Any older branches of Wing Chun? [Archive]

byond1

05-18-2007, 07:14 PM

Hi Brothers,

I think everyone will really enjoy the material. And i really have to thank EVERYONE, who has helped. My partner that runs our sister sites, Everything WC and WCarchives, has been a huge support structure for me, and has been able to fill in my lack of "back end" computer / Web skills. He also uses his WCK in NHB, and is one of the guys helping to put WCKs name, back onto peoples tongues, as something to respect.

Anyone interested in contributing articles representing their system, feel free to email me. We dont make value judgments on any material or lineage. This is a piece of work for everyone in the community, and we hope to represent everyone, as best as we can, the way they want.

To get peoples mouths watering:

*We are working on the largest Glossary ever, for the WCK system, as well as a Time line!

*We have information supplied, for the first time, by the Chinese inheritors of the Tang and Chu Chong Man Families, setting the record straight, from their perspective, on what is the family system, vs. the Dai Duk Lan system, vs. What is sold in the west as "Chi Shim Weng Chun". A DVD documentary is in the works also.
Derek is great Kung Fu brother and his help has been incredible in bringing this information to the public

*We have, for the first time in the west, a small exposure to the Lo Kwai family system. The gem has remained hidden from even most Chinese, and is about as tight lipped as the Fung Family of Kulo Village. In fact in their lineage chart, there is only 1 non family member to learn the art. Currently we are working on getting some photo sequences up and more detailed information. This is one reason there has been a hold up on the Debut of the Pedia, as i want this in place for everyones enjoyment.

This will blow some minds, as they preserve their system in 1 single form, very similar to Cho Gar Siu Lien Tau. They also contain material that is only found in Cho Gar, YKS, and Kulo. This material is missing from most Modern WCK branchs, and is how we authenticated the Lo Kwai Branch. The common denominators of these older branchs is what we will be comparing to the Weng Chun County White Crane, when we start work on the book.

*We are also working on a very detailed article on Cho family, which is going to set the record straight on many levels and help clairify to the west, what the art of Poon Yu village is really like, as well as the traditions preserved by Cho On family. This is important due to limited exposure in the west, for Cho Gar.

Of cource Big Brother Eric Ling has done ALOT for WCK, just in the last month, and im amazed at his "Big Picture" Vision. I have enough trouble wrestling with WCK and White Crane, let alone 75 differant Kung Fu styles!!!~ LOL

*One of the best articles on TWC, i have ever read, is a proud addition to our article section. I have to thank Victor Sifu, for his time and patience. I knew by his clear method of communicating, he would create something special, and he really did. Even surpasing my expectations

*We also have a new article on Fut Sau WCK that Mike did a great job on.

*New Information on Hei Ban Wing Chun and the most indepth article yet, is in the works

In the future, we have a detailed article on the Fung Family WCK tradition. A DVD will be in the works as well. We are going to share for the first time with the west, the first basic level training of the closed door tradition.

We have also uncovered another branch of Kulo, that preserves Longer Linked San Sik forms, and may prove to be of great interest to our community.

Lee Shing family has been very great and are going to be working on new articles, with focus on the Kulo material they preserve.

And something else im very very excited about is im working on several articles with a direct student of Sum Nung, on Yuen Kay Shan WCK. This has a special place in my heart, and i hope to be able to add something, to all of the great information Rene and Robert have shared in the past, with the community. This is very specificaly on "Application" - and how to use your WCK, in this modern world we live in, while remaining within the WCK Criterion. Im not writing it though, im ...using a interview format, and simply dictating, what the Sifu relates to me.

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RR - well, you are getting up there LOL - but so am i. My birthday, my Fiances, and her sons all fell in the first week of May!! Triple Bull's!!!!
Your work has special meaning to me, as your efforts first introduced me to YKS WCK, which has impacted my life and understanding greatly.

I have always hoped you would Author YKS part 2, introducing perhaps CK or the Jong methods of Ngo Sifu. Ng Lo Kay is one of the best in our family, IMO, and his structure looks soooo much like Sigung. I hope to see more of him in the future.

Your work set the standard, IMO. You share - you open up things - but do it , in a way, that - doesnt....give away the pearls. I think this is the best way. Help introduce people, and than if the have an interest, they can formaly study under a Sifu. Im modeling all of my work on this method.

Robert - Thanks. Im a musician, and i think my dichotomy was formulated from that influence.
Thank you for all your work as well. You, RR, and Marty did alot to open up the community. I hope we can keep the doors opening wider.

Vic - yes. I agree. The WCpedia will exemplifiy "Wing Chun" For ever growing and always renewing. There are a few things i want to complete though. The Cho Gar and Lo Kwai information is very important to me and the community. I have hopes of having this in place. Im also reworking some of the Bios for the Ancestors. We are begining the reformating of everything, and getting all the pictures up over the next 2 weeks. So the debut is getting very very close. Spring is here!!!

I have hopes to really expand the Kuen Kuit section. So any one intrested in contributing, email me at - deadletter6@yahoo.com. I also have hopes of putting up White Crane Kuen Kuit for comparison.

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The Future??? After the WCpedia debuts, WCarchives, EverythingWC, and the WCfightclub have a new Sister being born. Its the official "Ancestral Wing Chun Kuen Research Institute" web site and forum (AWCKRI for short). The AWCKRI is independent of the other sites. As the WCpedia is neutral, the AWCKRI will tackle head on, what we feel is or isnt WCK, as well as the historical roots and development of the system.We begin work on our Book- that includes :

1) A more likely- than not, recontruction of Ban Chung Red boat WCK using YKS, Kulo , Lo Kwai, Mai Gai Wong, Cho Gar, and Tang Gar. Pulling all the common denominators, discarding the unique lineage inflections.

2) Compare and contrasting the Ban Chung Red Boat WCK to Weng Chun County White Crane via technical writting, Kuen Kuit and photo sequences.

Im going to H.K in October, as Lee Sifu has agreed to meet with me, share our kung fu and discuss him working on the book with us. This is incredible as Lee Sifu coauthored one of the first books on White Crane, and wrote an article years ago comparing WCK to White Crane. I also have hopes of Sui Sifu working with us, and would "round out" the White Crane examples, by showing the older harder ging method.

This will hopefully prove once and for all, that WCK, that is from the Opera troupes, is a child of the white crane and snake.

3) Using the dichotomy system, Robert mentioned, we plan on , via Photo sequencing show the stages of WCKs evolution, from Red Boat 1850s all the way down to USA WCK 1960s. This is going to blow minds and doors!! And im sure will stir up a "Spot of balor". Also included in this, is the Debunking of the idea of a "Weng Chun" system that predated the "Wing Chun" system, and very plainly showing there was only 1 system, called WCK, that evolved due to each student that learned it, and what arts they already knew, as well as their particular focus as well as that of their teacher.

The work as a whole hopes to define what Opera Troupe 1850s Wing CHun Kuen was, where it came from, and how it evolved, over the years, into several differant modern WCK branchs. This will also show there is no "Oldest" WCK currently. There are only several differant systems that preserve older material, and they all need to be used to unlock the truth.

I will keep everyone posted over the next few weeks!!~

Brian

Vajramusti

05-18-2007, 08:28 PM

You have taken ona huge task. FWIW-Some info in passing on the site.

1. Augustine Fong has had the largest glossary of terms to date and it is on his site.

2. While Augustine Fong is the best known disciple of Ho kam Ming- there are quite a few other good wing chunfolks that have learned from master Ho. Some have had winning recirds in full contact fighting including MT opponents- these insclude Tam Kam Hinh, Lui Ming Fai and Chen Tinh Yan of Macao

3.Among Fong students- Daniel Chan and Dan Maricich are very much my sihings.
Also on the Fong site there are other very good bros. and sisters listed including Tony Frighetti, Carina Cirrincione and Raoul Van Iotti.

back to standard programming, with good wishes

joy chaudhuri

Vajramusti

05-18-2007, 08:32 PM

You have taken ona huge task. FWIW-Some info in passing on the site.

1. Augustine Fong has had the largest glossary of terms to date and it is on his site.

2. While Augustine Fong is the best known sifu to come from the Ho kam Ming- lineage,there are quite a few other good wing chunfolks that have learned from master Ho. Some have had winning records in full contact fighting including MT opponents- these insclude Tam Kam Hinh, Lui Ming Fai and Chen Tinh Yan of Macao

3.Among Fong students- Daniel Chan and Dan Maricich are very much my sihings.
Also on the Fong site there are other very good bros. and sisters listed including Tony Frighetti, Carina Cirrincione and Raoul Van Iotti.

back to standard programming, with good wishes

joy chaudhuri

Shadow_warrior8

05-19-2007, 12:02 AM

Its a glorious time for wingchun and the charge is led by many generals like yourself, Bro eric and the others you mentioned who have lit the way for years.
A great site!!! Will be one of the greatest source of WCK info, if not the greatest already.
Alot of work done on your part Bro, thumbs up!!!!
Dont think anywhere can we find info like that so readily available. Helps to find and recognise the flavour of the wingchun(like noodles, chicken or thai flavour...heh heh)
Hongkong in Oct huh? Maybe I can meet ya there for yum cha....its only 3 hrs flight from here.
Drooling for your updates already.....slurp slurp......crane and snake flavour heh heh.......

P/s Oh Bro, pls remember to edit the info as spoken. As I have said all along and might as well put it on record, I have never said I speak for anyone or any lineage. Just myself. Like the chinese say, not worth one mention. Just a small fry who learnt abit from some sifus who were gracious enough to share to me their art.
Wouldnt want to further cause any misunderstandings or misinterpretations. :) :) :D

Vajramusti

05-19-2007, 08:35 AM

PS- Brian -in addition to glossary=dictionary of terms (on Fong site)..

Augustine Fong back around 1980 published a bunch of books- now out of print.
One key one was on wing chun principles and concepts whose content shows up in other places and even books from time to time. It has the largest list of kuen kuit and principles in the forms in the Ip man lines plus discussion of external and internal elements in wing chun .Dan Lucas's old site used to have the kuen kuit from that book.

joy chaudhuri

Hendrik

05-19-2007, 10:36 AM

*We are also working on a very detailed article on Cho family, which is going to set the record straight on many levels and help clairify to the west, what the art of Poon Yu village is really like, as well as the traditions preserved by Cho On family. This is important due to limited exposure in the west, for Cho Gar.

I will keep everyone posted over the next few weeks!!~

Brian

Brian,

Excellent!

After years of both Robert and Rene's continous big effort helping Yik Kam and Cho family lineage, now the story continous on.. Excellent. and Keep up with the good work.

Also, here I would like to again announce that Sifu Robert Chu has indeed inherit the Yik kam set and Kuen Kuit which is directly transmitted down from Yik Kam, Cho Soon, Cho Dak-Shing/Sam Chan, Cho On, Cho Hong Choy, and myself.

To everyone who is interested in Yik Kam lineage and Cho family art.

I would like to share with you the following points so that everyone will contribute an excellent part of the effort to preserve the art if you decide to do research and write about the family.

1, Proper Generation title with a clear path.

One thing I would like to advise to all the Cho family researchers is on the lineage family tree generation position.

For example, my sifu Late Cho Hung -Choy, learn first from Cho On, then Cho Chuen, then Sam Chan. In the family Tree, Cho Hung-Choy is always under Cho On even he is dotted line with Sam Chan which is his sigung generation. In Cho Hung-Choy's writting that is the way he set himself.

We would like to avoid jumping generation, Say, a person learn from the sifu, then go learn from the sigung or great sigung, this person in Chinese tradition is not going to be placement under the sigung or great sigung. place oneself under the sigung generation or under the great sigung generation is a violation of chinese tradition, the mandarin tearm is Luan Loon or chaos in generation.

As a chinese this is serious stuffs for Chinese Tradition. I hope this is taken seriously while coming up with family tree. Dotted line could be as much as possible, however, solid line must only be one with the original sifu of the family.

2, Clarity about Yik Kam art and Cho family art and localized evolution, where and WHen.

Yik Kam art is recorded and transmitted with the Set, Kuen Kuit, and specfic transmission of uniqueness. as for Cho family art, start from the time of my sijo Cho Dak-Shing, localize Evolution begung in a large scale. Thus, if one compare Sam Chan's art and Cho family art there are differences. Eventhought Sam Chan and Cho Dak-Shing are from the same generation. and infact, some 40 years ago these variantion was discussed in Penang Malaysia among the elderly.

So, it is very important to be clear about the type of evolution and where and when. even in the same location, art evolve with time. knowing or un knowingly.

3, The Standard is setted by the ancestors, family tree position for the art and family tree position for the relationship.

Yik Kam art is based on an Internal art platform.

From Yik Kam to Cho Soon, Cho Dak-Sing, Cho On, to Cho Hong-Choy, for 5 generation, we kow via the writting of Yik Kam kuen kuit (be it from Sam Chan side or Cho family side ) and Cho Hong Choy's personal letter, we know via evident, Internal is a core of thier SLT. IE: bea ble to sinking Zhen Qi to Dan Dien is a key point.

Thus, ancestors' standard , must not be discount or negotiate.

that is the standard setted by the Yik Kam and Cho ancestors. Even if the practitioners is not aware of or could not reach that advance state. The ancestors, standard must not be comprimise.

Yes, even in the begining level in order to enter the SLT of Yik Kam, there is something called the 5th Stanza which is specificly dealing with sinking Qi to Dan Dian and handling the Du Madirian and also the Spine. That is the practice of the ancestors. either one has it or not, that must not be discount or compremise.

on an advance level, one will attain the activation of the 8 special medrians, there and only there on would start to know what is it mean by " spontaneously let the nature take its corse" teaching. and that today we could relate to be able to alter state to the alpha wave state of the EEG at will.

There are level and levels of attainment in Yik Kam's SLT. Thus, this key is very important to make alive what it is rather then what one think it is.

and it is a factual reality that without the True transmission of the lineage from sifu to student, one simply dont know and could not imagine what it is about. and if one doesnt know how could one teach? and what could one passed to the next generation?

Thus, that goes back to the position in the generation, does one have this transmission? if not one might not even belong to the family tree for the art, but belong's to the family tree for the relationship. and both are non negotiable.

In general, there are 3 stages in the training, the first is the activation of the diaphramatic breathing or the smooth flow of the Ren Medirian, the second is the activation of the Du medirian, where the Dan Dien is activate, the spine is handling properly. in this state, one be able to know what " Yee lead Qi, Qi transport physical' means. The third state is the return to the spontaneous, in this state one be able to sense the action and response to internal/external action spontaneous and naturally. as it said, Comes accept, Goes return, let go and thrust forward....using silence to handle action.

this is a general path of from entering the door to advance. and it cannot be negotiate. otherwise, one could not have the kung fu. One must know clearly where one is since that give the direction of one's training.

4, well define uniqueness

The uniqueness of Yik Kam and Cho family art must be clearly define and specified since a lineage is not about a mixing or a collection of scatering STuffs. But a unique way.

So, nope, not everyone can be an expert or pioneer unless one have the transmission, know the art, and have in depth insight of the art. and that is non negotiable. it is just a facture reality.

We all need to be really carefull so that we are helping to preserve the art, thus, I hope with the above 4 points which I have learned in the past, we could all success with ease with our research.

Best Regards
Hendrik

Jim Roselando

05-21-2007, 06:25 AM

Hi Brian,

*We have, for the first time in the west, a small exposure to the Lo Kwai family system. The gem has remained hidden from even most Chinese, and is about as tight lipped as the Fung Family of Kulo Village. In fact in their lineage chart, there is only 1 non family member to learn the art. Currently we are working on getting some photo sequences up and more detailed information. This is one reason there has been a hold up on the Debut of the Pedia, as i want this in place for everyones enjoyment.

This will blow some minds, as they preserve their system in 1 single form, very similar to Cho Gar Siu Lien Tau. They also contain material that is only found in Cho Gar, YKS, and Kulo. This material is missing from most Modern WCK branchs, and is how we authenticated the Lo Kwai Branch.

Nice work Brian!

Lo Kwai question for you?

I would be curious to know where or how the Lo Kwai Wing Chun system picked up the so-called Weng kuen kuit if they have not had contact with them?

(teng nuo yee shun shuok)

This is "not" Wing Chun so its jumping out at me. It could be worth investigation as its easy to say anything these days (common in WC/MA world) and we all need to keep our eyes open for odd stuff and help each other with the authenticating process. I remember Grandpa researcher Rene (yeah/your old school I guess RR) used to point out lots of stuff to me when I would bounce things his way or off him. If he (and others) didn't, I would have taken many trips down wrong roads that may have taken longer to walk out of once I added my own specualtion/theory to them etc..

Things that make you go hmmmm :)

BTW:

I like to see this stuff come out more and more because it actually shows how all the arts are essentially very similar. A few tricks or techniques (maybe even flavor) here and there between lineages but in reality all similar. The core 4 (+) directions of Hand Skill can only be used/combined (single/double handed) in so many ways. So, the Cho set is one longer, YKS (and other futshan) uses 3, Ku Lo uses 12 Hands, etc.. For me, the mystery of WC is solved and its nice to see the private arts being more open but the real gold is not in the systems but the cultivation of body & power generation. Its what makes WC WC.

Gotta run but thanks again for sharing (everyone)!

Hendrik

05-21-2007, 10:19 AM

This will blow some minds, as they preserve their system in 1 single form, very similar to Cho Gar Siu Lien Tau. They also contain material that is only found in Cho Gar, YKS, and Kulo. This material is missing from most Modern WCK branchs, and is how we authenticated the Lo Kwai Branch. ------- B

Jim,

I take it Brian will present the cross evidents from all the above families to prove his points when he mention the above. let's wait and learn.

Best Regards
Hendrik

Jim Roselando

05-21-2007, 11:24 AM

Hey HS & B,

HS wrote;

Jim,

I take it Brian will present the cross evidents from all the above families to prove his points when he mention the above. let's wait and learn.

Not trying to prove or disprove anything and has nothing against the site. It is one of the best archives for Wing/Weng arts. :)

1 reason i have asked about this is GM Fung Chun recently spoke out in magazine interview about an WC system/person claiming to be from LJ lineage. He wanted people to know so they can have caveat and firmly denyied his art in public writing. Pretty bold move for the old guy hahaha. He well in his 80's! I am not sure if this is the system but it quite possibly be so why not mention the odd thing so it can be investigated or checked out? GM Fung Chun mentioned a name (and the person was in Canton if memory is ok) but I haven't got it in front of me!

Hope that clears any confusion up! :cool:

For me, Old WC, Young WC or what ever and where ever it comes from is essentially all the same stuff. I used to think different but I dont anymore. I like the site because it will show the above the deepeer we look into Wing & Weng families. Look at Por Suk demo, Sum Nung demo & Fung Chun demo side by side. How much difference is there? Not much at all except sequences/sets! I see the same kind of stuff.

Gotta run!

Hendrik

05-21-2007, 02:09 PM

1 reason i have asked about this is GM Fung Chun recently spoke out in magazine interview about an WC system/person claiming to be from LJ lineage.

He wanted people to know so they can have caveat and firmly denyied his art in public writing. Pretty bold move for the old guy hahaha. He well in his 80's!

I guess since he is in his 80's he could be not PC and also we could not play pioneer to ask him to show his postion or read his kuen kuit to justify him. hahaha.

It is always great to be old.

Best Regards
Hendrik

byond1

05-21-2007, 04:55 PM

Hi Brothers,

Joy - Thanks for the information. We have a fairly extensive list of Yip Man clan on WCArchives. I need to take that information and migrate it into the Pedia, to fill out the Yip Man info- thats why its not currently very detailed. I will make sure the names you listed are included.

Fong did help establish WCK in the USA in the 70s. I actualy had hopes of writing an article on the "NYC WCK" from the early 70s. The one person i approached, who had learned from a large number of the sifus, that were in NYC, during the 70s, evidently wasnt interested. So without his help, im not sure how i would be able to get a detailed picture, as most only learned from one or two, differant teachers, in that time period. This was the time period that- Lee Moy Shan, Moy Yat, Henry Leung, Duncan Leung, Chow K. , than Alan Lee and William Cheung branchs, settled and developed in the USA.

Fong was very...open, with the later stages of WCK training. His books were very detailed, and his glossary was the largest, until now.:) Great contributions to the WCK community.
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Shadow -

Understood. Already corrected. It would have been sooner, but i had to travel out for the funeral, i mentioned.
Your a great Brother and have been a motivator and support structure for me. I owe you alot. Your sincere hope of bringing Ku Choi Wah Sifu the recognition he deserves, is very honorable, and i hope all in your family, see the purity of your intent.
Working with some of the....more...politicaly stricken WCK systems, has taught me Patience!!~ We can always use the times in life, that many look at as negative, into oppurtunity for growth and change and to work on our "No Mind".

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Jim -

I felt no negativity in your post at all, and i understand exaclty what you are saying and I agree. We all need to help support each others work in the way you mentioned. Bouncing info off of a group of Peers, is the core idea behind the AWCKRI.
Thanks for the information. I remember you mentioned that in another post and I forgot to respond, as i have had alot going on. I had a death in the family, and just got back to Ohio.

You are correct about the Kuen Kuit, and i noticed that as well, once i was going back over material. BUT, Lo Kwai family is not found in China. They escaped with the Nationalists. And they only teach to members of the family. The lineage Fung Chun Sigung speaks about, (in my understanding) is a Leung Chun Lineage from Canton.

I have to say this on the Kuen Kuit you mentioned:

1) It could have been my mistake. Im currently waiting to find out, if i cut and pasted somthing by accident.

2) Its not a "Weng Chun" Kuen Kuit across the board. Its a Kuen Kuit that Andreas Hoffman Sifu, has passed down, in his version of the Cheng Kwong/Dai Duk Lan/Andreas Hoffman hybred system, that he teachs in Germany, that he calls "Chi Shim Weng Chun".

3) Lo Kwai like Cho Shun, already practised CMA. I would have to check my notes to tell you what system Lo practised. Its a good posibility that the Kuen Kuit was something he passed down from his other system. Or the later Family members could have imported it. Just as many branchs of WCK have modern Kuen Kuit that crept into the art. They have remained in Taiwan for a very long time, so we could also assume an indiginous CMA influence is also possible.

4) Kuen Kuit are part of the criterion for comparisons, not the only criterion. The system itself, horse and body use, ging faat, concepts, training and conditioning ect are of utmost importance in my opinion. Many things found in Lo Kwais system prove its authentisity, byond a doubt - (to me). If you are interested, i would be happy to share privatly, a few basics. Drop me an email.

I believe that particular Kuen Kuit is from a soutern Siu Lum origin.

As i mentioned, i have a heavy burden, as i first have to respect the system, ancestors and sifus. We refuse to simply give away the jewels. So we have to present the material in a way, that...those that know will know, and those that dont, wont, but will have a starting point for knowing, if they are open minded. If that makes any blittering sence? And im refering to the work of the AWCKRI, not the WCpedia. As they are seperate. The WCpedia may have articles and info from the AWCKRI, but also has info from every branch, and every major and minor researcher around.

Fast lineage chart question for Mui Sifu. I thought his Sigung, was Fung Chun, but recently i have been told that isnt correct, and its Fung Lim. Could you please help clairify this for me?
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Hendrik,

Taking Fung chun's opinion, like taking any inheritor or gatekeeper, that is legitimate and has a verifiable connection to the family/system, is as good as money with gold behind it - we know that the opinion or information is from a sound source and strong referance point and so can be considered serious data to be put into the "referance bank".

That doesnt mean the same face is given to modern internet posters, who have no "Face" - in this day and age anyone can say anything. We could have 10 year kids pretending to be Sifu's or Pioneers. So we all have a right to ask for credentials. If i say "WCKs current punching method is differant to the old method" - people will want to know why i say this and ask me to show them the proof. If im really attempting to help others as they are the same as myself, by empowering them to have a stronger referance point, in how they percieve, practise and preserve their lineage of WCK, i will freely give them the proof and let them decide for themselves.

Also any master, can relate the traditions of the system. That doesnt make them historical correct though. For example in Cho Gar, we now find several differant Oral Traditions, including the Chi Shim , as well as the Miu Shun/Ng Mui stories. The WCKpedia wants to preserve the differant Oral traditions as they are passed down with no value judgment on them.

The AWCKRI is where the research work is done, and the individual oral traditions are not part of the criterion - as the systems and material speaks for itself. We simply have to make sure we are interpreting the systems from a clear referance point.

I dont expect anyone to take our word for it. I expect them to take our work, and check it out for themselves. When we makes a claim, if we wish to be taken serious, we need to share our information publicaly, so it can be independently verified. Anything else is playing games, and part of the problem, not part of the solution. I have to say that the goal of the WCpedia is to be a material resource for our community, for all to do thier own research. And the work of the AWCKRI is putting out the clearest case senario, and than allowing others to independently verify it and come to their own conclusions. If i accomplish this, i will be happy, and hopfully others will take our work, and take it even ****her.

I think we must be honest, about localized evolution, as every single branch has it. I think we also must be very honest with ourselves about our own systems and scrutinize, our own, as much or more than others. Its very easy to point to others and say "thats not correct" or "Thats changed".
Its also important , how the information is presented - i learned this from Rene. There are correct ways of pointing out someones evolution in their system, and wrong ways, that are based on Ego rubbing. Ego has no place in an open heart.

In relation to Lineage Chart. Yes. It needs to be clear, but is very difficult and the hardest task i have tackled yet, in regards to my research. I understand what you mean by the "Dotted" lines and agree what you state is traditional Chinese thought and proper.
But there is alot more to consider also. What if someone is considered a traitor by their Sifu and black balled from the group? Does that mean they are not allowed under them with the "Full Line" in the lineage chart, or doesnt the relationship of the Sifu and student matter, but the fact that the information was transmited? And what if others knowingly change material and try to pass it off as original? Do they and should they remain in proper lineage standings? Also my understanding is casual students are not placed on Lineage Charts. Only Inheritors and Disciples are included. And what if someone of lower rank is accepted by their Sigung, as the Sigungs inheritor? See?? So many things to consider, its almost maddening.

Its insane how much work, must truly be put into Lineage charts, to do them correctly. And they are the source of MOST issues, regarding politics.

Good news about Chu Sifu. That info was released several years ago in a magazine article, where he talks about Cho Gar SLT 36 Gings. He has a unique perspective, due to his wide range study of H.K, YKS, Kulo, and Cho Gar, and along side RR, has paved the way, for others, to do research.

With so many doors in Cho Gar opening, i genuinly hope you, Robert or your sihing, will help give the west, a stronger taste of Cho Hong Choi Sifu's system. This is important, to have a ...well rounded picture, of Cho Gar.

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I want to thank everyone for their feedback and postive attitudes. I have to get to the grind and get ALOT of work done in 2 weeks, so i may be gone for awile. Anyone wishing to contact me, to have articles or information added to the WCpedia, please Email me at
Deadletter6@Yahoo.com

Brian

Shadow_warrior8

05-21-2007, 05:52 PM

Bro,
Your long posts are always exciting with so much info and depth. Appreciate your sharing. You have set out on a daunting task, what we call Ren Shang Ren, Man above man, in faith, patience and heart. Many great generals here, in wingchun have also done much as well so juniors like me, can fantom the depth of wingchun
Chinese say, Ying Sui Si Yuan(in mandarin). Remember the source of your water.
Now that much more info, clarity, direct links are establised, as a mere messenger, my role is done. No matter who says what, or distortions about my intentions, I have done my part to remember the source and honour those who shared their art with me. I am content and at peace with myself. :p :D
My source of inspiration on how to live life in the martial world(for those into HK TVB dramas)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18LzGWL4ZV8
Donnie Yen rocks........

Jim Roselando

05-22-2007, 05:28 AM

Hey Brian,

Thanks for the post.

This system (Lo Kwai) has me thinking also of another question. According to Fung Sang's notes, when Leung Jan was questioned as to the differene between their Ku Lo art and the WC arts outside the village he said:

The Wing Chun outside our village is the Jing Sun system and is taught in 3 parts, SLT/CK/BJ, but in our village it is Pin Sun system and is taught with 1 Set. Both are from the same family and differ very little.

This makes me also go hmmm when I hear someone claiming a one long set from LJ so I always keep my antena up hahaha. Could he have taught someone one long set? Anything is possible! :)

Gotta run guys!

Jim Roselando

05-22-2007, 05:49 AM

B,

Fast lineage chart question for Mui Sifu. I thought his Sigung, was Fung Chun, but recently i have been told that isnt correct, and its Fung Lim. Could you please help clairify this for me?

Mui sifu was trained by Fung Chiu sigung for 7 years. Fung Chun and his nephew Fung Chiu left Ku Lo around the same time and had the same migration route. Both first went to Canton and then to Hong Kong. Mui sifu was also training partner for Fung Chiu's nephew but Fung Chiu's nephew was not very serious about WC where Mui Sifu was and never stopped training.

Here is a funny piece of info.. It was Mui Sifu's school teacher, a pupil of Jiu Wan, who told him that there was an exception master from Leung Jan's home village who just relocated here. His teacher told him: If you can learn a little bit of this mans Kung Fu you will have a lot.

"Fung Lim" is the source of the Yee Sup Yee system. (22 point) Its his public system and the system he taught his Son in Law which is the source of the old Fung's mixed Fujian with WC to create hybrid system rumor. To the best of my knowledge, Fung Lim never taught in Hong Kong. Hong Kong had Fung Chun, Fung Chiu, Fung Sang etc..

Most of the Fung family trained with many of their uncles and cousins and brothers etc. so they can be found in numerous lineages but all mainly had a coach. Fung Chiu was mainly taught by his Uncle Fung Chun. Mui sifu never spoke much about his art or lineage. Some used to think he was taught by Fung Sang which isn't the case. This would make Fung Lim one of his Sigung but he did not train with him. Fung Sang's half brother lives in Boston. Nice guy but very private. They all know each other.

I wrote an article for IKF on Mui Sifu's training and stories of his outstanding sifu. From Mr Mui's public school only one person I have had contact with new anything about his art/background and that was Steven Warshaw. His first public non-chinese student. Steven spoke Chinese so that gave him different level of conversation but I have Steven e-mails telling just how tight lip'd Mr Mui was and is. Hope this helps.

:)

Vajramusti

05-22-2007, 06:20 AM

Sorry to hear of the funeral.Please accept my condolences.

joy chaudhuri

PS. An important thing in disciplined writing IMHO is to acknowledge sources of information... so that readers can judge how much weight to give the evidence.

Jim Roselando

05-22-2007, 06:22 AM

SLT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6dNihA1aCY&mode=related&search=

CK:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEy5Ur93RBc&mode=related&search=

Hendrik

05-22-2007, 07:17 AM

These thoughts comes to me this mortning,

Something I would have to think hard and learn.

Who has more ego?

people like Wang Xiang-Zai who tell the truth straight in other's face and not willing to compromise and negotiate to give face.

people who has no idea what is going on but keep writing like pro or pioneer , while confronted , will accuse others as EGO?

people who has no insight or nothing to do with the inner cycle into a family/lineage making up lineage chart...etc which brought more distortion?

people who purposely write/censor/ degrade a certain things because one likes or dislike a certain person.

how deep do we willing to face these above stuffs within ourself.

This world is too complicated.

I rather go and listern to the 5th of bethorven, and let the world has its own symphony.

Could one resonance naturally with the 5th? if not, then what matters? nothing. what to write if one has not even enter the door?

For the Yik Kam lineage, It is the realization or attainment of the Rythm, resonance, vibes, nature makes the 5th the 5th and the difference. There rest, older, original..... doesnt matter. Could one passed the 5th, if not it doesnt matter if it is 1850 or 2050. one simply doesnt know.

just ask the magic question, could you describe the uniqueness to the specific of your lineage? could you demonstrate what is it? such as the inch power...etc? if not, then, it is chinese said, dicussing the Taiji Classical writing as literature subject ---- off the mark. so how could one able to get into the subject? Cant, lets face it.

just some thought on the subject of older branch of WCK, position, title......

were are we? what are we doing? time to meditate.

Hendrik

05-22-2007, 10:38 AM

i genuinly hope you, Robert or your sihing, will help give the west, a stronger taste of Cho Hong Choi Sifu's system. This is important, to have a ...well rounded picture, of Cho Gar.

Brian

Thanks,

We do Yik Kam lineage. Robert, me , sifu Jim Roselando and others in the west half of the world also have Yik Kam's 5th stanza transmission.

It is not about round picture it is about an indepth investigation of what Yik Kam teaching is and unnegotiable.

byond1

05-22-2007, 06:36 PM

Hi Jim

Thanks for your very detailed - specific information. I will make sure the info in the Pedia abides by what you stated!~

When you mentioned Fung Sangs "The Wing Chun outside our village is the Jing Sun system and is taught in 3 parts, SLT/CK/BJ, but in our village it is Pin Sun system and is taught with 1 Set. Both are from the same family and differ very little" - I must say - i have never bought it, as being an authentic quote.

But lets say it is. The Lo Kwai family preserve that Leung Jan first learned on the Red Boats. Just before the Tai Ping, he left, and took over his fathers shop, and began teaching. Lo Kwai was a very early student. During the Opera Ban, WWB and LYT retired to the Local area. LYT died after awhile. WWB and LJ continued training together until WWB joined the 8 Harmonies Union. At this time, WWB and LJ together created the modern structure of WCK. They broke down the Single form into what the 3 forms+ jong and weapons. During the time WWB was in the 8 Harmonies union, is when i place Fok Bo Chuen learning from him. So it was at that time, he learned the 3 Hand forms. So if LJ made referance to the 3 hand forms, it could have been from the referance point of the end product passed on.

But, why dont i think its authentic (Fung Sangs Quote)?? Because most major branchs of Mainland WCK that trace themselves to the Opera Boats, all preserve WCK was 1 single form originaly. And the systems that preserve this tradition also preserve the older methods, including the older punching method. I cant go into details currently. But Lo Kwai family has been timestamped based on the system, Not oral tradition. Just as we can timestamp Cheung Way Boes SLT, based on his system not his Oral tradition of Chi Shim and Shaolin.

Thanks for the conversation!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joy and Shadow -

Thanks both of you. This will be my last post for a bit, as i have alot to do. But encouragment means alot, so thanks for your time in posting positive things.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik -

When you say "It is not about round picture it is about an indepth investigation of what Yik Kam teaching is and unnegotiable" - You mean from your perspective. My perspective isnt from a Cho Family member. Its from a general Community standpoint. So it is, in my work, about a well rounded picture. Let others better suited work on Indepth for Cho Gar. Cheung Way Boe and Ku Choi Wah are going to do great things in the future, in sharing, the Cho Gar tradition.

Half the world has things posted online, with nothing to validate the material. If someone from say the Leung Chun lineage stated they had the private journal of Leung Jan. Wouldnt let anyone but a few "Friends" see it. Nor provide photos or scans for the hand writting/Journal to be analysed and translated, nor even allow the journal to be authenticated and time stamped by an actualy historian , who in their right mind would believe them? To make matters worse, 2 or 3 differant branchs of Leung Chun lineage come out and state they have the Journal as well, they provide the journal, all 2 or 3 branchs preserve the exact same material, and it has nothing like what the first branch said it was? What does probability dictate? As i say Sihing, my grandmothers kuen kuit "The proof is in the Pudding"
- Good luck with your work.

Brian

Hendrik

05-23-2007, 12:24 AM

Cheung Way Boe and Ku Choi Wah are going to do great things in the future, in sharing, the Cho Gar tradition. ------B

Ku and Cheung sifus have done great things in the past, present, and certainly in the future for continously sharing their knowledge.

If someone from say the Leung Chun lineage stated they had the private journal of Leung Jan. Wouldnt let anyone but a few "Friends" see it. Nor provide photos or scans for the hand writting/Journal to be analysed and translated, nor even allow the journal to be authenticated and time stamped by an actualy historian , who in their right mind would believe them? To make matters worse, 2 or 3 differant branchs of Leung Chun lineage come out and state they have the Journal as well, they provide the journal, all 2 or 3 branchs preserve the exact same material, and it has nothing like what the first branch said it was? What does probability dictate? As i say Sihing, my grandmothers kuen kuit "The proof is in the Pudding"------ B

You and I see things differently.

Let me share with the public my view.

Raise up in traditional Chinese, the following will be what I am following.

1, if I know such a person from Beethoven lineage, I will certainly guard myself to discredit him/her because I am not belongs to the few "friends" who s/he trust.

Jealousy is what I would guard myself from.

2, If I know such a person from Beethoven lineage, I will practice Drinking the water and respect the source, instead of in one way using his information and on the other hand trying to discredit him to gain control because I want to be a pioneer in the field I have no idea what so ever.

Unjust to others is what I would guard myself from.

3, if I know such a person from Beethoven lineage, I will ask politely so that he teaches me the 5th symphony instead of bad mouth and doing everything I can to smear him just because he wont endose me. and just because I lost face because I put myself as a pioneer but I actually have no clue even to discuss the very basic. For he knows, I have no idea on how to play piano.

Dont know what I dont know ; and Dont know my position on what I can or cannot speak for, is what I would guard myself from

4, If I know such a person from Beethoven lineage, I will respect him for non negotiate on his family art and choose who to share and who not to because without NON negotiate on the art and keep the art alive within a few who is capable, the Standard of the art degrade and that is destroying the art.

not Standing up for what is right selling my soul for my fame and vanity is what I would guard myself from.

It takes gut to stand up for the truth. It takes decades and decades to cultivate an art.

that is the path instead of calling this person sigung that person sijo when one wanting thier information to boost oneself's position ; and then turn around to discount them when one doesnt get thier endosement.

See, Truth and ART is about attainment not about clever arguement, one could win the arguement but if there is not attainment. what's left? Nothing but words.

- Good luck with your work.----B

Thanks.

I certainly have very Good luck to meet Rene who help to keep the record of Yik Kam lineage and my communication evidents to SEA Cho family senior on record.

I certainly have very Good luck to meet my brother Robert Chu who protect the art of Yik Kam.

I certainly have very Good luck to meet Jim Roselando who is sincere and make special trips for past two years to the west coast from the boston to learn the heart method of Yik Kam, the snake, the 5th, no matter how much Craps I purposely give him and put him down to see if he is the right person who really love the art.

I certainly have very good luck that you place my past information in your excellent website so that the future generation could track the Yik Kam teaching. Thank you.

Looking back I thank God's , Yik Kam's and Cho ancestors' help.

Without Rene and Robert's help the name of Cho Gar and the Yik kam lineage would not be known as today but NanYang WCK as in the Complete WC. For they are the one who suggest the names for sake of preserving the art after they have a through study of the issue after the Complete WCK is published.

As a messenger,

The next phase messege is, Yik kam and Cho family decendent must not compromise to lower the barr or standard of the ancestors. As I mention in my post before, it is ok for us to say we dont know for now and still have time to restore the core key. We all need the 5th to turn on the engine. one must not destroy the high standard of Yik Kam and Cho Dak-Shing via sloppiness and low standard.

If the 5th is gone, if the snake or the energize water sleeve is gone, if the close body reel is gone. then we no longer have the art. However, there is another thing which is more precious then the art, that is humanity and setting one and other free with love. Our ancestor's name Cho Dak-Shing means Winning with Dak or virture. Dak-Shing means Winning with high skill standard and humanity.

so, see how lucky I am chatting with you, God give me a chance to post this in the web. and at least if I die tonight and see Yik Kam or Cho ancestors on the other side, I would look at them in thier eyes, and says " WITH EVERYONE"S HELP, I complete my job."

Dont you think there is a lots of luck? to get to where I am tonight? Thank you.

Best Regards

Jim Roselando

05-23-2007, 06:08 AM

Hey Brian,

Hi Jim

Thanks for your very detailed - specific information. I will make sure the info in the Pedia abides by what you stated!~

:) JR

When you mentioned Fung Sangs "The Wing Chun outside our village is the Jing Sun system and is taught in 3 parts, SLT/CK/BJ, but in our village it is Pin Sun system and is taught with 1 Set. Both are from the same family and differ very little" - I must say - i have never bought it, as being an authentic quote.

I appreciate your thoughts but it happened to be published in Chinese Magazine in the 70's and Fung Sang always was one of the more open PSWC sifu's. The family gave him a hard time in the old days for being so open I am told. Fung Sang was interviewed by a reporter and the interview was published. JR

But lets say it is. The Lo Kwai family preserve that Leung Jan first learned on the Red Boats. Just before the Tai Ping, he left, and took over his fathers shop, and began teaching. Lo Kwai was a very early student. During the Opera Ban, WWB and LYT retired to the Local area. LYT died after awhile. WWB and LJ continued training together until WWB joined the 8 Harmonies Union. At this time, WWB and LJ together created the modern structure of WCK. They broke down the Single form into what the 3 forms+ jong and weapons. During the time WWB was in the 8 Harmonies union, is when i place Fok Bo Chuen learning from him. So it was at that time, he learned the 3 Hand forms. So if LJ made referance to the 3 hand forms, it could have been from the referance point of the end product passed on.

Possible. I need to check timeline/dates. Some claim Leung Jan was the founder of the 3 Fist sets. There is a contradiction in theories even coming out of the village (actually many stories these days 12/22/40 so take them all with a grain of salt) but this is different from what Fung sifu claims to be Leung's transmission during question/answer time with the master. JR

But, why dont i think its authentic (Fung Sangs Quote)?? Because most major branchs of Mainland WCK that trace themselves to the Opera Boats, all preserve WCK was 1 single form originaly. And the systems that preserve this tradition also preserve the older methods, including the older punching method. I cant go into details currently. But Lo Kwai family has been timestamped based on the system, Not oral tradition. Just as we can timestamp Cheung Way Boes SLT, based on his system not his Oral tradition of Chi Shim and Shaolin.

This does not mean they dont say it was originally all one BTW! They actually write that in the article hahaha! See if one of your friends in the village can send you the Published Interview. It was Fung Sang Sifu who was interviewed and Fung Sang's half brother, Fung Ming, thanked me for giving him a copy of his brothers interview that he has not seen in many years a while back. If his brother acknowledges its authenticity then thats good enough for me! :) IMO, its one of the few authentic articles ever published on Ku Lo family art. Fung Sang was BIG TIME researcher of Leung Jan art. Every family has one or two that really get into the history/system and this man was a fanatic for preserving info. on his families art/Leung Jan in general. JR

Thanks for the conversation!

:cool:

Hendrik

05-23-2007, 10:44 AM

Hey Brian,

This does not mean they dont say it was originally all one BTW! They actually write that in the article hahaha! See if one of your friends in the village can send you the Published Interview. It was Fung Sang Sifu who was interviewed and Fung Sang's half brother, Fung Ming, thanked me for giving him a copy of his brothers interview that he has not seen in many years a while back. If his brother acknowledges its authenticity then thats good enough for me! :) IMO, its one of the few authentic articles ever published on Ku Lo family art. Fung Sang was BIG TIME researcher of Leung Jan art. Every family has one or two that really get into the history/system and this man was a fanatic for preserving info. on his families art/Leung Jan in general. JR

:cool:

IMHO, the bottom line is
One needs the insight of the power generation, uniqueness to understand what is going on.

if one is not from the decendent of the lineage and having and capable to show the real deal or uniqueness of the transmission. One is only in the position of learning certainly not in the position of judging.

Dont believe me?

my usual test :

for the lineage on is presenting,
explain what is Short Jing? how to do it in detail, what is the uniqueness, how is the scientific reason that it is accord to the Newton's law? could one synthesis it ? where is it in the older set, younger set, original set of SLT? if one cant identify that, then what is the older, the younger, the original .....set of SLT good for? mimic the posture is not going to yield the art. That is forsure.

otherwise, we could spin our brian on the subject and have all the theories but at the end of the day, nothing works well.

Brain, what do you think?

it will be great if your website could added a section of the test above. so that one could discriminate between what is real transmission and speculation naturally.

That will make your website a high quality one and no one need to play police but let the inheritance art speak for itself automatically. Those who have the art thus could share as much and those pretender cant get in to distort the art with clever conversation or make believe pioneering.

my two cents.

byond1

05-24-2007, 06:59 PM

Jim -

Great food for thought and thanks for sharing. I will keep an open mind. When you say "This does not mean they dont say it was originally all one BTW!" I agree completly, thats what i meant when i said "So if LJ made referance to the 3 hand forms, it could have been from the referance point of the end product passed on." - Guess I worded it in an ..unclear way.

Yes, you did mention Fung Sang had the WCKBug!!~

I recently received a very old article on Kulo, from NMH, but havnt translated it yet. It appears to have Kuen Kuit listed, but dont hold me on that, as perhaps its simply a listing of San Sik, as I thought I saw something written about "Siu Lien Tau".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hendrik-

.0) In general - I would guard against those that take an open heart innocence, and than use that to strike them and manipulate reality to become something, they can champion against. I would also guard against the judges and jury, that attempt to appear so wise, they can judge and jury others, without even actually seeing or meeting that which they seek to judge and jury, nor allow themselves to be subjected to the same judging that they seek to due to others.

I would also guard against the Beethoven lineage Falsifying who and what they are by making sure they "proved there pudding" to you.

1)"Jealousy is what I would guard myself from" HS

- I think its best to be happy with what you have. Many in America tend to look at what others have instead of focusing on what they have or what they are doing.

I would guard myself against "wolf in sheeps clothing". Those that pretend sincerity, but really are skilled at "Knives in the back" Faat, or only seek to advance themselves instead of communal advancement.- B

2) ""If I know such a person from Beethoven lineage, I will practice Drinking the water and respect the source, instead of in one way using his information and on the other hand trying to discredit him to gain control because I want to be a pioneer in the field I have no idea what so ever."" HS

Yes i agree whole heartedly~IF one could find a ~Authentic~ Beethoven lineage- And they proved it via Realtime interaction, many would drink the water with respect and ~DO~!! . The same isnt given to con men, ethnocentric racists, or internet warriors. Im sure you understand.
I would guard myself against being trapped in Dualistic thought and paranoia
and illusions of grandur

I would also again suggest the Beethoven Lineage would need to show the "Proof of their pudding" - and I would also suggest that anyone seeing that type of complicated darkness in others, should work on overcoming the ego that needs to feel like a champion and a victim, at the same time.- B

3) ""3, if I know such a person from Beethoven lineage, I will ask politely so that he teaches me the 5th symphony instead of bad mouth and doing everything I can to smear him just because he wont endose me. and just because I lost face because I put myself as a pioneer but I actually have no clue even to discuss the very basic. For he knows, I have no idea on how to play piano. "" HS

I would guard against elitism, superiority complex, and "Making checks one cant cash" as well as avoiding illusions of grandur.
If i actually found what i thought initialy to be an authentic branch of Beethoven Lineage, it would be easy to validate. "The proof is in the pudding" or as they say in America "Put up or shut up". If the Beethoven branch refused to actualy play for anyone, or be recorded for others to scrutinize, yet they put out alot of propaganda on other musicians and their lack of skill, and what was "true" music or authentic music, (As if that actually exists), we would know them for what they were. And than, wouldnt have to waste time.

IMO Sihing, and this is only from my perspective, you only know if someone knows how to "Play" their instrument, if they have the salt and minerals, to "Play". Im a musician and have experianced the same things, as I do in the WCK world, in the music world. Anyone can say anything online. Fine. Lets meet. The truth will be sorted out, one way or another. Prove they can play the 5th backwords or whatever claim they make. But I would be very ignorant if I judged the Beethoven lineage or anything in life, if i actually didnt experiance it.

I think one of the problems in America, is people need others approval or endorsement. Its best to endorse oneself, by your achiements and your love that you give to whatever you do, in life. Hopefully this can impart that to others in our community, as true strength "Is internal". We wont even touch upon the poor souls, who think others need their endorsement - B

4) "4, If I know such a person from Beethoven lineage, I will respect him for non negotiate on his family art and choose who to share and who not to because without NON negotiate on the art and keep the art alive within a few who is capable, the Standard of the art degrade and that is destroying the art."" HS -

Here we are in complete accord - but i would add also, being "very vigilant" on weeding out the Fake Beethoven lineages from the Authentic Beethoven Lineages.- as well as, I would also be carefull of internet warriors/musicians, who wouldnt actually show the "Proof of there pudding" - B

5)"See, Truth and ART is about attainment not about clever arguement, one could win the arguement but if there is not attainment. what's left? Nothing but words"

Here again !! We are in complete accord. Thats why the "Proof/Truth is in the pudding" - So those that have attainment have something that is repeatable and verifiable. So its not about arguement. Its about "Lets face the truth together whatever it may be" and "Lets show the proof of our pudding" - B

6)"Our ancestor's name Cho Dak-Shing means Winning with Dak or virture. Dak-Shing means Winning with high skill standard and humanity."

Thats really a beautiful translation - B

7)" Dont you think there is a lots of luck?" HS -

Actualy no, Sihing. I dont believe in luck. Its just an expression, wishing someone else the best. I actualy believe in action, non action and karma. - B

8) "if one is not from the decendent of the lineage and having and capable to show the real deal or uniqueness of the transmission. One is only in the position of learning certainly not in the position of judging." HS

YES - Exaclty!! If one is capable of "Show the real deal" - Than they have to "show" it - By "Showing it" it implies a "doer" and "perciever".
I would think Sihing, only a very very few, are in a position to judge. Anyone else is only in a position of learning. Those that are in positions to judge, for sure are not found on the internet. Grandmasters like Fung Chun are from a differant world. And even the next generation down, is very removed from "this" world, of illusion and internet.-B

9) "otherwise, we could spin our brian on the subject and have all the theories but at the end of the day, nothing works well.""

Facinating!!~ You must have BRIAN on the BRAIN. lOl. - B

10) Brain, what do you think?

Thanks for the compliment - but its not needed. Im more than happy to include your work, Ku Choi Wahs work, and other branchs of Cho Gar in the WCpedia. Currently im working on the Cho Gar lineage chart, and have reached some very difficult parts. Im not sure what direction to go in 4 or 5 differant situations, but will do my best to represent the truth, even if that truth bothers people. If you wish to share your opinion on who the Cho lineage chart should be, I would be more than happy to work it in. - B

11) "it will be great if your website could added a section of the test above. so that one could discriminate between what is real transmission and speculation naturally"

If you wish to create the "Hendrik Santo WCK authentication test" which would judge other WCK branchs to your personal WCK- I would be more than happy to put it up for you, or anything else you write for that matter.

I cant keep up my current pace, so something has to give, and that will be posting. Any further feedback from anyone can be directed to
deadletter6@yahoo.com - i wish the best for everyone, and I will let everyone know of any updates.

sincerly

Brian

Jim Roselando

05-25-2007, 08:08 AM

B wrote:

Jim -

Great food for thought and thanks for sharing. I will keep an open mind. When you say "This does not mean they dont say it was originally all one BTW!" I agree completly, thats what i meant when i said "So if LJ made referance to the 3 hand forms, it could have been from the referance point of the end product passed on." - Guess I worded it in an ..unclear way.

Yes, you did mention Fung Sang had the WCKBug!!~

I recently received a very old article on Kulo, from NMH, but havnt translated it yet. It appears to have Kuen Kuit listed, but dont hold me on that, as perhaps its simply a listing of San Sik, as I thought I saw something written about "Siu Lien Tau".

Cool. If the poem mentions:

Siu Lin Tau & Dai Lin Tau
Practice them often it will change you!

Then that could be one of the articles. It does have some oral accounts/advice from LJ and other intersting stuff Fung SiSuk talks about.

Have a good one!

Hendrik

05-25-2007, 05:58 PM

8) "if one is not from the decendent of the lineage and having and capable to show the real deal or uniqueness of the transmission. One is only in the position of learning certainly not in the position of judging." HS

YES - Exaclty!! If one is capable of "Show the real deal" - Than they have to "show" it - By "Showing it" it implies a "doer" and "perciever".

I would think Sihing, only a very very few, are in a position to judge. Anyone else is only in a position of learning. Those that are in positions to judge, for sure are not found on the internet. Grandmasters like Fung Chun are from a differant world. And even the next generation down, is very removed from "this" world, of illusion and internet.-B

Thus, I propose to use EEG and HRV as a part of measurement.

That way we could based things on solid ground instead of stories.

Jim and his friends are buying the EEG machines.
So, Illusion or facts, hook one up and let the machine do the rest of the job.

10) Brian, what do you think?

Thanks for the compliment - but its not needed. Im more than happy to include your work, Ku Choi Wahs work, and other branchs of Cho Gar in the WCpedia. -B

Thank you

However,
Dont take my work or my words for it.

and infact, I will be even more happy if you take all information based on me out. I love to share but I dont like to be in any famous site.

I propose to Jim, :D
Take Jim's EEG, HRV and power generation and data log it . or take Jim's student's EEG... and data log it.

so that other researchers will know what is going on not based on me but based on the Technology of Yik Kam.

Currently im working on the Cho Gar lineage chart, and have reached some very difficult parts. Im not sure what direction to go in 4 or 5 differant situations, but will do my best to represent the truth, even if that truth bothers people. If you wish to share your opinion on who the Cho lineage chart should be, I would be more than happy to work it in. - B

Mine is "opinion" and your's is "represent the truth" . you must have endosement from Yik Kam himself. :D

Thank you for your offer my sigung and sifu had done all the work for me, I just follow them
.

If I were you, I would stay 100 miles away from it because I am not in the position to even have opinion about a subject Cho On, Cho Hong-Choy, and Sam Chan has settled it some 40 years ago in Penang, Malaysia.

thus, is there any needs to over write those GM's? who else closer to the core of the family and the art then them ?

As a descendent of Yi Kam via Cho Hong-Choy, I simply Follow the blood line and technology. Life is simple that way.

lately, I have already recieved complain from SE Asia about some website is posting distorted title in the lineage that get them into trouble with thier sifu. I certainly dont want to be a part of those type of stuffs.

11) "it will be great if your website could added a section of the test above. so that one could discriminate between what is real transmission and speculation naturally"

If you wish to create the "Hendrik Santo WCK authentication test" which would judge other WCK branchs to your personal WCK- I would be more than happy to put it up for you, or anything else you write for that matter. -----B

Why dont we called it Brian WCK authentication test instead of Hendrik Santo WCK authentication test?

since it is your website and you are the one who do research and judgement " to represent the truth, even if that truth bothers people." as you said, I am not into those.

Best Regards

byond1

05-26-2007, 02:15 PM

Hi Hendrik!!

"Thus, I propose to use EEG and HRV as a part of measurement.
That way we could based things on solid ground instead of stories.
Jim and his friends are buying the EEG machines.
So, Illusion or facts, hook one up and let the machine do the rest of the job.""-HS

This only proves certain aspects of ones training, not if a - swimmer, knows how to swim, but to if they can get into the Zone. So again - "The proof is in the pudding" - My grandmother was very wise. 7th daughter of a 7th daughter. I was transmited a very long Kuen Po. Very beautiful and rich with Polish ethnic diversity and color. I also have the set written, in the original Polish/English hybred, customary of imigrants in those days. Perhaps one day, we can reflect on its wisdom together.

""I love to share but I dont like to be in any famous site.""HS

Please, no endorcements. I wish our work to stand on its own to legs. The truth doesnt need supporters, it simply is and we are doing our best to remain neutral. And the site is far from famous, it hasnt even debuted yet!!. RR has the real site, that has spent years and years, bringing the public invaluable information. Ours is just a baby, as far as im concerned and wouldnt exist, if numerous members of our community hadnt stood up and offered to partisipate. The thanks and credit goes to them, and the ancestors.

""so that other researchers will know what is going on not based on me but based on the Technology of Yik Kam." - HS

Interesting. So i guess its a good thing that we now have Cho Gar and Yik Kam lineage. Preserving both great traditions.

""If I were you, I would stay 100 miles away from it because I am not in the position to even have opinion about a subject Cho On, Cho Hong-Choy, and Sam Chan has settled it some 40 years ago in Penang, Malaysia."" -HS

Yes, perhaps you are right. In fact 100 miles may not be far enough. LOL
I did hear about what happend many years ago in Penang.It was a shame, Sifu and Cho On Sigung had issues. Thats why we have...treaded carfully,as to respect those that are gone, we dont want to stir up any dust, but represent the truth.

"you must have endosement from Yik Kam himself."" - HS

Im far simpler than you Hendrik. I dont need any ones endorsement. My love endorses what I do. :)
We do have the opinions and general traditions, from 3 major Cho Gar branchs and Poon Yu Village.
They dont preserve a "Yik Kam" lineage. That disrespects all the generations of Cho Gar. They preserve 'Cho Gar', which WCK is only part of the overall family system.

"who else closer to the core of the family and the art then them ? "

Hmmmm. Poon Yu and Cho Chuen??

""lately, I have already recieved complain from SE Asia about some website is posting distorted title in the lineage that get them into trouble with thier sifu. I certainly dont want to be a part of those type of stuffs.""HS

Thats true. We to have recieved numerous emails from SE Asian detailing a false represenitive of Cho Gar. Evidently he has attempted to confuse many people, for a very long time.

""Why dont we called it Brian WCK authentication test instead of Hendrik Santo WCK authentication test?
since it is your website and you are the one who do research and judgement " to represent the truth, even if that truth bothers people." as you said, I am not into those." HS

No need Sihing. Im not the one challenging every single master in my lineage, by publicaly telling everyone they dont perform basicaly every part of their lineage correctly. Im very simple - I love WCK.

The truth I refered to was the truth about the lineage chart. That makes many people loose face. As I said, we are at a point, where we have to work through some negativity that has been burried for a very long time. We are trying to respect those that have already passed on, but also need to not compromise the truth.

brian

VingDragon

05-26-2007, 03:48 PM

Hendrik

05-26-2007, 06:02 PM

The truth I refered to was the truth about the lineage chart. That makes many people loose face. As I said, we are at a point, where we have to work through some negativity that has been burried for a very long time.

We are trying to respect those that have already passed on, but also need to not compromise the truth.

brian

Brian,

Excellent!

You have your truth, I accept and respect.

Everyone has thier view and I respect that.

The following is my view,
since you are a WCK scholar, I assume you respect my request.

Here is my public address for you and the WCners.

Here I request respectfully for Brian to take out all the informations I have posts in the past which Brian has used in his research and his site.

Yes, I have allowed Brian to use my information before.

However, after I have learn more about the project, I found out that it is not suitable for me.
Thus, I decide to reserve and not to share my information for now.

Best Wishes for the project. Brian, appreciate for you help to delete all informations related to me.

With Respect

Hendrik

To all WCners,

As a decendent of Yik Kam and Cho family, in chinese trandition, there are things I am not suppose to do, would not do, would not taking part, and would not endose to do.

That is due to I am not in the position and could not responsible for the impact.

Thus, I hope fellow WCners understand my decision to withdraw my information.

on the following issue,

""If I were you, I would stay 100 miles away from it because I am not in the position to even have opinion about a subject Cho On, Cho Hong-Choy, and Sam Chan has settled it some 40 years ago in Penang, Malaysia."" -HS

Yes, perhaps you are right. In fact 100 miles may not be far enough. LOL
I did hear about what happend many years ago in Penang.It was a shame, Sifu and Cho On Sigung had issues. Thats why we have...treaded carfully,as to respect those that are gone, we dont want to stir up any dust, but represent the truth.-------Brian

As a Grand disciple of Gm Cho On, disciple of GM Cho Hong-Choy, and Sidai of Ah Chay and Ah Peng, I must report the following FACT to the WC world, otherwise, I owe it to my Sigung, Sifu, and Sihengs.

The fact is :

In the mid 70's when my two sihengs, Ah Chay and Ah Peng were preparing to compete in Loi Toi, my sigung Cho On showed up at my sifu's home, my Sigung spend time personally taugh my sihengs how to fight and said " our WCK's uniqueness is Huen Kaam Tiu Tap......."

Both my sihengs still live in Ayer Itam, PG. This can be varified easily.

What respect is there? what truth is there when Fact are not presented and let those GMs who had passed away to not rest in peace ?

That is beyond me, Thus, I let Go and Let God on this matter.

This will be my last post for this matter on this post.

Best Regards

Hendrik

05-26-2007, 07:04 PM

above posts remind me a little situation from our Weng Chun community:

there are 3 different Shaolin Weng Chun families: Lo, Tang and Chu. Each represents different forms and techniques of the same style and from the same roots! all of them are Shaolin however it doesnt mean the one is the best or keep the truth.

during the years they did share their knowledge and friendship at Dai Duk Lan but beside that, they also teached their private students at home so some of the movements interpreted differ from what others do.

As you see, everyone, even from the same Sifu, after many years, modify some movements to interpret his/her own spell of the form.

I agree.

all these TRUTH stuffs remind me about what we could learn from the Chinese History So that we all could be better.--- The Chinese Culture Revolution.

where at that time, for most young people, there is only one Truth --- that is to be righteous and to get rid of the "old Ghost" culture, which is bad and wrong for China.

and after the young satisfied thier righteous victory and thier "high" of humiliating or killing thier High School teachers, thier parents, thier university proffesors...destroying thier ancestors teaching....ect,

what was found is there is only one TRUTH. and That is the TRUTH according to Mao Tze-Dong's desire of destroying his political enermy and grasp power without give a damm about the people and thier long term casualty.

the country's economy was turn back ward for decades and massive "old Ghost" or jewels of China which has been destroyed, and could never recovered-- destroyed in the name of Truth.

That is painfull. and I hope we could learn from that.

What is Truth? IMHO, that is not important, It is trying to safe as much core as possible is the key. My chinese proffessor told me once, keep whatever, every thing you have , even you cannot understand them, otherwise, when you need them you no longer have them.

WCK for me is about Energy handling.

one needs to raise from the physical, to breathing, to mental, to awareness make the best and natural used of the nature's resonance into the power generation.

I would not believe mimic-ing some posture or doing some set will be able to resist the wrestle, the BJJ, the Kyokushin, or the Mua Thai, or any strong style to come.

IMHO, the measure of knowing the art is not in the form but in the power generation handling; and even that is master, doesnt guareentee one is a great fighter. not to mention if one doesnt have it.

What is the truth?

I leave it to God. Let Go and Let God. otherwise, it becomes an ego fight.

Just some thoughts.

ChangHFY

05-26-2007, 07:17 PM

Hey Kal,

You should also look into the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen system.
Which its oral history dates it back directly to the Southern Shaolin Temple. Its lineage dates back to the late 1600's.

Check these links out for info on the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen.

http://www.hungfakwoon.com/mainhfy.htm
www.vtmuseum.org (this website also has info on Hung Fa Yi)

take care,
Zach

Ultimatewingchun

05-26-2007, 07:44 PM

But it's history can't be independently verified.

ChangHFY

05-27-2007, 08:15 PM

t_niehoff

05-27-2007, 08:59 PM

No offense Victor laoshi,

But hundreds of Chinese Martial Arts systems cant be independently verified.

There is no proof that Wong Long existed so does this mean Praying Mantis is not real or a hoax or etc...

The Mizong system is still unsure how it was even created. And some accounts dont even list Huo Yuan Jia as the founder.

Can Ng Mui, Yim Wing Chun be verified? Does this mean what your studying is not Wing Chun?

You are correct -- most TCMAs's histories cannot be indpendently verified. This does not mean, however, that we should accept those histories as true. We should only accept those things as true which have been proved true, with indpendently verifiable evidence. Things that cannot be proved true with independently verifiable evidece we just say are unproven.

WCK, like Praying Mantis, is a real martial art, but that does not mean that their respective oral histories are true.

Most records were kept via oral communication.

Actually, there are numerous written records kept by religious, social, and governmental authorities (most of which don't support the "histories" of the TCMAs).

The problem with oral histories of martial arts is that they can easily be false (or falsified).

So my point is you single out one system among hundreds and for what reason?

take care,
Zach

I can't read Victor's mind, but for me, *any* claim of WCK history that cannot be independently verified I take as either legend (typically allegory) or marketing or both.

Two TMA history articles worth reading IMO that sum it up:

http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/china_review_international/v006/6.2henning.pdf

http://seinenkai.com/articles/henning/politicallycorrect.pdf

anerlich

05-27-2007, 11:14 PM

So my point is you single out one system among hundreds and for what reason?

Taking a wild guess, I'd say he singled it out because you mentioned it in a post just before.

You're right that that for many systems the historical claims are unverified, often unverifiable, and occasionally fanciful. Those that make claims to the contrary, or of unusual purity, completeness, age, or special status, invite challenge.

Ultimatewingchun

05-28-2007, 02:11 PM

ChangHFY

05-28-2007, 02:34 PM

Thanks for the replies,

Actually I agree with most of your statements Terrence.

Anerlich and Victor,

No offense but the same can be said about TWC wheres the idependently verifiable evidence that G.M. Ip Man even taught G.M. Cheung this system?

Although I have great respect for G.M. Cheung and his awesome TWC.

When you point fingers at other systems generally they will be pointed back at yours.

What difference does it make how much or little history was mentioned, considering you werent even at the Seni. (so why are you complaining?)

Again I have a lot of respect for you Victor as a laoshi and a martial artist so theres no disrespect meant.

take care,
Zach

anerlich

05-28-2007, 03:47 PM

Thanks for the replies,

Anerlich and Victor,

No offense but the same can be said about TWC wheres the idependently verifiable evidence that G.M. Ip Man even taught G.M. Cheung this system?

I don't believe the TWC party line. Never have. To me historical veracity is insignificant compared to present effectiveness, and I enjoy needling those who suggest that the one necessarily has much to do with the other. I'm a bad person. Sue me.

Although I have great respect for G.M. Cheung and his awesome TWC.

Yeah, right. Whatever.

When you point fingers at other systems generally they will be pointed back at yours.

Whatever floats your boat. Point away. Go wild. It's been happening for 20 years, I doubt you have a new angle.

What difference does it make how much or little history was mentioned, considering you werent even at the Seni. (so why are you complaining?)

I'm not complaining. WTF has the Seni got to do with anything?

Again I have a lot of respect for you Victor as a laoshi and a martial artist so theres no disrespect meant.

I respect Vic's opinion as well, so I backed him up, even though I don't know or care what a laoshi is.

take care,
Zach

I will. Suggest you do the same, Zach.

JPinAZ

05-28-2007, 03:54 PM

Anerlich has hit my point on the head...I'm not doubting the existence of HFY per se as a legitimate style of wing chun - I'm just tired of HFY people constantly pointing people to it's "history" over and over again when NONE of it can be verified.

So when I read that there was a 2-hour seminar in Britain wherein all that was shown was the first section of SLT and a little dan chi sao - but lots of time spent talking about HFY theory and HISTORY...I've got to scratch my head and wonder!

A little less theory and a lot less unverifiable history - coupled with twice as much actual SHOWING of what HFY looks like in action would go a long way - let me tell ya'.

SEEING IS BELIEVING.

Victor,

This is the second time you speak of a 2-hour seminar in UK that you were not at, try to make it into nothing, yet you have no idea what you are even talking about - You weren't even there!
Being one of the 'HFY people' you talk about, I DO have experience with the WC Formula as leaned in HFY (something that WAS covered in UK, was mentioned in the pther thread, and something you fail to mention in your post that attempts to belittle the system). The formula, which is the key to HFY's structure, gate theories, CL theory, 2-line concept, etc, etc. carries a lot of information with it. This one short 'form' could be discussed for a week, and still not cover everything. Can you give all the details in your system in 2 hours??

Maybe it would be best to have been present at something before you speak about it? Or even have experienced 1 day's worth of time in the system you try to talk down about. Or do you not believe in experiencing things for yourself before judging? NM, I think I already know the answer :rolleyes:

Like you said: "SEEING IS BELIEVING" - regarding HFY WC, what have you really SEEN, besides some pictures in a book? Basically, to me it seems you're just trolling...

RE History: People will believe/disbelieve what they want, even if the proof is right there in front of them, or there is no solid proof. Not everyone will believe what they are told, nor what is there in plain sight. That's life - but really, who cares? I don't believe WC was developed and developed and taught by some obscure woman, but that's doesn't make it false information.

Jonathan

Chango

05-28-2007, 05:54 PM

Victor,
Your hatred for my Sifu and the HFY lineage is clouding your since of logic here. you seem to have issues controlling your emotions. It would probrably be better if you would spare the forum and the rest of us from your rants on HFY. We all know that you have made up your mind on things and that is not going to change via the internet. You have already said that you are not interested in HFY so nuff said.

you chose to remain ignorant when it comes to HFY. That's fine, but the bad thing is that you take every opportunity to display this ignorance. Man come on :rolleyes:

drleungjohn

05-28-2007, 08:46 PM

Since MOST haven't seen or experienced HFY-

1-What makes it different?

2-What is the WC formula?

3-What theories seperate it from mainstream WCK AND TWC?

No politics-trolling-etc-discussion and education--go...

osprey3883

05-28-2007, 10:13 PM

Hello,
I think that because of the nature of TCMA and their oral histories, the best we can often do is present our families oral histories, in a respectful manner. TCMA bring a lot of fulfillment to many of us, but many spend way to much time typing, trying to tear each other down. I am a firm believer that we would have way less of this BS if we could have more hands on, face to face interactions.

Victor-

A little less theory and a lot less unverifiable history - coupled with twice as much actual SHOWING of what HFY looks like in action would go a long way - let me tell ya'.

I believe Grandmaster Gee is going to be in Rochester in August for a public seminar. I will happily pay your seminar fee if you are sincere in your desire to experience the teachings of GM Gee in person. :D

drleungjohn

Since MOST haven't seen or experienced HFY-

1-What makes it different?

I had a chance to put hands on/study a few MA's before I was exposed to HFY.
My first Sifu really pressed on me that the details were important, so when I was exposed to HFY it's understanding of structure and body geometry really got my attention. In HFY the training platforms and the concepts behind them help you develop body skills in a very focused manner. Certainly other arts have similar training, but for me the system logic of HFY was something that I could relate to immediately. Sorry this is more of a personal explaination than a technical explaination.

Matt

Savi

05-28-2007, 10:37 PM

Greetings John,
Knowing how sensitive it is to discuss Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun here on KFO, I would say it is best to start a new thread to address your questions so as not to hijack this thread.

I am more than happy to address your questions personally, and I will start a new thread regarding your questions in the next day or so.

Regards,
Savi.

t_niehoff

05-29-2007, 05:16 AM

Hello,
I think that because of the nature of TCMA and their oral histories, the best we can often do is present our families oral histories, in a respectful manner. TCMA bring a lot of fulfillment to many of us, but many spend way to much time typing, trying to tear each other down. I am a firm believer that we would have way less of this BS if we could have more hands on, face to face interactions.

To go back to anerlich's observation for a moment -- if TCMA's "oral histories" were clearly presented as legends, stories, etc. and not as factually true no one could, or would even care to, raise objections. We can all respect each other's legends; it's when people begin to talk about their legend as "the truth" that the issue of independently verifiable evidence arises (proof that it is true). In other words, calls for proof only arise *because* claims of "truth" have been made. So if people would present their legends as legends, this whole issue wouldn't even come up.

Face-to-face interactions would IMO reduce the level of hostility but not the BS: that is built into the "culture" of the TMAs.

ChangHFY

05-29-2007, 06:21 AM

Anerlich,

Most of my post wasnt directed at you,

So I should have been more specific.

Just wanted to make that clear my mention of the Seni07 was to Victor since he was the one referencing it.

Anways its really not important.

take care,
Zach

Ultimatewingchun

05-29-2007, 07:05 AM

I don't hate the lineage. It's only one man in the system who I have no use for.
And as I've said on numerous occasions, I like what I've seen of HFY precisely because it looks so much like another wing chun system I have great respect for: TWC.

So yeah, once again I was taking a swipe at Benny Meng.

But even if it was somebody else from HFY who put on a seminar like that (as it was reported by someone who was there)...I would say the same thing - including if it were a TWC seminar - or whatever wing chun style.

This is 2007. If you put on a martial arts seminar for 2 hours and all you actually "show" the attendees is the first part of SLT and a little dan chi sao - then you've got your priorities in a bad space, imo.

A total marketing space geared for an audience that largely doesn't exist anymore. This is not the 80's or even the mid 90's. The realism of MMA has changed the paradigm: less marketing and more martial realism seems to be the order of the day. I thank the Gracie's for that. (And all those from other styles who have followed their lead).

So I don't like all the history, lineage, and theory hype anymore when I see it - including when it comes from within my own lineage.

But as a courtesy to Nick I won't post anymore on this thread about HFY in general or it's history, theory, personalities, or marketing strategies in particular. So you guys can have the last word for now - I don't care.

And then we can move on and not hijack yet another thread.

t_niehoff

05-29-2007, 07:34 AM

A total marketing space geared for an audience that largely doesn't exist anymore. This is not the 80's or even the mid 90's. The realism of MMA has changed the paradigm: less marketing and more martial realism seems to be the order of the day. I thank the Gracie's for that. (And all those from other styles who have followed their lead).

I don't agree with the observation about "an audience that largely doesn't exist anymore". I think there is a huge "audience" of people who want to practice martial arts but don't want realism, don't want to fight, don't want to do the mandatory training to fight, etc. In fact, I think the group of people genuinely interested in "martial realism" is very small in comparison.

People can practice martial arts for whatever reasons and goals they like -- it's all good. So because different people approach martial arts, including WCK, with different goals and objectives in mind, it should be expected that they will be attracted to various teachers who offer more in an "area" that interests the prospective trainee/student.

anerlich

05-29-2007, 02:47 PM

Most of my post wasnt directed at you

Fair enough.

None of this is overly important.

Phil Redmond

05-29-2007, 05:18 PM

Hi Brothers,

. . . Fong did help establish WCK in the USA in the 70s. I actualy had hopes of writing an article on the "NYC WCK" from the early 70s. The one person i approached, who had learned from a large number of the sifus, that were in NYC, during the 70s, evidently wasnt interested. So without his help, im not sure how i would be able to get a detailed picture, as most only learned from one or two, differant teachers, in that time period. This was the time period that- Lee Moy Shan, Moy Yat, Henry Leung, Duncan Leung, Chow K. , than Alan Lee and William Cheung branchs, settled and developed in the USA. . . .

Brian
I studied with every "known" WC Sifu that taught in NYC in the 70's. Maybe I can help you.
Phil

byond1

05-29-2007, 06:52 PM

Hendrik - I will post a responce to you tomorow. I have been very busy.

Phil - Very good point, you are about the most experianced, of anyone from that time period. That was such a special time in WCKs development, and most of us, never got to experiance it. It would be a great part of your legacy documenting everything that happend during that time period.

We could write it, several ways, im not sure what you would prefer. We could use an interview format. Or a chronological progression, based on realtime events. Send me an email, at deadletter6@Yahoo.com, and we can hash out the details.

B

drleungjohn

05-29-2007, 07:49 PM

i'D LIKE TO HELP OUT IF POSSIBLE-

byond1

05-30-2007, 06:47 PM

Sure Doc. It will be nice to be able to cross referance dates and such, making sure we get them correct.

deadletter6@yahoo.com

Ok Phil if its cool with you, the 3 of us, can get this kicking. Both of you please send me emails, with your initial thoughts, on how we should do this. Wether by Email or Phone, and start setting up the Chronological order, of who came first.

According to Chow Sifu, and Henry Leung Sifu, both predated Lee Moy Shan, who was in NYC, in exaclty 1972. Than Moy Yat followed in either 73 or 74.
Leung Sifu modern group of students place him in NYC in 1969.

Than a bit later we have ALan Lamb, Duncan Leung, Jason Lau, 2 Alan Lees, and than William Cheung when he first brought TWC, to NYC. Anyone I forgot??

B

Ultimatewingchun

05-30-2007, 09:22 PM

Moy Yat moved to Brooklyn, NY from Hong Kong in September, 1973...and began teaching almost immediately.

drleungjohn

05-30-2007, 09:57 PM

Related to Duncan-taught in Queens NY from the late 70's to early 80's then moved to Vegas-

Hendrik

05-31-2007, 07:47 AM

Brian,

Thank you for your caring.

These are realities which are facts.

The reality is you have done excellent job for your website to benifit the Wcners with professional quality. and I respect that highly. That is a fact.

The reality is , eventhough I am not perfect, I dont know it all about YIk Kam and Cho family; and indeed there are much I could learn from other close family senior members;

I am a close direct decendent of Yik Kam and Cho family;
there are technologies which passed to me within close family which some of the lineages might have even lost them.

There is no obligation for me to share these information / technology with everyone or general public because it is private and even within the family one has to earn them. It is not about title or default by one's last name or political campain.

As what Mother Teresa said," count me in where it is march of peace" when someone invite her for march for anti-war.

I support only action lead to keep alive the art, grow, and harmonize the family. Anything other then that or when I am not sure the agenda, I will not take part or endose or exchange for personal benifit, for the final analysis is between me and Yik Kam or the Cho family ancestors and not others.

Best Regards
Hendrik

byond1

05-31-2007, 03:05 PM

Hi Brothers

Now im hearing from some of the Henry Leung Camp, that he was in NYC in 1961!!!! Can anyone vouch for this?? That would place WCK in NYC about 10 years earlier than I thought.

Vic - Understood. Thanks.

Doc - I will ask Phil about it. Im sure he knows the exact date, as he learned from Duncan, if i remember correctly, just as Duncan opened his school, along side Steven Leung.

Ok so we have established Lee Moy Shan moved to NYC, in 1972, and Moy Yat in Sept. of 1973. So we need to put Chow K. Sifu and Leung Henry Sifu into proper perspective.

I know Chow Sifu is a grandstudent of Leung Sheung, learning from Ng Wah Shum. Ng was known for his beimo, and was actually fairly deep in the local H.K M.A community, frequently being asked to "Judge" contests and such.

Hendrik - sorry I havnt posted a responce yet. Ive been rushing to get so much done. IMO, Your are never obligated to share anything. I respect your rights to share or to not share. I respect your rights to state your opinion or not state your opinion.

When I first asked you permission to use posts, that you made over the years and collect them, put them up, so others may have it as a resource for your work, your statement to me was "They are not mine anymore. I gave it to the public to benefit all. Do with it as you will" - So I spent 28 hours collecting the data, over a week long time period. Than later you mentioned I could include your article on Cho Chong Choi and Cho Gar.

Suffice it to say, if I didnt respect your work and Cho Hong Choi, or your rights to express your opinion, I wouldnt have gone to so much effort. As you know I agree with alot of what you believe, but I disagree with certain parts. But it doesnt matter if I fully agree or not. Your research deserves to be heard and is a valuable part of the search for the roots of WCK.

byond1

05-31-2007, 03:19 PM

Ok more data

Chow K.Sifu states in his Bio, he was in NYC in exaclty 1971. If this can be independently verified I think we have:

Henry Leung 1961-1970
Chow K. 1971
Lee Moy Shan 1972
Moy Yat September 1973

w/ Jason Lau, Duncan Leung, Alan Lamb, Alan lee, Allan Lee following

Than if i remember correctly the first time TWC came to the NYC was in 1984?

Hendrik

05-31-2007, 07:57 PM

Hendrik - sorry I havnt posted a responce yet. Ive been rushing to get so much done. IMO, Your are never obligated to share anything. I respect your rights to share or to not share. I respect your rights to state your opinion or not state your opinion.

When I first asked you permission to use posts, that you made over the years and collect them, put them up, so others may have it as a resource for your work, your statement to me was "They are not mine anymore. I gave it to the public to benefit all. Do with it as you will" - So I spent 28 hours collecting the data, over a week long time period. Than later you mentioned I could include your article on Cho Chong Choi and Cho Gar.

Suffice it to say, if I didnt respect your work and Cho Hong Choi, or your rights to express your opinion, I wouldnt have gone to so much effort. As you know I agree with alot of what you believe, but I disagree with certain parts. But it doesnt matter if I fully agree or not. Your research deserves to be heard and is a valuable part of the search for the roots of WCK.

Brian,

Thanks for your caring response.

As we all professional scholar knows, different people love to share in a different way. There is nothing good or bad. Nothing right or wrong. It is just different.

My interest is to preserve as much information which was passed to me from Yik Kam and Cho family lineage as possible. Doesnt matter whether it is right or wrong, so that later when others need them they could find it. as it is.

I know I am not perfect and dont know it all. however, any data filtered is risking to cause a big damage to Yik Kam and Cho family art.

since art is something if one doesnt have the level of insight, one will have no clue what is going on. Since I am not the grand master, I am not in the position to take any risk.

With this interest, I myself prefer Eric Lin's type of site so will continous to share to that type of site.

I respect , trust, and feel my vibes close to Erics' style is that for example this morning when he reply :

" I will be meeting up with Por Suk again very soon. I will get him to elaborate and tape it for you.

I don’t want to pretend to know anything about Cho Gar other than a viewer’s perception.."

He is right. there are things that without the experience, not within the close family, without knowing the situation, or without an experience, could not know.

As an example I have experienced with, there are some one who ask his students to call me sisuk for years since the first day we met, be it in the writting, or forum...etc.

And suddently somehow some outsider decided this person has to be in higher position / rank level. so he was promoted into my sifu's level.

I am stunt.

how could this person promote just because some one likes to? not to mention this person has a sifu who now got demote to have the same rank with him.

May be in some other culture that is ok. But for me, I feel Eric's way suit me better because I am from SEA.

Also, I am not use to deciding others internal family affair. As a chinese, the confusius said, " one doesnt making decision on the matter where one is not in the position." I am just too traditional chinese.

Your site is an excellent research site. I respect you spend 28 hours collecting the data and over a week long time period . I can relate to the experience because I spend almost 25 years to understand the yik kam's SLT enginee based on the yik kam kuen kuit, white crane, and emei technology..

That is to the point, it could be possible to help others to synthesis the 5th stanza to orbit in a very short period of time, within days instead of years, those who have visited me such as Jim or others experience themself.

Thanks for your caring. and I hope we passed on this subject for now.

Perhaps there are room in the future for sharing after I understand more about your site. however, I would reserve my sharing for now.

Thanks and appreciate for your caring response again.

Best Regards
Hendrik

Ultimatewingchun

05-31-2007, 09:19 PM

You're correct about TWC, Brian. It first appeared in NYC when William Cheung did a week-long seminar in February, 1984.

drleungjohn

06-01-2007, 07:33 AM

He officially started teaching in 1974 on 32 St. in NYC

byond1

06-01-2007, 04:05 PM

Hi everybody,

Thanks for everyones contributions so far.

Doc - Im approaching having a basic structure. Once thats in place, im going to work with Phil, relating his experiances with each teacher. Send it to him to polish it, or make corrections and/or additions, and than send it to you, for your input and cross referance. If thats cool?

OK - here is where I need some opinions on - time frame wise.

1) Henry Leungs modern students state he moved to NYC in 1961. I was told initialy by an old school student it was 1969. Can anyone confirm either of these dates?

2) Chow K Chung states in his Bio :

Sifu Chow came to New York in 1971. Sifu Chow opened his first Wing Chun school in New York City. New York Wing Chun Kung Fu Club was set on 224 Lafayette Street in 1972. The school was a success. Later, Sifus like Moy Yat, Duncan Leung, Jason Lau also came to New York and started their Wing Chun teaching.

Any information on if this is accurate?

3) Lee Moy Shan- He officially started teaching in 1974 on 32 St. in NYC

But my understanding Lee Moy Shan was in NYC in 1972 and started teaching a few privatlly before opening his official school in 1974. I believe Vinnie Sibok was one of his first or was his first student. Moy Yat came over in late 1973 because Lee Moy Shan had already been here developing WCK for at least 1 year and told Moy Sigung that people were interested in WCK.

4) Duncan Leung , Jason Lau and Alan Lamb

Any one have any ideas about where and when they first started teaching? Im also not sure if Jason Lau publicaly operated a school, or simply taught a few guys privatly.

Brian

byond1

06-01-2007, 10:25 PM

Thanks for sharing Vic. Very interesting.
From what I have always heard, Lee Moy Shan learned from Moy Yat in H.K. Perhaps i heard wrong!!

B

Jim Roselando

06-02-2007, 09:06 AM

Brian,

From what I have always heard, Lee Moy Shan learned from Moy Yat in H.K. Perhaps i heard wrong!!

The Lee "Moy" Shan club in cambridge, ma (back in the day) said:

Lee Shan originally trained for a period of time under Moy Yat in Hong Kong. Moy Yat relocated to USA and Lee Shan studied a harder style (maybe Hung Gar if memory is correct) when he left. I believe it was not that long but eventually Lee Shan relocated to the USA and continued/finished his training with Moy Yat. Lee Shan eventually open a school with his sifu's name as credit. May Yat Ving Tsun club. Lee Shan's students payed the same respect to him calling their club: Lee Moy Shan Ving Tsun Club.

I'm sure the people who were close to this line have more stories.

Peace,

Tom Kagan

06-02-2007, 09:58 PM

"Lee Shan originally trained for a period of time under Moy Yat in Hong Kong. Moy Yat relocated to USA and Lee Shan studied a harder style (maybe Hung Gar if memory is correct) when he left. I believe it was not that long but eventually Lee Shan relocated to the USA and continued/finished his training with Moy Yat."

NOT TRUE AT ALL. I don't know who started that story - but it's a total fabrication. Douglas Lee (Lee Moy Shan) never met Moy Yat until November, 1973...in Brooklyn, NY.

Jim,

Victor is correct about Douglas.

As an aside, I do find it interesting the story is actually of Henry Moy's history.

byond1

06-03-2007, 03:46 PM

Hi Guys,

Just to share. If im remembering correctly, (As im not perfect) - Lee Gar Lin told me, Lee Moy Shan was a H.K student of Moy Yat. If memory serves, he actually had a photo of them together in H.K, just prior to Lee Moy getting on the plane, on the wall, in his school. I was also told that Vinnie Sibok, Steve Sibok and Lee Gar Lin Sifu, were the 3 eldest American students, of Lee Moy Shan. Of cource this is my understanding of what I was told.

B

byond1

06-03-2007, 08:45 PM

Hi Hendrik

Thanks for all the wonderfull sharing.

1) In my understanding, from what I have found, Yik kam is the Red Boat Opera performer that taught Cho Shun, and later in in Poon Yu. The Kuen Kuit passed down by Cho Shun to Cho Dak Sang and Sam Chan, should be from Yik Kam. What Sam Chan passed down to Cheung Way Boe, and Cho Dak Sang passed down to Cho On and Cho Chuen, should have been the same.

This isnt the same as saying - you personaly have the "Hand written papes of Yik Kam" - Which you have stated publicaly numerous times over the years. You also stated something in the hand writing, suggested a Fukien dialect. So to be clear, all im saying is, if this is truth, perhaps one day, you will allow them to be translated and printed for the whole of the WCK community.

2) I think whats best, is for you to go back to Singapore and address all of your opinions on Cho Gar. Than pay Cheung Way Boe a visit. Than vist Poon Yu Village. I would also share with all of them, how you feel, they have lost part of the art, and see what comes of it. If you truly believe this in your heart, its best to not keep it trapped inside. Communication is always the best route.

3) Yes, 50/50. But since you are the one that feels the other Cho Gar branchs are missing components, its best for you to follow up. Its more logical for you to do, as you are a Cho Gar practioner. I am not, and appreciate all the various blossoms of the plum flower tree of CHo Gar. I would be more than happy to put up your findings, in the pedia.

4) Ask CWB, Singapore Cho Gar, Poon Yu Village, and Cho Chuen decendents, if they want to post their Kuen Kuit. Its not my place to put up material. There has been an expressed concern from several of the Cho Gar branchs, of having their material stolen.

5) Its not my place to teach others WCK currently. Perhaps my sifu would agree to teach you, if you were humble, and didnt try to tell him, what was what. I did offer to visit you, as did an elder of mine, to share with you, in realtime. But you didnt accept.

Everyone has been waiting for you to video tape yourself. So if you expect others to, its best to lead by example. You are also finding problems with everyone elses WCK, so you must really be high hands. I think we could all learn from you. Please share in hopes of improving the quality of WCK everywhere.

4th section?? Yes, I heard about the 4th section. Cho On accused someone of changing, making up or adding material if I remember correctly. As you know the 4th section is simply the core cycles. The way I practise WCK, is the cycles are practised first. And are not linked into a long form, as in Cho Gar.

Short Ging is trained in every single aspect of what I do. From the first Pian Choi to SLT to LDBG. Just like the Half Point, is hidden, in everything I do. If you wish to discuss it indepth, you can send me an email, and I would be happy to share with you, what little i know.

I have already made the fact clear, that I do not practise Cho Gar. Please review past postings to save bandwidth.

So I have a few questions for you.

A)Please share who, you and Cho Hong Choi, learned the Emie 12 jong from?

B) Could you please Video tape your self performing SLT back to back with the Emie 12 Jong, so we can see what the connections you are refering to??

C) Is it true that most of your ideas, about WCK being Internal, actually came from Tai Chi??

D)If you are willing, I think it best if you helped me with Cho Gar Lineage Chart - So things are done correctly. As a librarian you must have collected all the data. You did mention somewhere that, Cheung Way Boe shouldnt be a student of Sam Chan, but Cho Hong Choi? And Sy Liu is a student of Cho Hong Choi??

Thanks for all your time in responding.

Brian

drleungjohn

06-03-2007, 10:41 PM

Just for the record-I also heard he was a HK student as well-trained some there-then here in NY-Opened a school with MY's blessings in 74

Yes-Vinnie,Steve and Darrell were his first "American" students/disciples-but Richard Louie and Stan here on the list were also "oldtimers" and "firsters"

Hey Victor-just off topic-based on what you know-did MY ever teach anybody all 8 sections of the knife besides his son?

byond1

06-03-2007, 11:07 PM

Thanks for sharing Doc.

Tom Kagan also knows alot about the Knife sets that Moy Sigugn passed down. I guess there were several differant versions of the set he knew. Sunny Tangs book on the Bot Jam Tao, have 1 version.

Something interesting Vic shared - was the footage, Moy yat played for him of the knives, and if i remember correctly he turned off the video, at somepoint , possibly hiding the Sam Gwok Mah footwork. Perhaps Vic can retell the story!!~

And now that I think of it, isnt Sunny tang supposed to be a H.K student of Moy Yat as well?

B

Jim Roselando

06-04-2007, 05:57 AM

Vic/Tom,

Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun
"Lee Shan originally trained for a period of time under Moy Yat in Hong Kong. Moy Yat relocated to USA and Lee Shan studied a harder style (maybe Hung Gar if memory is correct) when he left. I believe it was not that long but eventually Lee Shan relocated to the USA and continued/finished his training with Moy Yat."

NOT TRUE AT ALL. I don't know who started that story - but it's a total fabrication. Douglas Lee (Lee Moy Shan) never met Moy Yat until November, 1973...in Brooklyn, NY.

Jim,

Victor is correct about Douglas.

As an aside, I do find it interesting the story is actually of Henry Moy's history.

Hello,

The story I mention was the story the LMS club in Central Sq would promote. David Robinson was LMS student and ran the club. I only met David once or twice. I did not hear the story from him but rather his pupils and its been a Long Long Time so most likely I could have stories confused but I am pretty sure this was the normal story promoted. Thanks for sharing!

Peace,

drleungjohn

06-04-2007, 06:42 AM

Yes,that's an interesting story-I have that memo from the VTAA -they did a good job of sending it everywhere-

As for the knife film-scary and funny-and sad-the last section??? A kneeling horse maybe? Who knows-was the form on the film the same or similar to the beginning sections he taught you--

Lee Moy Shan's knife was set in a kind of H pattern,like an old karate form-

Tom Kagan

06-04-2007, 09:02 AM

Hey Victor-just off topic-based on what you know-did MY ever teach anybody all 8 sections of the knife besides his son?

LOL! I have no idea where people get these ideas. Good teachers don't leave all the knowledge in the hands of one person. If anything, William was forced by his father to work harder to get the knowledge than just about everyone else. (He did, BTW.)

Moy Yat taught the entire knife form as he learned it to probably over three dozen people. (Lee Moy Shan was not one of them.) Also, Victor's comment regarding "first group" was a reference to teaching in the U.S. A small group of Moy Yat's Hong Kong Students were taught it, too.

As far as the tape Victor refers to, probably close to 20 of Moy Yat's students have a copy of it. If memory serves, it contains the forms of Ip Ching, Ip Chun, and ... and ... crap! One other person I can't remember.

All three versions of the form on the tape were slightly different. They were slightly different than Moy Yat's version, too. He presented them without bias, and presented it as alternatives to his. (FWIW, the truth is he did indicate a very subtle bias towards Ip Ching's version of the choreography and away from the three others.)

"F@ck the form! Just hold the knives in your hands and practice what you already know. You do that a lot and you'll know the knives better than anyone who knows a f@cking form. You want a form? I got a tape. Four forms - you pick... and try not to kill yourself. Who the hell else is going to come visit me on Father's Day?"
-- Moy Yat, (to the best of my recollection w/o digging out an 8 year old log.)

t_niehoff

06-04-2007, 11:32 AM

"F@ck the form! Just hold the knives in your hands and practice what you already know. You do that a lot and you'll know the knives better than anyone who knows a f@cking form. You want a form? I got a tape. Four forms - you pick... and try not to kill yourself. Who the hell else is going to come visit me on Father's Day?"
-- Moy Yat, (to the best of my recollection w/o digging out an 8 year old log.)

ROFLOL! Maybe Moy Yat was much smarter than I gave him credit for. :)

chusauli

06-04-2007, 02:06 PM

Thank you gentlemen (Victor and Tom) for your comments. I really appreciate your honesty and straightforwardness on this topic. It confirms what I knew about LMS and Moy Yat for many years and I have come to terms with the past.

Victor, I heard much of you and John Cheng's work and I know all about Danny Inosanto and the Moy Yat story. You are a pioneer of the realism from our early generation. LMS was indeed an early student of Moy Yat in the USA, whereas Henry Moy was one of Moy Yat's student in HK.

Tom, your quote from Moy Yat was priceless, and showed both his wisdom and character.

These were priceless posts to me.

Best regards,

chusauli

06-04-2007, 04:32 PM

Brian wrote:

Hi Guys,

Just to share. If im remembering correctly, (As im not perfect) - Lee Gar Lin told me, Lee Moy Shan was a H.K student of Moy Yat. If memory serves, he actually had a photo of them together in H.K, just prior to Lee Moy getting on the plane, on the wall, in his school. I was also told that Vinnie Sibok, Steve Sibok and Lee Gar Lin Sifu, were the 3 eldest American students, of Lee Moy Shan. Of cource this is my understanding of what I was told.

B

Hi Brian,

Vinnie Thomas, Richard Louie, Dave Robinson, Steve Goerick, and Darrell Jordan (Lee Gar Lin) are amongst the eldest of LMS' students. They were all my seniors.

Regarding LMS being a HK student of Moy Yat, I don't believe that to be correct, although Henry Moy was. LMS was a NYC student of Moy Yat, and had prior studied Hung Ga, Karate (under Russell Kozuki), and Southern Mantis (under Mark Gin Foon).

drleungjohn

06-04-2007, 10:14 PM

Nice of you to pop in-hope all is well-

chusauli

06-05-2007, 05:55 AM

All is great! Just taking a bit of time out of my schedule to get some entertainment and enjoy life!

Always nice to catch up with our WCK bretheren!

byond1

06-05-2007, 01:00 PM

Hi Sihings,

OK - to add to our info, from Lee Gar Lin Sifu's website, he has an interview with Lee Moy Shan, and states at the top, Lee Moy Shan, who has been teaching VT in the metropoliatin area since 1974!~ Placing all of the other information into context.

B

Jim Roselando

06-05-2007, 01:04 PM

Hello all,

Just so there is no confusion with Soft Internal Art basic physical method, I recommend reading the first couple of chapters of a Wuji Gong book with Cai Songfeng (pronounced Choy). Without seeing Hendrik one can certainly grasp a damm good idea as to the basic concepts.

While this book is not Wing Chun it has a good description of the basic Cultivation which is remarkably similar to Hendrik's understanding of Cho Hung Choi's Yik Kam basic teaching. Soft art is soft art after all. :)

One of the most important similarities is the Lower Back/Spine! Since Master Choy's teaching is designed to cultivate the Zheng Qi in the = shoulder ma and this is also an early stanza in the Yik Kam/Cho Kuen Kuit: Collect the yi and union with shen in the = stanza, a physical comparrison is worthy IMO. GM Fu Wei Zhong also uses this root platform. I know as I spent hours with him pumbling him with questions. Soft art is soft art after all. :)

***

Master Choy teaches the sway/flex of spine which in turn not only condition the body but activate the ren/du/Internal. Classic Soft internal process and activation. Same as CHC's Yik Kam Wing Chun teaching which IMO is the uniqueness of true soft art!!! Just watch any SLT and look at the spine/lower back. It will tell you if this aspect is active or Not. If it isn't? Its not Soft Art.

***

I have watched all the Cho footage presented. You mention that you heard a Cho was the person who wrote those Kuit's and not Yik Kam which means they are still guidelines for Cho decendants to follow right? Yik Kam or Cho member, either one doesn't matter to me since they felt it was important enough to make a guideline for future generation to follow right?

Which Cho practitioner is demonstrating anything to do with those internal guidlines? Ask yourself that question after reading the first few chapters of Cai Songfeng book.

Maybe these links will help understand what Hendrik is talking about and looking for:

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=786

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=804

Hendrik

06-06-2007, 06:47 PM

Jim,

IMHHHHHHHHO

Just be very straight forward and direct, whoever trying to get rid or trying to denounce or trying to disprove the first 5 stanza of the Kuen Kuit passed down by Yik Kam is actually damaging Yik Kam's teaching and Cho family, eventhough often these type of tragic happen in the Chinese history where the decendent has no idea what is going on with the close family teaching.

Using common sense, without even have to go to soft or hard art....etc.

the first five stanzas which I have post is the basic of the art.

It teaches on the technics to get grounded, mentally, breathing-ly, physically.

One needs these 5 to start the training of the SLT Yik Kam passed down.

The simple reason is one needs to aware of oneself, the components within one's mind and body. one needs to recognize these basic elements and aware of how the mind is related to the body, the breathing is related to the mind, and aware of the body's support system related to the nature or ground.

A simple fact is if one is not aware and recognize of the basic elements, it is analogy to the cut flower, sure it is beautiful but it is in the flower port, it has no root , no life, and no support.

According to Yik Kam's writting (some will try to pick at the language when I say Yik Kam's writing for arguement sake. let's face it if Cho Soon doesnt have seen Yik Kam's writing and read it copy it understanding it. there is no such thing will passed down within the Cho family today, so stay away form playing with words, the art is in the weakest era, so there is no point to damage the family's art due to unconcious of the subject) that is what needed for Hoi Kuen or open the art or starting the training. to know and recognize the basic essencial components. that is the different which differentiate between close family indoor student or just student.

WCK's strength is Sensing, Observing, Awaring,... thus one needs to be able to sense, observe, aware, recognize what one is doing before one could clearly sense the opponents and the evironment.

Those are the basic training. Those are the key. Those are what differentiate WCK from other non sensing non awareness concious type of art.

Furthermore, these 5 stanza will develop into be able to Observe without Absorb be it for mind and body. This is very important.

for example, we face some one and some one said " I am going to take you down for every fight end up in ground" , so how are we deal with it? Absorb the infomation and starting our own struggling war within our mind before even any physical action? so how to deal with this? these 5 reveal about this type of case...... see what The first stanza said -----, collect the Yee, union with the shen in the equal shoulder stance.

not to mention the handling of the physical....

it is this 5 stanza give the fundamental life to SLT. and we dont do SLT similar to other hard style or non awareness concious based style.

Saying these, some might belive, some might not.... that it is ok for me. at least, I said what is in my heart. Let this post get cast in the stone so that the future generation of WCners knows I have said it. Eventhough I am not the only one who knows and realized the critical important of the first 5 stanza. and BTW 2 of these five stanzas are related to the Emei 12 Zhuang writing. That is a fact.

Dont beleive me, you dont have to?

For those who is interested,
Arrange a two day seminal in San Jose, I will share and guide you throught the basic info with you, and let yourself write about it after you know what it is and see how it will change your life following the instruction. A request I have for this seminal is, this is for humanistic /loving kindness, daily living, and as art to improve one's SLT purposes only. No figthing application will be discuss in the seminal.

Peace