaction.

6) trying to blame the islamic faith for the woes of America is erroneous.

[Mas Judt]

No, you are looking to change the argument to Iraq (much like the Bush admin, eh?).

If you go back through my posts, I do not defend the invasion (although there were plenty of legal reasons), but I do question the vile hatred and murderous behavior spread by the Islamic religion.

On a scond point, I demonstrated that the Kurds - who generally are more secular, are building a successful democracy, while the 'god-fearing' people around Bahdad are murdering each other - in the name of god and following the instructions in the Quran - with considerable alacrity.

You cannot deny the historical link to Islam and murderous barbaric warlike behavior. It is plain to see in Quran and the Hadith. - and often held up as a model of behavior. Just becase it is a religion that threatens to kill you if you stand up to thier insaniity doesn't mean you should cave in and cower in fear David. Try standing up like a man.

[laugarkuen]

6) trying to blame the islamic faith for the woes of America is erroneous.

And yet very useful in distracting people from thinking for themselves :eek:

[laugarkuen]

No, you are looking to change the argument to Iraq (much like the Bush admin, eh?).

If you go back through my posts, I do not defend the invasion (although there were plenty of legal reasons), but I do question the vile hatred and murderous behavior spread by the Islamic religion.

On a scond point, I demonstrated that the Kurds - who generally are more secular, are building a successful democracy, while the 'god-fearing' people around Bahdad are murdering each other - in the name of god and following the instructions in the Quran - with considerable alacrity.

You cannot deny the historical link to Islam and murderous barbaric warlike behavior. It is plain to see in Quran and the Hadith. - and often held up as a model of behavior. Just becase it is a religion that threatens to kill you if you stand up to thier insaniity doesn't mean you should cave in and cower in fear David. Try standing up like a man.

Replace Quran with Bible and Islam with Chrisitanity in your biggoted ramblings and it makes just as much sence.

Maybe you should stop spreading your misunderstanding and fear of a religion (that is as open to interpretation as any other) and be a man :rolleyes:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You can't really replace like that though, the Bible does not say to go slaughter those who don't conform to your religious whims. The Koran does, and makes that type of violent thought and behavior a core part of it's teachings.

Bible : Eye for an Eye, turn the other cheek.

This means that the punishment should not be excessive, and fit the crime, and one should ignor when others insult you (Slap is a physical insult) during the heat of anger for the sake of peace.



Koran: Destroy the infidels, Destroy the infedels, destroy the infedels!!

This means that if they cannot convert others to their religion, then they are duty bound to slaughter them. This means if YOU do not wish to imerse yourself in the Muslim/islamic religion, and you prefer to follow Christian, Budhist, Taoist or even Wiccain teachings or even just be an Athiest. If you don't subjegate yourself to *THIER* will, then YOU are an infedel, and must be destroyed (Killed, Murdered, slaughtered etc...)

Muslim/Islam is truely a Satanic religion full of hate, and violent destructive teachings masked as noble religion.

[Mega-Foot]

Bible : Eye for an Eye, turn the other cheek.

This means that the punishment should not be excessive, and fit the crime, and one should ignor when others insult you (Slap is a physical insult) during the heat of anger for the sake of peace.



Koran: Destroy the infidels, Destroy the infedels, destroy the infedels!!

This means that if they cannot convert others to their religion, then they are duty bound to slaughter them. This means if YOU do not wish to imerse yourself in the Muslim/islamic religion, and you prefer to follow Christian, Budhist, Taoist or even Wiccain teachings or even just be an Athiest. If you don't subjegate yourself to *THIER* will, then YOU are an infedel, and must be destroyed (Killed, Murdered, slaughtered etc...)

Muslim/Islam is truely a Satanic religion full of hate, and violent destructive teachings masked as noble religion.


Both credos apply to the fabulous art of Shao-lin Ninjitsu, of which I am 8th Dan. Yet there is a compassion behind it, which can be seen in our dissection of the Diamond Sutra and our memorization of it.

We have been accused by local authorities in Los Angeles as a corrupting power (satanic, some papers have said), for our "mind control", and other such lambasting fictionalizations of the truth--as if they could ever percieve it, what with their inferior understandings (or complete ignorance of) the Diamond Sutra.

I think RD Alias 1A's response is indicative of the narrow-mindedness rampant in the uneducated "elite" of the general populace.

I urge you to PM me so that you can attain enlightenment.

Thank you,

Sifu John Takeshi

[laugarkuen]

You can't really replace like that though, the Bible does not say to go slaughter those who don't conform to your religious whims. The Koran does, and makes that type of violent thought and behavior a core part of it's teachings.

Bible : Eye for an Eye, turn the other cheek.

This means that the punishment should not be excessive, and fit the crime, and one should ignor when others insult you (Slap is a physical insult) during the heat of anger for the sake of peace.



Koran: Destroy the infidels, Destroy the infedels, destroy the infedels!!

This means that if they cannot convert others to their religion, then they are duty bound to slaughter them. This means if YOU do not wish to imerse yourself in the Muslim/islamic religion, and you prefer to follow Christian, Budhist, Taoist or even Wiccain teachings or even just be an Athiest. If you don't subjegate yourself to *THIER* will, then YOU are an infedel, and must be destroyed (Killed, Murdered, slaughtered etc...)

Muslim/Islam is truely a Satanic religion full of hate, and violent destructive teachings masked as noble religion.

and yet none have tried to convert me. None have tried to harm me in the name of their religion. Christians have. The Muslims I have known have all been kind and good people with alot more respect in their households than in most christian houses.

The Muslim teachers I have met have all been very learned, intelligent human beings that have only preached peace and following the Quran. This is not to say there are no bad muslims or that Islam is perfect. The main trouble with it is that it was written by humans (I know muslims would disagree with that) and interpreted by humans.

Therefore it is open to abuse and mis-understandings leading to cruelty in tragic acts. This is a problem with all religions that do not start and end with do no harm and respect all beings.

Gotta go settle my son now.

Back later.

[Mega-Foot]

Yeah, and God didn't write the Bible....:rolleyes:

[laugarkuen]

Yeah, and God didn't write the Bible....:rolleyes:


You mean it's not god's autobiography? :eek:

I still think the bible needs a disclaimer at the beginning like the one mentioned on a Red Dwarf episode. All charactors mentioned are fictional....

[David Jamieson]

No, you are looking to change the argument to Iraq (much like the Bush admin, eh?).

If you go back through my posts, I do not defend the invasion (although there were plenty of legal reasons), but I do question the vile hatred and murderous behavior spread by the Islamic religion.

On a scond point, I demonstrated that the Kurds - who generally are more secular, are building a successful democracy, while the 'god-fearing' people around Bahdad are murdering each other - in the name of god and following the instructions in the Quran - with considerable alacrity.

You cannot deny the historical link to Islam and murderous barbaric warlike behavior. It is plain to see in Quran and the Hadith. - and often held up as a model of behavior. Just becase it is a religion that threatens to kill you if you stand up to thier insaniity doesn't mean you should cave in and cower in fear David. Try standing up like a man.

well actually Mas Judt, if you go back through the thread it was you who started to bring in the variable of the Iraq war. Seeing as it is the primary Muslim Nation that is under the shadow of the guns of America, it only makes sense that we talk about how Muslim might want to avenge something through the camps due to Americas and the U K's actions there in that country.

I suppose we could bring up how American and British foreign policy isn't helping the matters in anyway in how it regards the Palestinian question and how it will turn a blind eye to the atrocities of one nation in favour of pointing out the indiscretions of another.

I suppose I could bring up any number of angles on the argument. these are just the glaringly obvious ones that are more than connected to the idea floated in the thread though.

[Mega-Foot]

You mean it's not god's autobiography? :eek:

I still think the bible needs a disclaimer at the beginning like the one mentioned on a Red Dwarf episode. All charactors mentioned are fictional....

Why would you say something so slanderous?

Excuse me for disagreeing, but God inspired the authors of the Bible to write His Story. Get it? History.

Why can't you respect others' opinions? Clearly, what you have said is wrong, libelous, and meant to hurt the feelings of others who are better informed than yourself on this subject.

[Sang Feng Fan]

1)America attacked Iraq.

2)America admitted it did it under false pretext and therefor admitted that what they are doing is wrong.

3)Iraq never attacked America and nevre had plans to do so.

4)Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11

5)America is fanning the flames of hatred onto itself through its own actions and inaction.

6) trying to blame the islamic faith for the woes of America is erroneous.

a. Iraq violated violated it's people, international treaties, refused to comply with inspection, financed terrorism abroad and got herself invaded.

b. America invaded because of the sanction violations, while the press pushed the subject of weapons of mass destruction to the foreground to make money off of fear.

c. Terror groups financed by Iraq have attacked American interests and citizens abroad for over 20 years.

d. Iraq had little to do with 9-11 aside from funding and since they were invaded for violating sanctions bringing up 9-11 is only important as a war drum song or leftist whining point.

e. The military, civilian and government of Iraq all have a completely different view of the war than that painted by the media.

f. Trying to blame America, USA, for the woes of Islam ignores that the West has suffered from unprovoked terrorist attacks since the fifties. Lebanon, Libya, Syria, Egypt, Somalia, Iraq and Iran have all committed acts of war against the USA/England/Germany/Israel and each other over 60 years and Iraq was the first to taste any justice.

[Black Jack II]

Excellent post Sang Feng Fan.

But like most logic it will fall on deaf ears.

[charp choi]

David,
I understand your point. However, it is very much like sticking your head in the sand. Every Friday, around the world (including here) Jihad theology is taught. On TV all across the Middle east this vileness is taught not only on religous programs but in kids cartoons.

Look at France or Britain. Look at Sweden, where there are now muslim - majority cities that the police will not even enter. Look at Holland and the murder of Van Goghs grandson in the name of Allah.


There is an old saying - something like "You will know them by the fruits of thier labor."

A.

Hi, I live in Britain and we have NO muslim majority cities that the police will not even enter. My sis lives in Sweden and I visit there 3 times a year and guess what? Same thing NO muslim majority cities again.
AS we say here you are talking cobblers mate. Get your facts right before you post 'em.

All I see is a fair bit of bigoted paranoia.

[charp choi]

Why would you say something so slanderous?

Excuse me for disagreeing, but God inspired the authors of the Bible to write His Story. Get it? History.

Did he?

say's who?

[lkfmdc]

There are nuts and fanatics in every religion, historically it seems to run in cycles. During the "crusades" the wack jobs were Christians...

Has very little to do with the religion, most of these morons don't even know much about their religion, they just nod their heads at what they are told

Is Islam anti-Jewish? Mohammed himself lived next door to Jews in Medina and his children and their children played together and the families were friends.

Did Mohammed teach cutting off the heads of captices? Hardly, he mandated they be treated like guests in your home until a ransom to return them

More violence and evil has been done in the name of religion than any other cause PERIOD

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Hmm, how much violence has been cause by Satan?

[charp choi]

There are nuts and fanatics in every religion, historically it seems to run in cycles. During the "crusades" the wack jobs were Christians...

Has very little to do with the religion, most of these morons don't even know much about their religion, they just nod their heads at what they are told

Is Islam anti-Jewish? Mohammed himself lived next door to Jews in Medina and his children and their children played together and the families were friends.

Did Mohammed teach cutting off the heads of captices? Hardly, he mandated they be treated like guests in your home until a ransom to return them

More violence and evil has been done in the name of religion than any other cause PERIOD

the key phrase is ISLAMIC EXTREMISM

In society this occurs. Does it mean all muslims are such? No.

[charp choi]

There are nuts and fanatics in every religion, historically it seems to run in cycles. During the "crusades" the wack jobs were Christians...

Has very little to do with the religion, most of these morons don't even know much about their religion, they just nod their heads at what they are told

Is Islam anti-Jewish? Mohammed himself lived next door to Jews in Medina and his children and their children played together and the families were friends.

Did Mohammed teach cutting off the heads of captices? Hardly, he mandated they be treated like guests in your home until a ransom to return them

More violence and evil has been done in the name of religion than any other cause PERIOD

Hooray! Sense at last.
the key phrase is ISLAMIC EXTREMISM

In society this occurs. Does it mean all muslims are such? No.

[Scott R. Brown]

Since war began (3/19/03):3334 American Service people have died. Of those 2727 have died in combat.

The murder rate in the usa....16,692

in other words, you have an even chance of getting offed at home, if not a better chance of it if you live in the usa.

Hi David,

You are incorrect here. According to your death rates:

Based upon an approximate soldier population in Iraq of 250,000, one has about a 1.09% of dying. The percentage is actually higher because not all soldiers are in or move about the danger zones.

Based upon an approximate population of 700 million one has about a .00238% chance of being murdered in the U.S.A.

Perhaps doing some simple math first would help!;)

[David Jamieson]

a. Iraq violated violated it's people, international treaties, refused to comply with inspection, financed terrorism abroad and got herself invaded.

b. America invaded because of the sanction violations, while the press pushed the subject of weapons of mass destruction to the foreground to make money off of fear. I'm sorry, you are incorrect. This is what they may be saying, but america pre-emptively invaded based on the pretext that Irawq had WMD. Which they did not

c. Terror groups financed by Iraq have attacked American interests and citizens abroad for over 20 years. can you indicate any solid evidence of that? I believe it's been found that this is not true. The terror groups get their financing from all over, even from within America itself

d. Iraq had little to do with 9-11 aside from funding and since they were invaded for violating sanctions bringing up 9-11 is only important as a war drum song or leftist whining point. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 period. The greatets number of the terrorist accused of it were Saudi citizens

e. The military, civilian and government of Iraq all have a completely different view of the war than that painted by the media. and you are one of these? you share this different view? what is that diferent view? does it have anything to do with the fall of the government and the spiral into civil war? what are you saying here?

f. Trying to blame America, USA, for the woes of Islam ignores that the West has suffered from unprovoked terrorist attacks since the fifties. Lebanon, Libya, Syria, Egypt, Somalia, Iraq and Iran have all committed acts of war against the USA/England/Germany/Israel and each other over 60 years and Iraq was the first to taste any justice. I don't think I'm blaming America exclusively. I am saying taht American foreign policy in the region has consistently failed the peoples of the region yet america benefits despite the strife of others.

Your points are mostly invalid although slightly long winded. I find them odd.


Hi David,

You are incorrect here. According to your death rates:

Based upon an approximate soldier population in Iraq of 250,000, one has about a 1.09% of dying. The percentage is actually higher because not all soldiers are in or move about the danger zones.

Based upon an approximate population of 700 million one has about a .00238% chance of being murdered in the U.S.A.

Perhaps doing some simple math first would help!;)

I'm not stating odds Scott. I am pointing out something to give perspective. You are simply skewing it by pointing at my incorrect odds.

the data are correct in regards to the numbers of people in the usa who died by another Americans hands vs your chances of getting killed in the occupation. My main point was that each of you has a better chance of being killed by an American than by an Iraqi insurgent.

It is clear that many of you are incapable of reconciling with yourselves the fundamental error in thinking that is presented in the first post here. And frankly, I'm ok with that and even expected it. Especially here where sentimentalist emotional alarmism on the topic runs rampant every now and then.

I am more than a little surprised that even though there has been a big push in getting the facts straight, many are hanging onto the myths and lies they were fed in '03 by the then Bush administration. What can we say about thiose folks though other than they are likely an active part of the problem more so than a small part of the solution.

anyway, gotta go to work. :)

[Scott R. Brown]

Is Islam anti-Jewish? Mohammed himself lived next door to Jews in Medina and his children and their children played together and the families were friends.

Did Mohammed teach cutting off the heads of captices? Hardly, he mandated they be treated like guests in your home until a ransom to return them

Hi lkfmdc,

You have missed some facts here:

1) Mohammed killed and assassinated the Jews of Medina who ridiculed him or Islam and then ran most of them out of town and confiscated their property. The tribe Banu Ḳuraiẓa was the only tribe left. Mohammed concocted a reason to attack them. After a siege he killed all the men (by be-heading) and enslaved all the women and children.

2) He then exterminated the Jewish community of Quraiza approximately 600-900 men (by be-heading) and once again enslaved the women and children.

3) Following that he killed some Jews (by be-heading) who had fled to the oasis of Khaibar after enticing them to negotiate a treaty.

4) After the death of Mohammed Omar the caliph instituted dhimmi law. If a non-muslim broke the law he was subject to death or persecution:

a) Dhimmitude is the status that Islamic law, the Sharia, mandates for non-Muslims, primarily Jews and Christians. Dhimmis, "protected people," are free to practice their religion in a Sharia regime, but are made subject to a number of humiliating regulations designed to enforce the Qur'an's command that they "feel themselves subdued" (Sura 9:29).

b) Non-Muslims paid a fifty-percent "tribute," or tax
.
c) Jews and Christians were forced to wear a distinctive (sometimes dark blue or black) habit with sash; compelled to wear a yellow piece of cloth [this is where the Nazi's got the idea by the way!] as a badge (blue for Christians);

d) Dhimmis were forbidden to touch the Qur'an and not allowed to perform their religious practices in public;

e) Dhimmis were not allowed to own a horse because horses were deemed noble;

f) Dhimmis were not permitted to drink wine in public;

g) Dhimmis were required to bury their dead without letting their grief be heard by the Muslims;

h) If Dhimmis complained about their inferior status, institutionalized humiliation, or poverty, their masters voided their contract and regarded them as enemies of Islam, fair game as objects of violence;

i) Dhimmis had no legal rights. They could not testify in court against a Muslim and had no legal right to dispute or challenge anything done to them by Muslims. There is no such thing as a Muslim raping a non-Muslim woman; there is no such thing as a Muslim murdering a a non-Muslim (at most, it can be manslaughter). In contrast, a non-Muslim who strikes a Muslim is killed.

j) Dhimmis were generally cowed into silence and worse. It was almost unheard-of to find Dhimmis speaking out against their oppressors; to do so would have been suicide. (Kind of like how today even moderate Muslims are afraid to speak out against the Islamists for fear of being murdered.)

[Scott R. Brown]

I'm not stating odds Scott. I am pointing out something to give perspective. You are simply skewing it by pointing at my incorrect odds.

The data are correct in regards to the numbers of people in the usa who died by another Americans hands vs your chances of getting killed in the occupation. My main point was that each of you has a better chance of being killed by an American than by an Iraqi insurgent.

Nice try David, you said:


in other words, you have an even chance of getting offed at home, if not a better chance of it if you live in the usa.

You don't understand that what you have said is that the chances are greater for getting murdered in the U.S. than dying in Iraq. This is clearly NOT the case. If this was not your intent then you should have been more precise!

If your intent is to say that Americans in general have a better chance of being killed by another American than an Islamist terrorist then you were very unclear. However, an American has a greater chance of being killed in Iraq than in America and that was my point!


I am more than a little surprised that even though there has been a big push in getting the facts straight, many are hanging onto the myths and lies they were fed in '03 by the then Bush administration. What can we say about those folks though other than they are likely an active part of the problem more so than a small part of the solution.

It is you that is foolishly hanging onto the myths and lies, David. You have not studied the facts very well and have fallen prey to the anti-Bush re-writers of history. This has been the Liberal method for decades, that is, smear your opponent with lies then repeat them until the dim-witted public believes them. Liberals have no ideas or solutions; their solution to every problem is to lie and whine.

Everything Sang Feng Fan has said is accurate and well said! Stating it is "long-winded" is back to your old foolishness of "attacking the man" and not addressing the argument.

Forget that the Clinton administration, the U.N. and most or all intelligence services around the world believed that Saddam had WMD's; Forget that they believed this years BEFORE Bush took office, thus negating the assertion that Bush lied.

A lie is an intentional telling of a falsehood. For the MINOR inclusion of the WMD's in his lengthy LIST of reasons for going into Iraq to be a lie you must demonstrate he KNEW before hand they were not there. This has not and cannot be demonstrated since EVERYONE else, EVEN the Clinton administration, thought they were there as well! Just because they have not been found does not mean they were not or are not there!

So who is the one following mythological truths here? The ones who see the clear logic that the belief in the existence of WMD's has neither been demonstrated to be false nor a lie, or the ones who blindly follow scurrilous media and liberal smears and the re-writing of history?

Forget WMD's were only ONE of the reasons that the Bush administration listed anyway! Who is ignoring established facts here? Try going back and reading his original speech! But to do so would shatter your own quaint little mythology wouldn't it?

Forget that Hillary gave a speech to Code Pink prior to the invasion stating her expertise and understanding of the matter, agreeing with Bush and giving support to the White House intelligence reports. I know you could look up the speech on the internet and find out for yourself, but that might shatter your own happy little world of ill-informed bias and ignorance!

Forget that a leading Iraqi General has publicly stated that the weapons were secreted out of Iraq to Syria BEFORE the war by the Russians. You could look that up as well, but I know you won't. That is because is it easier to have self-righteous pride in your own ignorance rather than risk informing yourself with facts that would demonstrate you to be pwned by the liars on the left.

Forget that America has not benefited by lower gas prices and that the major Iraqi oil contracts just last week or the week before were given to China, Russia and France. Thus negating the argument that Bush did it for oil.

I could go on, but I will leave you to your own mythology and allow others to join in the feeding frenzy!

Etc. so on an so forth, ibid ibid ibid and all that rot!!

[Scott R. Brown]

Ok I have a bit more time so I will take one more shot:


america pre-emptively invaded based on the pretext that Irawq had WMD. Which they did not

Wrong! It was one of a list of reasons. This was the reason that was focused on the most by the media and Bush haters thus giving the false impression that is was the only reason. Anyone paying attention at the time would know this. Don’t listen to the re-writers of history. Go back and read the Bush administration statements.


I believe it's been found that this is not true. The terror groups get their financing from all over, even from within America itself

Wrong again! It is well-known by those who are IMFORMED on the subject that Al-Zarqawi (sp?) was IN Iraq setting up and getting financing. Look it up yourself! It is easy to find! Yes, they also got financial support and material support else where. Al Qaeda is NOT a nation-state it is a belief system.


Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 period. The greatets number of the terrorist accused of it were Saudi citizens

Mis-information! We didn’t go into Iraq for the purpose of avenging 9-11. Again go back and read the statements by the Bush administration. Al Qaeda is a nation-less organization so your point is null concerning the majority being Saudis. It is likely they were easier to recruit because of the Wahabi organization there or perhaps because it was easier for Saudis to get into America. Our stated goal was to go after those who gave material support to terrorists and that included Saddam. This is well established by the presence of Al-Zarqawi in Iraq receiving financial and material support.


and you are one of these? you share this different view? what is that diferent view? does it have anything to do with the fall of the government and the spiral into civil war? what are you saying here?

In any society there are those who agree and disagree with any military action. In America only 33% of the settlers support the revolutionary war, 33% supported the British, and 33% chose to wait and see. If you are unaware of those who support our presence then you do not want to find them. This is merely accepting evidence that supports your preconceived view and ignoring evidence to the contrary. Just last week I read 4 or so articles on the net regarding the appreciation the Iraqi’s have for the American presence.

If you search you will find!


I am saying taht American foreign policy in the region has consistently failed the peoples of the region yet america benefits despite the strife of others.


EVERYONE’S foreign policy has failed in the region for millennia. We have suffered no other terrorist attacks on America since the war began. How many occurred with the “stick your head in the sand” Clinton administration? 3? 4? 5? I don’t remember, but it was more than none and more than two! Chaos always precedes Order. However, order must be imposed with a strong hand. You cannot reason with the unreasonable, you cannot reason with selfish, self-centered people. You cannot reach agreement with people who refuse to compromise. You cannot have a successful treaty with those who believe that any treaty with an infidel is non-binding.

As a last parting note: This weekend over 1 million Turks protested against the new Muslim president of Turkey. The country although primarily Muslim was set up with a secular government and they fear the Muslim powers in the government will impose dhimmi-like laws. The military is supporting the public. I recommend everyone look it up and read about it!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Forget that a leading Iraqi General has publicly stated that the weapons were secreted out of Iraq to Syria BEFORE the war by the Russians.

Reply]
I had heard this before, from a freind who fought in Falujia during the initial invasion when he returned home from his tour of duty. If this is the case, then I am sure the Syrians would use them if we went in there right?

[Black Jack II]

This has a lot to do with the specific religon. Show me anyplace in the world where Islam has power that you would want to honestly live in. Talk about a dysfunctional belief system built on strife and murder, almost anywhere it settles, from the Islamic ghettoes of Europe to the racism of the Islamic black American community, to its own very own birthplace, it is so flawed with violence anyone but the whiney apologetics can see how broke down it is.

[Sang Feng Fan]

Your points are mostly invalid although slightly long winded. I find them odd. :)

You 're inability to answer or deal with a single one give me the clear win.

In the future when you post lies about the USA, please take the time to back them up, otherwise you will continue to look like some ignorant guy from the backwoods of Canada.

[Black Jack II]

In the future when you post lies about the USA, please take the time to back them up,

He never has backed anything up so far, what's to make him start now. heh.:cool:

[Mas Judt]

For the poor chap who did not beleive me about Sweden, I suggest you visit Malmo. (And for the record, I never said Britain had a Muslim majority city.)

Sweden is one of the worst hit countries in Europe of Muslim immigration and Political Correctness. Now, the police themselves have publicly admitted that they no longer control one of Sweden's major cities. I have made some exclusive translations from Swedish media. They show the future of Eurabia unless Europeans wake up.

I’ve seen the future of Eurabia, and it’s called 'Sweden.' Malmø is Sweden’s third largest city, after Stockholm and Gothenburg. Once-peaceful Sweden, home of ABBA, IKEA and the Nobel Prize, is increasingly looking like the Middle East on a bad day.

All following links to major Swedish newspapers, with a brief translation:

http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,529910,00.html

Malmø, Sweden. The police now publicly admit what many Scandinavians have known for a long time: They no longer control the situation in the nations's third largest city. It is effectively ruled by violent gangs of Muslim immigrants. Some of the Muslims have lived in the area of Rosengård, Malmø, for twenty years, and still don't know how to read or write Swedish. Ambulance personnel are attacked by stones or weapons, and refuse to help anybody in the area without police escort. The immigrants also spit at them when they come to help. Recently, an Albanian youth was stabbed by an Arab, and was left bleeding to death on the ground while the ambulance waited for the police to arrive. The police themselves hesitate to enter parts of their own city unless they have several patrols, and need to have guards to watch their cars, otherwise they will be vandalized. "Something drastic has to be done, or much more blood will be spilled" says one of the locals.

http://w1.sydsvenskan.se//Article.jsp?article=10092861

The number of people emigrating from the city of Malmø is reaching record levels. Swedes, who a couple of decades ago decided to open the doors to Muslim "refugees" and asylum seekers, are now turned into refugees in their own country and forced to flee their homes. The people abandoning the city mention crime and fear of the safety of their children as the main reason for leaving.

http://w1.sydsvenskan.se/Article.jsp?article=10090830

ALL of the 600 windows at one of the schools in Malmø have been broken during the summer holiday. Window smashing alone costs the city millions every year. City buses have been forced to avoid the immigrant ghetto, as they are met with youths throwing rocks or bottles at them if they enter. Earlier this year, a boy of Afghan origin had made plans to blow up his own school.

http://w1.sydsvenskan.se//Article.jsp?article=10093267

People working at the emergency ward at the major hospital in Malmø receive threats every day, and are starting to get used to it. Patients with knives or guns are commonplace. They have discussed having metal detectors at the emergency entrance, but some fear this could be seen as a provocation.

http://w1.sydsvenskan.se//Article.jsp?article=10093495

Lisa Nilsson has lived in Manhatten, New York City, for 25 years. After moving back to Malmø, Sweden, she now misses the safety of New York. She never walks anywhere in Malmø after dark, but takes a taxi everywhere she goes.

http://www.expressen.se/index.jsp?a=180423

Rapes in Sweden as a whole have increased by 17% just since the beginning of 2003, and have had a dramatic increase during the past decade. Gang rapes, usually involving Muslim immigrant males and native Swedish girls, have become commonplace. Two weeks ago, 5 Kurds brutally raped a 13-year-old Swedish girl.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,528363,00.html

22-year-old Swedish woman going out for fresh air gang raped by three strange men. The only said one word to her: "*****!"


Oh my gosh, that's shocking. Surely it must be the Swedes fault, not the poor hapless Muslims....

Give me a break. The evidence is overwhelming, and the problem is that the actual teachings of Islam contradict wildly with the 'tolerant' version we are fed by apologists. The weekly body count of murders and wars waged in the name of Islam is staggering. This is a tremendous crisis - look at Darfur - the rape, murder and enslavement of Christian and pagan Africans - all in the name of Allah, and supported by the scripture of the Q'uran.

This is evil. But to call it evil is to have them turn thier evil on you. Who wa it that said: All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. ?

[Mas Judt]

Authors note: This was pulled from a blog -- I forgot the quote marks. It was Dhimmiwatch.org, I beleive.

[Black Jack II]

I believe its Burke’s Triumph of Evil quote.

I may have this wrong, but did China ban all muslim immigration at some recent point, I will have to google that.

From just a few years ago. If people don't really think some consider this to be a religous based program of hate.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,173913,00.html

[laugarkuen]

Who wa it that said: All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. ?

Edmund Burke



Why would you say something so slanderous?

Because I do not live in fear of a good smiting or thunderbolt



Excuse me for disagreeing,
Granted

but God inspired the authors of the Bible to write His Story. Get it? History.

If it is indeed a god's story then I am sure that its forgiveness will extend to a comment in passing referring to a British comedy



Why can't you respect others' opinions? Clearly, what you have said is wrong, libelous, and meant to hurt the feelings of others who are better informed than yourself on this subject.

I do respect others opinions but will not hold my tongue for fear of upstting someone who is so weak-minded that they cannot take a comment on a forum.

If it is wrong, correct me.

If it is libelous then have a chat with god and let him know that I am willing for him to pop round and take me to court. Providing that it is god and not some opiate spreader who claims to represent him.

If I have hurt the fealings of those better informed than me then they will know I am wrong and surely seek to enlighten me rather than getting all huffy like a schoolgirl.

[charp choi]

[QUOTE=Mas Judt;758593]For the poor chap who did not beleive me about Sweden, I suggest you visit Malmo.

I will, next time I am there! (September)


(And for the record, I never said Britain had a Muslim majority city.)

Ok, I misread your post


Have you been there, btw?

What is the solution then?

[charp choi]

I believe its Burke’s Triumph of Evil quote.

I may have this wrong, but did China ban all muslim immigration at some recent point, I will have to google that.

From just a few years ago. If people don't really think some consider this to be a religous based program of hate.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,173913,00.html

Wooo Hooo!!!!

Ha, ha, ha, Ha, ha, ha, I love it when people use Fox news as a reliable source!! :D

[Black Jack II]

LMAO,

I love it when people get all crazy when someone brings up Fox's news.:rolleyes:

Get real,stop taking the anti-Fox kooaid. Its a news story, take your pick where you want it to come from.

[charp choi]

Edmund Burke




Because I do not live in fear of a good smiting or thunderbolt


Granted


If it is indeed a god's story then I am sure that its forgiveness will extend to a comment in passing referring to a British comedy


I do respect others opinions but will not hold my tongue for fear of upstting someone who is so weak-minded that they cannot take a comment on a forum.

If it is wrong, correct me.

If it is libelous then have a chat with god and let him know that I am willing for him to pop round and take me to court. Providing that it is god and not some opiate spreader who claims to represent him.

If I have hurt the fealings of those better informed than me then they will know I am wrong and surely seek to enlighten me rather than getting all huffy like a schoolgirl.

Great Post! :)

[David Jamieson]

scott, your posts are long winded and serve only to obfuscate the point i was making.

i will simplify and remove odds for your benefit and understanding seeing as you intend to be quite anal about it.

to put it simply, any american has a better chance at getting ghosted by another american than by a terrorist from the middle east.

does that help? because according to stats of crime, particularly murder in the usa v soldiers or even civ americans killed by arab terrorists, you folks are doing a fine job of murdering yourselves and a lot of other people.

it is difficult to accept, but there you have it.

as an aside, I haven't changed my p.o.v opr my opinion on the bush admin from day 1.

I certainly don't feel bad about it. the us made a huge mistake in letting him take power. The regrets are many and the rewards are few.

:)

[Scott R. Brown]

David,

There is no obfuscation in my posts, you were unclear in making your point and your two clarifications remain unclear. An American has less of a chance to get ghosted in America than an American has of getting ghosted in Iraq. That is my point and it appeared to me that the opposite was your point. It seems now your point is that an American is more likely to get ghosted by an American in America than to be ghosted by a terrorist in America. At least that is was I have extracted from your still unclear statements. Regardless, your point is still foolish.

I still wash my hands before I eat even though it is unlikely I will get sick if I do not wash them. This is because the consequences of getting sick “could” be greater than the neglect makes apparent. We can ignore terrorist threats and just allow 3,000 American lives to be killed periodically for the sake of not hurting others, but ignoring attacks encourages further attacks until a small wound becomes a festering infection that risks our survival. Bin Laden has already stated that the reason they felt comfortable attacking America is because of the wussy behavior of Clinton in Somalia. Apparently people like you would rather have random innocent Americans die than risk the lives of trained soldiers trying to bring order to a chaotic situation!

My posts are long, but NOT long-winded. They have a clear point supported by rational argument and illustrations. If you had learned to think more clearly you would recognize this.

The fact you haven’t changed your opinion on the Bush Administration demonstrates a closed/simple mind not a certainty of the correctness of your opinion. I respect your right to be wrong and I as well as others are willing to fight for your right to ignorance.

[David Jamieson]

David,

There is no obfuscation in my posts, you were unclear in making your point and your two clarifications remain unclear. An American has less of a chance to get ghosted in America than an American has of getting ghosted in Iraq. That is my point and it appeared to me that the opposite was your point. It seems now your point is that an American is more likely to get ghosted by an American in America than to be ghosted by a terrorist in America. At least that is was I have extracted from your still unclear statements. Regardless, your point is still foolish.

I still wash my hands before I eat even though it is unlikely I will get sick if I do not wash them. This is because the consequences of getting sick “could” be greater than the neglect makes apparent. We can ignore terrorist threats and just allow 3,000 American lives to be killed periodically for the sake of not hurting others, but ignoring attacks encourages further attacks until a small wound becomes a festering infection that risks our survival. Bin Laden has already stated that the reason they felt comfortable attacking America is because of the wussy behavior of Clinton in Somalia. Apparently people like you would rather have random innocent Americans die than risk the lives of trained soldiers trying to bring order to a chaotic situation!

My posts are long, but NOT long-winded. They have a clear point supported by rational argument and illustrations. If you had learned to think more clearly you would recognize this.

The fact you haven’t changed your opinion on the Bush Administration demonstrates a closed/simple mind not a certainty of the correctness of your opinion. I respect your right to be wrong and I as well as others are willing to fight for your right to ignorance.

You are quite condescending aren't you. All that book learning has done you well. lol. If you look at the data, it clearly shows a greater death rate for americans in any given years vs the death of americans by terrorist act or even by military service in Iraq. Ergo, an american does indeed have a better chance of getting killed in america, by a fellow american than s/he does of getting killed by muslim fanatics, terrorists or insurgents either in america or anywhere else.

honestly, is that so difficult to grasp? please read the post again where I post the murder stats in the US and the Mortalities since hostilities began in the current war. If you would like to go back to the very first terrorist attack then I would still say that the murder count of americans on americans is higher.

but anyway, you are obfuscating with your "clear" points.

this thread began with basically what amounts to a "Hey! Look at what the muslims are doing now!!!"

You refer to 9/11 in your random 3000 deaths I would surmise. But you assume to point outy that I am wrong for bringing up facts around what is likely the biggest war on the muslim world?

So america drops bombs on what amounts to at the bottom end 40,000 Iraqis because they have bad intelligence, but even if it was good intelligence, the american bombs have killed 40,000 Iraqis.

The number could be higher according to the brits, upwards of 100,000 Iraqis or more.

Now, exactly what do you expect the people to do in this matter? Do you think they will particularly like america? Do you think they will gravitate towards the president who ordered this carnage take place? Do you think that all the Nations of the world that didn't support the US pre-emptive strike on Iraq (which I'm not sure if your counting, but it's pretty much the majority of the free world that still doesn't agree with the attack on Iraq) feel ok with what's going on? If they were ok with it, don't you think they would in some way be actively trying to restore the nation of Iraq to normality...(they are by the way but the current admin is for some strange reason blocking almost every single attempt by any other nation to get involved).

With every day America has boots on the ground as an occupying force as opposed to as a freindly force is another day that more insurgents will be recruited.

How long would you as an American put up with an invading force even if your leader was a bunghole? That's really all you gotta ask yourself. And as for not changing my mind about Bush, well, there's some people who are just beyond fixing. lol And I mean W is the one beyond fixing by the way. My views are perfectly normal stacked against his bombastic tom foolery.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi David,

No I am not condescending; I am reflecting your own condescension back to you!

How many people died when America dropped bombs on Japan and Germany? Those bombs were indiscriminate. It was in the hundreds of thousands that died. Japan and Germany are better countries for it now. That is not to say that is it good to kill innocents, however life happens to all of us and none of us get out alive. Wars are won by killing people. You do not have to like it, but it is a fact of life and it will happen regardless of your righteous indignation. Unfortunately innocents will die as a result of any war! Perhaps you would rather it be your own family! I wouldn’t want any innocent killed, but when faced with two evils I will choose the lesser evil. The lesser evil is, “it is better them and theirs than me and mine! While some inappropriate acts occur in all wars and they should be roundly criticized and rectified, they are none-the-less a part of life that cannot be avoided. Our intentions have always been to kill the bad guys while hurting as few innocents as possible. If you choose to accuse America for killing the bad guys when they purposely hide amongst the innocents in order to create innocent deaths then their tactics are working on you and they are one more step closer to imposing dhimmini law on you and yours. Do you think you would enjoy the consequences? You do understand that that is their stated goal don’t you? They want a world Islamic state! Are you ready to convert or face oppression worse than you can imagine?