Training with a Statue

[Onjer]

Over the last 30 years, I have had the opportunity to train under some great teachers. Most notatbly is Lin Chun-fu, who taught me Praying Mantis, Tai-chi, Shaui-chaio, Hsing-I, Ba-Gua. Over the the past two years I've crossed trained in MMA and BJJ with some great fighters in So. Cal (e.g Eric Paulson, James Wilkes). This cross-training has changed the way I lead my small Tang Lang class I teach on Saturday mornings.

All of the traditional training usually started with the opponent punching with the right fist and right hand. The rational was, if you keep proper distance, this is the only way your opponent can reach you. Add the predictable punch with the opponent standing there like a statue (rt. hand & ft. extended), so all these cool techniques could be done while he stands there. I saw this at a Kung Fu San Soo school - I also saw this on a sample web video, where a visiting instructor was leading a throwing seminar - too much cooperating by the "opponent". It's in the magazines all the time. Guess what? this distance and attack almost never happens.

So when I started training with some of the local K1, IMF, etc., and saw how fast the punches were pulled, it made me realize our training needed to be adjusted. Fast left jabs, quick shin kicks to the thigh all needed to be dealt with. And to my surprise, my traditional Chinese martial art training worked excellent, when re-calibrated to Muai-Tai type attacks.

When we first started pulling the punches when the students were doing two-man forms for instance, they would "chase" the jab, over-extending and leaving themselves vulnerable. After some practice, they would execute the technique as if there was no opponent and the move worked perfect. In fact, Master Lin used to say, "when you practice solo, imagine there is an enemy (shadow-box). When there is an enemy, imagine their is no one there". When he taught this, it never really made sense - until our experimenting with actual fighting techniques. So, the art it self was perfect, it was the training that was flawed.

My intent of writing this is to increase an awareness of training setup, to maximize the effectiveness of your training. Don't just punch with the right fist/leg and the left hand chambered (like we've all seen too often).

[TaichiMantis]

Great Post! I've often tried to bring this up with my sifu. Why do we learn techinques with statue punches and then end up sparring with karate point sparring gear and rules? Makes no sense! You somehow need to incorporate techniques and principles within your style with real life movement and non-cooperating partners!

[TaichiMantis]

My intent of writing this is to increase an awareness of training setup, to maximize the effectiveness of your training. Don't just punch with the right fist/leg and the left hand chambered (like we've all seen too often).


Would be great if you could post some video!;)

[yu shan]

We have an exercise using the hooking hand against the jab like punch (chinese name for exercise has escaped me) 100 repetitions both sides. It is not patty cake, pretty intense. Right now 100 reps for all drills... next 200.

Welcome to the board Onjer.

[TaichiMantis]

We have an exercise using the hooking hand against the jab like punch (chinese name for exercise has escaped me) 100 repetitions both sides. It is not patty cake, pretty intense. Right now 100 reps for all drills... next 200.

Welcome to the board Onjer.


I've used it in karate point sparring tournaments and scored some points with a follow-up to the head.:p . Maybe because I started martial arts with no prior training or preconceived notions on how to fight, or maybe because we have a lot of forms drilling (especially bung bo) and not as much sparring practice, I find myself using some techniques when I spar. It just comes out. Another one is sliding your front foot in behind their foot, pointing your foot up. Opponents trip over it as they try to back up.:p

[yu shan]

Chao Tui is essential, we first teach in the posture training and kao da.

[EarthDragon]

intersting post.
Heres my take on it.

Often when learning and I mean learning how to redirect, block or defend against a punch both parties should be going slow and give the the 1 punch to the same spot scenario over an over. This is how we learn initally.

Then after many hours, days, months, years you speed up this process and then incorpoarate left hand attacks, closed eye attacks, supise ro even blaind sopt attacks, fake outs, weapons and full speed attacks. By this time with proper practice the student should be able to defend the same way as the so called statue pose or 1 punch to the same spot as mentioned above.

If you do not expand on the inital technique and put it into real life siuations than it will always be a participating stunt double holly wood punch statue crap.

The idea is to learn with a cooperating opponent then mature into using it with anyone in any siuation with any attack. if not you are not realistically training for combat.

[phoenixdog]

Great post!IMHO the most common steet attack punch will be a 1.)right hook from a right foot forward 2.)right haymaker from a left foot forward 3.) left snapping straight jab from left foot forward. The left foot forward,right straight cross is not a common street punch (that I have seen ) since it is more natural for right handers to keep there right side forward.

[Onjer]

Would be great if you could post some video!;)

I just bought a digital camcorder. I have examples in mind I would like to share. ...now to find the time to do it... .

[yu shan]

Thanks and I look forward to your clips. I am meeting with two of my technically savvy students tomorrow to talk about doing the same thing. We will be doing some youtube stuff and links on my website for your video viewing pleasure. :D

[masherdong]

We have an exercise using the hooking hand against the jab like punch (chinese name for exercise has escaped me) 100 repetitions both sides.

I believe it is called tiao chin?

[mantis108]

Welcome to the board. I am all for your line of thinking. I personally love to use the UFC format for sparring which is in my mind is a great attribute building tool.

Here's an example of my practice:

Old Sparring Session (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6Hzl1r0kVA)

I believe that the Seven Star group in Poland, Finland, Australia, etc have a traditional sparring format from the birth place (Shandong) of Tanglang. I have been a fan and advocate of bringing that format to North America. Hopefully, Steve Cottrell of the Mantis Quarterly organization would consider hosting an exhibition game soon following the success of the Mantis Conference couple of years ago.

Anyway, Keep up the good work and I look forward to your clips.

Regards

Mantis108

[mantis108]

Forgot to say in CCK TCPM, we also practice this way:

Alexander Tse's CCK TCPM Sau Fa applications (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxIsQXHAIJc)

The more chance to practice with a live partner, the better IMHO.

Regards

Mantis108

[Onjer]

Forgot to say in CCK TCPM, we also practice this way:

Alexander Tse's CCK TCPM Sau Fa applications (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxIsQXHAIJc)

The more chance to practice with a live partner, the better IMHO.

Regards

Mantis108

This is a great clip - and hats off to the student for knowing how to fall on a hardwood floor! But here again, we see the right-hand, right-leg attack.
Please don't get me wrong, I have respect for the demonstration (beautiful execution), and the need to have a consistant method to start training and demonstrating techniques - but to my original point, (...and I'm not saying this is the case here), we can't be too reliant on this entry for all our training.

On the flip side of that, what I've seen too may times is great training on forms and techniques, but pure kick-boxing when actual sparring. What happens to all the wonderful blocks, attacks and counters when the pre-planning stops? So, this is where I've tried to introduce TMA training with MMA attacks, and keep the essence of the art.

[wiz cool c]

Sorry for miss spelling [Beijing] Besides doing a lot stance training I'm also a ****ing retard.

[wiz cool c]

I didn't get enough sleep last night I put this in the wrong place.