Should you sign a contract for instruction?

[MartialDev]

Here is the original article (http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/should-you-sign-a-karate-contract/).

Opinions?

[Dragon Warrior]

If i am serious about training at a school then yes I would sign a contract.

[lkfmdc]

You can't have your cake and eat it to...... and the article has several false statements as well

"Curb Your Enthusiasm
The Contract is an irrevocable commitment to a full year of Karate instruction. Should you decide to quit training for any reason—injury, lack of interest, work and family obligations, et cetera—you will nevertheless be obligated to continue paying tuition until The Contract has expired."

FALSE - state law in several states (NY included) states that a medical excuse provided by a license medical professional is legal grounds to end a contract. In addition, relocation either of yourself or the school beyond certain radius is also grounds for ending the contract

As for stopping to go just because of your "lack of interest"? LOL, so you got a deal (contracts are always for REDUCED RATES) but you don't want to honor your end just because you are lazy?

A contract is TWO SIDED.....

"If you fail to honor this commitment, your delinquent account will be sent to a collection agency."

Yes, you're an adult, and if you agree to enter into a contract you should meet it... what are you? 12?

"The Contract allows your dojo to relocate itself ten miles away from its original location, replace its best instructors with bad ones, or shift class dates and times such that you cannot attend. Even if all these should come to pass, you will be required to submit your monthly payments until the term of The Contract is completed."

And if my aunt had a di ck she'd be my uncle? If you go to the wrong doctor, you might die on the operating table, so you should never seek medical help?

Most schools that use contracts are professional, they have large staff and they have lots of classes. I offer day and night, over 30 classes a week, when people say "I can't find time" it usually means "I am too lazy to come", that's REALITY

"Some people, such as Shotokan expert Rob Redmond, advise against signing any Karate contracts whatsoever."

Who is Rob Redmond? Does he run a school? Maybe he is that guy who can barely pay his rent and lives in his parent's basement but he's "proud not to be a sell out" :rolleyes:

"Yes, these contracts serve to indemnify the school against its own mismanagement, at the student’s expense."

Or, look at it this way, the protect a school against inconsiderate students who committ to a period of time, and then aren't adult enough to keep their word

"There aren’t many colleges or universities that accept tuition payments on a month-to-month basis."

BINGO!

Go to NYU and tell them you want to pay per class you attend and if you don't complete the semester you want a refund......

We keep turing adults into irresponsible infants in this society, time to man up and be an adult

[PangQuan]

If i am serious about training at a school then yes I would sign a contract.

ditto.

But then a lot of people who are already involved in martial arts for some time will know if the school is going to be of benefit to them.

providing its a pretty standard contract there is nothing wrong. its just a matter of course in todays world.

of course not all schools have them, the current school i am in is just 50 bucks a month, come as you please, and a waiver for injury/death.

of course its not high volume.

[laugarkuen]

The article is far to short and does not cover much ground. lkfmdc has pretty much said all I was going to say.

I can only add that no-one can force you to sign a contract and if they do it invalidates it.

If you want to train at a school that requires one then just read the bloody thing and sign it if you understand and agree to the terms.

Alot of schools are requiring contracts now as more martial arts classes become real businesses. Having a contract from the schools point of view means that money collection can be done by direct debit on a regular date with no unreasnable arguments and allow them to plan and operate their business more effectively.

It also should make people realize that they are making a commitment for a specified period of time and that if they want your experties, they must pay for them.

That said you should make sure you are happy with a class before signing a contract and I would be suspicious of any school that does not offer a trial period.

[Becca]

Most schools that use contracts are professional, they have large staff and they have lots of classes. I offer day and night, over 30 classes a week, when people say "I can't find time" it usually means "I am too lazy to come", that's REALITY

Too true. I have had a very hard time making it to my classes lately. I talked to my Sifu about it, and he has switched me over to either 1 half hour private class or the beginners classes that I can make. (Can't go back to intermediate untill I get the go-ahead due to loss of conditioning issues) He prefers I make the beginner's classes, but if it doesn't happen, I calla nd tell him, then go in for a private.

If you really want it, you'll find a way.

[golden arhat]

in a word
no

if a school wants to keep your business then the teachers should be up to scratch and you should be suitably impress the teachers should lead by example and if u dont want to come anymore it should be your loss not the schools

[lkfmdc]

in a word
no

if a school wants to keep your business then the teachers should be up to scratch and you should be suitably impress the teachers should lead by example and if u dont want to come anymore it should be your loss not the schools

OR.... maybe a sifu doesn't want to be bothered with a person who can't make any committment whatsoever to him?

Why should I spend several hours explaining a technique to you if tomorrow you decide you'd rather go on a picnic and never do kung fu again?

YOu just don't want to come anymore? Well, we paid our rent, we paid our staff, we showed up to teach the classes, we did all that so you could train, but you can't be bothered to get off your lazy butt so screw us?

[The Xia]

Most mcdojos I've seen, especially the giant moneymaking ones, are very fond of contracts. That doesn’t mean that all schools that use contracts are mcdojos though.

[The Xia]

OR.... maybe a sifu doesn't want to be bothered with a person who can't make any committment whatsoever to him?

Why should I spend several hours explaining a technique to you if tomorrow you decide you'd rather go on a picnic and never do kung fu again?

YOu just don't want to come anymore? Well, we paid our rent, we paid our staff, we showed up to teach the classes, we did all that so you could train, but you can't be bothered to get off your lazy butt so screw us?
Let’s say you get somebody who signs up for your school. Let’s say it’s a year contract. Let’s say that after a week he decides it’s not for him. Is it fair that he should pay for the year? I know I know, “He signed the contract.” :rolleyes:
But wouldn’t it be more logical for him just to have paid a fee at the beginning of the month and that's it. This way if he decides to leave after a week, he'll only be paying for the month. Hell, he is still paying for a month's worth of instruction when he only came to classes for a week. You make out on that deal. It seems grossly unfair to me that he pays a year's tuition for a week's worth of instruction.

[lkfmdc]

Let’s say you get somebody who signs up for your school. Let’s say it’s a year contract. Let’s say that after a week he decides it’s not for him. .

This is why Americans suck at everything, no work ethic. What can you learn in a week? For that matter, what can you learn in a month? Do you think great musicians learned their trade in a month? :rolleyes:

How about the idea of sticking out something even if it doesn't give you instant gratification? How about the idea of hard work? How about the idea of being an adult for lord's sake!



It seems grossly unfair to me that he pays a year's tuition for a week's worth of instruction.

What is "unfair" is that he isn't giving the instructor time to actually teach him something! If he, gasp, actually showed up for class for a couple of months maybe, gasp, he'd learn somethng and make some progress....

I want to be a doctor, but is there any way I can just try out medical school for a month?

[The Xia]

This is why Americans suck at everything, no work ethic. ?
So according to you, are all Americans who excel at anything are an anomaly? :rolleyes:

What can you learn in a week? For that matter, what can you learn in a month? Do you think great musicians learned their trade in a month? :rolleyes:
But how many people join martial arts schools to become great martial artists? Or how's about this, how many people really know what it takes to become a great martial artist? A lot of people that join martial arts schools drop out after a little while. Some find that martial arts, or that particular style or school, is not for them. I don't think it's fair to penalize them for it.

How about the idea of sticking out something even if it doesn't give you instant gratification? How about the idea of hard work? How about the idea of being an adult for lord's sake!
I don't see it as having anything to do with being an adult. You either like something or you don't. If you don't need to, why put hard work into something you don't like? Maybe that person prefers another style or school. Maybe he'll work hard at another style or school. Or maybe he just doesn't like martial arts.

What is "unfair" is that he isn't giving the instructor time to actually teach him something! If he, gasp, actually showed up for class for a couple of months maybe, gasp, he'd learn somethng and make some progress...
Once again, maybe martial arts, or that particular style or school, isn't for him.

I want to be a doctor, but is there any way I can just try out medical school for a month?
There are quite a few people (including myself) that feel the education system is a total wreck. So I don't think that the martial arts world should strive to emulate such a thing.

On a side note, do you really have to give a "thumbs down" to something just because you disagree with it? To me it comes off as antagonistic.

[laugarkuen]

I want to be a doctor, but is there any way I can just try out medical school for a month?

No but I'm sure you could do some college courses in anatomy or similar and then commit to 7 years (or however long it takes in America) training to be a doctor.

As I said before I have no problems with signing up for a contract but I would want to try out the place first for a few weeks. If they sign and decide to leave after a few more weeks then it is their problem.

[Black Jack II]

This is why Americans suck at everything, no work ethic.

Is that supposed to be sarcastic??

If not, nice way to rubber stamp such a absurd statement.

[lkfmdc]

I, like anyone who has been in the industry for a while, have seen so many bad clients that I understand the need to protect your interests. Sorry, there are a lot of irresponsible and childish people who can't make a simple committment, don't want to take any responsibility and want their mistakes to come out of your pocket.

Here are two classic examples

I have two options, you can join for a contract one year at $150 a month or you can joint open ended and cancel with 30 days notice anytime you want for $200 a month. Guy wanted to save money so he signed up for the contract. After 6 months he wanted to quit. I actually gave him an option. He paid $50 per month than those on open eneded, so if he paid me $600 (6 months he came at $50 less than an open eneded) I'd cancel him. That's still cheaper than the $900 left on his contract. He just wanted to cancel, not pay the difference. So he tried to avoid paying off the rest for a few months. Then he wanted to buy a house so he had to clear his credit report, so he had to pay the rest of the contract PLUS the collection charges.

even better

A woman was on an open ended and cancelled. HOwever, she had been kind of lazy and had only come a few times a month, so she tried to charge back on her credit card the 4 months SHE HAD ACTUALLY USED. I use written agreements even on open ended precisely for this sort of reason.

People need to be adults, but so few are.....

[golden arhat]

How about the idea of sticking out something even if it doesn't give you instant gratification? How about the idea of hard work? How about the idea of being an adult for lord's sake!




i know where ur coming from
but i tried sticking it out for 2 years with my old teacher and all he dd was take my money

i think u should probaby try to find a middle ground

[SanHeChuan]

Tuition at any university, is only for the semester, 4 months. You could try a semester as a Medical student, if you got into the school, and then quit.

I think contracts (In the context we are talking about) mostly serve to take advantage of new students who don't know what they are getting into. Instructors see it as the greater good, taking money from those who don't want to be there to support those who do. Contracts make good business sense, but taking money from someone who doesn't partake of your services, whether they are available or not, is morally objectionable to me.

It depends on how you use them, If a student only comes sporadically over the course of the year then he should pay for the whole year, not just the months he showed up. A student who doesn't want to be there anymore shouldn't have to pay, and the "Man up" argument isn't a very good one. :rolleyes:

Personally I've never had a problem with a contract. As an idealist I may be against them but on a practical level, you got to do what you got to do. Right now I'm on a 3 Three 3 year contract! :eek:

[Wong Ying Home]

I use a quarterly contract scheme with 30 days cancellation notice

[The Xia]

I, like anyone who has been in the industry for a while, have seen so many bad clients that I understand the need to protect your interests.
If you charge at the beginning of each month, your interests are protected if the person decides to leave.

ISorry, there are a lot of irresponsible and childish people who can't make a simple committment, don't want to take any responsibility and want their mistakes to come out of your pocket.
If you charge at the beginning of each month, nothing is coming out of your pocket. In fact, you are making out on the deal if the person leaves before the month is up. And once again, not everyone who drops out is childish. Martial arts are not for everybody and different people prefer different styles and schools.

People need to be adults, but so few are.....
Just because martial arts, or a certain style or school, isn't for someone doesn't mean that person isn't an adult.

[SPJ]

I run into a couple of interesting things;

1. gift card. you may give your friends the gift card for some MA lessons.

2. time sheet/attendance sheet. when you enroll a MA class, you may finish the classtime any way you want, meaning, no matter what reasons, you may not make it. you may come to class at later time if it is available, again. you paid for the class time/slots, you may finish the time slots any way you want in 5 years or more. talking about a commitment delayed and honored.

3. unused classtime transferrable. if you really dun want to do it period, you may give the time slot to a friend who will attend.

--

would not be a dream?! too good to be true.

:D :eek:

[PangQuan]

im a fan of the introductory contract. one trial/viewing

sign contract for 1-3 months. if you like it, then go for the year+ contract.

simple

[Mas Judt]

Contracts are fair. The risk an individual takes to open a school requires some mitigation in order to be able to manage the cashflow that allows for a good student experience.

It's good to live up to your obligations. I have no problem signing on the dotted line if i am committed to something.

[Fu-Pow]

Go to NYU and tell them you want to pay per class you attend and if you don't complete the semester you want a refund......


I think there is a problem with perceived value. People realize the value of college education...ie more earning potential. But the value of martial arts training is more ephemeral...its not as highly valued. Plus you have the charlatans out there that lower the perceived value even more. So you're always going to have people that are trying to chince there MA teachers. Not saying its right...

FP

[Oso]

as I sit here on the 30th sweating the rent check tomorrow because 30% of my student base hasn't paid yet....contracts are going to be a reality at my school before too long.

martial arts is all about commitment, if as student can't commit to being cognizant enough to write a check every month...then a contract is necessary.

[PangQuan]

as I sit here on the 30th sweating the rent check tomorrow because 30% of my student base hasn't paid yet....contracts are going to be a reality at my school before too long.

martial arts is all about commitment, if as student can't commit to being cognizant enough to write a check every month...then a contract is necessary.

they are just lucky you accept checks! :eek:

[TenTigers]

I have trouble wrapping my brain around why people think it's perfectly ok to rip off MA instructors. You always hear,"I didn't come in for two weeks,month,etc. do I still have to pay?" or."We're going on vacation for two weeks, etc"
Yet, you wouldn't DREAM of saying,
"I didn't drive this week, so I won't be making a full car payment"
"We're going on vacation, so we won't pay the mortgage"
"I didn't eat the peas and carrots, so could you take that off the bill?"
"I know I ordered the fillet, but after I ate some of it, I decided to go for pizza. Can I have my money back?"
Perhaps I can tell my landlord, or the utilities company the same thing.

[NJM]

I can see why some instructors need to, but it really depends on how much morality the instructor must give up in order to make enough money, and what morals they are able to set aside to do so.

[TenTigers]

Why is it the instructor's morality the issue, and not the morality of the student?
I can understand if the instructor is teaching McKwoon crapola, but if he is teaching a good class, good system,good curriculum, etc, then his morality is not in question.

[The Xia]

I have trouble wrapping my brain around why people think it's perfectly ok to rip off MA instructors. You always hear,"I didn't come in for two weeks,month,etc. do I still have to pay?" or."We're going on vacation for two weeks, etc"
Yet, you wouldn't DREAM of saying,
"I didn't drive this week, so I won't be making a full car payment"
"We're going on vacation, so we won't pay the mortgage"
"I didn't eat the peas and carrots, so could you take that off the bill?"
"I know I ordered the fillet, but after I ate some of it, I decided to go for pizza. Can I have my money back?"
Perhaps I can tell my landlord, or the utilities company the same thing.
I think you are talking about something else. Like if the student doesn't want to pay because he didn't attend classes. Is that what you are saying? If so, that problem is solved by collecting payment at the beginning of the month. If he doesn't show up for classes that month, you still get paid.

[PangQuan]

i think you can break it down 2 ways.

money grubbers and martial arts instructors.

some people are just plain money grubbers. there always have been and always will be people willing to exploit just about anything to make a buck.

these are the guys you have to beware of.



then there are martial arts instructors. depending on several factors the instructor will have to make decisions. one of these decisions will be how to operate thier intruction. sometimes it will be a business, sometimes it will just be teaching. and sometimes you have the inbetween (which often times will be forced to go buisiness as they get more notice/students, as well as circumstances changing, or cut back to keep that small quaint home style instruction going)

for the instructor gearing towards the business aspect, a contract is an inevitability. put it off as long as you want. if you want to run a business and have clients who are expected to uphold a portion of a bargain, you need that shiznat in writing or you WILL get screwed.

business is business after all, and the current times will demand you run your business after a certain fassion if you want to be up to par with the times.

[BlueTravesty]

I think there should always be an option for month-to-month, albeit at a higher price- they don't know if you'll be back next month, and if you're not it will help cover expenses until you come back, or someone else joins. If you're willing to sign up for a contract, you should be given a lower price- they know you're putting in the time and effort, and aren't going to flake. Plus, if you've been there a while and you know your instructor pretty well, they might "freeze" your contract if you have to go out of town for a while, or are injured, and simply resume it when you get back.

The fact is, most Martial Arts instructors aren't out there to take your money, rubbing their hands with glee and laughing at your gullibility- there are much more profitable and less risky ways of doing that. And the ones that ARE money-hungry belt factory chain schools usually start out with a sincere desire to teach, which is likely how they got their classes so big to begin with. (Villari's, Tiger Schulmann, etc...)

What I hate is when you walk into an MA school, you listen to their pitch, their class looks fun and everything's going good. Then you ask how much instruction is, and they beat around the bush all day and keep trying to pitch you. Even if their intentions are good (unlikely, but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt since I've never run a school) it's annoying and shady.

[The Xia]

How will you get screwed if you charge on a monthly basis and collect payment at the beginning of each month?

[TenTigers]

because they bail out in june and july, and show up in November, or dissapear during Chinese New Year and saunter back in in March.
I don't charge tuition. I have a yearly membership,which is paid off on a monthly basis. You come, great. You don't come-doesn't matter, you bought a year membership. Period.
-oh, btw, when I say it doesn't matter, I am not talking about an indifference to my students. I am strictly speaking of finances.

[PangQuan]

How will you get screwed if you charge on a monthly basis and collect payment at the beginning of each month?

you wont.

this is how the class is that i currently attend. i like it very much.

but try doing that method with 20-30 adults AND 20-30 kids. it can be tough to keep your turnover rate of students to be level and not fluctuate like mad. granted that you COULD do that, if your trying to run a business and put bread on the table with it, it can be taxing. its much easier to make a contract and say "dont join if you dont like it" this way, you KNOW the people training at your facility are good for so much money.

it sucks having to turn people into walking numbers but thats the game of a financially lucrative business that rely's on long term client relationships.

a lot of contracts will keep the students there, or the cash coming. thats the ups and downs dealing with a business of any nature.

i would like to take this time to point out the fact im glad im just a student and not running a school. oi, talk about a head ache :p

[The Xia]

Having memberships, it sounds like your kwoon is more of a club then what is generally thought of as a school. I think those are two different ballgames. And I know the kind of students you are talking about. I think the fact that they come back shows that they want to train. I'd guess that the off-time time is because of career, school, or other obligations. I think this is a fact of modern life that martial artists have to deal with.

[Oso]

I think you are talking about something else. Like if the student doesn't want to pay because he didn't attend classes. Is that what you are saying? If so, that problem is solved by collecting payment at the beginning of the month. If he doesn't show up for classes that month, you still get paid.

yea, but in my case I have a number of people who don't get that when it's the '1st' of the month, it's time to pay for the classes they come to or bring their kids too.

I've got a ***** of a situation with a parent...he's been 5-10 days late with tuition for over 6 months now...i feel like I've got to tell him that Johnny can't come to class till he gets the tuition, and late fees, caught up. I hate it for the kid but I've done everything but beat this guy in the head with a stick. the last two months, he's not returned calls or anything.

[SanHeChuan]

Set 'em up on an automatic withdraw, and you shouldn't have to worry about collecting again. :cool:

[Oso]

Having memberships, it sounds like your kwoon is more of a club then what is generally thought of as a school. I think those are two different ballgames. And I know the kind of students you are talking about. I think the fact that they come back shows that they want to train. I'd guess that the off-time time is because of career, school, or other obligations. I think this is a fact of modern life that martial artists have to deal with.

but, you don't know. your hypothisizing when you aren't running a school...unless you are and I've missed it along the way.

when a student bails I pretty much know the reason...and generally, I try to give them much more face than I get in return.

if they bail because they don't like what I'm doing or how I'm teaching, I try to follow up to see if I can help them find a place that fits them...but those are rare That's not a comment on my ability, just that, at least IME, people tend to bail because:

#1 really learning a martial skill is harder than the fantasy.

#2 Ego. I've seen this manifest itself in many, many ways. Lately I've been dealing with people who are finding themselves threatened by newer students with more base attributes who catch on quicker. I hate trying to play 'guan psychoanalyst' when all I want to say is 'suck it up, train as hard as you can and be happy for your successes and don't judge yourself by anyone else's accomplishments'

[Oso]

Set 'em up on an automatic withdraw, and you should have to worry about collecting again. :cool:

right...but, at the moment, I can't even get that done because the fees would take me even more below breaking even...a lot of people are late but I usually collect everything by the 10th and repay myself for whatever I've put in out of pocket.

[MartialDev]

This is a very interesting discussion. I've never heard such a level of entitlement expressed by math instructors, English instructors, etc.

I can just imagine a Physics professor berating me after I decided to drop his class: Guess he wasn't man enough for thermodynamics. LOL.

[Oso]

This is a very interesting discussion. I've never heard such a level of entitlement expressed by math instructors, English instructors, etc.

I can just imagine a Physics professor berating me after I decided to drop his class: Guess he wasn't man enough for thermodynamics. LOL.

college teachers and professors draw a salary irregardless of student drops...they aren't the owners of the college...apples and oranges.

and where do you get 'entitlement' in this discussion? all I'm asking is that people who come to class, pay for class. if there is a drop, I pretty much can figure out why and if it's lazyness (physical or mental) then so be it but I'm not going to pat someone on the back but so much for quitting.

[SanHeChuan]

I'd charge more and get some contracts. :p

If, in the end, the constant stress of trying to run a school like your are is getting to you, it would be better to move to a more business format.

I've know people who have quit teaching for the bitterness of running a "buddy" school.

All you really need to teach is some students and space. You could do that in a park for free, but by charging money you are able to offer a better learning environment. So by charging more you should end up with a better facility.

If you think it wouldn't work in your neck of the woods, is there an ATA in your town? then it'll work. :p

[rogue]

A friend of mine who runs a dojo uses a contract and automatic withdrawal. The contract helps him keep a steady income especially during the down months of summer. The one thing he won't do is keep someone in the contract if they have a good reason for leaving but they have to ask him about it. If someone just drops out without talking with him he considers them still attending and so they get billed.
Seemed fair to me.

[Oso]

I'd charge more and get some contracts. :p

I charge $85 a month. The two closest schools charge $85 and $89. I've thought about going to $90 July 1 but if gas prices and food prices keep rising, and my competitors stay the same, I'll probably just need to stay where I am.

If, in the end, the constant stress of trying to run a school like your are is getting to you, it would be better to move to a more business format.

that's what I'm doing....slowly, granted, but still moving that way.

I've know people who have quit teaching for the bitterness of running a "buddy" school.

All you really need to teach is some students and space. You could do that in a park for free, but by charging money you are able to offer a better learning environment. So by charging more you should end up with a better facility.

If you think it wouldn't work in your neck of the woods, is there an ATA in your town? then it'll work. :p

there are 4...maybe 5 ATA or ITF schools within 5 miles. part of the problem is the density of ma schools in this town...there are 14, including me, within a 3 mile radius of the center of town. if you go out to 10 miles then you can add another 8-10 schools...you can only cut so many slices out of the same pie and everyone be sated....ok, i'm really tossing out some crappy metaphors...time to go to bed.

[rogue]

Boy, I still remember the good old days when rents were cheap and all karate schools were side jobs for the owners. I remember working for the same company as one of my sensei.

[The Xia]

but, you don't know. your hypothisizing when you aren't running a school...unless you are and I've missed it along the way.
when a student bails I pretty much know the reason...and generally, I try to give them much more face than I get in return.

if they bail because they don't like what I'm doing or how I'm teaching, I try to follow up to see if I can help them find a place that fits them...but those are rare That's not a comment on my ability, just that, at least IME, people tend to bail because:

#1 really learning a martial skill is harder than the fantasy.
dealing with people who are finding themselves threatened by newer students with more base attributes who catch on quicker. I hate trying to play 'guan
#2 Ego. I've seen this manifest itself in many, many ways. Lately I've been psychoanalyst' when all I want to say is 'suck it up, train as hard as you can and be happy for your successes and don't judge yourself by anyone else's accomplishments'
I was not talking about leaving for good. I was talking about students who come back after leaving for a few months or so.

yea, but in my case I have a number of people who don't get that when it's the '1st' of the month, it's time to pay for the classes they come to or bring their kids too.

I've got a ***** of a situation with a parent...he's been 5-10 days late with tuition for over 6 months now...i feel like I've got to tell him that Johnny can't come to class till he gets the tuition, and late fees, caught up. I hate it for the kid but I've done everything but beat this guy in the head with a stick. the last two months, he's not returned calls or anything.
I hear you. I realize that teachers with schools as their primary source of income need to put food on the table. I also realize, that like anyone else, they have the right to do well for themselves. However, like anyone else, there are greedy ones. I've seen mcdojos use contracts to rip people off. I'm not saying everyone who uses contracts is ripping people off. What I am saying is that I've seen contracts used to rip people off.

[Oso]

Boy, I still remember the good old days when rents were cheap and all karate schools were side jobs for the owners. I remember working for the same company as one of my sensei.

heh, rent ain't cheap...though it's still a side job.



I was not talking about leaving for good. I was talking about students who come back after leaving for a few months or so.

I rarely hear of anyone doing this and actually returning.

I hear you. I realize that teachers with schools as their primary source of income need to put food on the table. I also realize, that like anyone else, they have the right to do well for themselves. However, like anyone else, there are greedy ones. I've seen mcdojos use contracts to rip people off. I'm not saying everyone who uses contracts is ripping people off. What I am saying is that I've seen contracts used to rip people off.

well, that's pretty much a foregone conclusion in this, what eleventy-eleventh, thread on the subject?

[Becca]

Personally I've never had a problem with a contract. As an idealist I may be against them but on a practical level, you got to do what you got to do. Right now I'm on a 3 Three 3 year contract! :eek:
If my sifu were to give out one of those, you'd not only get a nice price break, but his full confidence in you making black belt. You can tell what Sifu is thinking about your staying power by the contract he offers you. one year is standard. 6 month is for those who have been around awhile, but not the most religious about showing up. 3 moth is for new students and kids who's parents aren't all that good at paying reliably.

I'm 99.9% certain my contract ran out last month, but sifu has not offered me another. I am to ranck test this month no mater what... I can see the writing on the wall and so can he. He thinks I'm going to quit 'cause I'm not making progress, and is hopping if I pass this test, I'll stay and if I don't pass, well...

[Indestructible]

right...but, at the moment, I can't even get that done because the fees would take me even more below breaking even...a lot of people are late but I usually collect everything by the 10th and repay myself for whatever I've put in out of pocket.

AAC has very reasonable fees for billing and no start up costs. $2 dollars for monthly statements and 50 to 25 cents for credit card or direct withdrawal though your bank account. They will provide you with contracts and billing agreements too.
Life has been much easier at my school with them. We spend more time teaching and don't have to fuss with collecting money.

http://www.affiliated.org/

[Mega-Foot]

Your contracts are weak. In order to study with Ashida Kim, I had to sign over all of my personal freedoms.

It was well worth it, and i demand it of all my acolytes.

[Oso]

AAC has very reasonable fees for billing and no start up costs. $2 dollars for monthly statements and 50 to 25 cents for credit card or direct withdrawal though your bank account. They will provide you with contracts and billing agreements too.
Life has been much easier at my school with them. We spend more time teaching and don't have to fuss with collecting money.

http://www.affiliated.org/

yea, I know...they are probably who I'll go with when the time comes...but, even though they are fairly cheap...tis that close a thing. :o

[The Xia]

I rarely hear of anyone doing this and actually returning.
Personally, I've seen it quite a few times.

well, that's pretty much a foregone conclusion in this, what eleventy-eleventh, thread on the subject?
What would the forum be left with if we can't discuss the same subject repeatedly? :p

[Flying-Monkey]

Wow.

i have to agree with Sifu Ross and Oso. I have known too many people in MA and other service based businesses complain about the same thing. MA is not an icecream shop. You can eat at the shop every friday with your family and then stop for two months then come back. This is not the same for MA. The skills you learn this month are the base of what you learn the next month. Having big gaps in your training does not help. Plus, it is annoying to the teacher. The student often comes back thinking he can start where he left off 6 months ago, even though he has not been training.

Having by month payments is a headache, but many schools offer it. People always pay late. The bills do not wait for these payments. It isn't easy to simplely say "You can't come back until your tuition is paid." You may lose that LATE payer permanently. And he still didn't pay. You are bending backwards to keep the half-ass and poor students. The problem is that it causes unneeded stress for the teacher.

With contracts, the ball is in the students hands. The classes are already paid for. All the student has to do is come and make an effort. MA is not a short term commitment. It is something that takes time to do. It is an art like music. You cannot pop in and out anytime you want. If you want someting like that, do Taebo.

Like I stated before, if you are not sure, don't sign a 1 year contract. A contract is a promise on paper. You promise to come, make an effort and PAY. The teacher promises to teach you and have that training spot and equipment available for you.

Sorry for this being so incoherent.

[Oso]

Personally, I've seen it quite a few times.

ok.


What would the forum be left with if we can't discuss the same subject repeatedly? :p

pretty much nothing.

[Oso]

FM, not any more incoherant than the rest of us. :)

[xcakid]

Was never a fan of a contract. As a businessman speaking, the are great. As a martial artist, I think they bite. I wouldn't want a student showing up cause he is obligated. I don't a student tainted in martial arts cause he was screwed by a contract, be it not being able to get out of it when he wants to, or some other reason.

I am a consultant currently. I am sometimes unemployed for a month or two till I can get another contract. Or sometimes I am sent outta town for months a time for a job. So contract will not work in my situation. My current school, does monthly. $125 a month include 1private lesson a week.

Back in the day when I was teaching (14+yrs ago so times have definitely changed) I only charged month to month. I would also supplement that with a 3+1. Meaning you pay for 3months up front, you get 4th month free.

My tuition would go as follow if I recall correctly that is. This was with USSD, please don't ban me for that:

Sign up was $50 (Uniform, belt and USSD handbook :()

$85 monthly unltd group classes
3+1 (3mos upfront get 4th month free)
$130 monthly unltd grp classes and 2 half hr private a month
$50 half hour private lesson if you buy it a la carte
$1500 Black Belt program. Half up front. Pays for all your lessons including privates and colored belt test up to Black. (This was with USSD so I was forced to have this program I never sold it. If someone asked I would tell them about it. My school probably was the lowest enrollment in this in SoCal back in the day.)

$30 belt test up to Brown II
$300 Black Belt test (This fee, 100% of it, went to USSD)

Out of that, I had to pay rent in the neighborhood of $5K a month. There was a group liaibility insurance with USSD, don't recall the amount but it was minimal. Utility came to about $100-200 a month. Plus franchise fee and buying those silly little USSD manuals. I believe we had to buy like 10 a month mandatory. So just handed it out with each sign up. I still have a box of those things.

You guys wouldn't believe the battles I had regarding belt testing, Black Blet progs etc. since I did not believe in them. So 2 yrs later, I sold my school back to USSD and quit teaching. Have had a sour taste in my mouth since then with regards to the business aspect of owning your own MA.

I do enjoy teaching though. Looking forward to getting my black belt with my current style and helping out teach. Don't think I will ever own my own school again.

[Becca]

...I'm 99.9% certain my contract ran out last month, but sifu has not offered me another. I am to ranck test this month no mater what... I can see the writing on the wall and so can he. He thinks I'm going to quit 'cause I'm not making progress, and is hopping if I pass this test, I'll stay and if I don't pass, well...
now 100% my contract expired, as sifu hit me up for a new, albeit very flexable, contract last night after my son's class.:D and it went up for the first time in 5 years... was $30/wk for me and my son, now $37.50/wk. In that same time, gas when up well more than a dollar a gallon, and my Xcel bill doubled... makes me wonder how Sifu makes ends-meet, as this is his only job...


Kung fu contracts are like cell phone contracts. If you don't want the contract, go find a company/sifu who doesn't require them and shut up about being charged out the nose...

[Oso]

~150/month for two people is good, imo/ime.

that's exactly what it would cost for two family members at my school.

85 for one for 1 month

150 for two for 1 month

195 for three for 1 month


if paying quarterly

225 for one for 3 months

330 for two for 3 months

405 for three for 3 months

[xcakid]

~150/month for two people is good, imo/ime.

that's exactly what it would cost for two family members at my school.

85 for one for 1 month

150 for two for 1 month

195 for three for 1 month


if paying quarterly

225 for one for 3 months

330 for two for 3 months

405 for three for 3 months

That's pretty darn tootin reasonable!! Now if you can show me the Dim-Mak. I would sign up in a heartbeat. :D

But seriously, that looks like a great tuition plan.

[Oso]

dim mak or 'death touch' in 3 simple lessons:

1 - smack their head into the concrete really, really hard as many times as you can.

2 - twist their head violently in a full 360 degree manner, continue twisting as necessary or indicated by continued respiration

3 - crush/rip/tear/compress the larnyx for 6-8 minutes, again, as long as indicated by continued respiration.

pretty easy, really.

[xcakid]

dim mak or 'death touch' in 3 simple lessons:

1 - smack their head into the concrete really, really hard as many times as you can.

2 - twist their head violently in a full 360 degree manner, continue twisting as necessary or indicated by continued respiration

3 - crush/rip/tear/compress the larnyx for 6-8 minutes, again, as long as indicated by continued respiration.

pretty easy, really.

Cool!! What time is class on Monday. :D

[Rhapsody Rain]

Even in the case of an injury, some contracts for martial arts schools are charging the full amount without the student actually receiving any lessons whatsoever.

Read the fine print......

it's all about the money......

[BruceSteveRoy]

i would question the legality of a contract like that. there is a world of difference between not wanting to continue and not being able to. i know my jiu jitsu school will suspend a contract if a person has a note from a doctor stating that he/she is injured and can't continue for x number of days/weeks/months. when that time comes they will reinstate the contract. but if i go in a say i hurt myself they can't do anything without a doctors note. thats only fair to them. too many people would try to weasel out of their commitment just bc they get little bumps and bruises. bc somehow ppl are surprised to learn they get knocked around in a school that is training them to fight/defend themselves. its probably a state by state thing regarding contracts but i have never heard of a MA school that does not have a stipulation regaurding both relocation of the student or injury.

[lkfmdc]

Even in the case of an injury, some contracts for martial arts schools are charging the full amount without the student actually receiving any lessons whatsoever.

Read the fine print......

it's all about the money......


MOST state lawas make that illegal.....

However, I can't tell you how many people have claimed a "serious injury" to get out of a payment (usually once they haven't paid several months and owe a lot already) and CLAIM they have a doctor's note but can't seem to produce it :rolleyes:

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Even in the case of an injury, some contracts for martial arts schools are charging the full amount without the student actually receiving any lessons whatsoever.

Read the fine print......

it's all about the money......

That can't be legal and I doubt anyone even attempts anything like that.

In NY, the student can MOST TIMES be released from their contract if the injury procludes them from using the facility for a period of six months or more. Any amount of time less than that, and the membership can/may be frozen.

My advice to school owners is that you freeze a students membership for less than six months, injury, school, etc. HOWEVER, you only freeze time; the student still makes their required monthly payments on time. You may add the time that they were out, to the end of their agreement. I.E., if they had a 12 month agreement and were not able to attend months 10 and 11, but came back in month 12, they would complete their payments at this time, BUT they would still get month 13 and 14 to train for free (alreay paid).

This is a good method for everyone, and doesn't put the school owner in a lurch if 5 people decide to get injured and/or go away for the entire summer.

"Time can be held and added to your membership Mrs. Smith, but you still will be making your monthly payments as scheduled."

Hope this helps....someone!

[lkfmdc]

Can I add a funny side to all this?

Considering how we train (and what we train) in my gym, I always find it funny that students get injured doing something stupid on the OUTSIDE :eek:

[Shaolinlueb]

I am with tentigers and lkfdmc on this one

you are signing up for a commitment. you pay to use my facility and my knowledge.

ten tigets anology about driving and rent are great.

it protects our interests as an instructor, and allows us to pay the rent, pay the bills, so you can keep learning.

if a student runs into an instructor where that all they do is bleed you for money, i suggest that you get out of it as soon as possible.

i allow a 30 day cancelation notice with 1 month tuition. so they can cancel if they pay me 1 month extra tuition. I run the contracts 6 months at a time.

some guy called me and asked if i could wave the 1 time sign up fee. i was like no. he said thank you and goodbye. we have so many mcdojo's around me that they have 100 dollars renewal fee every 6 months. He wont find a school that will wave it. I am already the most resonably priced school around.

if a student needs to take a month off because they hurt themselves or something and they let me know, ok i put account on freeze i call them in a month. if they dont tell me, i just add it to their tab. if they call me saying oh i wasnt there, like ten tigers said, if i dont drive my car, do i have to pay for it?

People are cheap, they dont want to pay for anything either.

if you like what you are learning then there shouldnt be a problem with signing a contract.

[MasterKiller]

I almost had to shut down this month because 9 of my 12 students didn't come in December. I ate practically a full month's expenses and actually packed up my mats to shut down, but the guy I rent from cut me a deal to keep things going.

Of course, when students started coming back this month they were all shocked that everything was packed up. :rolleyes:

So, I raised my rates and discontinued per-class rates and discounts for people that couldn't come in regularly. Now, everyone pays full-price, even if they only come once a month. If I had a larger facility and was running more classes, contracts would be mandatory.

[Shaolindynasty]

I like how contracts for martial arts are offensive to some peope but then they jump on their cell phone that requireda 2 year contract, and go to the health club which also requires a lengthy contract.

From an instructors point of view- I have done both withand without contracts. Without contracts i spent the first 2-3 weeks of each month chaseing my tuition payments. Some people actually came for class for 2 weeks and put off paying then disappeared. There are bills to be paid from our end. So for those of you who say its about the $$ you are right. Except instead of "getting rich or ripping people off" we are just trying to survive and possibly make a living

From a students point of view- the closest ive come to having a contract is paying quarterly which i had no problem with. I'd be at the school anyway. If you have problems commiting to 3-6months or even 1 year then you need to sit down and evaluate your goals then figure out how serious you are about attaining them.


Bottom line is YOU CHOOSE to sign a contract(which is also called an AGREEMENT) if you don't like the school you shouldnt have agreed to the terms. No sleazy salesman tactics can make you sign. Whatever happened to free will?

[Shaolinlueb]

I almost had to shut down this month because 9 of my 12 students didn't come in December. I ate practically a full month's expenses and actually packed up my mats to shut down, but the guy I rent from cut me a deal to keep things going.



I like how contracts for martial arts are offensive to some peope but then they jump on their cell phone that requireda 2 year contract, and go to the health club which also requires a lengthy contract.

From an instructors point of view- I have done both withand without contracts. Without contracts i spent the first 2-3 weeks of each month chaseing my tuition payments. Some people actually came for class for 2 weeks and put off paying then disappeared. There are bills to be paid from our end. So for those of you who say its about the $$ you are right. Except instead of "getting rich or ripping people off" we are just trying to survive and possibly make a living


and if people on here keep arguing this and dont understand our point of view as instructors, i think they can go buzz off.

MK your lucky your landlord cut you a deal. I have open asbestos in my basement and she is trying to argue with me she doesnt have to remove it cause its only in my contract as storage not usable space, but the basement is finished. she said if i remove it and you use it, i;m going to have to charge you more. I am done with my landlord.

[Oso]

MK your lucky your landlord cut you a deal. I have open asbestos in my basement and she is trying to argue with me she doesnt have to remove it cause its only in my contract as storage not usable space, but the basement is finished. she said if i remove it and you use it, i;m going to have to charge you more. I am done with my landlord.

were you made aware of the asbestos upon signing the lease?

[lkfmdc]

and if people on here keep arguing this and dont understand our point of view as instructors, i think they can go buzz off.

MK your lucky your landlord cut you a deal. I have open asbestos in my basement and she is trying to argue with me she doesnt have to remove it cause its only in my contract as storage not usable space, but the basement is finished. she said if i remove it and you use it, i;m going to have to charge you more. I am done with my landlord.

Don't you have a lawyer? You can also call the EPA about it.... landlords are reptiles and try to act like G'd until you get a lawyer or government official who can FINE involved, then they suddenly want to be "nice"

[Shaolinlueb]

yeah I am going to call the epa. or i might just leave and let her be stuck with the problem.

i had a student who was licensed and properly removes 90% of it. then he wouldnt call or return my calls.

[Oso]

yea, if she didn't give you a disclosure statement at the beginning of your lease, she could be very liable. Some asbestos is still ok (floor tile, tape and insulation on heating) to be in a 'usable space' as long as it is not disturbed.

if your student did not pull a permit to remove the asbestos that he did, and have the proper monitering done while removing it (if it was more than 2 or 3 square feet of material)...then you should drop the issue and just move because you and he could be liable as well.

ftr, I'm an LEA AHERA representative for asbestos management.

[yutyeesam]

Contracts are great, but they're a lot more relevant if you charge through EFT (electronic funds transfer) or autobill through credit card. Then your contract is taken more seriously.

Using the automatic payment method, I offer programs with and without contracts. The programs with contracts of course are a much better deal, so the vast majority of my students choose the contract.

But either way, it is autopay all the way. I refuse to take checks for tuition unless it is a PIF.

-123

[ngokfei]

The health club view of martial arts schools was very popular in the 90's but that is quickly fading.

As an educational institute is what the industry is pushing more towards. So with that it would be quite similar to lets say a college degree.

having 3 semesters a year and charging for that time period. when is the last time you have been able to receive a refund half way through your courses?

While this simplifies the act of collection Tuition, it requires the schools and their instructors to have solid educatinal skills plus having courses layed out in advance.

Instead of having a one year agreement, students select what level they want to achieve.

ex:

1 year (3 semesters) gives you a certificate for completion of the Ji Beng/Gei Bong.

2 year (6 semesters) gives you a ex: "Associates Degree"

3 year (9 semesters) gives you a ex: "Bachelors Degree"

etc.

very specific topics and amount of time/credits would have to be detailed.

A nice cross between Western Collegea nd the Trade School. Credits compared to hours of training (ie: police, fire department courses, etc.)

Physical Fitness, Traditional Foundations and Forms, Self Defense 1-3, Baton usage & defense, Knife Usage & defense, gymnastics/tumbling with Grappling, Kickboxing.

The Kuoshu Organization of the past had similar requirements in order to graduate.

Still Contracts are the only way to get the the bills paid (schoola nd personal)

[Jeffoo]

Health clubs and daycares don't allow month to month anymore either. You commit and if you choose not to go for any reason, that's your problem.

Since kung fu schools are a mix of both health club and daycare at times, I see no problem with contracts.

[Lucas]

my teacher goes on a month to month basis.

As far as I can tell, he couldnt care less if you show up or not. If you come, good. If you dont, who cares.

Month to month is just right for me. Show up, pop some cash to Sifu and train.

No contracts, No hidden fees, No testing Fees, No belts, No ranks. No bullsh!t.

me like

[ngokfei]

Does he pay rent? or is instruction done in a park or his basement?

[sanjuro_ronin]

The health club view of martial arts schools was very popular in the 90's but that is quickly fading.

As an educational institute is what the industry is pushing more towards. So with that it would be quite similar to lets say a college degree.

having 3 semesters a year and charging for that time period. when is the last time you have been able to receive a refund half way through your courses?

While this simplifies the act of collection Tuition, it requires the schools and their instructors to have solid educatinal skills plus having courses layed out in advance.

Instead of having a one year agreement, students select what level they want to achieve.

ex:

1 year (3 semesters) gives you a certificate for completion of the Ji Beng/Gei Bong.

2 year (6 semesters) gives you a ex: "Associates Degree"

3 year (9 semesters) gives you a ex: "Bachelors Degree"

etc.

very specific topics and amount of time/credits would have to be detailed.

A nice cross between Western Collegea nd the Trade School. Credits compared to hours of training (ie: police, fire department courses, etc.)

Physical Fitness, Traditional Foundations and Forms, Self Defense 1-3, Baton usage & defense, Knife Usage & defense, gymnastics/tumbling with Grappling, Kickboxing.

The Kuoshu Organization of the past had similar requirements in order to graduate.

Still Contracts are the only way to get the the bills paid (schoola nd personal)

Would love to charges as much as a local university :)
Typical 7K per semester, yee haw !!

[Lucas]

Does he pay rent? or is instruction done in a park or his basement?

he teaches in a nice big building down in chinatown. Not sure if he pays rent or not, though he has a good student base because he is a wealth of knowledge, enjoys to teach, and cares for his students well being.

the month to month basis works great for me. plus i think he has students who frequently travel as well, so this accomidation is wonderful as it allows one to come into town and recieve instruction for a few months, then leave, and return later to further the training.

[the Preacher]

I feel
there is NO Contract needed
if you have something to offer
people will come and happily pay

EX: Owner could
have the Participant
first Sign waiver of liability then

least expensive taste test
$10hr- Open Gym
can utilize equipment only-
no instruction
anyone at select hours only


Instructional Classes
first collect
Registration Fee: ($45) yearly
need a calendar showing billing cycle

"One Free Class"
"Free School T-Shirt"

monthly billing Ex
4hrs= $60
8hrs= $100
12hrs= $125
16hrs= $140
more hours = cheaper per hour

prorate first month
no make ups, no refunds
no checks
cash or credit/debit only

private lessons$50 hr

I think month by month is the best

its easy for someone to start or depart


if someone didn't want to be there ..why make them?

[lkfmdc]

1. go open a commercial gym, with a 5 year lease

2. implement your above plan

3. After 6 months, let us know if you have been evicted and/or are still in business

[diego]

my buddy did a year contract at a kickboxing club in north vancouver...you pay all the fees, but eventually the boss is like oh you want to learn elbows of muay thai, **** you pay me...you want advanced sparring **** you pay me...if you want to learn to spar you pay the contracts...if you want to learn to fight you gotta pay all these backdoor seceret fees...he was miffed as a streetfighter knowing he could dummy most in the gym...eventually he was sparring with one of the guys in class and messed up an axe kick throwing out his knee for a good three months...a week after he hurt hiumself and told the boss he'd have to quit cuz surgery is in a few months, the gym owner tried to cash all the checks...like 6 months worth...that is just lame...i don't care if you don't like the guy how you gonna claim 6 monthsd pay for something you haven't even done yet...

[the Preacher]

1. go open a commercial gym, with a 5 year lease

2. implement your above plan

3. After 6 months, let us know if you have been evicted and/or are still in business



after 9 years
I think it works great

[Lama Pai Sifu]

after 9 years
I think it works great

I wonder if you wouldn't mind indulging me with answers to a few questions?

1. How are you keeping track of their 'hours' as to adjust their monthly billing?

2. Why don't you take checks?

3. With no contract, what method of cancellation do you use?

4. How do people pay thier tuition?

5. Do you have discounts for paid in full memberships?

6. What equipment do you have that people are willing to pay $10 an hour to use? (I ask because I train at a gym that costs $12 Mil to build and it's only $49 per month. They have a basketball court, sauna, jacuzzi, pool, 300 pieces or cardio equip..etc.)

7. How many members do you have?

8. What is your rent and square footage?

9. How many employees? (Part time/Full time)

10. How many classes per week?

11. Do you teach kids? And what do you teach by the way??

Very curious as your explanations of what you already do are so very much against the grain of any successful school/gym model.

Peace

[lkfmdc]

after 9 years
I think it works great

what is the name of your school and where is it located? web page?

[the Preacher]

I wonder if you wouldn't mind indulging me with answers to a few questions?
SURE,


1. How are you keeping track of their 'hours' as to adjust their monthly billing?
each student prepays for their desired hours each month,
then just check off when they come

2. Why don't you take checks?
NSF

3. With no contract, what method of cancellation do you use?
cancellation for what

4. How do people pay thier tuition?
most people I suppose have to work?

5. Do you have discounts for paid in full memberships?
No discount No membership only month by month

6. What equipment do you have that people are willing to pay $10 an hour to use? (I ask because I train at a gym that costs $12 Mil to build and it's only $49 per month. They have a basketball court, sauna, jacuzzi, pool, 300 pieces or cardio equip..etc.)
sport specific


7. How many members do you have?
usually around 250, each month is different

8. What is your rent and square footage?
too much 8586sqft just under $10,000

9. How many employees? (Part time/Full time)
7 part time


10. How many classes per week?
6-7 each day

11. Do you teach kids? And what do you teach by the way??
yes only kids, an Olympic Sport.


Peace

[lkfmdc]

where is this? what is the name of this place? web site?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

SURE,


1. How are you keeping track of their 'hours' as to adjust their monthly billing?
each student prepays for their desired hours each month,
then just check off when they come

2. Why don't you take checks?
NSF

3. With no contract, what method of cancellation do you use?
cancellation for what

4. How do people pay thier tuition?
most people I suppose have to work?

5. Do you have discounts for paid in full memberships?
No discount No membership only month by month

6. What equipment do you have that people are willing to pay $10 an hour to use? (I ask because I train at a gym that costs $12 Mil to build and it's only $49 per month. They have a basketball court, sauna, jacuzzi, pool, 300 pieces or cardio equip..etc.)
sport specific


7. How many members do you have?
usually around 250, each month is different

8. What is your rent and square footage?
too much 8586sqft just under $10,000

9. How many employees? (Part time/Full time)
7 part time


10. How many classes per week?
6-7 each day

11. Do you teach kids? And what do you teach by the way??
yes only kids, an Olympic Sport.


Peace


Thanks for your answers, I really appreciate it. Just a few more if you wouldn't mind..

1. How many new members do you enroll each month (on average) or annually?

Let me rephrase some of the others.

2. How do people pay their tuition? What method, i.e., in house, billing company, your own billing software, etc. Do they pay by cash or credit card each month, as you do not take checks.

3. What is "sport specific" equipment. I don't understand your answer.

4. Regarding cancellation, what term does a person enroll for? Month to month? This goes back to question 2 of this post. I'm asking how people pay each month - physically. Do they just bring it over to the front desk? If you have billing software or a billing company, and you do month to month, you have to have time to cancel thier next payment if you use an outside company or you have to cancel it within your own billing software.

5. Do you make at least $60,000 per month? I'll explain this question later and as to why I use that number. Feel free to share your monthly or annual gross income stats (if you are okay with it)

6. What is your average monthly merchandise sales?

Thanks again!

[the Preacher]

Thanks for your answers, I really appreciate it. Just a few more if you wouldn't mind..


1. How many new members do you enroll each month (on average) or annually?
? its a revolving door, I don't really keep track

Let me rephrase some of the others.

2. How do people pay their tuition? What method, i.e., in house, billing company, your own billing software, etc. Do they pay by cash or credit card each month, as you do not take checks.
cash or credit, in house

3. What is "sport specific" equipment. I don't understand your answer.
Sport Specific=certain sports require special equipment, this equipment could be considered sport specific


4. Regarding cancellation, what term does a person enroll for? Month to month? This goes back to question 2 of this post. I'm asking how people pay each month - physically. Do they just bring it over to the front desk? If you have billing software or a billing company, and you do month to month, you have to have time to cancel thier next payment if you use an outside company or you have to cancel it within your own billing software.
each individual must prepay at the front desk each month


5. Do you make at least $60,000 per month? I'll explain this question later and as to why I use that number. Feel free to share your monthly or annual gross income stats (if you are okay with it)
just put an "x" , "y" or "z" in your formula

6. What is your average monthly merchandise sales?
Minimal merchandise

Thanks again!

[lkfmdc]

is there a reason you're avoiding telling us what this place is called, where it is and whether it has a web page?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

1. How many new members do you enroll each month (on average) or annually?
? its a revolving door, I don't really keep track

Let me rephrase some of the others.

2. How do people pay their tuition? What method, i.e., in house, billing company, your own billing software, etc. Do they pay by cash or credit card each month, as you do not take checks.
cash or credit, in house

3. What is "sport specific" equipment. I don't understand your answer.
Sport Specific=certain sports require special equipment, this equipment could be considered sport specific


4. Regarding cancellation, what term does a person enroll for? Month to month? This goes back to question 2 of this post. I'm asking how people pay each month - physically. Do they just bring it over to the front desk? If you have billing software or a billing company, and you do month to month, you have to have time to cancel thier next payment if you use an outside company or you have to cancel it within your own billing software.
each individual must prepay at the front desk each month


5. Do you make at least $60,000 per month? I'll explain this question later and as to why I use that number. Feel free to share your monthly or annual gross income stats (if you are okay with it)
just put an "x" , "y" or "z" in your formula

6. What is your average monthly merchandise sales?
Minimal merchandise

Thanks again!


Again, thanks for your answers. I still am a little confused by what you are saying.

1. What equipment do you actually have? 'Sport Specific' is quite a general term, can you be 'more' specific please?

2. How do you know the number of people that are paying you each month if you are not keeping track of new enrollments? Are you suggesting that the only way you look at is that; you have no members, but 250 new people sign up every month?

3. Do you make at least $60,000 per month in gross sales?
(X, Y and Z arent' really necessary to answer this.)

4. Collecting payments from 250 members each month is a daunting and ardurous task, is there a reason you chose NOT to do it automatically or electronicly?

5. You said that each member must 'pre-pay' at the desk. What day of the month do they do this?

Please continue to humor me.

Name of your gym and website would be helpful as well. :)

I know it was already asked for, but you haven't put it up yet.

[the Preacher]

Again, thanks for your answers. I still am a little confused by what you are saying.
Its OK, I understand.

1. What equipment do you actually have? 'Sport Specific' is quite a general term, can you be 'more' specific please?
......you don't understand the concept?


2. How do you know the number of people that are paying you each month if you are not keeping track of new enrollments? Are you suggesting that the only way you look at is that; you have no members, but 250 new people sign up every month?
kind of like that, Yes, month by month



3. Do you make at least $60,000 per month in gross sales?
(X, Y and Z arent' really necessary to answer this.)
and if I did, or if I didn't?


4. Collecting payments from 250 members each month is a daunting and ardurous task, is there a reason you chose NOT to do it automatically or electronicly?
It's not hard, its easy!

5. You said that each member must 'pre-pay' at the desk. What day of the month do they do this?
they pay on their first class of each month


Please continue to humor me.
sounds pretty condescending ....don't you think?
but OK
does your face hurt? it's killing me!
hahahahahahaha
hows that?

Name of your gym and website would be helpful as well. :)
helpful? why?

[KFNOOB]

Preacher:

Lama Pai Sifu is asking legitimate questions because you brought up how you do business and it sparked curiosity.

LKFMDC-----dont mind him. He's just a troll and an idiot. Eventually he will suck you into talking about HIM. Guy has huge ego and is completely delusional.

Plenty of schools do not use contracts, plenty do. The trend is towards no contracts especially as MMA keeps growing. I do think, in places like NY, it must be much harder to do business without contracts due to high rent and competition. Smaller towns it's probably more viable.

I'd love to buy a few schools that turn out fighters. I wonder where I can find them. I'll contact a business broker I guess.

[IronWeasel]

just put an "x" , "y" or "z" in your formula


Okay...I pick 'X'.

Now how much do you make?:rolleyes:

[IronWeasel]

Please continue to humor me.
sounds pretty condescending ....don't you think?
but OK
does your face hurt? it's killing me!
hahahahahahaha
hows that?





And THERE you have it...
:p

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Its OK, I understand.

1. What equipment do you actually have? 'Sport Specific' is quite a general term, can you be 'more' specific please?
......you don't understand the concept?


2. How do you know the number of people that are paying you each month if you are not keeping track of new enrollments? Are you suggesting that the only way you look at is that; you have no members, but 250 new people sign up every month?
kind of like that, Yes, month by month



3. Do you make at least $60,000 per month in gross sales?
(X, Y and Z arent' really necessary to answer this.)
and if I did, or if I didn't?


4. Collecting payments from 250 members each month is a daunting and ardurous task, is there a reason you chose NOT to do it automatically or electronicly?
It's not hard, its easy!

5. You said that each member must 'pre-pay' at the desk. What day of the month do they do this?
they pay on their first class of each month


Please continue to humor me.
sounds pretty condescending ....don't you think?
but OK
does your face hurt? it's killing me!
hahahahahahaha
hows that?

Name of your gym and website would be helpful as well. :)
helpful? why?


Now you are being a bit jerky. You made some very unusual claims at to how you run your business, I've been very polite in my inquiries.

Frankly, some of the things you are saying just don't seem to add up. With a $10,000 per month rent and at the prices you are quoting, your rent would be equivalent to at least half of your gross income. That just doesn't make any sense. Even if your rent is 40% of your gross income, it just wouldn't fly, you coudn't stay in business.

The fact that you are being incredibly evasive about simple questions like "What kind of equipment do you have in your gym" leads me to believe that your are not being honest or you have completely fabricated your end of this discussion.

[lkfmdc]

hmmmmmm..... three times he "ignores" a simple rquest for the name of the business, where it is located and if it has a web site

his "answers" to Mike are so general and vague

my guess, NO SUCH BUSINESS EXISTS

the most obvious clue, where could he find an almost 9000 sq ft place for less than $10,000 a month?

"preacher" is full of it.....

[KFNOOB]

Gotta agree. I dont think anyone with 10,000 square feet in any business can run things so haphazardly. Some real small schools with very low rent may do so. Are we talking a YMCA or something like that? Renting space from a gym?

[The Willow Sword]

They are STOOPID and serve no real purpose other than to get you hoodwinked into a financial agreement that could siphon you out of your hard earned dollar.

If anything you should sign a WAIVER agreeing that you wont SUE your instructor or fellow students should you get your block knocked off. Of course there should be some stipulations that states that the instructors are trained in first aid and how to deal with someone who is knocked out or injured etc etc. i feel that ALL teachers and STUDENTS should go through a first aid course and CPR training.

Also if there is to be any financial agreement between student and instructor it should be very BASIC, as in I (place name here) Agree to pay tuition fees for the months that i train, and that my tuition is on a month to month basis.

If you run a good school with quality instruction and your instructor is not a egotistical douche wad then i think the turn over rate would not be as bad,therefore you make your $$ and you impart your teaching and wisdom on the student in a good way.

Peace,TWS

[Fox]

They are STOOPID and serve no real purpose other than to get you hoodwinked into a financial agreement that could siphon you out of your hard earned dollar.

If anything you should sign a WAIVER agreeing that you wont SUE your instructor or fellow students should you get your block knocked off. Of course there should be some stipulations that states that the instructors are trained in first aid and how to deal with someone who is knocked out or injured etc etc. i feel that ALL teachers and STUDENTS should go through a first aid course and CPR training.

Also if there is to be any financial agreement between student and instructor it should be very BASIC, as in I (place name here) Agree to pay tuition fees for the months that i train, and that my tuition is on a month to month basis.

If you run a good school with quality instruction and your instructor is not a egotistical douche wad then i think the turn over rate would not be as bad,therefore you make your $$ and you impart your teaching and wisdom on the student in a good way.

Peace,TWS


I agree, I have a month to month rate as well as a daily rate. Some have conflicts due to work, family as well as other things.

[David Jamieson]

hmmmmn.

well, I don't think it's a big deal if sears doesn't wanna tell wal-mart how they do business. I don't think it should be a big deal if someone here who sells kungfu or tkd lessons doesn't wanna tell someone else who sells martial arts how they do business.

There's a lot of different business models out there. Many companies that generate quite a lot of money also do it by the seat of their pants.

not saying that this is teh good way to do it or the bad, just saying that people make money the way they make money and that's a million different ways.

[lkfmdc]

Sears will tell you the name of their store, where they are located and send you to their web site.....

"I own one of the worlds largest car manufactoring company, but I won't tell which one, where it is located or if we have a web site"

Again, he claims to have a 9000 sq ft facility which he pays less than $10,000 in rent. There is no major market where you can find this rent. So where is he located? Pretty simple question, doesn't give away any "trade secrets" does it?

Simple answer, IT DOES NOT EXIST

[Lama Pai Sifu]

It's a never ending debate: students want to enroll with no commitment, Instructors want a committment.

If I could get a lease with no committment, a car, a house, etc., I wouldn't mind students paying month to month. But try to lease a space by the month (unless it's crap wharehouse space) or lease a car month to month or obtain financing for a house month to month...it won't happen.

No one would committ if they didn't have to. Fact is, instructors who run full time commercial schools need committments from students as they have in turn made committments to landlords, banks, etc.

[Fox]

I agree. I rent month to month. I do not do it fulltime. I make only what it cost to pay rent utilities ect.... I teach for the love of teaching. I am also going for my time and grade so to speak. I WANT MY 6th dan..:D

[the Preacher]

...... instructors are trained in first aid and how to deal with someone who is knocked out or injured etc etc. i feel that ALL teachers and STUDENTS should go through a first aid course and CPR training.
Peace,TWS

I used to think that too, but no longer
now being trained EMT/CPR creates a certain personal liability,
I recommend Not, call 911 if you need.

[lkfmdc]

Trolling.......

and he's just a new screen name for an already banned person :rolleyes:

[GeneChing]

There are several threads on contracts. I just posted here as this was a longer one.


Manville woman wants child's lessons refunded (http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf/2012/03/manville_woman_wants_childs_le.html)
Published: Monday, March 26, 2012, 6:12 AM
Karin Price Mueller/The Star-Ledger By Karin Price Mueller/The Star-Ledger

Dana Roberts is taking a karate chop to the wallet.

The Manville mom of three young children is fighting to get a refund from Somerville Martial Arts Academy for lessons she said she never really wanted, but was pushed into accepting.

In May 2011, Roberts signed up her daughter Elizabeth, 7, for lessons. She signed a contract and paid $820 for 50 lessons to be used anytime between May and December, she said.

When that session ended in mid-December, Roberts said, instructor Kyle Freeman called to see about signing up again.

"I told him that I really couldn’t sign her up again right now. I have three kids and my husband is on a deployment to Afghanistan," she said. "I tried to explain that it’s too much for me to bring my 7-year-old twice a week to lessons and sit there with a 4-year-old and 1-year-old."

Roberts said Freeman gave her the hard sell, but she explained she also was returning to school in January and didn’t think she’d have the time.

Freeman kept coming up with suggestions on how to get Elizabeth there for lessons, Roberts said.

"I have three kids who were trying to get my attention and I was trying to get off the phone with him," she said. "I honestly felt bullied into signing my daughter up again."

Roberts said she finally gave Freeman her credit card number but she did not sign another contract. Lessons would restart in January 2012.

At the end of December, Roberts’ husband, Anthony, came home for a two-week leave from his New Jersey Army National Guard duty, and the couple discussed the lessons. They agreed Dana Roberts’ schedule would be too hectic, so they decided to cancel them.

Anthony Roberts called the studio several times in the beginning of January and left messages. No one returned his calls. He e-mailed the studio on Jan. 9, explaining that Elizabeth would be withdrawing from lessons and asking someone to respond so they could discuss a refund.

Again, they didn’t hear back.

Later, the company returned a separate e-mail regarding a military program that might reimburse the couple for the cost of lessons, but a refund wasn’t discussed.

And then a $456 charge appeared on Roberts’ credit card. She disputed the charge, but when Somerville Martial Arts provided a copy of the contract Roberts signed in May 2011 to the credit card company, the charge was reinstated.

She said she didn’t understand why no one from the studio contacted her to discuss the dispute. By then, the studio must have known she was trying to ask for a refund, she said.

The couple then turned to the military’s legal services, but the attorney said there was nothing he could do.

"I e-mailed them (Somerville Martial Arts) and asked them for a copy of this contract. They ignored that request," she said. "I went to talk to them personally on March 2, 2012."

The parties had a dispute, but eventually, Roberts was given a copy of the contract.

"They believe they have no legal reason to return any of my money. They also don’t believe they had any legal or ethical reason to contact me," Roberts said. "It’s hard enough being a single parent for the year my husband is deployed. I’m not working, so this was a lot of money that we put out for lessons we do not wish to take and that I felt bullied into agreeing to."

She turned to Bamboozled for help.

‘I don’t bully’

There are no typed dates on the contract, but written by hand, it says: "50 classes pd in full."

The contract also says: "There will be no refunds of amounts paid to SMAA."

We reached out to Somerville Martial Arts and had a conference call with Freeman and owner Patrick Mehrtens.

Freeman said in no way did he give a hard sell to Roberts.

"I don’t use pressure sales. I don’t bully," Freeman said. "I take great offense to that."

Freeman said he was trying to help Roberts find a way for Elizabeth to continue.

We wanted to know why the Roberts’ messages were not returned.

Mehrtens said the studio was flooded after Tropical Storm Irene and there was a time it had no phone service. He also said he didn’t remember the Jan. 9 e-mail.

He offered to freeze the family’s account so Roberts’ husband or another child could take the lessons in the future.

But a refund was out of the question.

"For us to have a refund policy, that would really be a disservice to our ability to run the business," Mehrtens said. "If we do it once, we’ll be expected to do it over and over again."

BUT IS IT LEGAL?

We understand the challenges facing small-business owners, but we wondered if that contract would hold water (thank you, "My Cousin Vinny") in a courtroom.

We asked litigation attorney Timothy Dinan of Laddey, Clark & Ryan in Sparta to take a look at the case.

He said that by verbally agreeing to renew the contract without negotiating any new terms, Roberts agreed to continue the old contract with its provision for "no refunds." But, he said, she could argue in small claims court that she is entitled to a refund despite the contract language.

"First, Dana could argue the ‘no refund’ provision in the contract is a penalty," Dinan said. "Under New Jersey law, penalty provisions in contracts are not enforceable."

Second, she could raise the issue of unjust enrichment. For this, she’d have to show the studio received a benefit and keeping that benefit would be unjust — for example, if it was able to fill Elizabeth’s spot and was in fact compensated twice.

He said if a judge finds the "no refund" provision to be a penalty, the studio has an obligation to mitigate, or lessen, its damages, by finding a student to fill Elizabeth’s spot.

"It would be up to a judge to decide if the studio did in fact mitigate its damages and Dana could recover a portion of the $456 with this argument," he said.

Finally, Roberts may have a claim under the New Jersey Consumer Fraud Act, which regulates health club contracts, Dinan said. A judge would have to decide whether or not the studio is a health club under the act, then decide if the contract complies with the requirements of the act.

"The lesson Dana had to learn the hard way is how important it is to know what you are agreeing to before you sign a contract or provide a company with your credit card number," he said.

It’s a lesson all consumers should consider before putting their signature on a contract, he said, and Bamboozled agrees wholeheartedly.

Roberts said she understands they’re trying to run a business, but she feels her request isn’t unreasonable. When her husband returns home at the end of his tour in April, she’ll see if he wants to take the classes. But she says she doesn’t want to send her children there.

"If we had done 10 out of the 25 classes, I wouldn’t have expected a refund," she said. "If they had only answered our messages back then. ... They had no ethical or moral responsibility to get back to me. They only have a responsibility to take my money."

"It’s customer service and if that’s the way they’re going to treat their families, then I don’t want to be part of it," she said.

[Lee Chiang Po]

If you are just teaching for the fun of it, and still have to pay rent and utilities, call it a club and request monthly membership fees. Paid on the first of the month or stay home. I would never teach for fun. My time would be better spent doing something else. But should I agree to teach, I would request a large sum of money up front. Tell him that miss once and you will say nothing, miss again and it is over with no refund. This will get you the attendence you want and he will have all that money to think about losing. Give it back down the line if you wish, but it will work better than a contract.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't sign contract with my students. I don't even ask them to pay monthly. When they come to my 2 hours class, they will pay my 2 hours fee before they leave. This way, I can stop my teaching anytime I want to, and they can stop learning from me anytime they want to.

[-N-]

I don't sign contract with my students. I don't even ask them to pay monthly. When they come to my 2 hours class, they will pay my 2 hours fee before they leave. This way, I can stop my teaching anytime I want to, and they can stop learning from me anytime they want to.

But isn't it annoying to give each student back one dollar every time they give you a five?

:D

[YouKnowWho]

But isn't it annoying to give each student back one dollar every time they give you a five?

:D

Sometime my student would throw me an extra quarter and I have to say in loud, "Thank's for your 25 cents tips!". This way I could remind other students to leave me more tips next time. :D

[-N-]

Sometime my student would throw me an extra quarter and I have to say in loud, "Thank's for your 25 cents tips!". This way I could remind other students to leave me more tips next time. :D

Or you could slam them on the ground a little harder to make more change fall out of their pockets :)

[Shaolin]

If you are just teaching for the fun of it, and still have to pay rent and utilities, call it a club and request monthly membership fees. Paid on the first of the month or stay home. I would never teach for fun. My time would be better spent doing something else. But should I agree to teach, I would request a large sum of money up front. Tell him that miss once and you will say nothing, miss again and it is over with no refund. This will get you the attendence you want and he will have all that money to think about losing. Give it back down the line if you wish, but it will work better than a contract.

That's basically a cash out program and if applied to 100% of the student body it can close a school real fast. The reason being is because there will be times of the year that are slower and the cash flow will decrease (unless you offer upgrades and have a strong proshop). The problem now is you have monthly payments for rent, NNN, CAM's, utilities, supplies, payroll, and miscellaneous and you have no steady income.

The trick with a cash out program is only to offer it to about 10-15% of your student body.


Contracts vs. Monthly Tuition

A school is a membership-based business model. The majority of a martial arts school’s revenue comes from students’ tuition, which is normally paid monthly. A school that attracts and keeps students grows this monthly income. You will have other profit centers and revenue streams such as retail sales, special events, and testing, but tuition is the financial foundation of any school.

The argument for using an agreement for new students holds up better than for using a month-to-month program. Here’s why. Students who sign an agreement are entering your program more committed than students who know they can quit at any time. Even if they do drop out, they tend to stay on longer to try and make good on their agreement. This is especially true if you have done a good job of qualifying the student and helping him/her understand the importance of the commitment.

Value What You Do.

Using an agreement reflects this. It shows that you have a process for bringing students into the school. Like a private school, your agreement process allows only people on your floor who are mentally (and legally) committing to training with you for a year. You are a highly trained, specialized, teacher.

Personally I offer both options to my students but the month-to-month option costs more.

[SPJ]

I don't sign contract with my students. I don't even ask them to pay monthly. When they come to my 2 hours class, they will pay my 2 hours fee before they leave. This way, I can stop my teaching anytime I want to, and they can stop learning from me anytime they want to.

My brother liked to give out coupon/token for attendance.

Every time the student shows up on time and attends the class time fully.

At the end of the class, he or she collects a coupon.

The students that attend and collect all the class coupon.

They get a star. And some of the tuition back or credit to enroll in the next series of classes.

If they attend the 5 levels of classes, they collect 5 stars. And some more tuition back at the very end.

If they miss classes, no refund.

:)

[RenDaHai]

Wow!

In England I have never seen a contract for a school. Most people pay by class and run it in a church hall or something, some are pay by month, but they have great facilities.

On Analogy with 'phone contract' or 'gym contract' or etc.

Are you guys stupid?? At a gym I can turn up any time I want from 6 in the morning till 12 at night. Are your classes like this? is your school open all day every day?

When you have a set class time, these are difficult to meet. You can't expect people to pay a contract for set class times, that is not to their convenience.


Think what service you are actually providing these people with.... think about it.

If a phone company said I have to pay a contract for my iPhone but I can only use it from 7-9pm Tue, Wed and Fri I would tell them to F-off.


Don't sign a contract...... Someone is trying to get money for nothing. Sure charge for a course like a collage, but you better have the lesson plans to go with it. Sure charge by the month like a gym, but have facilities people can use at their convenience. I can't think of an excuse to charge by the year unless you really have the best school in the world.

Bottom line, although it may happen throughout the business world, that is no excuse. It is unethical to take money from someone and provide no service. The last thing the world needs is more litigation.

[Shaolin]

Wow!

In England I have never seen a contract for a school. Most people pay by class and run it in a church hall or something, some are pay by month, but they have great facilities.

On Analogy with 'phone contract' or 'gym contract' or etc.

Are you guys stupid?? At a gym I can turn up any time I want from 6 in the morning till 12 at night. Are your classes like this? is your school open all day every day?

When you have a set class time, these are difficult to meet. You can't expect people to pay a contract for set class times, that is not to their convenience.


Think what service you are actually providing these people with.... think about it.

If a phone company said I have to pay a contract for my iPhone but I can only use it from 7-9pm Tue, Wed and Fri I would tell them to F-off.


Don't sign a contract...... Someone is trying to get money for nothing. Sure charge for a course like a collage, but you better have the lesson plans to go with it. Sure charge by the month like a gym, but have facilities people can use at their convenience. I can't think of an excuse to charge by the year unless you really have the best school in the world.

Bottom line, although it may happen throughout the business world, that is no excuse. It is unethical to take money from someone and provide no service. The last thing the world needs is more litigation.

Do you get an experienced and educated personal trainer with that gym membership or do you just get to use the facility and equipment on your own?

Do you actually show up at your gym at 6 and 12am or do you have somewhat of a regimented schedule?

Phone companies do put restrictions on services which is why they have "plans" which can include a combination how many minutes, text and data the client wishes to have typically for a period of 2 years. Sounds like a contract to me.

Most MMA gyms are open 6am-10pm here in the states and most traditional schools do follow a structured curriculum.

How exactly are schools trying to get money for nothing? If students take classes and learns something while getting into shape I'd say that's a fair trade.

[RenDaHai]

How exactly are schools trying to get money for nothing? If students take classes and learns something while getting into shape I'd say that's a fair trade.

Because thats what a contract does. If a student learns something and gets into shape, off course thats a fair trade. But if they are training they will be paying you either way contract or no. The contract is only in place to secure money from people who don't turn up all the time. So its purpose is charging people for nothing.

You could say its there to make people train.. If they have paid there is more incentive for them to turn up. There is some truth in this. But a long term contract?? Sure, do it by the month, especially if your gym has a lot of classes, but not a long contract.

[SPJ]

off topic

due to 2 year contract from phone company

I am waiting for iPhone 5 in june. do not want to use iPhone 4s for 2 years while other using curvy like soap and more powerful iPhone 5.

contract or not.

We may always schedule or find a class time that fits most people schedule

usually weekend or some week nights.

etc etc

:)

[Shaolin]

Because thats what a contract does. If a student learns something and gets into shape, off course thats a fair trade. But if they are training they will be paying you either way contract or no. The contract is only in place to secure money from people who don't turn up all the time. So its purpose is charging people for nothing.

You could say its there to make people train.. If they have paid there is more incentive for them to turn up. There is some truth in this. But a long term contract?? Sure, do it by the month, especially if your gym has a lot of classes, but not a long contract.

For the most part yes contracts are put in place to secure the school's income to maintain its survival. I disagree with the statement that they are "only in place to secure money from people who don't turn up all the time". If a student signs a contract it's the students responsibility to attend classes. The student entered into a legally binding contract. If the school honors the service it is the responsibility of the student to honor the tuition whether they attend training sessions or not.

There are a lot of schools and organizations that have used contracts unethically to their advantage. But for the most part a contract isn't a bad thing. Most of our every day services are contractually based. Your mortgage/rent, automobile, credit cards, phone, cable t.v/satellite/internet, gym, school/student loans, etc. are all contracts. So why is signing a contract for martial arts training so taboo?

The reason instructors started turning their school's into a business is because back in the 80's instructors were struggling between teaching, job, family and all the financial burden that comes with it. They were ending up divorced, and bankrupt. The students would become successful in life because of the morals, values, discipline and work ethics instilled into him/her while the instructor slept on a cot in the backroom of his school. Most of us (myself included) have at some point in their training had a fantastic instructor who didn't know how to run a business and eventually closed their doors and moved on with life.

[RenDaHai]

The students would become successful in life because of the morals, values, discipline and work ethics instilled into him/her while the instructor slept on a cot in the backroom of his school. .

Exactly, MA teaches ethics and morality as well as all the other stuff. That is a large part of it. How can one teach ethics if you are charging students who don't even turn up. To make it a business you would have to lose that element, and then its not kung fu anymore.

[kuniggety]

Where I go offers all the way from paying per class to prepaying for an entire year. This allows people to test the waters with commitment or if they know they're all into it then they can save some money by prepaying for a variety of number of intervals. I honestly don't see the problem with contracts. It's a business like any other who has to pay their bills. It's the same as signing up for a gym or signing a cell phone contract. The consumer has to weigh what they're getting for that month (or however long the contract is) and if what they get is worth it. If they decide to enter into a contract that they don't intend to honor, why is it suddenly the school's fault/bad for them to want to collect the money that the individual entered a contract for? Why is a martial arts school held to a different standard than any other business out there?

[Shaolin]

Exactly, MA teaches ethics and morality as well as all the other stuff. That is a large part of it. How can one teach ethics if you are charging students who don't even turn up. To make it a business you would have to lose that element, and then its not kung fu anymore.

Are you saying that one has to compromise an ethical code in order to become a business man and/or woman?

I would ask, how can an instructor teach their students about hard work, goal setting and achievement, pride, and self worth but still fail financially and fail in marriage? That's the real contradiction.

I still don't honestly understand. If the student knowingly and willing enters into a long term agreement for martial arts instruction and then doesn't attend the class, why is the instructor/school the bad guy. The student is the one at fault. They do have the option to not sign the contract.

[RenDaHai]

Are you saying that one has to compromise an ethical code in order to become a business man and/or woman?

Well, yeah. Sure, not in all cases, but I think that is a prerequisite of really successful business


I would ask, how can an instructor teach their students about hard work, goal setting and achievement, pride, and self worth but still fail financially and fail in marriage? That's the real contradiction.

Well, those may not be the things the student values. To be honest the vast majority of my training has been in China, I am a little out of touch with what people train for and want in the west. Generally I would respect virtue over success.


I still don't honestly understand. If the student knowingly and willing enters into a long term agreement for martial arts instruction and then doesn't attend the class, why is the instructor/school the bad guy. The student is the one at fault. They do have the option to not sign the contract.

Because that may be their only option to train, then circumstances may unpredictably change for them. Also people are fickle, this is something we all know. It would be wrong to prey on this part of human nature when you are already aware of it.

[Ben Gash]

The whole problem here is the need to differentiate between a good and bad contract, and fair and unfair business practices. There's nothing wrong with contracts, it's the abuse of contracts that's a problem.

[RenDaHai]

The whole problem here is the need to differentiate between a good and bad contract, and fair and unfair business practices. There's nothing wrong with contracts, it's the abuse of contracts that's a problem.

Yeah, I think that's right.

[Shaolin]

The whole problem here is the need to differentiate between a good and bad contract, and fair and unfair business practices. There's nothing wrong with contracts, it's the abuse of contracts that's a problem.

I agree with that.

[lance]

Here is the original article (http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/should-you-sign-a-karate-contract/).

Opinions?

I would check out the teacher first and see how he teaches his class first . Because there are teachers that just charge monthly for martial arts instruction . So that you can just quit the training whenever you feel like . So checking out the teachers' background and experience is important to me , then that way I know what kind of teacher I ' m dealing with . Because , the master or sensei should be able to teach you how to really defend yourself , instead of just telling you that you ' re not doing it right , the sensei is suppose to show you how to block a straight punch comming to your face , without getting hit . Instead of getting hit .