Alan Orr Article-

[drleungjohn]

this month's issue of Britain's Martial Arts Illustrated has a big article on Alan Orr and his use of WCK in the MMA area--

Hey Victor-he's a big fan of Catch Wrestling!

[Nick Forrer]

The fight team X train a lot in BJJ too since we acknowledge the importance of the guard in MMA/real fighting

[reneritchie]

Very nice! Congrats!

[Alan Orr]

Hi Guys

Thanks for the post, you can read the full article at:

http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/articles/sifuinterview2.html


and yes I am a catch wrestling fan, but you must have a good level of BJJ to be a good grappler. You must test your grappling skills with black belt level BJJ instructors to know this. I am very luckly I have Eddy Millis and Leo Negao to train with. Also my studnets who have grappling backgrounds in BJJ are a great help. Nick is my training partner who weekly puts me to the test and has helped my guard game become much better. A good teacher will be a good studnet.

I was sparring full contact last week with my guys and I can tell you if you can't move from you back you are in touble, in the gym or on the street.

My best

Alan

www.alanorr.com

[Knifefighter]

and yes I am a catch wrestling fan, but you must have a good level of BJJ to be a good grappler. You must test your grappling skills with black belt level BJJ instructors to know this.

That ought to get Victor going.

[drleungjohn]

Could you please discuss-in your experience and opinion,how chi sao has helped your ground game(or not)-since you are a real Wing Chun guy who both competes and incorporates it into his game-

Thanks

[Alan Orr]

Hi drleungjohn

Thanks for you question.

RE:Could you please discuss-in your experience and opinion,how chi sao has helped your ground game(or not)-since you are a real Wing Chun guy who both competes and incorporates it into his game-


Alan: I will give you the very quick reply, as this could be a few chapters long! Also this is not to you its just my feedback in general as I don't know you of course.

In short the answer would be 'yes' Chi Sao has helped my grappling my ground game a lot. The long answer would be ' no' if I did not have Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun. The reason, and it is my reason, is that Chu Sau Lei wing chun works on 'body structure as its key principles to application' rather that 'techniques as application. Now I am sure a lot of people will not understand that, I hope some will.

In the Chu Sau Lei system we understand the correct way to control you own body power and weight. Also the methods required to store and release power.

I looked at a lot of wing chun and most do not have a clue on these points. Therefore I would agree with a lot of 'Knifefighters' points at time. As he has only seen wing chun of that standard, which is common.

If you look at BJJ, its all about position, weight, correct control of your own balance. That is the same for the Chu Sau Lei wing chun system.

Techniques, well you can have 1000's. Its about knowing when, why, how. To do that you have to have a 'skill of body control' and 'sensibility' , these two things give you strategies.

Most wing chun just play hands, again in my opinon. So, no need to defend that point.

If like the Chu Sau Lei system you have body structure, in the manner we use and term it. Then Wing chun chi sao is like have a great guard game in BJJ - very important. If you don't have structure skills then you are trouble. Its like have a bad guard game. See in BJJ having a good guard means you have a good flow and good movement. Therefore your whole game will be better.

When I fight or my guys fight we use the skills of our chi sao, not the chi sao drill. The skills are that we punch better, harder, with more skill, we see the opponents moves and read him well. I still get a lot of people saying ' I can't see wing chun in the fights your team has' well to me that because they would have a low level of understanding of the art. Wing Chun is a chinese boxing system. The training methods are to improve you skill to punch and kick.

Pinning and trapping - the same in BJJ and in wing chun. It just the beginners want to see pak and lap LOL! If I punch you I use my punch to cut you line and control you arm, this may be only of a faction of a second, but you are pinned from returning fire. I may throw 4 or 5 punches all controling your movement. This is trapping, not the training drill. Also when I look at the way most people do their drills ..... well it says it all.

I could ramble on all day. These are just my views and feedback.

On a general note to the guys who want to get good:

The best way is to meet up and train with good guys and test everything. Then you know if you have a real system or not and that means with top guys in other arts like BJJ as well.

I meet a lot of wing chun guys from other systems and most would not last with a minute with a good grappler. Sad but true. Thats why I have been trying to get the wing chun world to look at structure.



My best

Alan

www.alanorr.com

ps My studnet Neil just won a boxing match with our system a few weeks back. I will post more when we have the pictures sorted.

[sihing]

Hi drleungjohn

Thanks for you question.

RE:Could you please discuss-in your experience and opinion,how chi sao has helped your ground game(or not)-since you are a real Wing Chun guy who both competes and incorporates it into his game-


Alan: I will give you the very quick reply, as this could be a few chapters long! Also this is not to you its just my feedback in general as I don't know you of course.

In short the answer would be 'yes' Chi Sao has helped my grappling my ground game a lot. The long answer would be ' no' if I did not have Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun. The reason, and it is my reason, is that Chu Sau Lei wing chun works on 'body structure as its key principles to application' rather that 'techniques as application. Now I am sure a lot of people will not understand that, I hope some will.

In the Chu Sau Lei system we understand the correct way to control you own body power and weight. Also the methods required to store and release power.

I looked at a lot of wing chun and most do not have a clue on these points. Therefore I would agree with a lot of 'Knifefighters' points at time. As he has only seen wing chun of that standard, which is common.

If you look at BJJ, its all about position, weight, correct control of your own balance. That is the same for the Chu Sau Lei wing chun system.

Techniques, well you can have 1000's. Its about knowing when, why, how. To do that you have to have a 'skill of body control' and 'sensibility' , these two things give you strategies.

Most wing chun just play hands, again in my opinon. So, no need to defend that point.

If like the Chu Sau Lei system you have body structure, in the manner we use and term it. Then Wing chun chi sao is like have a great guard game in BJJ - very important. If you don't have structure skills then you are trouble. Its like have a bad guard game. See in BJJ having a good guard means you have a good flow and good movement. Therefore your whole game will be better.

When I fight or my guys fight we use the skills of our chi sao, not the chi sao drill. The skills are that we punch better, harder, with more skill, we see the opponents moves and read him well. I still get a lot of people saying ' I can't see wing chun in the fights your team has' well to me that because they would have a low level of understanding of the art. Wing Chun is a chinese boxing system. The training methods are to improve you skill to punch and kick.

Pinning and trapping - the same in BJJ and in wing chun. It just the beginners want to see pak and lap LOL! If I punch you I use my punch to cut you line and control you arm, this may be only of a faction of a second, but you are pinned from returning fire. I may throw 4 or 5 punches all controling your movement. This is trapping, not the training drill. Also when I look at the way most people do their drills ..... well it says it all.

I could ramble on all day. These are just my views and feedback.

On a general note to the guys who want to get good:

The best way is to meet up and train with good guys and test everything. Then you know if you have a real system or not and that means with top guys in other arts like BJJ as well.

I meet a lot of wing chun guys from other systems and most would not last with a minute with a good grappler. Sad but true. Thats why I have been trying to get the wing chun world to look at structure.



My best

Alan

www.alanorr.com

ps My studnet Neil just won a boxing match with our system a few weeks back. I will post more when we have the pictures sorted.

There's tons of stuff here that I like about Alan's post. To me he is talking concept. The concept of how to use the body properly from a WC/VT perspective. If a particular perspective is not needed to learn how to fight, then training with any teacher is useless, just fight and see what happens to your skills. We all need to learn, some more, some less. Having a mentor, coach, Sifu, etc.. speeds up the process of abosrbing what the system has to offer you, rather than the trial and error approach.

I think Alan is right on here. In the beginning you are learning how to control your body, with balance and coordination, but also learning how to accept and give force, so that in either situation you can put yourself in a good position. Later you use the skills learned from WC/VT in a natural way, meaning, those witnessing you fight will not know what you are doing. Performing proper WC/VT in a fight is not the goal, winning is, and since economy of motion is one of WC/VT's major principles, you only use it for the time you need it, a second or half a second, basically to set you up to finish off whomever you are fighting. As an example, like Alan said, pinning and trapping is not the goal, rather it should be something that just happens as part of your goal to hit the opponent. Elbows down helps this process, but you use it when needed. Like WSL said, "I use the system, it doesn't use me..." To me WC/VT is a training system, just because I train in it and learn it, doesn't mean I am limited by it. It gives me fighting skills, to which I have to relate to natural combat for me to be an effective fighter given my individual strengths and weaknesses.

Good post Alan. :)

James

[drleungjohn]

thanks you very much-that was intelligent,inciteful and re assuring-I am quite familiar with Robert's methodology-we are good friends,and he is my wing chun kung fu brother from way back in the New York days--we are still in touch-

At one point we were developing similar concepts on structure testing from different approaches-unbeknownst to each other-both yielded the same or similar results upon general comparison-

Again,thanks for the explanation and continued success in and out of the ring-

ps-love your DVD series


John Crescione

[Alan Orr]

Hi Guys

John, many thanks for your support and feedback. I'm happy you also liked my DVD series. Coming from you that good to hear.

James, also thanks for you comments. Again good to hear people on the same wave length in term of concepts.

Victor, Thanks for your post. I'm not sure why you gone on about the guard etc. As we were talking about chi sao skills in grappling. But in terms of what you have say I would agree that top control is where you want to be of course. Training your guard so you just get out is not really training your guard. Anyway it is more important to train being in the guard of some who is at a good level of using guard. Thats what is the hard work, can you pass a black belt level BJJ's guard?Yes, if you add striking it helps a lot of course. But he can also kick you in the face etc. I'm love wrestling and catch I also love No gi BJJ as well, they all have strengths.

All I am saying is in terms of grappling is that you need a good all round game. I have seen many wing chun guys who can't even kick! When I do Chi Sao with them I throw in a few round kicks when they are running away and they hit the deck. Then they say that could have hit me will a front kick. So I tell to 'do it'. But they can't. why? because they have no balance. This is what we were talking about - body structure control.

My best

Alan

www.alanorr.com

[t_niehoff]

As the resident skeptic and naysayer . . .

I think it is quite common for people to believe (subjectively) that their prior experience in whatever they have done to have "helped" them in some new endeavor. And it is not surprising for people to believe that their prior martial art training has "helped" them in BJJ. I've heard wrestlers say it, aikido people say it, WCK people say it, etc. But how would they really know if that is true or not (how can they know, for example, how quickly they would have picked something up without their previous training?)? I really haven't seen anything in the way of empirical (objective) proof. For example, did these people who believed their prior training, whatever it was, helped them actually earn their blue belt any faster than people without that training? Signficantly faster? Or earn their BB faster? From the WCK people I've known who have taken up BJJ, for example, they didn't seem to progress more quickly than the untrained-in-WCK people.

[Knifefighter]

I think it is quite common for people to believe (subjectively) that their prior experience in whatever they have done to have "helped" them in some new endeavor.

I've trained BJJ for 13 years now, the first 7 of those at probably the highest profile BJJ academy in the world. Because of this, I've had the opportunity to watch the development of a huge number of BJJ guys with backgrounds in almost every art you could ever imagine. The only people I've seen whose prior training consistently helped with their BJJ game have been people with strong wrestling backgrounds (although, in my case, my wrestling probably didn't really help me much).

Can there be transfer of training from WC to the ground? Sure, but only after one thoroughly understands the ground game. Without that understanding, there are probably more things that will hurt, rather than help when fighting on the grouund... at least against someone with knowledge of the ground game.

[Knifefighter]

"
***DON'T UNDERESTIMATE the striking part of that equation - for it helps enormously.

Don't underestimate the power of the guard for street situations. I could show you applications for the street that you have never seen, nor have most people even considered, who have just observed it in MMA or grappling settings.

[Alan Orr]

Hey Victor


You seem to be missing the point. I agree as do many BJJ guys, that top position is best for lots of reasons. Also I have trained in catch and enjoy the strengths it offers. All I am saying is BJJ is an excellent art as well and undersatnding the full use of the guard is very important. No big deal.


RE YOUR:

***DON'T WANT...don't have to....train STAYING there maneuvering/working/looking for subs. Would much rather spend lots of time training the guard/bottom scissors position as a neutralizer/get out/go for the sub if the opportunity for it develops on its own type move - as that makes the most real-life fight sense to me. Not interested in a tournament style approach to guard work (ie.- if I have to stay down here for 10 minutes or more I will....while working for my sub or sweep).

Alan: I also would not like to held on my back, but if the guy is good that not always your choice. Therefore you have a plan B. This will give you more chance of getting out anyway. At a high level ( which means testing with BJJ Black belts) you will find if your guard game is not developed ( in the guard or using the guard) you will be not be 10 mins or more. They will sweep or tap you in seconds, if you don't have that level.

RE YOUR:

***DON'T UNDERESTIMATE the striking part of that equation - for it helps enormously. Have seen many a black belt get pummelled from their guard position (ie.- Royce vs. Sak)...again...not smart to stay on your back in guard for any length of time - as time is not on your side against a good fighter - especially if it's for real in the street...where his friends might join in. Why would I want to train like that - since staying there looking for subs/sweeps is the complete opposite to what my real life fight strategy is? From my point of view - I'd be developing a bad/dangerous habit.

Alan: I never have and never said I did not. In terms of your example.. well I am sure 100 of examples for both ideas could be given. Its not important anyway.

Again we were talking about does chi sao help your ground game. You seem to be a bit up tight about the use of guard. Thats all cool. That is your way, you don't need to post to defend you views on that.

RE YOUR:

"But he can also kick you in the face." (Alan)

***HIGHLY UNLIKELY.

Alan: Well, I have seen it many times and done it a few times myself.. hey also I have eaten a few. Again points of view. No big deal to me.

In the end if you train hard you will end up in all sorts of positions and have to deal with many methods. Real fighting is different that even MMA/NHB but I would say that the more you train all areas of position you find you can use your skills with more easy.

Victor let me ask you as I don't know your background. Who did you train your catch with? Who have you trained BJJ with? Have you rolled of sparred with a black belt in BJJ?

Please do not take offence to these questions, I'm just asking to understand why you have come to your view point. I not trying to give you a hard time at all.

As far as I can see you have the same interest I would have in a fight, we just train in a different manner. I like to train all the areas so I can fight more where I don't want to be as well as where I want to be.

Regards

Alan

www.alanorr.com

[Alan Orr]

Hey Victor

All cool.

Who would want to fight Fedor LOL! Hes one tough man.

Regards

Alan

[Nick Forrer]

You know what, Alan...you're right...it's no big deal...but neither is it about which BJJ blackbelts I've rolled with...the example of what happened to Royce (and a bunch of other BJJ blackbelts) when they had Sakuraba in their guard is sufficient to make the point: it's best to prioritize working to get out from there than to make working for subs or a sweep one's priority...

and here's another example of someone (a very high level BJJ guy) who got pounded when he put his opponent in guard and didn't immediately start working escape routes...Nogueira vs. Fedor.

:

Victor,

Your examples have been cherry picked to support your argument (and by extension your underlying belief system), but they are biased....

and they are biased because

a) they are a very small sample
b) they are taken from the highest level of MMA (where defence within the guard/g and p is as highly developed a skill set as any other e.g. attack from the guard)
c) they completely ignore all the fighters (at various levels) who have used the guard successfully in fights (either to submit (e.g. fedor and coleman), reverse or strike (e.g. renzo and oleg taktarov).
d) they ignore all the fighters who have a top game only (e.g. Kevin Randleman, Ken Shamrock etc.)), who have ended up on their backs in fights and once there have been unable to do anything about it (because they never developed it as a skill set)

moreover the belief system they (i.e. the examples you give) are used to support (essentially - that the guard is a recipe for disaster in a real fight) is not based on any real hands on experience but uniformed speculation taken from watching MMA and some ceccine tapes

At the risk of playing the credentials game, Alan has trained with high level BJJ blackbelts/MMA fighters and he has also trained with Ceccine and Furey in person so he can speak from experience...you on the other hand (it would appear - and do correct me if i'm wrong) have done neither. Again go to Renzos and grapple...you will get tapped from the guard again and again (probably by the blue belts).

[Nick Forrer]

Hey Victor

All cool.

Who would want to fight Fedor LOL! Hes one tough man.

Regards

Alan

**** busted....going to bed now alan...early start tomorrow!

[Knifefighter]

Victor let me ask you as I don't know your background. Who did you train your catch with? Who have you trained BJJ with? Have you rolled of sparred with a black belt in BJJ?

Victor gets most of his information from watching videos. That's how he learned catch. He has never actually had hands-on instruction in catch... He has only watched Tony C's tapes. Watching MMA videos is how he comes by his knowledge of what works against BJJ.

He has never trained in BJJ. His only sparring experience against BJJ is with a single blue belt. He gives people a hard time when they criticize WC, although they may have had training in it for many years, while he puts down the BJJ guard when he has never had any type of instruction with it at all.

That's why he dodged your question.

He also likes to use Sakuraba as his prize example. Sakuraba was a great fighter when he did well, but he also got completely destroyed probably more than any other MMA fighter. By his logic and using Sakuraba as an example, catch is a great way to win, but it is also a great way to get oneself completely obliterated.

[Knifefighter]

Again go to Renzos and grapple...you will get tapped from the guard again and again (probably by the blue belts).

No he won't because he will use his super-duper catch ripping and scratching techniques.

[Knifefighter]

And Sak has beaten 4 Gracies..and has NEVER been submitted by any BJJ fighter -

Hahahahahaah!!! Sakuraba lost to the person who probably had the worst transition from pure sport BJJ to MMA fighting... Nino.

Like I said, Catch gave him some good wins, but it also caused him to be mercilously beat down a number of times.

[t_niehoff]

You are all wrong! Fedor has never been beaten, and no BJJ fighter or Catch fighter has ever attained his level. Fedor is trained in sambo. So it follows that sambo must be the world's best martial art, superior to BJJ or Catch. And it shows, all those fighters, including the world-class fighters, who train in BJJ or anything else, even with all their grappling and fighting experience, just don't get what I have figured out!

What? You want to expand the sample size to include other sambo fighters? Even Fedor's own brother into the sample? And so look at a large sample size to draw general conclusions? Well, how could Fedor be so good if it isn't due solely to his style of fighting?

Gee wh1z, could it be that sambo is a very good martial art and that Fedor is just an exceptionally talented guy who happens to be trained in sambo? That he probably would be just as successful in BJJ or Catch? That maybe all those world-class fighters who train in BJJ or judo or catch aren't so stupid after all?

Well, using that logic, Sak was an extremely talented athlete who happened to train in Catch, and beat the Gracies because he was so talented and because his style (Catch) just happened to merge perfectly with his individual talents.

[Knifefighter]

Well, using that logic, Sak was an extremely talented athlete who happened to train in Catch, and beat the Gracies because he was so talented and because his style (Catch) just happened to merge perfectly with his individual talents.

Sak is arguably the most talented MMA fighter to ever compete. He is a tremendous athlete. It's too bad he never focused on using the guard. With his talent, inventiveness, and showmanship, he could have developed moves from the guard that would have been amazing. More than likely, he could have been an even better fighter than he already was if he would have been more focused on using the guard.

[Mega-Foot]

He did move with a grace not unlike that of a skilled kung fu practitioner. I'll give him that.