Other WC Forums?

[Lugoman]

Hello,

I stumbled upon this forum believing that this was a good, positive place to discuss WC without being subjected to a verbal double leg take-down, elbowed in the face repeatedly until I agree to give up Sui Lim Tao for Thai kicks and the RNC, like what happens on so many other MA forums. Was I wrong?

I don't mind questioning the techniques and principles of the art, I'm new to WC but not new to the MAs and I'm finding things in WC that may never work for me, but from past experience this is true in all MAs for me. But it gets a little trite when every thread morphs into "If they ain't doing it in UFC, it ain't no good" arguments.

I am open to the opinions of others even when I disagree, I actually like to hear differing opinions as it forces me to to look at the validity of my own, it either solidifies mine or helps to change them. But the broken record is getting so old and if it hasn't changed the minds of the few yet, it is never going to.

It doesn't drive me away from WC, it drives me away from the forum which leads me to the point of this post... are there better forums out there to simply discuss Wing Chun without getting into a virtual cage match?

[ammocase]

UFC is a sport with rules, it comes close to reality but it still falls short, people who use UFC as a basis for a styles effectiveness in the real world need a wake up call.

[Tom Kagan]

UFC is a sport with rules, it comes close to reality but it still falls short, people who use UFC as a basis for a styles effectiveness in the real world need a wake up call.

Without trying to get into a Street/Sport/MMA debate, what do you see as the way to properly measure a given style's "effectiveness in the real world" which would give tangible and repeatable results on which to make an informed opinion?

[ammocase]

Without trying to get into a Street/Sport/MMA debate, what do you see as the way to properly measure a given style's "effectiveness in the real world" which would give tangible and repeatable results on which to make an informed opinion?

You really cant, hence the word "real".. but i have seen self defense training such as full geared students squaring off multiple oponents or armed oponents, doesnt look pretty an flashy but id rather do this form of training then one on one mma with rules set in.

So the answer is very simple, training for the REAL WORLD with no rules would give you a better ground for self defense.

An im not a kung fu fanboy, been in wing chun for 5 days only but i kickboxed for many years an i also trained in vee arnis jujitsu an cross trained in BJJ an shootfighting. An theres a world difference in just the mind set of sport an self defense.

If i get attacked... im eye gouging groin kicking.. stomping his head in when hes on the ground, just like i train day in an day out which is the equal to the day in an day out of ufc fighters fighting within rules on a one on one basis in their gyms, im not rushing in double legs an shifting into position an looking for a ref when the guy tries to claw my eyes out.

[JPinAZ]

Hello,

I stumbled upon this forum believing that this was a good, positive place to discuss WC without being subjected to a verbal double leg take-down, elbowed in the face repeatedly until I agree to give up Sui Lim Tao for Thai kicks and the RNC, like what happens on so many other MA forums. Was I wrong?

I don't mind questioning the techniques and principles of the art, I'm new to WC but not new to the MAs and I'm finding things in WC that may never work for me, but from past experience this is true in all MAs for me. But it gets a little trite when every thread morphs into "If they ain't doing it in UFC, it ain't no good" arguments.

I am open to the opinions of others even when I disagree, I actually like to hear differing opinions as it forces me to to look at the validity of my own, it either solidifies mine or helps to change them. But the broken record is getting so old and if it hasn't changed the minds of the few yet, it is never going to.

It doesn't drive me away from WC, it drives me away from the forum which leads me to the point of this post... are there better forums out there to simply discuss Wing Chun without getting into a virtual cage match?

try hfy108.com
There are many subforums for wing chun, along with other MA's sub-forums as well.

[VinhXuanGirl]

Go to The Wing Chun Fight Club, I think that you will like it there.

[Mr Punch]

If you grow a thicker skin, lurk plenty and join in to the discussions that interest you, I think this forum is good. There's plenty to learn and discuss.

I certainly wouldn't give up on it after 8 (or 5, VXG!) posts.

[Lugoman]

If you grow a thicker skin, lurk plenty and join in to the discussions that interest you, I think this forum is good. There's plenty to learn and discuss.

I certainly wouldn't give up on it after 8 (or 5, VXG!) posts.

Yes Mr Punch, you're right. I recognize you from MAP. I never post over there any more for the same reasons I'm griping about here.

It just gets maddening at times, even this thread started to morph into MMA vs. Street/Sport/Your Dog, ya da, ya da. :D

[drleungjohn]

The Wing Chun Mailing list or if you want smaller,the Wing Chun Forum on WINGCHUNKUEN.COM

[Marcelo-RJ]

Hmmm... I see there's a troll here and there in this forum, but at least you're free to speak here, no matter what your political and ideological tastes are. I don't know if that's the case of other Wing Chun discussions groups and mailing lists, but trolls and political BS rule many different forums, from religion to warfare, so just try to ignore the negative posts and enjoy your staying.

[t_niehoff]

You really cant, hence the word "real".. but i have seen self defense training such as full geared students squaring off multiple oponents or armed oponents, doesnt look pretty an flashy but id rather do this form of training then one on one mma with rules set in.


It takes a good amount of quality experience in fighting to have a sufficient basis to make intelligent informed conclusions about fighting, what it involves, how to train effectively, etc. Most people simply don't have much in the way of experience, whether newbies to martial arts or the TMA masters and grandmasters (how can they know if they don't fight?) -- the theoretical nonfighters of the world. So with their very limited grasp of fighting they make assumptions of what they believe fighting entails, what they believe will work, how they believe they should train, etc.

What you'd rather do is irrelevant; if your concern in actually developing realistic fighting skills that will work in any realistic environment, from ring to street, then you should take the time to listen to what proven fighters, people who have proved they developed those skills themselves, and proven fight trainers, people who have a proven record of traiing good fighters, have to say.

BTW, the "rules" of some contest do not have anything to do with the skill of the contestents -- you can change the rules of tennis or basketball or a fighting situation, and the player/fighters will simply adjust their games. Changing the rules won't make a bad athlete suddenly good.



So the answer is very simple, training for the REAL WORLD with no rules would give you a better ground for self defense.


First, it is silly to train martial arts simply for self-defense -- to spend years of hard, continuous training just to be able to handle yourself when most intelligent people can avoid getting into those situations their entire lives is a huge waste of time and effort. And in most situations you'd be better off with a PPD anyway. Don't take up wrestling for self defense -- take it up because you want to wrestle.

Second, the truth of the matter is that rules or no rules has nothing whatsoever to do with developing skills. We develop fighting skills by fighting; we don't develop fighting skills by not fighting. So if you can't practice something *for real* in fighting, you can't develop it to any significant degree.



An im not a kung fu fanboy, been in wing chun for 5 days only but i kickboxed for many years an i also trained in vee arnis jujitsu an cross trained in BJJ an shootfighting. An theres a world difference in just the mind set of sport an self defense.


Of course. And the tactics you will use may be different too. But the skills that work in fighting will work regardless of the "venue." It's not the case that you won't have skills in the ring but when you step into the street you suddenly will have good abilities. You either have fighting skills or you don't.



If i get attacked... im eye gouging groin kicking.. stomping his head in when hes on the ground, just like i train day in an day out which is the equal to the day in an day out of ufc fighters fighting within rules on a one on one basis in their gyms, im not rushing in double legs an shifting into position an looking for a ref when the guy tries to claw my eyes out.

It would do you some good to visit a good MMA gym -- tell them your theories about fighting and then ask to have a go, using your "deadly" stuff. I'm sure they'll oblige you. And you'll see for yourself how so many of your assumptions are wrong. No one will be able to convince you of this through discussion or argument; only personal experience with reality (and not theory) will change your mind.


And let me address the issue of "the broken record" --

Some people may think that my and KF's perspective is a "broken record", and I agree that we do repeat our perspective in various threads where certain issues arise. But, what has become the traditional viewpoint is in my view a much more pervasive "broken record" that gets repeated endlessly by just about everyone. So much so that it has become the default view. That's all I overwhelmingly hear: the same old tired, traditional, theoretical, nonsensical sh1t. Just with variations on the same themes. And that's what continues to be "taught" to the vast majority of WCK students. So I agree with you -- I get tired of the "broken record" too, hearing the same things repeated endlessly (I've been online discussing WCK since '97, first on the WCML). All I am offering is a different perspective.

[Wayfaring]

Some people may think that my and KF's perspective is a "broken record"

I don't see you and KF having the same perspective. He has real fight experience. You don't. You're really verbose and redundant. He's not as verbose. You don't listen. He does. You're more like dialing in to a recorded message.

No offense. Just my perspective. :D

[JPinAZ]

T - who CARES if you read the same old, traditional BS as you call it? You are the one that came to the Wing Chun Forum, what the hell did you expect to read about?
Why not just let it go? believe it or not, the rhetoric isn't going to change anyone that doesn't want to be or hasn't been changed. Even if you have a valid point or not - you've made it already - countless times.

Regarding:
T - "First, it is silly to train martial arts simply for self-defense -- to spend years of hard, continuous training just to be able to handle yourself when most intelligent people can avoid getting into those situations their entire lives is a huge waste of time and effort. And in most situations you'd be better off with a PPD anyway. Don't take up wrestling for self defense -- take it up because you want to wrestle. "

Huh, if you're not training for self-defense, then what's it for - Self offense? What are you saying exactly, that we should all traing to go out and pick figths, bully, look for trouble etc? Or are you saying everyone should just train to fight in sporting events and compete, or else they are wasting thier time and they should quit?
What exactly are you trying to say here, because this whole statement makes you sound like a moron. (yes, you do)

Let me ask you directly - why do YOU train, if not for 'self defense'? Do you train to compete? If so, DO you compete?
Do you get in figths regularily? If you do are you starting them, or are you acting in self defense?

JP

And in this, I'm not trying to help contribute to the degradation of yet another thread. I'm curious how some people can qualify what they say. Maye I will create another thread.

[Knifefighter]

If i get attacked... im eye gouging groin kicking.. stomping his head in when hes on the ground,

Don't you think someone training in MMA is going to be able to do the same things?


just like i train day in an day out which is the equal to the day in an day out of ufc fighters fighting within rules on a one on one basis in their gyms, im not rushing in double legs an shifting into position an looking for a ref when the guy tries to claw my eyes out.

You train day in and day out stomping your opponent's heads, trying to gouge his eyes out, and kicking him in the groin? Either you and your training partners spend a lot of time in the emergeny room or you are just pretending to do these things.



So the answer is very simple, training for the REAL WORLD with no rules would give you a better ground for self defense..

In a way you are right. You can use the same training model that MMA fighters use, but add mutliple opponents and weapons. However, unless you are training full contact, you are completely wasting your time.

[anerlich]

And let me address the issue of "the broken record" --

You've already addressed it. You PERSONIFY it.


Some people may think that my and KF's perspective is a "broken record",

AS Wayfaring said, that's a fair aomunt of hubris putting yourself in the same category and assuming you have the same knowledge and insights as him and assuming that we regard your missives as carrying as much weight (as opposed to volume, as in hot air).

Knifefighter's different. Less pervasive and more succinct. I have concerns about his wellbeing because he wastes so much time here on something he claims to think is utter crap.


and I agree that we do repeat our perspective in various threads where certain issues arise.

Thank you, Captain Obvious. "We", huh?


But, what has become the traditional viewpoint is in my view a much more pervasive "broken record" that gets repeated endlessly by just about everyone.

According to Edmund, a record which you played with heavy rotation not so long ago on the WCML. The same behaviour on a new subject doesn't suddenly make you less boring. If you must play the music on the record, get some **** headphones!


So much so that it has become the default view. That's all I overwhelmingly hear: the same old tired, traditional, theoretical, nonsensical sh1t. Just with variations on the same themes.

If I take out the words "traditional, theoretical", I come up with an appropriate description of your recent posting behaviour. Just put a link to Matt Thornton's website and maybe a quote or two in your .sig and reboot your neocortex - you're trapped in an infinite loop.


And that's what continues to be "taught" to the vast majority of WCK students. So I agree with you -- I get tired of the "broken record" too, hearing the same things repeated endlessly (I've been online discussing WCK since '97, first on the WCML).

So maybe BOTH sides should shut up, rather you trying to shout over the top of your perceived (and IMO, mostly imaginary) opponents? This sounds like paranoia, plus grandiousity, assuming that you actually have something worthwhile to contribute.

1997? It seems so much longer ... :(


All I am offering is a different perspective.

Now it's "I" and not "we"?

The perspective has been presented by others much more succinbctly. You seem to feel the need to be a self appointed moral saviour; unfortunately, you have no talent for it and no new ideas.

And it's not just you and KF presenting this perspective ... plenty of others (Ernie, Andrew S, KenWingJutsu, etc.) have proposed similar ideas. Even I've said much the same on occasion, probably before you started on the crusade (while you were playing the older broken record perhaps). So give up this idea of being some sort of revolutionary, iconoclast or enlightened being or assuming that your thoughts are so important that people will gladly submit to having them repeatedly jammed into their eyeballs.

Thanks for addressing the issue ... but really just keeping quiet would have been equally informative and less tedious. You have proved yet again that MORE is not BETTER.

[t_niehoff]

Andrew,

I'm sorry that you, as a regular, find it repetitive and tiresome to hear the same things repeated. I too find it repetitive and tiresome to hear the same "traditional" views repeated ad naseum. But you need to appreciate that not only regulars visit this forum. When newbies or infrequent visitors pop in, they come to the forum without perhaps having heard this perspective. And I think that if a point is addressed from a traditional perspective, it is probably a good idea to have it addressed from a more realistic perspective, as this provides some balance. Certainly I am not alone in my perspective, and if others would speak up more frequently to provide that balance, it would be a positive thing.

All I can say is that as sick and tired as you are of hearing my view, triple that, and you'll get an idea of how sick and tired I am of hearing the same old nonsense spewed out.

[anerlich]

But you need to appreciate that not only regulars visit this forum. When newbies or infrequent visitors pop in, they come to the forum without perhaps having heard this perspective. And I think that if a point is addressed from a traditional perspective, it is probably a good idea to have it addressed from a more realistic perspective, as this provides some balance. Certainly I am not alone in my perspective, and if others would speak up more frequently to provide that balance, it would be a positive thing.


I'm quite capable of deciding what I need to appreciate, Captain Obvious. Patronizing me and the rest of the readership will do you no favours.

I'm not sure the forum as a whole shares your opinion as to where the balance lies. Anyone with the slightest interest in MA not marooned on a desert island for the last decade has heard and considered these "realistic" ideas.

As for the tradtional mindset being endemic, the pattern actually goes more like:

1. New member (who may have quite a bit of WC and other MA experience - ability, knowledge, and length of tenure on the forum are not necessarily related) suggests traditional mindset may have some value.

2. The MMA/reality zealots (you) browbeat the hapless newcomer into submission.

3. New user decides he doesn't need to sign up for this new religious war or join a new political party, and sensibly spends no more time on the forum.

It would be interesting to see which viewpoint actually has the more related posts, but I'll leave that to someone WGAF about stats. There are easier ways to decide what the readership would prefer.

Rather than you deciding for the bulk of the readership what is good for them, perhaps you could ask Dave/Sihing73 about putting up a sticky post (he may say no - and I wouldn't blame him)?

Or even put the "need" to save the clueless newbies from the traditional mindset, to a poll?

After all, if you're so convinced of the rightness of your ideas and you as the logical choice as its evangelist, surely everyone else will automatically agree?

Or maybe you could do as I suggest, just put some links and quotes in your .sig?

Maybe set up your own forum somewhere else and moderate it? Write your ideas (or, more to the point, other people's ideas) out on a blog? Jeez, everyone reads my blogs. :p Either way, you'll be deluged with readers, won't you?

You apparently think people are crying out for "your" ideas - so put it to the test.

[Lugoman]

When newbies or infrequent visitors pop in, they come to the forum without perhaps having heard this perspective. And I think that if a point is addressed from a traditional perspective, it is probably a good idea to have it addressed from a more realistic perspective, as this provides some balance.

And you don't think that anyone who has any interest in the MA hasn't heard it all before? Most people Googling the web for MA forums will come across Bullshido, MAP, et al before finding this forum. I know I did.

Your perspective has it's place, it's just nice to have a refuge from the juvenile PWNED!!!!1 mentality of most UFC/MMA oriented forums once in awhile.

But alas, they're everywhere it seems, like Jehovah Witnesses... and I don't even get to giggle as I turn my dog lose on 'em.

[reneritchie]

I don't train MA for self defense or to win a UFC or to become a Jedi Knight. I just train because I enjoy it.

If you wake up to find some lunatic holding a gun on your kid ordering your wife to tie you up, MA won't help you. If you don't train like a combat athlete, UFC gold will escape you. And midiclorians are in scant enough supply these days, outside of video games.

But having fun, getting some exercise, enjoying some social interaction -- priceless.

(and feel free to check out http://www.wingchunkuen.com/ for some differently annoying forums!)