Why I don't practice CLF anymore.

[Fu-Pow]

Some people have thought in the past that I have a certain allegiance to a particular martial arts style, sub-branch or teacher. They were dead wrong. What my quest in martial arts has always been is to find the best style, sub-branch or teacher and learn as much as I can. (I often approach that learning from many different angles, historical, practical, biological to get the best understanding that I can.)

With that in mind IMHO there some serious flaws in the CLF system. That's not to say that CLF isn't effective as a method of hand to hand combat, it can be. The problem as I see it is that there are more efficient ways and better strategies to the same result (ie effectiveness in hand to hand combat.) The style that I have been increasingly drawn to for the last ten years is Chen Taiji..... for these two main reasons, efficiency and strategy.

Greater efficiency means 3 things:

1) Less wasted motion leads to greater power potential.
2) Less wasted motion leads to quicker response times.
3) Less wasted motion leads to less training injuries.


In the strategy of Chen Taiji hard force (li) is not met with hard force (li.) That's not to say that force is never resisted or met with resistance or that force is not issued.

However, it is different than meeting it with muscular strength. The strength in Chen Taiji is more like the rigidity of a hose filled with water rather than an iron bar like CLF (or any other external style for that matter). In practice this means that there is less chance of injury as a result of your own actions. Yes, you can hard block an attack with a shin or forearm but eventually your body will pay the price.

So I think there are better ways and that is the path that I am following. I don't regret my CLF training, it still informs alot of what I do and it was a great discipline for me as a young man. However, as I move into my 30s I need a training method where I can continue to progress for the next 60 yrs (hopefully!). Unfortunately, that means that I've had to "invest in loss" and abandon my CLF training so that I can refine the body mechanics of Chen Taiji.....and they are very different from anything that I currently understand.

Best to everyone in their training and I hope you CLFers still consider me your kung fu brother even if I've chosen another road.

Take care,

FP

Here are some clips of my Taiji Sigung:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4w_62WX9Rk

Here's some really good Chen Taiji push hands from my Sibak:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DADYbpj4oMw

[htowndragon]

uhh....half+ of ur ignore list are probably some of the most hardcore CLF people on this forum...

[Fu-Pow]

uhh....half+ of ur ignore list are probably some of the most hardcore CLF people on this forum...

Am I missing your point?:confused:

[Crosshandz]

Are you practicing the Hunyuan Taiji form or Hong Junsheng's practical method?

[Fu-Pow]

Are you practicing the Hunyuan Taiji form or Hong Junsheng's practical method?

Hun Yuan Taiji. Chen Zhonghua is a student of Hong Junsheng and now Feng Zhiqiang.

FP

[msg]

that stuff looks realy interesting . like a tai.chi hsing.i mix iam probaly wrong thats what it lok like to me but it looks like it would also have health benifets .and a good fighting system

[Fu-Pow]

that stuff looks realy interesting . like a tai.chi hsing.i mix iam probaly wrong thats what it lok like to me but it looks like it would also have health benifets .and a good fighting system

Yes, it is a xin yi and taiji mix. Mostly Taiji though.

FP

[Satori Science]

I'm a student of Master Chen's top disicple in the Hong Jongshen system and practice Bak Hsing CLF, sorta missed your point as I find that they compliment each other quite well...

[Fu-Pow]

I'm a student of Master Chen's top disicple in the Hong Jongshen system and practice Bak Hsing CLF, sorta missed your point as I find that they compliment each other quite well...

How long have you studied the Taiji?

FP

[chasincharpchui]

there is no best style fu-pow, its the man behind it!

even tho u don;t train clf anymore, we will still remember ur comment on the ineffectiveness of buk sing. and for ur sake wen u do meet any of us
i hope ur chen taiji water filled horse has given u quicker response times and greater power.

[CLFNole]

I really think it all comes down to the sifu you follow and how their school is structured and set up. I always have felt CLF and tai chi worked well with each other but practicing CLF alone doesn't have to always be hard vs. hard. I think understanding soft power and loose springy power can help avaoid injuries. I have been doing CLF for almost 15 years now and never had any serious injuries. Yeah we all have aches, pains and bruises but what martial artist doesn't. I always tell students being a martial artist is about learning to live with some type of pain.

Any how good luck with the tai chi, you always have to follow your heart and think of what is best for you. I probably have some other ideas as to what could have pushed you more towards tai chi but I would rather not air that in the open as it wouldn't benefit anyone.

Peace.

[msg]

fu.pow wundering if you know of any teachers over my way .i would like to do some training in that .i think i would go well with my hsing.i

[yutyeesam]

CLF and Hun Yuan Xin Yi Chen Taiji have been regulars in my diet for more than the last 10 years. They compliment each other, in my training. Anything is possible as long as you practice moderation (moderation is one of the keys GM FZQ always talks about).

But you choose the path you choose. Yang Laoshi always says to not quit at the first signs of discomfort, but to also not push to the point of breaking, either. Some days I feel more CLF, other I feel more Taiji. It's almost as if I need my Taiji to appreciate my CLF and I need my CLF to appreciate my Taiji...probably doesn't make any sense. Anyhoo.


I probably have some other ideas as to what could have pushed you more towards tai chi but I would rather not air that in the open as it wouldn't benefit anyone.


LOL CLFNole, you shouldnta said nuthin! Now I'm TOTALLY curious to know the scoop on this!! That's like saying, "I have a secret, and you don't know what it is, nyah nyah!" :D

[Fu-Pow]

I really think it all comes down to the sifu you follow and how their school is structured and set up.

Very true.



I always have felt CLF and tai chi worked well with each other but practicing CLF along it doesn't have to always be hard vs. hard.

For me it is a combination of self-inflicted injuries by not moving "naturally" and injuries accumulated by meeting force with force in sparring. That's why I think in the long term this is not a winning strategy.


I think understanding soft power and loose springy power can help avaoid injuries. I have been doing CLF for almost 15 years now and never had any serious injuries.

From my perspective I don't see that the body mechanics of CLF and Taiji are compatible. It would be like saying that the body mechanics of Southern Praying Mantis and Choy Lay Fut are compatible. In my mind they're THAT different...if not more so.




Yeah we all have aches, pains and bruises but what martial artist doesn't. I always tell students being a martial artist is about learning to live with some type of pain.

That just goes with the territory. Everyone has to pay their dues. My Taiji teacher apparently got a dislocated rib on a recent trip to train with his Sihings. So it doesn't matter how good you are, you're still gonna have and off day and that's part of paying your dues.




Any how good luck with the tai chi, you always have to follow your heart and think of what is best for you. I probably have some other ideas as to what could have pushed you more towards tai chi but I would rather not air that in the open as it wouldn't benefit anyone.

Peace.

There were other factors involved from the ones I have stated but in retrospect I think I was just ready to move on to something else. My personality is like that, once I get what I came for I move on. I felt with CLF that I had got what I came for and it was time to continue in a new direction. But you're first statement was correct, if I'd had a different teacher maybe I would have stuck around a little longer, but since I didn't this is the way that things played out.

Ciao

FP

[CLFNole]

There is no scoop to what I said. My ideas about why he moved on from CLF are based on his posting. So "mo gum baat kwa" okay. ;)

[Eddie]

I think you are blaming the style and the teacher, when the real blame should be on yourself. Nothing wrong with CLF as a fighting style, and if you feel it lacks certain aspects, perhaps you didn’t train with that in mind.
If you’re not going to train like a fighter, you wont learn how to fight.

[Yen-Wang-Yeh]

Not every style is for every one, nor is every teacher suited for every student. Fu-Pow, good luck in your search for whatever it is you may be seeking.

[Fu-Pow]

I think you are blaming the style and the teacher, when the real blame should be on yourself.

Actually I'm not "blaming" anyone. That's just the way things played out. I'm sorry if you feel that I'm putting down CLF, I'm not. I wouldn't have invested 10 years of my life into it if I thought it was a piece of crap.




Nothing wrong with CLF as a fighting style, and if you feel it lacks certain aspects, perhaps you didn’t train with that in mind.
If you’re not going to train like a fighter, you wont learn how to fight.

Never said there was anything wrong with CLF as a fighting style. No question in the right hands it can be effective. However, your body will ultimately pay the price for that type of training and fighting strategy. Its OK when you are young but it will catch up with you. IMO there are better training methods and fighting strategies. Ultimately its what works for you and your lifestyle.

[T. Cunningham]

CLF Nole makes a solid point. At the end of the day, it all boils down to the instruction and how well the student follows it. Regardless of the style, the objective should be natural movement otherwise injury is inevitable. The same applies with efficiency of movement. It comes down to understanding the movement and how it relates to your body. Many people assume they are advanced simply because they practice the higher level forms. Problem is they often perform these in the same fashion as they performed the beginning sets. Being that the methods of generating energy become more sophisticated as we move through the forms, it is essential that our understanding grows and that we adapt our movements accordingly. The forms teach us these things, but we have to pay attention.

Kung Fu is a thinking man's/woman's game. It requires rational thought and analysis in combination with the endless repetition of your forms and drills.

[hskwarrior]

see, i agree with clfnole, t.c., and eddie.

also, choy lee fut isn't for just anyone. truthfully, clf is without a doubt one of the most effective systems out there. its practical, effective, and not full of flashy moves that mean nothing.

however, if one was to find holes in his clf, there is enough material out there within clf that if you looked good enough, you can cover up ALL the holes. I agree with drilling, but forms are becoming obsolete? (spelling) in its purpose. when i get stressed out, i practice my forms. partly because i train as if someone is in front of me. so i wipe em out every time!!!!!!! but, forms in the bigger scheme of things is on the lower end of the totem pole when it comes to fighting and learning how to use your gung fu.

don't get me wrong, performing is fun, but nothing beats bashing arms, and struggling and such.....forms just don't bring it like that. that's why i hope in the near future more clf schools will back off on forms cause too much credibility is given to them.......like what lineage is better due to forms......a dance, just a routine set of moves. if anyone believes that you can use the moves within the forms, you're sadly mistaken.

nothing is as predictable as when practicing forms. in fact, i guarantee that at least 90% of our gung fu gets thrown out in the heat of battle. thats why its great to drill combo's, work on muscle memory, and eventually break away from that "ok, with your right hand punch me at a 90degree angle using only your two knuckles and aim it at my nose".......................i along with other CLF sifu's have taken a different approach to that kind of training. truelly, thats not effective.

so let fu pow go..........clf will still be here.;)

[CLFNole]

I agree with you Frank. Every style has some type of weakness as no style is 100% effective one just needs to work on not letting that weakness get exposed or work in improving the weakness by either re-examining what you know or opening up your mind and looking elsewhere for help.

I am not sure I completely agree that forms can't be used for fighting. I agree long drawn out sections are completely impractical but bits and pieces can work. But then I think we probably both agree on that since that is what drills basically are effective bits and pieces from the forms.

I don't think anyone should get on Fu-Pow for chaning to a different style. If CLF is not for him no big deal because its right for us and that is what matters most, doing what is best for us whatever style that might be.

[hskwarrior]

now im kinda giving up some of my teaching secrets.....but for new students they don't get to learn the form until they master the techniques within them. something not typically done in hung sing. its usually before understanding the form, you learn it, practice it and only after you memorized it do you get to look inside of it.

so i took the combo's and such out of the sets, drills them and when i see progress they get to learn the form. i've discovered that they learn better that way, and actually know why and what they are doing in the form prior to learning it.

like most speak about clf's long range stuff, but they have no idea about the inside hands of our gung fu. so what. let them believe that. but just cause you find limitations in what your SIFU taught you, doesn't mean that clf doesn't have an answer.......be creative, open minded, and willing to learn. then you'll recognize how to strengthen weakness's n how to build on your strengths. thats why i feel i don't have to go outside of clf to learn things......unless its grappling....

who knows?

[CLFNole]

That is more or less what I was referring to as a weakness possibly the grappling aspect. I am with you on the inside stuff there is plenty of that and we do have cum la and some grappling type stuf but of course it is not as refined as jujitsu becuase the ground isn't our primary focus.

We also incorporate many of the techniques into the early stages. In the warm-up it is common to practice various techniquess - chop choy, gwa, sow, biu and combos from right side to left side. This makes the transition in learning a form a bit easier.

[Fu-Pow]

Regardless of the style, the objective should be natural movement otherwise injury is inevitable. The same applies with efficiency of movement. It comes down to understanding the movement and how it relates to your body.

I disagree. Some styles are fundamentally more "natural" than others. Some are detrimental to health because they require your body move in an contrived way. For example, doing a wide horse stance with your toes pointed forward puts undue pressure on the outside of the knees and ankles.

However, in the Southern styles I have studied this is considered correct. Also, turning the toes in doing a bow stance puts pressure on the outside of the knee. This is a common training method in the forms of Southern Styles...not just CLF.

But we can debate this for days and you will probably disagree with me. However, this has been my experience and that's all I can really say. If our experiences are different than there is no common ground that can be reached.

I can say that my body is a lot healthier since quitting practicing CLF and only doing Taiji. My girlfriend who is a massage therapist (thanks god!) has noticed a huge release of tension in previous problem areas. And these problems were not being caused because I wasn't following the advice of my former teacher....but because I was.

[hskwarrior]

right nole,

but NEW CLF generations should be more adapt at dealing with grapplers.

like friday during class we exploring how to use our choy lee fut against someone shooting in. we took the reverse jump typically used in lion dancing as a means of gaining alot of ground during a retreat. we started dropping pek choy on the tops and backs of heads while retreating. worked great but not an end all situation.

then, my student iron ox stumbled across this which worked great too. jason my student charged in ox jumped backward intending to launch a snap kick in the air but jason was too close. but......jason got a knee right under his chin that could have knocked him out.....

it's stuff like this i feel clf needs to start developing.

[CLFNole]

I agree there are also ways to use loq gwai ma (knee down horse) with pek choys and cup choys in certain situations.

When I was talking about styles having weaknesses I was talking about all styles not specifically CLF. What I was getting at is by moving from one style to another different weaknesses in the style might present themselves.

[hskwarrior]

definately

like some have never even considered the kneel down horse as a means of blocking a leg sweep. but hey:confused:

[Infrazael]

Speechless.

Eric, you continually to leave me utterly and simply speechless with your recent threads (with each one being more awesome than the last :rolleyes: ).

All I can say is . . . . . . well, I don't know what to say anymore.

[Infrazael]

I think you are blaming the style and the teacher, when the real blame should be on yourself. Nothing wrong with CLF as a fighting style, and if you feel it lacks certain aspects, perhaps you didn’t train with that in mind.
If you’re not going to train like a fighter, you wont learn how to fight.

+1 . . . . . . . . .

[Havick01]

I was going to stay out of this but i have to say somthing. Dont blame the teacher or the style because clf is one of the most deadly systems out there, look at the person that is training:rolleyes:

[Fu-Pow]

fu.pow wundering if you know of any teachers over my way .i would like to do some training in that .i think i would go well with my hsing.i

Not that I know of. There are lots of DVDs and other learning materials out there though if you are really interested. If you already have a solid base in Xing Yi you might be able to learn it solo?

FP

[Havick01]

Fu pow

I challenge you to fight me 3 rounds full contact and lets see how much you really know about fighting!

[CLFNole]

I believe you are one of his "ignore list" victims so I don't think he will see your challenge.

[Havick01]

I believe you are one of his "ignore list" victims so I don't think he will see your challenge.

you guys see it, thats what matters

[CLFNole]

Don't you guys live near each other? Weren't the two of you teaching at a university together or something like that? If you guys actually get it on, give us the results.

[Havick01]

Don't you guys live near each other? Weren't the two of you teaching at a university together or something like that? If you guys actually get it on, give us the results.

I have about 15 people i train on my own, fu pow and i no longer have ties. Is ego to big for his own good especialy when he cant fight at all.:D He likes to talk alot.

[CLFNole]

Do you still continue to train with Sifu Mak?

[Havick01]

Do you still continue to train with Sifu Mak?

I train with sifu mak one on one:)

[T. Cunningham]

Fu Pow,

You're right. We'll have to agree to disagree. I've been doing CLF a bit longer than you and I've had my share of injuries. I can attribute those injuries to incorrect/unnatural movement derived from my understanding of how things should be done. Once my understanding was corrected, my problems for the most part went away and I was able to execute the techniques with more power.

As to horses, with the knees pushed out or in, there will be pressure on the joint. The question is how long you take in building up the time you sit in the horse and whether or not your structure is correct. Some people rush the process.

Regardless, good luck in your new pursuits, but be careful of falling into the same situation.

[Fu-Pow]

Todd, I appreciate your perspective. Like I said, I don't think that it was something that I was doing "wrong" but rather something inherent in some of the methodologies/strategies of CLF.

Let me reiterate though, I'm not disputing CLFs effectiveness as a martial art. What I'm disputing is CLF as a long term methodology/strategy, I think ultimately you will pay a heavy price and there will be a cap on the progress that one can make.

Some might say "well you didn't give it enough of chance" or "you just didn't get it" or "it was your teacher" or simply "you suck"....but the truth is I pursued this for 10 years under a really good teacher.....I was a certified instructor under this teacher and teaching alot of classes for him.... and so my analysis is not hasty...it's based on many years of training and study.

Anyways, its just my two cents...people are welcome to disagree if their experiences are different than mine.

FP

[Fu-Pow]

That's a pretty cool story (and great insights as well), thanks for sharing it. :D

[Infrazael]

Fu pow

I challenge you to fight me 3 rounds full contact and lets see how much you really know about fighting!

C'mon Eric, don't back out.

[CLFNole]

He can't even see the post so it really means nothing. Needs to be arranged locally I guess.

[Havick01]

C'mon Eric, don't back out.

Like i said hes all talk.:D

[yutyeesam]

As long as you practice moderation, listen to your body, practice stillness along with motion, practice soft with hard, you can grow old with just about any style. There are a good number of folks still doing CLF (and other styles) well into their old age.

-123

[Fu-Pow]

As long as you practice moderation, listen to your body, practice stillness along with motion, practice soft with hard, you can grow old with just about any style. There are a good number of folks still doing CLF (and other styles) well into their old age.

-123

That's definitely what I'm doing, listening to my body...and it said "no more CLF, Taiji only"....and then something I couldn't quite decipher ;)

[yutyeesam]

OT: Fu-pow, did you ever learn GM FZQ 30 Silk Reeling Exercises?

-123

[Fu-Pow]

OT: Fu-pow, did you ever learn GM FZQ 30 Silk Reeling Exercises?

-123

I learned alot of them. My school has a class that is just Chan Si Gong. Its is very good and really loosens up the joints. Why do you ask?

[yutyeesam]

I learned alot of them. My school has a class that is just Chan Si Gong. Its is very good and really loosens up the joints. Why do you ask?

They made a pretty huge difference on my understanding of form, and how to move my intent/body. My form & tui shou got a lot better after learning&practicing these (along w/everything else). Did it do that for you also?

-123

[Fu-Pow]

They made a pretty huge difference on my understanding of form, and how to move my intent/body. My form & tui shou got a lot better after learning&practicing these (along w/everything else). Did it do that for you also?

-123

No they didn't have that effect for me but I don't practice them as much as I should
:o .

Mostly I work on the form, Tui Shou and the line drills. Did you learn the line drills...Peng, Lu, Ji, An, Zhou, Lie, Cai, Kao done consecutively in a row (sometimes called single push hands)? That stuff is much simpler than the Tao Lu and much easier to see the direct applications of the energies.

We're really lucky this next week we have Chen Xiang ( Feng Laoshi's senior disciple) and Feng Laoshi's daughter coming to the school for a seminar. Chen Xiang is insanely good, apparently he can get the best of my teacher in tui shou and I think my teacher is insanely good.

So much to learn. Hun Yuan is an extensive system just like CLF.

FP

[yutyeesam]

No they didn't have that effect for me but I don't practice them as much as I should
:o .

Mostly I work on the form, Tui Shou and the line drills. Did you learn the line drills...Peng, Lu, Ji, An, Zhou, Lie, Cai, Kao done consecutively in a row (sometimes called single push hands)? That stuff is much simpler than the Tao Lu and much easier to see the direct applications of the energies.

We're really lucky this next week we have Chen Xiang ( Feng Laoshi's senior disciple) and Feng Laoshi's daughter coming to the school for a seminar. Chen Xiang is insanely good, apparently he can get the best of my teacher in tui shou and I think my teacher is insanely good.

So much to learn. Hun Yuan is an extensive system just like CLF.

FP

I learned that awhile ago, and haven't practiced it for awhile. Do you do Wuji Zhuang daily? If you do, how long do you typically go for?
That's awesome you're getting some seniors in for seminars! Hopefully they'll allow people to video it (and potentially post on youtube! :D )

[Fu-Pow]

I learned that awhile ago, and haven't practiced it for awhile. Do you do Wuji Zhuang daily? If you do, how long do you typically go for?
That's awesome you're getting some seniors in for seminars! Hopefully they'll allow people to video it (and potentially post on youtube! :D )

I usually do Wuji Zhuang for a few minutes before I practice the form. When my body starts to tell me that it wants to move I start doing the form. I used to practice holding it for 30 minutes but just ended up with sore calves in the process and didn't see any benefit.

Sorry my teacher really doesn't like video cameras so no dice.

FP

[Buk&Hung Sing]

I feel that internal and external styles both have value; I have a hard time saying one is better than the other. You took the path that martial artists take, based on the cycle of life they are on. My brother studied Southern Dragon and Mok Gar and is now studying Wu style Tai Chi. We all become less physical and more mental as we get older. You should still teach and practice all your knowledge.

[Fu-Pow]

I feel that internal and external styles both have value; I have a hard time saying one is better than the other. You took the path that martial artists take, based on the cycle of life they are on. My brother studied Southern Dragon and Mok Gar and is now studying Wu style Tai Chi. We all become less physical and more mental as we get older. You should still teach and practice all your knowledge.

Well I think that my CLF will continue to "inform" what I do. I still have all my forms on tape so I could pick them up again if need be.

Its just that for a long time CLF was my "framework" that I built my martial arts skill around, I've decided that the Chen Taiji framework works better for me (and in general, although that's obviously debatable.)

And you are right, as you age brute force and strength will no longer save you. It becomes about wit and overcoming your opponent with skill. This is true of whatever style you practice.

[Buk&Hung Sing]

I hope to get into Chen Style Tai Chi myself, Yang is a little too soft for me.

[PangQuan]

Like i said hes all talk.:D

lol. arent you the one issuing an internet challenge to a guy who cant even see your posts?

talking to yourself?

why dont you go call him up in real life....

[Havick01]

lol. arent you the one issuing an internet challenge to a guy who cant even see your posts?

talking to yourself?

why dont you go call him up in real life....

Ive called and emailed no response.

[PangQuan]

hmm...

maybe he doesnt want to fight with you?

i wouldnt say that makes him all talk, it just means he doesnt want to fight you.

unless he's called you out and now is backing down it doesnt really mean much

[Havick01]

hmm...

maybe he doesnt want to fight with you?

i wouldnt say that makes him all talk, it just means he doesnt want to fight you.

unless he's called you out and now is backing down it doesnt really mean much

He just alot of talk, i know him well because he is my class mate

[Infrazael]

Yep I'm in aggrement with Havick01. We're both classmates with Fu-Pow . . . actually both of them are my SiHings, Fu-Pow my EX-sihing . . .

I'm currently training under Havick so yeah. I'm not ****ed at Fu-Pow, just disappointed at his lack of maturity and sheer idiocy.

[SevenStar]

He just alot of talk, i know him well because he is my class mate

We have seen video of him competing, so he can't be ALL talk...

[Havick01]

We have seen video of him competing, so he can't be ALL talk...

LOL!!!:D If you call that competing.

[SevenStar]

even point fighting is competing. Since you seem to knock what he did do though, where is video of you and infrazael? Naturally, yours will be of a higher contact level, since you are knocking fu-pow's....

Basically, what I am saying is since you guys are talking bad about him and issuing challenges, put yourself out there - let us see something.

[Havick01]

even point fighting is competing. Since you seem to knock what he did do though, where is video of you and infrazael? Naturally, yours will be of a higher contact level, since you are knocking fu-pow's....

Basically, what I am saying is since you guys are talking bad about him and issuing challenges, put yourself out there - let us see something.

I dont need to prove my self:D Im not out to be a know it all, people like fu pow should learn how to be a student of the game. Thats the way we all grow!

[hskwarrior]

good talking with you havick.

keep in touch bra.:D

[hskwarrior]

i agree with havick.

when u stop being a student you have no more to learn. but a good martial artist knows learning never stops.

[Havick01]

good talking with you havick.

keep in touch bra.:D

It was cool chating with you, i will keep intouch for sure!

[Fu-Pow]

I thought it would be interesting to revisit this post nearly 15 years later.

I am still practicing Chen taiji, but I see the value in CLF as system that is easier to learn and immediately apply. The reason is that I wanted to teach my son (now 10) some form of martial arts. It would be impossible to teach him Chen Taiji because it's simply too slow and esoteric for a young guy.

A lot of my thoughts from the original post still applies. But here are some pros and cons of each style that I see:

Chen Taiji
-Harder to learn because body mechanics are a bit counterintuitive (opening, closing, silk-reeling, etc.)
-Most effective in the clinch range (also includes strikes with elbows, shoulders, hips, back, etc.)
-Better for your joint health because of how it is practiced
-Almost impossible to defend if someone understands the techniques/mechanics well
-Better for older people who have the patience to move slow at first (but remember, slow is smooth and smooth is fast)
-Most schools don't engage in any kind of hard sparring

Choy Lay Fut
-Extremely practical compared to taichi (shorter learning curve)
-Easier to defend because attacks are more telegraphed
-Good cardio workout
-Most effective at mid to long range
-Looks cooler!
-Compliments kickboxing/san shou well
-Ballistic movements can put stress on the joints
-Too many forms with slight variations on the same core techniques/seeds
-Huge variety in weapons you can learn
-More proactive, don't have to wait for opponent to attack

I could probably think of more, but that's what immediately came to mind. Feel free to agree/disagree. In the meantime, I've also studied BJJ a bit. Really exceptional on the ground, but that's about it.

Also, I should note that some of the issues I was having with CLF in my thirties were probably a result of degenerative disc disease. I've subsequently had a lot of lower back issues as a result of compressed discs. So it's not necessarily a problem with the style, but I do think CLF requires a certain amount of athleticism and is therefore a style more suited to younger people.

Cheers



Some people have thought in the past that I have a certain allegiance to a particular martial arts style, sub-branch or teacher. They were dead wrong. What my quest in martial arts has always been is to find the best style, sub-branch or teacher and learn as much as I can. (I often approach that learning from many different angles, historical, practical, biological to get the best understanding that I can.)

With that in mind IMHO there some serious flaws in the CLF system. That's not to say that CLF isn't effective as a method of hand to hand combat, it can be. The problem as I see it is that there are more efficient ways and better strategies to the same result (ie effectiveness in hand to hand combat.) The style that I have been increasingly drawn to for the last ten years is Chen Taiji..... for these two main reasons, efficiency and strategy.

Greater efficiency means 3 things:

1) Less wasted motion leads to greater power potential.
2) Less wasted motion leads to quicker response times.
3) Less wasted motion leads to less training injuries.


In the strategy of Chen Taiji hard force (li) is not met with hard force (li.) That's not to say that force is never resisted or met with resistance or that force is not issued.

However, it is different than meeting it with muscular strength. The strength in Chen Taiji is more like the rigidity of a hose filled with water rather than an iron bar like CLF (or any other external style for that matter). In practice this means that there is less chance of injury as a result of your own actions. Yes, you can hard block an attack with a shin or forearm but eventually your body will pay the price.

So I think there are better ways and that is the path that I am following. I don't regret my CLF training, it still informs alot of what I do and it was a great discipline for me as a young man. However, as I move into my 30s I need a training method where I can continue to progress for the next 60 yrs (hopefully!). Unfortunately, that means that I've had to "invest in loss" and abandon my CLF training so that I can refine the body mechanics of Chen Taiji.....and they are very different from anything that I currently understand.

Best to everyone in their training and I hope you CLFers still consider me your kung fu brother even if I've chosen another road.

Take care,

FP

Here are some clips of my Taiji Sigung:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4w_62WX9Rk

Here's some really good Chen Taiji push hands from my Sibak:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DADYbpj4oMw

[YinOrYan]

Also, I should note that some of the issues I was having with CLF in my thirties were probably a result of degenerative disc disease. I've subsequently had a lot of lower back issues as a result of compressed discs. So it's not necessarily a problem with the style, but I do think CLF requires a certain amount of athleticism and is therefore a style more suited to younger people.


Uh, I also got compressed discs back in '97 and thought I had to give up Choy Li Fut. It was taking about a decade to heal and was telling the Master I learned most of it from that I didn't think my back would heal more that 90% and he said: you can heal your back to 100% then go beyond that! so that's what I did. Now I can do much harder kung fu than I ever did in my 20's...

[Fu-Pow]

Uh, I also got compressed discs back in '97 and thought I had to give up Choy Li Fut. It was taking about a decade to heal and was telling the Master I learned most of it from that I didn't think my back would heal more that 90% and he said: you can heal your back to 100% then go beyond that! so that's what I did. Now I can do much harder kung fu than I ever did in my 20's...

I can't do any jumping or high kicks without it aggravating my back. Also, had to quit BJJ because every time I rolled back onto my tailbone it caused a disc bulge and caused a lot of pain/numbness.

Unfortunately, I think it's a genetic thing. Both my dad and sister have the same issues.

[YinOrYan]

Unfortunately, I think it's a genetic thing. Both my dad and sister have the same issues.

Sorry to hear that. Born-that-way or just-growing-old are things I tried to avoid when healing. I eventually found the most helpful thing in my control was getting more complete proteins, mostly from soymilk...