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phoenixrising
04-27-2007, 07:08 PM
I was recently told by a chinese acquaintance of an alternate taoist sexual technique he was taught- It involves the male getting himself to the point where he is about to emit and then dousing his bits with cold water, wait until you're soft again, and repeat ten times. This is done 3 times a week and is said to greatly improve the strength and health of the genitals, plus improve 'staying power.' Anyone know whether this would be harmful or not, specifically to the prostate? I read elsewhere that the problems with some these taoist techniques, from a health perspective, is that by repeatedly filling the prostate with semen but then not allowing it to expunge, problems result. Another side effects , I have been told, that may be associated with certain taoist sexual techniques are testicular cancer.

herb ox
04-28-2007, 12:08 AM
You sure the cold water on the bits isn't a prank?

Seriously, though, the cold splash is probably meant to subdue to the heat created and maybe drive the yang deeper in. Problem is, there's already stagnation starting with the 'holdbacks' and cold is further contracting and constricting.

This stagnation created by the engorgement of blood can cause discomfort in males. I've heard doing exercises like Keigel contractions help to massage the qi and prevent this stagnation.

Theres a few good books out on the subject. Daniel Reid, Mantak Chia and Stephen Chang come to mind as authors to check out.

ox

NJM
04-28-2007, 09:35 AM
Well, I don't believe that what you referred to is a Daoist technique. However, a proven scientific method for increasing "staying power" is to stimulate until near-ejaculation, then compressing the head and repeating this 5 times each time.

RonH
04-28-2007, 04:02 PM
I tried that pinching/compressing thing to see how it was.

I will never do it again.

It hurt like you wouldn't believe and I'm not even speaking of the compression. The pain came from the muscles expelling very forcefully, but because it was closed off, they couldn't have their full range of motion and it felt like it was being ripped apart from the inside out. I even tried the whole 'get reved up, calm down, get reved up, calm down, etc.' and all that did was cause too much heat friction and I already put out a lot of heat just laying down. After an hour of that, it looked like I had washed my hands for 10 minutes in scolding hot water, constantly washing with soap over and over again. It was at the point where you want to scratch you skin because it itches so much, but that only makes it far worse. By the end of first hour, there was pain in all the nerves so bad that I couldn't have sex for over a week because of the nerves being overstimulated.

Never again.

mickey
05-17-2007, 06:52 PM
Greetings,

I think it is best to have your channels open so the energy has a place to go. Mantak Chia usually references the Microcosmic Orbit (I will also add Macrocosmic Orbit) as a foundation to other practices, including the semen retention methods. One may also consider learning how to work with the kundalini. To attempt those semen retention methods without any kind of place for the energy to go is to invite pain and suffering. You may even damage your best friend.


mickey

GeneChing
05-18-2007, 11:36 AM
Resisting the temptation to say that tiger balm works better for this than cold water. Still resisting, but the urge is so strong...

mickey
05-18-2007, 12:36 PM
Gene,

That was a great post.

I'll put it second to your Easter post from a few years ago.


mickey

phoenixrising
05-27-2007, 05:03 PM
Mickey,

I spent some time practicing Chia's opening the microcosmic orbit/running the orbit but never seemed to get anywhere so gave it up. Were you successful with it and how long did it take you practicing how long/day?

mickey
05-28-2007, 01:40 PM
Hello phoenixrising,

The microcosmic/macrocosmic orbit is not unique to Mantak Chia. somestine you see them referred to as the small heavenly circle and the large (or grand) heavenly circle. If you reread my previous post you will see that I only make reference to his recommendations, not necessarily his methods.

Did I try his method? Yes

I experienced a small success with it. I experienced MUCH better success from an old friend of mine, who taught me the method from a very physical standpoint. The energy for me is REAL and not some imagined stuff. Practice involved meditation in the early am before sunrise. The best I can say to you is to not have any timetable or any preconcieved expectations. Just be consistent with your practice.

If you cannot find a "gate" for small heavenly circle practice instruction, I suggest you explore kundalini instruction. Once the kundalini goes up to the head the energy can be incredibly intense, almost as if your head may explode (the feeling varies from person to person). If this happens to you just bring your tongue to the top of your mouth and allow it to run down the front channel, thusly, establishing the small heavenly circle via kundalini.

Phoenixrising, because of our cosmological positioning, these methods are becoming easier to do. The name you use, interestingly, is a reference to the kundalini energy. Somebody is trying to tell you something.

Dang, did I write this?


mickey

cjurakpt
05-28-2007, 06:42 PM
If you cannot find a "gate" for small heavenly circle practice instruction, I suggest you explore kundalini instruction. Once the kundalini goes up to the head the energy can be incredibly intense, almost as if your head may explode (the feeling varies from person to person). If this happens to you just bring your tongue to the top of your mouth and allow it to run down the front channel, thusly, establishing the small heavenly circle via kundalini.

just bear in mind that this is not Microcosmic Orbit cultivation from the classical perspective - the Kundalini pathway in Yogic practice is analagous to the tung mak or central channel in Taoist practice; opening up the central channel is a very different practice from the orbit, and at least from a Taoist perspective the central channel should be worked after the orbit is open, as it is less of a shock to the system this way and the liklihood of negative side effects (e.g. - messing up the autonomics) is less

I am not saying that this is how one has to do it or that it's a better way or that the way metioned above won't work - I am just pointing out that it is mixing two different systems that approach opening the energy centers of the body very differently...

cjurakpt
05-28-2007, 06:50 PM
one other thing to consider in regards to retaining semen for purported energy conservation purposes - according to some taoist practice, retaining semen after you have become arroused is worthless, because that semen is already "tainted" by the feeling of sexual desire that caused you to become aroused in the first place - so there is a context to consider here...

my point is that before embarking on what can be a very arduous, not to mention uncomfortable and potentially harmful practice, you might want to be aware that context is very important: in other words, are you living on a mountain top drinking pure water, breathing deeply all day long, eating minimally, sleeping very little, but meditating a lot, having no exposure to daily stress and especially having almost no contact with other people (or their germs)? if so, then the possibility of engaging in semen retention without undergoing sexual arrousal (basically a perturbation of the mind generated by craving , desire and attachemnt) seems plausable, and might actually improve your vitality; in context of everyday life however, it may not make that much of a differnce (aside from decreasing the amount of time of your refractory period)

mickey
05-29-2007, 07:06 AM
Hi cjurakpt,

The kundalini can go up the spine as well and I have experienced it as such. The tongue to the roof was presented as a safety valve. I offered it because I have had the experience. There has been recent looks at taoist methods by kundalini practitioners; in particular, in the use of the front channel to bring the kundalini energy downward as a means to prevent problems. I used this method on my own in an emergency situation (not knowing that others were exploring it). I offered the method to phoenixrising because I suggested kundalini practice and I do not want this person to get hurt from it.

I do not know if you have studied yoga or not. Much of the practice involves the straightening of the spine for the flow of kundalini energy.

mickey

sanjuro_ronin
05-29-2007, 08:56 AM
What is natural?
Don't go against the natural order of things, Taoists should know better.

phoenixrising
05-29-2007, 09:06 PM
Mickey,

thanks for the response. Could you expand on the physical method your old friend taught you?- you can pm me if you prefer. There is actually a kundalini yoga school, Yoga West, not that far from me that offers a free class every morning at like 4:30am or somesuch ridiculously early hour. I went there once or twice years ago (hard to get up that early but u can go to later classes but they're not free)- it is run by Sikh's- they wear white turbans.

Their website is www.yogawestla.com -what do you think?

cjurakpt
05-29-2007, 09:26 PM
The kundalini can go up the spine as well and I have experienced it as such.
if you mean up what is considered the governance vessel from a taoist perspective, well, i certainly don't disagree that it's possible, but it does not appear to be the nrm for that approach - my understanding of yogic practice, basic as it is, is that the chakras are organised along the central line through the body, so this is what is typically worked with; hence my comment that it was not the same as the classically described microcosmic revolution pathway


The tongue to the roof was presented as a safety valve. I offered it because I have had the experience. There has been recent looks at taoist methods by kundalini practitioners; in particular, in the use of the front channel to bring the kundalini energy downward as a means to prevent problems. I used this method on my own in an emergency situation (not knowing that others were exploring it). I offered the method to phoenixrising because I suggested kundalini practice and I do not want this person to get hurt from it.
again, agreed - the tongue is a good way to "drain" excess build up in the head (I would say that, from a physiological perspective, it acts on the autonomics by increasing parasympathetic tone, aactivating it via the stomatognathic system); in fact, people have in the past come to my teacher having sent the kundalini up, but not having brought it back down, and having experienced things like aggitation, headaches, insomnia, etc., and he has worked with them along the lines that you describe; this is not a critique of kundalini practice, BTW, just relaying what my experience has been


I do not know if you have studied yoga or not. Much of the practice involves the straightening of the spine for the flow of kundalini energy
again, my classical yogic practice per se is minimal; in taoist practice, the spine is also held straight, but not rigid (which, i think many yogic practitioners do mistakenly - I don't believe that there is anything in correct yoga practice that advocates rigidity; in contrast, I've seen some qigong practitioners do equally strange things with the hips and pelvis); I think that the key is to understand the natural position of the spine, as a structural manifestation of liquid waveform properties, always in motion, allowing the head to ride ontop of it ike a ball supported on a column of water...

mickey
05-30-2007, 09:15 AM
Hello cjurakpt,

I never wrote anything about rigidity with the spine with yoga practice. With regard to the kundalini energy going up the spine, it is not uncommon. From what you have posted, it seems you have no personal experience with the kundalini energy beyond what you have observed and read. I have a feeling you will get there soon. :)


mickey

cjurakpt
05-30-2007, 09:32 AM
I never wrote anything about rigidity with the spine with yoga practice.
I know - please show me where I ever said or even implied that you did; even so, I think it's evident from my post that I do not believe that this is what correct yoga practice espouses; in my experience, some people have incorrectly interpreted this to be so, but again, I did not suggest this was the case with you



With regard to the kundalini energy going up the spine, it is not uncommon.
again, my experience with yoga is minimal, so I can only go by what I have seen / read in regards to that particular practice; so in my experience it is not something I have heard about, but again, I do not doubt the veracity of what you state


From what you have posted, it seems you have no personal experience with the kundalini energy beyond what you have observed and read.
well, then I guess that must be the case...


I have a feeling you will get there soon. :)
thanks for the prediction:rolleyes:

phoenixrising
05-31-2007, 10:12 AM
Mickey-

could you please reply to my last post on the previous page?

thanks

mickey
05-31-2007, 11:31 AM
Hello phoenixrising,

I am sorry for missing your question.

Mantak Chia's method seems to involve a visualization aspect that does not result in a physical manifestation. That is how it was for me with the Microcosmic Orbit (by the way, I took the seminar after reading the book). The way that I learned is that the energy is real. I cannot go into detail more than that. I actually experienced the energy going up my spine. It is no joke. If you are looking for instruction it would be improper to for me to do something like that through the internet. It requires the presence of an experienced practitioner. I will be getting back to this thread with more info for you. Right now, business beckons me.

mickey

cjurakpt
05-31-2007, 01:53 PM
Mickey is correct

in regards to Micro Orbit practice, this is absolutely not a process of visualization; the way in which this practice manifests, if done correctly, will occur without visualizing what is happening - it is a very real feeling that occurs and follows certain guidelines of behavior; the key phrase is "don't lead, don't hinder"; in other words, the temptation is to actually try to do something when you do or don't feel the process occuring - the key is awareness without fixation

and yes, this is not something to be attempted alone because there are issues of continuity that need to be followed (in other words, you can't just start it and stop it whenever you feel like - classically it's described as a 100 Days meditation; it took me somewhere around that much time, I don't remember exactly, it was over 10 years ago, I'd have to dig up my journal notes on it; after it's achieved, it then works into the Macro Cosmic Orbit, which includes the legs and arms; this one takes a bit longer...), and having the guidance of an experienced instructor is critical to tell you what to pay attention to and what not to pay too much attention to, such as when the energy gets "stuck" at certain places (Eight Qi Manifestations of tightness, itches, aches, vibration, sound, image, smell and cold), etc.



good luck in your search

TenTigers
05-31-2007, 02:21 PM
"Well, I don't believe that what you referred to is a Daoist technique. However, a proven scientific method for increasing "staying power" is to stimulate until near-ejaculation, then compressing the head and repeating this 5 times each time."


"tried that pinching/compressing thing to see how it was.

I will never do it again.

It hurt like you wouldn't believe and I'm not even speaking of the compression. The pain came from the muscles expelling very forcefully, but because it was closed off, they couldn't have their full range of motion and it felt like it was being ripped apart from the inside out."

ok, I think that the reason you hurt yourself could be that the above "Proven, scientific technique" is described incorrectly.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I have learned, you do not compress the head, but squeeze the BASE, as well as pressing in on the pernium (taint)while doing a male kegel manuever. (can be combined with picturing your grandmother naked)
If you compress the head, you would definately hurt yourself. If you tried to choke off urination by doing this, rather than with muscular contraction, it would cause extreme pain-heck, doing it with contraction hurts.
Check your sources.

phoenixrising
05-31-2007, 05:05 PM
thanks Mickey (and others)- the search continues!

mickey
06-01-2007, 04:25 AM
Greetings,

Here are some book suggestions for you:

Wheels of Light by Anodea Judith - The author writes about the 7 chakra system with much detail: a true yoga book.

The Kundalini Experience by Gopi Krishna- The title says it all.

Path Notes of an Amarican Ninja Master by Glenn J. Morris- The author's first kundalini experience still makes me laugh hard. The book is a nice look at another person's spiritual development. He passed away last year on April Fool's day. I find that incredibly appropriate and very, very, funny. You will understand when youu read his material.

Good Luck to you in your pursuit and in your practice.

mickey

PS: Mantak Chia's microcosmic orbit works more with the spiritual body (I guess that is a Taoist thing) and its development.

cjurakpt
06-01-2007, 12:23 PM
as it turns out, my teacher is giving a public class (uncommon for him) at a local NYC yoga school (Golden Bridge Yoga) in June; it's not micro orbit per se, but it might be of interest:

Medical Qigong: Alchemy of the Taoist yoga with Sat Hon
http://goldenbridgeyoganyc.com/?main_page=page&id=1

scroll down to the middle of the page for the seminar info

phoenixrising
06-01-2007, 04:37 PM
Thanks. Mickey, what did you think of the kundalini school I linked to? I live in LA, so the NYC seminar isn't likely at the moment.

I've already read Pathnotes and Morris' other books and enjoyed them. It seemed to me, however, that the way he followed was virtually the same as Chia's, which you don't seem to recommend. Also, are you suggesting I can learn the way to do it from the books recommended instead of instruction, or did you just put them there for interests sake?

mickey
06-01-2007, 04:38 PM
Yo TenTigers,


I do remember hearing a rhythmic series of blood curdling screams. Now I know it was you.


mickey

mickey
06-01-2007, 04:54 PM
Hi phoenixrising,

I looked at the site. All I remember about Yogi Bhajan is that he passed away one or two years ago. Since I have had no experience with him or his students, I cannot say yes or no.

Glenn Morris had his experience, if you remember, while watching an adult feature and doing "something." It was physical; though the after effects were physical, mental and spiritual. This guy did have doctorate's in psychology. So his representations may lean in the direction that you observed.

Do I believe that someone can experience kundalini through their own practice? Yes. Would I tell you to do that? Absolutely not. That would be irresponsible.

mickey

mickey
06-01-2007, 05:37 PM
phoenixrising,

I reread this post. I need to make a few clarifications. When I write about certain practices being physical, it is not to mean that there are no metaphysical aspects to the practice. It is that the use of visualization, in the Western sense, can create such a disconnect that there is no benefit to the practitioner. Visualization, in the Western sense, is a self contained mind trip to nowhere; there is no interaction between the mind and the body. People like Carl Jung have helped the Western model of consciousness move east.

In the Eastern sense, visualization is POWERFUL. It is the ability to effect change within yourself and in the world around you. That ability is an expression of the Divine essence that is within you. Needless to say, there is no disconnect here between mind and body. Even the term "visualization" falls short here. The person is simply DOING it.

So stuff like auras do exist even if you cannot sense them. People can still astral project and so forth. We are still the stuff that dreams are made of. :)

mickey

phoenixrising
06-03-2007, 07:59 PM
Mickey-

Thanks for your response. One thing I'm still not clear on, though, is whether or not the books you recommended would teach me to open the orbit or not?

mickey
06-04-2007, 08:37 PM
phoenixrising,

I only recommend them guide posts and nothing more. You need to be prepared for your future experiences. I see you want to go it alone. Learn as much as you can so you can be fully prepared for your awakening (gosh, I am so concerned for your wellbeing, I am repeating myself).

Have you ever experienced reiki?

mickey

phoenixrising
06-04-2007, 08:57 PM
I am a level 2 in Reiki, got it around 6 years ago, don't do much with it anymore.

mickey
06-05-2007, 06:17 AM
phoenixrising,

You can use the reiki energy to open your circuits to whatever energy system you desire. Ask and it shall be given.


mickey

phoenixrising
06-05-2007, 10:54 AM
Can you elaborate, more specifically, on that?

Also, you said two posts ago that 'I want to go it alone.' That is not necessarily true, I just don't know of any trustworthy teachers in Los Angeles.

mickey
06-05-2007, 03:11 PM
Hi

You Reiki yourself. You simply ask for the energy to open up your channels and let the energy flow. It is that simple. From there, you work at getting it under conscious control.


mickey

phoenixrising
06-05-2007, 08:16 PM
OK, thanks.

mickey
06-06-2007, 08:29 AM
Hi,

Let me know how it goes.



mickey