WTI videos

[Geppy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yEMc6mmtfw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu9GoTR25xY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4WL1kg8c14

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imZfHYtKTWg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSFXrTlDcqI


Hello to all these are of my video. Some creed already you know them others not creed.


www.wingchunteam.it

[TomasWTUK]

The late GM Yip Man must be turning in his grave :(

Dude, you are embarrasing yourself with this stuff.

I do not know who gave you the title of Master, but I strongly suggest that you find him and either ask for a refund or shoot him :p

[Geppy]

The late GM Yip Man must be turning in his grave :(

Dude, you are embarrasing yourself with this stuff.

I do not know who gave you the title of Master, but I strongly suggest that you find him and either ask for a refund or shoot him :p


Thanks for I compliment. But you see you I only can say that if asserts these things you do not understand null of wing chun

[KimWingChun]

I actually don't think it looks any better or worse then the typical WT demo.

[forever young]

I chose 1 at random, the middle one of you on the jong.......wow just wow, can i please make a suggestion that you get another jong, have it at home, and learn how to play it properly.
When you then know what it is you should be doing re film it and someone might be able to appreciate what you are doing instead of just laughing at you,
Im honestly not trying to troll but to tell you what is wrong with that would just take too long and go over your head anyway as the skill i see from yourself is realistically some low level stuff and in all honesty to think for one second you deserve the title 'master' implies you have mastered something whereas it would seem you are a master at fraudulently taking money from students for something that barely resembles wing chun.
imho :D

[forever young]

compare this one which is done slowly and accurately with an eye for the details within while demonstrating for students http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0d3bf16mT8


with this which is yours,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4WL1kg8c14
then honestly compare the two ;)

[TomasWTUK]

I actually don't think it looks any better or worse then the typical WT demo.

....or WC or VT or whatever!

Good and bad throughout the WHOLE family.

As a WT student, I personally think these particular demos ARE a poor representation of the art and Geppy, simply having lots of pics on your site of you with other Masters (GM Leung Ting, GM Kernspecht et al) and banging out a few vids does not make you a master. Hell, I have had my pic taken with GMKK at a grading! Yee haw :p .....doesn't mean Jack!

Personally, I have seen some stunning WT demos and trained with some really excellent teachers who can apply their stuff.

Believe me, there are Masters out there who have every right to the title but I am still not remotely convinced that the vids I have seen so far show any degree of mastery.

Soz

[Knifefighter]

compare this one which is done slowly and accurately with an eye for the details within while demonstrating for students http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0d3bf16mT8


with this which is yours,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4WL1kg8c14
then honestly compare the two ;)


Since Mook Jong work has nothing to do with fighting in the first place, it really doesn't matter how someone does it.

[anerlich]

After reading the responses on this thread, it becomes obvious that none but a fool would post video of his MA practice or matches for viewing on the internet.

It might be pearls before swine, or gravel before swine.

But the swine are a constant.

Knifefighter, I had the alliancemartialarts death match link in my .sig before you. You wouldn't want anyone to think you have like minded thoughts with any of us clueless theoreticians, would you?

[Liddel]

Hello to all these are of my video. Some creed already you know them others not creed.
www.wingchunteam.it

Geppy - some have just been plain honest which is a little harsh - but really this is how lots of VT is practiced all over the world (not all) and it just aint realistic IMO.

Here's some contructive criticism - just one mans Point of View -

1st Vid - VT is full of elbows, its my favorite and heviest action in my tool box.
But in this drill you are teaching yourselves to lean back and have bad posture to gain space, Why ? Lack of horse movement. You lean for elbow space you do not step or turn for it.

2nd Vid - Again any action to be considered complete in fighting must have the addition of your horse - turning and/ or stepping - in this vid your all arms.
NO HORSE NO KUNG FU.

3rd Vid - Your hands and body are not working together, co ordination is needed for Yu Ma Lik.

4th Vid - Even to watch it yourself you must admit its pre arranged and co- operative, fine if you always know what your opponent is going to throw at you.
His timing is slow to let you apply your actions.

5th Vid - get your partner to throw more than one action and with more force, this again is very co operative. In reality youll never get your 20 moves out to your opponents 1 :eek:

I notice in each of your vids you happen to use punching as your finishing move/s even when your opponent is on the ground....what about the old foot stomp ?
You risk getting into a ground game if you kneel down with your opponent and by the look of your arm bar its not your strong point, try the good old foot stomp it works wonders :o

Keep training mate
DREW

[Geppy]

They are content that my video all have triggered these negative critics,ma é normal the video make in order to have critics not praises if and competent of the art you do not make excuses yourselves to me if I allow myself but they are a person who speaks in face. Just in order to get rid itself, they are a master and practical from 20 years and I teach from 14, I belong to the lineage of Leung Ting and have studied with Kernspecht and all its assistants, where I have caught up the 2 master degree, then subsequently I have studied with Smart and Prosenica also they direct students of the Leung tIng where I have caught up 5 master degree. Currently I have one my association in Italia(Napoli) the Wingchun Italy
Team where they are the President.


Hello

Master Geppy

[Liddel]

Geppy must be a language thing - my post was being sarcastic.... awesome videos mate well impressed :rolleyes:
Keep up the work.

[forever young]

Since Mook Jong work has nothing to do with fighting in the first place, it really doesn't matter how someone does it.

i never said it was anything to do with fighting, if it WAS i would recommend using an axe instead of punching!!!!!!! as a tool for measurement it serves its purpose, as a tool for developing timing, footwork, non telegraphing, body unity, correct structure etc it sufices and finally as a weapon its great (i regularly swing mine around like a toothpick and whack dudes with it :D :D ) oh and it is also good as a hatstand/coat hook .

[planetwc]

good lord how ignorant you are.
After showing how clueless you were with the Eddie Bravo fake video, I'm surprised you are still trolling around here.


Since Mook Jong work has nothing to do with fighting in the first place, it really doesn't matter how someone does it.

[leung jam]

I belong to the lineage of Leung Ting and have studied with Kernspecht and all its assistants, where I have caught up the 2 master degree, then subsequently I have studied with Smart and Prosenica also they direct students of the Leung tIng where I have caught up 5 master degree. Currently I have one my association in Italia(Napoli) the Wingchun Italy
Team where they are the President.


Hello

Master Geppy

I am sure i read on another forum that you only recieved 1st technican grade with leung tings wingtsun and nic smart only awarded you 2nd grade.
You should at least be honest about your grades,if they are part of your self-promotion, your performance in those videos is pretty slack and i doubt anyone who have awarded you master status.

Found forum link-
http://www.freenfo.net/usenet/arti-marziali/215206-geppy-reloaded.html

[Knifefighter]

good lord how ignorant you are.
After showing how clueless you were with the Eddie Bravo fake video, I'm surprised you are still trolling around here.

LOL. I thought we were following Victor's advice of either ignoring or sticking to the subject, rather than making personal stabs...

Anyway, sticking to the subject of Mook Jong not having anything to do with fighting...

Tell me which movements in the "better" video posted above (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0d3bf16mT8), you think would actaully be used in a fight.

[TheSwedishChef]

Let's remind ourselves what a 5th level tech is supposed to look like.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vTZUibPr6kU

[Knifefighter]

Let's remind ourselves what a 5th level tech is supposed to look like.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vTZUibPr6kU

If you watch those techniques, 90% are innapplicable to what actually happens when fighting against a resisting opponent, so the point is still moot.

[TheSwedishChef]

Oh yeah he didn't use a knife. So it wasn't real. :rolleyes:

Maybe when you kick his ass you can post a vid of how lame his techniques are.

[Knifefighter]

Oh yeah he didn't use a knife. So it wasn't real. :rolleyes:

Maybe when you kick his ass you can post a vid of how lame his techniques are.

Maybe, instead of only posting theoretical compliant opponent versions of what someone thinks fighting will look like, it would be much more realistic and informative to post some footage of using it in full-force situations against resisting opponents.

You would be surprised at how almost none of what was shown in those clips will be expressed in actual fighting.

Don't you find it strange that out of all of the stuff shown there, not one single piece was against a resisting opponent?

[TheSwedishChef]

He wasn't hitting them with forceful blows either. Its funny how fast students will leave you when you beat the cr@p out of them on a daily basis. Demonstrations can't done that way. This is the biggest empty complaint about demos. They are DEMOS!!! The only way to really show how the techniques work is to take the gloves off and call the ambulance just before the fight starts.



These would never work in a real attack situation.

http://alliancemartialarts.com/techniques.html

I know this because the opponent isn't resisting.

[Wayfaring]

Anyway, sticking to the subject of Mook Jong not having anything to do with fighting...

I'm no extreme enlightened one on the mook jong subject, but from my perspetive it provides two things:

1) Training in maintaining a precise range to an opponent while moving, blocking, striking. You can get out of range or jammed up easily.
2) Resistance training to striking / blocking

You can say that bag work (heavy bag, speed bag) doesn't have anything to do with boxing either, but in my experience they train it about 30% of the time.

So maybe mook jong is similar to bag work?

[Knifefighter]

He wasn't hitting them with forceful blows either. Its funny how fast students will leave you when you beat the cr@p out of them on a daily basis. Demonstrations can't done that way. This is the biggest empty complaint about demos. They are DEMOS!!! The only way to really show how the techniques work is to take the gloves off and call the ambulance just before the fight starts.

The only thing that demonstrates is that, since forceful blows are not used in training, the students (and the teacher) will never achieve much in terms of realistic skills.




These would never work in a real attack situation.

http://alliancemartialarts.com/techniques.html

You are correct.

[Knifefighter]

I'm no extreme enlightened one on the mook jong subject, but from my perspetive it provides two things:

1) Training in maintaining a precise range to an opponent while moving, blocking, striking. You can get out of range or jammed up easily.
2) Resistance training to striking / blocking

You can say that bag work (heavy bag, speed bag) doesn't have anything to do with boxing either, but in my experience they train it about 30% of the time.

So maybe mook jong is similar to bag work?


The movements used in striking the heavy bag are pretty much exactly the same as those done when fighting... not so on the Mook Jong.

[TheSwedishChef]

The only thing that demonstrates is that, since forceful blows are not used in training, the students (and the teacher) will never achieve much in terms of realistic skills.







I don't know about that. I think of my old Shaolin sifu. He never hurt me or anybody else in class but when he hit the heavy bag with his fist it looked like someone kicked it. I'm reasonably sure he and alot of other practitioners could turn up the heat on the punches when its "go time".

And nobody actually trains realistically. (That goes for all you tough guy MMArtists out there as well. Since the octogon isn't the street.) To do that you have to pick real fights. Do you know of a class that does that?

[Knifefighter]

I don't know about that. I think of my old Shaolin sifu. He never hurt me or anybody else in class but when he hit the heavy bag with his fist it looked like someone kicked it.

That's the problem... since he never went hard against anything except the heavy bag, there was no way to know whether or not he could actually fight against a resisting opponent. Lots of people look very hard core when they practice on the bag, Mook Jong, focus gloves, kicking pads, doing forms, etc... however, it often all falls apart the first time they face someone who actually hits back with intent.



And nobody actually trains realistically. (That goes for all you tough guy MMArtists out there as well. Since the octogon isn't the street.)

This is true. However, training full contact is much closer to reality than those whose training consists of only going halfway because their techniques are "too deadly" to be practiced all out.

[planetwc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV4Jq6H9pEQ&mode=related&search=




If you watch those techniques, 90% are innapplicable to what actually happens when fighting against a resisting opponent, so the point is still moot.

[Knifefighter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV4Jq6H9pEQ&mode=related&search=

Analyze and count the techniques in the clips I was originally talking about. Then count the different techniques done in the clip you posted above. I think you will see there are only about the same 10% being done... and even most of those 10% would have probably been out the window if he wasn't just playing tag with someone who fell over every time he kicked.


Here's a more realistic view (and level of contact) of fighting from a WC guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQtDudpYTmU&NR=1

[couch]

I don't know about that. I think of my old Shaolin sifu. He never hurt me or anybody else in class but when he hit the heavy bag with his fist it looked like someone kicked it. I'm reasonably sure he and alot of other practitioners could turn up the heat on the punches when its "go time".

And nobody actually trains realistically. (That goes for all you tough guy MMArtists out there as well. Since the octogon isn't the street.) To do that you have to pick real fights. Do you know of a class that does that?

Don't let him pull you into any conversation.

He enjoys the trolling...please don't give him any attention.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[jesper]

Actually this would be more realistic view of WT fighting

Mind you they are all still relatively new to WT/WC but atleast they are having a go at hard sparring

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D7-s3WLulo&mode=related&search=

Or this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZegFuKZAyUc

[Knifefighter]

Actually this would be more realistic view of WT fighting

Mind you they are all still relatively new to WT/WC but atleast they are having a go at hard sparring

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D7-s3WLulo&mode=related&search=

Or this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZegFuKZAyUc

Jesper-
You are right, because they are also including clinch and ground work.

Props to those guys.

Notice how many of the techs shown on the demo clips above you never see in actual fighting.

[jesper]

Never is such a long time :)

I do admit though that in many demos you se some... not so often used technics.

To me a demo can achive 2 things, either to dazzle the uninitiated or to demonstrate the level of control/skill the demonstrater got. Most time you need to have trained in a system for some time to appreciate nr 2. I usually dont put to much into demos either way, though on occasion you se the odd technic where you go hmm...

[Geppy]

Hello to all,
I believed that the forum foreign was more serious than those Italians but I mistook myself. Also there are only opinionisti here that they judge without to know but being based single on of my video. Creed that vent' years of practical is not little and that fourteen years of instruction are not from not holding of account, é true does not demonstrate null but personally they represent a good "ticket from visita".Ah care the storiella of my degrees I say to you that they exist, as they exist the diplomas that demonstrate cio and are guarded in my academy to Napoli(Italia). Thanks for your availability and... buon training to all.


Master Geppy

[anerlich]

Most BJJ demos I've seen (Rickson and Royler at Pride for example) have a good proportion of prearranged techniques. And they don't go full bor or full contact either.

You have to have some of this. Watching two guys fight a BJJ ompetition match looks like nothing if you don't know what to look for.

[t_niehoff]

Actually this would be more realistic view of WT fighting

Mind you they are all still relatively new to WT/WC but atleast they are having a go at hard sparring

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D7-s3WLulo&mode=related&search=

Or this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZegFuKZAyUc

There is a very simple "test" to tell whether or not what you are doing is realistic: does it look like MMA? Because whatever you do, whatever your martial art, if you put it into a fighting environment, it will look like MMA (stand up, clinch, ground). The less it looks like MMA, the further you are getting from reality.

[jesper]

heh sometimes you crack me up TN

just like those born again christians or recovering non smokers :D

[Knifefighter]

Most BJJ demos I've seen (Rickson and Royler at Pride for example) have a good proportion of prearranged techniques. And they don't go full bor or full contact either.

You have to have some of this. Watching two guys fight a BJJ ompetition match looks like nothing if you don't know what to look for.

The difference between BJJ and the TMA demos is that the BJJ guys balance out their demos with live stuff (there is actually more live stuff than there are demos). You will also see the techniques used in the demos pulled off when going live.

Most TMA people who show off their demos never show any live sparring/fighting (most because they don't do that) and the majority of their techs are unrealistic when the opponent is resisting.

[t_niehoff]

Demos are like fights in the movies -- done for entertainment value. Unfortunately, if that's all people see, they may begin to believe that's how fighting really is or that the demonstrator really has those "fighting skills" (Van Damme, Seagal, etc. or the TMA "masters"). Whether choreographed or not, demos don't take place in fighting environments, where you have someone who trying their best to mess you up, to make you miss, to make you look bad, to put the hurt on you, etc. The main difference I see when functional martial artists demo and when the others demo is that the first group tend to draw more on things that actually happen in their performance whereas the second group, which doesn't have real application as a resource to draw upon for inspiration, rely on their theory of how things will be to perform.

----

Jesper, my point was that fights, regardless of the styles involved, are a messy, chaotic, violent, etc. and don't look anything like good demos (which are meant to be clear displays of certain things). And many people look at demos and believe that they are good examples of how that art should "look" in application.

[sihing]

Demos are like fights in the movies -- done for entertainment value. Unfortunately, if that's all people see, they may begin to believe that's how fighting really is or that the demonstrator really has those "fighting skills" (Van Damme, Seagal, etc. or the TMA "masters"). Whether choreographed or not, demos don't take place in fighting environments, where you have someone who trying their best to mess you up, to make you miss, to make you look bad, to put the hurt on you, etc. The main difference I see when functional martial artists demo and when the others demo is that the first group tend to draw more on things that actually happen in their performance whereas the second group, which doesn't have real application as a resource to draw upon for inspiration, rely on their theory of how things will be to perform.

----

Jesper, my point was that fights, regardless of the styles involved, are a messy, chaotic, violent, etc. and don't look anything like good demos (which are meant to be clear displays of certain things). And many people look at demos and believe that they are good examples of how that art should "look" in application.

Demo's are a tricky thing. If you make it too realistic you will scare most that are there and get no interest in your school. If there is no interest made from the demo, then why do it in the first place. Therefore the ideas presented in the demo should be that of the THEORY behind the art, not the actual useage. Most wouldn't be able to recognize what is going on anyways so demonstrating for REAL would be a waste of time. When I demo, I'm not trying to demonstrate the exact useage of the art, I'm promoting my school and interest in the art. To do that you have to do more than just FIGHT, lol.

James

P.S. This is starting to get ridiculous

[t_niehoff]

Demo's are a tricky thing. If you make it too realistic you will scare most that are there and get no interest in your school. If there is no interest made from the demo, then why do it in the first place. Therefore the ideas presented in the demo should be that of the THEORY behind the art, not the actual useage. Most wouldn't be able to recognize what is going on anyways so demonstrating for REAL would be a waste of time. When I demo, I'm not trying to demonstrate the exact useage of the art, I'm promoting my school and interest in the art. To do that you have to do more than just FIGHT, lol.

James

P.S. This is starting to get ridiculous

There is nothing wrong with demos per se -- and we all seem to agree that they do not reflect reality. But that's my point: many people, particularly those without much or any experience, take what is demoed as reflecting reality. It is what is presented in that demo that appeals to these people ("I want to be able to do that"). But what is going on is that they are being misled, because that is not what they will be able to do.

And I think it is even more dishonest to demo THEORY, because for the most part, these are the sorts of things that are the most false but sell to the gullible ("you can defeat the alrger stronger person with little or no force").

In other words, demos are mainly false advertising practices. So they should be looked upon like the movies -- as entertainment only. At least with the functional guys, more "realism" is involved in their demos. And, you can see how they really do it outside of the demos before you buy what they are selling.

[sihing]

There is nothing wrong with demos per se -- and we all seem to agree that they do not reflect reality. But that's my point: many people, particularly those without much or any experience, take what is demoed as reflecting reality. It is what is presented in that demo that appeals to these people ("I want to be able to do that"). But what is going on is that they are being misled, because that is not what they will be able to do.

And I think it is even more dishonest to demo THEORY, because for the most part, these are the sorts of things that are the most false but sell to the gullible ("you can defeat the alrger stronger person with little or no force").

In other words, demos are mainly false advertising practices. So they should be looked upon like the movies -- as entertainment only. At least with the functional guys, more "realism" is involved in their demos. And, you can see how they really do it outside of the demos.

I can agree, if the one putting on the demo is giving false info, like you said stating "..with little or no force..bla bla bla..". I have a problem when people starting promoting fantasy fu as well. But still, not all of us are doing that. My idea behind a good demo is to do Theory, with practical demonstrations. But going haywire on my partner is not good either, it makes me look like a chump with a big ego problem. After it's over, people are free to ask questions, and if they do join the class they learn quickly that it takes time and effort to gain the skills. The idea behind demo's as I see is to promote your thing, spark some interest and get some students in there as well.

James

[TheSwedishChef]

That's the problem... since he never went hard against anything except the heavy bag, there was no way to know whether or not he could actually fight against a resisting opponent. Lots of people look very hard core when they practice on the bag, Mook Jong, focus gloves, kicking pads, doing forms, etc... however, it often all falls apart the first time they face someone who actually hits back with intent.




This is true. However, training full contact is much closer to reality than those whose training consists of only going halfway because their techniques are "too deadly" to be practiced all out.

You only say that because you never stood opposite him. And I didn't say he didn't spar. He was a into muay thai before shaolin and killing russians in afghanistan before that. He was two steps of you ahead every time when the gloves were on. It was crazy. And his ground game was the best I've ever seen. On top of that we all got good. The bar was very high. One of the sihings entered a MMA competition agianst an experienced guy who had 40 pounds on him and destroyed the guy. Sent him to the hospital and everything. So no probs with applications there.

There's very little real about rolling around on the mat in your speedo. I watched the "knifefighter vid". There were a million opportunities to bite, scratch and gouge that somehow weren't taken.


And by the way this has gotten way off the path. I've never said going hard was bad. I was demonstating the difference between Geppy's performance and Wagner's. And my point was when you're teaching, and that's what Wagner was doing there, you demonstrate light. Neither you nor I know for sure what his class is like or what he could do beyond what we can see in his form, speed and accuracy. I think there are few out there that would say he sucks.

[anerlich]

Demos are like fights in the movies -- done for entertainment value. Unfortunately, if that's all people see, they may begin to believe that's how fighting really is or that the demonstrator really has those "fighting skills"

You'd be better ambushing people as they enter the venue, taking them down and making them submit to strikes from the mount if you can't succeed in knocking them out first. Show them what REAL fighting is about. Everything else is a lie.

Every thread is becoming like a day I had a university - I was sitting round with some buds having an innocent conversation, and these two born-agains came along uninvited and asked us whether we'd been saved and if we were Christians, bla bla bla. We eventually had to split up and go elsewhere to avoid being bored to death by these lunatic zealots.

[Liddel]

Most BJJ demos I've seen (Rickson and Royler at Pride for example) have a good proportion of prearranged techniques. And they don't go full bor or full contact either.

I have this Demo on DVD...

One thing that came to mind is that when they bridge the hands into contact on thier feet they behave UNLIKE how they have in fighting....

I understand this in its 'context' and realise how it relates to a real fight if at all, and how its supplimented with other aspects of thier training not in the demo. It seems others dont treat VT in the same regard, due to thier
know-it-all-bias.

LOL :cool:

[t_niehoff]

You'd be better ambushing people as they enter the venue, taking them down and making them submit to strikes from the mount if you can't succeed in knocking them out first. Show them what REAL fighting is about. Everything else is a lie.


That's not what I am saying, and you know it.

FWIW, the whole notion of the martial art demo is sort of silly when you really think about it, and compare it to any other athletic activity/sport -- do we see demos in basketball, tennis, football, etc.? No. Because we can really see people doing those activities, actually engaging in them, and so don't "need" those players to demo what they would do (or more accurately, believe they would do) if they really played the game.

[sihing]

That's not what I am saying, and you know it.

FWIW, the whole notion of the martial art demo is sort of silly when you really think about it, and compare it to any other athletic activity/sport -- do we see demos in basketball, tennis, football, etc.? No. Because we can really see people doing those activities, actually engaging in them, and so don't "need" those players to demo what they would do (or more accurately, believe they would do) if they really played the game.

The problem with all of this is you are talking about two different things. Fighting is not the same as tennis, b-ball, f-ball, gold, etc.. They can easily demo those things without anyone getting hurt, can't do that realistically like you want to with combat arts. Yes they are all physical activities, but that is where the similarities end. Trying to control another person is different from throwing a ball IMO.

gotta run..

J

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey T,


That's not what I am saying, and you know it.

FWIW, the whole notion of the martial art demo is sort of silly when you really think about it, and compare it to any other athletic activity/sport -- do we see demos in basketball, tennis, football, etc.? No. Because we can really see people doing those activities, actually engaging in them, and so don't "need" those players to demo what they would do (or more accurately, believe they would do) if they really played the game.

I needed to take a break for a couple of weeks so I joined facebook and now have a whole other addiction.

Anyways, If you think about slam dunk contests that's like a demo. They're not playing b-ball, just demoing (not sure if that's a word) there skills. Demos aren't silly, it's just a way to market yourself.

[JPinAZ]

The problem with all of this is you are talking about two different things. Fighting is not the same as tennis, b-ball, f-ball, gold, etc.. They can easily demo those things without anyone getting hurt, can't do that realistically like you want to with combat arts. Yes they are all physical activities, but that is where the similarities end. Trying to control another person is different from throwing a ball IMO.

gotta run..

J

Good point!
Unless you're just comparring 'sports'.... ;)

JP

[anerlich]

That's not what I am saying, and you know it.


It was taking a stupid discussion to its stupid logical conclusion. After having it repeated over and over and at every possible opportunity, I *know* what you are saying.

The point was more the second paragraph, i.e. every thread being continually hijacked by the same zealotry and pap from you and the other apostate. Some people believe that stirring up controversy is never boring, you've successfully proved the opposite.

[Liddel]

That's not what I am saying, and you know it.

FWIW, the whole notion of the martial art demo is sort of silly when you really think about it, and compare it to any other athletic activity/sport -- do we see demos in basketball, tennis, football, etc.? No. Because we can really see people doing those activities, actually engaging in them, and so don't "need" those players to demo what they would do (or more accurately, believe they would do) if they really played the game.

Terrence i think its half and half, your right we see more of them playing the game so we dont need a full demo per se, but actually elements of co operation and pre determined sequences not able to be pulled off with as much ease in the "Game" come through in sport demos....

Harlem Globetrotters comes to mind - they do some flashy stuff and obviously have sick skillz, but they co operate with each other and do alot of team sequence moves that would be hard pressed to acheive with un co operative opponents in a "Game".

Its a shame lots of styles dont show full force fighting Demos, but its just a slice of what they have for others to view and doesnt always dictate the styles effectiveness or not.....just the individuals....

[sihing]

Good point!
Unless you're just comparring 'sports'.... ;)

JP

Most all individual sports concentrate on manipulation of an inanimate object, something with no mind and ability to move itself. Yes there is another human across from you doing the same thing in some sports, but not to you but rather to the inanimate object. Whereas fighting is about someone trying to control you and you trying to control him PHYSICALLY, something with a mind and the muscles to do it. A 150lbs weight is heavy, give it a mind and the ability to control it's own weight and it becomes 10 times heavier. Much different than throwing a baseball, or hitting a over head smash. I can hold a 150lbs barbell standing on my upper chest easy, trying doing that to someone resisting.

James

[Knifefighter]

Most all individual sports concentrate on manipulation of an inanimate object, something with no mind and ability to move itself.

Judo, boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Sambo, Muay Thai- all of these have opponents who are fully resisting and either trying to hurt you or control you. These are combat arts that are trained as all other sports are trained... that is why they fare better in fighting than the arts that somehow think they should be different than other human athletic activities.

[TheSwedishChef]

They don't think that. Some just don't spar as much as they should. Didn't I allude to this earlier?

[sihing]

Judo, boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Sambo, Muay Thai- all of these have opponents who are fully resisting and either trying to hurt you or control you. These are combat arts that are trained as all other sports are trained... that is why they fare better in fighting than the arts that somehow think they should be different than other human athletic activities.

Of course you have to train similiarly when it comes to the "Conditioning" aspect of it, but like you guys always say, training is nothing like the real thing, lol. When T makes the statement, fighting is just like any other physical activity, why would you compare the training aspect of it? Look at the activity itself. You need different skill sets and IMO higher level of skill in fighting arts than in sports due to the degree of difficulty of the task at hand. Unless of course you outclass your opponent so much. I'm not saying you can fight at your highest effectiveness without good/great physical conditioning, as I agree that you do need good fitness to be at your best. But fitness and effectiveness are all relative to someone's individual abilities, and effectiveness can also be improved by doing things that are more efficient, simple and direct as compared to being unefficient, complex, and indirect. Some of us will never be world class fighters, but if there is improvement as compared to day one, then you have acheived a partial goal.

I just heard from a friend that had a seminar with a very popular MMA superstar (UFC fighter). I won't mention names, but this fighter was answering questions about a recent defeat and he said this "I lost that fight, I was not beaten. The other guy had a game plan and worked that plan into his training. I didn't have a game plan and because of that I lost". This to me shows the big difference between MMA, or sport fighting and real street fighting. In the later there is no preknowledge of your opponent, no pretraining regimend, no nothing. The skill sets, training, mentality are different.

James

[Wayfaring]

Of course you have to train similiarly when it comes to the "Conditioning" aspect of it, but like you guys always say, training is nothing like the real thing, lol. When T makes the statement, fighting is just like any other physical activity, why would you compare the training aspect of it? Look at the activity itself. You need different skill sets and IMO higher level of skill in fighting arts than in sports due to the degree of difficulty of the task at hand. Unless of course you outclass your opponent so much. I'm not saying you can fight at your highest effectiveness without good/great physical conditioning, as I agree that you do need good fitness to be at your best. But fitness and effectiveness are all relative to someone's individual abilities, and effectiveness can also be improved by doing things that are more efficient, simple and direct as compared to being unefficient, complex, and indirect. Some of us will never be world class fighters, but if there is improvement as compared to day one, then you have acheived a partial goal.

And yet sometimes the disheartening thing is that in your average boxing gym with amateur boxers you'll find almost every single person training has a higher level of commitment to doing roadwork, doing bagwork, and developing their physical condition to a greater degree than in 95%+ of martial arts schools.

Your average wrestling team quotes "your conditioning is your greatest hold".

I think a weakness of martial artists training in school is they want the "magic" that will allow them to be "deadly" without effort. People would rather be deluded. They don't want to hear that stronger people will defeat weaker people, that there is no "magic" but hard work, and that you get out what you put in.

[Knifefighter]

Of course you have to train similiarly when it comes to the "Conditioning" aspect of it,

You've got it backwards... while conditoning should try to mimick athletic movements, the condiitoning aspect of training is probably the one part that is furthest from the actual activitiy.


... but like you guys always say, training is nothing like the real thing, lol.

The better your training is, the closer it will be to the real thing... specifity of training. If possible, training should actually be harder than the real thing.



When T makes the statement, fighting is just like any other physical activity, why would you compare the training aspect of it? Look at the activity itself.

That's exactly what we are doing. Trying to make training as close to actual fighting as possible. Striking, clinching, throwing, grappling and groundfighting at full force is closer to the real thing than only doing one aspect of fighting and/or doing it at less than full force and/or pretending to eye gouge, throat strike, and break fingers.

And those people who stand around in training going through all their deadly drills without even breathing hard are the furthest of all from actual fighting. If training does not make the participants end up breathing heavily from training sessions, it is 180 degrees from what happens in actual fighting.


You need different skill sets and IMO higher level of skill in fighting arts than in sports due to the degree of difficulty of the task at hand.

Every sport has high degrees of difficulty. Wrestling against a Division 1 All American wreslter is much more difficult and requires much more skill than fighting a couple of drunk guys stumbling out of a bar at 2:00 AM... same with any number of sports.



But fitness and effectiveness are all relative to someone's individual abilities, and effectiveness can also be improved by doing things that are more efficient, simple and direct as compared to being unefficient, complex, and indirect.

And the latter is exactly the way the majority of TMA people train. "Sport" training is the most effective means for developing the most efficient, simple, and direct methods for fighting.

Training "for the streets" and "self-defense" is usually what leads to the most inefficient, indirect and complex methods.


Some of us will never be world class fighters, but if there is improvement as compared to day one, then you have acheived a partial goal.

Unless one is fighting, he will never have any ideal of whether or not he is improving.

[sihing]

You've got it backwards... while conditoning should try to mimick athletic movements, the condiitoning aspect of training is probably the one part that is furthest from the actual activitiy.



The better your training is, the closer it will be to the real thing... specifity of training. If possible, training should actually be harder than the real thing.




That's exactly what we are doing. Trying to make training as close to actual fighting as possible. Striking, clinching, throwing, grappling and groundfighting at full force is closer to the real thing than only doing one aspect of fighting and/or doing it at less than full force and/or pretending to eye gouge, throat strike, and break fingers.

And those people who stand around in training going through all their deadly drills without even breathing hard are the furthest of all from actual fighting. If you are not breathing heavily from training sessions, you are 180 degrees from what happens in actual fighting.



Every sport has high degrees of difficulty. Wrestling against a Division 1 All American wreslter is much more difficult and requires much more skill than fighting a couple of drunk guys stumbling out of a bar at 2:00 AM... same with any number of sports.




And the latter is exactly the way the majority of TMA people train. "Sport" training is the most effective means for developing the most efficient, simple, and direct methods for fighting.

The people who train "for the streets" are usually the ones who have the most inefficient, indirect and complex methods.



Unless you are fighting, you will never have any ideal of whether or not you are improving.



Explain the different skill sets and mentality between "real street fighting" and sport fighting.

I think were talking about two different things here Dale. T said the fighting is like any other sport/athletic activity. Yes fighting is physical, but to compare "Sports" to "Fighting" is incorrect IMO. The two things are totally different, as I explained in the previous posts.

I agree that you need to work at intense physical levels while training to acheive skill, and I agree that alot of MA are looking for the magic method, that will give them fighting ability with little effort. This is fantasy fu, and I don't believe in it. Also, I agree that to see if there is improvement in your effectiveness as a fighter you have to fight, othewise how do you know?

The difference in skills sets and mentality between "real street fighting" and "sport", is what I said earlier. There is no preliminary knowledge of the event on the street (as I'm sure you know Dale). You could be having a good time, with friends, a few drinks in you, tight jeans on, then Bam your right in the middle of it. Sport fighting gives you the competitor the prior knowledge of the event, who you are fighting and the opponents strenghts and weaknesses. You don't have that luxury on the street. Now, I am not saying that the MMA guys can't fight on the street, but you have to compare the two on the same level. If the pro MMA guy was taken out of his environment (no fulltime training, no coaches, full time job, life stresses with kids, bills, commute time, etc.), and also put the average guy on a more regimend training system, you would have a more even playing ground for comparison. Yeah, if the avergage guy is only training forms, he will lose. If the training in the hall is weak, you get poor results....

Gotta run

James

[Knifefighter]

I

The difference in skills sets and mentality between "real street fighting" and "sport", is what I said earlier.

Of course they are different. The fact is, unless one is regularly going out and getting in street fights, no one is truly training "for the streets". However, the training methods of sport fighting are better at developing the skills needed for the real thing than are most "self-defense" and "street fighting" methods.

Terrence summed it up pretty well when he said:
"But another way to look at that is that there is fighting, the activity (like there is running, the activity), and how and where it is used is a changable and variable factor (running in a race or running for your life from a mugger). Developing skill (your performance ability) in fighting or running will permit a person to adapt it to any situation."



There is no preliminary knowledge of the event on the street

And by the same token, the opponent has no pre-knowledge of your game.


Sport fighting gives you the competitor the prior knowledge of the event, who you are fighting and the opponents strenghts and weaknesses. You don't have that luxury on the street.

And neither does your opponent, so it evens things out.


Now, I am not saying that the MMA guys can't fight on the street, but you have to compare the two on the same level. If the pro MMA guy was taken out of his environment (no fulltime training, no coaches, full time job, life stresses with kids, bills, commute time, etc.), and also put the average guy on a more regimend training system, you would have a more even playing ground for comparison.

Actually, if the MMA guy is competing and the other guy is only training, the MMA guy will have a huge advantage.

[sihing]

Of course they are different. The fact is, unless one is regularly going out and getting in street fights, no one is truly training "for the streets". However, the training methods of sport fighting are better at developing the skills needed for the real thing than are most "self-defense" and "street fighting" methods.

Terrence summed it up pretty well when he said:
"But another way to look at that is that there is fighting, the activity (like there is running, the activity), and how and where it is used is a changable and variable factor (running in a race or running for your life from a mugger). Developing skill (your performance ability) in fighting or running will permit a person to adapt it to any situation."




And by the same token, the opponent has no pre-knowledge of your game.



And neither does your opponent, so it evens things out.



Actually, if the MMA guy is competing and the other guy is only training, the MMA guy will have a huge advantage.


Who says the TCMA guy is only training? Maybe, just maybe he is training in the same gym as the MMA guy and is sparring with them regularly, but he doesn't compete? Nobody here is saying you can get good at fighting without fighting, your just saying that ONLY MMA guys are doing it? Competiting in a competition is not the only way to test yourself. Lots of good fighters out there that don't compete.

Fighting is a part of the training, and if you are not doing that activity, you are not at peak performance, that is given. Also, is the factor that you must be in fighting shape to fight at your best, but also mentally if you are not there you will not perform the best, that is also a factor. So far MMA training gives us the best opportinity to do that, not all people that train in a MMA gym compete, and we as so called TCMA guys can easily incorporate their training into our regimends, I have no problem with that.

The training in sports and fighting may be similar, but the actual performance of the two "Physical Activities" is totally unrelated IMO.

James

[Knifefighter]

Who says the TCMA guy is only training? Maybe, just maybe he is training in the same gym as the MMA guy and is sparring with them regularly, but he doesn't compete?

Then, basically, they would be doing the same training.


Nobody here is saying you can get good at fighting without fighting, your just saying that ONLY MMA guys are doing it? Competiting in a competition is not the only way to test yourself. Lots of good fighters out there that don't compete.

The guy who competes has the advantage over the guy who doesn't.


The training in sports and fighting may be similar, but the actual performance of the two "Physical Activities" is totally unrelated IMO.

As someone who has done quite a bit of both, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this.

[byond1]

Just some general observations

ALL WCK has good and bad practitioners.I have seen some very good WT, that Iwas pleasantly able to learn something from, and i have seen horrible WT. Same for VT, TWC, and many differant Mainland Branchs.

I am reluctant to accept the terms of Master and Sifu, from most. As the obvious lack of skill is apparent, when these so called masters are seen via Demo mode, and is more of a financial deal that anything else , with their "Master". Now a demo is only a demo, so i think we can take it for what it is, in general. But a Demo also shows if someone breaks the most basic WCK principles or concepts.

I have been unhappy with the quality of WCK i see coming out of countries that are newer to the WCK system. There is an apparent degradation in skill level, to the stringent levels, held in places where WCK has settled and developed for a period of time

I personaly think that anyone training any part of WCK, without it being trained for "Fighting"/combat , is misunderstanding what we are doing. So many on the internet, attempt to teach others a "Fighting" method, and yet have never been in a fight. So many," know it all", WCKers, have never seen first hand, the things that happen in real combat, or felt all the strange things that happen to the body chemicaly. This is something TN has been kind to point out for awile. Most wont get it until they get into that first fight, and completly crumble.

The MYJ is another tool for training differant skills. The jong form, comprises a....summary of the 3 hand forms, used as 1 unit. The traditional Wooden Jong, is also used in full Jing/Ging manefestation, as you cant do that on a training partner, thus help engraining and reinforcing the 'whole body methods". It works obvious things like training the body to respond to certain positions, but also has its limits, and can never be ones only training partner!~

My personal opinion on the original clips posted, in particular the jong form, lacks any Ging expression into the jong. It seems like its "All Hands" and no body use. The structures used are to my standard, sloppy. The level of the Jong isnt set properly in relation to the body of the practitioner, which than reinforces improper relationships. We have to train in the middle ground, so than we can raise or lower what we do. If we always train high, reaching up, when we have to lower, we will have some issues. I have witnessed practitioners experiance this during compitition.
It also looks differant to WT, as i see characteristics of other H.K WCK branchs mixed in, such as TWC.

[A Soave]

Dovreste ottenere una lama e un bushel ed andare cogliere chicory anziché ala Wing Chun, ed andare fanno un'insalata, (o il vino).


Rough Translation: Instead of practicing Wing Chun, you guys should get a knife and a bushel and go pick chicory and go make a salad (or some wine).


Zio Antonio

[A Soave]

Not even close to TWC. Where have you ever seen hands (or body movement) in any TWC?