Does MMA inhibit objective thinking?

[Mas Judt]

Looking at the Eddie Bravo chain, going over his fake battle against a 'kung fu guy' - and how earnestdly the MMA folks on the board defended it - straining credulity well past the breaking point... it was obvious that some were p!mping this just to demonstrate to themselves how 'dumb' a CMA type is... and it was obvious that others were seeing things that were just not there in order to support an existing belief structure.

This demonstrates to me that MMA has entered it's own 'TMA' phase... where the objectivity of the fighting floor is replaced with blind obedience.

Comments?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Fighters no, Fans Yes.

[SevenStar]

No, I don't think so.

[lkfmdc]

The problem with most TMA students is that they are spoon fed stories about how great their masters and grand masters were as fighters, they are taught techniques which they are told are deadly, they learn forms which they are told are advanced, etc Sparring is secondary, at time even nonexistant, it is frequently quite restricted and more like point sparring

MMA people on the other hand hold up actual competition as the "achievement", the "top dog" in their gym is the guy/gal who competes, they do a lot of "alive" work so they know their own relative strength.... when you are kicked, punched, knee'ed, thrown, and submitted numerous times a week you don't have delussions of grandeur quite so much :p

Now, this would have been more interesting if you said PURE BJJ people, because many do not appreciate the role of striking in a fight....

[Shaolin Shi]

The problem with most TMA students is that they are spoon fed stories about how great their masters and grand masters were as fighters, they are taught techniques which they are told are deadly, they learn forms which they are told are advanced, etc Sparring is secondary, at time even nonexistant, it is frequently quite restricted and more like point sparring


Give it another generation or two...

I've already seen people in the grappling world saying things like "My teacher broke somebody's arm with this technique." You know they're not practicing that on the mat. So how long before nobody knows how to do certain techniques but they stand around saying "Blah blah blah was the deadliest fighter ever in the whole world and could break anybody's arm with somesuch move or another?"

TMA just has several hundred years head start is all.

[PangQuan]

good points in here.

i think another aspect that TMA has that MMA doesnt have is the actual understanding/misunderstandin of combat.

a lot of TMA guys have never been in a fight, and never will. Often times these guys simply dont actually understand that some of the things they may think or fantasize about combat just arent reality. these generally are the bunch that try to be all mystical, talk about how good dead guys WERE, and then try to hide behind the shadow of said dead men and ride the glory wave. In the end they just screw themselves, but often are mis led by a teacher into this process.

where as your average MMA guy has been in his fair share of highly pressurized training, fight simulation, and competition fighting. And also, alot of MMA guys have been in many real fights.

a lot of the MMA coaches are going into the gym with real life experience. It shows pretty quickly if someone knows what to look for.

thats not to say there arent TMA teachers with real experience, there are, but i think the ratio between how many TMA guys have the experience and knowledge of real fights or lots of competition compared to the MMA guys is very different.

over all you will find more MMA guys/coaches that have been round the block and back, where you find a majority of TMA guys never left thier front door step.

[Shaolinlueb]

rd's alias said fighters no fan boys yes.

i have to agree.

ross i am gladd my sifu taught me fighting 1 forms 2. no spoon feeding here. ;)

[Black Jack II]

I think that point has some clarity. It's not like its was not going to happen eventualy.


And also, alot of MMA guys have been in many real fights.

This part I would take a second look at, in what context, combative sport experiance or in some type of context where he was exposed to outside violent encounters?

cop, bouncer, gangster, thug, bad youth, bad area, military experiance...what have you. Even in those positions its not all the same.

[PangQuan]

i guess i should clarify.

by 'real fights' im basically covering anything that has to do with a fully resisitng opponent bent on KO, Submission, or actualy violence. in this case, more often than not, ring fights. but fights none the less.

The bonus also about a lot of MMA gyms, is that even if you have not ever been in a fight atmosphere you will be able to watch matches pretty frequently to get adjusted to the idea of what it takes to be in the ring before you actually get in there yourself.

to many TMA schools will never put thier students through that type of training. Sparring is often the max you will ever reach. Of course it fully depends on the type of sparring, but most of the time its so structured/limited, no face shots, no throws, etc...

[PangQuan]

granted a ring fight is going to be very different than a street fight.

i would still put my money on the guy with 10 ring fights vs the guy with nothing.

[MasterKiller]

Mas Judt is bad for the sport.

[SevenStar]

Give it another generation or two...

I've already seen people in the grappling world saying things like "My teacher broke somebody's arm with this technique." You know they're not practicing that on the mat. So how long before nobody knows how to do certain techniques but they stand around saying "Blah blah blah was the deadliest fighter ever in the whole world and could break anybody's arm with somesuch move or another?"

TMA just has several hundred years head start is all.

as long as competition thrives, it won't happen. competition will keep that in check. I have seen broken limbs in competition. It happens sometimes.

[Mas Judt]

All of this is stuff I agree with, but no one is addressing the inability of the MMA trained people on the board to recoginze the obvious 'work' of the Eddie Bravo vid. The desperation to support it that resulted in seeing things that just were not there, and ignoring things that were - which went counter to thier point.

Has the MMA doctrine created blinders?

[Knifefighter]

Give it another generation or two...

I've already seen people in the grappling world saying things like "My teacher broke somebody's arm with this technique." You know they're not practicing that on the mat.

In sub-grappling, BJJ, Sambo, and Judo the joint breaks are practiced at full intensity. The only difference between how they are done for real and how they are done in practice and competition is that the hold is released as soon as the opponent taps in practice and in comps.

If the opponent doesn't tap... snap.

So, yes, they are practicing that on the mats.

[SevenStar]

good points in here.

i think another aspect that TMA has that MMA doesnt have is the actual understanding/misunderstandin of combat.

a lot of TMA guys have never been in a fight, and never will. Often times these guys simply dont actually understand that some of the things they may think or fantasize about combat just arent reality. these generally are the bunch that try to be all mystical, talk about how good dead guys WERE, and then try to hide behind the shadow of said dead men and ride the glory wave. In the end they just screw themselves, but often are mis led by a teacher into this process.

where as your average MMA guy has been in his fair share of highly pressurized training, fight simulation, and competition fighting.

tma guys train for a possibility; mma guys train for an inevitability...

[Black Jack II]

I think the post was more in response to the mentality of mma at this stage. We all know, or hopefully know, that competive venues often help a martial art stay on course.

[Mas Judt]

For instance - KnifeFighter beleived it. Wholeheartedly. How could a man with his vast freefighting experience not recognize what someone like me, with much more modest (in volume) fight experience could clearly see?

[Ray Pina]

Looking at the Eddie Bravo chain, going over his fake battle against a 'kung fu guy' - and how earnestdly the MMA folks on the board defended it - straining credulity well past the breaking point... it was obvious that some were p!mping this just to demonstrate to themselves how 'dumb' a CMA type is... and it was obvious that others were seeing things that were just not there in order to support an existing belief structure.

This demonstrates to me that MMA has entered it's own 'TMA' phase... where the objectivity of the fighting floor is replaced with blind obedience.

Comments?

I don't really understand the question but.....


If you're entering the cage to fight, amatuer or professional ... or just fighting under rules that allow striking to the body and head while standing or while on the ground.... that means you are seriously studying ju-jitsu. If you are seriously studying ju-jitsu your mind is more dimensional than your average person. You understand flow, emptyness in the moment and exploding with entention on instinct. Instinct.

This can also just as easily be explored in training ones body to move efficiently as a striker.... no matter what style (hard or soft) one styles. Timing. Vision ... with more than the eyes.

People talk a lot of ****. You can do this or can't do that. This one style can do this but not that under x circumstances.

These styles are all tools to help one become free... they are not meant to solve the problems. You are!

For me, I found freedom in E-Chuan. And now Gracie Ju-Jitsu is something I will always study because it is just fun and I learn so much about myself training it. I miss it.

If you have people to train with, gobble it up while you can. It's a blessing.

[Knifefighter]

For instance - KnifeFighter beleived it. Wholeheartedly. How could a man with his vast freefighting experience not recognize what someone like me, with much more modest (in volume) fight experience could clearly see?

Anyone who has witnessed many challenge matches of strikers vs. grapplers will more than likely have seen fights that weren't much different than what happened in that clip... that's what made it seem as if it could have been real.

I've seen one guy quit after a single jab, another give up as soon as the fight hit the ground, several people who looked great doing warm up forms and then couldn't throw a single strike once the fight was on, several people get armlocked in less than 5 seconds after the fight started, etc., etc, etc. All scenarios that could have easily looked as if they had been made up... but they weren't.

[Mega-Foot]

So, with all that experience, of seeing strikers annihilate ground fighters, what in the world so dazzled you during the course of that video, that you were willing to throw all those memories out the window, and say: this looks real!?

I think you might be a little impressionable, my friend. You've watched striker after striker pound on grapplers, and one poorly produced, and dimly lit set from a raving degenerate and competitive ****sexual (professionally?), who actually wants to out-gay gays--this video changes history for you?

You must strengthen the mind before you can begin to strengthen the body.

"He who sees what he wants to see, might not see what's there. He who sees what's there, and yet does not see what it is he can forsee that he wishes to see, when he sees, cannot see what is there, for it cannot be seen."
--Grandmaster Ukeno.

[SifuAbel]

No, I don't think so.

Of course not , you were the one seeing swings where there were none. You got fooled and now you can't admit it.

It was a work, and a now a confirmed work. Yes, the jits people tried to cling to this like a baby to its mom. Then again, they tried to make that jumping monkey jits guys look legit too.

All this "TMA is this" and "MMA is that" is all masturbation. You either fight or you don't. I have witnessed the same suckage in both camps. MMA is MIXED RANGE TMA. One wouldn't exist without the other.

And to continue lumping the ones that fight with the ones that don't is pure lump rubbing.

:rolleyes:

There was one good thing about the ranking system the Japanese invented. People couldn't just take 6 months of something and go on talking and acting like they were the shiznit. "I'm a yellow belt " cut that **** right out. I see that in some MMA people all the time. They yap yap yap about what they do and how great they are, yet they totally suck. Some are totally brainwashed, just like in some TMA schools, that they are superior humans that can't be defeated.

Give it up, you're either a good fighter or you're not. Period. All this style nutrider humping is for the birds.

Note the sig:

[Knifefighter]

So, with all that experience, of seeing strikers annihilate ground fighters, what in the world so dazzled you during the course of that video, that you were willing to throw all those memories out the window, and say: this looks real!.

You've got it backwards. I trained at Torrance Gracie during the challenge years, so I had a chance to witness many challenge matches. It was the grapplers who annihilated the strikers.

[lkfmdc]

As has been said, break can happen if you don't tap, sometimes they happen because people don't tap in time, I've seen breaks in compettion and a few in classes, been on the receving end of a few injuries myself :p

I honestly believe if you went back in time to the period when there were constant challenges and lots of actual fighting in TCMA, you'd have seen a lot less variation in the systems, a lot less crap.... back then it wasn't considered competition, but it darn well served the same purpose..

[Mas Judt]

I've seen just as much foolishness KF - yet was not fooled by this 'work.' I'm not sure that is a valid excuse, if anything, it should have made it more obvious.

But since the actor moved in a way familiar to you (a BJJ student probably, with no striking experience) you fell for the fraud, instead of seeing what it was - a guy who did not even know how to pretend what he was.

I remember preparing to watch the first UFC - my money was on the grapplers. Why? In the industrialized West our 'striking arts' people had no idea how to deal with throwing skills - good or bad. I won many a match because people had delusions as to what a fight was. Things have grown since then in many positive ways, yet I see the MMA world slowly falling into the trap all combat sports fall into... let me name some names: fencing anf judo.

Can anyone explain the trap to me?

[Mega-Foot]

Mass popularization=rules that make the sport less dangerous, so that the fan base and interested parties, who would train the art if it wasn't so dangerous, are willing to sign a contract and learn the techniques that have made their TV heroes popular.

That's why it pays to train in a traditional art, which does not sell out like MMA, or have it's practitioners rolling around in the dirt like animals. I mean, we roll around in the dirt when we're running the gauntlet, but it's one of the obstacles, and trains for real life scenarios--crawling under fences, etc.

[Mas Judt]

Wrong. Try again.

You can figure this out by reading the book 'Secrets of the Sword' - although the process is somewhat different because of the nature of the art.

It is a well established fact that a combat sport aspect produces more results more consistently. So go to the end of the line M-F.

[Knifefighter]

But since the actor moved in a way familiar to you (a BJJ student probably, with no striking experience) you fell for the fraud, instead of seeing what it was - a guy who did not even know how to pretend what he was.

LOL... really?

So, in the first 5 seconds of the infamous MMA vs. kung fu, can you recognize who is the striker and who is the grappler?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqD8Odaebw

[rogue]

Wrong. Try again.

You can figure this out by reading the book 'Secrets of the Sword' - although the process is somewhat different because of the nature of the art.

It is a well established fact that a combat sport aspect produces more results more consistently. So go to the end of the line M-F.

Good book and good point.

A question, does the fact that a method produces a more consistent outcome eventually work against it?

[SevenStar]

Of course not , you were the one seeing swings where there were none. You got fooled and now you can't admit it.


yeah it looks staged. but that guy was definitely trying to punch, regardless of the situation.

not surprisingly, your head is up your arse again. I never said I thought it was real. BUT, that odesn't change the fact that his lowered hand pulled back.

[Mega-Foot]

We can only tell that, because someone said a BJJ instructor was delivering a sermon during a seminar, and all the students are facing the guy in the white shirt.

Funny though. The only strikes thrown are by a BJJ guy, and he's kicking someone on the ground. Only goes to show--never hit the ground with anyone who outnumbers you. You'll just get kicked in the head.

Check.
Mate.

Your move.

[Knifefighter]

That's why it pays to train in a traditional art,

i.e. a system developed by a bunch of theoretical non-fighters based on how they think fighting is supposed to be rather than how it really is, whose participants pretend to train against compliant partners.

[Mega-Foot]

I've never had a compliant partner outside the bedroom.

In my fights, my opponents never even see it coming. As soon as they do, it's too late. Fight won.

Rio Bravo, or Johnny Bravo, or whatever his name is--he wouldn't have seen the first punch thrown, nor the kick. By then, he'd be dead.

[Water Dragon]

I don't think MMA inhibits objective thinking, but I do think martial arts forums do.

[Merryprankster]

I'm guessing Mega Foot has never had a compliant partner IN the bedroom either.

[Water Dragon]

unless of course he likes to be the bi+ch!

[unkokusai]

I'm guessing Mega Foot has never had a compliant partner IN the bedroom either.

Of course he has, it has just always been himself!:eek:

[SifuAbel]

LOL... really?

So, in the first 5 seconds of the infamous MMA vs. kung fu,

You mean the pro fighter vs. boob fight.

[Mas Judt]

Rogue - by consistent, I'm referring to consistently producing people who have a good percentage chance of pulling off thier technique against an equally skilled player.

KF - I'm referring to your ardent defence and building a case for what was happening - when in fact NONE of it was happening. Posting a boob fight doesn't really help. I've had plenty of matches with people who beleived in thier 'art' versus thier training - and lately they seem to be claiming MMA. Which is funny.

[PangQuan]

tma guys train for a possibility; mma guys train for an inevitability...

thats a good way to put it.

[SifuAbel]

No it isn't. Its masturbation. Like somebody dreamed this stuff up in their backyard.

Sorry, but no, its another attempt at self aggrandizement. :rolleyes:

As if MMA guys were some ubermensch race of super beings. Bull****

[SifuAbel]

i.e. a system developed by a bunch of theoretical non-fighters based on how they think fighting is supposed to be rather than how it really is, whose participants pretend to train against compliant partners.

You are confusing what goes on today with the BS family kiddie day cares and the the real fighting reality of its inception.

You are deluded to the MAX if you think it was just all some picnic. Your colon is bursting with bull****.

Note the sig:

[Dragon Warrior]

We can only tell that, because someone said a BJJ instructor was delivering a sermon during a seminar, and all the students are facing the guy in the white shirt.



Coming from a guy who calls himself "grandmaster sensei."

[Dragon Warrior]

I've never had a compliant partner outside the bedroom.

In my fights, my opponents never even see it coming. As soon as they do, it's too late. Fight won.

Rio Bravo, or Johnny Bravo, or whatever his name is--he wouldn't have seen the first punch thrown, nor the kick. By then, he'd be dead.

What do you mean by this? You just sucker punch people? You sneak up behind them and attack? If that is the case you arent a good fighter. You're more of a criminal than anything.

[Ray Pina]

What do you mean by this? You just sucker punch people? You sneak up behind them and attack? If that is the case you arent a good fighter. You're more of a criminal than anything.

I've come to learn, that the times I was most wise to engage in a fight, I felt like a criminal... I knew before we started that I would beat the guy. That my fist, elbow or knee would crash into his head and/or torso to an extent that they would submit. And everytime I feel a little like, "why did I have to go and do that for."

At the same time, I've been on the receiving end. I've looked across at a man that had more of it than me that day and just had his way with me. Beat me.

But that's better than losing foolishly to someone you knew you had not only more of "it", but better technique too. Those are the hard ones.

Either way, the type of straight up, chin to chin fighting that you imply to respect, is foolish. If you truly put yourself out there, you do so cautiously. Hand to hand, blade to blade, gun to gun, missle to missle.... there is no difference: **** up the other guy as badly and as quickly as possible while remianing as safe as possible.

If I really had beef with someone they wouldn't see me coming... but I'm sure I'd torture them too.:)

[unkokusai]

As if MMA guys were some ubermensch race of super beings. Bull****



Yeah! Everyone knows its cartwheeling demo-gods like you who are the real supermen! :rolleyes:

[Ultimatewingchun]

There's a lot of bull5hit going on on both sides of this....

1) Lots of TMA people who've bought the hype that sparring is secondary to all the other aspects of training, and therefore they don't spend enough time with all-out hard contact sparring - including against guys who are going to try and take them down and continue the fight from there with their grappling skills...

2) Lots of MMA people who think that they're the end-all-and-be-all when in fact a big portion of what they do they'd be crazy to try in many a street fight type scenario...precisely because they've bought into the BJJ hype that striking is secondary - so their standup skills are underdeveloped.

Think I'll go check out another thread. :rolleyes: :cool:

[Royal Dragon]

It's the guys who play all the ranges that know where the money is.

[SifuAbel]

Yeah! Everyone knows its cartwheeling demo-gods like you who are the real supermen! :rolleyes:


Oh yes, we all know the real supermen hide in the shadows too afraid to even mention what city they live in. :rolleyes: For fear that the mass of disgruntled challengers would show up at the door in a line a mile long. YOU have no face. You have no name. You have no body. You are nothing. Nothing except being the poster child for a deluded runaway ego that had a short run of success back in college 20 years ago and is now a rotund powderpuff that would probably pop like a balloon at the first sign of pressure. You are a fat Elvis.

God, what a little toad you probably are IRL.

BTW, I still spar REGULARLY. With hard contact. You?

[unkokusai]

BTW, I still spar REGULARLY. With hard contact. You?

Oh gosh, you 'spar' regularly! That is amazing! You must do, like, a hundred cartwheels a day! That 'sparring stuff sounds pretty serious, I wouldn't want to mess with that. Whoo, man, no wonder no one takes you up on your offer of not coming to visit you after you cower out of agreed meetings to go meet with them.

You are a scary, cartwheeling monster.

[SifuAbel]

I'll meet with you anytime you like, poindexter.

Pft, If I had a nickle for everyone that threatened to "find" me I'd be rich. And just who did I agree to meet and then cower away from? I've been waiting for a LOOOOOOOOOOOOng time. The latest was a guy that wanted to tear me limb from limb only to be serenaded to the tune of, "oh, I got bronchitis for a whole month, we'll have to postpone.........two months later." :rolleyes:

You just love to wank to the tune of "the beat goes on."

You were born to the tune of, "He's a real nowhere man, sitting in his nowhere land , making all his nowhere plans, for nobody."

[unkokusai]

I'll meet with you anytime you like, poindexter.

Hey, don't scare me like that! I've seen what your devastating skills have done to others you stayed away from. Just calm down man, no need to get crazy now...:eek:

[unkokusai]

I've been waiting for a LOOOOOOOOOOOOng time.

LOL! You sure have.....

[SifuAbel]

Hey, don't scare me like that! I've seen what your devastating skills have done to others you stayed away from. Just calm down man, no need to get crazy now...:eek:


Babel fish :Translation(UNKOKUSAI TO ENGLISH): " I have nothing real to say. Just some pseudo wit to cover the fact that as an aged out once-was I cannot actually commit to anything since its been 20 years since my college glory days. And now, I'm a self loathing retard that would get my ass handed to me by a bag lady. "

[SifuAbel]

LOL! You sure have.....

LOL @ unkuretardsai. He lives vicariously through others.

Nobody needs my expressed permission to show up. No "mother may I" is needed.

I'm in Riverside, Ca. Where are you?

So who am I hiding from?