Kung Fu in MMA

[Water Dragon]

Check this guy out, I was pretty impressed. The Kung Fu guy has real good stand up. The skinny Mexican guy is my old coach, Miguel Torres.

round 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rnEakWrCNo&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fprofile%2Emyspace%2Ecom%2Findex% 2Ecfm%3Ffuseaction%3Duser%2Eviewprofile%26friendid %3D170467588%26MyToken%3Dfb1bc567%2Ddb48%2D4451%2D b0d

round 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_ah896AyVY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fprofile%2Emyspace%2Ecom%2Findex% 2Ecfm%3Ffuseaction%3Duser%2Eviewprofile%26friendid %3D170467588%26MyToken%3Dfb1bc567%2Ddb48%2D4451%2D b0d

round 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6G8gEYNPBY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fprofile%2Emyspace%2Ecom%2Findex% 2Ecfm%3Ffuseaction%3Duser%2Eviewprofile%26friendid %3D170467588%26MyToken%3Dfb1bc567%2Ddb48%2D4451%2D b0d

[LeeCasebolt]

I wish, for Torres' sake, there were more opportunities for smaller fighters on the big stage.

Charles Wilson (the kung fu guy) has a 4-5 pro mma record, 8-0 as an amateur. Or so sayeth FCFighter.com, anyway. He would've done himself a favor to use the side kick more and the crescent/axe kick less, but it was a great performance against a guy who's 31-1.

[Black Jack II]

Miguel Torres is supposed to be the shiznit. I have heard a lot of good things about him.

[Etrikkin]

I've watch mma stuff for awhile now.
Mostly main stream fights.
Anyway, I can't figure out why the don't let kung fu of any type in the ring more often. i mean hell mma is about as close as you can get to a street fight with a reff lol.
By mma i mean UFC, Pride and other main stages.

[Water Dragon]

Wilson did extremely well against Torres. You really have to see some of Miguel's earlier fights to realize how good Wilson is.

I'm kinda suprised this hasn't generated more discussion. 8 out of ten threads here are CMA vs. MMA, and here's a video fo two guys at the top of their game showing just that.

*shrug*

[BlueTravesty]

I'm waiting for someone to claim it isn't kung fu that helped him last as long as he did. Like Shaolin friggin' chuan fa isn't about as kung fu as it gets. Though really, if people can tout Jason DeLucia as being a "kung fu expert" then I don't see why they would have any problem with calling this guy a kung fu practitioner.

At any rate, it's obvious that he cross-trained in grappling, which is commendable. Everyone who plans on fighting should, and though he lost, he had a nice sprawl. It just goes to show that the only way to "anti-grapple" is to train in grapplng. I loved how Torres went down and Wilson took the sensible route and didn't fall on his opponent... at least till he got taken down :P Nice stuff

On a side note, that "slightly tilted to the side stance" is awfully similar to how my Sifu sparred (*sniff* I miss kung fu :( ) except he tended to keep his guard a bit higher and closer to the side of his face.

[Black Jack II]

I'm kinda suprised this hasn't generated more discussion. 8 out of ten threads here are CMA vs. MMA, and here's a video fo two guys at the top of their game showing just that

Get it moved to the main forum and I bet dollars to donuts you will see more response. I think some will refrain from here because the title.

[LeeCasebolt]

Anyway, I can't figure out why the don't let kung fu of any type in the ring more often.

You can't let people in if they don't ask in. There's been a dearth of CMA competitors in MMA for the last thirteen years, a trend which is now reversing itself.

[diego]

good fight

[TaichiMantis]

Sifu Wilson is in my kung fu family, Tsai's Shaolin Chuan Fa of Chicago. I would love to see him fight! Thanks for posting this. Best wishes to him in his future matches!

[Royal Dragon]

I got my start at Tsai Fu as well. It's good to see one of the family doing so well!!

[SevenStar]

my old cma teacher was in tsai's lineage.

[SevenStar]

I'm waiting for someone to claim it isn't kung fu that helped him last as long as he did. Like Shaolin friggin' chuan fa isn't about as kung fu as it gets. Though really, if people can tout Jason DeLucia as being a "kung fu expert" then I don't see why they would have any problem with calling this guy a kung fu practitioner.

nobody would say kung fu didn't help him. What we talk about is when you take a guy like cung le, who trained tkd and has wrestled his entire life, in addition to training cma and you guys try to say he is a pure cma guy - he is not. doesn't mean he didn't use his kung fu at all, but tkd + wrestling + kung fu doesn't = pure kung fu.

[SevenStar]

I've watch mma stuff for awhile now.
Mostly main stream fights.
Anyway, I can't figure out why the don't let kung fu of any type in the ring more often. i mean hell mma is about as close as you can get to a street fight with a reff lol.
By mma i mean UFC, Pride and other main stages.

They don't let kung fu in the ring because most Kung fu guys are too deadly to compete in mma. My opinion, anyway.

[SifuAbel]

Troll, a mod troll at that. :rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

nobody would say kung fu didn't help him. What we talk about is when you take a guy like cung le, who trained tkd and has wrestled his entire life, in addition to training cma and you guys try to say he is a pure cma guy - he is not. doesn't mean he didn't use his kung fu at all, but tkd + wrestling + kung fu doesn't = pure kung fu.


Is there an official resume? Or are you just relegating his cma to the back of the bus?

[PangQuan]

http://www.cungle.com/sv/html/website/WebSite_6/m_main.jsp?&page=biography.html&id=6

you will notice his interests are as follows

movies, MMA, BJJ, Sanshou.....i think he put it to the back of the bus

[PangQuan]

although i would say its because he has been a sanshou champ for so long... he needs something new.

thats MMA, and well why not use BJJ since its proven effectivness is already present.

cung le is my personal favorit sport fighter, i enjoyed watching his 2 mma fights and all his sanshou stuff.

cant wait to see him go for a 3rd MMA match up. hopefully something heavy

[PangQuan]

Wilson did real well.

anyone know where he crosstrained for the ground? or what system?

[SevenStar]

Is there an official resume? Or are you just relegating his cma to the back of the bus?

who cares about his resume? is he PURE kung fu? even you aren't that anal. He's definitely a cma guy, but he's not a pure cma like you guys seem to claim if he's trained arts other than cma.

[SevenStar]

http://www.cungle.com/sv/html/website/WebSite_6/m_main.jsp?&page=biography.html&id=6

you will notice his interests are as follows

movies, MMA, BJJ, Sanshou.....i think he put it to the back of the bus

wow...pwnd.:p

[PangQuan]

BTW i generally dont count Cung Le's third match cause it was called for a cut.

although technically i guess his MMA record is 3-0

so i should say i cant wait for his 4th match?:rolleyes:

[Flying-Monkey]

It was an ok fight. I don't know what his corner was saying to him. He could have won if he had some decent punching and kicking ability. The MMA guy barely won that fight. He kind of should be ashamed, especially after how much bad mouthing MMA guys do to KF.

[SevenStar]

TMA guys have been mouth bashing mma for years as well. I have old insude kung fu mags from like 1994 with articles explaining the easy cma way to defeat a grappler's "tackle". The bashing has definitely gone both ways. I actually hear more bashing from tma guys than mma guys.

[NJM]

TMA guys have been mouth bashing mma for years as well. I have old insude kung fu mags from like 1994 with articles explaining the easy cma way to defeat a grappler's "tackle". The bashing has definitely gone both ways. I actually hear more bashing from tma guys than mma guys.

Maybe back then, but nowadays TMA and MMA bash each other pretty much equally.

[SevenStar]

Is there an official resume? Or are you just relegating his cma to the back of the bus?

I haven't found a resume - yeah I looked, just for you - but I found that he started tkd when he was 10 and trained it for almost a year. He then wrestled from high school through college competitively - actually through the present since he still uses it in san shou. He started TKD again along with "vietnamese kung fu" when he was 19.

[Water Dragon]

It was an ok fight. I don't know what his corner was saying to him. He could have won if he had some decent punching and kicking ability. The MMA guy barely won that fight. He kind of should be ashamed, especially after how much bad mouthing MMA guys do to KF.


Yes, Miguel should be ashamed, especially with a 41-1-0 record. Thing is, to prove Sev's point above, this guy is probably one of the most humble people I have ever met. I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone, and yet, he gets bashed here by a nobody. Unfortunately, I've found this to be typical. The only thing that fight proved was how good Charles Wilson is. I was stunned when I saw Miguel get knocked down twice in the first round. Torres is known for his stand up just as much as his ground work.

[Flying-Monkey]

Yes, Miguel should be ashamed, especially with a 41-1-0 record. Thing is, to prove Sev's point above, this guy is probably one of the most humble people I have ever met. I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone, and yet, he gets bashed here by a nobody. Unfortunately, I've found this to be typical. The only thing that fight proved was how good Charles Wilson is. I was stunned when I saw Miguel get knocked down twice in the first round. Torres is known for his stand up just as much as his ground work.

Yes. With a 41-1-0 record and barely beating a guy (4-5) who has pretty average kicks, he should be. Was this a three round match? If it was and the match continued the way it was going, who would win? It would have been up for grabs.

[Flying-Monkey]

TMA guys have been mouth bashing mma for years as well. I have old insude kung fu mags from like 1994 with articles explaining the easy cma way to defeat a grappler's "tackle". The bashing has definitely gone both ways. I actually hear more bashing from tma guys than mma guys.

Ok. That is one article. It was probably written by a master who never fought in his life. You know as well as I know that there isn't an easy way to defeat a grapple's "tackle". I think I remember an article that was somewhere along those lines. I laughed at it then.
Go to a MMA forum. Go to bullshido (I wish back when it was mcdojos). Read what they have to say about kung fu.

[Flying-Monkey]

Don't get me wrong. I am kind of happy that MMA guys and BBJ guys are calling Kung fu guys out. It is cleaning out all of the bums and weak styles. A lot of that crap has to go.

I am just talking about the fact that when I walk into a school and they ask what do I do and I say kung fu and they say "Oh... That's cool... Uh have you used it in a fight?" Mind you, they are being smug about it. Some have said it is a waste of time (TMA).

[Water Dragon]

Yes. With a 41-1-0 record and barely beating a guy (4-5) who has pretty average kicks, he should be. Was this a three round match? If it was and the match continued the way it was going, who would win? It would have been up for grabs.

I guess that's your opinion. After training with the guy for 2 1/2 years, I'd say your opinion is way off the mark. Here's a highlight video that has some of Miguel's stand up. To me, that shows how good Wilson really is. He impressed the heck outta me. You kinda just insulted the both of them with your comment.

Torres Highlights

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XR_mxNr-1k&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fprofile%2Emyspace%2Ecom%2Findex% 2Ecfm%3Ffuseaction%3Duser%2Eviewprofile%26friendid %3D170467588%26MyToken%3D854c5d12%2De128%2D456c%2D 84b

[Vash]

. . . when did it get so negative? Is a new forum name that horrible?

[Water Dragon]

who cares about his resume? is he PURE kung fu? even you aren't that anal. He's definitely a cma guy, but he's not a pure cma like you guys seem to claim if he's trained arts other than cma.

I never understood this argument on either side. Cung Le trains San Shou, he's a San Shou guy. To me, it's really that simple.

[SevenStar]

I never understood this argument on either side. Cung Le trains San Shou, he's a San Shou guy. To me, it's really that simple.

yeah, you would think. But san shou = chinese, so once again, he is a pure cma... it's ludicrous.

[Water Dragon]

Nobody's pure anything in this arena. I've done Tai Chi, Shuai Chiao, Muay Thai, Boxing, and BJJ, but if you ask me what I am, I'm a Judo guy. Cause that's what I do.

[SevenStar]

Maybe back then, but nowadays TMA and MMA bash each other pretty much equally.

No, they don't really. And I am referring to real life encounters, not the web. when I first started at my current school, they were really interested that I trained kung fu - they wanted to see it. As far as they are concerned, if you can make it work, it's good. However, at my CMA school, they made me and another guy stop training grappling during the open mat sessions. consequently, we stopped going to the open mat sessions and started using some space in the field house of a nearby university.

When talking to a cashier who recognized us from the mma school, we invited him to come train sometime. He declined and said he trained a traditional art and could not be taken to the ground.

I was once told by a cma "boxers have no skill, they just stand and slug each other"

I was once told that after three months of grappling any CMA would be better than a bjj blue belt.

Heck, just TODAY - like two hours ago - my friend said she decided to learn kung fu and not "that cagefighting stuff" that I do, because kung fu is more deadly. Seriously.

[SevenStar]

Nobody's pure anything in this arena. I've done Tai Chi, Shuai Chiao, Muay Thai, Boxing, and BJJ, but if you ask me what I am, I'm a Judo guy. Cause that's what I do.

yeah. it really should be that simple.

[Flying-Monkey]

No, they don't really. And I am referring to real life encounters, not the web. when I first started at my current school, they were really interested that I trained kung fu - they wanted to see it. As far as they are concerned, if you can make it work, it's good. However, at my CMA school, they made me and another guy stop training grappling during the open mat sessions. consequently, we stopped going to the open mat sessions and started using some space in the field house of a nearby university.

When talking to a cashier who recognized us from the mma school, we invited him to come train sometime. He declined and said he trained a traditional art and could not be taken to the ground.

I was once told by a cma "boxers have no skill, they just stand and slug each other"

I was once told that after three months of grappling any CMA would be better than a bjj blue belt.

Heck, just TODAY - like two hours ago - my friend said she decided to learn kung fu and not "that cagefighting stuff" that I do, because kung fu is more deadly. Seriously.

I see your point.

[Flying-Monkey]

I guess that's your opinion. After training with the guy for 2 1/2 years, I'd say your opinion is way off the mark. Here's a highlight video that has some of Miguel's stand up. To me, that shows how good Wilson really is. He impressed the heck outta me. You kinda just insulted the both of them with your comment.

Torres Highlights

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XR_mxNr-1k&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fprofile%2Emyspace%2Ecom%2Findex% 2Ecfm%3Ffuseaction%3Duser%2Eviewprofile%26friendid %3D170467588%26MyToken%3D854c5d12%2De128%2D456c%2D 84b

After watching that HL clip, he should very much be ashamed with his display in that fight.

Wilson was not that special. He was ok. I give him props for lasting. However, he is an ok fighter 4-5. Actually that is not ok. He is below 50%. So do we have to make a special standard for Kung fu? Losing more than you win is not good in any sport.

How am I insulting Torres when I am basically saying that he is better than what he displayed. He should went through him. He has more than four times more ring exp. and more than ten times the wins.

[Knifefighter]

Nice standup by the KF guy, at least at the beginning. He kind of lost confidence as the fight progressed and he kept getting dominated on the ground.

Also, nice open guard kicks by Torres. Very technical for those who understand effective kicks from the open guard.

Looks like Torres might want to tighten up his standup game a bit... got surprised by a couple of side kicks. You can see in his highlight vid that he maybe opens up a bit too much/soon in his standup attacks.

Other than that... good fight. The KF guy had a lot of heart.

[Water Dragon]

Nice standup by the KF guy,

I predict this will show up in the sig line of 75 % of the posters on this board.

[SifuAbel]

yep, it getting quite cold in hell.

[Water Dragon]

How am I insulting Torres when I am basically saying that he is better than what he displayed. He should went through him. He has more than four times more ring exp. and more than ten times the wins.

Wilson is also 8-0 amateur. The guy may had started off against very tough opponenents, or maybe he need to get some 'ring sense' at a pro level. Whatever the case, I think his performance was much more than average against Miguel.

It looks like you're downplaying both fighter's performance by calling the Kung Fu guy 'average' and saying Miguel should be 'ashamed.' I've seen a lot of fights, and that was a hella good fight between two tough opponents. But, that's my opinion, and you're entitled to yours.

[Knifefighter]

I predict this will show up in the sig line of 75 % of the posters on this board.

Just watched the clips again. Looks more like a mix of TKD and wrestling than KF... head back, hands low, ax kicks, spinning back kicks, good wrestling sprawls.

Definitely saved by the bell in the first round.

[SifuAbel]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAOOOOOOOOOOOOO, I knew it was too good to be true. I'll keep the sig anyways.

It was an "ok" bout. Just OK.

[Water Dragon]

I dunno. The guy is claiming Shaolin. Says he has a Wing Chun background too.

http://martialarts.about.com/od/martialartstrainingtips/a/transitionmma.htm

[Knifefighter]

It was an "ok" bout. Just OK.


LOL @ "just OK" towards just about the only KF person to ever put up a decent fight against an MMA fighter. I guess "just OK" is as good as it gets.

[SifuAbel]

LOL @ your myopia.

The MMA was just "OK" as well.

Don't tell me he's supposed to be some ubermencsh. :rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

LOL @ "just OK" towards just about the only KF person to ever put up a decent fight against an MMA fighter. I guess "just OK" is as good as it gets.


There are quite a few that have put up a descent fight. Strawmen outnumber your troops 3 to 1.

[Water Dragon]

What are you trying to say Abel? The guy's ranked number 1 in the country and 3 in the world in the Shoot 135 pound division. He's taken gold at the Arnold Classic and Gracie Nationals, and Silver at the Pan Ams. I wouldn't call anyone a superman, but how is this just 'OK'?

[SifuAbel]

Dude, thats nice, but this fight was "ok". Nothing to base a religion on.

[Knifefighter]

There are quite a few that have put up a descent fight. Strawmen outnumber your troops 3 to 1.

Maybe you could point us to some of those, huh?

[Shaolinlueb]

i wasnt impressed with this fight that much. the kung fu guy did decent considering all the flaming from mma guys. i expect more out of these "mma" guys that everyone talks about. the kung fu guy could have utilized his stances more to prevent from being taken down as much. maybe even use his leg and hip strength to pic that mo fo up and slam him down hard.

[Knifefighter]

i wasnt impressed with this fight that much. the kung fu guy did decent considering all the flaming from mma guys. i expect more out of these "mma" guys that everyone talks about. the kung fu guy could have utilized his stances more to prevent from being taken down as much. maybe even use his leg and hip strength to pic that mo fo up and slam him down hard.

LOL @ using stances to stop takedows. Stop into a wrestling club and see how that works out for you.

[Flying-Monkey]

LOL @ using stances to stop takedows. Stop into a wrestling club and see how that works out for you.

Stance doesn't mean standing in a horse stance and letting a guy try to take you down.

[Knifefighter]

Stance doesn't mean standing in a horse stance and letting a guy try to take you down.

What does it mean?

[Water Dragon]

Dude, thats nice, but this fight was "ok". Nothing to base a religion on.

I don't think anyone was implying that, Abel.

[PangQuan]

i think this is just the beginning of a coming trend.

there are more kungfu guys mixing it up with the mma crowd than some might think.

anyone who has studied CMA in depth at all knows there are deffinate effective qualities to CMA.

its just a matter of time before other people notice this. as well as kungfu guys utilizing this in an mma environment.

i see the kungfu/mma cross over as an inevitability.

almost seemed that wilson may have just had a flavor torrez wasnt quite used to, torrez just had to figure out the equation and solve the problem with a submission.

[unkokusai]

i wasnt impressed with this fight that much. the kung fu guy did decent considering all the flaming from mma guys. i expect more out of these "mma" guys that everyone talks about. the kung fu guy could have utilized his stances more to prevent from being taken down as much. maybe even use his leg and hip strength to pic that mo fo up and slam him down hard.

..........LOL!

[SifuAbel]

Maybe you could point us to some of those, huh?

Why? They've already been discussed to death. And always to the same conclusion.

"He may have studied KF for 1000 years but since he took two weeks of BJJ it doesn't count." :rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

i think this is just the beginning of a coming trend.

there are more kungfu guys mixing it up with the mma crowd than some might think.

anyone who has studied CMA in depth at all knows there are deffinate effective qualities to CMA.

its just a matter of time before other people notice this. as well as kungfu guys utilizing this in an mma environment.

i see the kungfu/mma cross over as an inevitability.

almost seemed that wilson may have just had a flavor torrez wasnt quite used to, torrez just had to figure out the equation and solve the problem with a submission.


what he said...........

[unkokusai]

Why? They've already been discussed to death. And always to the same conclusion.

"He may have studied KF for 1000 years but since he took two weeks of BJJ it doesn't count." :rolleyes:



No end to the 'ol insecurity, and its inevitable byproducts.:rolleyes:

[Black Jack II]

He may have studied KF for 1000 years but since he took two weeks of BJJ it doesn't count

I want to mee the cat who studied kung fu for a thousand years. I bet he has one hell of a supplement program to be that old.:eek:

[Royal Dragon]

Ginseng, all he takes is Ginseng!!

[SevenStar]

Why? They've already been discussed to death. And always to the same conclusion.

"He may have studied KF for 1000 years but since he took two weeks of BJJ it doesn't count." :rolleyes:

so name someone besides cung le, who has 20 years of wrestling. I tried to say delucia, who has a decent record, and every cma guy on this forum said he wasn't a real cma

[SevenStar]

i think this is just the beginning of a coming trend.

there are more kungfu guys mixing it up with the mma crowd than some might think.

anyone who has studied CMA in depth at all knows there are deffinate effective qualities to CMA.

its just a matter of time before other people notice this. as well as kungfu guys utilizing this in an mma environment.

i see the kungfu/mma cross over as an inevitability.


it will never happen. kung fu will always be in the minority within the mma venue. it doesn't have to be, but it will be.

[Royal Dragon]

I don't buy that. I think it is just a matter of time before you start seeing good CMA in MMA. It's going to happen slowly, but it will happen.

If you think about it, CMA needs to do 2 things, invert the amount of time spent on forms with two man work and Sparr more, and work thier anti takedown skills more.

That is all that is needed, everythig else is there. We got striking, Kicking joint manipulations, throwing, ground and pound, it's all there. It just needs to be unzipped and worked.

We even have our own venues to hone skills in prior to entering the MMA venues.

[Knifefighter]

.

If you think about it, CMA needs to do 2 things,

Get rid of forms altogether.
Learn groundfighting.

Anti-grappling won't get you far in MMA.

[Royal Dragon]

I don'tthink yoou need to get rid of forms all together...although originally forms were only for the trainers to organise a curriculem. Also were more ment to maintian skills than develop them in the first place.

Kung Fu has grapeling, and throwing, just not the ground stufff like BJJ.

[lkfmdc]

Get rid of forms altogether.
Learn groundfighting.

Anti-grappling won't get you far in MMA.

I agree that forms won't get you anywhere as far as learning to fight

I agree you need to learn ground fighting

But let's stop to discuss "anti grappling" for a minute

Teh term comes from "Kahm Na" (translated often as grappling) and "FAAN Kahm Na" (which is thus translated as "anti grappling")

The "FAAN" means to reverse or counter. Sure, mired in mysticism and BS it becomes all so much crap

In practical application, much of it is standard grappling fare

1. hand fighting
2. pummeling
3. hip movement
4. level control
5. snap downs

IE, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater

[golden arhat]

I don't buy that. I think it is just a matter of time before you start seeing good CMA in MMA. It's going to happen slowly, but it will happen.

If you think about it, CMA needs to do 2 things, invert the amount of time spent on forms with two man work and Sparr more, and work thier anti takedown skills more.

That is all that is needed, everythig else is there. We got striking, Kicking joint manipulations, throwing, ground and pound, it's all there. It just needs to be unzipped and worked.

We even have our own venues to hone skills in prior to entering the MMA venues.

i think all CMA would bbenefit if sparring was done san da style with smaller gloves

u are right we have alot of good stuff here and we are too caught up in forms and technicalities if we trained harder and more realisticly alot of the applications might end up working outside of the kwoon

basically everything we think we know in cma should be stripped apart and put back together again to make it more relevant
(a good example would be alan orr's wing chun club here in the uk what e did woas take mma takedowns etc and take most of the boxing away replacing it with wing chun)
we need to take the application 2 man sets with a pinch of salt also
i think we kid ourselves too much when it comes to them
so yeah
thats how i think cma could have a real future as a "martial" art
otherwise its doomed

[golden arhat]

Get rid of forms altogether.
Learn groundfighting.

Anti-grappling won't get you far in MMA.

yeah that too
aniti grappling has its place and i certainly find it useful

i think forms need ALOT less emphasis
and when performed should be done kinda like shadow boxing is done more as a tool to help when u fight than something to show off with

[SifuAbel]

There is no such thing as anti-grappling.

[SifuAbel]

Form work is a tool. Like any tool, its used for a purpose. Getting rid of it, or not, is a moot point.

Because:

What CMA REALLYneeds is people who are not 3 hour a week hobbyists to do it seriously enough to compete. If its not your "job" or even a second "job" then don't expect to be effective.

Note my sig:

[Black Jack II]

If its not your "job" or even a second "job" then don't expect to be effective

Wow rudy, that has to be the most honest example of cma I have ever heard and also at the same time the most ****ing.

If you find that to be the case, why on anyone's count, would anyone ever, in a million years, ever bother wasting time on something that is so a$$backwards that you have to make it your "job" to be effective in self defense.

[MasterKiller]

Form work is a tool. Like any tool, its used for a purpose. Getting rid of it, or not, is a moot point.

Because:

What CMA REALLYneeds is people who are not 3 hour a week hobbyists to do it seriously enough to compete. If its not your "job" or even a second "job" then don't expect to be effective.

Note my sig:

MMA guys who train 5 or 6 hours a week are ready to compete in a relatively short time. Why can't CMA just ditch the out-dated weapons, ditch the forms, and follow this model? It's the technique that is most important, right? So if a new training model comes along to develop the technique faster, why not adopt it?

[SifuAbel]

Wow rudy, that has to be the most honest example of cma I have ever heard and also at the same time the most ****ing.

If you find that to be the case, why on anyone's count, would anyone ever, in a million years, ever bother wasting time on something that is so a$$backwards that you have to make it your "job" to be effective in self defense.Its English , learn it.

We're not talking about self defense, we are talking about being effective in high level MA competition. RBSD ****.

[SifuAbel]

MMA guys who train 5 or 6 hours a week are ready to compete in a relatively short time. Why can't CMA just ditch the out-dated weapons, ditch the forms, and follow this model? It's the technique that is most important, right? So if a new training model comes along to develop the technique faster, why not adopt it?


Maybe in small town venues, but not in the major leagues. 5- 6 hours a week is nothing. As it is, you've described someone doing twice as much as what I was mentioning.

As it is, the "model" is about conditioning. Doing a form vs. jumping rope vs. climbing vs. farm work. whatever.

People who do form work to the exclusion of everything else are to be deemed obsessive and are not training properly. Its just as much an obsession to view them as the actual "model" for CMA practice. There is nothing in the new model that wasn't in the old one. Bag work? Sparring? Conditioning? Xyience?

Its only a matter of time. People in CMA with fighting in mind will be applying their art in mixed venues. Onasis, Asia, Omega, Shooter, Ross, they all apply their cma.

Obviously, if I were planning on fighting in an event I would put down the sabre for a little while. But If I needed it, the machete in my truck would be put to good use. ;) :rolleyes:

[Royal Dragon]

Ur starting to talk too much like Springer, i sugjest you back away from the key board, and take your wife to the Caymne's for a week.

[Water Dragon]

Obviously, if I were planning on fighting in an event I would put down the sabre for a little while. But If I needed it, the machete in my truck would be put to good use. ;) :rolleyes:

At which point I would smile and ask you why you brought a knife to a gunfight!

[golden arhat]

There is no such thing as anti-grappling.

sure there is

its the art of avoiding being taken down


its a bad name

[Water Dragon]

I've always considered Muay Thai clinchwork as good anti-grappling. A good Muay Thai guy will tear you apart with knees and elbows from the clinch.

[Knifefighter]

sure there is

its the art of avoiding being taken down


its a bad name

You are right... there is a whole way to keep from being taken down that you could label
"anti-grappling". And, while it requires knowing a bit about takedowns and their defense, it doesn't require deep knowledge of grappling.

The reason I said it wouldn't get you very far in MMA is because it would be considered stalling in that venue.

[TaichiMantis]

I've always considered Muay Thai clinchwork as good anti-grappling. A good Muay Thai guy will tear you apart with knees and elbows from the clinch.


You think that Muay Thai has cornered the market on knees, elbows and inclose fighting? Mantis and Bak Mei have many of those moves...:cool:

[Knifefighter]

You think that Muay Thai has cornered the market on knees, elbows and inclose fighting? Mantis and Bak Mei have many of those moves...:cool:

Yeah, but how often do they use them full-contact in training?

"Having" a move is much different than using it.

[SifuAbel]

At which point I would smile and ask you why you brought a knife to a gunfight!


cause my gun needed company?!?!?!?! :p

[lkfmdc]

You are right... there is a whole way to keep from being taken down that you could label
"anti-grappling". And, while it requires knowing a bit about takedowns and their defense, it doesn't require deep knowledge of grappling.

The reason I said it wouldn't get you very far in MMA is because it would be considered stalling in that venue.

Ah, but you avoid takedowns while striking and doing damage, that DOES work.... that is a formula you see a lot more of these days.....

[SifuAbel]

sure there is

its the art of avoiding being taken down


its a bad name

It is a bad name, Its also not descriptive of what you are doing. I always liked "approach or distance control". Anti take down is too technique specific to work in this case.

Also you could be doing throws or takedowns of your own. So it still wouldn't fit as anti grappling.

If you are being "grappled" and you're applying reversals, even if standing, you are grappling. Not anti grappling. You don't have to be on your belly.

[SifuAbel]

Good one, DR.

It all comes down to control. One opponent controlling the other. Either by percussion or by leverage. You control your opponent so he cannot act on you. Its clear, more and more, that the method itself is not exclusive.

[SifuAbel]

Yeah, but how often do they use them full-contact in training?

"Having" a move is much different than using it.

They who? If I'm included in that, then most every time.

[Water Dragon]

You think that Muay Thai has cornered the market on knees, elbows and inclose fighting? Mantis and Bak Mei have many of those moves...:cool:

I never said they didn't. I only said Muay Thai did.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

holy sh1t my d1ck is so big. its frucking hyooooooge!!!

[boshea]

I don't buy that. I think it is just a matter of time before you start seeing good CMA in MMA. It's going to happen slowly, but it will happen.

If you think about it, CMA needs to do 2 things, invert the amount of time spent on forms with two man work and Sparr more, and work thier anti takedown skills more.

That is all that is needed, everythig else is there. We got striking, Kicking joint manipulations, throwing, ground and pound, it's all there. It just needs to be unzipped and worked.

We even have our own venues to hone skills in prior to entering the MMA venues.

I agree with this. Most Kung Fu schools that I have seen focus on forms and do little or no sparring. MMA fighters test the skills they learn for effectiveness every day, so when it comes time to use them, they know how.

I trained at a traditional Chinese martial arts school for about four years, and at some point took a sparring class (offered outside of the regular curriculum by one of the advanced students, who was also a trainer there). I was surprised to discover how unprepared I was. I'm sure that the Kung Fu that I learned was based on useful skills, but the people who developed those techniques were using them in real fights. For those four years I was basically just learning to repeat movements. Some application of the forms was explained here and there, but not tested. This was great exercise, but not too useful in a fight. It would be interesting to see a traditional Chinese martial arts school which focused on using the skills from the class in real fight matches. Meaning teaching sparring using the traditinal techniques, and holding competitions among the students within the school (i.e. not just teaching Sanda on the side of a traditional Chinese style.) I don't know how practical this would be. I'm not saying that it would be an "MMA killer" either. Just saying it would be interesting.

[Water Dragon]

I don't buy that. I think it is just a matter of time before you start seeing good CMA in MMA. It's going to happen slowly, but it will happen.

If you think about it, CMA needs to do 2 things, invert the amount of time spent on forms with two man work and Sparr more, and work thier anti takedown skills more.

That is all that is needed, everythig else is there. We got striking, Kicking joint manipulations, throwing, ground and pound, it's all there. It just needs to be unzipped and worked.


That's not really where the problem lies. The problem, and the reason I left CMA, was the lack of competition in the CMA world. Let's face it, the hardest thing in CMA is finding training partners who want to use this stuff to fight. Go to the MMA/Sports world however, and you find a plethora of people who want to mix it up.

If you really want to learn to fight, you gotta have two things. The first is an effective training methods. The second is access to a steady supply of bodies to work this stuff with on the fighting floor. You gotta have peole who are better than you to teach you things, worse than you so you can get your techniques down, and the same level as you so you can hone those techniques.

That's real hard to find in the CMA world these days.

[PangQuan]

holy sh1t my d1ck is so big. its frucking hyooooooge!!!

ROFL!!!


put away the viagra dude!

[Royal Dragon]

That's not really where the problem lies. The problem, and the reason I left CMA, was the lack of competition in the CMA world. Let's face it, the hardest thing in CMA is finding training partners who want to use this stuff to fight. Go to the MMA/Sports world however, and you find a plethora of people who want to mix it up.

Reply]
Yeah, I have to agree with you here. I have found plenty of guys over the years who are willing to teach all the forms, supplentary exercises, and drill apps, but few who would mix it up and sparr on any regular basis...ESPECIALLY when I start holding my own, or periodically besting them.

If you really want to learn to fight, you gotta have two things. The first is an effective training methods. The second is access to a steady supply of bodies to work this stuff with on the fighting floor. You gotta have peole who are better than you to teach you things, worse than you so you can get your techniques down, and the same level as you so you can hone those techniques.

Reply]
Yeah, I agree here too.

That's real hard to find in the CMA world these days

Reply]
You have to build a club like that yourself. The guys who are Black Sash's in thier systems today need to start rexamining *How* they were taught, and start making the changces within thier own groups. Even if CMA tournamnets are not common, they cna go to MMA events to test skills and theories. It's going to take time to fine tune and get it going again, but when you look at it, everything you need *IS* there.

[lkfmdc]

LEARN HOW TO USE THE REAL QUOTE FUNCTION ALREADY :mad:

[unkokusai]

Agreed!!!!!!

[shaolinassassin]

hello all,

just wanted to come on here and reply to some of the posts on here...

I am from the Tsai system of Chuan Fa. My fighting is a mix of all of the kung fu i learned from Master Tsai and his Black Sashes. I am lucky in that Master Tsai focused more on fighting and that is how I approach my Chuan Fa.

As far as the Torres fight goes, I feel like i should have won. The fight, for the most part, went exactly according to plan. I knew exactly what he was going to do. My two errors were that I didn't go at 100%, I didn't go for the kill when i had the chance. I give him his due because he execucted when he needed to.

PangQuan, I do not crosstrain per se. my ground is just an extentioin of what i do standing up. i went to a bjj place for a couple of months (because the guy wanted to manage me in MMA) but all i got out of it was a busted arm. On occasion, i workout with my current managers and pick up tidbits here and there.
I like the ground for MMA, but when all is said and done, it is still a sport. It is different from self defense in that you cant use all of your weapons or resources like strikes to the back of the head/spine, pressure points etc.

all in all, i like the MMA, its about as close to testing yourself and you can get these days. i still do American Kickboxing, Tae Kwon Do and even some point sparring. I believe my kung fu can translate to any combat fighting scenario.
My MMA record is where it is because i havent yet figured out a specific style to fight in MMA and that my training partners are my students and i only get to go about 50% on them. Once i get back to fighting how i always fight and not worrying about winning/losing, grappling or any of the other nonsense that gets in the way of our art, i should do much better.

Tsaichimantis and Royal Dragon - do i know you from Iron Fist? are you still involved in the chicago martial arts scene? Let me know

[Royal Dragon]

I don't know if you know me or not. I was at Iron Fist West in the late 90's when Sifu Kathyrn ran it. I was at Tsai's school early to mid 90's not too long before they closed the Irving Pk school.

I am doinng a totally different style now, and to be honest i really don't remember much from Tsai's system. I do remember Sif Percy running and jumping around throwing fire in his Mortal Combat outfit though!! :D

and Gia Spencer chastising me for throwing in out of the box random techniques when we were supposed to be drilling something specific (My partner kept initiateing it). As well as a number of other silly and fun things, but I can't remember the curriculem...except for those killer abb exercises that is...I'm still hurting from those!

[unkokusai]

You have yet to address the issue of your inability to use the quote function.

[Royal Dragon]

QUOTE:
You have yet to address the issue of your inability to use the quote function.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Any system can be applied effectively to the MMA arena, if it is trained that way.
We have seen TKD, WC, Kyokushin, etc, etc.

At what point does a system stop being that system within the MMA environment?

I would say when what makes said system unique is no longer present.

You can't say that TKD won you a MMA match when you didn't throw one kick that made a difference and won VIA an Arm bar.

[SevenStar]

You think that Muay Thai has cornered the market on knees, elbows and inclose fighting? Mantis and Bak Mei have many of those moves...:cool:

maybe, but do they use them in fighting or in training like a muay thai guy does? If not, that would be like comparing a judoka to someone who "has throwing in their forms"...

[SevenStar]

I don't buy that. I think it is just a matter of time before you start seeing good CMA in MMA. It's going to happen slowly, but it will happen.

If you think about it, CMA needs to do 2 things, invert the amount of time spent on forms with two man work and Sparr more, and work thier anti takedown skills more.

That is all that is needed, everythig else is there. We got striking, Kicking joint manipulations, throwing, ground and pound, it's all there. It just needs to be unzipped and worked.

We even have our own venues to hone skills in prior to entering the MMA venues.

sure, it sounds simple, but that is irrelevant, really. How many will actually do it? Not many, because the overall desire to compete really isn't there. That is why I say it will never happen.

[TaichiMantis]

Tsaichimantis and Royal Dragon - do i know you from Iron Fist? are you still involved in the chicago martial arts scene? Let me know


My sifu is Jeff Organ in Grand Rapids. My son and I have participated in Sifu Kenny's demo at the Chinese festival in Chicago. We hope to get Sifu Johnny up here some time for a seminar. Good luck in your future fights...;)

[unkokusai]

QUOTE:
You have yet to address the issue of your inability to use the quote function.



You fail again.

[mawali]

CMA has not adapted to strategies outside of its 'domain' and therfore it will seem outmoded to the many! CMA is good for performance due to its flower fist (huaquan) and that is positive if one wants that kind of training.
Adding groundwork, shuaijiao, and the cross training will surely raise the reality level of CMA but no one wants to do that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

CMA has not adapted to strategies outside of its 'domain' and therfore it will seem outmoded to the many! CMA is good for performance due to its flower fist (huaquan) and that is positive if one wants that kind of training.
Adding groundwork, shuaijiao, and the cross training will surely raise the reality level of CMA but no one wants to do that.

Some have always done that, unfortunately, they are too few and too far between.
And even less are open to the public.

TCMA are their own worse enemy's at times.

[PangQuan]

I do not crosstrain per se. my ground is just an extentioin of what i do standing up.

quite refreshing to hear :D

keep it up. maybe let us know if you have another MMA fight coming up, i would like to see it.

[shaolinassassin]

i am actually fighting this saturday in cicero for total fight challenge. should be interesting. my opponent is a former state wrestling champ who probably is looking to do some ground and pound. i plan a mixture of 'point fighting' mixed with a little close in wing chun defense. should be fun!!

i'll report back on sunday and let you all know how it went.

[unkokusai]

i am actually fighting this saturday in cicero for total fight challenge. should be interesting. my opponent is a former state wrestling champ who probably is looking to do some ground and pound. i plan a mixture of 'point fighting' mixed with a little close in wing chun defense. should be fun!!

i'll report back on sunday and let you all know how it went.



I'd recommend forgetting the "close in wing chun defense" and just do your ****dest to keep him standing and outside with lots of jabs and leg kicks and look for a chance at a big head shot.

[monji112000]

hmm point fighting..."wing Chun" defense?...
are you going to tape it? I hope you aren't going to do the "anti-grappling" stuff..

by wing chun defense do you mean rush in and rabbit punch?

OR do you mean things like Pak sao, qwan sao, bow&arrow punch , timing , strategy, footwork ect..
Just wondering.

[Water Dragon]

Hey Charles, I just wanted to wish you luck on the fight this Saturday. Will it be taped? I'd love to see it.

[shaolinassassin]

I'd recommend forgetting the "close in wing chun defense" and just do your ****dest to keep him standing and outside with lots of jabs and leg kicks and look for a chance at a big head shot.

that's just it. i don't have just one fighting style. i have a few. sometimes i like to dance on the outside and pick my opponent apart (ie. point sparring). sometimes i like to get inside and hang on my opponent or trap and counter his techniques from close in (ie. wing chun). i like to think my chuan fa will allow me to figure out the best strategy within the first few seconds and act accordingly. also, i find that in ALL of my losses, the fear of going to the ground is what got me in trouble. my students and i roll and fight on the ground so i'm not looking to avoid it in this fight.

anyway, we'll see how it all goes on saturday. i will not be taping but usually someone tapes the Total Fight Challenge fights and puts them up on youtube.


p.s. i'm looking for a fighting name to help represent the kung fu. any suggestions would be appreciated. i started out as the 'shaolin assassin' but it felt cheesy. seems like every other fighter out there has 'assassin' attached to their name. i've been using 'man of war' but that feels sterile and doesnt speak to kung fu. let me know what you all think

[unkokusai]

Well, you mentioned that your opponent is a decent wrestler, and if that's the case then I don't think your 'close in wing chun defense' is going to serve you well.


Just trying to help.

[shaolinassassin]

i appreciate the suggestion. most wrestlers need the distance to set up the takedown. if im in close, i want to be keeping him busy with strikes and counters from a close distance. hopefully, it will keep him off balance and make him think that being in close is not working. like i said, we'll see on saturday!!

[unkokusai]

most wrestlers need the distance to set up the takedown.


No, they don't. They will dominate you in close 'wing chun close in defense' or not, and it will be too late for you to do something about it before you are forced to find out how good your ground game is.

[sunfist]

No, they don't. They will dominate you in close 'wing chun close in defense' or not, and it will be too late for you to do something about it before you are forced to find out how good your ground game is.

Dont be so doom and gloom, just wish the youngin good luck and remind him to learn from his experiences :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

i appreciate the suggestion. most wrestlers need the distance to set up the takedown. if im in close, i want to be keeping him busy with strikes and counters from a close distance. hopefully, it will keep him off balance and make him think that being in close is not working. like i said, we'll see on saturday!!

Any decent wrestler will take you down off the clinch, long distance tackles went out with Baggy pants and pop-rap.

[unkokusai]

Dont be so doom and gloom, just wish the youngin good luck and remind him to learn from his experiences :p

Just trying to help, and since he is obviously harboring some misconceptions it would seem the help is needed.

[Water Dragon]

I'm interested to hear this Wing Chun theory as well, Bro. I figure, you've had the ring experience, so you KNOW what you're gonna be dealing with. You've dealt with it before. I'm just not seeing how you could use it. Is this a totally new stragey for you? Is it based off stuff you've successfully pulled off in prior fights?

I would agree with the guys above though. A lot of BJJ guys and wrestlers will touch your forehead and then shoot, so a lot of them actually prefer to shoot from up close.

[shaolinassassin]

All of you may be right. Water Dragon is right in the fact that i've had hundreds of fights in point, tkd, subwrestling, wing chung, kickboxing and now MMA. what i've learned is that you cannot be afraid to experiment and try what you know in different ways. i believe my kung fu provides me with an awesome skill set. but just like all the other fighting sports, it's limited by the rules. therefore, i have to be willing to try something new. ive lost before so no big deal!!

i'll post the results tonight!!

charles 'the fearless monk' wilson - what do you think ?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

fearless monk aint half bad.

good luck and let us know how it goes. or did it already go?

[SevenStar]

He lost by decision.

[unkokusai]

What?! Even with his wing chun close-in fighting? Impossible!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Any system can be applied effectively to the MMA arena, if it is trained that way.
We have seen TKD, WC, Kyokushin, etc, etc.

At what point does a system stop being that system within the MMA environment?

I would say when what makes said system unique is no longer present.

You can't say that TKD won you a MMA match when you didn't throw one kick that made a difference and won VIA an Arm bar.


***EXACTLY. CMA's have to be seriously reworked in their training regimen, ie.- much less time spent doing forms and CMA specific drills - and tons more conditioning and hard sparring going on if they're going to compete effectively in the MMA venue.

And then you get to see what's feasible from CMA's and what's ready to be tossed.

Like the man said: no signature moves - no cigar. (Well actually, he didn't say that. But he came close). :)

......................

"I'd recommend forgetting the "close in wing chun defense" and just do your ****dest to keep him standing and outside with lots of jabs and leg kicks and look for a chance at a big head shot." (unkokusai)

***UNLESS, of course...his wing chun is good. Say, for example - better than the wing chun guys you've come across. :rolleyes: In which case it might serve him very well as close quarter defense. :cool:

[shaolinassassin]

Hello all,

Just wanted to give the update on my fight. i lost a split decision. one judge had me 29/29, the second had it 30/27 the other guy and the final judge had it 29/28 for the other guy. i thought i controlled the ground with more submission attempts. i threw good kicks but i didn;t do enough damage with the hands. that's just something i have to work oun personally. again, not too bad for a 37 year old who trains when he can with some of his students.

as much as i hate losing in anything, a split decision is not the end of the world for me. each time i compete, whether point, tkd, kickboxing or mma, i review it and try to get better. when i am at my school training, i do my forms and work my weapons as much as i spar or practice ground fighting. i think all of it is important for what it is. the mental aspect of forms are just as important as the physical test of sparring. i have evaluated my style and what ive been taught over and over. i've tweaked a few things but for the most part, i find value in all of it.

it seems people forget that all these combat sports we do and talk about are not the end all, be all test of how good your skills or style is. like i said before, i have competed and won in every arena. i am an undefeated pro kickboxer, former State TKD champ and national point sparring champion. my combined mma record is 15-6. most of my mma fights have been fought at 170 against guys who cut down from 180-190. ive fought and won 3 times in one night in an mma tournament. my first mma fight was 4 days out from a cracked rib. more importantly, i have survived my fair share of real street fightsw ith no major damage. some of those fights were against multiple attackers.

so all in all, i think that my style and my skill set are not too shabby. i know we love to debate on these forums but i like what i do and i will take my style over most.

hit me back and let me know what you all think. i feel that alot of the kung fu styles out there offer the best training for practitioners to be the most well rounded.

'peace and be wild!!'

charles 'the fearless monk' wilson

[Ultimatewingchun]

Okay now that I've plugged wing chun as a good choice for close quarter defense (and offense) - you've got to find a good wrestler to work with and learn some serious takedown defenses: sprawls, crossfaces, sprawls, underhooks, sprawls, w h i z z e r s, etc.


Oh, and did I mention sprawls?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hello all,

Just wanted to give the update on my fight. i lost a split decision. one judge had me 29/29, the second had it 30/27 the other guy and the final judge had it 29/28 for the other guy. i thought i controlled the ground with more submission attempts. i threw good kicks but i didn;t do enough damage with the hands. that's just something i have to work oun personally. again, not too bad for a 37 year old who trains when he can with some of his students.

as much as i hate losing in anything, a split decision is not the end of the world for me. each time i compete, whether point, tkd, kickboxing or mma, i review it and try to get better. when i am at my school training, i do my forms and work my weapons as much as i spar or practice ground fighting. i think all of it is important for what it is. the mental aspect of forms are just as important as the physical test of sparring. i have evaluated my style and what ive been taught over and over. i've tweaked a few things but for the most part, i find value in all of it.

it seems people forget that all these combat sports we do and talk about are not the end all, be all test of how good your skills or style is. like i said before, i have competed and won in every arena. i am an undefeated pro kickboxer, former State TKD champ and national point sparring champion. my combined mma record is 15-6. most of my mma fights have been fought at 170 against guys who cut down from 180-190. ive fought and won 3 times in one night in an mma tournament. my first mma fight was 4 days out from a cracked rib. more importantly, i have survived my fair share of real street fightsw ith no major damage. some of those fights were against multiple attackers.

so all in all, i think that my style and my skill set are not too shabby. i know we love to debate on these forums but i like what i do and i will take my style over most.

hit me back and let me know what you all think. i feel that alot of the kung fu styles out there offer the best training for practitioners to be the most well rounded.

'peace and be wild!!'

charles 'the fearless monk' wilson

**** I hate split decisions.
Keep up the good work and remember:
In the street, you would be dead !
Or in this case since it was a split, partially dead.

Maybe loss of a toe or something...

[TaichiMantis]

That's the spirit! Review the tape and keep learning!:D

[PangQuan]

Nice.

Got a link to a vid by chance? :D

would love to see it, if not, its all good.

people do so love to debate though dont they? sounds like your a very experienced fighter, so doubtless much of the drivel people spill your way about "what you should and shouldnt do" probably slides right off the sweat on your back...while they talk and you fight.

Keep it up dude, I think its rad that your representing kungfu and the Shaolin name in MMA.

props

[shaolinassassin]

Hey all. i appreciate the responses.

PangQuan - as soon as i get a copy of the fight, i will post it on youtube.

sanjuro_ronin - i hope i wouldn't wind up partially dead!:D. in the street we have a lot more weapons and striking areas to work with. again, its all relative.

Ultimatewingchun - i actually know alot of the shot takedowns. the problem is that i find some of them contrary to how i fight. the spawl for example, goes against what i SHOULD be doing. instead of kicking my legs out and trying to stuff the guy, i should be hitting him first and often. worst case, i should be timing him and kicking or kneeing him in his face. i think i am better off putting my training into that. again, thats how i fight.... or at least thats how i should be fighting. still need some more experience to fell as relaxed in the ring/cage as i do in the point, kickboxing etc. hopefully it will come soon!!

by the way, if any of you get a chance, check out superkickskungfu.com
email me through the site if you have any suggestions on how i can spruce up the site. also, i was thinking about opening my site up to over training/fighting tips from other CMA's or maybe articles from other instructors or students doing what we do. i think its time we started to represent on a bigger scale like the BJJ and MMA folks do. anyway, let me know what you all think!~

[Becca]

TMA guys have been mouth bashing mma for years as well. I have old insude kung fu mags from like 1994 with articles explaining the easy cma way to defeat a grappler's "tackle". The bashing has definitely gone both ways. I actually hear more bashing from tma guys than mma guys.

I'd say it fluctuates on who does the most bashing. Some months it's 50/50. Other times it'll slide from one end to the other.

I absolutly never, ever talk MMA with my Sifu; he doesn't like it enough to watch it. Therefor he has not had enough exposure to have seen the truely great stuff that keeps a true fan tuned in through the cr@ppy fights. Basing an oppinion of a sport based on limited exposure is goofy but very common.

I've seen several hundred TMA sparring matches. The vast majority sucked. But I also know that doesn't meen TMA sucks. I would say my MMA exposure is a couple hudred fights. Once again, most sucked. That still doesn't meen MMA sucks.

From my experiance, I see no point in picking a "camp." I'd rather base my oppinion on a fighter than a fighting style. :)

[PangQuan]

I'd say it fluctuates on who does the most bashing. Some months it's 50/50. Other times it'll slide from one end to the other.

I absolutly never, ever talk MMA with my Sifu; he doesn't like it enough to watch it. Therefor he has not had enough exposure to have seen the truely great stuff that keeps a true fan tuned in through the cr@ppy fights. Basing an oppinion of a sport based on limited exposure is goofy but very common.

I've seen several hundred TMA sparring matches. The vast majority sucked. But I also know that doesn't meen TMA sucks. I would say my MMA exposure is a couple hudred fights. Once again, most sucked. That still doesn't meen MMA sucks.

From my experiance, I see no point in picking a "camp." I'd rather base my oppinion on a fighter than a fighting style. :)

Thats a great post. So true in every sense.


I see the bashing come from both sides "camps" as you state. I see rediculous claims from both sides.

I like to think of it like anything else in the world, every one wants to be doing whats "real".....a little thing i like to remember though, life is real no matter what you are doing. just enjoy it

:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'd say it fluctuates on who does the most bashing. Some months it's 50/50. Other times it'll slide from one end to the other.

I absolutly never, ever talk MMA with my Sifu; he doesn't like it enough to watch it. Therefor he has not had enough exposure to have seen the truely great stuff that keeps a true fan tuned in through the cr@ppy fights. Basing an oppinion of a sport based on limited exposure is goofy but very common.

I've seen several hundred TMA sparring matches. The vast majority sucked. But I also know that doesn't meen TMA sucks. I would say my MMA exposure is a couple hudred fights. Once again, most sucked. That still doesn't meen MMA sucks.

From my experiance, I see no point in picking a "camp." I'd rather base my oppinion on a fighter than a fighting style. :)

What's with this LOGIC crap ??

[Becca]

LOL @ using stances to stop takedows. Stop into a wrestling club and see how that works out for you.
Works fine if your timming is on. I roll with wrestlers regularly. We don't go to the ground unless we start there. 'Course, you gotta actually work the stances, not just give it lip service or dismiss them as "only for endurance". Rolling is a good example of why you'd need that endurance. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Works fine if your timming is on. I roll with wrestlers regularly. We don't go to the ground unless we start there. 'Course, you gotta actually work the stances, not just give it lip service or dismiss them as "only for endurance". Rolling is a good example of why you'd need that endurance. :)

Endurance is over-rated, I find that the more relaxed you are, the less your chances of being subbed.
How many sleeping people have been subbed ??
ZERO !
:D

[PangQuan]

ah, and it comes back full circle to the power of the Sleeping Fist Style.


your sleeping fist is strong, but it is no match for my alarm clock kicks

[SifuAbel]

Works fine if your timming is on. I roll with wrestlers regularly. We don't go to the ground unless we start there. 'Course, you gotta actually work the stances, not just give it lip service or dismiss them as "only for endurance". Rolling is a good example of why you'd need that endurance. :)

No you gotta put it terms he'll understand.

Like this: "argh bwar har har *tell it to lidell *fgar uar gaaaaaaaaaaapt.

[sanjuro_ronin]

ah, and it comes back full circle to the power of the Sleeping Fist Style.


your sleeping fist is strong, but it is no match for my alarm clock kicks

Ah, your chi is strong, but my plastered-fu is stronger.

[Knifefighter]

Works fine if your timming is on. I roll with wrestlers regularly. We don't go to the ground unless we start there. 'Course, you gotta actually work the stances, not just give it lip service or dismiss them as "only for endurance". Rolling is a good example of why you'd need that endurance. :)

LOL... if no one is ever ending up on the ground, you are rolling with some pretty sub-par wrestlers.

Do you have a collegiate wrestling program near you? If you do, stop by wrestling practice one day and ask if you can work in on takedown practice. I promise you won't be off the ground for long.

[unkokusai]

Works fine if your timming is on. I roll with wrestlers regularly. We don't go to the ground unless we start there.


Oh, brother...........:rolleyes:

[Becca]

LOL... if no one is ever ending up on the ground, you are rolling with some pretty sub-par wrestlers.

Do you have a collegiate wrestling program near you? If you do, stop by wrestling practice one day and ask if you can work in on takedown practice. I promise you won't be off the ground for long.
I wouldn't call them sub par. (http://www.nextleveltrainingstudio.com/Template.php?-p=Home) But then, I'm not the one making blanket insults against people I've never met, just because they beleive in a method I don't.:rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

I wouldn't call them sub par. (http://www.nextleveltrainingstudio.com/Template.php?-p=Home) But then, I'm not the one making blanket insults against people I've never met, just because they beleive in a method I don't.:rolleyes:

LOL ! Owned.

[bodhitree]

Works fine if your timming is on. I roll with wrestlers regularly. We don't go to the ground unless we start there. 'Course, you gotta actually work the stances, not just give it lip service or dismiss them as "only for endurance". Rolling is a good example of why you'd need that endurance. :)


I doubt stances have stopped anybody who is decent at takedowns from executing a takedown. If they did you'd see more horse stances in wrestling, judo, mma, and everywhere.

Good Posture does make it more difficult for one to be taken down, but mobility is still more important than stance. Once somebody is stiff in a stance they are thrown. At judo practice if I have a night where I'm stiff I'll get tossed (I had one this week).

Of course a person who has better posture will be harder to take down. Wrestlers do have a stance, but don't treat it like a lot of TCMA people treat staces. mobility and posture must work together to avoid takedowns. Oh, and being offensive can be a good way to avoid a take down. It's pretty hard to take somebody down who just took you down.

I knew some kung fu guys who said "i'm rooted" and things like that but have any of them tested their stances or their "rootedness"? no.

also imo there are many better ways to develop endurance for rolling than stance holding. Even without training partners you can do rolling specific drills like shrimping, bridging, sit throughs, or you could work on your stand up stuff like shots, sprawls.

Then there are condidioning tools like burpees. 1 min burpees vs. 1 min in horse stance.

burpees work on wind (energy system) horse stance you feel a burn (lactic acid). Which targets the energy system used when your rolling? Just because you feel a burn does not make something a good exercise.

Basically, I respectfully disagree.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I doubt stances have stopped anybody who is decent at takedowns from executing a takedown. If they did you'd see more horse stances in wrestling, judo, mma, and everywhere.

Good Posture does make it more difficult for one to be taken down, but mobility is still more important than stance. Once somebody is stiff in a stance they are thrown. At judo practice if I have a night where I'm stiff I'll get tossed (I had one this week).

Of course a person who has better posture will be harder to take down. Wrestlers do have a stance, but don't treat it like a lot of TCMA people treat staces. mobility and posture must work together to avoid takedowns. Oh, and being offensive can be a good way to avoid a take down. It's pretty hard to take somebody down who just took you down.

I knew some kung fu guys who said "i'm rooted" and things like that but have any of them tested their stances or their "rootedness"? no.

also imo there are many better ways to develop endurance for rolling than stance holding. Even without training partners you can do rolling specific drills like shrimping, bridging, sit throughs, or you could work on your stand up stuff like shots, sprawls.

Then there are condidioning tools like burpees. 1 min burpees vs. 1 min in horse stance.

burpees work on wind (energy system) horse stance you feel a burn (lactic acid). Which targets the energy system used when your rolling? Just because you feel a burn does not make something a good exercise.

Basically, I respectfully disagree.

I think your notion of stances and Becca's may be different.

[Knifefighter]

I wouldn't call them sub par. (http://www.nextleveltrainingstudio.com/Template.php?-p=Home) But then, I'm not the one making blanket insults against people I've never met, just because they beleive in a method I don't.:rolleyes:

It has nothing to do with believing in a method. It has to do with the experience of actually having wrestled for 30 years. If you are training takedowns and defending takedowns, people will regularly be taken down if anybody is halfway decent.

LOL @ thinking you are going against decent wrestlers that are unable to take you down.

You could make a lot of money teaching your super duper "can't be taken down" stances at wrestling, judo, Sambo and MMM camps. :rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

Yeah, that is a pretty ridiculous claim.

[unkokusai]

I doubt stances have stopped anybody who is decent at takedowns from executing a takedown.

mobility is still more important than stance. Once somebody is stiff in a stance they are thrown.

Oh, and being offensive can be a good way to avoid a take down. It's pretty hard to take somebody down who just took you down.

I knew some kung fu guys who said "i'm rooted" and things like that but have any of them tested their stances or their "rootedness"? no.

.



Good points there.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, that is a pretty ridiculous claim.

No way you can take down someone in the "flat on the floor" stance, just can't be done.
:D

[bodhitree]

Can you take someone down in zero gravity?

[Becca]

Good Posture does make it more difficult for one to be taken down, but mobility is still more important than stance. Once somebody is stiff in a stance they are thrown. At judo practice if I have a night where I'm stiff I'll get tossed (I had one this week)...
And just where did you get the idea that stance work is stiff? If you are basing your oppinion of stance work on this idea, I can understand why you don't agree with that meathod. I said work the stances, not play statue.:rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Can you take someone down in zero gravity?

99% of all fights happen in gravity

[bodhitree]

99% of all fights happen in gravity

but what about that one percent? I want to be ready for that.

If I ever see you on the moon I'm gonna kick your ass.

[Becca]

It has nothing to do with believing in a method. It has to do with the experience of actually having wrestled for 30 years. If you are training takedowns and defending takedowns, people will regularly be taken down if anybody is halfway decent.

LOL @ thinking you are going against decent wrestlers that are unable to take you down.

You could make a lot of money teaching your super duper "can't be taken down" stances at wrestling, judo, Sambo and MMM camps. :rolleyes:
Nope. I have no "super duper stance." I train my stances, which makes it very easy to feel my opponant shift thier weight and for me to respond in a way that cancels thier momentum. Try taking someone down when you can't get any viable momentum, Mr. 30 years.:rolleyes:

[bodhitree]

Although knifefighter presents his arguement in a very negative way, I'd have to say I agree that stances don't prevent takedowns. If someone is using stances and stances alone as their way of avoiding a takedown by a skilled wrestler, judoka, etc then it is just a matter of time (probably not too much time) before they end up on the ground.

[sanjuro_ronin]

but what about that one percent? I want to be ready for that.

Its not know to most, but NASA has an elite H2H system for Zero gravity situations and how to deal with those pesky 8 armed a-holes from Alpha Centurai.

[unkokusai]

99% of all fights happen in gravity

But what about the broken glass, needles, and lava floating all around you?


And what about his floating friends?

[unkokusai]

Nope. I have no "super duper stance." I train my stances, which makes it very easy to feel my opponant shift thier weight and for me to respond in a way that cancels thier momentum. Try taking someone down when you can't get any viable momentum, Mr. 30 years.:rolleyes:


No, you try using your super-sensitive 'feeeeeeling' against someone outside your stipmall, Yoda.


"Very easy it is. Feel them you must. Takedown they cannot!"

[bodhitree]

I have tons of floating friends.

[unkokusai]

You can't have 'tons' if there's no gravity.

[bodhitree]

point made.

edit: I have "lots" of floating friends.

now I'm going to kick your ass in the space shuttle next time we travel.

[unkokusai]

Not if I have my heat shield and thermal blanket to protect me!

[PangQuan]

standing, i believe is something we all do.

stances, are just another way of saying standing, yet with specific structure.

in any given style that has a solid foundation of stances that are utilized within the art, you will find that there are a varying degree of standing postures/structures that will have been developed.

ie: the founders, developers, creators of the art will try to cover as many situations that require some form of standing.

basically anytime you are on your feet you are standing, in otherwords, you are in a stance. regardless of how you train, if you train your stances, YOU USE THEM.

in defending against a takedown, unless you immediately go to the ground, you WILL have utilized some form of standing (likely in movement of course, incase your common sense would not have told you this aspect). to me, IMO, even a sprawl is a form of a stance.

Now, i dont think stances/standing alone can prevent a takedown. perhaps momentarily, or from an unexperienced wrestler/grappler. Eventually any one aspect of take down defense will have to give way for another to help or take its place, once your opponent figures out what your doing and how to get around it.

But I do believe that standing and all the varying structures used within the framework of movement and transition is an aspect of defense that will benefit any fighter.

If you cant stand well, what reason would you have to try and stay on your feet anyway?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Mifune was a big proponent of stance training, Kimura also.

Though you would never see them standing in a stance...

[PangQuan]

Mifune was a big proponent of stance training, Kimura also.

Though you would never see them standing in a stance...

Totally.

You will rarely see my standing in a stance either. But I still train them. Although I also train form, and within that training I receive a large portion of my stance conditioning.

Of course, this is just a personal decision.

Also, when I train my basics, stances are included. Punches, Kicks, etc. can all be done in the midst of stance training.

I also have several combinations ive played around with that mixes all of my stances together in a long combination of continuous movment, each stance flowing into the next in repeated loop that trains the large majority of my known stances.

[Becca]

I also have several combinations ive played around with that mixes all of my stances together in a long combination of continuous movment, each stance flowing into the next in repeated loop that trains the large majority of my known stances.

which raises questions about your un-known ones... :D




I think you sais it best a few pages back. What I call stance work and what KF thinks I'm talking about are not the same thing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

which raises questions about your un-known ones... :D




I think you sais it best a few pages back. What I call stance work and what KF thinks I'm talking about are not the same thing.

Dude, KF and some other guy posted a video of me doing a "short range" Southern Kung fu drill on the heavy bag and critiqued my "boxing" !!

LOL !!!

[bodhitree]

Mifune was a big proponent of stance training, Kimura also.

Though you would never see them standing in a stance...


substanciate please.

[sanjuro_ronin]

substanciate please.


Balance comes from stances, DYNAMIC stances, not static.
If you wanna learn how to stand while someone is trying to take you down, you train by, guess what?
Standing when someone is trying to take you down.
That is stance work.
Well you get taken down?
Yes, less and less as you get better, but eventually yes.
Its what you do with the time you have while still on your feet that matters.

[bodhitree]

you don't understand.

Substanciate that Mifune and Kimura were proponents of stance training.

[PangQuan]

which raises questions about your un-known ones... :D




I think you sais it best a few pages back. What I call stance work and what KF thinks I'm talking about are not the same thing.

hey wait a sec. have they been holding out on me??!?! :mad:



Ya, I could sense some mis communication on that aspect. The funny thing is that when you mention stance training, most people that dont have an in depth understanding and experience with traditional arts automatically picture the guy standing in horse stance for 45 minutes with bowls of water on his limbs and head.

The other guys that dismiss all aspects of stance training and DO have the experience of traditional arts just never got far enough to understand the benefits of ALL TYPES OF STANCE TRAINING. because there are literally hundreds if not thousands of exersizes used for training how we stand in all the various aspects of combat. Our feet have to move, they must have a foundation to move into, and that foundation must have proper stucture, endurance and strenght for the standing to be of any use in combat.

thus to recieve all the benefits as a human who stands, you must train all the aspects of standing.

rather simple concept....

[sanjuro_ronin]

you don't understand.

Substanciate the Mifune and Kimura were proponents of stance training.

Oh for the love of..because my Judo Shihan said so and he was an 8th and trained with both !

there you happy ?

Sheesh.

Of course you can just buy the Canon of judo or Best Judo and "understand' as opposed to "read".

[PangQuan]

Balance comes from stances, DYNAMIC stances, not static.
If you wanna learn how to stand while someone is trying to take you down, you train by, guess what?
Standing when someone is trying to take you down.
That is stance work.
Well you get taken down?
Yes, less and less as you get better, but eventually yes.
Its what you do with the time you have while still on your feet that matters.

excellent point.

this is, IMO, the most benefitial type of stance training to help us with take down defense. Regarding the aspect of stances helping in take down defense of course.

yet, i feel, that to be able to best understand and get the most out of this type of training. you need a good foundation to pull from.

you have to know how to stand if you want to train your standing to help against take down defense.

it all comes back to the basics

[bodhitree]

Standing when someone is trying to take you down.
That is stance work.



Sounds like wrestling to me.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sounds like wrestling to me.

Correct, put a gi on it and it is....Judo !!:eek:

[Knifefighter]

I think you sais it best a few pages back. What I call stance work and what KF thinks I'm talking about are not the same thing.

It's not the stance work per se (although you might explain how it is different than what I think it is)... it is your statement that that allows you to not be taken down by wrestlers.

[PangQuan]

females, jello, and it becomes a very good time ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

females, jello, and it becomes a very good time ;)

* Cue la grange by ZZ Top*

:D

[PangQuan]

* Cue la grange by ZZ Top*

:D



Have mercy

[Becca]

The funny thing is that when you mention stance training, most people that dont have an in depth understanding and experience with traditional arts automatically picture the guy standing in horse stance for 45 minutes with bowls of water on his limbs and head.



That's not stance training, even though you are holding a stance. That is meditation. You are training your mind to overcome the body's natural tendancy to stand back up. :)

[Becca]

It's not the stance work per se (although you might explain how it is different than what I think it is)... it is your statement that that allows you to not be taken down by wrestlers.
And I will contunue to stick with that statment untill someone prooves to me otherwise. I have stated repetedly what I'm calling stance training. You have repetedly ignored, or mis-read, every thing I and other stance beleivers say on the subject.

I'm not going to video myself rolling. The only way I can validate myself would be to roll with you. As we don't live in the same neck of the woods, that ain't likely to happen. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's not stance training, even though you are holding a stance. That is meditation. You are training your mind to overcome the body's natural tendancy to stand back up. :)

It can also lead to constipation and that kind of chi, no one wants !

[unkokusai]

And I will contunue to stick with that statment untill someone prooves to me otherwise.


So you are declaring that you cannot be taken down?

[PangQuan]

So you are declaring that you cannot be taken down?

i doubt she is saying that.

I think what she is saying is that it works. Of course nothing works 100% of the time, yet to dismiss something someone has experienced is kind of silly.

[Becca]

Nope. I'm declairing that stance work is the reason I'm hard to take down. I have been taken down since I got serious about stance training. But it usually happens after I get tiered or make a blunder. There's no point in circling each other endlessly, some one has to break it up. As I'm very good at keeping thier attacks from working, I have to launch some of my own. At which point, they can use the same tricks on me that I used on them.:D

[Knifefighter]

The only way I can validate myself would be to roll with you. As we don't live in the same neck of the woods, that ain't likely to happen. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I may be doing some training and teaching at my friend's BJJ school in CO this summer. If so, we could roll then. Where do you train?

[unkokusai]

I have been taken down since I got serious about stance training. But it usually happens after I get tiered or make a blunder.




LOL! If you say so, but I'm not sure you are training with the cream of the crop as far as takedowns go.

[bodhitree]

olympic class judo athletes regularly get taken down.


D1 wrestlers also get taken down regularly.

Too bad they don't train stances.

[unkokusai]

Exactly! It is just ridiculous.

[Merryprankster]

Try taking someone down when you can't get any viable momentum, Mr. 30 years.


Lots of takedowns that don't rely much on "momentum," proper. Trips, picks, taps, blocks, etc.


Becca, it sounds to me like two things:

1. You're basically learning how to stay on your feet, much the same way that any Judoka or wrestler would do. You're calling it "stance training." Grappling types call it "not getting thrown/taken down." No biggy.

2. I'm guessing your field of sparring partners does not include any dedicated, experienced, stand-up grapplers. No offense, but that's how it comes across to me.

[bodhitree]

1. You're basically learning how to stay on your feet, much the same way that any Judoka or wrestler would do. You're calling it "stance training." Grappling types call it "not getting thrown/taken down." No biggy.



Or basically I'm not going to easily fall over for someone.

[Knifefighter]

Nope. I'm declairing that stance work is the reason I'm hard to take down. I have been taken down since I got serious about stance training. But it usually happens after I get tiered or make a blunder. There's no point in circling each other endlessly, some one has to break it up. As I'm very good at keeping thier attacks from working, I have to launch some of my own. At which point, they can use the same tricks on me that I used on them.:D

Wait a minute! Before you said you never went to the ground unless you started there. Which is it?


Nope. I have no "super duper stance." I train my stances, which makes it very easy to feel my opponant shift thier weight and for me to respond in a way that cancels thier momentum. Try taking someone down when you can't get any viable momentum, Mr. 30 years.:rolleyes:

Takedowns aren't about the attacker's momentum, they are about the attacker setting up the defender by changing changing levels, creating angles, and forcing the defender to shift his weight or move one way or the other.

By your posts, you reveal that you are not really training against grapplers, but against other clueless students in your class.

[SifuAbel]

I suppose wrestlers do all this while levitating to the opponent? :rolleyes:

They do stances as we know them. Stance is position and footwork.

[Knifefighter]

I suppose wrestlers do all this while levitating to the opponent? :rolleyes:
They do stances as we know them. Stance is position and footwork.

That's fine... the disconnect comes when people do them in isolation and never train them against takedowns, but then think they are invulnerable to takedowns.

[SifuAbel]

That's fine... the disconnect comes when people do them in isolation and never train them against takedowns, but then think they are invulnerable to takedowns.


So the difference is experience.

[Knifefighter]

So the difference is experience.

Sort of... the experience of training live against someone who knows how to do takedowns vs. pretending to do them with complying partners who have never had takedown training.

Of course, there is also more to defending takedowns than just working stances. One has to know the differences of how to counter specific takedowns, as well as how to counter all of their setups that lead to the takedown. Low singles are countered differently, than standard singles, which are countered differently than doubles, which are countered differently than high crotches, which are countered differently than a fireman's carry. And since takedowns are often done in combos, there is the matter of the followup to the counter and the counter to that.

People who don't really do takedown training don't realize that takedowns are an entire art in and of themselves.

[unkokusai]

I suppose wrestlers do all this while levitating to the opponent? :rolleyes:

They do stances as we know them. Stance is position and footwork.

This all smells very wing chungy. Everything is stance! Its all there if you only know how to look!:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

People who don't really do takedown training don't realize that takedowns are an entire art in and of themselves.



And when they 'train' by working with Wally Wushu for about 20 minutes every Tuesday and Thursday they may start to believe that they just can't be taken down (unless they get 'tired').

[PangQuan]

Of course, there is also more to defending takedowns than just working stances. One has to know the differences of how to counter specific takedowns, as well as how to counter all of their setups that lead to the takedown. Low singles are countered differently, than standard singles, which are countered differently than doubles, which are countered differently than high crotches, which are countered differently than a fireman's carry. And since takedowns are often done in combos, there is the matter of the followup to the counter and the counter to that.

this makes total sense.


People who don't really do takedown training don't realize that takedowns are an entire art in and of themselves.

Very valid point here.

I like to think pretty much every aspect you can find in fighting is like this. For each person that has never delved deeply into a specific element of combat/fighting there is someone who has, and has reached a state of superior development/art.

[bodhitree]

not every takedown is a leg attack. if someone gets a bearhug either in front or behind you, especially someone bigger or stronger than you, a stance is not going to prevent them from lifting and slamming you.


Of course balance and posture help (somewhat) to defend takedowns, but it must work in conjunction with many other things.

[Becca]

I may be doing some training and teaching at my friend's BJJ school in CO this summer. If so, we could roll then. Where do you train?I train were ever I can find people to roll with. I've never been to the BJJ school up in boulder, but know of it. Let me know when you're in town; I'd love to roll!

[Becca]

Lots of takedowns that don't rely much on "momentum," proper. Trips, picks, taps, blocks, etc.


Becca, it sounds to me like two things:

1. You're basically learning how to stay on your feet, much the same way that any Judoka or wrestler would do. You're calling it "stance training." Grappling types call it "not getting thrown/taken down." No biggy.

2. I'm guessing your field of sparring partners does not include any dedicated, experienced, stand-up grapplers. No offense, but that's how it comes across to me.
Could be also that they don't want to roll hard with a woman. I've often wondered that myself.:(

[Becca]

And when they 'train' by working with Wally Wushu for about 20 minutes every Tuesday and Thursday they may start to believe that they just can't be taken down (unless they get 'tired').
The guy whom my kids and I study wrestling with (exert from the web site I already posted):

BRIAN WOOD
(Head Submission Grappling Instructor /Trainer)
BRIAN WOOD’S STYLES AND EXPERTISE:
FREESTYLE GRAPPLING / JU-JITSU / VING TSUN KUNG FU

BACKGROUND:
“With twenty years experience I have grown as an athlete and evolved as a Mixed Martial Artist. As a former Nationally Ranked Division 1A Wrestler I have adapted my own style in accordance to my personal instruction for students and members. I realize now that wrestling was only a stepping stone and I have been studying many styles such as Ving Tsun Kung Fu, Muay Thai, Ju-Jitsu and Jeet Kune Do. I train to be the best Martial Artist I can be while practicing Non-Violence. Recently I have Placed 3rd at the North American Pancrase Submission Championships in the Advanced Lightweight Division and will continue to compete in submission grappling events. I train students to become better athletes which will help them only become better Martial Artists or Sports Fighters.”

-Brian Wood (Next Level Sports Owner and Head Trainer)


I am not asking anyone to take my word for it that I can defend a take down. But please stop insulting they guy I'm training with. He's dam good and doesn't deserve to be bashed by ignorant @ss hattery.

[PangQuan]

Could be also that they don't want to roll hard with a woman. I've often wondered that myself.:(

You know, I hate to say it, but that might be an element you will find anywhere you train...sad to say but could be very true.

I know when I do chi sao with women i tend to be a lot softer and i pull all my strikes.

one way ive noticed in the past that a woman can get me to step up my intensity with her is if she hands me my ass.

seriously, if you ever feel a guy is not giving you what he would give a guy, press him as hard as you can.

but in our defense, its how a lot of guys were raised so its just part of our mental make up to not push as hard with women in things like this....well for guys like me anyhow.

[unkokusai]

The guy whom my kids and I study wrestling with (exert from the web site I already posted):

I am not asking anyone to take my word for it that I can defend a take down. But please stop insulting they guy I'm training with. He's dam good and doesn't deserve to be bashed by ignorant @ss hattery.


Who is really bashing him? Seems he is an experienced grappler. Are you saying he cannot take you down unless you are "tired" or "goof"?

[Becca]

Who is really bashing him? Seems he is an experienced grappler. Are you saying he cannot take you down unless you are "tired" or "goof"?
Dunno if he could take me down. Never actually sparred with him. Every session to date has been an actual class. I started taking my kids there because the little turds need constant out-lets for thier energy or they get into mischief. I started training with them because I have a buddy who likes to brag that I can't pin him. He's right; I can't. But I figured training with a wrestler of Brian's caliber might get me to the point I can. :D

[unkokusai]

I'm curious about "Division 1A." Do you know what school he wrestled for?

[unkokusai]

Dunno if he could take me down.



You don't know? What do you think?

[Becca]

You don't know? What do you think?
What do I think? No way in hell.;):p

And he when to University if Wyoming. Grad in late 90s I think. Been coaching youth wrestling around here for over 5 years.

[unkokusai]

I see. I was wondering about the 1A part.

[Becca]

Dunno. I'll ask, though.

[unkokusai]

Dunno. I'll ask, though.

.................................................. ................


Ok.

[PangQuan]

TTT

Just curious if there was ever a vid put up anywhere about your recent MMA fight there Charles. :D

thanks and peace

[unkokusai]

Dunno. I'll ask, though.


...........................................


Ok

[Becca]

ok, ok. I forgot. I'll make a sticky note and put it on my dash board for tomorrow.

[unkokusai]

ok, ok. I forgot. I'll make a sticky note and put it on my dash board for tomorrow.

...............................................:D: cool:

[Becca]

Ok, I admit; I forgot to ask Coach again. Not to worry- I work with his brother-in-law and he did know the answer. 1A is a reference to the size of the school's enrollment. 1A is smaller school. University of Wyoming is 1A and thier wrestling team competes as "independant", though they tend to rank well.

[shaolinassassin]

TTT

Just curious if there was ever a vid put up anywhere about your recent MMA fight there Charles. :D

thanks and peace


Pan Quan - I still haven't been able to find a vid of my last fight. I will ask the promoter for a copy when I see him next . Speaking of which, on September 15, i am Fighting Joe Pearson for the Total Fight Challenge 145lb title. Pearson is a Pride Fighting Veteran and has the nickname of the 'Triangular Strangler'. His last fight was against WEC champ Urijah Faber. I on the other hand, have been practicing my Snake Fist against the 5-7 year olds at my school and i feel very comfortable with the results. Should be a helluva fight!!

[BlueTravesty]

Pan Quan - I still haven't been able to find a vid of my last fight. I will ask the promoter for a copy when I see him next . Speaking of which, on September 15, i am Fighting Joe Pearson for the Total Fight Challenge 145lb title. Pearson is a Pride Fighting Veteran and has the nickname of the 'Triangular Strangler'. His last fight was against WEC champ Urijah Faber. I on the other hand, have been practicing my Snake Fist against the 5-7 year olds at my school and i feel very comfortable with the results. Should be a helluva fight!!

:rolleyes: I'm suddenly reminded of Kramer from Seinfeld.

[Dragonzbane76]

comentary from the guys taping those vids was pretty funny.

Anyways, charles good fight and good luck with everything. Give you props for getting into the ring and learning each time. Doesn't matter, about the win thing, just nice to have, matters is that you come out with something new and a path to follow on how you should get better. :)

[Johnny Tsai]

After watching that HL clip, he should very much be ashamed with his display in that fight.

Wilson was not that special. He was ok. I give him props for lasting. However, he is an ok fighter 4-5. Actually that is not ok. He is below 50%. So do we have to make a special standard for Kung fu? Losing more than you win is not good in any sport.

How am I insulting Torres when I am basically saying that he is better than what he displayed. He should went through him. He has more than four times more ring exp. and more than ten times the wins.

Actually for what ever reasons these website never updated Sifu Charles record, last I checked his amatuer record was around 12-1-0 and his pro record was 6-5.


BUT, and here's the big but, I think it was 4 out of 5 of those losses (Sifu Charles will have to give more detail) was in my opionion party or largely due to him stepping up in weight classes just to get a fight.

He was fighting guys who walk around at 180lbs and he walks around at 150lb. these guys would just muscle out of his holds. NONE of them EVER hurt him.



at the end of the day that means ALOT if not almost everything when two equally skilled grapples are going at ground fighting.


he finally listened and fought and won a title at his own weight division two weeks ago, completely smashed Pride vet named Joe Pearson and took his belt.


So before you say is is just an "OK fighter" do one of two things, either attend one of his fights or get in the ring with him. I think you'll change your mind.

Either way the youtube video shows only one of his 20 plus mma matches in which he won like 18 including his last win, plus he has won other belts.



so my point is , don't be so quick to judge without truly knowing all of the facts.



All the best-

Waysun Johnny Tsai

[Royal Dragon]

Well said!

[mkriii]

What constitutes MMA? if you have 20 years in a TMA and 1 or 2 years in say BJJ or wrestling, does that make you a mixed martial artist? I got in this debate before. I was trying to defend TCMA and someone said that it is ineffective in fights. I told this person I used my kung fu and beat the guy with a guillotine choke. He informed me that I was a mmartist because I had finished with a choke and that if I hadn't used the BJJ choke I would have goeten beat. Can someone clarify what constitutes a MMA?

[sanjuro_ronin]

What constitutes MMA? if you have 20 years in a TMA and 1 or 2 years in say BJJ or wrestling, does that make you a mixed martial artist? I got in this debate before. I was trying to defend TCMA and someone said that it is ineffective in fights. I told this person I used my kung fu and beat the guy with a guillotine choke. He informed me that I was a mmartist because I had finished with a choke and that if I hadn't used the BJJ choke I would have goeten beat. Can someone clarify what constitutes a MMA?

Look at my "resume".
Am I a MMA ?
Nope, cross trainer yes, for sure.
Of course one persons cross training is anothers MMA.

Basically calling your self a Martial artist ( or fighter if you prefer and IF you fight) is enough of a general blanket term.

[mkriii]

I've trained in Sil Lum Kung Fu for 20 years, wrestled 4 years in high school, and studied BJJ for a year but what I train in regularly is the kung fu. I have been called every thing from a MMArtist to a cross trainer even though I don't really consider my self a MMA or really even some one who cross trains. I dabble a little in grappling but I wouldn't say I train regularly in it. Everytime I try to defend kung fu people say "then why do you dabble in grappling or wrestle?" and the only thing I can say is it's kind of like having insurance, i can use it if I have to.

[Becca]

What constitutes MMA? if you have 20 years in a TMA and 1 or 2 years in say BJJ or wrestling, does that make you a mixed martial artist? I got in this debate before. I was trying to defend TCMA and someone said that it is ineffective in fights. I told this person I used my kung fu and beat the guy with a guillotine choke. He informed me that I was a mmartist because I had finished with a choke and that if I hadn't used the BJJ choke I would have goeten beat. Can someone clarify what constitutes a MMA?Anyone who tells you you didn't use TCMA because you used a choke in a fight is to be pittied for not having a clue and riticuled for spouting off without having thier facts strait... Best just to let them live in thier own la-la land because they can be just as moronic as those who think there is such a thing as a technique too deadly to use.:rolleyes:

[Lucas]

Check this guy out, I was pretty impressed. The Kung Fu guy has real good stand up. The skinny Mexican guy is my old coach, Miguel Torres.

round 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rnEakWrCNo&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fprofile%2Emyspace%2Ecom%2Findex% 2Ecfm%3Ffuseaction%3Duser%2Eviewprofile%26friendid %3D170467588%26MyToken%3Dfb1bc567%2Ddb48%2D4451%2D b0d

round 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_ah896AyVY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fprofile%2Emyspace%2Ecom%2Findex% 2Ecfm%3Ffuseaction%3Duser%2Eviewprofile%26friendid %3D170467588%26MyToken%3Dfb1bc567%2Ddb48%2D4451%2D b0d

round 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6G8gEYNPBY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fprofile%2Emyspace%2Ecom%2Findex% 2Ecfm%3Ffuseaction%3Duser%2Eviewprofile%26friendid %3D170467588%26MyToken%3Dfb1bc567%2Ddb48%2D4451%2D b0d

so i know this is an old thread. But i was going around on the net yesterday watching a bunch of vids of torres. He's really highly respected. I think it was an interview with frank mir, whos opinion was that Torres is, pound for pound, one of the best fighters in the professional world. I watched him drop fighter after fighter on youtube. He's really really good.

Just made me think of this fight, so i rewatched it. Wilson did better than many of Torres' other, pro opponents.

I was not really learned up on torres till i watched bout 6 of his fights, and listened to some interviews.

Just a bump.

Anyone else got any more kungfu in mma vid links they can post?

[Lucas]

i dont remember who or where i saw this, but it was some video or article. i believe it was one of the 32nd generation shaolin monks.

anyway, in regards to shaolin boxing what he was saying was;

regardless of where you are with your boxing, you local region and the people within it are going to be a major influence in your boxing. no matter where you are at there will be things in the area that will be aquired into your boxing by sharing and mixing with those that you are in contact with.

of course with the state of global communication, transportation, and the internet, this is even more enhanced past just where you may be living or training.

for instance, many peoples in the americas, north and south, will have some sort of western boxing influence in their martial arts, as we have all been exposed to it.

similar to painting or drawing, when you are constantly exposing yourself to different techniques and artists, you will pick up some new ideas or methods, sometimes you may not even notice the direct link right away.

[omarthefish]

Ain't that the truth.

My Shifu's biggest "complaint" about my gongfu is that he can't quite seem to erase that "boxing flavor" from my stuff. I've never trained boxing in my life. It's just the way everybody moves in the US. It's a cultural thing. To his eyes, my gongfu doesn't look "Chinese" enough. :p

[Lucas]

Ain't that the truth.

My Shifu's biggest "complaint" about my gongfu is that he can't quite seem to erase that "boxing flavor" from my stuff. I've never trained boxing in my life. It's just the way everybody moves in the US. It's a cultural thing. To his eyes, my gongfu doesn't look "Chinese" enough. :p

lol, i have the same 'problem'

its also funny because my frist teacher thought i fought like a karate guy. ive never studied karate!

;)

[GeneChing]

ONE FC lightweight Peter Davis wants to prove that Kung Fu can work inside the cage (http://www.mmamania.com/2013/1/29/3915702/one-fc-lightweight-peter-davis-wants-to-prove-that-kung-fu-can-work)
By James Goyder on Jan 29, 4:00p

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/7309293/peter_davis.0_standard_730.0.jpg
Peter Davis lands a spinning back kick to the jaw of Kim Hock - ONE FC

What is Wuji Chuan? Just ask Kim Hock, who had his jaw shattered by the Kung Fu of Peter Davis.

There aren't too many Kung Fu fighters holding their own in mixed martial arts (MMA) but Malaysian lightweight Peter Davis is the exception which proves the rule. He has the sort of traditional martial arts background which fight fans like to mock but no one was laughing last time he fought.

Least of all his Singaporean opponent.

In the sort of move which few fighters would dare to attempt outside of a sparring session, Davis threw a left high kick which missed but simply used the momentum to spin around again and throw a spinning back kick which connected clean with the jaw of Kim Hock. (video)

The performance was perhaps overshadowed by that of his compatriot Adam Kayoom, who won a hard-fought decision victory over Gregor Gracie, not to mention Zorobabel Moreira's controversial knockout of Roger Huerta, but it did wonders for the credibility of Davis who up until that point had been better known in Malaysia as an actor and model.

The 30 year old, who made his MMA debut in 2004, has a very unique philosophy to martial arts which he enjoys applying inside the cage.

"Fighting for me is very creative, I like to try different things and see what works. My style of fighting is Wuji Chuan but what that really means is 'like water,' so you can do whatever you want as long as you can make it flow."

The striking didn't flow quite so freely the first time he fought for ONE FC when he was frustrated by Indonesian wrestler Ngabdi Mulyadi. Davis said he learned from that experience and will never put in such a poor performance again.

"Fortunately, I won the fight by submission but it was my first time fighting at 155 pounds and I have been fighting at 170 since the age of 23 and cutting weight takes a lot of getting used to. I'm sorry I didn't make it more entertaining for the crowd, but I hope I made up for it with my second fight for ONE FC."

The question is whether this 'Wuji Chuan' style will serve Davis as well when he starts to face more experienced opponents, but he believes that with the right training, he has the tools to take on anyone in the lightweight division.

"I am very confident in my striking, so far my style has been effective and I still have a lot more tricks which I haven't had a chance to use yet. Guys like Shinya Aoki and Kotetsu Boku have so much experience, I'd need to work a lot on my wrestling and submissions before I fought either of them but if ONE FC wanted to make the fight then why not?"

He has a very unconventional style and likes to crouch down, switch stances constantly and then lunge in with strikes. It is unusual but effective, as Hock discovered to his cost with the Singaporean's jaw already broken in two places when referee Matt Hume stepped in to save him from further punishment.

Davis will get another opportunity to showcase this skill set against 2-0 Indonesian Leo Krishna at ONE FC: 'Return of Warriors' next week and hopes to carry on where he left off last time with another explosive performance.

"I've been to a decision a couple of times and it sucks! I want to finish this fight in the first round, I know Leo Krishna has good BJJ and has won a lot of competitions and he has said he wants to frustrate me so it's going to be up to me to attack him and I plan to win by KO again."

Davis admits that he does cross train in Muay Thai, boxing and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ) but believes that it is his expertise in the obscure martial art known as Wuji Chuan which gives him the edge over opponents who come from more traditional backgrounds.

"Sometimes a trainer look at my stance or the way I do certain things and tell me that I am doing it wrong and try to correct me because my style of fighting is unusual but, so far, it works. Wuji is all about using your instincts and I think it enables you to express yourself more than some martial arts, I try to do stuff that other people haven't seen before because it means they won't be prepared for it."

As a catwalk model with a black belt in Kung Fu the Malaysian does not have the sort of credentials which most MMA fans consider desirable in a fighter. Davis has it all to prove every time he steps inside the cage, particularly after putting in a lacklustre performance on his ONE FC debut, and will need to do something special again at Stadium Putra next Saturday if he is to silence the doubters.

The presence of fighters with unusual or unconventional styles makes the MMA world a much more interesting place and Davis definitely falls into this category. If he can dispense with Krishna in the same style he did Hock then a few more fighters might start to switch Muay Thai and BJJ for some good old fashioned Kung Fu. Everyone cross trains. That's the 1st M in MMA. :rolleyes:

[Kellen Bassette]

You can't call him Kung Fu!!! It doesn't matter how long he trained it, or that he thinks of it as his base, or what techs he draws from it!!! If he cross trains for one day, it's not Kung Fu!!!! :mad:

Saving Bacon the trouble....:rolleyes:

[Kellen Bassette]

Kung Fu based MMA fighter, Peter Davis, improves to 5-1, (I believe) in Pro MMA. He won another fight in One FC this weekend; on the ground this time, with some dirty fighting. Heel kick to his opponents face; (legal in One FC.) 1st round doctor stoppage.

http://www.mmatko.com/peter-davis-vs-leo-krishna-fight-video-one-fc-7-highlights-that-is-one-jacked-up-lip/

[Lucas]

You can't call him Kung Fu!!! It doesn't matter how long he trained it, or that he thinks of it as his base, or what techs he draws from it!!! If he cross trains for one day, it's not Kung Fu!!!! :mad:

Saving Bacon the trouble....:rolleyes:

Don't forget that since its in asia apparently the fights don't count... :rolleyes:

[Kellen Bassette]

Don't forget that since its in asia apparently the fights don't count... :rolleyes:

Of course not, only fights in the USA and Brazil count. Anywhere else all fighters are bums. :rolleyes:

[Phil Redmond]

You can't call him Kung Fu!!! It doesn't matter how long he trained it, or that he thinks of it as his base, or what techs he draws from it!!! If he cross trains for one day, it's not Kung Fu!!!! :mad:

Saving Bacon the trouble....:rolleyes:
Not true. There are kung fu styles based on "cross training"

[Kellen Bassette]

Not true. There are kung fu styles based on "cross training"

Obviously, my post you quoted was a bit of satire. Just rehashing an old argument from another thread. ;)

[GeneChing]

https://usatmmajunkie.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/bruna-ellen-bellator-171.jpg?w=1000&h=600&crop=1

With title in sight, Bellator 210's Bruna Ellen looking to leave no doubts against Kristina Williams (https://mmajunkie.com/2018/11/bruna-ellen-looking-to-leave-no-doubt-vs-kristina-williams-bellator-210)
By: Fernanda Prates | November 28, 2018 7:45 pm

When Bruna Ellen entered the Bellator cage for the first time, at only 20 and only two fights into her MMA career, she wasn’t as intimidated as many would expect a fighter in such conditions to be.

Ellen had, after all, spent a lot of her life taking part kung fu and sanda competitions. She already knew what it was like to venture far from her native Brazil for tournaments, to eat food that she wasn’t used to and to compete in front of crowds that weren’t in her favor.

Still, as the unanimous-decision loss to Jessica Middleton at Bellator 159 reflected, it wasn’t a good night for the flyweight.

“In my (Bellator) debut, I had several problems throughout camp,” Ellen told MMAjunkie. “During the fight, too, I felt weakness, a bunch of things. I got flustered and I went for a takedown, I think in the second round or the first, and I landed underneath her. Even though I had a good head, I felt it.”

Dealing with the unexpected comes with the territory when two people agree to fight each other in a cage. Ellen’s brain, however, clearly had a problem doing that on her first pro loss. So, with the fact of what happened established, she set out to discover the why.

That search led Ellen (4-1 MMA, 2-1 BMMA) to a sports coach, who she’s been working with for the past two years. And, as she rides a two-fight winning streak into Friday’s Bellator 210 appointment with Kristina Williams (2-1 MMA, 2-1 BMMA), it seems to be working.

“Nowadays, my head is a lot better,” Ellen said. “I’m strong not only physically, but mentally, which is even more important – not getting frustrated with anything that happens in the fight. Because there will always be things that we don’t expect. I think we need to program our heads to solve it right away and come up with various solutions, instead of focusing on the problem.

“I’ve learned that and I train it every week. I think it changed everything. Personally, professionally, during training, during the fight, it made a lot of difference.”

When Ellen returns to the cage at WinStar World Casino & Resort in Thackerville, Okla., it will mean the end of a 15-month layoff. That’s hardly the type of time any fighter likes to spend away from the cage – especially a young, otherwise active one like Ellen.

“It was very hard,” Ellen admits, but here’s yet another advantage of her level-headedness; rather than lament the surgery that kept her out of a scheduled meeting with veteran Valerie Letourneau, Ellen says “it only worked to make my hungrier for this one.”

Letourneau would end up going up against Williams, who was no push-over throughout their three-round affair. Still, Letourneau was the one who thrived, thus securing her stab at the flyweight belt that Ilima-Lei Macfarlane currently holds.

But, the way she sees it, Ellen didn’t do too bad for herself, either.

“I’d said I wanted to fight (Williams),” Ellen said. “So when I heard about the fight I liked it, I was happy. I already knew what I had to do. It was good news.”

Ellen likes that Williams has an aggressive, striking-focused style that is similar to hers. That can not only make for a solid scrap, Ellen says, but also present her with the openings to help her accomplish the mission she’s set out to do on Friday.

“Since she always comes in quite open, I can work with that,” Ellen said. “I can work with her attacks. We have a very set strategy with that. I think her game will help me in what I want to do.”

Although “what I want to do” is always, of course, win, Ellen says she isn’t usually too attached to how it happens. With every different opponent comes a different strategy, and the flyweight tries not to let her focus stray too far away from what’s immediately ahead of her.

At the same tome, however, Ellen is not oblivious to her momentum. Or to what it could mean should she convert it into a three-fight winning streak on Friday.

“This fight, in particular, I intend to win well, leaving no doubt,” Ellen said. “Because then I already want to be in the path for the title. I want to finish it within the three rounds.”

Normally, the idea of 22-year-old fighter with only three fights for a major promotion being a world champion could seem a bit out-of-touch with reality. But Ellen’s situation isn’t exactly normal, as a three-fight winning streak in Bellator’s still-building flyweight division certainly means something.

Add to it that this is a main card fight, and that the also relatively inexperienced Williams could have feasibly earned a title shot had she beaten Letourneau, and Ellen’s own stab at the belt could happen soon – “very soon,” Ellen believes.

It’s been a fast road here, Ellen assesses. But, with circumstances and “a really good head” on her side, she also believes things are happening just in time.

“I’m going after the belt and I’m going to work even harder to keep it, which is the hardest part,” Ellen said.

THREADS:
Women in MMA (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?46722-Women-in-MMA)
Kung Fu in MMA (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?46280-Kung-Fu-in-MMA)