I remember when...

[phoenixrising]

I remember when, 7 years ago, this forum (neijia) used to be really vital with lots of active discussion. Sam Wiley and lots of other long time practitioners would regularly post. Then Baguatiger came on and started talking about how hsing i is supposed to be like 'a trucker on crack running you down.' Then, later, blacktaoist came in and started insulting and challenging people. Everyone just became silent and left. This forum never recovered and its been a long time. I wonder how come Emptyflower survived that (at least Blacktaoist, who I think was the principal cause) and this forum didn't, particularly since there are or were a number of mutual posters. Oh well...

[Xin Yi Liu He]

Bro, best move on eh?

It is up for the rest of the members to contribute and share knowledge, right?

Jay_Bee.

[Three Harmonies]

EF has started to go to crap as well. Few forums that are cool anymore. This is a lot of the reason many people are turned off by CMA anymore. Too bad!
Cheers
Jake :cool:

[Walter Joyce]

EF has started to go to crap as well. Few forums that are cool anymore. This is a lot of the reason many people are turned off by CMA anymore. Too bad!
Cheers
Jake :cool:

I don't think it's CMA, I think its internet forums in general.

There are a finite number of topics, and after they have been covered it's just politics.

[SPJ]

I think the internet changes.

Youtube started in 2005. look at the CMA vid popped up in great number in 2006.

I frequent many forums chinese and english.

for most part, everyone reads regularly.

not everyone posts.

--

there is a limit that words/text may convey.

most people just post info websites and vid links.

--

discussion is also limited to poster's experiences of a topic.

--

:)

[Three Harmonies]

Perhaps Walter, I do not frequent many outside (Japanese / Philipino etc.) the CMA. A couple of the grappling ones I am on they seem a bit more tame.
I have been speaking with a lot of people lately regarding the (seemingly) lack of interest in CMA, and a lot of folks are telling me they gravitate towards BJJ and MMA because their is less "bull****." Now everyone's idea of "bull****" is different, but for the most part they are talking about all the silly politics and "secret" BS often associated with CMA.
Everything eb's and flows, but the CMA need to clean up their act a bit more or we are going to lose a lot of interest.

SPJ - I know a ton of high level teachers that read what happens on the forum's yet do not post, so I hear you! It is funny when someone starts running their mouth (or would it be keyboard :p ) about such and such, and that individual is often reading right along with. Very common.

Cheers
Jake :)

[phoenixrising]

Jake-Yeah, I'm getting burnt out on EF, too, although that forum is heads and tails above this one in terms of getting quality info (and funny stuff too :) -I have learned alot from that forum and gotten referrals from there to many good articles and books and things (not always IMA related- it seems like alot of internal martial artists are interested in similar things to me, i.e., personal growth, shamanism, human potential, healing, magic. strength training...)
All in all, its probably a good thing, tho, (at least for me), as it gives me more incentive to train and move all aspects of my life forward instead of wasting time on internet forums (something I've done perhaps far too much of and have resolved to stop doing several times). Maybe my feeling of 'burnout' on these forums is a natural and good thing as I leave them behind and move on and forward to other things in life.

[phoenixrising]

The funny thing is that the blacktaoist, who is (along with Maoshan), the principal 'murderer' of this forum- from looking (and a famous teacher I know looking) at his clips online- he doesn't strike me as being particularly skilled in neijia. I'm sure he can fight OK, but in terms of high level body skill- I don't see it.

[Xin Yi Liu He]

I think BT means well, but his method of delivery is way off, so off that it does not matter what skills he has, you know what I mean?

P.S, if you want to keep this forum up and happening, then move on, contribute some information and ask people some sound questions.

EF is pretty tame at the mo, I saw Don Bido kicked out someone in the past day over the "lineage of iron wire thread".

CMA is nothing to be worried about, I still know there are enough hard core practitioners to keep it alive, it ain't going anywhere anything soon.

Jay_Bee

[Walter Joyce]

EF is pretty tame at the mo, I saw Don Bido kicked out someone in the past day over the "lineage of iron wire thread".

CMA is nothing to be worried about, I still know there are enough hard core practitioners to keep it alive, it ain't going anywhere anything soon.

Jay_Bee

I think he was booted because he was just trolling.

[Xin Yi Liu He]

Yeh, I think it's rude to come into someones house, don't even introduce yourself and then start asking 101 questions, without even a descent "Hello, my name is".

I am sure if he asked the guy in question about his lineage in the right manner, he would of got his answer.

JB.

[Fu-Pow]

Well I can say that I was kicked off of emptyflower for really stupid crap that was started by other people. So I'm not to fond of it. I recently went back and took a look at it and it seems pretty dead.

I would post in this forum more but it seems that not many actual internal practitioners post here. As soon as you post anything about internal principles or training you get jumped on by people that say "there's no difference between internal and external martial arts." These are people that, as far as I can tell, don't practice internal martial arts and just have some beef with it.

So in order for this forum to get better those people need to be excluded. Its needs to be taken as a given that there is a difference between internal and external martial arts on many levels...strategic and in terms of training methods. Until other people on this forum can respect that difference then this forum will continue to be quiet.

FP

[Walter Joyce]

Well I can say that I was kicked off of emptyflower for really stupid crap that was started by other people. So I'm not to fond of it. I recently went back and took a look at it and it seems pretty dead.

I would post in this forum more but it seems that not many actual internal practitioners post here. As soon as you post anything about internal principles or training you get jumped on by people that say "there's no difference between internal and external martial arts." These are people that, as far as I can tell, don't practice internal martial arts and just have some beef with it.

So in order for this forum to get better those people need to be excluded. Its needs to be taken as a given that there is a difference between internal and external martial arts on many levels...strategic and in terms of training methods. Until other people on this forum can respect that difference then this forum will continue to be quiet.

FP

I find your post to be inaccurate factually. There may be a small contingent at EF that maintain there is no difference between internal and external methods, but they are in the minority.

I think your assessment is biased by the fact that you were banned from the site.

[Sung]

when i start studying hsing-i and have questions i'll def post them here

[Fu-Pow]

I find your post to be inaccurate factually. There may be a small contingent at EF that maintain there is no difference between internal and external methods, but they are in the minority.

I think your assessment is biased by the fact that you were banned from the site.


You misread my statement, in my first paragraph I was talking about emptyflower, starting from the second paragraph I was talking about this forum.

But, yes, my opinion of emptyflower is biased because I was kicked off basically for nothing.

FP

[RonH]

I think one problem might stem from the nature of internal work. Many people have a tough time relating about experiences without some kind of reference that many know of, but it wouldn't entirely be their fault either. Experiences can be difficult to articulate. It isn't as easy as saying 'when he's got you like so, turn this way, bend you neck down and you slid out'.

[Sung]

maybe it's also the saying that's something like
'those who know don't talk'

?

[RonH]

I think there might be 2 versions of that sentence.

1. Those who know don't talk because they are uneffected by those that don't want to believe and by those that want to skip all the steps to 'mastery'.

2. Those who know don't talk because they use much of their time delving deeper because those that know normally don't talk.

[Walter Joyce]

maybe it's also the saying that's something like
'those who know don't talk'

?

Well that would suck.

If they don't talk, how can you ever learn from them?

[Scott R. Brown]

I don't think it is necessary to blame anyone for killing a BB or a thread. All one need do is ignore the person you don't want to communicate with.

Think of them as leaves blowing in the wind while you are taking a jog. They are only a concern if you react to them. If you recognize the presence of the leaves you spend all your energy trying to avoid them. In this sense "avoiding" them is meant to be thought of as "recognizing them". When you recognize the leaves and try to avoid them you waste energy; they become a barrier to be circumvented and you spend your time trying to run around them. Recognizing the leaves allows them to interfere with the flow of your jog. In the realm of conversation it is recognizing the post of someone you feel is bringing the thread down and responding to them that brings the thread down. If, when jogging, I merely ignore the leaves and continue with my run, I am essentially unaffected by them. If on a BB you simply ignore those you are not compatible with they in essence don't exist for you and therefore cannot affect your interactions with those who do appeal to you.

I consider interacting on BB's as part of my training. It is an integral part of practice to learn to apply Internal principles to all interactions, not just during physical training. Internal principles are not limited to the physical/self-defense realm of activity; they apply to every area of life, including social interactions. To avoid unpleasant interactions is good at times, but to engage them at times provides a measure of our skill. Remember, skill is improved by constant testing/training.

A BB is relatively safe training hall because we can interact somewhat anonymously, leave whenever it gets to hot for us, and come back later to try again. When someone appears to be trying to bring a thread down try to see it as an opportunity for self-growth. Perhaps they truly are trying to bring the thread down, but that shouldn't matter if their participation is providing you with an opportunity for growth. You can't change the world, but you can always change yourself. Instead of thinking of the glass as half empty, consider it half full of opportunity.

[RonH]

I consider interacting on BB's as part of my training. It is an integral part of practice to learn to apply Internal principles to all interactions, not just during physical training. Internal principles are not limited to the physical/self-defense realm of activity; they apply to every area of life, including social interactions. To avoid unpleasant interactions is good at times, but to engage them at times provides a measure of our skill. Remember, skill is improved by constant testing/training.

Here's a challenge I propose for you, Brown. Make your keyboard so 'sad' psychically that the keys move down on their own, so that you can respond to this post. :p

[Scott R. Brown]

I sat here for 10 mins. projecting my Chi and nothing happened. I don't thing it worked!:confused:

But I did get an headache, does that mean anything??

P.S. Internal principles are not just the cultivation of Chi, it also includes the understanding and application of the principles of Tao and it is that to which I was referring. ;)

[RonH]

Hehehe.

Okay, try this. Think of the emotional body of the keyboard. Think of the energy vibrations switching from their current state to one that would be 'sad'. Then, visualize the keys moving down to type up your reply. When you've done this, eliminate from our mind the concepts of the past or the future, focusing entirely on the present. The keyboard is so sad, that it is dropping its keys to type out your response to this post. Since there's no past or future with this idea/feeling, it must be happening for you right now.

If it doesn't work, there's something in you keeping it from happening. :p ;)

Edit: If you got a headache, you're trying too hard. Just Tao the crap out of the keyboard. :p

[Scott R. Brown]

Hehehe.

Okay, try this. Think of the emotional body of the keyboard. Think of the energy vibrations switching from their current state to one that would be 'sad'. Then, visualize the keys moving down to type up your reply. When you've done this, eliminate from our mind the concepts of the past or the future, focusing entirely on the present. The keyboard is so sad, that it is dropping its keys to type out your response to this post. Since there's no past or future with this idea/feeling, it must be happening for you right now.

If it doesn't work, there's something in you keeping it from happening. :p ;)

Edit: If you got a headache, you're trying too hard. Just Tao the crap out of the keyboard. :p

The problem is the more sad I think the more sad I feel and then my tears short out the keyboard. I think I am too sensitive for this exercise. :(

[RonH]

;) Remember when we were talking a long time ago about shielding v self-control? Think of it like that. Disassocaite yourself from the sad that's bubbling up in you. If that's still a problem, imagine that the keyboard has a life of its own, responding the way you would. Visualize that it has a feeling of wanting to speak.

[Scott R. Brown]

;) Remember when we were talking a long time ago about shielding v self-control? Think of it like that. Disassocaite yourself from the sad that's bubbling up in you. If that's still a problem, imagine that the keyboard has a life of its own, responding the way you would. Visualize that it has a feeling of wanting to speak.

hoaisfjoav
weitjg-98q346ysjfiweuhvtuipahgf;kljuidgbhpriovrjopckwejd[waporjfuierghuier87
y40853iujf48tynhfvdi

Hey!! It Works!! What did it say though???:confused:

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The Internal threads suffer due, largely, to people's lack of belief in their system.. to be silenced by the MMA braggarts is a signature of that situation.. i have no issues with EF, i visited and found it lacking in authenticity, sincerity, and practically any element of humanatarian compassion.. i have not visited since..

Yes, at one time KFO internal threads were a great source of information.. and, Kudos to Scott R. Brown for his tireless efforts to raise the bar.. wallowing in the sentiments of who/what damages a thread is a bit like living in the past, better to pursue who/what can revive this resource.. Much of the reason i have backed-off is the lack of decent topics and the embarassing displays rudeness..

Internal practitioners suffer the disbelief of most others, including many CMA people as well.. it is our inability to convey the experience of Internal Arts, both physically and through standard communications, that challenge our credibility.. well, that and the unfortunate number of observable frauds.. and often we even challenge the credibility of our own art, not directly, but.. in very subtle concessions to the more persistent and opiniated detractors..

I have been fortunate to train with some remarkable teachers, so there is no doubt in my experiences that Internal Arts are valid combat arts, and.. so much more.. i look forward to the time when Internal Arts rise to the challenge of demonstrating their worth..

Be well...

[Walter Joyce]

Greetings..

The Internal threads suffer due, largely, to people's lack of belief in their system.. to be silenced by the MMA braggarts is a signature of that situation.. i have no issues with EF, i visited and found it lacking in authenticity, sincerity, and practically any element of humanitarian compassion.. i have not visited since..

Be well...


Wow, guess you told us.

But how do you have no issues with something and then label it lacking in...?


Does the phrase internally inconsistent mean anything to you?

[Fu-Pow]

What's your dysfunction?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Walter: Thanks for the analysis.. but, it's an observation, not an "issue".. i'm over it..

Be well..

[Sung]

Well that would suck.

If they don't talk, how can you ever learn from them?

you can't?

[Mike Patterson]

Hi all,

Many of you know me, at least by name. Those who don't can check my particulars through my log in.

I'll post on this thread a copy of something I posted a while ago on Empty Flower. It seems wholely appropriate to this topic as well (although it was addressed to a specific individual called "Robster" on that forum). It sums up my thoughts on the ongoing issue in all such venues.



Thanks Robster. But I put no weight on that sort. I am not that "thinly skinned". I am quite comfortable with what I do and have done.

What I find interesting as always in these forums is that there is mostly a lot of "noise" and not so much meat in many threads. From time to time over the years I have sampled and tried to participate in various structures. First I tried the "xingyi list" and "neijia list" of long ago hoping to share ideas with other practitioners. But, similarly, became rather bored for lack of meaty discussion.

It seems to me that seldom do you find a legitimate question, but rather veiled slurs or outright slights. Seldom do you find a well substantiated opinion, but rather a generalized statement devoid of any real insight. This therefore leads nowhere and invokes a defensive posture instead of an open doorway. I guess the trend is made easy given the general anonymity of the internet.

Still, it could be such a useful tool if focused more effectively. All of us have similar interests, but vastly different experiences. No two paths are completely the same. Different lineages, different perspectives. Even within the same lineage, personal insights vary depending on scope of training. If people could keep the discussion productive, who knows what gems might turn up. I keep hoping, but I won't hold my breath.

My two and a half cents..;)

[RonH]

hoaisfjoav
weitjg-98q346ysjfiweuhvtuipahgf;kljuidgbhpriovrjopckwejd[waporjfuierghuier87
y40853iujf48tynhfvdi

Hey!! It Works!! What did it say though???:confused:

It's having its first taste of conscious self-awareness. It's like a child learning to speak and write. Give it time and your keyboard will be writing Shakespeare, but much better than the chain smoking chimps locked in a room long enough.

[phoenixrising]

Thanks for your response, Mike. I guess a good and unbiased moderator is important because there is an unfortunate tendency for people to act like bullies, disrespectful, childish, insulting without provocation, immature, and moronic on the internet where they would act differently if the conversation was in person.- instead of just respectfully disagreeing. There is also an unfortunate tendency to follow the status quo, which I see on emptyflower- the pack mentality, the lowest common denominator.

Scott and Ron, if you guys want to have a laugh, please take it to another thread. This is basic internet etiquette.

[Scott R. Brown]

Scott and Ron, if you guys want to have a laugh, please take it to another thread. This is basic internet etiquette.

Hi phoenixrising,

This is your thread and I apologize for participating in an off topic bit of levity. While it may be "presumed" etiquette to stay on topic this is a rule that is more winked at then assiduously adhered too. Since you have been on these boards so long you should know this is what occurs. If we were honest we would have to admit that a thread which stays on topic is rare.

I am not complaining! I follow the rule that the initiator of the thread has the right to oversee the thread. I do take a bit of umbrage at the insinuation that we are braking etiquette/being rude, since no thread I have read or participated in has ever stayed strictly on subject and this has been nearly universally accepted behavior. So to presume we are breaking etiquette seems to be over-stepping.

There is no need to introduce an admonition to comply with a rule that is rarely followed. We are not children here! A simple request to stay on topic would have sufficed.

The tone of your "etiquette" comment as well as your initial post leads me to consider a poor attitude may be contributing to your disappointment with the type of discourse on these threads. This is what I more tactfully alluded to in my previous post.

It is beneficial to always examine our own attitudes and unrealistic expectations before we complain about the behavior of others. I have been on this board myself for about 6 years and while there are some wild west-like behaviors going on at times, there are also many stimulating conversations as well.

Tao teaches us that conflict is inherent within creation. It is conflict that stimulates growth. Outer/World System conflict challenges us to change internally in order to return to a condition of harmony. This is the rhythmic cycle of life that stimulates growth and is most excellently illustrated by Yin-Yang.

None of us gets to dictate how Tao will manifest itself. Principles of Tao and Tai Chi theory recommend to us that we learn to accommodate ourself to Tao and not seek to impose our own expectations upon Tao. If we want to encourage the free expression of ideas we must accept ideas and methods of presentation that tread along the edges of propriety. That does not mean we cannot state our displeasure, however change begins with ourselves. If civility is what you seek then start with civility in your own conduct.

[phoenixrising]

Scott- I believe I was civil- I did say please, after all. A couple posts on a thread that are completely off topic are not a big deal but when it keeps on going and going then it gets irritating.

[woliveri]

I think few people approach the martial arts with humility and objectiveness which I think is essential for anyone to grow to a higher level. I've recently seen a big example of this when I returned to the states after training in China. I visited a sister group of the same lineage and for me to experience their egos and personalities was quite sad. They had the opportunity to have a great exchange and frankly, learn so much from my visit but instead they were stand-offish and taking the posture, it seemed, that I might be there to 'steal' their material. Only one student was friendly but even he didn't take the opportunity to absorb any material from me. I, on the other hand, with just the little bit exposed to me, learned some techiques of practice by watching. However, because of the group's attitude they lost severely.

Now, how does this play out with this topic? I think people get into the same thing on boards.. Sometimes people have a little something and think it's all the world and they're not going to let anyone else see it or even talk about their teacher. Sometimes it's good, to protect the teacher from A-holes, sometimes it's not good, preventing someone from learning. I've seen teachers of taiji performing a move incorrectly which I offered a different view and rather take the information to heart they come up with something like, well maybe that's the martial arts way to do it. Thus, not accepting the information and thus not growing.

So, like Kwai Chang Cane, we need to be humble like ripe rice, have open exchanges, and try to benefit and understand others, be objective in our observations, who are in the same great world of Chinese Martial Arts.

[Scott R. Brown]

Scott- I believe I was civil- I did say please, after all. A couple posts on a thread that are completely off topic are not a big deal but when it keeps on going and going then it gets irritating.

Hi phoenixrising,

I understand. Your point is made and I will respect your wishes.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi woliveri,

There are a number of ways to view this.

One is the presumption that you have something valuable to offer. I am not implying you didn’t have something valuable to offer, but your assumption you have something valuable to offer changes the way you will approach and interpret the situation. You, being excited about new information you learned in China, want to share it with others. To you it is perhaps unique insight while to them it might not have appeared so exciting or innovative.

One of the things we want to do when we learn something new, exciting and beneficial to us is to share it with others, but often others don’t share our enthusiasm. This is human nature. If you have ever known anyone who is fresh from substance abuse rehab (When the rehab has worked for them.) or a new convert to some religion, you may have noticed that their enthusiasm to share their new experiences can be annoying to others. This is because the new knowledge and life style they have recently found applies to their personal needs and goals, but not to those they want to share their experiences with. It isn’t that the information is not valuable or exciting; it is that it does not fulfill a need or desire in the audience and so it is not valued.

It is possible they interpreted your skill and knowledge as not in line with the school's goals. It is also possible they viewed your skill and knowledge as a threat to the school’s social culture. It is possible in your enthusiasm you appeared too eager or pushy which made them uncomfortable. It is possible they interpreted your enthusiasm as appearing that you consider your information better than their school's way of doing things. Even if none of this was your intent they may still have interpreted your attitude different than your intent.

Sometimes new information should be presented when it is requested and not volunteered. if you are new to the school and have no reputation or rapport with any leaders of the school your desire to share during a class could be viewed as interloping.

By the nature of the activity MA is competitive. There is a social hierarchy in every school. An interloper is seldom welcome if it appears his presence will imbalance the hierarchy. Status is important to people and to have someone jump the status line is resisted.

Try to have the attitude of sharing, while not clinging to the need to have your information valued. Sometimes new information is more like a seed in the person’s mind. It will give fruit in the fullness of time. Sometimes the information you provide does not have a context the person fully understands until they have a circumstance that creates the context and then they have an “AH HAH!!” moment when it all makes sense. Think of your purpose as to plant seeds and not necessarily to be present when the seeds bear fruit.

[phoenixrising]

Scott- no hard feelings. I respect you for apologizing.

[woliveri]

Hi Scott,

You are making the assumption that I walked in and started sharing my freshly learned skills, pushing them on them. I did not. I visited their workout place and introduced myself as one of their lineage from China. I never did offer up any trade of skills because of the attitude and atmosphere of the students and teacher. Like I said it was, for the most part, stand-offish and unfriendly. If it were me I would want to hear all about how someone from China trained. I would want to see as much as they would be willing to show me. I can tell you in Shanghai where I trained we welcomed others in the style and had friendly exchanges of our style. Maybe they felt threatened, I don't know but I don't know how they could since I never displayed any or offered any skills since I was only trying to be friendly and had the position of sharing knowledge if they desired. Now, having said that, I am open and objective and while there I did pick up a couple of training techniques just by watching. And, I have over 20 years of experience in Chinese Martial Arts and Qigong and can recognise quality and after watching them practice I can tell you without reservation they could have benefited greatly from an exchange but, again, because of their attitudes they didn't. Their cups were full, not empty and they lost.

I re-read my post and firmly stand by it.

The second instance I mentioned was with a Taiji teacher who asked me, "is this how they do it in China?". I then proceeded to give him a clarification on one move and that's when he shrugged it off as a "maybe that's for the martial artists" statement.

So, anyway, the point is to always keep our cups empty, being open and friendly. Lose big egos and arrogance. Otherwise we can never advance to a higher level.

Bill

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi woliveri,

I was not assuming, I was speculating. I don't know you so all I can do is speculate according to my own experiences. My intent was to help not to criticize. What we bring to a situation influences our interpretation of it. From your posts it appears you had expectations and were disappointed. Perhaps it was all the school's poor attitude, perhaps you have some responsibility for your own disappoint and their reaction whether you know it or not. As readers we don't know, we weren't there. You shared your experience and I shared my thoughts about it, that is all.

It takes two to have a relationship/interaction. You participated in the interaction and your own behavior and attitude affected the outcome. It is often beneficial to review our own behaviors, expectations and attitudes when we are disappointed with the results of an interaction. We may learn from it regardless who is responsible for the disappointing outcome. Sometimes other people do not see us or our actions in the same the way we see ourselves and misunderstandings occur.

It is more important that we keep our own cups empty than it is to worry about whether others have their cups empty. From your comments it is apparent you had expectations that they would or should appreciate your insights and/or knowledge. You are the one disappointed by their reaction. That makes the responsibility for your disappointment yours because you had the expectation. If you share your knowledge without expectations of anything in return you are more closely accommodating yourself to Tao. If you share without expectation your own cup is empty and you will not be disappointed or encouraged by the results of your interaction. I am not trying to say you shouldn’t have been disappointed, I am saying you are responsible for your own disappoint, not the other school. If we heard from those of at school it is likely they would interpret the episode differently than you. Perhaps in their version it would be you who is not looked at favorably.

I agree with you I would want to know how things were done in China as well, but not everyone is interested. Whether one advances to a higher level or not is ones own responsibility. What is considered a higher level and how to accomplish that is in the eye of the beholder. When the Tai Chi instructor brushed off your comment, it revealed his goals and expectations for his training are different than yours. Your disappointment in his reaction reveals your own unrealistic expectations of him. You want him to value your knowledge, he does not. The flaw is in you, not the instructor. His goals and values are different than yours and you do not respect that. It is your cup that is full because you do not accept that he wants something different from his training that you do. You are trying to impose your values on him and his class. If this is apparent in your writing perhaps it was apparent to the teacher and his class as well. I am not saying it was, I was not there. I am recommending some introspection in an attempt to improve your own self. What is important is what you learn about yourself from this encounter, not what you learn about others.

In the end it appears you disregard the teacher in the same manner you feel he disregarded you.

“I offered a different view and rather take the information to heart they come up with something like, well maybe that's the martial arts way to do it. Thus, not accepting the information and thus not growing.”

Your opinion and his opinion are different, that does not make his opinion wrong. Neither does it make yours wrong; it is only different from his. He interprets the movements according to his purpose and goals. A TaeBo student need not perform a strike like a MA. It is immaterial whether it would be an overall benefit or not. Fighting is not their purpose, so who cares.

Your own comments make it appear you approached the event with your own cup full as well. You considered your demonstration of the movement the correct or better version or at least worth being aware of. This is not an empty cup wishing to share information. This is thinking you are blessing others with your knowledge. If this attitude is apparent when you relate the episode perhaps the instructor perceived this attitude as well. In the end it appears that it is your cup that could stand a little more emptiness.

[woliveri]

Hi Scott,

Thanks for your comments. I think this exchange illustrates the possible problem with a message board as it seems impossible to fully give a picture of events through writing no matter how many words are written. Probably because when two readers read the same thing both will have something different in their minds based on each other's past experiences and each writer has different writing skill levels. I'm not such an articulate writer as are you and TaiChiBob.

You're right that I probably thought I would, at the very least, would have some new friends. Again, I never got to the demonstration or exchange of skills. Given common courtesy, I thought at the very least the group would welcome me as a kung fu brother or just as a friend who is interested in martial arts. But alas, no. Who knows, maybe they've had their share of A-holes approaching the group and had developed thick skins as a result. I don't know. So, no problem, no worries.

Anyhoo, thank you again for your comments. I will endeavor to work further on emptying my cup.

Best Regards,

Bill

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi woliveri,

Thank you for your receptiveness to my comments and accepting them for the mere speculation they are. I agree there are frequent misunderstandings when trying to communicate at all much less on a BB. I understand it is possible I have completely misunderstood your posts. I am just trying to help.

Good Luck.

Since you have some unique experiences in China perhaps we would benefit from some of what you have learned. Have you considered starting a thread and sharing them? Of course it is likely there will be some disagreement with some of your insights, but that does not mean there will not be some who will benefit as well.

It is just a thought. Please consider it.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Scott, Hi Bill..

I have known Bill for quite a few years and i must say that he is perhaps one of the most sincere and dedicated seekers of Internal knowledge i have met.. that doesn't preclude projecting the perception of the "full-cup syndrome", but sometimes we should consider what it is that's in the cup.. it could be useful.. sometimes, we empty our cups by sharing with others.. Just a thought..

Be well..

[woliveri]

Hi Bob, thanks.

Many of us may have different interests, destinations, and different ways of looking at Internal Martial arts. For me, while I do have martial interests, it's equally about how each exercise affects the body internally, how an exercise builds more qi, how body structure might facilitate better circulation of qi and how alignment between heaven and earth will better build qi. For the most part, I'm looking at my practices from a Chinese medical viewpoint. So, from this viewpoint I cannot get caught up in style name or art. I must be objective and detached and observe the results.

While most in Shanghai have been friendly and have given exchanges, I have had one fellow tell me the way I was performing was all-wrong. He told me he had the correct lineage and was an indoor student, his way was correct, etc etc etc. He also gave me specific comments about hand position and how mine was too high and his was correct. Now, listening to all this continuously for greater part of an hour one could feel quite unhappy and frustrated to receive a fire hose of "I do it right and you do it wrong" comments. And I do admit it made me feel uneasy. But I just released it as I was there and after I left carefully and objectively considered if his comments were correct from my level of experience and understanding. At the time and up to now I still don't believe he is correct and I can explain why. But, who knows, perhaps in the future I could be proved wrong. As long as I let my ego go, remain objective, I can have the opportunity to see that possible point which at this point has no possible truth.

Anyways, I'm just rambling with thoughts towards no specific question or point.

Best Regards,

Bill

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Bill,

Your attitude was beneficial. It is best to leave others to their own issues and dwell upon our own. You met the challenge of the experience. Faced your own uncomfortable feelings and let them go. You evaluated the information you gained, measured it against your own knowledge base and filed away in you memory what was not found valuable against the future when the seeds could possibly bear fruit.

Bob's speaking for anyone's character is always a good recommendation and it is evident his comments concerning you have merit.

Please do not take my previous comments as harsh criticism. As you have correctly commented, we all have our own interests and destinations. For me observation indicates that most of us worry too much about how others behave and not enough about our own behavior. We tend to want others to behave according to our own expectations. We don't understand that the action occurs within our own mind (our expectations), not with the behavior of others. As Hui-Neng teaches, "It is not the flag that moves, it is not the wind that moves, it is our mind that moves". Inherently it is what is within our own minds that causes us to be upset, not the behaviors of others.

[woliveri]

Hi Scott, no worries... I appreciate your viewpoint and comments.

Actually, I really don't know your CMA background.. What are you practicing these days?

I was a previous student of Wah Lum in Orlando, studied Tai Mantis from a Vietnamese gentleman for a period of time, went into Qigong from there and most recently, Started Bagua Zhang in the last year. I'm a big fan of Standing practices. Currently in about my 5th year of part time Chinese Language study. And will return to Shanghai in a couple of weeks to continue my studies.



Tai Chi Bob, what is your current perspective of the WujiQigong Seminar back in the 90s given by Cai Song Fang? Do you still practice or have you found anything better for you?

Thanks,

Bill

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Bill,

My MA training began 33 years ago with an American eclectic style whose name I do not mention. It is a small and insignificant style with no more than 4 small schools and less than 10 instructors, not including the founder. They mostly keep a low profile, although one school is a bit noteworthy in the Midwest.

The founder of the style trained in a number of arts. In the 60’s he received a Black Belt in Kajukenbo and was an affiliate of Hop Sing Tong (he is Caucasian), in addition to that he earned a Black Sash from Ark Y. Wong in the Sil Lum 5 Animal style, a brown belt in Judo, was an amateur boxer in the Navy and grew up streetfighting. He took what he thought was the best of his experiences and combined them into his own style.

28 years ago after completing a 20 page essay exam, a 7 ½ hour physical test during which I lost 15#, and an oral interview. (Sorry for the slight boasting, but it was grueling and I am proud to have passed) I received a 3rd Degree Black Belt in the style and the right to teach. I do not discuss the style because I am only loosely affiliated with them now. We have differences in values. I contend they no longer conform to the original intent of the art.

I began training in Yang Tai Chi, some 27 years ago; I cannot say I formally train in Tai Chi any longer. One could say, my training is free-form because it does not adhere to an established superficial form, while it does adhere to Tai Chi principles, which are merely principles of Tao. I do intend to learn some Chen Tai Chi in the near future. At my level of knowledge it is difficult to find a school that meets my needs, interests and goals. To train at a formal school one must conform to limited worldviews and, as you have recently discovered, this can make training uncomfortable. The benefits must outweigh the detriments in order for me to attend a school.

I also have formal training in, White Crane, Aiki-jutsu, Aikikai Aikido, including short staff and bokken training (my instructor had iai-jutsu training), and some formal and informal training in grappling and a few other arts.

I have been a student of Tao and Ch’an longer than my MA training going back 35 years. My interests over the past 15-20 years has been integrating and understanding core principles as well as deepening my understanding and practice of Ch'an and accommodating myself to principles of Tao.

Every field of study is founded upon core principles. In material Arts there are physical core principles and conceptual/philosophical core principles. Core principles are the principles upon which all the superficial techniques and concepts are based.

Most students only study superficial actions and a few superficial principles, but are unaware of core principles. If one understands the core principles of an art or system of thought they will spontaneously understand all that springs from those principles. For example: once one understands the core principles of addition, one may add any numbers imaginable. Contrast this with simply memorizing the addition tables. I may have memorized that 2 + 2 = 4, but I may not necessarily understand how or why 2 + 2 = 4. When this occurs I cannot add any other numbers because I do not understand the core principles of addition. So, it is more beneficial/efficient to study and understand the core principles of a thing than the superficial aspects. If I understand the core I understand all that springs from that core. If I understand the roots of a tree than I spontaneously understand the leaves. If we focus only on the leaves we may never understand the roots and our knowledge remains superficial. However, if we understand the roots, the core, then a complete understanding of the trunk, branches and leaves occurs spontaneously as an inherent consequence. This is not an opinion; it is a principle of Tao and may be demonstrated by anyone for themselves through personal investigation.

As another example: Tai Chi is founded upon physical principles and conceptual principles. The physical principles may be divided into two areas of study, the physical body and principles of chi, the conceptual principles are applied principles of Tao. To gain a comprehensive understanding of Tai Chi, if that is ones goal, one must not just practice superficial traditional training modalities, but also study, investigate and understand the core principles. Once the core principles are understood and applied effectively one discovers that the superficial traditional training modalities, while beneficial, are not a requirement. They are only one method used to accomplish a specific purpose. They are no longer inviolable actions, but merely a tool used to attain a specific goal. It is the core principles that give application and meaning to the superficial practice, not the other way around. What occurs for most people is they so adhere to the superficial structure and teaching they are unable to understand core principles and become limited in their understanding. Deeper understanding comes from the constant questioning of established structures. Once we think we understand a principle we continue to question. This constant questioning breaks down our unrecognized fixed beliefs and thinking processes and reveals unimagined insights.

[TaiChiBob]

Hi Bill..

Yes, i do still practice the WuJiGong.. it has become a staple of my regimen, also Standing Post and, as Suzy would say Jam Jong.. i am also training with Jeff R., Master Wong's senior student.. that is going very well.. i have sponsored Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming for two weekend seminars in Taiji Ball, QiNa and Taiji Symbol training.. we're keeping that up as well.. if you're in the area Aug. 5th, WCC Chen will be here for a workshop on translating Taiji form to Taiji combat..

It sounds like you are having a great journey, i wish you well..

Bob

[woliveri]

Hi Scott,

Thanks for the reply.. I believe we are pretty much on the same page.

Hi Bob, thanks for the invite. Sorry, I'll be in China at the time. However, if you or anyone you know with good character are interested in coming to Shanghai I would be happy to introduce you to my Bagua teacher, show you where the Wu guys hang out, or just show you around in general. It would be my pleasure..

I met Master Wong recently when I came to Orlando. Mike Roberts brought me over to see him and his wife. Very nice people. Perhaps I'll see him in Shanghai after he returns. His senior student, would that be the gentleman who brought him to Orlando (tt)?


Best regards,

Bill

[brianlkennedy]

I noticed this thread because of Patterson Laoshi's post. And I quite agree with his critique. Internet forums could be an extremely useful source of information but they suffer from a number of problems.

First, in cyberspace everyone’s opinion is seemingly equal. That is not true in the real world but in cyberspace the "victory" goes often to the person who devotes the most keyboard time to the thread. Because of the lack of anything resembling peer review or quality control or even real names with real credentials or any other form of accountability; in cyberspace it kind of flattens everything out to the lowest level.

Cyberspace seems to breed rudeness and bravado that people would not exhibit in real life or even in old style print media where letters to the editor had real names and came from a real postal address. I have had a couple of situations here in Taiwan where guys talk all kinds of **** on internet forums then when you run into them in real life then suddenly get quiet as church mice.

Also as a general concept the internet is not a source of information. If I remember right the Google/Yahoo stats show that something like 80% of the internet traffic is porn site downloads. I may have that stat wrong but the moral being the internet is basically movie star gossip, porn downloads and email. The point I am driving at is, at least in my view, the core function of cyberspace is not acting as some kind of high level information source.

Having said that I have over the years learned quite a bit off various internet forum but, and here is the number one problem I have with internet forum, the Signal/Noise ratio is huge meaning you gotta wade through miles of posts of idiots yammering to maybe run into something of value--(or maybe not!). I turned 49 last month, I ain't got that kind of time left.

To return to the actual point of this thread. I think the reason for the scarcity of informative post is a function of two factors. First to say something intelligent you have to know something worth saying. Truth be told that knocks out a big chunk of people; the players on a football team are many, the coaches are few, the smart coaches are fewer still.

Secondly, and this is particularly true for really technical posts, you have to devote a lot of time to sitting down, collecting and organizing your thoughts, collect whatever graphics you are going to use, get them uploaded, write the post, edit it,… then your reward for doing so is being told by some pimple faced teen age kid with the cyber handle of "Dragon Demon Killer" that you do not know what the hell you are talking about.

That tends to discourage such endeavors. Okay then, enough on that topic, time for breakfast here in Taiwan.

Take care,
Brian