The downfall of Traditional Gung Fu

[hskwarrior]

I've been thinking alot about this lately, and i wnted to see some of your opinions.

First, i've always presented myself as a fighter....not for sport....but for survival. So i too am likely to pay attention to modern martial trends, but i like to stay traditional........now until recently i had a different game plan on my teaching. but this question popped up im my mind while driving the other day.


since mma has exploded as it has, i was wondering if anyone felt that mma will become to downfall to traditional martial arts? i no longer teach forms first like the old days. but if a tcma school isn't keeping up with the times.....does that mean that style will ultimately become extinct because of mma?

[nospam]

Good question but I don't think TCMA will suffer hugely. MMAs has been around for a while, just recently the media has placed more emphasis on grappling and it has exploded. Look at TKD, it exploded years ago but it didn't spell the down fall of TCMAs.

I personally feel TCMAs are being watered down due in part to falling prey to the tempo of the day ie) MMAs and the trend to take a little from here and a little from there without ever prefecting either. To me this is watering down systems of TCMA.

Mixing TCMAs isn't necessarily new or a modern trend but the time invested in one style seems to be diminishing; therefore, the return will have a cummulative diminishing effect full circle.

Modern day society is probably having the worst effect on TCMA. We lose precious living history every 10 years as the Elders of many systems either retire or pass along. I don't feel this gap is being filled. Youth are being pulled away in different directions and who will nowaday learn stances and basic techniques for 6 months or more? Then again, for those that teach, this is something that must be realised and incorporated into Today's training methodologies.

I believe most people are drawn to any style of MA because of the person teaching; this being more true for student retention, which is always a problem to any kwoon any style. People will try different kwoons and different styles of MAs but they generally stay due to the head instructor and the facility.

I also believe it is getting harder for teachers/masters to find that 1 person out of 100 students that has what it takes to become an indoor student. Today that is a rare breed: it comes from a belief in the head teacher & the style. Is there enough of these practitioners out there in Today's transient world to stem the bleeding?

nospam
:cool:

[hskwarrior]

nah i don't think so.

but you're right. it's hard to fing that student with just as much passion as you.

all we could do is keep looking.

hsk

[PangQuan]

One hinderance i see in the continuation of TCMA in its true form, some traditions are out dated IMO

many years ago, one would not teach a student much material at the beginning because you didnt want this guy taking off after he proved he was loyal and betraying your styles secrets to enemies.

this was a matter of life and death. if you fought with your martial arts, the more secrets you hold the more un predictable you are.

this is not the case in the modern world. yet this mindset is not being dropped. people are still not teaching you the real deal until you have been around long enough.

this is causing people to stray to things like MMA because they can be taught effective technique and how to apply it RIGHT AWAY.

instead you have a lot of old school TCMA guys trying to be secretive and hold out the material like thier masters did to them and all the way back in the tradition.

I understand the point of not wanting to give someone material to harm others before you think they can handle it. but if you dont give out the good stuff, your students will just go somewhere where they can actually learn to fight and not just dance around for 5 years until the good stuff starts showing up.

I think this mindset is a disease. Modern people want to see effectiveness and utilization or they wont buy into the hype so much. They will just go to the places that will teach you how to fight right away. because well, thats what a lot of people want.

especiall when you talk about adult students. this isnt ancient china. not all of us will begin training as a child and have our psyche formed for us by our teachers. we are already set in our ways, understand right from wrong, and dont need any moral lessons.

we want to learn to fight. thats why we are um in a fighting school....right? so when you get these guys who just want to teach you form and stances for ever and string you along....

well this is the problem. Its getting hard to tell the teachers who are just withholding based on out dated ideals and the total BS schmucks who dont actually have it.

because they often will teach you similarly for the first while, until you find out your teacher is BS or you find out hes the real deal.

either way precious adult years are deteriorating away because the teachers teaching in the MODERN world are using old ideas on how to form the basis for what to teach who.

sometimes people just need to change with the times and not be so static in their presence.

[Shaolinlueb]

we emphasize different stuff then mma. you know so i am not worried. there will always be people who want to learn chinese kung fu.

mma fan boys want to do mma but 90% of them just talk crap.

[lkfmdc]

People need a firm grasp of what they are trying to achieve and also a firm understanding of fact vs fiction when it comes to "traditional" martial arts

At least 50% (I'd say much more) of what people associate with "traditional" is less than 100 years old (much less than 80 years old)

For a teacher who wants to attract and keep students, using methods that were originally designed to discourage students and "weed out" all but the most dedicated are counter productive

The idea that just because your teacher, si-gung or dai si-gung did it then it must be "better" is an obvious obstacle. We live in the 21st century, why train like we are living in the 19th?

The real difference between "traditional" martial arts (Tma) and "Modern/Mixed" martial arts (Mma) is not WHAT they train, it is HOW they train

[PangQuan]

People need a firm grasp of what they are trying to achieve and also a firm understanding of fact vs fiction when it comes to "traditional" martial arts

At least 50% (I'd say much more) of what people associate with "traditional" is less than 100 years old (much less than 80 years old)

For a teacher who wants to attract and keep students, using methods that were originally designed to discourage students and "weed out" all but the most dedicated are counter productive

The idea that just because your teacher, si-gung or dai si-gung did it then it must be "better" is an obvious obstacle. We live in the 21st century, why train like we are living in the 19th?

The real difference between "traditional" martial arts (Tma) and "Modern/Mixed" martial arts (Mma) is not WHAT they train, it is HOW they train

you must have been reading my mind when you wrote this. dang you even said it better than i did and in less words.

Get outa my head!

[PangQuan]

mma fan boys want to do mma but 90% of them just talk crap.

hehe, this made me lol

[lkfmdc]

Get outa my head!

I knew you were going to say that before you wrote it :p

[PangQuan]

lol, you better head over to the main forum and regulate on the seeing the future thread. :eek:

[yutyeesam]

The real difference between "traditional" martial arts (Tma) and "Modern/Mixed" martial arts (Mma) is not WHAT they train, it is HOW they train

This is a great point. The techniques are all there (well, for striking and throwing), it's just where you decide to put the emphasis. Other styles might have more efficient ways of training particular techniques/attributes, so we adapt that into our training regimen.

For example, I just got the NY San Da video #2. David Ross presented a way of pad training that is a great improvement on the old pad drills that I've been using for years, and will definitely incorporate into my classes. I'll modify it a little bit here and there to my CLF style, but it's the method that I'll be using. If you're a teacher, btw, you really need to get this video. It will change your outlook on pad drills.

-123

[PangQuan]

i saw that :p

[hskwarrior]

yeah, i agree about the pad training but i haven't seen dave's video.

i always take the combo's out of the sets and drill them against pads to give them something to strike.

tcma never really emphasized mma type of training. but i'm open to it cause i want my students to be the best fighters they can without leaving our system.

under dino salvatera you only learned hand forms, andthe students began to spar to learn to use our stuff....... but dino salvatera won't stnd there holding a bag while you strike. but i do.

i just hope tcma masters hang on to what they got.

hsk

[PangQuan]

yeah, i agree about the pad training but i haven't seen dave's video.

i always take the combo's out of the sets and drill them against pads to give them something to strike.

tcma never really emphasized mma type of training. but i'm open to it cause i want my students to be the best fighters they can without leaving our system.

under dino salvatera you only learned hand forms, andthe students began to spar to learn to use our stuff....... but dino salvatera won't stnd there holding a bag while you strike. but i do.

i just hope tcma masters hang on to what they got.

hsk


more tcma teachers need this type of mindframe.

[hskwarrior]

well thats why im working at modernizing my choy lee fut. as a student of dino s, i saw what my school lacked and filled in the gaps. we never practiced applications, only forms. we never drilled techniques, we theorized about them.

but in my school i incorporate pad work, light grappling, and applications and also train them as realistically as possible for street encounters.

if they trained for sport thats a different ball game. my new approach is if you want to fight for sport, learn no forms, but absorb the knowledge.


from now on, forms in my school are least important.

[nospam]

sounds like you might want to turn to bak hsing :D

seriously, forms do not need to be least important in a curriculum, one needs to remember they are a tool amongst many. TCMA especially CLF went hog wild on forms. too much emphasis is placed on forms without application in real life situations.

that is interesting Frank. your sifu did not drill techniques or teach applications? the students just got together and sparred?

nospam
:cool:

[David Jamieson]

TCMA is fine. It's even better when it is trained in a realistic atmosphere at levels that everyone is capable of comprehending.

[nospam]

hey Dave, How goes? Long time no se...er read :rolleyes:

hope all is well with you and yours.

here is a clip about change - it's a very interesting listen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmrX3VfG1ZQ

..change can be many different things..

nospam
:cool:

[hskwarrior]

the only think sifu dino ever did was drill basic punches, kicks. but never any applications, never any kind of drills except two man spar forms.

yeah, we used to sparr alot and very wildly. eventually we began to understand our gung fu in a different manner. discovering it for yourself is a method of learning that i find interesting. yeah you can show me how to use gung fu, but if i don't own my gung fu i will always be doing YOUR gung fu.

and buk sing is hung sing so i'd be in the same place.

[hskwarrior]

thinking about it, because i was taugt to own my gung fu, the only one that can make it work for me is.....me. but when i used to get into street fights i always came back as said "i did this, sifu.....where and how did i do that?" then he would ask me to do these moves from one of my sets and show me thats where that is.

but we always applied our gung fu with fighting in mind, and so our PERFORMING was lacking. you can see in our hands we're not playing, but we sacrificed looking nice for effectiveness. that means searching for what doesn't work for you, and learning to make it work.

for myself, since im OG and in that rare group of loyal dedicated students with passion for what they do, i personally feel good about how i was trained. did i wish we hit focus mits, thai pads, or even drill applications.......hell yeah. my classmates and i came up with things to workout.

still, sifu dino learned the same way, and i guess that was type of secret method of training. i guess. but when compared to MMA........yeah we lacked big time in regards to drilling, and applications. but we weren't structured that well and organized either. but im adding in what i feel we never possessed in the first place with my own group of students.

but because sifu dino know how to fight with his clf, we got some of his best. i learned from him when he was my age.......young, still street saavy, hardcore, and at times very gangster. since i came from the streets, this kind of person was respected.

do i have any regrets in my learning from sifu dino...........no.....not at all. got alot of the knowledge from a young sifu dino, now he is old and not that hardcore anymore. signs of getting old i guess.

[nospam]

yin with the yang brother

nospam
:cool:

[The Xia]

So long as there are good sifus and good students, TCMA will survive.
And MMA guys do train different material then TCMA. MMA is pretty much a style based on bits of Boxing, Greco-Roman wrestling, Muay Thai, BJJ, and maybe some Judo. That's where they draw their curriculum from (with some exceptions and give or take a few arts). And I don't usually see them training those arts completely either (maybe with BJJ as an exception). I don't know about you, but I've never seen MMA guys condition their shins against banana trees like Muai Thai guys do.
The style of MMA was a response to a venue. I notice that there are two commonalities in the styles that MMA draws from.
1) They are styles that didn’t have as much baggage as others. What I mean by “baggage” is all the fakes and people who can’t really use their art.
2) They are all sport arts.
That leads me to conclude that MMA, being a sport, drew from sport arts. And that the baggage of TCMA and TJMA (with the exception of Judo), and other TMAs, lead people to believe that it was all useless. When in reality, that baggage is not a true representation of the arts.
Now that MMA is here, I think it’s being successfully marketed and going mainstream. And with that, anti-TMA sentiment will continue to grow.
Facing this wave of anti-TMA sentiment, I think traditionalists should continue to do what has always worked for them and not worry what some MMA people think.
I think what hskwarrior described just now is a traditional style of teaching. If the student shows initiative, he learns to use his Kung Fu. If not, that's his problem.
The world where TCMA came from had lots of violence, so people that trained with a sifu were generally there to learn to fight. Today, where people don't face that kind of violence, fewer people are at kwoons to learn to fight. Therefore, fewer students will take it upon themselves to drill and learn how to use their Kung Fu. But there will always be some that do. So even with that traditional teaching method, Kung Fu can live on. However, if a sifu wants to have more then just a select few of his students able to use their Kung Fu, he can make sure they all drill. Basically, doing what hskwarrior (and many other sifus) are doing.

[hskwarrior]

anyways,

one of the things im trying to do with my gung fu is dvd's now. when it comes to applications, im gonna show the classical approach, but then show how it should be applied due to this error or that one in regards to usage.

all i've ever seen aside from the laceys is classical applications....or how they're done in the set.......but unfortunately real life confrontations are not that predictable. so we train for every possible aspect, and attempt to keep it real as possible. so im gonna show how we'd use it realistically.

like unless you are striking while turning your back........i would never teach my students to turn their backs against someone. like the video of that guy running away......what an effin shame on clf.

peace

[hskwarrior]

xia,

you wanna know something funny? even mma pratice their own forms of forms....they do things repeatedly over and over again, whether with or without someone. they are more similar to us than they realize.....they just train for sport.


you know, in real life combat you can't afford mistakes. just look at the military......they train very little skills but it helps them survive if attacked. they ma they apply is to kill......which is going to take on a different appearance.

[The Xia]

I think that one of the aspects about making the Kung Fu your own is discovering that there is more then one application for a given movement and figuring out which ones work best for you.

[hskwarrior]

exactly.

see, fu pow is almost 7 feet tall. i'm only 5'7". although we may have learned the same techniques, how its going to be applied changes due to the size difference. what works for me isn't going to work for him the same way. that's why i love choy lee fut, everything is so flexible in regards to applications.

owning your gung fu should be everyone's goal. some only thrive on mimmicking their sifu's. i did the same until i began to own my gung fu. being open minded like this is good for students because a sifu can show them more than one way to make it work, but also show him or her how to own it. once you own it, no one can tell you different because only you know what works for YOU and what doesn't.

[The Xia]

xia,

you wanna know something funny? even mma pratice their own forms of forms....they do things repeatedly over and over again, whether with or without someone. they are more similar to us than they realize.....they just train for sport.


you know, in real life combat you can't afford mistakes. just look at the military......they train very little skills but it helps them survive if attacked. they ma they apply is to kill......which is going to take on a different appearance.

exactly.

see, fu pow is almost 7 feet tall. i'm only 5'7". although we may have learned the same techniques, how its going to be applied changes due to the size difference. what works for me isn't going to work for him the same way. that's why i love choy lee fut, everything is so flexible in regards to applications.

owning your gung fu should be everyone's goal. some only thrive on mimmicking their sifu's. i did the same until i began to own my gung fu. being open minded like this is good for students because a sifu can show them more than one way to make it work, but also show him or her how to own it. once you own it, no one can tell you different because only you know what works for YOU and what doesn't.
I've argued that set combinations of punches that boxers train are their versions of forms. Of course, this idea has been rejected by lots of MMA forum types. :D
I think what you said summarizes why we should continue what we're doing in spite of what MMA is doing. We know what Kung Fu is designed for (fighting in situations where life is on the line) and other benefits it yields (like health, fun, etc). If we have what we want, there is no need to change what we are doing. All of the bad teachers and false information creates a lot of confusion. Because of this, many people want the wrong things out of martial arts. And many people who want the right things don’t know how or where to get it. But if you know what’s what, there is no need to worry about what some MMA guys think about what you do. That’s the way I see it.

[hskwarrior]

again exactly:D

if a mma striker got into his fighting stance and repeatedly practiced jab, hook, uppercut, uppercut, diagnal elbow, reverse elbow, jab jab jab........then turned to the right and repeated the same sequence and then did so in other directions, then they are in fact practicing forms. MMA style forms which don't exist technically, but the drill it over and over again.

in fact, i'd like to see some non-descript set of movements from mma techniques and then apply them to how we do our forms. im sure they would notice that they've been practicing MMA style forms all along.

imagine those combo's i just mentioned and then do them in different directions. must be interesting to see imo.

hsk

[David Jamieson]

hey Dave, How goes? Long time no se...er read :rolleyes:

hope all is well with you and yours.

here is a clip about change - it's a very interesting listen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmrX3VfG1ZQ

..change can be many different things..

nospam
:cool:

Hey Naya!

Yeah, haven't peeped on any of your posts for a while. you just come outta a coma or something? :p

I could barely understand that vid, sound was wonky. I'll give it a go on my other system at work.

Hows by you anyway? Still training until collapse and or nausea? That's the way! :D

cheers

[Water Dragon]

Ross pretty much hit the nail in the head.

Also, for some reason a lot of CMA guys think tradition and evolution are mutually exclusive concepts. I don't see it this way.

[David Jamieson]

cma guys?

man, you should visist some karate dojos, tkd do jangs etc etc and have a peep at some real martial arts fantasy camps.

for the most part, cma might like the jammies and such, but there are a lot more cma places that go without the jammies than there are nascar gi wearing jockstraps who are into speed bowing, kowtowing and gargling cultural nonsense outta their heads all day.

I see more goofiness in jma than in cma in my experience. and taekwondo schools are outta control with the military discipline lessons for 5 years olds. lol

[SevenStar]

So long as there are good sifus and good students, TCMA will survive.

so long as there are people who want to train for ANY reason, it will survive. that is why taiji for health is so popular.


And MMA guys do train different material then TCMA. TMA have different concepts, training, techniques, and purposes then MMA.


yeah - I saw the post you deleted...of course it's different, but the techniques and principles have similarities, naturally. No, there is no fu jow in mma as you stated, but there is yielding, borrowing, listeining, pushing, and pretty much every other energy you train in cma.


MMA is pretty much a style based on bits of Boxing, Greco-Roman wrestling, Muay Thai, BJJ, and maybe some Judo.

it's more than just "bits" - it's not uncommon for bjj guys to have extensive judo experience. IME, the coaches have decent experience in what they are teaching. If they don't, it shows when their students compete. Using our club as an example, nobody teaching has less than 8 years of experience in their respective style.


And I don't usually see them training those arts completely either (maybe with BJJ as an exception).

because you don't see them on a regular basis. I don't see cma guys sparring full contact much, but I am not around them on a regular basis either anymore.


I don't know about you, but I've never seen MMA guys condition their shins against banana trees like Muai Thai guys do.

they stopped doing that years ago. Thai camps use heavy bags - sometimes called bananna bags. that's really all you need. And do you know WHY it was the bananna tree that is used? because the bark of them is softer than other types. You would not see them kicking oaks or redwoods if they had them available.


The style of MMA was a response to a venue.

this is true. evolution. grapplers had to strike. strikers had to grapple.


2) They are all sport arts.

judo was used and taught in the military. muay thai was trained by soldiers as well. they are sport arts now, but have not always been.


That leads me to conclude that MMA, being a sport, drew from sport arts. And that the baggage of TCMA and TJMA (with the exception of Judo), and other TMAs, lead people to believe that it was all useless. When in reality, that baggage is not a true representation of the arts.

because they were already established and tested sports, they already had training protocols and had already been competition tested.


Now that MMA is here, I think it’s being successfully marketed and going mainstream. And with that, anti-TMA sentiment will continue to grow.

and as it grows, so will the resentment it gets from TMAs.

[SevenStar]

the only think sifu dino ever did was drill basic punches, kicks. but never any applications, never any kind of drills except two man spar forms.

yeah, we used to sparr alot and very wildly. eventually we began to understand our gung fu in a different manner. discovering it for yourself is a method of learning that i find interesting. yeah you can show me how to use gung fu, but if i don't own my gung fu i will always be doing YOUR gung fu.

and buk sing is hung sing so i'd be in the same place.

that is the point of sparring - well part of the point. For example, another coach and I have known eachother for 12 years, and since then have trained under the same instructors except during one point in time (when I started cma, he started kenpo) we are the same height and similar weight, yet we fight completely differently. It wasn't because we weren't "spoon fed" and had to "discover" it for ourselves, it's because we sparred and competed. THAT is what led us to learn to use what worked best for us, and without the mystery of having to reinvent the wheel. I do agree with what you said here though. There are just different ways of going about it.

[SevenStar]

xia,

you wanna know something funny? even mma pratice their own forms of forms....they do things repeatedly over and over again, whether with or without someone. they are more similar to us than they realize.....they just train for sport.


single technique drills and "forms" are not the same thing. of course we drill - plenty. there are no conventional forms though.

[SevenStar]

I've argued that set combinations of punches that boxers train are their versions of forms. Of course, this idea has been rejected by lots of MMA forum types. :D
I think what you said summarizes why we should continue what we're doing in spite of what MMA is doing. We know what Kung Fu is designed for (fighting in situations where life is on the line) and other benefits it yields (like health, fun, etc). If we have what we want, there is no need to change what we are doing. All of the bad teachers and false information creates a lot of confusion. Because of this, many people want the wrong things out of martial arts. And many people who want the right things don’t know how or where to get it. But if you know what’s what, there is no need to worry about what some MMA guys think about what you do. That’s the way I see it.

To be honest, the mma guys in general don't care about what you do. you will find a few here and there that bash tma, just as you have many mma that bash tma. such is life. But on average, if you look at a forum like mma.tv, like 90% of their topics are mma related, unlike here, where the posters love cma vs mma threads. Where I train, we never mention kung fu or any other style - we just train. When we invited the cashier to train with us, it was him who told us he trained a traditional style and did not need grappling, as he would not go down. It was a tma school talking trash about us that led to a challenge match (the tma guy lost).

[SevenStar]

The real difference between "traditional" martial arts (Tma) and "Modern/Mixed" martial arts (Mma) is not WHAT they train, it is HOW they train

exactly. training methodology is the key.

[David Jamieson]

without getting trapped and tripped by terminology, traditional martial arts can and are trained properly and correctly in many cases and in a few instances, better training than that offered in some mma regimens.


Itg is too easy to fall into a mindset that something is better because it is more immediate and visceral. This is not the case at all.

There are likely as many ,mma schools that do not harness the correct as there are wushu clubs that think they are fighters.

it is also safe to say that the greater percentage of people who train in any martial art be it mma tma or what have you are not fighters at all, don't fight on the streets and do not fight in carded bouts. they are merely training. IN which case, there is no difference because training is just training.

[Vajramusti]

The forum is not a sample version of life. There are still lots of good folks who are practitioners and teachers of TCMA- and they dont all do it for health alone.Most are not on internet chat lists.

joy chaudhuri

[PangQuan]

Ross pretty much hit the nail in the head.

Also, for some reason a lot of CMA guys think tradition and evolution are mutually exclusive concepts. I don't see it this way.

IMO, evolution/adaption is a requirement of tradition. In the old days when people used thier martial arts to fight on a regular or semi regular basis, or they taught the military/gangs for the purpose of combat, they needed to constantly adapt and evolve thier art so it would remain fresh, alive and able to encounter new technologies, methods, tactics, and all the other multitudes of circumstances that can pop up during a fight, war, or what not.

also the more known your art becomes the more people will be able to recognize your style, constantly updating your material will give you the ability to still suprise those who thought they knew what you were all about.

I think this is along the same lines as cross training, though if you havent the ability or desire to cross train, you have to get new material from somewhere. If you dont find the new material yourself you have no other way of getting your hands on it.

[hskwarrior]

i agree with pang quan.

see, in my background i've been in gangs for many years. i had to keep my gung fu tight so not to get caught slippin'. and speaking from a TCMA point of view.....our new enemies are ground fighters cause instead of worrying about a stand up fist fight, you now have to worry this guys gonna shoot in on me, and not by shear luck either.

in the bigger scheme of gung fu's theme........thats good. because if you have a sifu with enough foresight he can adjust the training to accomadate new threats. so now, tcma schools are beginning to focus on anti-grappling to evolve their system. as i said.....good. because we can't sit back on old reputations of our masters to make us good fighters.

nothing wrong with mma, nor tcma. as long as you have the right person coaching you..........mma tends to lean more towards sport fighting while tcma still gears itself for reality training, but hopefully some great fighters will emerge on that competition level-gung fu wise. at least i train my guys with that in mind.

and sevenstar, thanks for your comments as well. you are as always on point.:D
hsk

[PangQuan]

its that mindset you have HSK that is the light at the end of the tunnel in todays modern world and tcma.

I think as more people wake up, open thier eyes and smell the coffee, we will see more kungfu guys getting in the ring to test thier skills.

its the current generation of active teachers and thier students that will decide where we go in the modern world in regards to a competative atmosphere.

from what i have seen though, i dont think we are in to much trouble. a lot of guys know whats up, know what is being demanded by the times and are formulating long term game plans to set things in motion to keep our gear fresh and alive as we can.

[hskwarrior]

sevenstar......

imo..........anything you string together whether advanced or basic is considered a form. not as defined as a tcma form......:D

[hskwarrior]

thanks pangquan......

well, if i can get some guys together i plan to start a little CLF/gung fu based fighting group and call it WARRIOR NATION.....may sound silly, but if you think of what it means or images it conjures up.......you'll understand.

my initial goal is to train clf fighters to represent our system........maybe sanshou or san da to see how that goes.......

but my guys will use clf mixed with their other skills.......and i want people to be able to identify us and say "thats choy lee fut!"


thanks again

[The Xia]

so long as there are people who want to train for ANY reason, it will survive. that is why taiji for health is so popular.
We are talking about the survival of Kung Fu as fighting arts.

yeah - I saw the post you deleted...of course it's different, but the techniques and principles have similarities, naturally. No, there is no fu jow in mma as you stated, but there is yielding, borrowing, listeining, pushing, and pretty much every other energy you train in cma.
No fair! Using deleted posts in your argument! :D
Anyway, I deleted that post and made a much larger one that addresses that issue, albeit, without the Fu Jow example. Anyway, to elaborate on my point I’ll use Wong Fei Hung-Hung Gar as an example. Wong Fei Hung-Hung Gar is built upon the four pillar sets and related conditioning. Sei Ping Ma, Iron Rings, Sam Sing drills, and Iron Hand are all found in the Wong Fei Hung-Hung Gar curriculum. The style’s internal-work is highlighted in the Tid Sin Kuen set. It’s a high level set that requires a solid foundation in the style to learn. The other three pillar sets are Gung Jee Fuk Fu Kuen, Sup Ying Kuen (or Ng Ying Kuen for some lineages), and the Fu Hok Seung Kuen. Depending on the lineage, other sets may be present. But the sets I mentioned are called the four pillars. There are similarities between Wong Fei Hung-Hung Gar and other Southern styles. That’s because of historical relationships. But I think you can plainly see that Wong Fei Hung-Hung Gar is not similar to MMA. All you have to do is watch the sets I mentioned. I mentioned Fu Jow in my deleted post. But that’s just one technique. I don’t see MMA guys using the Ten Killing Hands. That’s because it’s not in the style of MMA. If you look at the training methods, techniques and concepts of Wong Fei Hung-Hung Gar, it is very different from MMA.

it's more than just "bits" - it's not uncommon for bjj guys to have extensive judo experience. IME, the coaches have decent experience in what they are teaching. If they don't, it shows when their students compete. Using our club as an example, nobody teaching has less than 8 years of experience in their respective style.
I mentioned BJJ as the exception I've seen.

because you don't see them on a regular basis. I don't see cma guys sparring full contact much, but I am not around them on a regular basis either anymore.
The difference is that MMA fights are all over TV.

they stopped doing that years ago. Thai camps use heavy bags - sometimes called bananna bags. that's really all you need. And do you know WHY it was the bananna tree that is used? because the bark of them is softer than other types. You would not see them kicking oaks or redwoods if they had them available.
I have seen videos of modern Muay Thai guys using banana trees. I can’t say if it’s common though. Anyway, about heavy bags, the bottom is hard. Heavy bags are usually hung from the ceiling. I don’t see how a heavy bag (even the bottom) can condition as well as something like a banana tree. Especially since banana trees are rooted in the ground. I would find that a more stable target if my purpose was to condition my shins. I also remember reading that some Muay Thai guys used to condition their forearms with pipes. I don’t see MMA guys doing that! :D

judo was used and taught in the military. muay thai was trained by soldiers as well. they are sport arts now, but have not always been.
That may be the case. But they are still sport arts. If you look at styles like Bak Mei, Hung Gar, or Choy Lay Fut, they are designed to kill and cripple your opponent. They are a response to a violent environment. Although you don’t have to use them for that, that’s what they were designed and used for. A good practitioner should know how to use them to that end if he needs to.

because they were already established and tested sports, they already had training protocols and had already been competition tested.
It would make sense that a new sport style draws from established sport arts. Then there is the “baggage” part that I mentioned

and as it grows, so will the resentment it gets from TMAs.
It’s only natural for resentment to be met with resentment. But take a look at how I said traditionalists should deal with the growth of MMA.

To be honest, the mma guys in general don't care about what you do. you will find a few here and there that bash tma, just as you have many mma that bash tma. such is life. But on average, if you look at a forum like mma.tv, like 90% of their topics are mma related, unlike here, where the posters love cma vs mma threads. Where I train, we never mention kung fu or any other style - we just train. When we invited the cashier to train with us, it was him who told us he trained a traditional style and did not need grappling, as he would not go down. It was a tma school talking trash about us that led to a challenge match (the tma guy lost).
From my own experience, I think that the MMA vs. TMA thing started out, and is still largely, an internet thing. But I have seen some spillover into the non-digital world of people with faces and real names. Take a look at that Eddie Bravo video.

[Eddie]

see, fu pow is almost 7 feet tall. i'm only 5'7". although we may have learned the same techniques, how its going to be applied changes due to the size difference. what works for me isn't going to work for him the same way. that's why i love choy lee fut, everything is so flexible in regards to applications.



Size doesn’t influence applications, skill does. Having said that, a smaller guy would (for example) probably be better at low foot sweeps because it would be easier for him to execute than it would be for someone who weighs say 100 kilos.

Martial Arts (TCMA, MMA etc) is all about skill and application. If you don’t emphasise that, you’re lost.

I’m not always sure what people mean when they speak of ‘traditional’ sparring methods. I see Martial Arts more as an application of methods, than anything else.

When it comes to stand up (and throwing), I don’t think that CMA lack anything. My only concern is when it comes to ground work. I see the value of being proficient on the floor, however, in my experience in this country, I’d say its probably less important (for now) to know that range of fighting (for self defence) than it is for someone from other countries (say USA) where wrestling is more common.

As for competition sparring, from a stand up point of view, I think San Da / San shou can stand up against the best of it. The rules allow for throws and take downs, elbows and knees (san da) and all ranges of kicking. Pretty complete for a stand up competition discipline if you ask me.

However, the fact that we are all so concerned about the development of MMA, obviously shows our insecurities.

[Ben Gash]

Size doesn’t influence applications, skill does.
Not true. There are numerous throws, locks and traps that require major modifications if there's a big size difference. Not to mention that everyone's height:reach ratio is deifferent, so a combo that works like a dream for you may not be so good for me.
I've always felt that the problem with a lot of TCMA schools is they treat their art like a history lesson, rather than a fighting art. Forms aren't the least important thing at my club, but they're not the most important either. I think and talk a lot about training matrices, with forms,drills,basics,sensitivity,pads and sparring all having a valuable place in the matrix. The key is to get the balance right.
The thing I never get is how come it was the MMA people who developed the perfect Kung Fu sparring glove?
Why do Kung Fu people feel defensive about MMA? Might have a little something to do with the inflammatory self promoting of Rorion Gracie :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

eddie,

ben's got it right. n as i said, size will have a great part to play when it comes to usage. personally since i'm kinda big for a short guy i like to and know how to use my body weight. since my students are not built like me i have to show them the same stuff modified to work for them.

one is skinny so i focus on speed, power comes with speed so only have one thing to focus on......fu pow has different attributes than your average guy so his training should have been for him and not generalized.

height, weight, reach, level of aggression and so forth all come into play when training. i consider all that. because as people we are not the same.

to answer ben's question as a tcma..........i'm not worried about mma. im worried about people believing tcma is becoming outdated.......and mma is the only way to go.........

[Vajramusti]

I never worry about the rise of different spectator sports. TCMA was not for mass production. If people go for mma -I say-let them.

joy chaudhuri

[hskwarrior]

well, the one thing i don't have to worry about is if mma exploded even more,,,i wouldn't have to close down my school cuz of no students.

my whole point was I hope tcma doesn't get blinded by all the glitz and glamour of mma and become discouraged against learning tcma.

as long as tcma steps up their game and stop riding the coattails of yesteryear.....then tcma will be back on the rise.

hell, in mma i can tell who has ma background and who just started learning mma to get into the sport. in the ufc there are some horrible strikers, but the ones who are pretty good usually have some form of tma training.

anyone agree?

[SevenStar]

We are talking about the survival of Kung Fu as fighting arts.

same thing applies. you have people teaching that have never been in a fight in their adult lives. but many of these same people are teaching fighting skills. since many people do not test themselves, they are training under the assumption that they are learning how to fight.


No fair! Using deleted posts in your argument! :D
Anyway, I deleted that post and made a much larger one that addresses that issue, albeit, without the Fu Jow example. Anyway, to elaborate on my point I’ll use Wong Fei Hung-Hung Gar as an example. Wong Fei Hung-Hung Gar is built upon the four pillar sets and related conditioning. Sei Ping Ma, Iron Rings, Sam Sing drills, and Iron Hand are all found in the Wong Fei Hung-Hung Gar curriculum. The style’s internal-work is highlighted in the Tid Sin Kuen set. It’s a high level set that requires a solid foundation in the style to learn. The other three pillar sets are Gung Jee Fuk Fu Kuen, Sup Ying Kuen (or Ng Ying Kuen for some lineages), and the Fu Hok Seung Kuen. Depending on the lineage, other sets may be present. But the sets I mentioned are called the four pillars. There are similarities between Wong Fei Hung-Hung Gar and other Southern styles. That’s because of historical relationships. But I think you can plainly see that Wong Fei Hung-Hung Gar is not similar to MMA. All you have to do is watch the sets I mentioned. I mentioned Fu Jow in my deleted post. But that’s just one technique. I don’t see MMA guys using the Ten Killing Hands. That’s because it’s not in the style of MMA. If you look at the training methods, techniques and concepts of Wong Fei Hung-Hung Gar, it is very different from MMA.

mma has techniques cma doesn't have as well. but watch them fight and what do you see?


I mentioned BJJ as the exception I've seen.

I would add wrestling and mt to that list.


The difference is that MMA fights are all over TV.

the difference is that there aren't as many cma competing.


I have seen videos of modern Muay Thai guys using banana trees. I can’t say if it’s common though. Anyway, about heavy bags, the bottom is hard. Heavy bags are usually hung from the ceiling. I don’t see how a heavy bag (even the bottom) can condition as well as something like a banana tree. Especially since banana trees are rooted in the ground. I would find that a more stable target if my purpose was to condition my shins. I also remember reading that some Muay Thai guys used to condition their forearms with pipes. I don’t see MMA guys doing that! :D

bananna bags are like six feet tall. you can rest the bottom of it in a tire and it is plenty stable for conditioning. repeated striking causes the filling to settle at the bottom. when this happens, you turn the bag upside down. look at any footage of a camp and you will see loads of heavy bags, not trees. from what I have seen and heard, kicking trees would be in the vast minority.


That may be the case. But they are still sport arts. If you look at styles like Bak Mei, Hung Gar, or Choy Lay Fut, they are designed to kill and cripple your opponent. They are a response to a violent environment. Although you don’t have to use them for that, that’s what they were designed and used for. A good practitioner should know how to use them to that end if he needs to.

it was not a sport at that time. however, this is where the too deadly thing tends to come in...


It’s only natural for resentment to be met with resentment. But take a look at how I said traditionalists should deal with the growth of MMA.

resentment from whom? mma didn't start it.

[SevenStar]

well, the one thing i don't have to worry about is if mma exploded even more,,,i wouldn't have to close down my school cuz of no students.

my whole point was I hope tcma doesn't get blinded by all the glitz and glamour of mma and become discouraged against learning tcma.

as long as tcma steps up their game and stop riding the coattails of yesteryear.....then tcma will be back on the rise.

hell, in mma i can tell who has ma background and who just started learning mma to get into the sport. in the ufc there are some horrible strikers, but the ones who are pretty good usually have some form of tma training.

anyone agree?

I don't think it's that. the sloppy strikers just don't have a striking background. they are bjj guys, wrestlers, etc. the good strikers have a striking background in SOMETHING, be it thai, boxing or tma. most of the guys who did do tma tho - liddel, louisseau, st pierre, etc. abandoned it for muay thai at some point.

[Fu-Pow]

I agree with what's been stated by Sevenstar and others.

MMA is a methodology rather than a style. You could throw together any combination of arts/techniques and come up with a "mixed" martial art. However, I think that it would have to cover stand up, clinch and ground fighting.

Most traditional styles incorporate stand up and clinch. Most CMA styles historically don't have much in the way of ground fighting so you'd have to incorporate it from another source, like BJJ, Di Tang or wrestling.

Then its just a matter of creating some sort of competition to test skills, that incorporates all the ranges of fighting....BAM....you got MMA from traditional.

Its that last part thats the hardest to swallow for traditional martial arts teachers. That means that teachers are going to have to get in with their students and demonstrate skills, which is a scary proposition....they might lose!!!

(As a side note: I think that for any MMA competition that there should be a time limit for getting a tapout on the ground. MMA should mimick as much as possible realistic situations. Rolling on the ground for 1/2 hour is not realistic, if you value your teeth.)

FP

[The Xia]

same thing applies. you have people teaching that have never been in a fight in their adult lives. but many of these same people are teaching fighting skills. since many people do not test themselves, they are training under the assumption that they are learning how to fight.
There are also plenty of sifus out there that do know how to use their Kung Fu. Plenty of sifus have sparred and have students that spar. And there are sifus around that have experienced street fighting.

mma has techniques cma doesn't have as well. but watch them fight and what do you see?
The striking that I see from most MMA isn’t that great. It’s also usually limited to a few basic punches and kicks. However, some are excellent grapplers. That’s what I see.

I would add wrestling and mt to that list.
I’ll add wrestling. But I’d have to see MMA guys going through all the conditioning that Muay Thai guys do in order to add it to the list. Also, I don't generally see the kind of quality striking in MMA as I do in Muay Thai.

the difference is that there aren't as many cma competing.
Perhaps not in MMA formats. But there are venues like San Shou and Lei-Tai that TCMA compete in.

bananna bags are like six feet tall. you can rest the bottom of it in a tire and it is plenty stable for conditioning. repeated striking causes the filling to settle at the bottom. when this happens, you turn the bag upside down. look at any footage of a camp and you will see loads of heavy bags, not trees. from what I have seen and heard, kicking trees would be in the vast minority.
Wouldn’t you want to keep the filling to continue moving to the bottom so that the striking surface gets gradually harder? Do you think that banana trees afford more or different benefits then banana bags? I know that a lot of FMA still use them. And what about the pipes I mentioned?

it was not a sport at that time. however, this is where the too deadly thing tends to come in...
Despite the fact that both arts have been used for other purposes, if I'm not mistaken, Muay Thai as a sport is ancient and Judo has been a sport since its inception. And what do you mean “too deadly”? It’s well known that the styles I mentioned were designed to kill and cripple.

resentment from whom? mma didn't start it.
How can you be sure of that?

[Eddie]

Not true. There are numerous throws, locks and traps that require major modifications if there's a big size difference. Not to mention that everyone's height:reach ratio is deifferent, so a combo that works like a dream for you may not be so good for me.

Nope, Im right. There are girls in our school who can execute proper throws on larger guys by only using correct technique. I have also been on the receiving end of locks and throws done by two different Chinese masters. I once had to be the fall guy for Master Wong Guan Quan at a demo done for the SA Police. He showed some chin na and throws that comes from Taiji and shaolin martial arts. Master Wong weighs about 50 kilos and is probably half my height. He managed to throw me around like a rag doll. Even more recently, past Monday night I had the (mis)Fortune to be on the receiving end of some chin na applications demonstrated by Sifu Chow Keung.

I can honestly assure you size is less important, and proper executing of technique is the key to successful application.

[Ben Gash]

I'm not saying that if you're small then you can't do applications, I'm saying that if there is a significant size difference then the way the technique is applied will by necessity be different. Instead of pushing up you'll push forwards, instead of going over the arm you'll go under or across it. If you're much shorter than me, say like Frank, your Poon Kiu will have more lateral movement and less vertical movement than mine, but it'll still be Poon Kiu, and it'll still be correct.:rolleyes:

[Eddie]

hence my comment about skill.

[hskwarrior]

of course things like throws and such anyone can execute if done correctly.

but check this out eddie......once in a tournament fight i fought in the heavyweight division but since i'm vertically challenged and heavy set at that everyone i fought was way taller........one guy i literally had to jump to hit him in the head with a sow choy.......however all my life i've done and got pretty good with sow choys....but because of this guys height i had to changed up how i did my sow choy on him..

maybe the subtle changes are just that for you tooooo subtle......thats okay tho.

but eddie, try not to be sooooo closed minded.....it's not allowing you to see from different perspectives. just a thought;)

[Eddie]

not being closed minded at all. if anything ...

I once had a sparring partner who was much shorter than me. He wasnt limited in application at all.

All im saying is, that I dont think its fair to use that as an excuse. I would want to use the excuse that im twice the size of ... say CLFNole ... thats why I cant be as fast as him? Or my stances wouldnt be as solid as his' just because im three times heavier?

Is that not just making excuses?

[hskwarrior]

Never Said "limited" When It Comes To Usage.......only Modification Is What I Meant. Because Of Many Different Reasons, We As Teachers Have To Modify Our Stuff To Make It Work For An Individual.

Remember, Gungfu Or Ma Period Is Not A Group Endeavor.......it's Always Been Individualistic And Specific. Things Have To Change From Person To Person Or Our Gung Fu Would Never Work.


But Eddie, You're Missing The Point........there Are Many Things In Gung Fu That You Have To Modify......adapt.......change If You Will To Make It Work For You. If People Were To Only Use Their Gung Fu As It Is In Forms, Then It Would Never Work At All.

If I Execute A Cross Over Sweep Into A Fu Jow And The Fu Jow Is Supposed To Be At Your Own Face Level, But Your Face Is 2 Feet Above Mine, Then The Way I've Been Practicing My Fu Jow Is Wrong. But If I'm Going To Make If Work For Me, I Have To Be Open Minded Enough To Change The Perameters Of How Our Clf Is Going To Be Used To Make It Work For Me.

A Person 5 Ft Tall Isn't Going To Be Able To Throw A Sow Choy AS EASY AS Against A 6'5" Person. It Just Aint Going To Happen Unless You Do Something To Modify It. If Gung Fu Never Gets Modified For The Individual Then That Individual Is Practicing For Nothing. Just Forms Like A Robot.

But A Smart Martial Artist Will Take What He Has From The Forms And Change It....adapt It......modify It To Make It Work For Him. That Is What We Were Talking About.

[hskwarrior]

Adaptation Is One Major Key.

See, Im More Closer To The Ground Than Say Someone Over 6 Feet. My Center Of Gravity Is Going To Be Different Than His.

If You Were The 6 Foot Guy......fighting A 5'7" Guy Like Me You Are Going To Have To Change Your Gameplan Or I May Get The Best Of You.......

The Tall Guy Has To Adapt To Fight The Shorter......vice Versa..........but If You Train To Fight Guys 6 Feet Or Over......than Its My Opinion The Little Guys Are Going To Have The Advantage.........he Won't Change How He Does Things But I Will........especially When Fighting Someone Taller, With Longer Legs And Reach.......all This Comes Into Mind.

But If You Don't See The Point Thats Cool Eddie.;)

[Eddie]

I understand. But again, its more about skill and the ability to apply your skill.
Im not questining anyones ability either, merely speaking hypothetically.

BTW (slightly off topic) about two issues back, there was an artickle in kung fu magazine on how to stregnthen your back fist. I have been doing those drills that the guy showed there, and I must say I am seeing good results.

[hskwarrior]

Skill Is Skill Eddie. People Work Hard For That.

But, Those People With The Skill Also Understand That There Is More Than One Way To Execute A Said Technique Because Each And Every Person Is Going To Be Different.

Eddie, I Hope You Never Take Anyone For Granted. Some Martial Artists Are So Sure They Know What They Are Talking About And Get Caught Sleeping. I Don't Think This Of You, But Keep An Open Mind About Everything In Martial Arts.

I Know You Are (open Minded) Cuz You're Adding In Chow Keung's Gung Fu Or Supplimenting It With Yours. Thats Great.

I Hope You See What Im Referring To. Im Not Sure You Do Though.

[Eddie]

no no no, I understand what you are saying. Im also not taking anything for granted. Im actually always happy even with little bits and pieces. The very last person to take things for granted.

But there is only one way to get better at fighting, and thats by actually practicing it.

The comments I made about excuses was mostly hinted towards myself. Im often quick to make excuses about my own (dis)abilities :eek: .

as for fighting, Im also probably more inclined towards competition san shou, as that is where my interest lies. Street fighting is all cool and that, but frankly, I have had more than enough of that for now. I enjoy Competition San Shou because of the rules, and as I have said before, I can still use my CLF without compromising much on application.

Perhaps you're just not reading my post with the intend I have in mind. Perhaps you just need a good azz kicking by me ;)

what do you say? you going to fly down here, or must I come over to your hood to show you whos the bozz?


;)

[hskwarrior]

I Would Love To Focus On San Shou And Stuff. But Unfortunately Every Where You Turn Out Here In The Bay Area You Have To Be On Your Toes. People Are Stressed Out Here, And Anything Can Trigger It Off.

For Example, A Guy Once Cut Me Off On The Freeway And Slowed The Eff Down Considerably In The Fast Lane. I Changed Lanes And Got In Front Of Him. Once I Did That He Began To Harrass Me On The Road. He Pulled Off The Freeway And Followed Me And My Girl. We Pulled Into A Blockbuster I Got Out The Car. When The Guy Saw I Was Kinda Big.....he Took Off In A Hurry.....my Girl Can Verify That. It Was Funny Cus He Thought He Was Going To Do Something. And That Story Is On The Lighter Side Of Things.

Getting Into A Street Fight Here Can Happen At Any Time For Any Reason. So If You AreN'T Up To The Threat At The Drop Of A Dime, You Are Going To Be On The Losing End. So Street Fighting Is A Reality Here. But I Try To Keep My Guys From Getting Into Them.

[hskwarrior]

Lmao........

Come To My Hood Eddie. You May Even Stay............its A Nice Place, But You Just Have To Keep Your Eyes Open And Your Wits About You.

Aside From That......you May Never Want To Leave Eddie.;)

I Need An Azz Whoopin.........thanks Man For The Offer:d

[Eddie]

Dont you hate street violence?! :cool:

Lucky we dont have those kind of problems down here :rolleyes:

[Eddie]

I'd love to live in the USA. You guys have all the cool stuff there.
Sadly Im stuck in this godforsaken place it seems.
I was soooo looking forward to today. Sifu Chow's student from China was coming down here today. Hes also into san shou and would have been an awsome training partner. Sadly, local immigration denied the poor boy access to our country and only blamed it on incorrect administration. He filled out the wrong form, and although he had a valid visa, the stubborn customs official enjoyed the little power trip he was on. But so are the days of our lives .... :(

[hskwarrior]

Yeah, One Side Of Me Hates Street Violence And Wishes I Could Move To A Quieter Place Where There's Not Soooo Much Drama.

But Since This Is The Environment I Grew Up In And All I Know.......one Side Of Me Keeps An Eye On The Street.

Until Now, Most Of My Friends Were Thugs, Gangsters, Dealers, Or Just Plain Street Fighters.

But Even They've Come To See The Light About Getting Out Of This Environment. Since I Began Seriously Teaching, I Don't Want Tooo Much Of That Lifestyle To Stick Around. But I Do Still At Times Like To See A Good Street Fight......as Long As Its Just A Fight And No Weapons, Or Death.

But Until This World Becomes Peaceful.........i Can't Drop My Guard.

[Fu-Pow]

not being closed minded at all. if anything ...

I once had a sparring partner who was much shorter than me. He wasnt limited in application at all.

All im saying is, that I dont think its fair to use that as an excuse. I would want to use the excuse that im twice the size of ... say CLFNole ... thats why I cant be as fast as him? Or my stances wouldnt be as solid as his' just because im three times heavier?

Is that not just making excuses?

Amen brother. As a big guy in MA you are kind of screwed in people's perception of you as a fighter. If you win it's because you are big. If you lose its because the smaller guy had skill. It could never be that you are big and you had skill.

I think its a way for smaller guys to save their egos when they lose.

Also it doesn't take into account all the other factors in winning and losing like timing, speed, strength, endurance, attitude, strategy, etc.

[SevenStar]

There are also plenty of sifus out there that do know how to use their Kung Fu. Plenty of sifus have sparred and have students that spar. And there are sifus around that have experienced street fighting.

sparring is not the same as testing yourself.


The striking that I see from most MMA isn’t that great. It’s also usually limited to a few basic punches and kicks. However, some are excellent grapplers. That’s what I see.

I see a lot of sub par cma striking as well, but that's not my point. the point is that when you watch san shou, you see jabs, crosses, hooks, uppercuts, etc. just as in mma. they use the same basic striking.


Perhaps not in MMA formats. But there are venues like San Shou and Lei-Tai that TCMA compete in.

there are venues, but nowhere near as many. if they had similar demand as mma, meaning a similar number of competitors, you would see more venues.


Wouldn’t you want to keep the filling to continue moving to the bottom so that the striking surface gets gradually harder?

not necessarily. they have to condition the hands as well.


And what about the pipes I mentioned?

fwiw, I used to do a three star drill on a concrete pillar that was in our old school, and hit my forearms with kali sticks. however, from an mma and muay thai standpoint, it is not necessary - they don't do forearm strikes.


Despite the fact that both arts have been used for other purposes, if I'm not mistaken, Muay Thai as a sport is ancient and Judo has been a sport since its inception. And what do you mean “too deadly”? It’s well known that the styles I mentioned were designed to kill and cripple.

they have fought muay thai for ages- the soldiers did it for various reasons - but it wasn't officially a sport until 1920. and that is exactly what I mean by "too deadly" - what it was designed for eventually became a scapegoat for some people.


How can you be sure of that?

notice there was never really any tma vs grappling or mma talk until rorion started using the statistic that 80 percent of fights go to the ground. it seems tma took offense, and that is when it got started, or at least became noticeable.

[hskwarrior]

I'm Not Sure Tma Got Offended By The Going To The Floor Comment.

At Least I Didn't. In Street Fights It Usually Does Go To The Floor.....and Then Some Fights Are Over So Fast That No Time To Hit The Floor. Except For The One Knocked Out. If You Are A Martial Artist And Ignore That Fact, Then You Are Going To Be The One Knocked Out.

Being Able To Throw A Punch Isn't The Easiest Thing To Do......as Teacher I See Novices Always Throwing Punches That Can Hurt Themselves First.
Learning To Strike The Right Way Takes Time.

Now,

Forearm Strikes Are A Big Part Of Choy Lee Fut. Some Think Its Just Aimed At The Head. But In Clf We Use Forearm Strikes To The Torso, The The Head, To The Arms, Legs And So Forth. We Train To Have Tough Forearms Much The Way Muay Thai Would Their Legs.

However, The Real Issue Is This............if Tcma Trained The Way We Should Have....long Ago..........then Mma Would Be Filled With All Types Of Tcma Fighters. Real Tcma Fighters Realize That More Than 50% Of Our Gung Fu Gets Thrown Out For Being Non Effective In Today's World.

It Doesn't Matter If You Have 200 Hand Forms.........there Are Only So Many Ways To Punch, Kick, Block, Throw........and So On..........so My Sifu Always Told Me To Pick At Least 7 Different Basice Techniques And Master Those.

I Think One Of The Reasons Why Tcma Tends To Look More Like Kick Boxing In The Heat Of The Moment, Is Because You Haven't Trained To Use Your Gung Fu Realistically And Were Brainwashed By The Mumbo Jumbo Of Fancy And Difficult Techniques......if You Were To Train Realistically Then You Would Realize That Only Part Of Your System Actually Works As It Should.

Tcma People Today Are Still Amonst The Mindset Of "throw A Punch At My Nose With Your Left Hand. Use It In A Jab, And Do It On The Count Of 3." .....................when Tcma People Say "just Throw Anything And I Will React Accordingly" Then We Will Start Entering The Mma Scene. Too Many People Depending On The "style" To Get You Thru......when Its The Fighter Using The Style.

The Fighter Absorbs The Style And Incorporates It Into What He Naturally Does..........you Should Never Become The Style. I Think Tcma Hasn't Gotten Past This Yet.

[SevenStar]

Being Able To Throw A Punch Isn't The Easiest Thing To Do......as Teacher I See Novices Always Throwing Punches That Can Hurt Themselves First.
Learning To Strike The Right Way Takes Time.

agreed.


Forearm Strikes Are A Big Part Of Choy Lee Fut.

which is why the conditioning xia mentioned is pertinent to you guys, but for us, not so much.


It Doesn't Matter If You Have 200 Hand Forms.........there Are Only So Many Ways To Punch, Kick, Block, Throw........and So On..........so My Sifu Always Told Me To Pick At Least 7 Different Basice Techniques And Master Those.

definitely. my judo coach told me something similar. become intimately familiar with one throw for each direction of off balance - 8 throws - and of those 8, have three as your bread and butter throws.


I Think One Of The Reasons Why Tcma Tends To Look More Like Kick Boxing In The Heat Of The Moment, Is Because You Haven't Trained To Use Your Gung Fu Realistically And Were Brainwashed By The Mumbo Jumbo Of Fancy And Difficult Techniques......if You Were To Train Realistically Then You Would Realize That Only Part Of Your System Actually Works As It Should.

bingo. basics are key.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The gun was considered the downfall of all martial arts, and that's why the emphasis shifted to martial arts for health.

For the average person doing martial arts, they aren't going to encounter anything that dangerous in their lifetime, so they practice martial arts for staying fit and relaxing.

Always in martial arts history those that needed more than that, learned more than that.

I don't understand this new hatred against forms, I mean all they are is a method to memorize the movements, you never were supposed to learn forms and not do applications and drills, they are two sides of one coin.

I think the main reason people aren't being taught to use the moves in their forms correctly is that teachers are afraid of getting sued if a student gets hurt.

Plus, its up to you to deeply ponder the movements and see what works with them. The teacher can't do anything for you if you don't take the time to work with the forms you learn and see what makes them tick.

Where is your effort? I think the teacher is responsible to teach you correct body mechanics, first and formost, then strategy via forms, then some application to open your eyes to possibilities. There are hundreds of application per movement in each form. After that point, it is up to you ONLY to use the movements and analyze them and make them natural to you so that you can bring out countless applications to them.

I think the problem today is laziness.

MMA is no miracle stuff, there isn't anything that they teach in MMA that hasn't already been taught in traditional MA everywhere.

I'm sure that once the get bored of the hard work involved in MMA, people will drop it too, like they do with everything.

I have seen this happening every 3 years since I first started doing martial arts in the 1970s.
A year of people finding out "something new and better" and then a year of everyone joining, and a year of people dropping out one by one as it becomes hard work to keep it up.
There has been the equivalent to MMA since way back then, always something new coming along to "speed up" learning how to fight without forms:
Jimmy Woo's San Soo, JKD, and on an on.
But always, those that really understand traditional martial arts and what almost 5,000 years of development is conveying, always are still there.

All I know, I have used traditional martial arts (CMA) since the 70s in self defense all over the world, and it never failed me.

[mantis108]

The gun was considered the downfall of all martial arts, and that's why the emphasis shifted to martial arts for health.

Well, gun isn't the downfall of all martial arts. If it's so, we (TCMA) wouldn't have to deal with Judo, BJJ, MMA, or even San Shou, remember these are benchmark testing ground for effective hand to hand combat that came AFTER the advent of firearms. The real problem is that irresponsible TCMA teachers that hide behind excuses (ie firearms) and misdirection (ie psuedo-philosophy). The fact is TCMA devolved instead of evolve.


For the average person doing martial arts, they aren't going to encounter anything that dangerous in their lifetime, so they practice martial arts for staying fit and relaxing.

This is mainly a problem of consumerism in TCMA. I don't want to put the blame solely on Bruce Lee but in the North American market all the new generation Kung Fu or TMA guys had a little JKD complex in them if you ask me no small thanks to the on and off screen successes of Bruce. He has become a large than life legend that all Kung Fu or TMA guys secretly or openly idolize or fantazied to become. People don't generally come to TMA for fitness. They thought they are coming to get a self preservation insurance policy. It is the irresponsible teachers that convince them that they should be getting a fitness and fantasy plan which will carry them all the way to retirement [and of course they have to pay a long term contrat for that].


Always in martial arts history those that needed more than that, learned more than that.

People in general don't understand the difference between arts and crafts. You get crafts from McDojo and Mckwoon. Crafts is about comfort zone and conforming. Arts is about transcending and non confornming. Arts is also about thousands of failures before one success. You won't have a business if you sell arts.


I don't understand this new hatred against forms, I mean all they are is a method to memorize the movements, you never were supposed to learn forms and not do applications and drills, they are two sides of one coin.

Most people don't understand the heart and soul (or keys) to the system. They see a form and they see patterns of movements. They don't see meaning of a form - strategic advantage of patterns of movement (tactics) from the style's attribute (technical keys) point of view. This problem is definitely the low quality of teachers in TCMA.


I think the main reason people aren't being taught to use the moves in their forms correctly is that teachers are afraid of getting sued if a student gets hurt.

Yet another excuse to hide inexperience in fighting and teaching. No one has sued Judo, BJJ, Boxing, Muay Thai, MMA, or San Shou schools for that matter in North America yet. They have their "athletes" go as hard as they can and we have seen injuries that are career ending. Now of course, we can argue that they don't teach dirty tactics such as eye gouging and such but realistically, you won't have much student left if you do spar that way all the time. But is it really impossible to take out all the "dangerous" techniques in your style and allow the style to be effective? Look at Judo, it took out most of the "dangerous" techniques from Ju Jitsu and remains effective. There really is no valid excuse for TCMA to hold onto those so called dangerous techniques and refuses to evolve.


Plus, its up to you to deeply ponder the movements and see what works with them. The teacher can't do anything for you if you don't take the time to work with the forms you learn and see what makes them tick.

It's not about the patterns of movements (tactics) not even the strategy for that matter. It's in the attribute (technical keys) of the style. The teacher must know how to training the specific attributes of the style (ie striker strikes, grappler grapples, etc). To borrow a JKD concept term, it is the attribute training and the energy drills that are important. Those are the key areas that make a style work.


Where is your effort? I think the teacher is responsible to teach you correct body mechanics, first and formost, then strategy via forms, then some application to open your eyes to possibilities. There are hundreds of application per movement in each form. After that point, it is up to you ONLY to use the movements and analyze them and make them natural to you so that you can bring out countless applications to them.

I am sorry, the above statement is just where the problem begins. While it is true that there are myriad of applications and counters to any given movement, fighting is a subtle science and exact art that doesn't simply always revolve around that line of thinking. This is where conditioning (athleticism) and attribute training come in. It's not about conforming through reasoned or scripted responses. It's about spontaneous exchange of information in energy form. Phyiscal confrontations usually evolve without a script and the energy evolves as well.

IMHO a good TCMA teacher does not need forms (routines) to teach fighitng. He needs personal experiences in fighting and in understanding the style specific attribute training to teach fighting ideal through a game format but definitely not solo repetition of finite techniques, meaningness tactics or hollow strategy.




that I agree 120%

[quote]MMA is no miracle stuff, there isn't anything that they teach in MMA that hasn't already been taught in traditional MA everywhere.

I also totally agree with this.


I'm sure that once the get bored of the hard work involved in MMA, people will drop it too, like they do with everything.

MMA, like many other martial sports, it has a clear defined goal and a well develop game format. TCMA can do that if it develops a "game". If you want to say Chin Na is the best game of your style, then you should be able to use Chin Na against a resistive opponent no matter what he or she does. If it's a combination of striking, kicking, throwing, and grappling (like Mantis does), well great, get a format that has all those. You don't feel like calling it UFC, Pride, NHB, call it whatever as long as you are using all those that you claim is what your style is about (without the damaging or lethal stuff of course).


I have seen this happening every 3 years since I first started doing martial arts in the 1970s.
A year of people finding out "something new and better" and then a year of everyone joining, and a year of people dropping out one by one as it becomes hard work to keep it up.
There has been the equivalent to MMA since way back then, always something new coming along to "speed up" learning how to fight without forms:
Jimmy Woo's San Soo, JKD, and on an on.
But always, those that really understand traditional martial arts and what almost 5,000 years of development is conveying, always are still there.

All I know, I have used traditional martial arts (CMA) since the 70s in self defense all over the world, and it never failed me.

That's great about you and your stuff. But what about your students? Could they all use that? We have seen or heard of tone of good fighters in TCMA but is much success in the ring for these good fighter's students or grand students? I am not questioning your ability to teach but it's not a model that is common to most TCMA. Hell, there just isn't a standard in TCMA for all we know. So...

Warm regards,

Mantis108

[The Xia]

sparring is not the same as testing yourself.
Yes you are. You are testing to see if you can use your art.

I see a lot of sub par cma striking as well, but that's not my point. the point is that when you watch san shou, you see jabs, crosses, hooks, uppercuts, etc. just as in mma. they use the same basic striking.
Boxing gloves do limit the kind of strikes you can use. But there are videos on youtube of Choy Lay Fut guys using their fist-seeds with gloves on.

there are venues, but nowhere near as many. if they had similar demand as mma, meaning a similar number of competitors, you would see more venues.
Not everyone who attends MA schools are fighters. But there are plenty of competitions that TCMA engage in to deserve recognition.

not necessarily. they have to condition the hands as well.
Why not use another bag for that?

they have fought muay thai for ages- the soldiers did it for various reasons - but it wasn't officially a sport until 1920. and that is exactly what I mean by "too deadly" - what it was designed for eventually became a scapegoat for some people.
Although it becomes a scapegoat for some people, doing the opposite, never recognizing a style for what it is, leads to not being able to learn it correctly.

notice there was never really any tma vs grappling or mma talk until rorion started using the statistic that 80 percent of fights go to the ground. it seems tma took offense, and that is when it got started, or at least became noticeable.
I think it's difficult to say. I think the videos of so-called TMA guys losing to MMA and BJJ guys stirred up a lot of bickering.

[hskwarrior]

i believe if the down fall to martial arts is the gun, then martial artists will also pick up a gun.

two things i find hilarious in people. one, when someone says "you can't stop a 9 millimeter" then i start to pat them down. they look at me strange and ask "WTF are you doing?"

That's when i say the them...." i'm looking for your gun!" response...." oh its at home." my response........."well i got my gung fu right now!, should i wait for while you go home and get it?"

the second is the KUNG FU FIGHTER!!!!!!.......to me that's the most funniest thing i've ever seen. this type of guy becomes the gung fu in every esoteric way imaginable. from the way he walks, to the way he stares at you through slitted eyes (even tho he's white) to the way he speaks...." don't stare at the fingah.....or you will miss awl da heavenly glowee".

see, i wish people would understand gung fu is the tool, you are not. make gung fu a part of you, and not the other way around.

forms are great. but can you ever get off a set of combo's that you've learned from the form? the combo's in the form are for very specific preset moves. the problem with tcma (usually american) is that they believe the esoterics and think that somehow mystically a person will throw those exact same combo's you've just spent 15 years of your life working on.

one thing i've learned from the latosa branch of escrima is that a martial artist isn't really a martial artist when things are just being given to him. the real skill would be as such......." i don't care what you throw.....a kick.....a punch......it doesn't matter. i will react accordingly........not too many martial artists train like this. well, maybe mma........at least not too many tcma.

see, forms were always out in front for gung fu. we did forms so much where was the fighting? now that forms are becoming de-emphasized to deal with the new direction martial arts is taking, doesn't mean the end of tcma. if you don't adjust to the times and evolve, then what ever style you practice will eventually become obsolete.

tcam need to take heed from mma, muay thai, jujitsu because honestly, in the ring they are whooping our asses. but that doesn't mean we can't hang with them, we just don't train like them. so to end this problem.....start training like them but stay traditional.

and lastly, old chinese from china were good because there was no t.v. or night clubs or anything to distract them.......in america.........we get distracted. easily too.

[The Xia]

I think the "KUNG FU FIGHTER" is a product of a kind of marketing. TCMA isn't alone in having products of this kind of marketing. There are people in the TJMA world like that too (except for them, instead of Shaolin Monks and Bruce Lee, it’s Samurai, Ninja, and Mr. Miyagi). The problem with these people is that as long as they exist, there will be schools to cater to them. That and the general public gets its idea of what traditional martial arts are about from them. Therefore, more and more of them pop up and more and more schools open their doors for them. The quality of martial arts thus lowers.
The truth is that TCMA works. It always has. But it's up to the practitioner to make it work. One problem for modern martial artists is that there is a lot of false information out there. But once you know what you want and how to get it, you’re ahead of a lot of people.
Sparring and more "freestyle" drills teach the practitioner to react to whatever is thrown at him.

[SevenStar]

The truth is that TCMA works. It always has. But it's up to the practitioner to make it work.

I disagree. it's coaching and training methods.

[The Xia]

I disagree. it's coaching and training methods.
I don't think you do. :D
First, "coaching". That's finding a good sifu.
Second, "training methods". That's doing what is nessesary to learn the art.
It's up to the practitioner to do all that.

[The Xia]

I think the main reason people aren't being taught to use the moves in their forms correctly is that teachers are afraid of getting sued if a student gets hurt.
I don’t think that’s the main reason. After all, there are waivers.
I think the main reasons why many students aren't taught applications are
1) The teacher doesn't know them.
2) The teacher is out to make money by tailoring his school to "forms collectors".
3) The teacher has the old-school mindset that demands the student show initiative before he gets the whole package.

[Eddie]

I disagree. it's coaching and training methods.

you can have a good coach but still be a crap fighter. Lets asume two fighters have the same coach (a good one). The one works hard at his skill and the orher spend all his time on the internet talking about having a good coach.....

[nospam]

..Therefore, more and more of <unrealistic and crappy practitioners are opening schools> pop up and more and more schools open their doors for them. The quality of martial arts thus lowers. The truth is that TCMA works. It always has. But it's up to the practitioner to make it work. One problem for modern martial artists is that there is a lot of false information out there. But once you know what you want and how to get it, you’re ahead of a lot of people.

Sparring and more "freestyle" drills teach the practitioner to react to whatever is thrown at him.

I agree with the first part and caution the last part. Freestyle practise and sparring training is a necessity but only when the student shows skill of the basics of their level. If they do not have good command of basic techniques, whether from basic drills and/or forms, the student will most likely engrain bad patterning. They need to apply to the task style of whatever MA they are learning. We get style from basic techniques and our patterns or forms.

This is one reason so many supposed TCMAs look like kick boxing. I am not a proponent for bouncing when it comes to any TCMA, as I feel bouncing is a waste or misdirection of one's energy. Training, especially sparring requires concentration: concentration in applying one's style to the task at hand. This NEEDS to be 'coached' or supervised by a teacher or senior student/assistant instructor. For those who may disagree, rarely will you see a western boxer spar without a coach present. Why? Because the coach is supervising the movement, technique, and tempo of that individual boxer. Freestyle drills or (especially) sparring NEEDS to be done under the trained eye of one's teacher as far as I am concerned, as this is when bad habits sneak into one's execution.

nospam
:cool:

[Eddie]

notice there was never really any tma vs grappling or mma talk until rorion started using the statistic that 80 percent of fights go to the ground. it seems tma took offense, and that is when it got started, or at least became noticeable.

I think its funny how we constantly have to defend our choices about practicing TCMA to MMA players. I also think its funny that Sevenstar, someone with no interest in TCMA, still acts as a moderator on a forum dedicated to TCMA. If you are so against Traditional Martial Arts, why do you still bother to hang around this part of the woods? It kind of reminds me of how Non Christians always seem so concerned about how naive Christians are, and how they dont know what they believe etc.... Seriously, does it make any difference to you whether we all convert to MMAism or just try work with what we have?
Just a thought...
:eek:

[hskwarrior]

ABOUT 7STAR........I THINK HIS HEART IS IN THE RIGHT PLACE........POSSIBLY FEELING LET DOWN BY HIS EXPERIENCE IN TCMA. HE "IS" AMONGST THAT CROWD OF PEOPLE OF LOOK FOR SOMETHING THATS PROVEN TO WORK OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

PEOPLE ARE FORGETTING THAT ITS THE INDIVIDUAL WHO MAKES MMA WORK FOR THEM MUCH THE SAME IS SAID FOR TCMA OR ANY MA.

FOR GENERATIONS KUNG FU HAS BEEN ABOUT FORMS. HOW MANY? WHICH ONES? TRADITIONAL OR MODERN......BLAH BLAH BLAH:eek: .......WHAT IT TRULY COMES DOWN TO IS TWO THINGS...........WHERE ARE YOU AT AT THIS POINT OF YOUR LIFE (MA-WISE) AND IF YOU HAVE A (COACH, SIFU, INSTRUCTOR, MASTER) WHO KNOWS WHAT HE'S DOING AND HOW TO PROPERLY TRANSMIT WHAT HE KNOWS.

MY ORIGINAL CONCERN STEMMED FROM THE FACT THAT ONLY A VERY FEW PEOPLE HAVE HAD ENOUGH FORESIGHT TO DE-EMPHASIZE TRADITIONAL FORMS AND FOCUS ON REALISTICALLY OR FOR SPORT FIGHTING USE THEIR MARTIAL ARTS. TYPICALLY THIS IS DONE BY DISSECTING YOUR SYSTEMS MATERIAL.....THROWING OUT WHAT IS JUST TOOOOOOO BULL**** TO KEEP, AND ENHANCING WHAT DOES IN FACT WORK.

TCMA SCHOOLS FOR FEAR OF BEING SUED HAS HAD TO DUMMY-DOWN THE SYSTEM. UNDER SIFU SALVATERA WE HAD DISCUSSED MANY TIMES WHAT IS ALLOWABLE BY LAW TO USE IN A STREET FIGHT, AND HOW IT CAN COME BACK ON HIM. AFTER THAT POINT I RECOGNIZED A NOTICEABLE CHANGE IN HIS TEACHING. IT DID GIVE ME THAT SINKING FEELING, BUT THAT WAS SHORT LIVED BECAUSE I ABSORBED THE YOUNGER VERSION OF HIM WHEN I WAS IN MY TEENS. THIS IS THE REASON WHY MORE TCMA SCHOOLS HAVE LOST THAT "FLARE" THEY ONCE HAD CAUSE OUR SIFU'S COME FROM A DIFFERENT POINT IN OUR WORLDS LIFE THAN WE DO.

NOW EVERYTHING IS "SUE, SUE SUE" AND I DON'T EVEN KNOW THAT BIATCH!:D


BUT, I PERSONALLY FEEL THAT IF TCMA WOULD PLACE MORE EMPHASIS ON GETTING THEIR STUDENTS THE MOST REALISTIC TRAINING IS BY TRAINING THEIR STUDENTS (TRADITIONALLY) LIKE MMA PEOPLE, TCMA AND ALL THAT COMES WITH IT WOULD AGAIN GET ITS "PROPS" (OR FOR THOSE WHITEY'S THAT DON'T UNDERSTAND EBONICS) RESPECT FOR BEING GOOD FIGHTERS.

:eek: COME ON! IMAGINE WHAT OUR GUNG FU WORLD WOULD BE LIKE IF WE CUT OUT THE BULLSHEET AND FILLED IT WITH SOME GOOD SHEET. SPEAKING ABOUT "FORMS" NOW IS LIKE WHAT POINT FIGHTING IS TO MMA. IMO, GUNG FU PEOPLE WOULD ROCK MMA'S WORLD IF WE WERE TO TRAIN LIKE THEM. TYPICALLY "WE" KNOW WHAT WORLKS FOR US......THEY DON'T. IMO, IF WE TRAINED MORE LIKE THEM.......IT WOULD BE GUNG FU PEOPLE GETTING ALL THE FAME.

WHY DO I SAY SO? BECAUSE TCMA HAS FAR MORE STRIKES, DEFENSE AND OFFENSE RELATED MATERIAL. WHAT I'VE NOTICED IS THAT THERE ARE A FEW GREAT STRIKERS IN MMA, AND THE ONES THAT ARE HAVE A STRONG MA BACKGROUND, NOT JUST WRESTLING.

WITH SOME OF THE HAYMAKERS I'VE SEEN THROWN IN MMA FIGHTS.......IMAGINE MY CLF PEOPLE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN WHEN WE PLANT ONE OF OUR TRIED AND TESTED SOW CHOY'S ON THEM? WE HAVE ELBOWS LIKE THEM, WE HAVE KNEE STRIKES LIKE THEM, WE HAVE TAKE DOWNS LIKE THEM, SEE WHAT I MEAN?

IF WE WERE TO SWITCH THE GEARS A LITTLE AND BE OPEN MINDED ENOUGH TO SEE THAT WE CAN DO WHATEVER THEY DO, WE WOULDN'T BE VIEWED AS OBSOLETE, WEAK, FAKE............

THE REASON WHY WE'RE NOT AS GOOD AS MMA RIGHT NOW.......IT'S CAUSE WE DON'T TRAIN LIKE THEM. ONCE AGAIN, IMAGINE IF WE BEGAN SERIOUSLY TRAINING LIKE THEM (BUT STAYING TRADITIONAL) DO WHAT THEY DO, THEN ADD IN OUR OWN INGREDIENTS TO THE POT..............OH,,,,,,EXPLOSIVE!!!!!

WHEN CLF CAN GO IN AND JUST DOMINATE "EVERY" VENUE LEADING UP TO MMA, WE WOULD BE READY TO HIT THAT CIRCUIT WITH THE KNOWLEDGE THAT OUR FIGHTERS "ARE" READY.

[Fu-Pow]

I also think its funny that Sevenstar, someone with no interest in TCMA, still acts as a moderator on a forum dedicated to TCMA.

That's an excellent point. Why is he still the mod for the Southern forum? Someone should start an email campaign to have him overthrown....coup de tat!!!!:D

[SevenStar]

I don't think you do. :D
First, "coaching". That's finding a good sifu.
Second, "training methods". That's doing what is nessesary to learn the art.
It's up to the practitioner to do all that.

good training methods should be part of the style. it shouldn't be solely up to the practitioner. we train our guys in such a way that includes these things. it ensures integrity of the style. it is no secret that most students will not train on their own outside of class, so by leaving it up to them, you are doing them a disservice, imo.

not only that, but in context of fight training, that is not something you want to do alone. that is why fighters have trainers.

[SevenStar]

you can have a good coach but still be a crap fighter. Lets asume two fighters have the same coach (a good one). The one works hard at his skill and the orher spend all his time on the internet talking about having a good coach.....

no doubt, but that's not what I am getting at. how fighters train for their fights with no coach? how many taught themselves how to fight? fight training is not a solo venture. I know you know that.

[lkfmdc]

More good fighters come from good coaches then say

Good fighters who come from bad or non existant coaches

too many TMA places have no concept of coaching....

[SevenStar]

I think its funny how we constantly have to defend our choices about practicing TCMA to MMA players. I also think its funny that Sevenstar, someone with no interest in TCMA, still acts as a moderator on a forum dedicated to TCMA. If you are so against Traditional Martial Arts, why do you still bother to hang around this part of the woods? It kind of reminds me of how Non Christians always seem so concerned about how naive Christians are, and how they dont know what they believe etc.... Seriously, does it make any difference to you whether we all convert to MMAism or just try work with what we have?
Just a thought...
:eek:

I've said this several times, but one more can't hurt. I was training cma when first came here and when I first started modding. I like tma, but disagree with all of the bs that I see in it. hell, I have trained in junfan, judo, tang soo do, kali,karate and longfist in the 24 years or so that I have been training, so I obviously don't dislike tma. lkfmdc, hskwarrior and several others echo that same sentiment, but since they currently train cma, they don't catch flak when they say it. oh well.

to be honest, I don't give a taiji hippy's arse about whether or not you guys convert, or if you even start training more realistically within your chosen style (for those that don't), because we aren't training partners. however, this several is a discussion forum, and as long as it is such I will voice my opinions.

[SevenStar]

That's an excellent point. Why is he still the mod for the Southern forum? Someone should start an email campaign to have him overthrown....coup de tat!!!!:D

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! I am here now and you suckas can't change it. being honest again, I didn't want to mod this forum anyway - I wanted the jkd forum. at the time though, there was nobody posting there and a lot of trolling here, so gene sent me here, in addition to the main forum. doesn't matter. a soldier doesn't complain about where he is sent to battle, he just tackles the task. in the meantime, you whiners will get over it. :p

[lkfmdc]

With evil posters like me on here, they need a moderator with street credibility, that's why Seven Star isn't going anywhere

[mantis108]

Sevenstar does an excellent job IMHO. *two thumbs way up*

Besides 7 is a luck number so... :D

Mantis108

[Water Dragon]

What I've found from doing both traditional inner door CMA and competition arts is this. CMA concepts, base methodoligies, movement patterns work, but the way they are taught is inefficient. Most CMA tend to build a solid 'Kung Fu' body. While you're doing that, the competition guys are out there in the mix usually within 2 weeks. They are given things that would correspond to stance and form work and equipment training, but it's slowly introduced while the main focus is on winning the competition or 'fight'.

A lot, not all, of CMA guys really try to cling to methodoligies are 100's of years old. The training, be it stance work, form work, power drills, etc. are all designed to produce a result. What if squats produce the desired results of training horse quicker and more efficiently? All you end up with is a stronger horse in the end, and isn't that the point?

CMA, for the majority, needs to take off the blinders, take advantage of all the information out there, and create the best form of their art possible. I have started seeing this more often, but it's still a real small majority of CMA guys who are doing something like this.

[SevenStar]

I agree with the first part and caution the last part. Freestyle practise and sparring training is a necessity but only when the student shows skill of the basics of their level. If they do not have good command of basic techniques, whether from basic drills and/or forms, the student will most likely engrain bad patterning. They need to apply to the task style of whatever MA they are learning. We get style from basic techniques and our patterns or forms.

bjj guys do it - it teaches you early on how to use your natural attributes to survive, as that is all you have. as you learn, you add techniques into your game. I was taught judo in the same manner. striking systems tend not to work this way.


This is one reason so many supposed TCMAs look like kick boxing.

it looks like basic kicking and punching, not kickboxing.


I am not a proponent for bouncing when it comes to any TCMA, as I feel bouncing is a waste or misdirection of one's energy.

boxing and muay thai do not teach it either.


Training, especially sparring requires concentration: concentration in applying one's style to the task at hand. This NEEDS to be 'coached' or supervised by a teacher or senior student/assistant instructor. For those who may disagree, rarely will you see a western boxer spar without a coach present. Why? Because the coach is supervising the movement, technique, and tempo of that individual boxer. Freestyle drills or (especially) sparring NEEDS to be done under the trained eye of one's teacher as far as I am concerned, as this is when bad habits sneak into one's execution.


very true.

[bredmond812]

I cant believe i just read this whole thread, but i did. Just a few thoughts:

DEFINITIONS...how do we define MMA? Is it just the mixing of martial arts? Or do we mean those sports venues like UFC, Pride, etc.? I ask becasue if it is the former, then martial arts have been mixed for almost as long as they have existed.

According to most accounts, Shaolin just started out with the 18 Buddha hands, then it expanded as it incorporated other techniques. Since CLF seems to be popular here, I will use it as an example. As i understand it, CLF is a mixed martial art. From what i have seen and heard, the founder had three different teachers, and combined them together to form his own system.

Mixing is necessary for evolution.

However, FWIW here and most places i go, MMA seems to be more of a venue than a system. Thats ok too.

B Redmond

[hskwarrior]

The Point Thats Being Missed Is That Tcma Don't Typically Train Like Mixed Art Guys. Yeah Clf Was Based On Different Stuff From Different Systems. But As Newer Generations Came The Old Tough Days Where They Killed And Got Away With It Is Long Gone.

Tcma People Get Caught Up In The System, Believing The Systme Is Going To Win The Fight. Fighters Know They Are Going To Win The Fight, Not The System. Who Uses The System? The Fighter, Not Vice Versa.

People Are Going To Mma Now Cause What They're Doing Is Effective, Especially In Ring. What I Was Trying To Say Is That If Tcma People Trained To Fight Similar To Mma Fighters Today, People Would Be More Interested In Tcma. Mma Is Always Clowning About How We Do Forms Like Little Dances And Sht. And We Can't Get Mad. Cuz Unless You Are Doing Equal Training To Mma, We Got Nothing To ***** About.

I Am Evolving What I Teach To Hopefully Get Into Mma Matches. But If That Falls Through, I Still Teach For The Streets.

[SevenStar]

mma = striking and ground grappling. period. it could be bjj and muay thai or longfist and greco.

[hskwarrior]

Clf And Bjj?

[bredmond812]

when you say that TMA is not being trained like MMA, do you mean that TMA guys are not as intense, or that they dont have the same methods of practicing, or....what? Is it that TMA guys dont do as much sparring as MMA guys? They dont strike targets?

At my old Bak Mei/Long Ying school, which like you is in San Francisco, we trained traditional forms, along with ying gong (hard conditioning) using sandbags, heavy bag work, as well as weight training, wooden dummy, combonation training, skill training (example = conditioning for the phoenix eye fist), footwork training. My Sifu said that in the past, they would use anything they could to build up muscles--rocks, whatever. That is about how he said it too. He continued by saying that now that we have weight training, we use it instead of rocks. I guess the point is that he combines the traditional with modern methods to try to improve on what is already effective. Does this approach what you mean by TMA not training like MMA?

B Redmond

[SevenStar]

The Point Thats Being Missed Is That Tcma Don't Typically Train Like Mixed Art Guys. Yeah Clf Was Based On Different Stuff From Different Systems. But As Newer Generations Came The Old Tough Days Where They Killed And Got Away With It Is Long Gone.

Tcma People Get Caught Up In The System, Believing The Systme Is Going To Win The Fight. Fighters Know They Are Going To Win The Fight, Not The System. Who Uses The System? The Fighter, Not Vice Versa.

People Are Going To Mma Now Cause What They're Doing Is Effective, Especially In Ring. What I Was Trying To Say Is That If Tcma People Trained To Fight Similar To Mma Fighters Today, People Would Be More Interested In Tcma. Mma Is Always Clowning About How We Do Forms Like Little Dances And Sht. And We Can't Get Mad. Cuz Unless You Are Doing Equal Training To Mma, We Got Nothing To ***** About.

I Am Evolving What I Teach To Hopefully Get Into Mma Matches. But If That Falls Through, I Still Teach For The Streets.

it can happen. if there were a few guys who did well in the bigger name venues using san shou and bjj, eyes would open.

[bredmond812]

mma = striking and ground grappling. period. it could be bjj and muay thai or longfist and greco.

That is a pretty firm definition of MMA, especially since greco has standing grappeling as well. In fact, when i took greco, i dont see anything from the ground work that would work in a combat situation on the ground. It was mostly about tilting the guy's back to the mat to score points.

B Red

[hskwarrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA6s27K0SMI

[bredmond812]

Personally, i would love to see the big arm swings of CLF that i have seen on youtube. I think they would do well at UFC/Pride, etc. an example comes in this video I found on youtube during the challenge match at the end:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV3rrxyoHhk

B Redmond

[bredmond812]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA6s27K0SMI

I like that instructors power, but im not sure what to make of it as it pertains to the discussion. And also, i have never had one class in CLF, but i dont see a lot of particular CLF technique there. nice video though, it shows that they are systematically developing the skills and conditioning that they will need in the ring, or even in combat situations for that matter.

B Red

[SevenStar]

when you say that TMA is not being trained like MMA, do you mean that TMA guys are not as intense, or that they dont have the same methods of practicing, or....what? Is it that TMA guys dont do as much sparring as MMA guys? They dont strike targets?

At my old Bak Mei/Long Ying school, which like you is in San Francisco, we trained traditional forms, along with ying gong (hard conditioning) using sandbags, heavy bag work, as well as weight training, wooden dummy, combonation training, skill training (example = conditioning for the phoenix eye fist), footwork training. My Sifu said that in the past, they would use anything they could to build up muscles--rocks, whatever. That is about how he said it too. He continued by saying that now that we have weight training, we use it instead of rocks. I guess the point is that he combines the traditional with modern methods to try to improve on what is already effective. Does this approach what you mean by TMA not training like MMA?

B Redmond

no. high intensity calisthenics for warm up, including exercises that build kinesthetic, or "body" awareness.

active drilling, using focus mitts, then without mitts, akin to three step sparring.

free sparring.

heavybag work.

fight specific drills, like takedown defense, ground and pound drills, etc.

I could gointo more detail, but I am on my smartphone, not my pc, and I hate typing this much on this small keyboard. the format of tma classes I have experienced is not really conducive to fight training, even though the school may include some of the elements mentioned.

[SevenStar]

That is a pretty firm definition of MMA, especially since greco has standing grappeling as well. In fact, when i took greco, i dont see anything from the ground work that would work in a combat situation on the ground. It was mostly about tilting the guy's back to the mat to score points.

B Red

sure it does. groundwork is about positional dominance...you may not crucifix or grapevine someone in a streetfight, but think about positioning and how it relates to a streetfight.

[pablitop]

Ramon Dekkers is a dutch Muay Thai Champ. The first one to receive the title of "Best Fighter of the Year" in Thailand.
He was giving a seminar in Chile in a Choy Lee Fut school. That´s why you don´t see any CLF techniques in there.

Greetings from Argentina

Pablo

[Sal Canzonieri]

If you permit me as an old-timer to talk from my experience of using martial arts to defend myself successfully, not ment as a braggart or know-it-all:

In my 32 years doing traditional CMA and the boxes and boxes of research material I have read and watched, I have learned:

- Traditional Chinese Martial arts, ALL of them, are based on being AMBUSHED.
You are taught via forms and drills to react correctly with your body and mind working together to evade the ambush, redirect the incoming attack, and then beat the opponent before his attack is finished (via whatever was needed to do at the time). Traditional CMA is all about sudden self defense, you are matador against the raging bull, you need skills, internal and external conditioning, and presence of mind to stay calm. Each CMA teaches the same thing, but has a different strategy of doing it. Also, traditional CMA works to instill into the skills just like you learn to drive a car, so the movements become second nature and can be done without thinking, exactly like driving a car is done. You think and act at the same time, you have to, when driving, you are one with the car and have to -think and act into order to avoid accidents and to maneuver best on the road and so on. hence, traditional CMA should work regardless of your sex, age, build, etc.

Self Defense is all about STOPPING A FIGHT from developing from the initial attack, you have to prevent their attack from becoming a fight, you have to evade and overtake the attacking movements so that there is no trading of strikes done.

- This is entirely not like Fighting, which is two people standing off against each other and one has to start first. Fighting is two people trading strikes, whether it is on the street or in the ring. Fighting is not sudden self defense, and who ever is the luckiest wins (the one who is smarter, more experienced, more learned, faster, stronger, younger, etc etc etc). You cannot use what works in an ambush necessarily in a Fight. You need to be trained like a sports person or better yet like a gladiator, which is a sport person anyways though deadly. There is either street fighting or sports fighting in a ring, regardless it is a face off between opponents. Unless fully trained, hardly anyone can be a Fighter, unlike TCMA, where anyone can learn to do self defense.

Even the stuff done on the lei tai platforms of old is not the same stuff that the same person would do in a self defense sudden ambush situation. In a fight, both people can see that the other is about to strike. Training to fight is not the same as training for self defense.

- Sparring's negative side is that it can teach you bad habits, stuff that messes you up on the street or in the ring, because sparring is neither self defense nor true fighting. Sparring teaches you to hold back, which is not good for either fighting nor self defense. But, alas, some kind of physical contact is needed for practicing.

You can argue til you are blue in the face, but logic says that Fighting and Self Defense are two entirely different situations, regardless if the movements overlap, and both call for different conditioning and different skills.

In self defense, someone unexpectantly tries to attack you and you take them down with natural movements that arise from your reaction.

In fighting, someone has to first face off with you, regardless if it is an altercation on the street or a sport even in the ring, and one or the other must first start to strike.

Because in pre-modern times bodyguards, caravan guards, soldiers, police officers, platform fighters, etc., practiced martial arts, people became confused and didn't understand that these people used Fighting, not self defense, tactics and techniques. Sometimes they used self defense, if ambushed, most of the time they they faced off with their opponents. Don't say they are both the same thing, they are not. There might be overlapping movements, but they have different purposes and have different stimulus that initiates one or the other to happen.

The average person might need to use self defense, but fighting is something mostly young guys do (they start fights in a bar or on the street and it is kill or be killed / or they get into a ring and fight for points or knockouts or takedowns)

AND, having said all that:

- Many people today, including many teachers, have NO IDEA what the difference is between fighting and self defense and thus have no idea what they are doing because they mix the two concepts together and their training makes no sense.
This is the fundamental reason that people learn garbage that doesn't work neither for self defense nor fighting.

- Thus, it makes no sense to compare REAL TCMA with REAL MMA. If learned correctly, one is for sudden self defense and the other is for sports like fighting in a face off. Both can happen regardless of the environment.
You can't say one is better or worse than the other because what you do in each is for a different purpose.

- THERE IS A BIG PROBLEM in TCMA today in that not too many people know what forms are really for, how to use movements from a style for real, how to really train correctly, and what correct body mechanics are. Part of this problem is because many teachers lack the understanding of what the purpose of self defense is compared to the purpose of fighting.

- Part of the mix up is because in self defense and in STREET fighting, ALL techniques are allowed as long as you win. Hence there is overlap.
But a fighter must train differently, especially since he is physically able to do so, than the average person trains who needs to learn self defense, which TCMA was created for.

- I really think most people today don't know what forms really are and what they are for.

[TenTigers]

I think the biggest problem we are facing here is that we have a very distorted view of what TCMA training actually is.
The emphasis on forms,two-man sets,first then extracting applications, etc is a fairly NEW methodology, and conditioning,hitting the bags, drills, and hands on training and fighting are OLD SKOOL.
If you look at history it becomes more clear.
When there were warring kingdoms fighting on the battlefield, do you suppose they trained the soldiers in forms first, or drills, drills, drills, and fighting?
-kinda a no-brainer, right?
Fast forward through time a bit-Now they are fighting trying to overthrow the Ching,restore the Ming-do you train your revolutionaries in forms, or drills, drills, drills, and fighting?-duh.
Stay with me-Fast forward the Wayback Machine,Sherman...ok, so now we're fighting in the streets-school, versus school-forms first? or drills, drills, drills,etc?
Ok, now we are about four generations or so back....schools opening up, doing demos in the village square, trying to garner students...so we demo, what? drills? hitting bags? conditioning?...or that waayyy cool Tiger Crane set, Eight Drunken Immortals, Bak Mo Kuen,etc..? Two man sets, weapon sets with flowers, twirling monk spades, spear vs broadsword...etc Get it?
Then, when they come into the schools,what do we do? Beat the crap out of them with harsh training? What, and have them go to the CLF school on the other side of the village? No way! "C'mere, son. I'm gonna teach you the Flying Dragon (place weapon of your choice here) form!
Two man sets don't really teach the real skills-especially the weapon sets-remember,"When using the gwun, don't expect two sounds!"
Forms were taught only AFTER skills were learned, more like a certificate. And not everyone learned forms. Sometimes they were taught only to lineage bearors to carry on the system. Totally different emphasis than we have today.

Let's also address the reason many Kung-Fu guys fight like kickboxers.
IT'S NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE LIMITED IN WHAT THEY CAN USE, and it is not because they revert to basics.
The reality is, and anyone who has been in the tournament scene in the eighties and up will back me up, people fought in o0pen tournaments using their rules, because that's all there was. These people then became "Sifus"-and taught their students what they knew-what they used, what they did, what worked for them.
Point fighters teaching Kung-Fu. Sure, there are some tough sumbiches doing this type of fighting,hitting hard,good ring sense, and can bang with the best of them, but it ain't Kung-Fu. And if you listen to their stories, they all say the same thing-the rules don't let us use our Kung-Fu, so we strip it down to what we can use, etc.. Bullsh!t. There ain't a helluva lot of difference between a ridgehand and sow or cup.(when thrown with control) Been,gwa,lien wan kuen,etc all fine. Just do it.

Seven Star says,
"active drilling, using focus mitts, then without mitts, akin to three step sparring.
free sparring.
heavybag work.
fight specific drills, like takedown defense, ground and pound drills, etc. "
-all TCMA old skool in my book.
Did'ja ever notice Lam Sai-Wing's stances aren't so big and wide as all the Hung-Ga schools do it nowadays?Only a few generations have passed. Also a product of TCMA for demos' sake, rather than fighting, but I will save that rant for another day.

[bredmond812]

NICE.

I had never made that connnection between being ambushed and fighting. It has been right in front of me this whole time, and I always missed it.

B Redmond

[TenTigers]

ok, more ranting...I wanna add to this, one other thing. This situation of forms collecting. Somewhere, and I think the Shaw Bros movies are partly to blame, we got it in our heads that if we learn this new set,(whatever it is) that by learning it, we absorb the skills to fight, just as in the movies, the young apprentice learns the secret form and then avenges his Sifu, etc. We have become forms collectors. My SPM Sifu in his 40 yrs experience, knows about 3-4 forms and a few weapons. Wing Chun guys know about the same.
It ain't in the forms, it's in the training.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Every old timer I know that is over 70 years old says that they drilled all the moves in a form, one by one, until they got it completely ingrained.
It took about a year to complete one form.

Most styles have about 3-10 forms.

It's all the post 1930's schools, like Jing Wu, Nanjing, Central Kousho, etc etc that brought tons of martial artists together for teaching that started the forms collecting.

In pre-1920s times, most great masters learned the basics of tong bei, takedowns and throws, and some forms from their chosen style, some weapons, and tons of drills that taught them the strategy and tactics of their style.

But, it was understood that forms were a shorthand method of remembering the drills they were taught.

people did all the moves in a form on the right and left sides, and from the end to the beginning backwards. And they were able to shuffle the moves in a form.
IN other words they were intimate with all the moves in a form because they were drilled into them to become second nature.

For example, once you make riding a bike second nature, you start to be a daredevil with it, popping wheelies, doing jumps, spins, etc, you play with what you can do now

Simple but people had time to practice 8 hours a day until drills and the following forms became intimate knowledge.

Choy Li Fut, for example, has lots of forms about 100, but once the person really mastered the basic fundamentals of CLF, he could easily learn a lot of forms because they were variations of the "alphabet" they already knew by then.

[The Xia]

good training methods should be part of the style. it shouldn't be solely up to the practitioner. we train our guys in such a way that includes these things. it ensures integrity of the style. it is no secret that most students will not train on their own outside of class, so by leaving it up to them, you are doing them a disservice, imo.
It's still up to the practitioner to do the style along with its good training methods. If he doesn't show up for class, that's his doing.

[The Xia]

mma = striking and ground grappling. period. it could be bjj and muay thai or longfist and greco.
I disagree. I see MMA as something that started out as a venue and evolved into a style of its own. There are exceptions to the rule, but MMA fighters generally draws from BJJ, Judo, Boxing, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, and Wrestling (Greco-Roman and other forms). Therefore, I see the style of MMA as an amalgam of different parts (and sometimes the whole, especially when pertaining to BJJ or Wrestling) of those arts.

[The Xia]

In pre-1920s times, most great masters learned the basics of tong bei, takedowns and throws, and some forms from their chosen style, some weapons, and tons of drills that taught them the strategy and tactics of their style.
Where'd you get the "tong bei" part from? That may be true of great masters from a certain location. But I doubt that characterization would describe most pre-1920s Hakka stylists, for example.

[Eddie]

Im not against sevenstar as a mod, it just seemed a little odd to have a MMA guy modding a TCMA forum. Im not going to try and topple any one, I don’t really have issues with people. Im actually not that type of guy.

I’m fully aware of what MMA entails, and I agree with allot of the strategy and philosophy behind it. I also see the validity and value of most TMA styles (when trained correctly with the right intend).

Do you guys consider San Shou / Da as traditional Chinese Martial Arts?
(Coach Ross don’t need to answer this one)

Anyhow, I also think its about the way you train. I see what 7star is saying too. If you don’t train with fighting in mind, you wont fight. If you don’t do conditioning, you wont fight. If you think forms will make you a good fighter, youre in for a big surprise.

I still love TCMA tho. I still love forms, even if it is just for show. I still love the whole cultural thing behind CMA. In the end, its about a whole package deal for me.

Different strokes....

[SevenStar]

I disagree. I see MMA as something that started out as a venue and evolved into a style of its own. There are exceptions to the rule, but MMA fighters generally draws from BJJ, Judo, Boxing, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, and Wrestling (Greco-Roman and other forms). Therefore, I see the style of MMA as an amalgam of different parts (and sometimes the whole, especially when pertaining to BJJ or Wrestling) of those arts.

it is still a venue. when it first started, it wasn't called mma
- it wasn't mixed. pure bjj guys, pure tma, etc. it started being called mma after people started crosstraining striking and grappling.

[SevenStar]

It's still up to the practitioner to do the style along with its good training methods. If he doesn't show up for class, that's his doing.

that's trivial. quite obviously I am talking about students who show up.

[Fu-Pow]

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! I am here now and you suckas can't change it. being honest again, I didn't want to mod this forum anyway - I wanted the jkd forum. at the time though, there was nobody posting there and a lot of trolling here, so gene sent me here, in addition to the main forum. doesn't matter. a soldier doesn't complain about where he is sent to battle, he just tackles the task. in the meantime, you whiners will get over it. :p

Down with the dictator, down with the dictator.....the villagers are coming for you Sevenstar....pitchforks and torches in hand!!!! Hahahahaha!:D

[hskwarrior]

Sevenstar,

Can't You Put Yourself On His Ignorelist So He'd Stop Harrassing You?

[Sal Canzonieri]

oh, and military based martial arts have their own unique set of criteria as well.

How to defend yourself without killing your troop mates next to you!

[The Xia]

it is still a venue. when it first started, it wasn't called mma
- it wasn't mixed. pure bjj guys, pure tma, etc. it started being called mma after people started crosstraining striking and grappling.
It is still a venue. But it has become a style as well.

that's trivial. quite obviously I am talking about students who show up.
But even in students that show up to classes (and have good teachers), some show up infrequently and others show up often. Some train hard and others slack off. Some practice at home and others don't. Some are better suited for certain styles then others. Some are better suited for martial arts in general then others. Ultimately, success always boils down to the student.

[The Xia]

You may have missed this.

Where'd you get the "tong bei" part from? That may be true of great masters from a certain location. But I doubt that characterization would describe most pre-1920s Hakka stylists, for example.

[The Xia]

They allow you to work techniques solo. Boxers work set combos and I don't see them catching flack for it. That's because they also work those set combos on bags, pads, and with partners. Therefore, they learn to apply the combos. Properly taught Kung Fu drills the techniques that are found in the forms with partners. The techniques can also be drilled other ways (like pads, etc).
Another aspect of forms that many people seem to not know about or are forgetting is the conditioning they provide. Besides the obvious cardio and strength benefits, proper body mechanics are trained through forms. Some styles have forms that emphasize and train the internal aspects of their respective systems. Two examples are Hung Gar's Tid Sin Kuen and Southern Mantis' Sam Bo Jin. So forms aren't useless.

[hskwarrior]

absolutely xia,

i have a new student and instead of teaching him forms first, or go through the typicaly in air drilling, i'm making him apply the basic techniques with a partner so he gets the hang of it. its not how we usually approach things, but im finding out that it's far better for the student to understand why they are striking like they are.

sometimes i'd stand in front of my student while he's doing a form and have him strike the pads at the same time. gives him a different perspective on why he's doing it.

so no, forms aren't useless. everyone is doing one in one way or another. the problem lies with will others acknowledge this. anything strung together and practiced over and over is a form of something. remember, forms are the blueprint into the system. it shows you angles you haven't thought of and so forth. forms are great for many reasons..........but everyone should should know that they are not the key to making great fighters. its the training and heart of the individual that will get him through.

[hskwarrior]

but then again........it's been proven by real tcma fighters that there's more NOT in the forms than vice versa.

for example......name me one set that teaches you every single way to chop choy?

how many ways have you found to do something that isn't in the form?

but if we never had that form, then we wouldn't be searching for other ways without an example to follow.

[The Xia]

Let's say that in a fight you use a chop choi in a way that's not in any form you know. Although the exact way you used the chop choi isn't in the forms you know, the mechanics of throwing any chop choi are in the forms. Since you effectively used an application for chop choi not seen in the forms you know, it says that you have internalized the Kung Fu enough to do that. It shows you are a martial artist instead of a martial robot. But this doesn't mean that the exact way a technique is done in the forms doesn't work. You use your Kung Fu, weather it's using a technique the exact way it's done in a form or using it another way, to react to the situation at hand.

[The Xia]

Here is a martial robot to the extreme! :p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_vvI26NnwE

[WinterPalm]

IF there is a downfall it is probably of the junk schools and worthless styles and teachers...that is all. Good kung fu, way before I even saw a UFC event, is what my Sifu was teaching. Yes there are low stances, and endless repetitions of techniques in the air and always with an opponent. There is takedown defense, stand-up grappling that leads to the ground, escapes, and counters to everything under the sun...weapon defense of sticks, knives. As well, one learns their froms...I've learned 7 of them in 5.5 years of training. I'd say three of them I practice religiously and the others I rotate in to keep in memory or to work a certain aspect of fighting.

The bulk of practice is techniques, footwork, countless drills and self-defense and sparring.

So I do not see any downfall of traditional kung fu.

[diego]

i believe if the down fall to martial arts is the gun, then martial artists will also pick up a gun.

two things i find hilarious in people. one, when someone says "you can't stop a 9 millimeter" then i start to pat them down. they look at me strange and ask "WTF are you doing?"

That's when i say the them...." i'm looking for your gun!" response...." oh its at home." my response........."well i got my gung fu right now!, should i wait for while you go home and get it?"

the second is the KUNG FU FIGHTER!!!!!!.......to me that's the most funniest thing i've ever seen. this type of guy becomes the gung fu in every esoteric way imaginable. from the way he walks, to the way he stares at you through slitted eyes (even tho he's white) to the way he speaks...." don't stare at the fingah.....or you will miss awl da heavenly glowee".

see, i wish people would understand gung fu is the tool, you are not. make gung fu a part of you, and not the other way around.

forms are great. but can you ever get off a set of combo's that you've learned from the form? the combo's in the form are for very specific preset moves. the problem with tcma (usually american) is that they believe the esoterics and think that somehow mystically a person will throw those exact same combo's you've just spent 15 years of your life working on.

one thing i've learned from the latosa branch of escrima is that a martial artist isn't really a martial artist when things are just being given to him. the real skill would be as such......." i don't care what you throw.....a kick.....a punch......it doesn't matter. i will react accordingly........not too many martial artists train like this. well, maybe mma........at least not too many tcma.

see, forms were always out in front for gung fu. we did forms so much where was the fighting? now that forms are becoming de-emphasized to deal with the new direction martial arts is taking, doesn't mean the end of tcma. if you don't adjust to the times and evolve, then what ever style you practice will eventually become obsolete.

tcam need to take heed from mma, muay thai, jujitsu because honestly, in the ring they are whooping our asses. but that doesn't mean we can't hang with them, we just don't train like them. so to end this problem.....start training like them but stay traditional.

and lastly, old chinese from china were good because there was no t.v. or night clubs or anything to distract them.......in america.........we get distracted. easily too.

Good post

been thinking on these topics for a bit now...one thing that i'm not liking (not crying or anything, but I'm saying) is it's **** near hard to train like the mma students and stay traditional...like boxing is easy...learned the essence during puberty...do some shadowboxing for half hour, hit the bag hour or two, and spar for a good hour...you set...a year of conditioning you ready to compete.

fukn Kung fu you gotta do that and stance training, and more shadowboxing through formwork...then you got hundereds of moves from your forms that you gotta hit on the bag...thais got boxing punches, front and round kick maybe a side kick and some knees and elbows...kungfu you gotta do horse stance, jab-bow stance, cross...and then you gotta do crane stance, overhead block and chop to neck on bag millions of times...so many fucing moves :)

i know i gotta be able to hold my stances for ages for the compressing-relaxing factors, mixed with mental intent...getting serious with my stancework after doing concrete finishing working like an inch from the edge of a 30 story building all scared of heights and shiat...mad appreciating what sun lu tang was saying about put your left shoulder and thigh and foot against a wall and lift your right leg...he all "i can do it cuz my center of gravity is wherever i want it, and ish"

anyway mad ranting worried this computer is gon freeze...i could train four to five hours a day and be good at hop gar kickboxing...just do my basics on the bag and shadow box my combo's etc, spar for an hour and condition the rest, or i could do real kung fu and train 8 hours a day with my forms and stance work and just tai chi'n your moves, isolating all slow and sh*t getting the proper energy currents...i gotta work tho, so that's another 8 hours, plus i like tv and music...it's ill to me

but if you wanna be a traditional martial artist then you gotta be traditional and keep it real..train like your life depends on it, or just go do submission kickboxing and enjoy a beer and a game after...fuqa horse stance etc:cool:

[SevenStar]

It is still a venue. But it has become a style as well.

No, it hasn't. it has become a format, but not a style. If i train bjj and muay thai and my friend trains shotokan and catch, how are we doing the same style? we are not. Ross' san shou guys have a base in lama pai. other guys have a base in clf and others, in mantis. Are they all doing the same style because they all fight in a san shou format? no.


But even in students that show up to classes (and have good teachers), some show up infrequently and others show up often. Some train hard and others slack off. Some practice at home and others don't. Some are better suited for certain styles then others. Some are better suited for martial arts in general then others. Ultimately, success always boils down to the student.

the most dedicated student with the worst training and coaching available will never amount to much, fighting wise. Why not?

[SevenStar]

They allow you to work techniques solo. Boxers work set combos and I don't see them catching flack for it. That's because they also work those set combos on bags, pads, and with partners. Therefore, they learn to apply the combos. Properly taught Kung Fu drills the techniques that are found in the forms with partners. The techniques can also be drilled other ways (like pads, etc).
Another aspect of forms that many people seem to not know about or are forgetting is the conditioning they provide. Besides the obvious cardio and strength benefits, proper body mechanics are trained through forms. Some styles have forms that emphasize and train the internal aspects of their respective systems. Two examples are Hung Gar's Tid Sin Kuen and Southern Mantis' Sam Bo Jin. So forms aren't useless.

1. we don't say forms are useless; we say they are unnecessary.

2. set boxing combos are drills, typically done on pads or a bag, not just in the air, unless you are a beginner. these combos are typically like 7 techniques or less, not long, drawn out sets like traditional styles

3. shadowboxing is not set and thus does not constitute a form.

4. those same benefits you mentioned can also be reaped via shadowboxing and drilling, which is why forms are not necessary.

5. a boxer doing long, set combos would indeed catch flak. there have been threads here about the 17 count drill that adjarn chai uses, and several people downed it.

[hskwarrior]

thanks diego for your response.

what i believe is being traditional is maintaining the tradition as it was taught to you the way it was taught to your teacher, now you to your students.


you can keep traditional that way, but noting is traditional about fighting. in fact, the only traditional thing about fighting is that its unpredictable.

forms don't train us for that unpredictability, unless you mentally alter how its done for you.

as a beginner, you should be spoon fed. as an intermediate you should know how to feed yourself. as advanced, you shoud have feeding yourself mastered.

do you understand?

[SevenStar]

fukn Kung fu you gotta do that and stance training, and more shadowboxing through formwork...then you got hundereds of moves from your forms that you gotta hit on the bag...thais got boxing punches, front and round kick maybe a side kick and some knees and elbows...kungfu you gotta do horse stance, jab-bow stance, cross...and then you gotta do crane stance, overhead block and chop to neck on bag millions of times...so many fucing moves :)

exactly. muay thai actually has a lot of kicks, not just the tiip, roundhouse and back kick. Most places you run across (at least in the us) don't even bother to teach them though, because they are so rarely used. How many of your cma strikes have you actually used fighting and use on a regular basis? most likely, not that many.

[hskwarrior]

n i agree that the last part.

i've said previously, we only use a small percentage of the system.

whts common is the need to perfect blocking, punching, and kicking.

all else are extras.

[The Xia]

No, it hasn't. it has become a format, but not a style. If i train bjj and muay thai and my friend trains shotokan and catch, how are we doing the same style? we are not. Ross' san shou guys have a base in lama pai. other guys have a base in clf and others, in mantis. Are they all doing the same style because they all fight in a san shou format? no.
Other then some exceptions here and there, top MMA guys get their material from BJJ, Judo, Sambo, Wrestling, Boxing, Muai Thai, and Kickboxing. And nowadays, there are MMA schools that teach “MMA”. And whenever I see such a school, the material comes from those styles. Therefore, I call MMA a style as well as a format. As for San Shou, you do have TCMA competing in it but you also have people from Muay Thai and other styles in the mix. And there are fighters who call what they practice “San Shou” and “San Da”. I sometimes see some TCMA translating into it (usually in the the kicking) but more often then not it looks like Kickboxing to me.

the most dedicated student with the worst training and coaching available will never amount to much, fighting wise. Why not?
It’s still him who decided to go to the bad coach with the bad training.

[The Xia]

1. we don't say forms are useless; we say they are unnecessary.
That depends on what your goals are.

2. set boxing combos are drills, typically done on pads or a bag, not just in the air, unless you are a beginner. these combos are typically like 7 techniques or less, not long, drawn out sets like traditional styles

3. shadowboxing is not set and thus does not constitute a form.
Generally, I see shadowboxing being done freestyle. However, I see different set combos thrown in there.

4. those same benefits you mentioned can also be reaped via shadowboxing and drilling, which is why forms are not necessary.
That's simply not true. You won't get the benefits of Tid Sin Kuen, for example, from shadowboxing and drilling.

5. a boxer doing long, set combos would indeed catch flak. there have been threads here about the 17 count drill that adjarn chai uses, and several people downed it.
If it works for him, who cares what some posters on an internet forum say about it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

That depends on what your goals are.

Generally, I see shadowboxing being done freestyle. However, I see different set combos thrown in there.

That's simply not true. You won't get the benefits of Tid Sin Kuen, for example, from shadowboxing and drilling.

If it works for him, who cares what some posters on an internet forum say about it?

I only add that, because it works for Chai, doesn't mean much.
Many elite level athletes sucseed IN SPITE of what they do, NOT because of it.
And the Tid Sin Kuen, like its very basic off-shot, Sanchin is not your typical form.
It address specific attributes in a specific way, its a "freak" in terms of forms.

[diego]

exactly. muay thai actually has a lot of kicks, not just the tiip, roundhouse and back kick. Most places you run across (at least in the us) don't even bother to teach them though, because they are so rarely used. How many of your cma strikes have you actually used fighting and use on a regular basis? most likely, not that many.

nah i know about muay thai kicks with the jump kicks and that...thai's are bhuddist and i'm noticing any art bhuddists touch be mad complex...so i hear muay thai became a sport in 1920, and they use similar punches as western boxers, they just use more compact motions as the stance is more upright...what did they do before they saw white people boxing?...did the thai's adopt say a shaolin type front stance or?.


most my hopgar punches are the same as boxing but we got what some thai's call hidden strikes...like we'll tap the chin with the right and then hammer the groin with the same hand then wipe the face again with a backfist and then follow with the rear...just like you can horizontal elbow in then return it as a backelbow strike and follow with the other arm in a overhead or whatnot...and then a lot of the tactics relys on groin shots to open up for a follow up knockout punch...can't practise groin shots on my peeps nor in ufc so no i haven't used the hidden techniques...thankfully I've only had to box attackers.

[diego]

thanks diego for your response.

what i believe is being traditional is maintaining the tradition as it was taught to you the way it was taught to your teacher, now you to your students.


you can keep traditional that way, but noting is traditional about fighting. in fact, the only traditional thing about fighting is that its unpredictable.

forms don't train us for that unpredictability, unless you mentally alter how its done for you.

as a beginner, you should be spoon fed. as an intermediate you should know how to feed yourself. as advanced, you shoud have feeding yourself mastered.

do you understand?


yeah i know what your saying...i'm just saying your first post got me thinking on things i been thinking on...and i'm saying hop gar is harder to use in a NHB format than what the standard mma's train...you would have to train overtime to use hop gar in a ring in the same time it would take a thai boxer who trains part time...the footwork and punching theory is that complex...wheras boxing is just shift shift jab jab hook hook shift shift....hopgar you playing chess as well as sticking and moving...I'm up for the challenge of making my art effective...it's just I know how underground the style of hop gar i received is, and the guys that know it are doing **** with it so i look at the standard kung fu schools and just think god....80 years of war messed up CMA, why the thai's luck out and keep there tradition:) prolly cuz they bhuddist but i'm saying i walked by a park and these two chinese student were point sparring and the white soccer players were snickering at them talking about "they punch dumb and ****" and i mean yeah they sucked, but i'm like boxing ain't that difficult...so it's like pure ignorance...those soccer guys would have to train harder to do the chinese punch than the white punch but they will be like yeah the white punch rocks...nah you just lazy focker...uno


i'm knowing kids from the 90's are gonna grow up learning their parents kung fu but traing in mma and eventually they gonna wanna test the power in their parents styles so soon you are gonna see more switching up between side stance and front stance, and then the mma are really gonna be that....mad psyched to see where it's all going in 40-60 years

:) no real point just something i like thinking on.1

[Knifefighter]

inothing wrong with mma, nor tcma. as long as you have the right person coaching you..........mma tends to lean more towards sport fighting while tcma still gears itself for reality training,

Most TMA training is pretending to be geared towards reality. In actuality, the TMA guys aren't fighting on the streets in "reality" situations any more than any sport person is... probably less, as a matter of fact.

[Knifefighter]

That may be the case. But they are still sport arts. If you look at styles like Bak Mei, Hung Gar, or Choy Lay Fut, they are designed to kill and cripple your opponent.

See the original Judo vs. Jujutsu challenge matches in the 1800's, the Gracie challenge matches in the 60's, 70's, and 80's, and the first few UFC's to see how all the "killing and crippling" works out for those guys.

[The Xia]

See the original Judo vs. Jujutsu challenge matches in the 1800's, the Gracie challenge matches in the 60's, 70's, and 80's, and the first few UFC's to see how all the "killing and crippling" works out for those guys.
None of those matches disprove what I said.

Most TMA training is pretending to be geared towards reality. In actuality, the TMA guys aren't fighting on the streets in "reality" situations any more than any sport person is... probably less, as a matter of fact.
Real TMA (trained properly) is geared towards reality. You seem to be confusing properly-trained, legit TMA with B.S.. :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

However, The Real Issue Is This............if Tcma Trained The Way We Should Have....long Ago..........then Mma Would Be Filled With All Types Of Tcma Fighters. Real Tcma Fighters Realize That More Than 50&#37; Of Our Gung Fu Gets Thrown Out For Being Non Effective In Today's World.

Which would include the dumbazzz forearm strikes.

[The Xia]

I only add that, because it works for Chai, doesn't mean much.
Many elite level athletes sucseed IN SPITE of what they do, NOT because of it.
The training regiments I've seen from elite level athletes look sound to me. And I see the value in what Chai is doing.

And the Tid Sin Kuen, like its very basic off-shot, Sanchin is not your typical form.
It address specific attributes in a specific way, its a "freak" in terms of forms.
Plenty of styles have "freak" forms, as you put it. To my knowledge, Sam Chien and its derivative Sanchin are not related to Tid Sin Kuen. Perhaps someone else can elaborate on the history. I wouldn't call them "very basic" either.

[Knifefighter]

IMAGINE WHAT OUR GUNG FU WORLD WOULD BE LIKE IF WE CUT OUT THE BULLSHEET AND FILLED IT WITH SOME GOOD SHEET. SPEAKING ABOUT "FORMS" NOW IS LIKE WHAT POINT FIGHTING IS TO MMA. IMO, GUNG FU PEOPLE WOULD ROCK MMA'S WORLD IF WE WERE TO TRAIN LIKE THEM. TYPICALLY "WE" KNOW WHAT WORLKS FOR US......THEY DON'T. IMO, IF WE TRAINED MORE LIKE THEM.......IT WOULD BE GUNG FU PEOPLE GETTING ALL THE FAME.

WHY DO I SAY SO? BECAUSE TCMA HAS FAR MORE STRIKES, DEFENSE AND OFFENSE RELATED MATERIAL. .

The only people who would be getting their worlds rocked would be the TMA people who would first get killed by trying to use their extraneous "extra" material and would then have to change their thinking and training to incorporate the real techniques that anyone who fights agaisnt skilled, resisting opponents uses.


THE REASON WHY WE'RE NOT AS GOOD AS MMA RIGHT NOW.......IT'S CAUSE WE DON'T TRAIN LIKE THEM. ONCE AGAIN, IMAGINE IF WE BEGAN SERIOUSLY TRAINING LIKE THEM (BUT STAYING TRADITIONAL) DO WHAT THEY DO, THEN ADD IN OUR OWN INGREDIENTS TO THE POT..............OH,,,,,,EXPLOSIVE!!!!!

WHEN CLF CAN GO IN AND JUST DOMINATE "EVERY" VENUE LEADING UP TO MMA, WE WOULD BE READY TO HIT THAT CIRCUIT WITH THE KNOWLEDGE THAT OUR FIGHTERS "ARE" READY.

So, it should be a simple matter for you to take six months or so and get out there and "dominate" the local MMA venue, right? Will you be starting soon?

[Knifefighter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA6s27K0SMI

That's Ramon Dekkers teaching Muay Thai at a CLF school, which is exactly what TMA's would need in order to be competitive in MMA (plus training in BJJ, Sambo, and/or sub-wrestling).

[Knifefighter]

Personally, i would love to see the big arm swings of CLF that i have seen on youtube. I think they would do well at UFC/Pride, etc. an example comes in this video I found on youtube during the challenge match at the end:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV3rrxyoHhk

There is a reason that untrained school kids fight just like that... with windmilling forearm strikes.

And there is a reason that seasoned, trained fighters don't fight like that.

[Knifefighter]

Traditional Chinese Martial arts, ALL of them, are based on being AMBUSHED.

LOL @ thinking it is easier to defend against an ambush than it is to square off with someone knowing you are going to fight him.



I really think most people today don't know what forms really are and what they are for.

Forms are for making people who don't want to do what it really takes to know how to fight think they know how to fight.

[Knifefighter]

For example, once you make riding a bike second nature, you start to be a daredevil with it, popping wheelies, doing jumps, spins, etc, you play with what you can do now

Trying to learn fighting from performing forms is like trying to ride a bike by sitting on a seat posted on a stationary platform and moving your legs around in circles in the air. If people tried to learn to ride a bike the way many people practice forms to learn fighting, they would never learn to ride in the first place.

[nospam]

Knifefighter - sounds like you are bored and trolling the Southern Chinese Kung Fu forum.

nospam
:cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

The training regiments I've seen from elite level athletes look sound to me. And I see the value in what Chai is doing.

Plenty of styles have "freak" forms, as you put it. To my knowledge, Sam Chien and its derivative Sanchin are not related to Tid Sin Kuen. Perhaps someone else can elaborate on the history. I wouldn't call them "very basic" either.

Don not follow the regimes of elite athletes unless YOU are one.

And Sanchin breathing patterns are very basic compared to the Iron Wire ones.
I have done both.
As for the "relation", they are both, in a nutshell, dynamic tension internal exercises.
Oversimplified? Yes.

[TenTigers]

there are Non-Wong Fei-Hung Hung Kuen systems that have saamjien tiet sien kuen. One form.
Old Hung Kuen, before the changes made by Wong Fei-Hung was much closer to Hakka Kuen-narrow horse,elbows in, close,short bridge infighting. Leung Guan, the creator of Tiet Sien Kuen, taught his technique to Wong Fei-Hung, who adapted it to fit his version of Hung Kuen. In addition, It was not called Tiet Sien Kuen until later. The two forms may not be quite as separate as one might think.
sorry for the hijack
many use TSK for "iron body" training, and you being from Kyokushin, are definately familiar with this same concept being used in your sanchin kata. Heck, if it weren't for sanchin,we wouldn't have been able to do hard contact bare knuckle fighting within six months, right?

[hskwarrior]

knifefighter really does doesn't he?

dumbazz forerams strikes. LMAO:rolleyes:

he's so funny!!!!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

there are Non-Wong Fei-Hung Hung Kuen systems that have saamjien tiet sien kuen. One form.
Old Hung Kuen, before the changes made by Wong Fei-Hung was much closer to Hakka Kuen-narrow horse,elbows in, close,short bridge infighting. Leung Guan, the creator of Tiet Sien Kuen, taught his technique to Wong Fei-Hung, who adapted it to fit his version of Hung Kuen. In addition, It was not called Tiet Sien Kuen until later. The two forms may not be quite as separate as one might think.
sorry for the hijack
many use TSK for "iron body" training, and you being from Kyokushin, are definately familiar with this same concept being used in your sanchin kata. Heck, if it weren't for sanchin,we wouldn't have been able to do hard contact bare knuckle fighting within six months, right?


Well, we could, it just wouldn't be much fun.

[SevenStar]

Other then some exceptions here and there, top MMA guys get their material from BJJ, Judo, Sambo, Wrestling, Boxing, Muai Thai, and Kickboxing. And nowadays, there are MMA schools that teach “MMA”. And whenever I see such a school, the material comes from those styles. Therefore, I call MMA a style as well as a format.

people teaching at these schools typically have a base style as well, IME. it's an mma school, but the guy is a wrestler who also teaches the thai boxing he's learned. Consequently, you are getting in depth knowledge in at least one style. And as for the bits and pieces, it actually wouldn't matter - as long as you are getting sound basics to train, you are better off than most.


As for San Shou, you do have TCMA competing in it but you also have people from Muay Thai and other styles in the mix. And there are fighters who call what they practice “San Shou” and “San Da”. I sometimes see some TCMA translating into it (usually in the the kicking) but more often then not it looks like Kickboxing to me.

because it's a venue, not a style. and those teaching it as a "style" have a base in some style, as I mentioned before. As for looking like kickboxing, it's because you fight with basics and the basics across many styles look similar.


It’s still him who decided to go to the bad coach with the bad training.


you can't really put that on the student. Someone brand new to MA has no clue what to look for.

[SevenStar]

That depends on what your goals are.

as you know, we are speaking in the context of fighting.


Generally, I see shadowboxing being done freestyle. However, I see different set combos thrown in there.

doesn't matter. shadow boxing itself is not set. You don't see set combos per se, you see people's preferences. a person who likes to jab / cross / hook may use that a lot in their shadowboxing. someone who doesn't like that combo as much won't use it as much. I like to hook off the jab; you will see me do that a lot. it's just preference.


That's simply not true. You won't get the benefits of Tid Sin Kuen, for example, from shadowboxing and drilling.

once again, we are speaking from the context of fighting.


If it works for him, who cares what some posters on an internet forum say about it?

it's not about it working for him, it's about testing. learning the combo is something he requires for his certifications. in a fight, you aren't going to have a 17 technique combo like that, which he knows. at the next level certification, the pad holder can strike back.

[SevenStar]

nah i know about muay thai kicks with the jump kicks and that...thai's are bhuddist and i'm noticing any art bhuddists touch be mad complex...so i hear muay thai became a sport in 1920, and they use similar punches as western boxers, they just use more compact motions as the stance is more upright...what did they do before they saw white people boxing?...did the thai's adopt say a shaolin type front stance or?.


actually, it was regional. remember the streetfighter games? adon had a traditional muay chaiya stance - it was southern. the boxing stance used today is actually pretty similar to the stance that was used in the central regions. Punching was mainly straight punching, not a lot in the way of hooks and uppercuts, though they did train them.

[SevenStar]

Real TMA (trained properly) is geared towards reality. You seem to be confusing properly-trained, legit TMA with B.S.. :rolleyes:

that's not his point. How often are you guys fighting in reality? what are you measuring reality against - whose perception? How often do they fight in the street? That's what he's getting at. how is your training more street effective than his? how often do you test it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

In regards to the dumb forearm smashes crack:

http://www.theultimatefighter.tv/ep06.html

"...Once the bell rings though, Geraghty didn’t even have a chance to get his gameplan going as Lauzon slammed him to the canvas and started to unleash forearms with bad intentions. One appeared to knock Geraghty out for a second, but before the finisher could be released, Geraghty moved out of the way and made it back to his feet. Lauzon was not to be denied though, and after jumping on his opponent’s back, he sunk in a rear naked choke that produced a tap out and Team Penn’s first win of the season. "

I guess they are ok for MMA...

[The Xia]

people teaching at these schools typically have a base style as well, IME. it's an mma school, but the guy is a wrestler who also teaches the thai boxing he's learned. Consequently, you are getting in depth knowledge in at least one style. And as for the bits and pieces, it actually wouldn't matter - as long as you are getting sound basics to train, you are better off than most.
Whether the teacher is better at Wrestling or Muay Thai doesn’t change that he is teaching MMA. Actually, most MMA fighters I’ve seen draw from the arts I mentioned, but have one specialty (usually grappling).

because it's a venue, not a style. and those teaching it as a "style" have a base in some style, as I mentioned before. As for looking like kickboxing, it's because you fight with basics and the basics across many styles look similar.
The “basics” part is true in certain instances and not in others. For example, many styles have similar footwork, concepts, and even share techniques. But OTOH, a good Bak Mei fighter will not look the same as a good Bak Siu Lam fighter.

you can't really put that on the student. Someone brand new to MA has no clue what to look for.
He could do research.

as you know, we are speaking in the context of fighting.
I’ll expand my statement. It depends on what goals you have as a fighter.

doesn't matter. shadow boxing itself is not set. You don't see set combos per se, you see people's preferences. a person who likes to jab / cross / hook may use that a lot in their shadowboxing. someone who doesn't like that combo as much won't use it as much. I like to hook off the jab; you will see me do that a lot. it's just preference.
Nevertheless, hook/jab and jab/cross/hook are still set combos.

once again, we are speaking from the context of fighting.
Tid Sin Kuen does have benefits for fighting. TenTigers just mentioned its use as Iron Body training.

it's not about it working for him, it's about testing. learning the combo is something he requires for his certifications. in a fight, you aren't going to have a 17 technique combo like that, which he knows. at the next level certification, the pad holder can strike back.
The 17 technique combo allows him to practice a variety of punches within a given time period.

that's not his point. How often are you guys fighting in reality? what are you measuring reality against - whose perception? How often do they fight in the street? That's what he's getting at. how is your training more street effective than his? how often do you test it?
It’s been said over and over, good training does not consist of only conditioning and forms, lots of drilling is vital. Sparring also helps.

[The Xia]

Don not follow the regimes of elite athletes unless YOU are one.
I disagree with that. If you are physically able and have the time, what’s stopping you?

And Sanchin breathing patterns are very basic compared to the Iron Wire ones.
I have done both.
As for the "relation", they are both, in a nutshell, dynamic tension internal exercises.
Oversimplified? Yes.
A bunch of Kung Fu styles have a Sam Chien form, and they vary from each other. And a bunch of Karate styles have a Sanchin form, and they also vary from each other. Different variations of the form have different hand-postures, breathing, footwork, and emphasize different things.

there are Non-Wong Fei-Hung Hung Kuen systems that have saamjien tiet sien kuen. One form.
Old Hung Kuen, before the changes made by Wong Fei-Hung was much closer to Hakka Kuen-narrow horse,elbows in, close,short bridge infighting. Leung Guan, the creator of Tiet Sien Kuen, taught his technique to Wong Fei-Hung, who adapted it to fit his version of Hung Kuen. In addition, It was not called Tiet Sien Kuen until later. The two forms may not be quite as separate as one might think.
sorry for the hijack
Very interesting. Have you seen the Sam Chien Tid Sin Kuen?

[Knifefighter]

In regards to the dumb forearm smashes crack:

http://www.theultimatefighter.tv/ep06.html

"...Once the bell rings though, Geraghty didn’t even have a chance to get his gameplan going as Lauzon slammed him to the canvas and started to unleash forearms with bad intentions. One appeared to knock Geraghty out for a second, but before the finisher could be released, Geraghty moved out of the way and made it back to his feet. Lauzon was not to be denied though, and after jumping on his opponent’s back, he sunk in a rear naked choke that produced a tap out and Team Penn’s first win of the season. "

I guess they are ok for MMA...

Landing a forearm strike in the context of being on the ground is completely different than flailing around with windmill punches in a standing exchange as was shown in that CLF video... again there is a reason that experienced, trained fighters don't fight that way.

[The Xia]

Landing a forearm strike in the context of being on the ground is completely different than flailing around with windmill punches in a standing exchange as was shown in that CLF video... again there is a reason that experienced, trained fighters don't fight that way.
Experienced, trained fighters disintegrate their opponents with beams of chi from their eyes!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Landing a forearm strike in the context of being on the ground is completely different than flailing around with windmill punches in a standing exchange as was shown in that CLF video... again there is a reason that experienced, trained fighters don't fight that way.

Agreed, and if you stated it that way it would have been much better.

[The Xia]

sitting on a seat posted on a stationary platform and moving your legs around in circles in the air.
Who taught you the secret Shaolin Ninja training method for learning how to fly?!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I disagree with that. If you are physically able and have the time, what’s stopping you?

A bunch of Kung Fu styles have a Sam Chien form, and they vary from each other. And a bunch of Karate styles have a Sanchin form, and they also vary from each other. Different variations of the form have different hand-postures, breathing, footwork, and emphasize different things.

Very interesting. Have you seen the Sam Chien Tid Sin Kuen?

You disagree that unless you are a an elite level ( top 1%) athlete you shouldn't train that way?
Why? you thinK TIME is the factor ??
That is a whole other thread....

Not sure what your point about sanchin was...

[The Xia]

You disagree that unless you are a an elite level ( top 1&#37;) athlete you shouldn't train that way?
Yes, I do. Why place limits on yourself?

Not sure what your point about sanchin was...
I'm illustrating the diversity of the form. Because there are so many versions of it, I wouldn't paint it with such a broad stroke. :)

[bredmond812]

RE: training like top 1% athletes


Yes, I do. Why place limits on yourself?

I place limits on myself. For example, top athletes need more calories and have other generally higher nutritional needs. Studies have showed that high calories lead to earlier death. Unless you are a professional, then there is no point in taking in all those extra calories. Furthermore, If you have the time to train like a professional athlete, then you probably are one. Otherwise, the rest of us have day jobs. This is just an example. I know i am leaving something out in my example, but i hope my point comes across.

B Red

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, I do. Why place limits on yourself?

I'm illustrating the diversity of the form. Because there are so many versions of it, I wouldn't paint it with such a broad stroke. :)


Limits are already there, be they genetic or environmentally imposed, if you are unaware of why the elite are the elite and what makes them elite you shoudl rread up on that.

I have seen pretty much all the versions of Sanchin, okinawan and japanese and granted I have only seen 4 versions of Sam jin and all of them the southern white crane variety, the common core is there, as it should be.

[The Xia]

I place limits on myself. For example, top athletes need more calories and have other generally higher nutritional needs. Studies have showed that high calories lead to earlier death. Unless you are a professional, then there is no point in taking in all those extra calories.
I'd guess that those studies were on obese people with high caloric intake, not elite level athletes. Plenty of elite level athletes live long lives. Or how's about we bring this home, plenty of high level martial artists live long lives. And they get where they are by training hard. And training is healthy. Martial arts can contribute to long life.

Unless you are a professional, then there is no point in taking in all those extra calories. Furthermore, If you have the time to train like a professional athlete, then you probably are one. Otherwise, the rest of us have day jobs. This is just an example. I know i am leaving something out in my example, but i hope my point comes across.
I agree that jobs and other such things take up time. But most people I know that complain about lack of time have more of it then they would have others believe.

[The Xia]

Limits are already there, be they genetic or environmentally imposed, if you are unaware of why the elite are the elite and what makes them elite you shoudl rread up on that.
Even if someone does not have the talent that elite level athletes do (and will therefore not achieve the same level of proficiency in the given sport), the training regiment can still be followed.

I have seen pretty much all the versions of Sanchin, okinawan and japanese and granted I have only seen 4 versions of Sam jin and all of them the southern white crane variety, the common core is there, as it should be.
Agreed. But I feel that the form gradually deepens with training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Even if someone does not have the talent that elite level athletes do (and will therefore not achieve the same level of proficiency in the given sport), the training regiment can still be followed.

Agreed. But I feel that as you continue to practice the form, it gradually becomes “deeper”.

If we take Strength training as an example and regard the typical routine of an elite level ST athlete, would you follow it?

Agreed that sanchin has more to offer than meets the eye, but compared to the iron wire, ALL forms of sanchin are basic.

Basic is NOT a bad thing however, perhaps I should have stated that in the beginning.

[SevenStar]

Whether the teacher is better at Wrestling or Muay Thai doesn’t change that he is teaching MMA. Actually, most MMA fighters I’ve seen draw from the arts I mentioned, but have one specialty (usually grappling).

he is not teaching the mma style - he is teaching (in this case) wrestling and muay thai - his mma format. You can't call someting with no defined style set a style. it is a format which is followed - grappling and striking. how you achieve that format is up to you.


The “basics” part is true in certain instances and not in others. For example, many styles have similar footwork, concepts, and even share techniques. But OTOH, a good Bak Mei fighter will not look the same as a good Bak Siu Lam fighter.

it's true in instances where the focus is similar. bak sil lum and western boxing, for example. judo and shuai chiao, etc. there are a few exceptions to this rule, but tey will still have a similar principle behind the strike (arcing, thrusting, etc) even if it looks somewhat different.


He could do research.

get real. How many people do that?


I’ll expand my statement. It depends on what goals you have as a fighter.

if you are a fighter, your goal is to fight. you do not need forms for that.


Nevertheless, hook/jab and jab/cross/hook are still set combos.

no, it's not. it is a commonly used combo because it works and it's easy. nowhere will you find anything saying "In boxing, you HAVE to throw the jab/cross/hook or you aren't really boxing"


Tid Sin Kuen does have benefits for fighting. TenTigers just mentioned its use as Iron Body training.

it's not necessary though. if it was, fighters from all disciplines would have to do it as well. sparring is it's own iron body training.


The 17 technique combo allows him to practice a variety of punches within a given time period.

which has zero relevance to fighting, first of all. second, it's not 17 strikes - there is some defense in there. Like I said, it's like a pre-cursor to sparring.


It’s been said over and over, good training does not consist of only conditioning and forms, lots of drilling is vital. Sparring also helps.

drilling against what? if you aren't doing all of your techniques full force, including eye gouging, pressure points, hair pulling and whatever else you do, what in the world makes you think it's any more street ready than what a sport guy is doing? the comfort of the kwoon is not a simulation of the street.

[xmma]

Personally, i would love to see the big arm swings of CLF that i have seen on youtube. I think they would do well at UFC/Pride, etc. an example comes in this video I found on youtube during the challenge match at the end:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV3rrxyoHhk

B Redmond


There is a reason that untrained school kids fight just like that... with windmilling forearm strikes.

And there is a reason that seasoned, trained fighters don't fight like that.

so ur sayin laceys arent "seasoned, trained fighters" then.

[SevenStar]

I disagree with that. If you are physically able and have the time, what’s stopping you?


Do YOU train like an elite level athlete?

[The Xia]

If we take Strength training as an example and regard the typical routine of an elite level ST athlete, would you follow it?
What is an ST athlete? :confused:

Agreed that sanchin has more to offer than meets the eye, but compared to the iron wire, ALL forms of sanchin are basic.

Basic is NOT a bad thing however, perhaps I should have stated that in the beginning.
I agree that "basic" is not a bad thing. After all, "advanced" is built on "basic". But let’s be more specific in comparing the forms (I find this to be a very interesting topic). :)
In fact, I'm going to start a thread on it.
Iron Wire and Sam Chien/Sanchin both train core concepts and provide conditioning appropriate to their given styles. The breathing in both Sam Chien/Sanchin and Tid Sin Kuen are factors in locking the body in a certain way. What I see that sets Tid Sin Kuen apart, besides the aforementioned aspects, are the different sounds and breathing that correspond to specific organs. I welcome others to add to or comment on what I said.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What is an ST athlete? :confused:

I agree that Basic is not a bad thing. After all, "advanced" is built on "basic". But let’s be more specific in comparing the forms (I find this to be a very interesting topic). :)
Iron Wire and Sam Chien/Sanchin both train core concepts and provide conditioning appropriate to their given styles. The breathing in both Sam Chien/Sanchin and Tid Sin Kuen are factors in locking the body in a certain way. What I see that sets Tid Sin Kuen apart, besides the aforementioned aspects, are the different sounds and breathing that correspond to specific organs.

ST= Strength Training.

The different breathing is what makes the iron wire so unique, that and its LONG ASS duration !
Don't get me started on the sound-organ thing, I have my doubts about that.
I have applied some of the breathing patterns from the Iron Wire to Sanchin and its been quite the difference.

[The Xia]

ST= Strength Training.
Then I'd say that someone can, if he is able, has the time, and wants to.

The different breathing is what makes the iron wire so unique, that and its LONG ASS duration !
Don't get me started on the sound-organ thing, I have my doubts about that.
I have applied some of the breathing patterns from the Iron Wire to Sanchin and its been quite the difference.
I have not seen a Sam Chien/Sanchin form as long as the Tid Sin Kuen and the breathing is different (and the sounds are part of that equation). There is reason why Tid Sin Kuen is taught after the practitioner has a solid grasp of Hung Kuen. Why do you doubt the "sound-organ thing"? :confused:
Maybe we should continue this discussion in my newly created thread on the topic. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Then I'd say that someone can, if he is able, has the time, and wants to.

Then you would think that ANYONE, withing the context that you stated, can be an elite level athlete, and that is just not so.

Of course the "if he is able" part leaves for a huge gray area, doesn't it?

[The Xia]

Then you would think that ANYONE, withing the context that you stated, can be an elite level athlete, and that is just not so.

Of course the "if he is able" part leaves for a huge gray area, doesn't it?
I didn't mean for "if he is able" to be a gray area, I'm using "able" to mean physically capable of performing the exercises.
Within the context I stated, anyone cannot be an elite level athlete. That's where talent and physical attributes come in. ;)

[The Xia]

he is not teaching the mma style - he is teaching (in this case) wrestling and muay thai - his mma format. You can't call someting with no defined style set a style. it is a format which is followed - grappling and striking. how you achieve that format is up to you.
If the specific techniques and concepts he trains are almost universally used by MMA guys, then how is what he is doing not MMA?

it's true in instances where the focus is similar. bak sil lum and western boxing, for example. judo and shuai chiao, etc. there are a few exceptions to this rule, but tey will still have a similar principle behind the strike (arcing, thrusting, etc) even if it looks somewhat different.
The structure, body mechanics, concepts, strategies, breathing, techniques, stancework, and Jing are where styles differ from one another. The similarities you mentioned (arcing, thrusting) are merely paths of movement that are done differently from style to style. And I wouldn’t say Bak Siu Lam has a similar focus to Western Boxing.

get real. How many people do that?
Then being fooled is partly their doing.

if you are a fighter, your goal is to fight. you do not need forms for that.
It depends on what kind of fighter you want to be.

no, it's not. it is a commonly used combo because it works and it's easy. nowhere will you find anything saying "In boxing, you HAVE to throw the jab/cross/hook or you aren't really boxing"
I don’t see anyone here saying that you have to use a set of techniques in the exact same order or way they are done in the respective form either.

it's not necessary though. if it was, fighters from all disciplines would have to do it as well. sparring is it's own iron body training.
Once again, it depends on what kind of fighter you want to be. And sparring is not the same as Iron Body.

which has zero relevance to fighting, first of all. second, it's not 17 strikes - there is some defense in there. Like I said, it's like a pre-cursor to sparring.
Then it allows him to practice 17 techniques within a given time period

drilling against what? if you aren't doing all of your techniques full force, including eye gouging, pressure points, hair pulling and whatever else you do, what in the world makes you think it's any more street ready than what a sport guy is doing? the comfort of the kwoon is not a simulation of the street.
Drilling can be done full-force. For example, if someone misses a block, he gets hit hard. Injuries can occur. The way to safeguard against it is to build up to full-force by tailoring the drill to the abilities of the people doing it. As they get better, the level of force increases. OTOH, some schools are known to “throw” new students “to the lions”. But of course, this opens the doors to lots of injuries.

Do YOU train like an elite level athlete?
That’s irrelevant. IMO, internet machismo and training claims make for lousy online debate. This is because training claims can be fabricated and internet machismo has nothing to do with the topic at hand (unless the topic is or is related to internet machismo lol).

[SevenStar]

If the specific techniques and concepts he trains are almost universally used by MMA guys, then how is what he is doing not MMA?

yes - it's mma formatted training.


The structure, body mechanics, concepts, strategies, breathing, techniques, stancework, and Jing are where styles differ from one another.

not really. you can find pushing, yielding, listening, borrowing, exploding and many others in any judo class.


The similarities you mentioned (arcing, thrusting) are merely paths of movement that are done differently from style to style.

precisely. and this is universal, as we can only move so many ways.


And I wouldn’t say Bak Siu Lam has a similar focus to Western Boxing.

Nor would I actually, but their basic techniques are similar, as they are both (depending on your lineage) striking oriented arts. their basic strikes and kicks don't look altogether different.


Then being fooled is partly their doing.
how would they know what to base said research on?


It depends on what kind of fighter you want to be.

fine, I'll bite - what kind of fighter do you think needs forms training?


I don’t see anyone here saying that you have to use a set of techniques in the exact same order or way they are done in the respective form either.

that was never part of any point made here. those techniques do not constitue a form - that was the argument. neither shadowboxing nor the combinations used within are forms.


Once again, it depends on what kind of fighter you want to be. And sparring is not the same as Iron Body.

and hitting a bag is not the same as iron palm. But doing those eliminates the need for the other two, which are not necessary for fighting.


Drilling can be done full-force. For example, if someone misses a block, he gets hit hard. Injuries can occur. The way to safeguard against it is to build up to full-force by tailoring the drill to the abilities of the people doing it. As they get better, the level of force increases. OTOH, some schools are known to “throw” new students “to the lions”. But of course, this opens the doors to lots of injuries.

nope, doesn't cut it. How can you be sure that what you are training really is tailored to the street? drilling is fine as a supplement - sport guys do it to, and probably more realistically - but tma guys here always tend to draw a line between sport training and "reality" training.


That’s irrelevant. IMO, internet machismo and training claims make for lousy online debate. This is because training claims can be fabricated and internet machismo has nothing to do with the topic at hand (unless the topic is or is related to internet machismo lol).

lol, I figured as much. I am asking because I want to know, not for this debate. I'm sure you wouldn't fabricate your claim.

[The Xia]

yes - it's mma formatted training.
So we agree on this?

not really. you can find pushing, yielding, listening, borrowing, exploding and many others in any judo class.
But they are different concepts of pushing, yielding, listening, borrowing, and exploding then found in many other styles. However, related styles share some concepts. For example, BJJ and Judo.

precisely. and this is universal, as we can only move so many ways.
Well, the direction may be the same, but techniques vary. For example, Choy Lay Fut’s chop choi and Western Boxing’s straight punch go in the same direction, but they are different techniques.

Nor would I actually, but their basic techniques are similar, as they are both (depending on your lineage) striking oriented arts. their basic strikes and kicks don't look altogether different.
The whirling, longarm punches of Bak Siu Lam are different then the punches in Western Boxing. And kicks in Western Boxing?

how would they know what to base said research on?
Delve into the subject.

fine, I'll bite - what kind of fighter do you think needs forms training?
Any fighter that wants to completely learn a style that has forms.

that was never part of any point made here. those techniques do not constitue a form - that was the argument. neither shadowboxing nor the combinations used within are forms.
I consider them to be short forms.

and hitting a bag is not the same as iron palm. But doing those eliminates the need for the other two, which are not necessary for fighting.
Not sure what you are saying here. :confused:

nope, doesn't cut it. How can you be sure that what you are training really is tailored to the street? drilling is fine as a supplement - sport guys do it to, and probably more realistically - but tma guys here always tend to draw a line between sport training and "reality" training.
If the drilling is full-contact, how is it not realistic?

[SevenStar]

So we agree on this?

no. I don't agree that it's a style. it's multiple styles taught in mma format.


But they are different concepts of pushing, yielding, listening, borrowing, and exploding then found in many other styles. However, related styles share some concepts. For example, BJJ and Judo.

really? I once compared techniques with a shuai chiao / taiji guy. I showed him a particular kick defense, and he said "hey, in taiji we call that borrowing." we continued to compare and continued to find such similarities. there was also a cma on this forum who said you can see peng in any judoka.


The whirling, longarm punches of Bak Siu Lam are different then the punches in Western Boxing. And kicks in Western Boxing?

I was talking punches, but you can use kickboxing. not all northern shaolin strikes whirl. they have straight punches equivalent to the jab and cross. boxing and kickboxing have hooks, haymakers and overhands - whirling punches. look at the vid fu pow (clf) posted and that of several other san shou guys on the net. most of what you see looks like kickboxing. coincidence?


Delve into the subject.

once again, that won't happen. but this has gone far past the original topic - it's coaching and training methods moreso than the student.


Any fighter that wants to completely learn a style that has forms.

you're reaching. he still doesn't need the forms to fight, he merely needs to learn the forms because his style required it.


I consider them to be short forms.

maybe, but that doesn't make them forms.


If the drilling is full-contact, how is it not realistic?

you guys constantly talk about street training and how what sport guys train is not street effective. then your response to what makes it street effective is that you drill?

[The Xia]

no. I don't agree that it's a style. it's multiple styles taught in mma format.
The combined material makes up the style of MMA, which includes the format it’s taught in.

really? I once compared techniques with a shuai chiao / taiji guy. I showed him a particular kick defense, and he said "hey, in taiji we call that borrowing." we continued to compare and continued to find such similarities. there was also a cma on this forum who said you can see peng in any judoka.
Those things will be found across different styles. But how they are used varies. For example, I can’t think of a style that does not have yielding. But how it’s done varies.

I was talking punches, but you can use kickboxing. not all northern shaolin strikes whirl. they have straight punches equivalent to the jab and cross. boxing and kickboxing have hooks, haymakers and overhands - whirling punches. look at the vid fu pow (clf) posted and that of several other san shou guys on the net. most of what you see looks like kickboxing. coincidence?
Here is a Bak Siu Lam set.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8dXWo1MMvo
You feel that the strikes here resemble those of Western Boxing?
Kung Fu in fighting doesn’t look like kickboxing. If someone that does TCMA looks like he is doing Kickboxing, he is either intentionally not using his TCMA (which I think isn’t that common) or is not training TCMA properly. And there is Kung Fu in combat on youtube. Check out Buk Sing videos if you are interested in that.

once again, that won't happen. but this has gone far past the original topic - it's coaching and training methods moreso than the student.
It’s still the student that ultimately decides what coaching and training methods he recieves.

you're reaching. he still doesn't need the forms to fight, he merely needs to learn the forms because his style required it.
I never said that all styles of fighting require forms. But forms are required to be able to fight at the optimum level in many styles. It's already been discussed how forms such as Tid Sin Kuen and Sanchin translate into fighting.

maybe, but that doesn't make them forms.
How did you reach that conclusion?

you guys constantly talk about street training and how what sport guys train is not street effective. then your response to what makes it street effective is that you drill?
It's drilling the way I already described, plus other aspects of training already mentioned.

[Knifefighter]

Here is a Bak Siu Lam set.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8dXWo1MMvo
You feel that the strikes here resemble those of Western Boxing?

They don't, because he isn't fighting. He is doing a demonstration of how a theoretical non-fighter thinks fighting should look like.


Kung Fu in fighting doesn’t look like kickboxing.

It does when people start fighting with it agaisnt quality opponents. That's why San Shou looks similar to kickboxing.


If someone that does TCMA looks like he is doing Kickboxing, he is either intentionally not using his TCMA (which I think isn’t that common) or is not training TCMA properly.

No, it means he has learned what real fighting is.

[MasterKiller]

Check out Buk Sing videos if you are interested in that.

Are you kidding me? That sloppy crap?


Here is a Bak Siu Lam set.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8dXWo1MMvo
You feel that the strikes here resemble those of Western Boxing?

They resemble Western Boxing before gloves were instituted. Most of those long arm strikes are made with the assumption that A) You aren't aiming for the head and B) the other guy wants to stay out of your range..aka...the old way of fighting.

[Knifefighter]

They resemble Western Boxing before gloves were instituted. Most of those long arm strikes are made with the assumption that A) You aren't aiming for the head and B) the other guy wants to stay out of your range..aka...the old way of fighting.

Those strikes look nothing like western boxing, pre or post glove wearing days.

[hskwarrior]

masterkiller....

did you just say that they stuff in the buk sing (choy lee fut) video's is crap?

really?:confused:

[hskwarrior]

masterkiller,

for me, being in a traditionally long arm system for 25 years at least, you do understand that people like choy lee fut students use our long arm stuff very strategically. we wouldn't throw lets say a sow choy while you are fresh and ready to receive it.

but alot of people never see clf full out rage. I know of one story where one of our CLF elders got into a fight with a guy and hit him with a sow-breaking his neck- and the guy died. just one shot to the neck.

but, although this video is played out, it IS a real street fight, and not something at a sporting event. even if it's not the best show of skill, this guy IS a tcma student, used the gung fu he learned REALISTICALLY, and drop his aggressor with ONE long arm technique.

he didn't have to be a mma fighter to do what he did effectively. it reminds me of a group of guys playing sunday football in the local park compared to professional football players. both do the same thing. however one is a professional athlete, the other is your average joe shmo with martial art background.

you got your average run of the mill jogger around the lake......then you have your marathon runners. the difference is the marathon runner has a goal in mind and trains accordingly, while the run of the mill jogger around the lake just enjoys running.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=MmcqIlJuVQg

one problem is....in the ring you get 3-5 minute rounds. out in the street the fight is typically over just as fast as in this clip.


i'm sure kf is going to have something snide to say......he'll have some way to shoot it down......i mean he's become SOOOOOO predictable. so pradictable that i'm sure he'd try to switch up. may be not. but i know he won't say constructive.

sorry. it is what it is.

[Knifefighter]

but, although this video is played out, it IS a real street fight, and not something at a sporting event. even if it's not the best show of skill, this guy IS a tcma student, used the gung fu he learned REALISTICALLY, and drop his aggressor with ONE long arm technique.

Watch both guys. They are both throwing wildly swinging haymakers. The "kung fu" guy happened to land one of his first. If you want to call that realistic fighting, more power to you. However, most kids can fight like that in third grade.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I find the lack of chi in that fight disturbing.

[hskwarrior]

lack of whatever, it WAS a streetfight. the guy was a clown. but with one sow choy he dropped the guy like a sack of potatoes........i like pototoes:D

[hskwarrior]

actually, the way i see it, the kung fu guy used his defense (side step side to side, using his blocks during that melee, he wasn't just swinging wildly, he was covering his bases in protection, and never got hit. however, with a widly thrown sow choy......i'm sure he planned to throw it, sloppy as it was........it still did the job.

that was my point.

and getting the job done in the streets is all that matters.

at least in a mma match, you don't have to worry about being killed in a drive by after kicking that guys arse.

[nospam]

I find the lack of chi in that fight disturbing.


Now that is disturbing :D

nospam
:cool:

[hskwarrior]

im not going to argue with you.......

but answer this........how can you get more real than that? you gave fu pow props for his bull**** match on video.......but you down a real street fight where a kung fu guy, wack or not, used whatever skill he had, and defeated the cholo.

and, i've seen some of the same wild swinging in ufc matches. people throwing a punch and dropping their heads at the same time.....so whats the point in dowing this? so you can have the upper hand here?

[hskwarrior]

no spam......funny:D

[MasterKiller]

masterkiller....

did you just say that they stuff in the buk sing (choy lee fut) video's is crap?

really?:confused:

Are we talking about this video?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kV3rrxyoHhk

The forms are tight.

The fighting at the end is a mess.

[Knifefighter]

im not going to argue with you.......

but answer this........how can you get more real than that?

If you are using that as a representation of skill, then I was a master of kung fu in third grade.



and, i've seen some of the same wild swinging in ufc matches. people throwing a punch and dropping their heads at the same time....

Really?
Which fights?

[hskwarrior]

i think you do read right?

i said he was weak, a clown. but the reality of it is, what ever he used, was gung fu, and it worked?

where do you find fault in that?

[Knifefighter]

i said he was weak, a clown. but the reality of it is, what ever he used, was gung fu, and it worked?

I did the same thing in third grade... Just because it worked against another clueless third grader doesn't mean it would work against someone with a bit of skill.

[hskwarrior]

masterkiller......i just watched that:D

i did like the spinning backfist that knocked his arse out.

i see.:p

[MasterKiller]

masterkiller......i just watched that:D

i did like the spinning backfist that knocked his arse out.

i see.:p

Yeah, the Buk SIng guy looks good. But the challenger is a joke, so it's hard to judge.

[hskwarrior]

kf.......

of course you did.

[hskwarrior]

mk,

i agree, the buk sing guy was a little out there, open too much, but that spinning backfist is PRICELESS:D .

[hskwarrior]

kf

athough i see the effectiveness of mma, i'm not the biggest fan. i don't keep logs of fights where people have very bad mechanics.

but if you try to tell me it just don't happen in mma, yeah right:rolleyes:

[nospam]

Masterkiller

The fighting of the Buck Sing stylists shown in that video is real. You obviously have a romanticised view of how fighting looks; this is not surprising to me as most do. Maybe you are more familiar with point sparring where one has a safety zone to score a POINT then stop, stand up and walk away.

As hskwarrior has pointed out recently in this thread, the one other video was not a wildly swung wind-mill attack. It was a long arm technique that landed and ended the fight or that round of attacks. It was a real fight with real reactions.

nospam
:cool:

[lkfmdc]

That "fight" :rolleyes: I wouldn't put it up like it is an astounding endorsement of their trmendous fighting ability....

Shane has talked about doing something full contact, even MMA, for years, yet hasn't yet that I am aware of

[Knifefighter]

kf

athough i see the effectiveness of mma, i'm not the biggest fan. i don't keep logs of fights where people have very bad mechanics.

but if you try to tell me it just don't happen in mma, yeah right:rolleyes:

You stated you had seen wild, windmill type punches in the UFC.

Point me to one match that had someone throwing wild haymakers like that in the UFC.

Of course, you might see that kind of punching in a local amateur MMA match in which some kung fu guy enters and has never thrown a real punch before.

[Knifefighter]

The fighting of the Buck Sing stylists shown in that video is real. You obviously have a romanticised view of how fighting looks; this is not surprising to me as most do.

That fight was of two guys throwing the exact same kind of windmill punches... exactly like you will see down at your local elementary school when two third graders go at it.

The guys who have a romanticized view of fighting are those who think that is a valid way of fighting against anyone who has even a smattering of real fight training.

There is a reason that skilled fighters don't fight that way.

[MasterKiller]

The fighting of the Buck Sing stylists shown in that video is real.

It was real. And it was bad. The two are not mutually exclusive, you know.


You obviously have a romanticised view of how fighting looks; this is not surprising to me as most do. Maybe you are more familiar with point sparring where one has a safety zone to score a POINT then stop, stand up and walk away.

I'm familiar with point sparring, but we don't do it in my San Shou class. Or in my submission wrestling class. Or in my MMA class. Maybe you can tell me how those classes aren't real, instead.

[hskwarrior]

mma people including professional boxers have an over the head strike. that very strike is very common in choy lee fut.

however, if you were to watch the fight at the end of the buk sing clip, you would agree that the spinning back fist as it was done by the buk sing guy has never been seen in mma and was not in any way sloppily thrown. very precise. however, the opponent was knocked the f out with it.

shonie carter for one loves the spinning backfist. if he came to clf, he'd get some great pointers at improving it.

[lkfmdc]

My traditinal system, Lama pai, has quite a lot of "windmill" type punching, I also did a little Choy Lay Fut over the years (my teacher did both systems). Does it still influence my fighters? Of course it does, we still do overhands, long hooks, etc

But, as anyone who has trained with me or seen my DVD's can tell you, we do A LOT of straight punching and have a very "tight" boxing structure

There is a time and place for "windmill" punches, but I can tell you that 95% of the people in these sorts of systems do not know what time that is or where the place is.....

[Knifefighter]

mma people including professional boxers have an over the head strike. that very strike is very common in choy lee fut.

however, if you were to watch the fight at the end of the buk sing clip, you would agree that the spinning back fist as it was done by the buk sing guy has never been seen in mma and was not in any way sloppily thrown. very precise. however, the opponent was knocked the f out with it.

shonie carter for one loves the spinning backfist. if he came to clf, he'd get some great pointers at improving it.

Overhand strikes in boxing and MMA are much different than the windmilling, head-back type punching demonstrated in those clips.

As far as the spinning backfist, it can be a good surprise move by someone skilled with it. However, LOL @ a theoretical, non-fighter giving pointers about it to a fighter.

[hskwarrior]

really, if knifefighter fails to see the preciseness of that spinning back fist then we shouldn't be exchanging ideas or our words with him. it falls on deaf ears.

so, on my end. i'm done conversing with him. no matter what, he always has an answer to something.

[lkfmdc]

really, if knifefighter fails to see the preciseness of that spinning back fist then we shouldn't be exchanging ideas or our words with him. it falls on deaf ears.



Sorry, I'm gonna disagree. Spin back fists are thrown all the time in kickboxing, San Da, Thai boxing and MMA. They seldom land. They never land when thrown like it was thrown in the clip.

WHY!

Becuase trained fighters keep their hands up and have tight structure. So you end up hitting the arms, ie doing nothing, but getting tired....

We had a match like this very recently. You can flail at the arms for a few minutes, so what, it doesn't do anything (ie no damage). Then, when you get tired, then what?

[hskwarrior]

of course they are. two are being done with no real gung fu background.

however, all three mentioned will have the very same effect.

[hskwarrior]

ross, tell me where in mma, pride, or anywhere else you saw the exact type of spinning back fist the buk sing guy threw?
exactly how he did it.

[lkfmdc]

are being done with no real gung fu background.



Ah, the deadly kung fu fighter, more skilled and dangerous than pro Muay Thai or MMA fighters :rolleyes:

"we shouldn't be exchanging ideas or our words with him. it falls on deaf ears"

[lkfmdc]

ross, tell me where in mma, pride, or anywhere else you saw the exact type of spinning back fist the buk sing guy threw?
exactly how he did it.

You need to get out more Frank, really, the fresh air will be good for you :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

ross, tell me where in mma, pride, or anywhere else you saw the exact type of spinning back fist the buk sing guy threw?
exactly how he did it.

Of course he was able to land that. The other guy was fighting with the exact same kind of flailing, non covering punches as he was.

[hskwarrior]

that spinning back fist was soooooo foking planned.

its ok, if you don't see it, believe in it. its your right. its all good.

[lkfmdc]

Of course he was able to land that. The other guy was fighting with the exact same kind of flailing, non covering punches as he was.

Or, what I said before.....


Sorry, I'm gonna disagree. Spin back fists are thrown all the time in kickboxing, San Da, Thai boxing and MMA. They seldom land. They never land when thrown like it was thrown in the clip.

WHY!

Becuase trained fighters keep their hands up and have tight structure. So you end up hitting the arms, ie doing nothing, but getting tired....

We had a match like this very recently. You can flail at the arms for a few minutes, so what, it doesn't do anything (ie no damage). Then, when you get tired, then what?

Remember, I've done Lama Pai and Choy Lay Fut, and I also have guys fighting all the time (have to leave in a minute to go to another fight)

[lkfmdc]

that spinning back fist was soooooo foking planned.



You can plan to walk through a concrete wall all day, even for a week, doesn't mean you are going to do it :rolleyes:

He planned to throw a spin back fist, if the kid had any defense at all it would not have landed......

[hskwarrior]

see, ross thinks that if the back fist didn't work, it would have been the end of that. nah, clf people follow up with more until someone drops.

hung sing and buk sing fighters know how to use the gung fu we were taught.

[lkfmdc]

see, ross thinks that if the back fist didn't work, it would have been the end of that. nah, clf people follow up with more until someone drops.

hung sing and buk sing fighters know how to use the gung fu we were taught.

And you're assuming the other side isn't hitting back.....

Like I said, we had a match just like this recently.... after a few minutes, and a few flails, all blocked, the Choy Lay Fut person got tired and got KO'ed.....

That guy was also sure he knew how to use the gung fu he was taught. I guess he was wrong? :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

ross, and now you don't really do clf do you?

from what i hear you abandoned it, and only promote lama, and your sanda.

if you really knew clf ross, then i wouldn't have to explain to you how clf operates. you should already know that. but maybe thats why you abandoned it.

no disrespect intended. don't take it that way. just curious.

[SevenStar]

The combined material makes up the style of MMA, which includes the format it’s taught in.

we will just agree to disagree on this one.


Those things will be found across different styles. But how they are used varies. For example, I can’t think of a style that does not have yielding. But how it’s done varies.

then you agree with my original statement, which was that the principles exist across multiple styles. How each style implements them is irrelevant.


Here is a Bak Siu Lam set.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8dXWo1MMvo
You feel that the strikes here resemble those of Western Boxing?
Kung Fu in fighting doesn’t look like kickboxing. If someone that does TCMA looks like he is doing Kickboxing, he is either intentionally not using his TCMA (which I think isn’t that common) or is not training TCMA properly. And there is Kung Fu in combat on youtube. Check out Buk Sing videos if you are interested in that.{/quote]

I trained in longfist - I know what the sets and strikes look like. The straight punches at the beginning? In a fight and with the hands up, those are akin to the jab and cross. circular, closed fist strikes are akin to hooks, overhands and haymakers. in fighting, it doesn't look like the forms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_rMbvSlv5A&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSweSM5HsYQ&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVs61DqW4MQ&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inTbp3sQWNk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icULvZ95mlM&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrMXhdEqHOw&mode=related&search=

Notice that the most commonly seen strikes in these are the jab, cross, haymaker, front kick, roundhouse and side kick.


[quote]It’s still the student that ultimately decides what coaching and training methods he recieves.

another we will agree to disagree on.


I never said that all styles of fighting require forms. But forms are required to be able to fight at the optimum level in many styles. It's already been discussed how forms such as Tid Sin Kuen and Sanchin translate into fighting.

they aren't necessary to fight at optimum level. Are you REALLY saying that a top notch, high level san shou player won't be as good as he can be if he doesn't know those forms? Let's ask ross if his guys - who are winning titles - train that form.


How did you reach that conclusion?

your opinion that they are forms does not make them forms.


It's drilling the way I already described, plus other aspects of training already mentioned.

in other words, you guys are no more street ready than we are...

[hskwarrior]

i've seen spinning backfist thrown by many mma, and the other side didn't hit right back. danced around and then thrown punches.

typically clf will throw a backfist and then follow up with whatever the moment calls for. what you guys didn't see in all that flailing was the upper cuts, and others. but hey. not my fault.


hsk

[lkfmdc]

ross, and now you don't really do clf do you?

from what i hear you abandoned it, and only promote lama, and your sanda.

if you really knew clf ross, then i wouldn't have to explain to you how clf operates. you should already know that. but maybe thats why you abandoned it.

no disrespect intended. don't take it that way. just curious.

I've done more than enough Choy Lay Fut, perhaps more than you even :rolleyes:

I understand exactly how it works, and how it DOESN'T, like I said, recent match against a Choy Lay Fut guy, was one of the easiest matches to "read" ever.

[Knifefighter]

that spinning back fist was soooooo foking planned.

its ok, if you don't see it, believe in it. its your right. its all good.

It was just as planned as the one at 4:02 that missed. Just because it was planned doesn't make it a decent percentage technique.

[SevenStar]

My traditinal system, Lama pai, has quite a lot of "windmill" type punching, I also did a little Choy Lay Fut over the years (my teacher did both systems). Does it still influence my fighters? Of course it does, we still do overhands, long hooks, etc

But, as anyone who has trained with me or seen my DVD's can tell you, we do A LOT of straight punching and have a very "tight" boxing structure

There is a time and place for "windmill" punches, but I can tell you that 95% of the people in these sorts of systems do not know what time that is or where the place is.....

see? he is correlating his lama pai strikes to boxing strikes, just as I have been doing. It's really not as different as you seem to think.

[hskwarrior]

who was this clf guy? your student? dfw?

who? where is he from?

tell me something about this guy

[lkfmdc]

i've seen spinning backfist thrown by many mma, and the other side didn't hit right back. danced around and then thrown punches.

typically clf will throw a backfist and then follow up with whatever the moment calls for. what you guys didn't see in all that flailing was the upper cuts, and others. but hey. not my fault.


hsk

I could name for you, in Chinese, every technique thrown. I could also point out that against a guy with NO DEFENSE, almost none of them landed :rolleyes:

Against a guy with tight defense, NONE would have landed.

Here's a "Chinese concept" for you Frank, LEAKS, that sort of attack leaves HUGE LEAKS.... which can easily be capitalized on by someone with even basic defense. Again, KO'ing a guy who fights with his hands down, is just as sloppy, has no strategy and probably very little training doesn't prove much

[nospam]

- trained fighters - I think there is a gap in the conversation. Those that are dissing some of the vids keep referring to professional fighters so it sounds. Any professional fights and associations generally have rules and regulations and within same, certain techniques fit better than others.

I'm not going to debate kung fu sux in this or MMAist rule in that. As I see it, 99% of us will never mix it up with a professional fighter - any style. We all practise MAs and most of us think what we do is amazing or the best or more effective. If some are training for professional fights, all the power to you - represent!

As I see it, 'trained fighters', meaning 'professional' competitors getting paid to fight fall into a different league and different category as does the level and type of training they do.

Some of us are arguing about numbers while the other 'side' is arguing about alphabets. Anyways, it's as a forum and ya'll do what ya'll want to do. My momma can still kick your momma's ass!

nospam
:cool:

[Knifefighter]

see, ross thinks that if the back fist didn't work, it would have been the end of that. nah, clf people follow up with more until someone drops.

That's what every fighter does. The difference is that skilled fighters don't swing with wild haymakers and attempt to use valid defensive tactics.

[SevenStar]

You can plan to walk through a concrete wall all day, even for a week, doesn't mean you are going to do it :rolleyes:

He planned to throw a spin back fist, if the kid had any defense at all it would not have landed......

According to quantum physics, you can. :p :D

[Knifefighter]

if you really knew clf ross, then i wouldn't have to explain to you how clf operates. you should already know that. but maybe thats why you abandoned it.


If you were really training skilled fighters, he wouldn't have to be explaining things to you.

[Knifefighter]

what you guys didn't see in all that flailing was the upper cuts,

LOL... you mean those haymakers launched from the floor? Those are hardly uppercuts.

[lkfmdc]

- trained fighters - I think there is a gap in the conversation. Those that are dissing some of the vids keep referring to professional fighters so it sounds.



TRAINED FIGHTER, as in someone trained to fight as opposed to, say, dance :rolleyes:

TRAINED FIGHTERS keep their hands up, had tight structure, pick their shots and set up their shots

Recent match between my student and Choy Lay Fut guy, equal training time, both had no ring fights, in fact, at first everyone thought the CLF guy was winning, because he came out swinging for the fences and throwing a lot of windmill punches. My student just covered up for a round, didn't even try to match strike for strike. He knew, we knew, that if he kept his hands up all the windmill punches in the world wouldn't land and wouldn't matter. Then a simple one/two and it was over....

[Knifefighter]

As I see it, 'trained fighters', meaning 'professional' competitors getting paid to fight fall into a different league and different category as does the level and type of training they do. :

Skilled fighter- can be pro or amateur, or even someone who doesn't compete.

[SevenStar]

i've seen spinning backfist thrown by many mma, and the other side didn't hit right back. danced around and then thrown punches.

typically clf will throw a backfist and then follow up with whatever the moment calls for. what you guys didn't see in all that flailing was the upper cuts, and others. but hey. not my fault.


hsk

genki sudo loves the spinning backfist. This isn't one of his better fights, but check out the spinning backfist at the end. How is this any different from the one in the clf vid?

[nospam]

No you both fail to see my point (probably cuz you have your arms up in guard position all the time so you fail to see what others see) and what you are arguing apparently.

lkfmdc - sounds like you folks train well. I agree with your one comment that swinging arms have their place and time. It doesn't sound like this fellow knew how to use his CLf but I am not here to defend him. I have been in a **** load of tournies and seen my fair shake of kickboxers who stood their ground against asian MAs - some winning some losing. I am usually the first to see fault in others' methods of fighting but it is not to put anyone or their style down, it is to use that litttle bit of knowledge in our training, just as you do with yours as you mix it up with others.

We've fought freestyle karate and kickboxers and we took sum and they gave sum. We've stood toe-to-toe and I can't recall a sinlge one of us being taken down in 1-2 shots. And we all know, sum practitioners are fighters and others, although ya give em props for trying ARE NOT - any style and MA.

By way of your definition, any one I have trained with or trained are TRAINED FIGHTERS cuz we also keep our hands up, we are not tight in structure because our gung fu is dynamic so we flow as needed, and from how we train we do not 'pick our shots but as water flows around a rock, we simply dance a little with our opponent even though we would rather dance a lot, but they usually end up running away after a few moves.

nospam
:cool:

[lkfmdc]

we are not tight in structure because our gung fu is dynamic so we flow as needed,



You might want to consider why every method that fights actively and consistently does not hold this particular world view




we do not 'pick our shots but as water flows around a rock,



see above....





they usually end up running away after a few moves.



If the guys you are fighitng are running away, one wonders what sort of fighters you are facing? :rolleyes:

[nospam]

lkfmdc - that was a lame post. Guess my discussion to you specifically has ended.

nospam
:cool:

[lkfmdc]

lkfmdc - that was a lame post. Guess my discussion to you specifically has ended.



Since your "discussion" was specifically to try and prove something I know to be false, it ended before it began.....

[SevenStar]

we are not tight in structure because our gung fu is dynamic so we flow as needed

how would a tight structure prevent you from being dynamic?

[PangQuan]

its interesing to come and read the last few pages of this discussion....


strange enough to me, it seems like you are all kind of saying the same things, after a fashion.


There is a time and a place for pretty much any technique. most all techniques have a specific design and a specific time and place where that design will fit.

some fighters suck, some dont. thats always going to be a constant.

in what i can assume is that vid of that kid in the red shirt scrapping with that wanna be homie....well.

he obviously has trained somewhere, and to his best ability is trying to utilize what he has learned. you can tell by how he over dramatizes his stances at the beginning. totally un needed. waste of energy. none the less, he is still depending on what he was taught and trying to save his ass in a fight with it.

its also quite obvious this guy is a novice. im sure we can all agree with that. so the techniques that he is trying to employ, part conciously, part subconsiously (assuming he has trained enough to have the memory in his muscles to be like "this is how we punch") are pretty sloppy. he hasnt trained long enough to actually use his art. he can try and push his art out through his limbs and utilize his very finite understanding, but its just not going to work out for him.

this results in tactic flying right out the window. so hes going to just start swinging with all he has. some small percentage of what he is wildly swining with WILL be muscle memory from training.

regardless of the amount, accuracy, effeciency, etc...

so with that vid anyhow, we are seeing the very bottom stages of his training in use.

sure part of it was luck, but all fights carry thier share of luck involved. the other part was that at least he could do what he did because of even the most minute amount of training. he had the confidence to throw his all even if it was slop. at least when he connected he had enough power to result in a KO. at this point, that ko power is probably all his training had to provide him with. very very basic.

basically just a school yard scrap. but a scrap with a winner...

yet, take this element up several notches and you can get someone who will have tact, will have good training habits with years behind him, and will understand when and where to use what.

of course if he steps to me...he better have good knife defense.

and thats the major difference between the ring and the street. you cant slip a blade into the ring.

and sinse i DONT start crap, i am usually prepared to drop any attackers with a weapon. because well, i dont play around, i wont start it, but i sure as hell will finish it.

so i dont really care what style you use unless its utilizing a weapon to attack me. if you dont have a weapon or SUPERIOR weapon defense skills, chances are ill win.

i practice MA cause its fun. i enjoy fighting, but i wont do it pro. not my thing.

I supremely respect sport fighters, fun stuff to watch. real tough guys. just dont expect that because you train hard with good ring tactics you can take some guy with a blade.

i am that guy. and i WILL stab you.

[SevenStar]

meh. I always have my folder on me and usually my knucks made of bulletproof glass - they can get through a metal detector. mma guys carry weapons too.